Why this will be the next Melee(to an extent)

[Splotim]

As someone who's never played melee, I have a question. If you took all the unintentional stuff ( chain grabs, wobbling, wave dashing, ect.) would it still be a fast-paced, hyper-aggressive game? Could it be that melee wasn't designed as a competitive game and it just got lucky on the tech?

Also

I think Sakurai actually was thinking of the competitive crowd when the game was initially released in 3DS/Wii U, but he was much too influenced by hordes of people (at all levels of play, but most notably the lower-level semi-competitive crowd, a.k.a. "scrubs") screaming and yelling like children for nerfs for anything that was remotely "too janky/unfair/cheesy/etc".

Remember that the dev team has access to online records. They know the win rates for every character and maybe even more specific stuff like total damage delt or nairs used per match. Fans may influence the devs a little, but it's not the only thing they see.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Why does Nintendo need any help selling Smash Bros when the numbers for Brawl and 3DS/Wii U are well above Melee's sales numbers?

Let's take a look at this, shall we?

Melee's recorded sales on the Gamecube stand at 7 million copies

Brawl's recorded sales numbers on the Wii stand at 13.25 million copies

Smash Bros for Nintendo 3DS's sales numbers stand at 9 million copies sold

Smash Bros for Wii U's sales numbers stand at 5 million copies sold. The combined numbers for Smash 3DS and Wii U total about 14 million sold.

So, in terms of sales numbers each Smash Bros game(barring the Wii U version) have seen an increase in the total number of copies sold since Melee. Even in the case of the WIi U version, its lower sales can be explained by the fact that the Wii U sold poorly compared to the Gamecube, and the 3DS version likely cannibalized its sales. Smash fans who would normally opt for a Nintendo console to play the latest Smash likely picked the cheaper 3DS version to play Smash 4. That, combined with the 3DS's larger and stronger library likely kept Smash Wii U from reaching its full potential in terms of sales numbers.

But what is the lesson here? That despite Melee's status as the "holy grail" of the series in terms of gameplay, the sales numbers for Smash games following it has in fact increased. Plus, Melee is a nearly 20-year old game. You have an entire generation of gamers who played Brawl or Smash 4 as their first Smash game. To them, those games are just as important to them as Melee is to older fans.

I can already tell the counterargument will be that sales numbers alone don't define the success of a game. Smash for Wii U might have sold more copies, but Melee's presence in tournaments ensures it will get noticed by Nintendo, who have embraced esports in recent years.

That is a fine argument, but it is flawed in many ways. Street Fighter V has been the top game at Evo 2016 and Evo 2017 in terms of entrants and even had the most viewers of any game at Evo in 2017 when the top eight attracted 4.57 million viewers. But despite all this success in esports, Street Fighter V has struggled at retail, with the game barely making it to two million copies sold two years after it was released.

So, while esports are no doubt a large and fairly lucrative market, its still much smaller than the casual market which likely has a good number of players who have never played Melee.

But here's some more food for thought. People often claim that Melee draws in more players at tournaments and is more popular then Smash 4 in that regard.

So, here is the top three games in terms of entrants at Evo 2015 through Evo 2017. Evo 2015 is the first Evo for Smash Bros for Wii U.

First up, here's Evo 2015's top 3 games in terms of entrants.

Ultra Street Fighter IV: 2257

Super Smash Bros for Wii U: 1926

Super Smash Bros Melee: 1869


Here are the numbers for Evo 2016.

Street Fighter V: 5065

Super Smash Bros for Wii U: 2637

Super Smash Bros Melee: 2350


Now, here's the numbers for Evo 2017

Street Fighter V: 2622

Super Smash Bros for Wii U: 1515

Super Smash Bros Melee: 1435

So, what do these numbers tell us? Well, that Street Fighter is without a doubt the king of Evo, but that is irrelevant to this discussion.

For three years in a row, Smash Wii U has attracted more players then Melee has. Now, to be fair to Melee, its numbers are very impressive for an almost 20-year old game that was on a system that was mildly popular at best. It's impressive, no, it's unbelievable that Melee has been able to retain such numbers after so long.

But this also shatters the illusion that Melee draws more players then Smash 4. If anything, Smash 4 should be what Nintendo bases the next Smash Brothers on given it not only has sold more copies when you combine the 3DS and Wii U versions, but Smash Wii U has been only behind Street Fighter three years in a row.

They already have a bigger esports draw then Melee if Evo is anything to go by.

I don't know why people bring up sales; the Wii had a MAJOR install base. Of course Brawl sold more copies than Melee. Smash wasn't nearly as big when Melee came out and its success helped pave the way for the series to be the phenomenon it is today.

