Why this will be the next Melee(to an extent)

[LancerStaff]

You do know Edgehogging was in brawl. which is the most casual game right?
Edgehogging isn't even hard to do...all you have to do is hang on the ledge.

Everything you're listing are things that casuals don't have to worry about when playing against other casuals. Wavedashing, L-cancelling, and Edgehogging are all things casuals usually dont do and dont worry about.
The base game is something thats easy to play and pick up for anyone

In Brawl edgehogging was much harder. Except for particular recoveries (or the rare situation where somebody’s in special fall a mile above the edge) it took some amount of skill and timing to pull off. It’s not like Melee where it would frequently happen on accident and was easily abusable.

Even then it was still too much and removed. Just because Brawl was more casual overall doesn’t mean everything in it was as it should be.

Those other things are just ****ty tech. Tech has no place in a casual game.

 

[masterluigi1]

In Brawl edgehogging was much harder. Except for particular recoveries (or the rare situation where somebody’s in special fall a mile above the edge) it took some amount of skill and timing to pull off. It’s not like Melee where it would frequently happen on accident and was easily abusable.

Even then it was still too much and removed. Just because Brawl was more casual overall doesn’t mean everything in it was as it should be.

Those other things are just ****ty tech. Tech has no place in a casual game.

LOL You proved my point
You just said Edgehoging was easier in melee. Like I said Edgehogging was not hard for casuals to do in melee.

The thing that makes melee good as both a hardcore AND casual game is that casuals arn't FORCED to use those ""***ty techs".
Casuals can enjoy the game without even knowing those techniques exist.

 

[laces]

Exactly why it was nerfed to **** and then removed. Can’t tell randoms to back down, can you?

You can and if they refuse, just don't play with them. Chances are if you're a casual, you'll be playing against another casual anyways.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

I'm of the opinion that Lancer's right. You underestimate what casuals can "feel". If they can tell the difference between Mario 64 and Odyssey, they can tell the difference between Melee and Brawl and this game. Weren't there magazine reviews of Melee complaining about the gravity? They'd definitely notice that.

I do think there's a good middle point that lets the competitive game be stronger while still being easy enough for casuals (ain't DBFZ that way?) . Simply speeding up the game slightly (not Melee level, but faster than 4), letting momentum be preserved in running jumps, and adding more shieldstun would do wonders, I think.

 

[CryoGX]

Practically, I don't think it will be like Melee; I feel like, port or not, it's gonna build from the Wii U version's engine and implement changes from there, unless it's mentioned that that game's been built from the ground up.

I'd definitely like the game to be fundamentally sped up though.

 

[masterluigi1]

I'm of the opinion that Lancer's right. You underestimate what casuals can "feel". If they can tell the difference between Mario 64 and Odyssey, they can tell the difference between Melee and Brawl and this game. Weren't there magazine reviews of Melee complaining about the gravity? They'd definitely notice that.

I do think there's a good middle point that lets the competitive game be stronger while still being easy enough for casuals (ain't DBFZ that way?) . Simply speeding up the game slightly (not Melee level, but faster than 4), letting momentum be preserved in running jumps, and adding more shieldstun would do wonders, I think.

So what if they can feel the difference or not. There is nothing about about melee's gravity or engine that makes it hard for someone new to pick up and play and have fun.

 

[LancerStaff]

LOL You proved my point
You just said Edgehoging was easier in melee. Like I said Edgehogging was not hard for casuals to do in melee.

The thing that makes melee good as both a hardcore AND casual game is that casuals arn't FORCED to use those ""***ty techs".
Casuals can enjoy the game without even knowing those techniques exist.

It’s bad because it’s stupid and people hate it. It was better when it was harder, and removing it is even better.

It’s an arbitrary knowledge barrier. It just makes the climb that much harder and adds little to the game. Fighting games in general are moving past them, not just Smash.

You can and if they refuse, just don't play with them. Chances are if you're a casual, you'll be playing against another casual anyways.

I mean you literally can’t. I’m talking about online...

If it happens even once you’re going to feel cheated. Why would you want people who play your game to feel that way?

So what if they can feel the difference or not. There is nothing about about melee's gravity or engine that makes it hard for someone new to pick up and play and have fun.

