Why this will be the next Melee(to an extent)

What do you think will be the case?


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Alhobbies440

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#1
First off I don't think this is a port. I could be wrong, but this isn't a port.

Now recently Nintendo has been making an effort for their games to be in the headlines of Esports. We saw that in E3 last year with their Splatoon 2 and ARMS competitions so I expect this E3 to have a big Smash Bros. competition(which is their biggest Esports game). They know Melee is popular, they know about those crazy Melee Evo numbers, and since Esports is part of their business model now they're going to pull a lot of inspiration from that game. I'm telling you that they are going to try and capitalize off of that Melee crowd. Here is a link to IGN briefly talking about Nintendo, Smash, and Esports.


Here is a link to a 4chan post(I know it's 4chan but hear me out). Now I'm not saying this is in any way credible but I'm not saying it isn't either since they predicted the teaser and inklings. What I do find amusing is the essence of what they are saying just makes too much sense with the monetary mindset Nintendo has right now. Cutting back on characters to flesh out the ones you already have at launch in favor of more focus on competitive gameplay(keep in mind that they could make major cuts to the roster and then release them as DLC later on, we know it's possible since they already did it with Smash 4). Now I have no opinion on Air Grabs/Guarding and what not(but if you do please discuss them below!) but the "Smash-Dash" definitely has my attention because that would be a direct answer to a complaint Sakurai had during a Smash 4 tournament he attended in Japan. I wish I had the quote but he basically criticized the underutilization of smash attacks, saying something to the effect of it being boring to watch because the competitors hardly use them.


Now as for Sakurai. We all know that Sakurai takes great pride in his work and given his track record with the series I don't think Smash 5 will just be an "upgraded" Smash 4 in the sense of having a similar but upgraded gameplay and mechanics(like Smash 4 was to Brawl). I believe he is going to really shake things up and make the game his version of an "upgraded Melee", essentially his "answer" to the FGC of Smash since that is what Nintendo wants. Now I have no idea if he is directing or not but if he is involved then I am certain he has some sort of say on the matter. And again I don't have it quoted but Sakurai did express his disappointment with the speed and pacing of Smash 4's competitive play during those tournaments in Japan. And remember, whether Sakurai wants this game be more like Melee or not is not up to him, it's up to Nintendo, and Nintendo wants their next Smash game to have a bigger Esports draw then Melee.
 

Fuqua

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#3
I think the competitive scene matters much more than most people here are willing to give it credit for. Many many games, and a lot of fighting games especially, are being made for the most part with an hardcore audience in mind. Since smash, and especially melee, have already proven their viability for competitive play, it certainly wouldnt be unwise to throw this community a couple bones i think.

Now heres the thing, while i wholeheartedly agree with you that melee is the better competitive game, whose to say that the people at nintendo would see it that way. Smash 4 is at evo too, getting equal amounts of views. Even if they did want to chase the competitive market, its up for debate if melee style gameplay is really needed for that.

IMO smash could really satisfy two markets here without causing many issues. Melee is every bit as newbie friendly as all the other games, the skill ceiling is just much higher, and that is a good thing. Issues of casuals getting bodied online could easily get resolved with proper matchmaking. I really do believe you can please two crowds of people here. but i doubt nintendo will do it.
 

Rawkstar

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#5
Let's think back to the development of Sm4sh...we know they tried pandering to the competitive side of the community. That's not to say it was their primary focus or anywhere close to it, but they did throw the competitive fans a few bones (For Glory, balance patches, "tourney mode", etc). But at the end of the day, Smash Bros. was still above all else, designed to be a party game.

I can't help but think this will be the same story; a party game above all else.

Now, in the recent years the competitive smash scene as grown a ridiculous amount, but be honest with yourself- competitive players are a minuscule portion of the Smash Bros audience. Sure it drove some sales, but really in the grand scheme it lacks in comparison. Like it or not, Smash Bros is a means of making money. Nintendo will NEVER abandon the casual players of the game. It doesn't have the legacy or following of a game like Street Fighter where the developers are going to intentionally make it more technical or raise the barrier to entry. As much as I would love to see the restoration of L-canceling or wave-dashing or what-have-you, I don't see a future where anything close to this happens.