The reason Smash 4 is as popular as Melee is because it's the only relevant smash game you can play that isn't Melee. It has newer characters and a shiny coat of paint. If Smash 4 were worse than Brawl it would still be popular because the brand is so strong. Just look at SFV, it's considered by many to be one of, if not the worst, street fighter ever when it comes to gameplay and it's still huge in Esports right now. But not only that Smash 4 was a seemingly open playing field when it came out. I remember big FGC names stating that they would try to compete in Smash 4 when it came out because it seemed like anyone had a chance at being the best at that game. Smash 4 was a lot of people's introduction to the FGC(especially young people who had no real hopes of winning but wanted to experience the tournament atmosphere) and they ended up staying as a result, hence the high numbers. Melee already had its "gods" and was already well established so you're expectations and hopes for winning its tournaments were much lower, which led to slightly less entrants(and Nintendo is aware of this by the way).

You're still ignoring the fact that Melee is doing incredible right now, and if you want to appeal more to the Esports crowd you're going to want to cater to that crowd since Nintendo knows that the people that play Smash 4 are going to migrate to the new game pretty much no matter what, as the sales figures you cited clearly suggest that. They want the Melee crowd(and really every FGC crowd) to move on to their new game, and they're just now starting to figure out how to do that.

 

[R3D3MON]

As someone who's never played melee, I have a question. If you took all the unintentional stuff ( chain grabs, wobbling, wave dashing, ect.) would it still be a fast-paced, hyper-aggressive game? Could it be that melee wasn't designed as a competitive game and it just got lucky on the tech?

Hmm, this really depends since we will never know the devs' exact decisions and mindsets. Things like wave-dashing and l-cancels weren't unintentional, and chain grabs have existed since SSB64 all the way through Brawl, so idk.

 

[Alhobbies440]

As someone who's never played melee, I have a question. If you took all the unintentional stuff ( chain grabs, wobbling, wave dashing, ect.) would it still be a fast-paced, hyper-aggressive game?

Yes because the core physics engine lends itself to being fast-paced and aggressive. Even if the game only had the mechanics of Smash 4(minus air-dodging out of tumble) it would still be more offensive because that engine is so solid.

 

[LancerStaff]

How would you guys feel if there was some less centralizing but easy to execute alternative to wavedashing?

You mean walking? I mean compared to most fighters Smash’s walking speed is complete **** so buffing that would be interesting.

But again I don’t think it’ll happen.

If you honestly believe the balance patches wasn't a nod towards the competitive scene when all the top tiers people complained about got touched than I honestly cannot help you or see the argument for them tweaking characters on multiple patches. Sakurai obviously does care about the competitive scene to some degree regardless on how you perceive it, he even went to a Japan Tournament that had Nairo and Abadango in it and made some sentiments on how it played; those balance patches was a way to communicate to the community for him to say "I hear you". You can argue the effectiveness of his approach to the competitive scene, but to put off balance patches is just ignoring a central part of the equation especially since other "official fighting games" have balance patches too.

Mostly they were nerfing individual tools and not 1v1 strategies...

That and that very tournament made it incredibly obvious he knew absolutely nothing about how the game is played in tournaments

Edit: Alright, let me punch a hole in this “Nintendo is targeting esports” cockamamie.

https://nintendoeverything.com/arms...e-lore-to-tell-esports-future-of-the-ip-more/

Mr. Yabuki said this about Nintendo and eSports:

“As for Nintendo, they are currently still in the phase on looking at how eSports can exist in a Nintendo-like way, so currently they don’t have any plans to use eSports business-wise.”

So ARMS and Splatoon weren’t made with eSports in mind. This isn’t a pattern or the high ups trying to cash in on it. It’s simply the devs making a game they want to make. Making a competition focused game out of Smash is something Sakurai desperately doesn’t want. So there’s no chance that this game will be built for competitive play.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Edit: Alright, let me punch a hole in this “Nintendo is targeting esports” cockamamie.

https://nintendoeverything.com/arms...e-lore-to-tell-esports-future-of-the-ip-more/

Mr. Yabuki said this about Nintendo and eSports:

“As for Nintendo, they are currently still in the phase on looking at how eSports can exist in a Nintendo-like way, so currently they don’t have any plans to use eSports business-wise.”

So ARMS and Splatoon weren’t made with eSports in mind. This isn’t a pattern or the high ups trying to cash in on it. It’s simply the devs making a game they want to make. Making a competition focused game out of Smash is something Sakurai desperately doesn’t want. So there’s no chance that this game will be built for competitive play.

I don't see how this is a cut to my argument because he said Nintendo is still looking for a way to use Esports to help promote their titles. But Nintendo has already sponsored many Esports events in the past, so this guy is clearly talking about the company going in the way of Capcom and having Pro-Tours and such. That's what he meant by "business-wise". Nintendo wants to use Esports as a way to help promote some of their titles without having some of the stigma of the FGC getting associated with them. They have cooperated many times with the smash scene(remember when some of those sponsored smash tournaments would play commercials for Nintendo's other games?). Nintendo clearly has their foot in the door of Esports. They're just trying to formulate a strong business model to capitalize off of Melee's popularity, hence making a game that caters to them.

