Why this will be the next Melee(to an extent)

What do you think will be the case?


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DNeon

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As far as edge hogging and dash dancing are concerned, to any melee players: Think not about how it let you play the game, think about what it stopped. No heavies were going to have any chance of being good in that system, and the only type of recovery that was posible to use were ones with hitboxes, or extensive directional options. Dash dancing also prevents a lot of the footsies, and is a large part of what made it the heavily read based game it is. That in itself is very divisive (look at Street Fighter V).

As far as why melee continued to succeed? Brawl was ****, plain and simple. It was a fun party game for nintendo fans so it still sold well, but if how terribly slow and laggy it was didn't kill it already there was random ****ing tripping. So Melee continued to be the only game of its type worth taking seriously, and it went unchallenged for 13 years. In this time you have a community that insulates itself; isolated from similar fanbases because the FGC can be toxic as hell, isolated from many newcomers because it relied on increasingly scarce technology, and isolated from the developers because they want to push new products. So the community feeds into itself. Despite the game having blatant balance problems and physically taxing or even painful gameplay, the community can't move on without essentially giving up the genre. And that insulation has now made a lot of Melee fans genuinely feel like they're the majority, which is fairly blatantly not the case, I'm sorry but justify the statistics all you want Smash has continued to grow.
 
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spinalwolf

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If they do make a more fast paced and offensive oriented game with longer hit stun, that'd be absolutely amazing. I really don't want to see l-cancelling make a return however. Just make the hit stun last longer and characters have less end lag. L-cancelling literally adds nothing to the game other than having to press an additional button at an exact time just to reduce end lag on aerials. Though highly unlikely, I think it'd be pretty cool to see wave dashing make a return. Wave dashing provided more movement options and made the game even more fast paced. Keep ledge trumping though. Edge hogging is cheap and isn't that impressive from a spectator perspective. I would much rather be forced to edge guard.
 
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Things that Smash 4 needs to improve on compared to melee. ( Smash 4 scene has been decreasing)

1.) Rage - This mechanic is absolutely stupid in the competitive aspect that allows for the player with the higher percent to kill characters much earlier than they should by either random smash attacks/ aerials or ladder combos (ZSS/Mario/etc.) Watching a set of Mr.R dying at 58% due to Mario having rage and uair-comboing into rage UP-B is exactly why rage is awful.

2.) Rolling/Shields/ - Defensive play is still very good in this game (in some aspects, too good) which slows down the pace of the game and allows for characters to not really exert pressure per say; this needs to be nerfed in smash 5

3.) Air-dodges - This really needs to be nerfed in some type of way; watching people just spam airdodges without little consequence is not good; yes you can read air-dodges but it's not exactly punishable; the risk-reward is skewed towards the person who air-dodges.

4.) Lag / Techs - Sakurai should at least implement some character techs, universal techs or try to give characters more valid options instead of this iteration. It took multiple patches to address characters frame data and there are many more characters who need better frame data otherwise they lose to defensive options which leads to point 2 again

5.) Struggle to Kill on numerous characters while others have easy-baked set-ups (DK; Bowser; Ness/ Mewtwo). I really want to stress this point because along with rage; this allows for some MU to completely stupid just because how polarizing it can be which also makes some characters just feel super good in some MU while getting bodied in others which developers should try to avoid. Even ZSS / Bayo / Diddy Kong can take a long time to close a stock which just further validates point 2.)

Overall; the game can be more competitive mostly by just nerfing the strong defensive options that Smash 4 has in shields/rolling/ air-dodges which would allow for characters to punish harder across the entire cast. We must remember; that it took NUMEROUS patches to make Smash 4 what it is today. When this game first came out on WII U; killing was much easier for some characters such as :4sheik::4diddy::4sonic::4luigi::4zss::4metaknight: which allowed for the flow of play to feel faster. Now while these characters have gotten their kill options nerfed while others did get buffed; the only two that stood-out from the buffs were :4mewtwo:and :4marth:.

Smash 4 while much better than Brawl in terms of competitive longevity still has some core issues which hopefully can be ironed out. You don't need wave-dashing or dash-dancing (although I would love for dash-dancing to return) in order to make Smash competitive; you just need to make offensive play and the advantage state more rewarding (stronger conversions) and across the cast universally.
 
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At least you can't air dodge immediately while in hitstun anymore. In terms of dodging as a whole, decreasing the intangible frame period would be the best bet for nerfing that tactic.
This is true. I certainly don't want to go back to the days of 64 where there was no air dodging lol. I think it'd be best to make air dodging similar to how it was in Melee. At the same time, I'd personally love the game to play more like 64 though (minus the massive hitstun, limited throws and lack of air dodging). Only Smash game I play on the regular.
 