At the same time there is a growing spotlight on eSports, and Nintendo has made it clear that they aren't ignoring that. But as mentioned above, the seemingly less competitive Sm4sh is doing almost, if not as well as Melee in terms of viewership, and attendance. What's that say about the necessity of technicalities?

So I really don't think we'll see the revival of melee. I personally don't expect anything too different from Sm4sh. Optimistically we'll see slightly faster gameplay, less landing lag on aerials, less cooldown on smashes, etc. Maybe if we're lucky shields and rolls will be nerfed. But then again, it's all too early to say.
 
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#7
Making it closer to Melee sounds like a mistake. It still won't be Melee, so many Melee players (including most of the current top level Melee players) will stick with Melee, while the changes may scare away some Smash 4 fans. Perhaps it'll split the playerbase even further, with some sticking with Smash 4, some moving on to Smash 5, and some staying with Melee.
 

laces

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#8
Other things I found interesting-

The overall tone of the trailer is a lot more intense than any other.

The logo is animated similar to Melee.

You could say I'm reaching, but it takes a lot of planning, manpower, and decision making to make these trailers. I doubt these things are carried out mindlessly. That being said I doubt we're getting Melee 2, but I'm optimistic the competitive seen will get a lot more attention.
 
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Lyndis_

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#9
Almost definitely not happening.

However, Smash 4's mechanics with the speed of Project M with wavedashing/dash dancing would be a dream come true.

I'm not a hyper-competitive player or anything and I don't enjoy Melee, but Project M is just so much more fun to play around in than Brawl or Smash 4 are by a long shot. Mechanically, anyways.

(Just keep L-Cancelling out of it.)
 
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Morbi

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#11
I don’t wanna be that guy but there’s absolutely no chance in hell the game will be anything remotely like Melee. You should consider yourself lucky if we get real patch notes and a ranked mode.
I doubt it would be like Melee, per se; however, I do not doubt that they might take a more competitive focus. After Arms and Pokken, Nintendo is sort of getting into it and Smash is their premiere title.
 
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#12
I doubt it would be like Melee, per se; however, I do not doubt that they might take a more competitive focus. After Arms and Pokken, Nintendo is sort of getting into it and Smash is their premiere title.
I think that’s also a total pipe dream. Not once has Sakurai done anything for competitive players. He only created for Glory and the 1v1 mode because of data gathered from people who played randoms in Brawl.
 

Fuqua

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#13
I doubt it would be like Melee, per se; however, I do not doubt that they might take a more competitive focus. After Arms and Pokken, Nintendo is sort of getting into it and Smash is their premiere title.
i think theres quite a bit of confusion what it means to be "more like melee" anyway. At least for me, i dont need L-canceling, wavedashing or even dash dancing. However, Hitstun, gravity, speed and landing lag closer to melee, thats what im talking about when i say "i want it to be more like melee" and honestly that seems totally possible to happen in smash 5, but not likely i would say.
 
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R3D3MON

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#14
I think it's probably better if Smash Switch utilizes the mechanics from Smash 3DS / Wii U. I don't recall Melee ever utilizing the Autolink Angle, which is something that can help make certain looping hitboxes connect properly with their targets.
I don't think people are arguing for removing stuff from Sm4sh (except for controversial things like rage and ledge trumping), people are arguing for mechanics to be added since Sm4sh is so lackluster in that department.

I personally would love dash dancing and gliding to come back at least, as well as reduced landing lags (L-cancel or not). Wave dashing would be an unlikely blessing, but I don't see a lot of reasons why an alternative can't be in Smash 5 that doesn't increase the skill floor and alienate casuals (maybe something similar to the pivot mechanics in SSB64?).
 