And lastly it doesn't matter what Sakurai wants. He's not a shareholder, he doesn't finance these games, he's a director(if he's even that on this particular project). Bottom line he has to do what he's told by Nintendo. Before this game Nintendo didn't have any agenda to capitalize off of the Esports crowd but now they do so you can expect some major difference this time around when it comes to gameplay.

 

[LancerStaff]

Handing out controllers and bringing demos to tournaments is totally different from making games to be played in tournaments.

Do you want a flaming dumpster fire of a game? That’s how you get a flaming dumpster fire. I can’t believe anybody would be hoping for executive meddling.

Nintendo has zero history of taking the core of a game and turning it on it’s head for the sake of appealing to a niche group. It’s never happening.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Handing out controllers and bringing demos to tournaments is totally different from making games to be played in tournaments.

Yeah because it's not like Smash 4 isn't played at any tournaments or had balance patches to cater specifically to the competitive crowd.

Do you want a flaming dumpster fire of a game? That’s how you get a flaming dumpster fire. I can’t believe anybody would be hoping for executive meddling.

Now you're really just showing your bias and or ignorance. You're acting like giving a game more competitive depth than Smash 4 and Brawl is going to ruin it. If that were the case Melee would have died a long time ago. The execs aren't sitting down programming the game all day, they lay out the blueprints(as in characters and gameplay focus) and hand them to skilled people like Sakurai to make it work.

Nintendo has zero history of taking the core of a game and turning it on it’s head for the sake of appealing to a niche group. It’s never happening.

Turning it on its head? Really dude? What do you call Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4? Did the balance changes in Smash 4 change its core by nerfing shields and improving DI? Did those changes alienate the casuals? Or how about Melee? Were all 7 million people who bought the game turned off by it having brilliant competitive mechanics? Most casuals aren't even aware that these games can be played at a high level and even more don't care. You must have very little knowledge on how video games work because you can't/refuse to understand that a game can be both competitive and casual at the same time.

 

[LancerStaff]

Yeah because it's not like Smash 4 isn't played at any tournaments or had balance patches to cater specifically to the competitive crowd.

Now you're really just showing your bias and or ignorance. You're acting like giving a game more competitive depth than Smash 4 and Brawl is going to ruin it. If that were the case Melee would have died a long time ago. The execs aren't sitting down programming the game all day, they lay out the blueprints(as in characters and gameplay focus) and hand them to skilled people like Sakurai to make it work.

Turning it on its head? Really dude? What do you call Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4? Did the balance changes in Smash 4 change its core by nerfing shields and improving DI? Did those changes alienate the casuals? Or how about Melee? Were all 7 million people who bought the game turned off by it having brilliant competitive mechanics? Most casuals aren't even aware that these games can be played at a high level and even more don't care. You must have very little knowledge on how video games work because you can't/refuse to understand that a game can be both competitive and casual at the same time.

Smash 4 only had competitively focused balance patches after Sakurai left. I mean the man has only watched like one tournament in his life.

No, forcing somebody to make something they don’t want to is how to make ****ty games. It’s obvious Sakurai wants nothing to do with it, yet here we are with him on Smash again. If they really wanted a competitively focused game they wouldn’t of hired him again. The notion that they would force it on him is absolutely ****ing ridiculous.

Smash is a better game for casuals now. We’re not getting backwards. Smash has always been casual first.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Smash 4 only had competitively focused balance patches after Sakurai left. I mean the man has only watched like one tournament in his life.

No, forcing somebody to make something they don’t want to is how to make ****ty games. It’s obvious Sakurai wants nothing to do with it, yet here we are with him on Smash again. If they really wanted a competitively focused game they wouldn’t of hired him again. The notion that they would force it on him is absolutely ****ing ridiculous.

Smash is a better game for casuals now. We’re not getting backwards. Smash has always been casual first.

Okay dude, you're not giving me any real counter arguments to my OP so I'm not going to reply to you until you do so. I mean Sakurai is not gonna take a check and oversee a game for a franchise he's helmed since the beginning because it's a little more focused on competition? Are you sure you're not just putting yourself into Sakurai's shoes here? C'mon dude grow up.

 

[LancerStaff]

Grow up? I’m not the one basing my entire argument on a rumor and a gigantic assumption.

If you’re expecting a competitive game from the man who opted against ranked modes and patch notes I’m expecting disappointment from you. It’s incredibly unrealistic. It’s the opposite of likely.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Grow up? I’m not the one basing my entire argument on a rumor and a gigantic assumption.

If you’re expecting a competitive game from the man who opted against ranked modes and patch notes I’m expecting disappointment from you. It’s incredibly unrealistic. It’s the opposite of likely.

You're acting as if Sakurai didn't make Smash 4 which he said was a combination of Melee and Brawl. So according to you he went backwards and made Smash Bros worse as a whole because he made it more competitive than Brawl. But I'm not gonna continue this argument anymore.

 

[LancerStaff]

He never said that. He said that it would be in between Melee and Brawl. And by “between” he obviously ment 99% Brawl but with actual hitstun and somewhat higher fall speeds. Which is what Smash 4 is.