Gravity, crappy dodges, and the other bull**** magically doesn’t mean anything now, apparently.

 

[laces]

I mean you literally can’t. I’m talking about online...

If it happens even once you’re going to feel cheated. Why would you want people who play your game to feel that way?

A competent matchmaking system would easily fix this.

 

[LancerStaff]

A competent matchmaking system would easily fix this.

No amount of matchmaking will stop people from feeling cheated by edgehogging.

And it won’t protect casuals from edgehogging either. It will inevitably happen.

 

[laces]

No amount of matchmaking will stop people from feeling cheated by edgehogging.

And it won’t protect casuals from edgehogging either. It will inevitably happen.

I hate it when people roll spam, should we get rid of rolls too? Someone somewhere is always going to feel cheated with or without edgehogging. If someone really gets that upset don't play in a competitive mode

That being said, I think making ledgehogging harder to pull off might be a good compromise.
.

 

[masterluigi1]

It’s bad because it’s stupid and people hate it. It was better when it was harder, and removing it is even better.

It’s an arbitrary knowledge barrier. It just makes the climb that much harder and adds little to the game. Fighting games in general are moving past them, not just Smash.



I mean you literally can’t. I’m talking about online...

If it happens even once you’re going to feel cheated. Why would you want people who play your game to feel that way?



Gravity, crappy dodges, and the other bull**** magically doesn’t mean anything now, apparently.

It seems like you're gripe isn't whether edgehogging is casual or hardcore...it's simply something you PERSONALLY don't like.

There is a difference between a bad mechanic and a hardcore mechanic.
A hardcore mechanic would something the game forces you to do that is HARD to pull off.

and like you and I have said...edgehogging isn't hard to pull off for a beginner.
Edgeguarding is common knowlege.


Also why do people here keep listing gravity. NOTHING about melee's gravity made it harder to play for beginers.

 

[LancerStaff]

I hate it when people roll spam, should we get rid of rolls too? Someone somewhere is always going to feel cheated with or without edgehogging. If someone really gets that upset don't play in a competitive mode

That being said, I think making ledgehogging harder to pull off might be a good compromise.
.

Roll spam only really matters in 1v1s. Most people are playing FFAs.

We don’t need a compromise. We’re just going to get Smash 4 ledges again.

It seems like you're gripe isn't whether edgehogging is casual or hardcore...it's simply something you PERSONALLY don't like.

There is a difference between a bad mechanic and a hardcore mechanic.
A hardcore mechanic would something the game forces you to do that is HARD to pull off.

and like you and I have said...edgehogging isn't hard to pull off for a beginner.
Edgeguarding is common knowlege.


Also why do people here keep listing gravity. NOTHING about melee's gravity made it harder to play for beginers.

Edgehogging was a near universally hated mechanic. What rock do you live under? It’s not enjoyable for casuals. The difficulty is irrelevant.

Melee’s gravity was panned in multiple reviews way back when. It makes aerial combat and off stage play unnecessarily difficult. It will not return. You’ll be lucky to even have a net increase in fall speed overall.

 

[masterluigi1]

Edgehogging was a near universally hated mechanic. What rock do you live under? It’s not enjoyable for casuals. The difficulty is irrelevant.

Melee’s gravity was panned in multiple reviews way back when. It makes aerial combat and off stage play unnecessarily difficult. It will not return. You’ll be lucky to even have a net increase in fall speed overall.

lol you're putting words in my mouth. I never said edge-hogging nessesarily was a loved mechanic.

The point i'm making(which you missed completely) is that whether or not people hate or love edgehogging has NOTHING to do with whether or not its a casual or hardcore mechanic.

We are arguing whether or not edge-hogging is a casual mechanic right?
if so then the difficulty DOES matter.
Difficulty is key to whether a game is casual or hardcore.

Melee never required any casual gamer to use difficult mechanics. Casual gamers can play melee... casually and still enjoy it.

all you've done here is tell me how much you hate edgehogging but you have failed to prove how it is a hardcore mechanic.

a bad mechanic is not the same as a hardcore mechanic.

 

[laces]

Roll spam only really matters in 1v1s. Most people are playing FFAs.