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Alhobbies440

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#15
i think theres quite a bit of confusion what it means to be "more like melee" anyway. At least for me, i dont need L-canceling, wavedashing or even dash dancing. However, Hitstun, gravity, speed and landing lag closer to melee, thats what im talking about when i say "i want it to be more like melee" and honestly that seems totally possible to happen in smash 5, but not likely i would say.
This 1000%. A lot of people confuse Melee with just L-cancels and Wave Dashes, when in fact that's only a small part of it. And some of you guys don't give Sakurai enough credit when it comes to designing these games. Sakurai likes to deliver high quality content. Just an upgraded Smash 4 would honestly be a let down and everyone knows it. The last thing he wants is for this series to get stale. And I would go out on a limb and say that if the new game had everything you just mentioned I could see many Melee people crossing over to the new game. They want to cross over, it's just up to Nintendo to make it happen, and I think they will this time(don't get me wrong Melee will always have it's community but we'll probably see something similar to how other FGC's respond when a new game comes out).

Also, Melee is a very casual friendly game. It may not be as welcoming as Brawl or Smash 4 but the majority of us here had a blast with it when we first played it casually. Melee also made a lot of money, so don't think Nintendo is too scared to make their new game more like it, especially with their current Esports craze.
 

Morbi

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#16
This 1000%. A lot of people confuse Melee with just L-cancels and Wave Dashes, when in fact that's only a small part of it. And some of you guys don't give Sakurai enough credit when it comes to designing these games. Sakurai likes to deliver high quality content. Just an upgraded Smash 4 would honestly be a let down and everyone knows it. The last thing he wants is for this series to get stale. And I would go out on a limb and say that if the new game had everything you just mentioned I could see many Melee people crossing over to the new game. They want to cross over, it's just up to Nintendo to make it happen, and I think they will this time(don't get me wrong Melee will always have it's community but we'll probably see something similar to how other FGC's respond when a new game comes out).

Also, Melee is a very casual friendly game. It may not be as welcoming as Brawl or Smash 4 but the majority of us here had a blast with it when we first played it casually. Melee also made a lot of money, so don't think Nintendo is too scared to make their new game more like it, especially with their current Esports craze.
I just believe people are more or less worried that the changes will be for the worse, like tripping. Hard to trust someone when they do not seem to understand why people play competitively or believe that you have to sacrifice the casual experience to make something competitive.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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#17
I kind of think that Ledge Trumping is a positive thing to have, as some fighters heavily depend on grabbing ledges to pull off successful recoveries. Take that away, and you could end up making things worse for the fighters who are already suffering from their poor recovery options.
 
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Alhobbies440

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#18
I kind of think that Ledge Trumping is a positive thing to have, as some fighters heavily depend on grabbing ledges to pull off successful recoveries. Take that away, and you could end up making things worse for the fighters who are already suffering from their poor recovery options.
I get what you're saying but not every character should have a good recovery. It should be a big deal if you're knocked off stage(not Little Mac tier recovery of course).
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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#19
I get what you're saying but not every character should have a good recovery. It should be a big deal if you're knocked off stage(not Little Mac tier recovery of course).
Little Mac is supposed to have the worst recovery of any fighter, but if we're talking about characters like Dr. Mario and Ganondorf (who both have poor recoveries overall), grabbing a ledge could mean the difference between a successful recovery, or a TKO. Edge trumping ensures that they can make a successful recovery, assuming that they're close enough to grab the ledge.
 

Alhobbies440

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#20
Little Mac is supposed to have the worst recovery of any fighter, but if we're talking about characters like Dr. Mario and Ganondorf (who both have poor recoveries overall), grabbing a ledge could mean the difference between a successful recovery, or a TKO. Edge trumping ensures that they can make a successful recovery, assuming that they're close enough to grab the ledge.
I just meant that the majority of the cast in Smash 4 has too good of a time recovering. Little Mac's recovery was just way too extreme design wise. If the rest of the cast was brought down a few pegs then Dr. Mario and Ganondorf's recoveries wouldn't seem all that bad in comparison.
 