Your argument is full of holes.

 

[masterluigi1]

No, they wouldn’t do that. Nintendo execs don’t just butt in and interfere, especially with a veteran developer like Sakurai.

Really, why try and cook the golden goose? Why disturb Sakurai or the game itself?

Why is everyone acting like we know Sakurai is the director? All we know is that hes involved in the game in some way.
I mean his team at sora wasn't even listed as working on the game, it was just hal lab.

 

[LancerStaff]

Why is everyone acting like we know Sakurai is the director? All we know is that hes involved in the game in some way.
I mean his team at sora wasn't even listed as working on the game, it was just hal lab.

Sakurai is the only person we know is working on the game. Considering he’s directed every game so far and has talked about how he needs everything just so for him to approve it, it’s incredibly likely he’s the director again.

Team Sora’s only permanent staff are Sakurai and his wife. Brawl and Kid Icarus had largely different teams from what I remember, and in 4 Namco did the bulk of the work.

Hal is merely being credited for the original game in the copyright notice. They’re not necessarily working on this. In fact I doubt they are.

 

[masterluigi1]

Why does Nintendo need any help selling Smash Bros when the numbers for Brawl and 3DS/Wii U are well above Melee's sales numbers?

Let's take a look at this, shall we?

Melee's recorded sales on the Gamecube stand at 7 million copies

Brawl's recorded sales numbers on the Wii stand at 13.25 million copies

Smash Bros for Nintendo 3DS's sales numbers stand at 9 million copies sold

Smash Bros for Wii U's sales numbers stand at 5 million copies sold. The combined numbers for Smash 3DS and Wii U total about 14 million sold.

So, in terms of sales numbers each Smash Bros game(barring the Wii U version) have seen an increase in the total number of copies sold since Melee. Even in the case of the WIi U version, its lower sales can be explained by the fact that the Wii U sold poorly compared to the Gamecube, and the 3DS version likely cannibalized its sales. Smash fans who would normally opt for a Nintendo console to play the latest Smash likely picked the cheaper 3DS version to play Smash 4. That, combined with the 3DS's larger and stronger library likely kept Smash Wii U from reaching its full potential in terms of sales numbers.

But what is the lesson here? That despite Melee's status as the "holy grail" of the series in terms of gameplay, the sales numbers for Smash games following it has in fact increased. Plus, Melee is a nearly 20-year old game. You have an entire generation of gamers who played Brawl or Smash 4 as their first Smash game. To them, those games are just as important to them as Melee is to older fans.

I can already tell the counterargument will be that sales numbers alone don't define the success of a game. Smash for Wii U might have sold more copies, but Melee's presence in tournaments ensures it will get noticed by Nintendo, who have embraced esports in recent years.

That is a fine argument, but it is flawed in many ways. Street Fighter V has been the top game at Evo 2016 and Evo 2017 in terms of entrants and even had the most viewers of any game at Evo in 2017 when the top eight attracted 4.57 million viewers. But despite all this success in esports, Street Fighter V has struggled at retail, with the game barely making it to two million copies sold two years after it was released.

So, while esports are no doubt a large and fairly lucrative market, its still much smaller than the casual market which likely has a good number of players who have never played Melee.

But here's some more food for thought. People often claim that Melee draws in more players at tournaments and is more popular then Smash 4 in that regard.

So, here is the top three games in terms of entrants at Evo 2015 through Evo 2017. Evo 2015 is the first Evo for Smash Bros for Wii U.

First up, here's Evo 2015's top 3 games in terms of entrants.

Ultra Street Fighter IV: 2257

Super Smash Bros for Wii U: 1926

Super Smash Bros Melee: 1869


Here are the numbers for Evo 2016.

Street Fighter V: 5065

Super Smash Bros for Wii U: 2637

Super Smash Bros Melee: 2350


Now, here's the numbers for Evo 2017

Street Fighter V: 2622

Super Smash Bros for Wii U: 1515

Super Smash Bros Melee: 1435

So, what do these numbers tell us? Well, that Street Fighter is without a doubt the king of Evo, but that is irrelevant to this discussion.

For three years in a row, Smash Wii U has attracted more players then Melee has. Now, to be fair to Melee, its numbers are very impressive for an almost 20-year old game that was on a system that was mildly popular at best. It's impressive, no, it's unbelievable that Melee has been able to retain such numbers after so long.

But this also shatters the illusion that Melee draws more players then Smash 4. If anything, Smash 4 should be what Nintendo bases the next Smash Brothers on given it not only has sold more copies when you combine the 3DS and Wii U versions, but Smash Wii U has been only behind Street Fighter three years in a row.

They already have a bigger esports draw then Melee if Evo is anything to go by.

You're not taking into account how well the wii sold compared to the gamecube, 3ds and wii u. The Wii sold more than the 3ds and wii u combined and also sold more than the gamecube.
With the install base of Wii its obvious why Brawl sold the best.