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If you're dying a dozen different ways and the edgehogging is what throws you into a tantrum, you're being a baby. Turn on infinite lives and get over it. Or play with different people. Or play on a casual mode. Or play a character with better recovery. It seems like a shame to axe an entirely fair mechanic just to please a small subset of people that get savagely pissed about this.

Is it anymore braindead than chucking a bunch of insta-kill items?

It forces the player on stage to remain proactive if they want an early kill. It requires timing so you don't get hit while pulling it off. It makes being offstage more treacherous, which imo you shouldn't be rewarded for being knocked off stage anyways. Without it you just lose another layer of strategy. That's the last I'm going to say of it 'cause this conversation is about to go in circles. Agree to disagree.
Edgehogging isn’t this untouchable bastion of good game design. I mean obviously, considering it was gutted.

Items can be disabled. Edgehogging can’t. (Well it could but we all know it’ll never happen.)

Yeah sure buddy. It’s a trash mechanic that reduces offstage play to grabbing a ledge at the right time. It died a rightful death.

Nintendo wants the Melee crowd to drop it in favor of the new game but the only way to do that is to make the new game more appealing to them.
Why risk it when there’s the Smash 4 crowd to target? Smash 4 blew away Melee’s number of entrants many many times... I don’t know if that trend continued to today but if Nintendo legitimately supported it, it would be even stronger.
 

Enchess

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This thread reminds me why I can't stand hardcore Melee fans. Do some of you realize how much you sound like jerks?

As someone who has exclusively played casually and with casual players, I can say definitively that casual players care about gravity, speed, edge-hogging, etc.

And don't give me that "why care about edge-hogging if there's cheap stage hazards and items?". Casual players use the custom item select. I play 90% of the time with no items and have a custom item set for the rest of the time. Our friend group always had a set stage list that we regularly debated because of disagreement over whether a stage 'felt' fair (I fought for Spear Pillar and never won). We also all hate tripping with a passion and hugely preferred Project M over Brawl (yes, casuals like Project M more than Brawl too). We also had serious issues with Melee. The balance in that game is horrendous from a casual perspective. Nobody ever won in our group if they played as Bowser or DK for example. Just never happened. Now, obviously this issue persisted in Brawl.

Guess what else? People who don't even play video games notice this stuff. I remember showing Melee to someone who had never played games before and them complaining about edge-hogs and asking if there was a way to turn off bob-ombs. Seriously, the girl didn't play games at all and noticed this stuff.

TL;DR: You all need to stop acting like casual players are idiots who have no right to input into what Smash should or shouldn't be like. Lots of casuals think edge-hogging in Melee and floatiness in Brawl make the games worse, even ones who have never played a Smash game before can and will notice these things.
 

tecmo

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This thread reminds me why I can't stand hardcore Melee fans. Do some of you realize how much you sound like jerks?

As someone who has exclusively played casually and with casual players, I can say definitively that casual players care about gravity, speed, edge-hogging, etc.

And don't give me that "why care about edge-hogging if there's cheap stage hazards and items?". Casual players use the custom item select. I play 90% of the time with no items and have a custom item set for the rest of the time. Our friend group always had a set stage list that we regularly debated because of disagreement over whether a stage 'felt' fair (I fought for Spear Pillar and never won). We also all hate tripping with a passion and hugely preferred Project M over Brawl (yes, casuals like Project M more than Brawl too). We also had serious issues with Melee. The balance in that game is horrendous from a casual perspective. Nobody ever won in our group if they played as Bowser or DK for example. Just never happened. Now, obviously this issue persisted in Brawl.

Guess what else? People who don't even play video games notice this stuff. I remember showing Melee to someone who had never played games before and them complaining about edge-hogs and asking if there was a way to turn off bob-ombs. Seriously, the girl didn't play games at all and noticed this stuff.

TL;DR: You all need to stop acting like casual players are idiots who have no right to input into what Smash should or shouldn't be like. Lots of casuals think edge-hogging in Melee and floatiness in Brawl make the games worse, even ones who have never played a Smash game before can and will notice these things.
Wow. you hate people and call them jerks because they want some of melees mechanics to return in smash 5? That’s pathetic. Quote someone remotely implying in this thread that casuals are idiots. I’ll wait.
 
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R3D3MON

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Wow. you hate people and call them jerks because they want some of melees mechanics to return in smash 5? That’s pathetic. Quote someone remotely implying in this thread that casuals are idiots. I’ll wait.
I can't believe this mod bias. Who is the mod that flagged this perfectly reasonable callout post?
 

R3D3MON

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Being floaty does have its advantages. As bad as Ganondorf's recovery is, falling slower than in Melee at least makes it easier for him to get back on-stage.
Oh, I wasn't saying being floaty is necessarily a bad thing, I was just pointing out that casual players liking Smash 4 over Brawl so much because of Brawl's "floatiness" doesn't really make sense or add up when Smash 4 is still very floaty.
 
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Thatboyjojo

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First off I don't think this is a port. I could be wrong, but this isn't a port.