Caryslan

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#21
Read over that link, and I have mixed feelings. The idea of a Smash Dash sounds cool, and kinda sounds like a much more mobile version of DACUS from Brawl. Air blocking kinda sounds cool, air throws just sound like BS(I hate air throws in all fighting games, so I'll admit my bias), and I would hate to see edge guarding come back.

No wait, we already have edge guarding in Smash 4. I don't want to see edge hogging come back. I think Smash 4 benefitted from cutting out edge hogging, and forcing a player to make real effort at stopping recoveries. The funny thing is that most players tend to have far more developed edge guarding games in Smash 4 than I ever saw in Brawl online.

As for the characters, I get making Lucina an alt. But why Lucas? He plays nothing like Ness, and the only four moves he shares with Ness are PK Thunder, PK Magnet, PK Starstorm, and their forward smash. And even those moves are different. What's the point in making him an alt?
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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#22
I just meant that the majority of the cast in Smash 4 has too good of a time recovering. Little Mac's recovery was just way too extreme design wise. If the rest of the cast was brought down a few pegs then Dr. Mario and Ganondorf's recoveries wouldn't seem all that bad in comparison.
It probably is worth noting that the blast zones may be shorter as well, which can explain how most fighters have an easier time getting back on-stage. The blast zones for Melee's Final Destination are apparently quite large if certain fighters can perform their mid-air jumps and up special, and still end up receiving a TKO.

Of course, fighters in Melee fell like anchors, which adds to the recovery problems for some.
 

Alhobbies440

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#23
I just believe people are more or less worried that the changes will be for the worse, like tripping. Hard to trust someone when they do not seem to understand why people play competitively or believe that you have to sacrifice the casual experience to make something competitive.
I was aware of his design mentality which is why I said "to an extent", lol. I don't agree with it but hey, he does such a good job in just about every other aspect of the game you can't really hate him for it.

No wait, we already have edge guarding in Smash 4. I don't want to see edge hogging come back. I think Smash 4 benefitted from cutting out edge hogging, and forcing a player to make real effort at stopping recoveries. The funny thing is that most players tend to have far more developed edge guarding games in Smash 4 than I ever saw in Brawl online.
I actually would like edge hogging to return but that's just me. Smash 4's ledge mechanics make the games last too long for me.
 
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#24
This 1000%. A lot of people confuse Melee with just L-cancels and Wave Dashes, when in fact that's only a small part of it. And some of you guys don't give Sakurai enough credit when it comes to designing these games. Sakurai likes to deliver high quality content. Just an upgraded Smash 4 would honestly be a let down and everyone knows it. The last thing he wants is for this series to get stale.
I get what you’re saying... But I still don’t see even simple things like significantly more gravity or hitstun happening.

The thing is that Sakurai went in this direction to begin with. Obviously he was more satisfied with how Brawl was because Smash 4 wasn’t really a massive upheaval either. He’s found a butterzone.

There will be some changes and additions to be sure, but to assume they’ll make it more like Melee after they got away from it to begin with... It doesn’t make any sense.
 

Alhobbies440

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#25
I get what you’re saying... But I still don’t see even simple things like significantly more gravity or hitstun happening.

The thing is that Sakurai went in this direction to begin with. Obviously he was more satisfied with how Brawl was because Smash 4 wasn’t really a massive upheaval either. He’s found a butterzone.