Smash4 also had a larger instal base than melee.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Hmm, this link here supports my hypothesis even more. Nintendo is really trying to hype up the Esports angle for announcing this so early. And notice it's not just for Smash either.

 

[LancerStaff]

Yes, another casual-ass advertournament proves that Nintendo’s making Melee 2. Totally.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Yes, another casual-*** advertournament proves that Nintendo’s making Melee 2. Totally.

It doesn't disprove what I said either.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Real talk; Melee 2.0 will never be a thing, because good game design is the opposite of what Melee emphasises

All that tech? Most of it's either glitches or unintended consequences of several meshing systems. L-canceling? Absolute trash game design, delete as fast as possible. Wavedashing? If you want it to be a core part of the game, you need to make it accessible. Dash dancing? Maybe, but at its core it's something that slows the game down and makes offense harder, just like everything about Brawl and Sm4sh that Melee players whine about. Ledges? Hahaaaaaa no.

Melee the competitive game is what it is because the metagame hammered a totally different game out of all the random jank included in Melee the actual game. Expecting devs to look at all that and decided they need to slavishly imitate it?

Nah, brah.

 

[LancerStaff]

It doesn't disprove what I said either.

It means absolutely nothing.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Real talk; Melee 2.0 will never be a thing, because good game design is the opposite of what Melee emphasises

All that tech? Most of it's either glitches or unintended consequences of several meshing systems. L-canceling? Absolute trash game design, delete as fast as possible. Wavedashing? If you want it to be a core part of the game, you need to make it accessible. Dash dancing? Maybe, but at its core it's something that slows the game down and makes offense harder, just like everything about Brawl and Sm4sh that Melee players whine about. Ledges? Hahaaaaaa no.

Melee the competitive game is what it is because the metagame hammered a totally different game out of all the random jank included in Melee the actual game. Expecting devs to look at all that and decided they need to slavishly imitate it?

Nah, brah.

I never said it would be Melee 2.0, I said it would be like Melee to an extent, as in more so than Brawl or Smash 4. And there is a lot more to Melee's gameplay than "glitches".

 

[Lukingordex]

I personally don't want ledge hog back. A thing that i find really interesting in smash 4 is how that, in order to edgeguard, you actually have to risk yourself, go offstage and contest their recoveries with your moves. It is a big part of my main and is likely my favorite aspect of the game.
I'd tone down the recoveries in the game in general. Make all the up bs vulnerable to get hit with a fell exceptions like ness' pk thunder or little mac's up b.

There's also some other stuff i'd like such as nerfing some of the best rolls in the game (pit, sheik, diddy kong) or getting rid of rage entirely.

I don't mind other melee tech but i really don't want l-cancel back. It's a really unnecessary mechanic that has zero reason to not be used and adds nothing for the core of the game in general other than an extra button to be pressed. Having some degree of complexity is cool but preserving the health of our hands is also important.

 

[Alhobbies440]

It means absolutely nothing.

No, it does mean something. This supports the notion that Nintendo is opened to Esports/competition since Splatoon 2 is there. This also supports the notion that this is a new game since they wouldn't have a big invitational at E3 just for a Smash 4 port.

I don't mind other melee tech but i really don't want l-cancel back. It's a really unnecessary mechanic that has zero reason to not be used and adds nothing for the core of the game in general other than an extra button to be pressed. Having some degree of complexity is cool but preserving the health of our hands is also important.

I always thought L-Canceling was lame. Just make everyone's landing lag low. But whenever Melee is brought up why do people just put it in a box saying it's all tech or glitches? I'm not lambasting you in particular but there is so much more to Melee then just tech, I mean what about its physics engine? The weight, the speed, the momentum and fluidity of movement, the combos, the utter rush you feel when edge-guarding/being knocked off stage, the intense DBZ moments; those are all factors that make Melee, well Melee. When people deduce that game to just "glitches" it tells me one of many things, but mainly that they have no idea how these games really work and that they were probably born after the game came out and are too young to appreciate it(or they experienced the newer games before Melee). I mean even a lot of the top players in Smash 4 have a great appreciation for Melee and would often prefer the physics engine or combo game of Melee to that of the newer games(Zero, Esam, etc.). I only hear bad things about the game from people who don't even enter/support Smash 4's competitive scene.

 

[LancerStaff]

No, it does mean something. This supports the notion that Nintendo is opened to Esports/competition since Splatoon 2 is there. This also supports the notion that this is a new game since they wouldn't have a big invitational at E3 just for a Smash 4 port.

No, a casual-ass advertournament does not mean Nintendo’s going to develop the game for eSports.

The Splatoon side is more serious, and that’s because Splatoon is built to be more serious. Smash is not Splatoon. What Splatoon does is 100% irrelevant to Smash.

 

[Lukingordex]

No, it does mean something. This supports the notion that Nintendo is opened to Esports/competition since Splatoon 2 is there. This also supports the notion that this is a new game since they wouldn't have a big invitational at E3 just for a Smash 4 port.