By that logic edge hogging really becomes a non issue, since FFA are a giant cluster**** anyways. I hope we see it back. I think it adds more to the game than it takes away.

 

[schmammal]

OP's Rant

 

[LancerStaff]

lol you're putting words in my mouth. I never said edge-hogging nessesarily was a loved mechanic.

The point i'm making(which you missed completely) is that whether or not people hate or love edgehogging has NOTHING to do with whether or not its a casual or hardcore mechanic.

We are arguing whether or not edge-hogging is a casual mechanic right?
if so then the difficulty DOES matter.
Difficulty is key to whether a game is casual or hardcore.

Melee never required any casual gamer to use difficult mechanics. Casual gamers can play melee... casually and still enjoy it.

all you've done here is tell me how much you hate edgehogging but you have failed to prove how it is a hardcore mechanic.

a bad mechanic is not the same as a hardcore mechanic.

It’s a mechanic almost universally hated by casuals. That’s why it was cut. How “casual” or not it is does not matter. It was cut for the sake of casuals. The decision is what matters, not the incidental mechanic in a rushed game.

By that logic edge hogging really becomes a non issue, since FFA are a giant cluster**** anyways. I hope we see it back. I think it adds more to the game than it takes away.

Since it’s a cluster **** it’s even more likely to happen by accident. Like if multiple people get launched the same way...

It adds nothing to the game. It’s mindless and shallow.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The whole ledgehogging thing is honestly really dumb design anyway. It's just a cheap tactic that forced a Ledge Grab Limit for Brawl competitive play(so no, it's not a problem with casuals, but competitive play too).

Anyway, I think the game will be a bit more offensive. More in-line with how Melee is, but it doesn't mean it'll return any of the advanced techs(or L-Cancelling, which is hardly advanced by any means). While I'd like a modified Wavedashing to reappear(with it balanced around the character), unless they make it significantly easier, it's a bad idea. It simply hurts people's hands too much(which ironically not an issue with some advanced techs like L-Cancelling, though it does make pivoting an issue too).

 

[MysticKnives]

The whole ledgehogging thing is honestly really dumb design anyway. It's just a cheap tactic that forced a Ledge Grab Limit for Brawl competitive play(so no, it's not a problem with casuals, but competitive play too).

Anyway, I think the game will be a bit more offensive. More in-line with how Melee is, but it doesn't mean it'll return any of the advanced techs(or L-Cancelling, which is hardly advanced by any means). While I'd like a modified Wavedashing to reappear(with it balanced around the character), unless they make it significantly easier, it's a bad idea. It simply hurts people's hands too much(which ironically not an issue with some advanced techs like L-Cancelling, though it does make pivoting an issue too).

I'm just curious why you feel this game will be more offensive. I'd certainly like it myself but I don't see why the game is going to be more offensive based off what he know now.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm just curious why you feel this game will be more offensive. I'd certainly like it myself but I don't see why the game is going to be more offensive based off what he know now.

It’s just a fan want, nothing more. If such a thing happens it will be by chance.

I could see dodges being globally nerfed but I could also see them buff the **** out of zoners too.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm just curious why you feel this game will be more offensive. I'd certainly like it myself but I don't see why the game is going to be more offensive based off what he know now.

Because the game headed far more towards competitive play in Smash 4 compared to Brawl, and it makes sense, now that Nintendo is far more into esports, will be pushed to be a bit more competitive. Smash 4 is already very competitive, but still has too much defense. The first thing they announced with Smash is a tournament right after it got a normal "this game exists" announcement. It's clear that they want it to be popular with both kinds of crowds, casual and competitive. But that's Nintendo's goal, to be including to multiple crowds.

It also won't be by luck, but by design, if it happens. Sakurai, contrary to popular belief, has zero issues with competitive play. What he actually means is that while competitive play isn't an issue, some of the elitist attitudes are, which is why he tried to make Brawl significantly more casual in comparison, to try and unite both fanbases, by making it easy to play. It didn't work. Smash 4 was created more in mind to appeal to both crowds in a far better fashion, but removing a lot of bull****(like chain grabbing), but still making it very fun to pick up and play. They even removed vectoring very quickly since it was too dominant of a tech. It'd be no different from Brawl getting a patch to remove an advanced tech from gliding for balance reasons(not that Brawl has patched, but the comparison is apt).