There will be some changes and additions to be sure, but to assume they’ll make it more like Melee after they got away from it to begin with... It doesn’t make any sense.
I hear you but Nintendo calls the shots this time and they liked what they saw at Evo with Melee's numbers(I mean seriously it's been almost 20 years and it's beating their new game, heck most new fighting games for that matter). It's clear they want to get on the community's good graces to help promote the new game for Esports. And in all honesty the big execs at Nintendo couldn't give a fart about what mechanics are in the new game just so long as it helps sell the product. They probably just told Sakurai and the developers to "make the game more appealing to the Melee/competitive crowd", which then Sakurai would be forced to abide by.
 

laces

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#27
I just believe people are more or less worried that the changes will be for the worse, like tripping. Hard to trust someone when they do not seem to understand why people play competitively or believe that you have to sacrifice the casual experience to make something competitive.
This is one of my bigger worries. Since the competitive depth of Melee was an accident, I'm not sure how much SoccerDaddy really understands. Hopefully Nintendo's newfound self awareness will prove me wrong.

No wait, we already have edge guarding in Smash 4. I don't want to see edge hogging come back. I think Smash 4 benefitted from cutting out edge hogging, and forcing a player to make real effort at stopping recoveries. The funny thing is that most players tend to have far more developed edge guarding games in Smash 4 than I ever saw in Brawl online.
Edge hogging seems to one of the more divisive mechanics. I personally find it adds an extra layer of depth, but I get why others might not like it. If they do gear towards the competitive crowd, I wonder if they'll give you an option to turn things off? Mario Aces makes me think it's not out of the realm of possibility.
 
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Lyndis_

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#28
Edge trumping is one of those things I'm completely neutral on.

If they bring back edge hogging, I'm fine with that. If they keep edge trumping instead, that's cool too. They both work in the games they're in, so whatever Nintendo decides is best for the gameplay of Smash 5 is fine by me.

I have a strong feeling edge trumping isn't going anywhere regardless, though.
 
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#29
I hear you but Nintendo calls the shots this time and they liked what they saw at Evo with Melee's numbers(I mean seriously it's been almost 20 years and it's beating their new game, heck most new fighting games for that matter). It's clear they want to get on the community's good graces to help promote the new game for Esports. And in all honesty the big execs at Nintendo couldn't give a fart about what mechanics are in the new game just so long as it helps sell the product. They probably just told Sakurai and the developers to "make the game more appealing to the Melee/competitive crowd", which then Sakurai would be forced to abide by.
No, they wouldn’t do that. Nintendo execs don’t just butt in and interfere, especially with a veteran developer like Sakurai.

Really, why try and cook the golden goose? Why disturb Sakurai or the game itself?
 

Caryslan

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#31
I hear you but Nintendo calls the shots this time and they liked what they saw at Evo with Melee's numbers(I mean seriously it's been almost 20 years and it's beating their new game, heck most new fighting games for that matter). It's clear they want to get on the community's good graces to help promote the new game for Esports. And in all honesty the big execs at Nintendo couldn't give a fart about what mechanics are in the new game just so long as it helps sell the product. They probably just told Sakurai and the developers to "make the game more appealing to the Melee/competitive crowd", which then Sakurai would be forced to abide by.

Why does Nintendo need any help selling Smash Bros when the numbers for Brawl and 3DS/Wii U are well above Melee's sales numbers?

Let's take a look at this, shall we?

Melee's recorded sales on the Gamecube stand at 7 million copies

Brawl's recorded sales numbers on the Wii stand at 13.25 million copies

Smash Bros for Nintendo 3DS's sales numbers stand at 9 million copies sold

Smash Bros for Wii U's sales numbers stand at 5 million copies sold. The combined numbers for Smash 3DS and Wii U total about 14 million sold.

So, in terms of sales numbers each Smash Bros game(barring the Wii U version) have seen an increase in the total number of copies sold since Melee. Even in the case of the WIi U version, its lower sales can be explained by the fact that the Wii U sold poorly compared to the Gamecube, and the 3DS version likely cannibalized its sales. Smash fans who would normally opt for a Nintendo console to play the latest Smash likely picked the cheaper 3DS version to play Smash 4. That, combined with the 3DS's larger and stronger library likely kept Smash Wii U from reaching its full potential in terms of sales numbers.