I always thought L-Canceling was lame. Just make everyone's landing lag low. But whenever Melee is brought up why do people just put it in a box saying it's all tech or glitches? I'm not lambasting you in particular but there is so much more to Melee then just tech, I mean what about its physics engine? The weight, the speed, the momentum and fluidity of movement, the combos, the utter rush you feel when edge-guarding/being knocked off stage, the intense DBZ moments; those are all factors that make Melee, well Melee. When people deduce that game to just "glitches" it tells me one of many things, but mainly that they have no idea how these games really work and that they were probably born after the game came out and are too young to appreciate it(or they experienced the newer games before Melee). I mean even a lot of the top players in Smash 4 have a great appreciation for Melee and would often prefer the physics engine or combo game of Melee to that of the newer games(Zero, Esam, etc.). I only hear bad things about the game from people who don't even enter/support Smash 4's competitive scene.

I'd like to point out that i don't have such mindset you mentioned. I merely don't like l-cancel specifically and that's it.

 

[Alhobbies440]

No, a casual-*** advertournament does not mean Nintendo’s going to develop the game for eSports.

Yes the new game will have Esports in mind in its gameplay. Those will be selling points for the game. It's a business move dude. It's no different than them adding For Glory and Final Destination variants to every stage in Smash 4. People like to compete in these games. Making your new game have many similarities to the company's most successful Esports game is not a bad idea.

So ARMS and Splatoon weren’t made with eSports in mind.

The Splatoon side is more serious, and that’s because Splatoon is built to be more serious. Smash is not Splatoon. What Splatoon does is 100% irrelevant to Smash.

Lol, so which one is it? You just cut yourself twice in that one statement because before you said Splatoon wasn't made with Esports in mind and now you are acknowledging that NINTENDO IS HOLDING A SERIOUS ESPORTS EVENT FOR THEIR GAME, that's not even Smash! You're just nitpicking what I say and blowing it way out of proportion because you can't stand the thought of this game being similar to Melee or being competitive. Your arguments are small and hold no weight to them when Smash 4's existence disproves everything you said about Nintendo never supporting Esports. It's okay to not like Melee or to not want this to happen but it's not cool to just ignore the evidence.

I'd like to point out that i don't have such mindset you mentioned. I merely don't like l-cancel specifically and that's it.

I wasn't attacking you directly I was just speaking about that mindset in general.

 

[Crooked Crow]

I doubt we are ever going back to the niche, hardcore days of Smash 64 and Melee. Let's be honest. Where does the money lie? What does the free market demand?

Nintendo wants, first and foremost, their platforms to be accessible, and they also have a model of catering to the majority. Who are casuals, that will move onto a new game in 3 months anyway... But I digress. Grumble grumble.

Lastly, I am seeing some misconceptions about Sakurai's intention in regards to a technical skill ceiling.

Yes, he did intentionally leave, and knew about, wavedashing, wavelanding, and L Canceling. He even talks about it in interviews.

Z Canceling existed in Smash 64, hell, it was even discussed in the Japanese Smash 64 instruction manual. I don't think catering to a niche, handful of extremely weird people (come on guys, we study frame data and stuff, my friends look at me like I have three heads when I nerd out IRL) was the appropriate business decision to make in 2001, especially when competitive fighting games were a sleepy afterthought in comparison to the hoardes of kids screaming on Christmas morning.

TLDR: The competitive Smash community has always been grassroots and independent at its core, and this will most likely not change. We make the games competitive, and breathe the life into them. We don't have the luxury of designers paying close attention to metagame advancement, who actually PLAY said franchise at an equivalent level.

 

[Kewkky]

Crossing my fingers the overall mechanics are more reminiscent of Melee. I want a game with a very high skill ceiling that will keep players actually playing longer. I need to experience being pushed to my limit in reaction speed AND hand-eye coordination for me to truly enjoy a game.

*cough* also kirby should have a different upB *cough*

 

[Alhobbies440]

I doubt we are ever going back to the niche, hardcore days of Smash 64 and Melee. Let's be honest. Where does the money lie? What does the free market demand?

Nintendo wants, first and foremost, their platforms to be accessible, and they also have a model of catering to the majority. Who are casuals, that will move onto a new game in 3 months anyway... But I digress. Grumble grumble.

Lastly, I am seeing some misconceptions about Sakurai's intention in regards to a technical skill ceiling.

Yes, he did intentionally leave, and knew about, wavedashing, wavelanding, and L Canceling. He even talks about it in interviews.

Z Canceling existed in Smash 64, hell, it was even discussed in the Japanese Smash 64 instruction manual. I don't think catering to a niche, handful of extremely weird people (come on guys, we study frame data and stuff, my friends look at me like I have three heads when I nerd out IRL) was the appropriate business decision to make in 2001, especially when competitive fighting games were a sleepy afterthought in comparison to the hoardes of kids screaming on Christmas morning.

TLDR: The competitive Smash community has always been grassroots and independent at its core, and this will most likely not change. We make the games competitive, and breathe the life into them. We don't have the luxury of designers paying close attention to metagame advancement, who actually PLAY said franchise at an equivalent level.