 

[masterluigi1]

It’s a mechanic almost universally hated by casuals. That’s why it was cut. How “casual” or not it is does not matter. It was cut for the sake of casuals. The decision is what matters, not the incidental mechanic in a rushed game.

Did Sakurai say that or did you just make that up?
what you're saying makes no sense anyway. If he cut it for the sake of casuals then why wasn't it cut in brawl?
you even said it was made harder in brawl.

you don't know why it was cut so I don't know why you're making stuff up.

 

[laces]

Since it’s a cluster **** it’s even more likely to happen by accident. Like if multiple people get launched the same way...

Why would anyone care if they got edgehogged when they're constantly dying to items, stage hazards, and stray smash attacks? Assuming we're still talking about FFAs, which according to you, most people play that way.

It adds nothing to the game. It’s mindless and shallow.

Reasons?

 

[Alhobbies440]

What is that 4chan post you were talking about? What did it say?

Basically that they predicted the reveal and inklings and that it would be officially announced at E3. It also said the game would be called Melee 2(I doubt this but who knows) and that Nintendo would have a heavy focus on Esports and catering to the competitive scene. Massive roster cuts and clone characters finally getting their own fleshed out movesets(Luigi, Ganon, etc.). I never copied the link because it wasn't necessary for my op but if anyone has the details feel free to post them.

 

[LancerStaff]

Did Sakurai say that or did you just make that up?
what you're saying makes no sense anyway. If he cut it for the sake of casuals then why wasn't it cut in brawl?
you even said it was made harder in brawl.

you don't know why it was cut so I don't know why you're making stuff up.

Why else would it be cut? Everything that happens in these games happens because of casuals. One more change because of casuals isn’t unusual.

It wasn’t cut in Brawl because he didn’t think of the new ledge system. He didn’t actually want to keep edgehogging around lmao. Edgehogging was made worse and worse over time. This is not how you treat an intentional mechanic.

Why would anyone care if they got edgehogged when they're constantly dying to items, stage hazards, and stray smash attacks? Assuming we're still talking about FFAs, which according to you, most people play that way.


Reasons?

...Why wouldn’t they care? Just because there’s bombs and Pokeballs being spammed doesn’t mean people won’t mind losing a life to bull**** design.

When people say **** like this I question if they’ve even played Smash at all.

It’s braindead. You don’t choose to go for an edgehog, you edgehog in every situation where your opponent would grab the ledge. Maybe in a handful of situations where you would have to guess there could be some semblance of depth but otherwise it’s just braindead and makes balancing recoveries that much harder.

 

[MacDaddyNook]

I guess I'm what they would call a casual. I honestly am glad that ledge-hogging is gone, and hope it stays gone forever (as with other removed "mechanics"). It always felt very cheep and unsporting, even in a casual match full of items and stage hazards.

 

[Nio]

I have a question because i have seen this comment a lot.

"Smash 5 would focus on a competitive play/would be more competitive because Nintendo is getting into Esports"

Isnt Smash 4 a competitive game? I mean, it was really big at Evo and has lot of views on Twitch, tournaments, etc.

Maybe im confusing competitive with "flashy" or fast paced, which Melee is and Smash 4 is not.

Thing is, if Nintendo wants a competitive game, why is the Melee playstyle the way to go? Thats what i dont get. Im not saying it should be like Smash 4, i just want to know why is Melee viewed as the more competitive game.

Btw, i would love if Smash 5 is more like Melee.

 

[Alhobbies440]

I have a question because i have seen this comment a lot.

"Smash 5 would focus on a competitive play/would be more competitive because Nintendo is getting into Esports"

Isnt Smash 4 a competitive game? I mean, it was really big at Evo and has lot of views on Twitch, tournaments, etc.

Maybe im confusing competitive with "flashy" or fast paced, which Melee is and Smash 4 is not.

Thing is, if Nintendo wants a competitive game, why is the Melee playstyle the way to go? Thats what i dont get. Im not saying it should be like Smash 4, i just want to know why is Melee viewed as the more competitive game.

Btw, i would love if Smash 5 is more like Melee.