But what is the lesson here? That despite Melee's status as the "holy grail" of the series in terms of gameplay, the sales numbers for Smash games following it has in fact increased. Plus, Melee is a nearly 20-year old game. You have an entire generation of gamers who played Brawl or Smash 4 as their first Smash game. To them, those games are just as important to them as Melee is to older fans.

I can already tell the counterargument will be that sales numbers alone don't define the success of a game. Smash for Wii U might have sold more copies, but Melee's presence in tournaments ensures it will get noticed by Nintendo, who have embraced esports in recent years.

That is a fine argument, but it is flawed in many ways. Street Fighter V has been the top game at Evo 2016 and Evo 2017 in terms of entrants and even had the most viewers of any game at Evo in 2017 when the top eight attracted 4.57 million viewers. But despite all this success in esports, Street Fighter V has struggled at retail, with the game barely making it to two million copies sold two years after it was released.

So, while esports are no doubt a large and fairly lucrative market, its still much smaller than the casual market which likely has a good number of players who have never played Melee.

But here's some more food for thought. People often claim that Melee draws in more players at tournaments and is more popular then Smash 4 in that regard.

So, here is the top three games in terms of entrants at Evo 2015 through Evo 2017. Evo 2015 is the first Evo for Smash Bros for Wii U.

First up, here's Evo 2015's top 3 games in terms of entrants.

Ultra Street Fighter IV: 2257

Super Smash Bros for Wii U: 1926

Super Smash Bros Melee: 1869


Here are the numbers for Evo 2016.

Street Fighter V: 5065

Super Smash Bros for Wii U: 2637

Super Smash Bros Melee: 2350


Now, here's the numbers for Evo 2017

Street Fighter V: 2622

Super Smash Bros for Wii U: 1515

Super Smash Bros Melee: 1435

So, what do these numbers tell us? Well, that Street Fighter is without a doubt the king of Evo, but that is irrelevant to this discussion.

For three years in a row, Smash Wii U has attracted more players then Melee has. Now, to be fair to Melee, its numbers are very impressive for an almost 20-year old game that was on a system that was mildly popular at best. It's impressive, no, it's unbelievable that Melee has been able to retain such numbers after so long.

But this also shatters the illusion that Melee draws more players then Smash 4. If anything, Smash 4 should be what Nintendo bases the next Smash Brothers on given it not only has sold more copies when you combine the 3DS and Wii U versions, but Smash Wii U has been only behind Street Fighter three years in a row.

They already have a bigger esports draw then Melee if Evo is anything to go by.
 
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#34
I mean Smash 5 is obviously going to be more tailored towards competitive play to a certain extent just because the casual meta is entirely different than the 1v1 meta. If Sakurai honestly didn't care about the competitive aspect; he wouldn't have added balance patches in Smash4 that nerfed and buffed various characters. Notice how nearly ALL the top tiers in the game have gotten nerfed over time such as
:rosalina::4diddy::4sheik::4zss::4sonic::4bayonetta2::4cloud2::4greninja:(RIP 3DS Greninja):4metaknight::4luigi: and various characters perceived as weak have gotten buffs.

The patches was obviously throwing the bone towards the competitive crowd because even though Sakurai intentionally gutted Brawl competitive aspect due to his animosity towards Melee; I do believe he is acknowledging the merits and potential of competitive Smash. The things the community really need to be pushing for is an option to turn stage hazards off, and more hit-stun / weaker shields. I really do think Sakurai feels some type of way with Melee still thriving as a community anyway. Imagine if we were left with pre-patch 3ds Sheik, Diddy Kong, Rosalina, Greninja, Sonic, Bayo, Cloud, Meta Knight, Luigi. It would be Brawl all over again.
 
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R3D3MON

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#35
Protip: Balance patches don't really indicate that Sakurai cared about competitive play. In fact, I would argue Sakurai's balance patches for Sm4sh hurt the game's competitive longevity by actively removing mechanics and severely reducing the powers of characters across the board (except for notable buffs to some heavies).
 