Stop jumping to the extreme with niche and hardcore. Melee is not niche and hardcore; it's very casual friendly. It sold a lot of copies and made competitors out of casuals, just like Smash 4 did and soon the new game will do the same. People need to understand that a game can be both competitive and casual at the same time.

 

[Crooked Crow]

*cough* also kirby should have a different upB *cough*

You sure? Just give his UpB Smash 64 properties again. :}

Just not his UpTilt. Oh god.

Stop jumping to the extreme with niche and hardcore. Melee is not niche and hardcore; it's very casual friendly. It sold a lot of copies and made competitors out of casuals, just like Smash 4 did and soon the new game will do the same. People need to understand that a game can be both competitive and casual at the same time.

You missed the premise of my post. Sakurai made Melee with depth in mind, and was criticized for it. This explains the subsequent design choices for following games.

Melee is casual friendly? Then why did he gut Smash? Should have been fine, yeah? Hmm.

 

[R3D3MON]

Spoiler

I doubt we are ever going back to the niche, hardcore days of Smash 64 and Melee. Let's be honest. Where does the money lie? What does the free market demand?

Nintendo wants, first and foremost, their platforms to be accessible, and they also have a model of catering to the majority. Who are casuals, that will move onto a new game in 3 months anyway... But I digress. Grumble grumble.

Lastly, I am seeing some misconceptions about Sakurai's intention in regards to a technical skill ceiling.

Yes, he did intentionally leave, and knew about, wavedashing, wavelanding, and L Canceling. He even talks about it in interviews.

Z Canceling existed in Smash 64, hell, it was even discussed in the Japanese Smash 64 instruction manual. I don't think catering to a niche, handful of extremely weird people (come on guys, we study frame data and stuff, my friends look at me like I have three heads when I nerd out IRL) was the appropriate business decision to make in 2001, especially when competitive fighting games were a sleepy afterthought in comparison to the hoardes of kids screaming on Christmas morning.

TLDR: The competitive Smash community has always been grassroots and independent at its core, and this will most likely not change. We make the games competitive, and breathe the life into them. We don't have the luxury of designers paying close attention to metagame advancement, who actually PLAY said franchise at an equivalent level.

I just wish competitive smash had the developer support even remotely similar to Capcom ;_;

 

[LancerStaff]

Yes the new game will have Esports in mind in its gameplay. Those will be selling points for the game. It's a business move dude. It's no different than them adding For Glory and Final Destination variants to every stage in Smash 4. People like to compete in these games. Making your new game have many similarities to the company's most successful Esports game is not a bad idea.




Lol, so which one is it? You just cut yourself twice in that one statement because before you said Splatoon wasn't made with Esports in mind and now you are acknowledging that NINTENDO IS HOLDING A SERIOUS ESPORTS EVENT FOR THEIR GAME, that's not even Smash! You're just nitpicking what I say and blowing it way out of proportion because you can't stand the thought of this game being similar to Melee or being competitive. Your arguments are small and hold no weight to them when Smash 4's existence disproves everything you said about Nintendo never supporting Esports. It's okay to not like Melee or to not want this to happen but it's not cool to just ignore the evidence.

No it won’t. Chasing eSports usually leads to failure.

It’s both genius. Just because Splatoon is more serious than Smash (****ing lol, even Mario Kart is more serious than Smash in ways) doesn’t mean it’s built with eSports in mind. Like for example the bad tickrate making everything laggy and awful.

Smash will never be eSports focused as long as Sakurai is in charge. Unless you actually believe this garbage about Nintendo forcing it on him which will just lead to even more garbage.

 

[Fuqua]

You sure? Just give his UpB Smash 64 properties again. :}

Just not his UpTilt. Oh god.

View attachment 139315



You missed the premise of my post. Sakurai made Melee with depth in mind, and was criticized for it. This explains the subsequent design choices for following games.

Melee is casual friendly? Then why did he gut Smash? Should have been fine, yeah? Hmm.

melee IS casual friendly. fact. You people have no idea what an actual competitive game looks like. Compare melee to Starcraft broodwar, its a joke. You can turn on melee, learn the basics in seconds, and have a good time. Will you beat a good player? no, neither will you in any of the other smash games.

Melee arguably has a higher skill ceiling than the other smash games, but its every bit as easy to pick up and play as the other games are. No one, and i repeat, NO ONE would have thought to criticize melee for being too hard before it became well known for being a "hardcore" game and people on the internet began to only associate it with wavedashing and l-canceling (mechanics which the game doesnt expect you to use and doesnt even tell you about).

This is exactly the thing that frustrates me about these types of conversations. if smash 5 was more like melee, 95% of players wouldnt even realise that the new game is "different" in any significant way. The niche that cares about this game not being like melee is every bit as niche as the people who do care for it to be like melee, the vast majority could not care less.

Obviously you, and sakurai dont agree with me on that. I have yet to see any unbiased data that even indicates that melee was less enjoyable for casual players.