Because it has stood the test of time while Brawl, and eventually Smash 4, will be dropped when the new game comes out. Nintendo wants the Melee crowd to drop it in favor of the new game but the only way to do that is to make the new game more appealing to them.

 

[Nio]

Because it has stood the test of time while Brawl, and eventually Smash 4, will be dropped when the new game comes out. Nintendo wants the Melee crowd to drop it in favor of the new game but the only way to do that is to make the new game more appealing to them.

The problem i have with this is that we dont know if that is true. You could be right, or maybe they dont care if the Melee crowd wants to keep playing Melee.

Revival of Melee was a thing, so maybe that can happen again? We dont know. Well, maybe not with Brawl.

Thing is, i still dont get why Melee is the standard for competitive play because Smash 4 has at least equal success (Ratings, crowds, etc).

Gonna say it again, personally i would love if Smash 5 is more like Melee, but i dont see a reason why Nintendo would do that given Smash 4 success/sells.

 

[Alhobbies440]

The problem i have with this is that we dont know if that its true. You could be right, or maybe they dont care if the Melee crowd wants to keep playing Melee.

Revival of Melee was a thing, so maybe that can happen again? We dont know. Well, maybe not with Brawl.

Thing is, i still dont get why Melee is the standard for competitive play because Smash 4 has at least equal success (Ratings, crowds, etc).

Gonna say it again, personally i would love if Smash 5 is more like Melee, but i dont see a reason why Nintendo would do that given Smash 4 success/sells.

They want the Melee crowd(really all FGC crowds) to move on to Smash 5 because that would mean more revenue for them(popular top Melee players would be promoting their game for them by hyping it up/word of mouth). Nintendo isn't making money off of Melee anymore but they know the interest is still there. Smash 4 is big because it's the newest smash game, not because everyone universally prefers its gameplay. When Brawl was released it was the biggest game until newer games came out.

 

[laces]

...Why wouldn’t they care? Just because there’s bombs and Pokeballs being spammed doesn’t mean people won’t mind losing a life to bull**** design.

If you're dying a dozen different ways and the edgehogging is what throws you into a tantrum, you're being a baby. Turn on infinite lives and get over it. Or play with different people. Or play on a casual mode. Or play a character with better recovery. It seems like a shame to axe an entirely fair mechanic just to please a small subset of people that get savagely pissed about this.

When people say **** like this I question if they’ve even played Smash at all.

It’s braindead. You don’t choose to go for an edgehog, you edgehog in every situation where your opponent would grab the ledge. Maybe in a handful of situations where you would have to guess there could be some semblance of depth but otherwise it’s just braindead and makes balancing recoveries that much harder.

Is it anymore braindead than chucking a bunch of insta-kill items?

It forces the player on stage to remain proactive if they want an early kill. It requires timing so you don't get hit while pulling it off. It makes being offstage more treacherous, which imo you shouldn't be rewarded for being knocked off stage anyways. Without it you just lose another layer of strategy. That's the last I'm going to say of it 'cause this conversation is about to go in circles. Agree to disagree.

I have a question because i have seen this comment a lot.

"Smash 5 would focus on a competitive play/would be more competitive because Nintendo is getting into Esports"

Isnt Smash 4 a competitive game? I mean, it was really big at Evo and has lot of views on Twitch, tournaments, etc.

Maybe im confusing competitive with "flashy" or fast paced, which Melee is and Smash 4 is not.

Thing is, if Nintendo wants a competitive game, why is the Melee playstyle the way to go? Thats what i dont get. Im not saying it should be like Smash 4, i just want to know why is Melee viewed as the more competitive game.

Btw, i would love if Smash 5 is more like Melee.

Sm4sh is competitive but not to the extent of Melee. Melee has a lot more movement options which opens the game up to a faster pace and higher skill ceiling. I don't (and I suspect others?) don't need another Melee 2 but would like to just have more movement options than Sm4sh allows.

 

[Nio]

Sm4sh is competitive but not to the extent of Melee. Melee has a lot more movement options which opens the game up to a faster pace and higher skill ceiling. I don't (and I suspect others?) don't need another Melee 2 but would like to just have more movement options than Sm4sh allows.