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Shady Shaymin

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#36
How would you guys feel if there was some less centralizing but easy to execute alternative to wavedashing? I'm thinking something around the distance of a perfect pivot, maybe a bit longer. You can execute it by buffering any grounded move during a roll, somewhere within the first couple of frames of the roll input. You lose invulnerability from the roll and instead do something of a backstep/forward step animation with a minimal but still punishable window of lag, and then the buffered move is performed during the slide. I think this would be a nice way of allowing for more nuanced spacing in the game, but also make it more accessible and feel less "unintentional" than a wavedash.

I think our best case scenario is scripted, deliberately programmed alternatives to old melee advanced techniques that are easier to execute but very slightly more punishable.
 
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#37
Protip: Balance patches don't really indicate that Sakurai cared about competitive play. In fact, I would argue Sakurai's balance patches for Sm4sh hurt the game's competitive longevity by actively removing mechanics and severely reducing the powers of characters across the board (except for notable buffs to some heavies).
If you honestly believe the balance patches wasn't a nod towards the competitive scene when all the top tiers people complained about got touched than I honestly cannot help you or see the argument for them tweaking characters on multiple patches. Sakurai obviously does care about the competitive scene to some degree regardless on how you perceive it, he even went to a Japan Tournament that had Nairo and Abadango in it and made some sentiments on how it played; those balance patches was a way to communicate to the community for him to say "I hear you". You can argue the effectiveness of his approach to the competitive scene, but to put off balance patches is just ignoring a central part of the equation especially since other "official fighting games" have balance patches too.

You also taking my comment out of context. I have stated that he acknowledges the competitive community to a degree (you don't have to completely care or care at all about a subject to acknowledge it); not that he fully welcomes the competitive community. I used the balance patches and what they affected in the competitive aspect of the game to support my reasoning that yes, Sakurai does have some room for competitive smash in his heart. I also find that pro-tip remark offensive too especially since it's really bizarre to argue that balance patches isn't a indicator that competitive smash has some room in the development team. In fact, I can argue that Sakurai does care to some extent while MOSTLY acknowledging the competitive scene.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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#38
Protip: Balance patches don't really indicate that Sakurai cared about competitive play. In fact, I would argue Sakurai's balance patches for Sm4sh hurt the game's competitive longevity by actively removing mechanics and severely reducing the powers of characters across the board (except for notable buffs to some heavies).
Let's not forget the senseless nerfs that Dedede received. Also, it is rather baffling how the balance patches hardly do anything for the Final Smashes; the only notable adjustment to a Final Smash that I'm truly aware of is the nerfing of Dedede Burst's knockback strength, which made it easy for most fighters to escape before it even finishes.
 

R3D3MON

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#39
Let's not forget the senseless nerfs that Dedede received. Also, it is rather baffling how the balance patches hardly do anything for the Final Smashes; the only notable adjustment to a Final Smash that I'm truly aware of is the nerfing of Dedede Burst's knockback strength, which made it easy for most fighters to escape before it even finishes.
Exactly. And let's not forget things like Shadow Sneak Cancel being removed entirely, as well as the ability to use c-stick for tilts while holding an item (serious nerfs to characters with item play meta, e.g. Link/TL). And of course there is much more that I can add on to this list but I digress.

I think Sakurai actually was thinking of the competitive crowd when the game was initially released in 3DS/Wii U, but he was much too influenced by hordes of people (at all levels of play, but most notably the lower-level semi-competitive crowd, a.k.a. "scrubs") screaming and yelling like children for nerfs for anything that was remotely "too janky/unfair/cheesy/etc".

And yes I was guilty of this for a while as well (my god I was screaming for sheik nerfs when she still had her 50/50 from d-throw), so it is all too sad and alarming to see this cycle still continuing with ZSS, Bayo, Cloud, etc.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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#40
The removal of chain grabs definitely made some fighters feel much less cheap to use during certain match-ups. You'd instead have to resort to a follow-up attack, but some fighters suffer from too much ending lag with their throws to even get a follow-up in.
 
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