 

[LancerStaff]

Obviously you, and sakurai dont agree with me on that. I have yet to see any unbiased data that even indicates that melee was less enjoyable for casual players.

Yeah no. Melee was awful for casuals.

Namely the mechanics made going offstage for gimps, one of the biggest aspects of the series, incredibly risky and difficult. So difficult that scrubs made up rules to not do it.

Other things are also horrible for casuals. I think everyone knew how terrible the ledge mechanics were and how useless dodges were in general.

Balancing the game for casuals makes it more enjoyable for casuals. That’s an undeniable fact. Don’t give me that “they don’t care about balance” or “you can’t balance that” bull**** either.

 

[Fuqua]

Yeah no. Melee was awful for casuals.

Namely the mechanics made going offstage for gimps, one of the biggest aspects of the series, incredibly risky and difficult. So difficult that scrubs made up rules to not do it.

Other things are also horrible for casuals. I think everyone knew how terrible the ledge mechanics were and how useless dodges were in general.

Balancing the game for casuals makes it more enjoyable for casuals. That’s an undeniable fact. Don’t give me that “they don’t care about balance” or “you can’t balance that” bull**** either.

I suppose we all just have our anecdotal evidence so its difficult to say what casuals really thought about melee. Ive played melee with many people who have no clue about its reputation on the internet or how difficult it supposedly is. No one ever mentioned preferring the other games over melee, or if they did it was because of characters the arent present in melee. But gameplay? Nah whatever difference they would recognize they never really cared about it.

Now gimping is already a somewhat advanced technique. For casuals the game is perfectly playable without ever doing it, and i know thats the case because most casuals ive played with never did it or even thought to do it. I suppose you do have an argument with ledge grabs. I mean i dont remember ever having had issues with it, but i can see how it might be difficult for casuals, probably more difficult than it should be since getting back on stage happens so frequently that it should be something that everyone can do consistently. Again, none of my friends ever mentioned to me not enjoying that aspect of melee.

What youre talking about here are not concerns that casuals share. Casuals dont care about mastering pivoting, and they only care about ledgegrabs it they die frequently enough to the point where they dont find the game enjoyable. These are complaints of someone who does have an interest in more serious play.

 

[LancerStaff]

I suppose we all just have our anecdotal evidence so its difficult to say what casuals really thought about melee. Ive played melee with many people who have no clue about its reputation on the internet or how difficult it supposedly is. No one ever mentioned preferring the other games over melee, or if they did it was because of characters the arent present in melee. But gameplay? Nah whatever difference they would recognize they never really cared about it.

Now gimping is already a somewhat advanced technique. For casuals the game is perfectly playable without ever doing it, and i know thats the case because most casuals ive played with never did it or even thought to do it. I suppose you do have an argument with ledge grabs. I mean i dont remember ever having had issues with it, but i can see how it might be difficult for casuals, probably more difficult than it should be since getting back on stage happens so frequently that it should be something that everyone can do consistently. Again, none of my friends ever mentioned to me not enjoying that aspect of melee.

What youre talking about here are not concerns that casuals share. Casuals dont care about mastering pivoting, and they only care about ledgegrabs it they die frequently enough to the point where they dont find the game enjoyable. These are complaints of someone who does have an interest in more serious play.

People notice basic **** like gravity man. Hell, I’ve seen casuals play stuff like Mario and immediately notice how different individual Mario games are. Casuals do care about gameplay. Which is why we have things like FighterZ outperforming the old DBZ games.

Gimping isn’t that advanced... Post Melee. Considering it’s in the tutorial it’s supposed to be pretty common and relatively simple.

Melee’s ledge mechanics reek of bull****. I’ve never known anyone to play Melee for more than a few hours without cursing them.

Casual games should be balanced for casuals. No excuses.

 

[laces]

The edge hogging "controversy" is overblown. When I was a kid we'd just agree not to do it if someone was getting salty.

 

[LancerStaff]

The edge hogging "controversy" is overblown. When I was a kid we'd just agree not to do it if someone was getting salty.

Exactly why it was nerfed to **** and then removed. Can’t tell randoms to back down, can you?

 

[masterluigi1]

Yeah no. Melee was awful for casuals.

Namely the mechanics made going offstage for gimps, one of the biggest aspects of the series, incredibly risky and difficult. So difficult that scrubs made up rules to not do it.

Other things are also horrible for casuals. I think everyone knew how terrible the ledge mechanics were and how useless dodges were in general.

Balancing the game for casuals makes it more enjoyable for casuals. That’s an undeniable fact. Don’t give me that “they don’t care about balance” or “you can’t balance that” bull**** either.

You do know Edgehogging was in brawl. which is the most casual game right?
Edgehogging isn't even hard to do...all you have to do is hang on the ledge.

Everything you're listing are things that casuals don't have to worry about when playing against other casuals. Wavedashing, L-cancelling, and Edgehogging are all things casuals usually dont do and dont worry about.
The base game is something thats easy to play and pick up for anyone