While i understand what you mean, i think that thats not the definition of competitive. A game with higher skill ceiling/hard to play/hard to be top 1% does not translate to a "more" competitive game. Edit: You know, thinking for a couple minutes i actually cant get a clear definition for "competitive game" besides the obvious fairness aspect. Would like to hear what you think a competitive game means.

Thats kinda the problem i have with this "it has to be like Melee if we want it to be competitive/be an Esport game". Having said that, i do agree with Alhobbies about the reasons why Nintendo would like it to be more like Melee, but i dont think it would be more/less competitive because of that.

 

[laces]

While i understand what you mean, i think that thats not the definition of competitive. A game with higher skill ceiling/hard to play/hard to be top 1% does not translate to a "more" competitive game. Edit: You know, thinking for a couple minutes i actually cant get a clear definition for "competitive game" besides the obvious fairness aspect. Would like to hear what you think a competitive game means.

Hmm, I guess things do get a tad tricky when we get down to definitions. The #1 goal for a competitive player is to win. When you give more players tools to win (L canceling, wavedashing, etc.) it reduces luck from the equation, leaving things up to skill and strategy. On top of that, it's fun to watch, giving it more potential to make money.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is a more competitive game is more competitive when there's more skill and strats involved Thanks for actually making me think for once in this thread.

Thats kinda the problem i have with this "it has to be like Melee if we want it to be competitive/be an Esport game". Having said that, i do agree with Alhobbies about the reasons why Nintendo would like it to be more like Melee, but i dont think it would be more/less competitive because of that.

I agree. It doesn't necessarily HAVE to be like Melee to be competitive (at least more so than Sm4sh). But I think why people want it so is because Melees' already proven itself in the esports area and it'd be the safest bet to just copy from it.

 

[Alhobbies440]

While i understand what you mean, i think that thats not the definition of competitive. A game with higher skill ceiling/hard to play/hard to be top 1% does not translate to a "more" competitive game. Edit: You know, thinking for a couple minutes i actually cant get a clear definition for "competitive game" besides the obvious fairness aspect. Would like to hear what you think a competitive game means.

What makes a game competitive is entirely up to how passionate the players are towards the game. It could be the least competitive game ever on a technical level but if people are really hungry to push themselves then they'll find a way to make it competitive. The only way you can make someone extremely passionate about a game is to make them fall head over heels in love with the gameplay; I mean the gameplay has to be utterly amazing and fun to them. Melee did this to thousands of people which is why it's the juggernaut that it is today. Other smash games, while decent, don't have anything on Melee when it comes to its fun and fluid gameplay. That's why they immediately die out when the next installment arrives.

 

[masterluigi1]

Why else would it be cut? Everything that happens in these games happens because of casuals. One more change because of casuals isn’t unusual.

It wasn’t cut in Brawl because he didn’t think of the new ledge system. He didn’t actually want to keep edgehogging around lmao. Edgehogging was made worse and worse over time. This is not how you treat an intentional mechanic.

Now you're just throwing out a bunch of assumptions based on no evidence.

He could have cut it because he simply thought it was a "bad" mechanic(like ive said countess times) or he simply wanted to change up the smash bros formula. There are plenty of reasons that could explain why it was removed from smash 4. Point is WE DONT KNOW.

but Brawl disagrees with you saying that it was cut because it wasn't casual enough.
and dont give me that bs about Sakurai didn't think of it in brawl

If brawl was designed by sakurai to be the most casual focused game in the series and he thought edge-hogging was as bad for casuals as you're saying it was then theres no way he would let something like that stay in the game.
Not only that but he made it even harder to pull off.

 

[Nio]

What makes a game competitive is entirely up to how passionate the players are towards the game. It could be the least competitive game ever on a technical level but if people are really hungry to push themselves then they'll find a way to make it competitive. The only way you can make someone extremely passionate about a game is to make them fall head over heels in love with the gameplay; I mean the gameplay has to be utterly amazing and fun to them. Melee did this to thousands of people which is why it's the juggernaut that it is today. Other smash games, while decent, don't have anything on Melee when it comes to its fun and fluid gameplay. That's why they immediately die out when the next installment arrives.

I understand, but i just cant agree with that. I dont think that a game is competitive because of the passion of that game fans, but then you said "it could be the least competitive game ever on a technical level" so we are defining that competitive level based on gameplay.

Then you talk about how the gameplay has to be amazing and fun. That makes me think lot of things. Isnt Splatoon for example, really fun? What about Street Figther? Would you consider the biggest fighting Esport game to be as fun as Smash? I dont, so why the game is so popular?

To be fair, you cant say that Smash 4 is going to die right now. I think it would, but then again Melee died when Brawl came out, thats why the Revival of Melee happened. I would also consider that Brawl didnt fulfill Melee's void because, well, it sucked for competitive play, something that Smash 4 is not guilty of given the really big crowds/tournament entries/etc.

So lot of things happened that made Melee what it is today and i dont think is "more" competitive that Smash 4 because of the gameplay, at least not that alone.

I like what Iaces said. Give players the tools to win in the form of really advanced and difficult to execute techniques, that would make the game less luck based and more challenging but that has to go with other stuff, like balance, consistency, etc things that vanilla Melee may lack a bit.

 

[Alhobbies440]

I understand, but i just cant agree with that. I dont think that a game is competitive because of the passion of that game fans, but then you said "it could be the least competitive game ever on a technical level" so we are defining that competitive level based on gameplay.

Then you talk about how the gameplay has to be amazing and fun. That makes me think lot of things. Isnt Splatoon for example, really fun? What about Street Figther? Would you consider the biggest fighting Esport game to be as fun as Smash? I dont, so why the game is so popular?

To be fair, you cant say that Smash 4 is going to die right now. I think it would, but then again Melee died when Brawl came out, thats why the Revival of Melee happened. I would also consider that Brawl didnt fulfill Melee's void because, well, it sucked for competitive play, something that Smash 4 is not guilty of given the really big crowds/tournament entries/etc.

So lot of things happened that made Melee what it is today and i dont think is "more" competitive that Smash 4 because of the gameplay, at least not that alone.

I lik what Iaces said. Give players the tools to win in the form of really advanced and difficult to execute techniques, that would make the game less luck based and more challenging but that has to go with other stuff, like balance, consistency, etc things that vanilla Melee may lack a bit.

Answer me this, why was Melee revived?

 

[Nio]

Answer me this, why was Melee revived?

I said it in the last post. Brawl didnt fulfill the void that Melee left.

You think Melee would be this popular right now if Brawl was more like Melee? If Brawl was like Project M, Smash 4 was like Melee HD?

Not saying that the love for the amazing gameplay didnt take part for that to happen, but is hard to say given that Brawl is the way it is.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Not saying that the love for the amazing gameplay didnt took part for that to happen, but is hard to say given that Brawl is the way it is.

You just proved your own statement wrong then pal. Just think about what I said. And don't forget "fun" is subjective.

 

[Nio]

You just proved your own statement wrong then pal. Just think about what I said. And don't forget "fun" is subjective.

Lets try not to get into this useless type of post, please. You can say what you think without the "just think about what i said". Maybe i missunderstood something and i would really like if you can make it clear.

I kinda know what you are saying but i dont see how that makes my statement wrong.

Finally, by saying that fun is subjective you are proving what i said about Splatoon/Street Figther hence why i think that the passion of the player base has nothing to do with the competitive aspect of the game.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Basically, melee would’ve died if brawl was as clean as project m was.

Also, I hope this new smash is different and unique, better not be similar to melee in gameplay. Wasted opportunity to innovate if that’s the case. Been playin dusty ol melee for +15 Years.

Also, brawl happened due to Sakurai’s wants to capitalized on the casual fan base of the wii. Nothing against the community or anything (he didn’t know us at the time lol).

Also, smash 4 is more character-specifc than melee is. 4 has movement options, but they’re more delegated towards ZSS, Diddy, Mewtwo, and others. Smash 4 is like SF, melee is like marvel.

Also, a competitive game makes sure the winner(s) won by his/their skill. Point blank period. Nothing else. That’s the basic level of it.

Also. Smash 4 is a great competitive game, just tainted a bit by a controversial character, and really really bad training mode (one thing I hope doesn’t get overlooked ppppplz). The training mode gets too many things ambiguous, and makes it that much harder to get good and to understand the game.

Also, cyberbots is the GOAT.