Now recently Nintendo has been making an effort for their games to be in the headlines of Esports. We saw that in E3 last year with their Splatoon 2 and ARMS competitions so I expect this E3 to have a big Smash Bros. competition(which is their biggest Esports game). They know Melee is popular, they know about those crazy Melee Evo numbers, and since Esports is part of their business model now they're going to pull a lot of inspiration from that game. I'm telling you that they are going to try and capitalize off of that Melee crowd. Here is a link to IGN briefly talking about Nintendo, Smash, and Esports.


Here is a link to a 4chan post(I know it's 4chan but hear me out). Now I'm not saying this is in any way credible but I'm not saying it isn't either since they predicted the teaser and inklings. What I do find amusing is the essence of what they are saying just makes too much sense with the monetary mindset Nintendo has right now. Cutting back on characters to flesh out the ones you already have at launch in favor of more focus on competitive gameplay(keep in mind that they could make major cuts to the roster and then release them as DLC later on, we know it's possible since they already did it with Smash 4). Now I have no opinion on Air Grabs/Guarding and what not(but if you do please discuss them below!) but the "Smash-Dash" definitely has my attention because that would be a direct answer to a complaint Sakurai had during a Smash 4 tournament he attended in Japan. I wish I had the quote but he basically criticized the underutilization of smash attacks, saying something to the effect of it being boring to watch because the competitors hardly use them.


Now as for Sakurai. We all know that Sakurai takes great pride in his work and given his track record with the series I don't think Smash 5 will just be an "upgraded" Smash 4 in the sense of having a similar but upgraded gameplay and mechanics(like Smash 4 was to Brawl). I believe he is going to really shake things up and make the game his version of an "upgraded Melee", essentially his "answer" to the FGC of Smash since that is what Nintendo wants. Now I have no idea if he is directing or not but if he is involved then I am certain he has some sort of say on the matter. And again I don't have it quoted but Sakurai did express his disappointment with the speed and pacing of Smash 4's competitive play during those tournaments in Japan. And remember, whether Sakurai wants this game be more like Melee or not is not up to him, it's up to Nintendo, and Nintendo wants their next Smash game to have a bigger Esports draw then Melee.
Man I would love that ! I hope you're right i never played melee competitively bcuz I was a kid when melee was released but I hopped on it years later after I learned about all the crazy tech n fell in love with it every smash needs to be built off of melees mechanics

This is true. I certainly don't want to go back to the days of 64 where there was no air dodging lol. I think it'd be best to make air dodging similar to how it was in Melee. At the same time, I'd personally love the game to play more like 64 though (minus the massive hitstun, limited throws and lack of air dodging). Only Smash game I play on the regular.
Amen brother I love smash 64 hit stun , that game is so combo friendly It can be more exciting to watch than melee at times
 
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Amen brother I love smash 64 hit stun , that game is so combo friendly It can be more exciting to watch than melee at times
I don't love the hitstun there at all lol. You might have misread my statement. I don't mind the hitstun there mind you, but I certainly wouldn't mind greater hitstun to make the game a bit more combo friendly and create a bit more true combos. I've played 64 so often, I have no problem with it's hitstun, but it's understandable why people would.
 

KEYLIME SSB

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Really all this boils down to is what gameplay the devs will want to include. Faster all around running speed and limited airdodges will definitely help. I know Sakurai was disappointed when he saw the slow competetive play, so why not try to capitalize on the Melee market? The popularity and PR image of competetive Melee far outpaces all the other games by far, and they now have the judgement to make the money decisions and make it a whole lot faster.
 

Ahm Skittish!

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There should be a new option in the poll; something like "A bit of both", or something along those lines.
Even if I did change the poll, many people wouldn't know to revote either. It doesn't really help much at this point. Topic's been going way too long. That said, many already do voice their opinion about that factor, so it effectively works out anyway.

Sometimes it being a Discussion is all you need~
 
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Really all this boils down to is what gameplay the devs will want to include. Faster all around running speed and limited airdodges will definitely help. I know Sakurai was disappointed when he saw the slow competetive play, so why not try to capitalize on the Melee market? The popularity and PR image of competetive Melee far outpaces all the other games by far, and they now have the judgement to make the money decisions and make it a whole lot faster.
Uh, no. When Sakurai saw competitive play he decided to nerf that **** into the ground. Like how MK lost his ladder combo immediately after he watched that tournament.

He’s not going to capitalize on the Melee market. He’s going to target the casual market almost exclusively like he always does.
 

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Really all this boils down to is what gameplay the devs will want to include. Faster all around running speed and limited airdodges will definitely help. I know Sakurai was disappointed when he saw the slow competetive play, so why not try to capitalize on the Melee market? The popularity and PR image of competetive Melee far outpaces all the other games by far, and they now have the judgement to make the money decisions and make it a whole lot faster.
Faster, but definitely shouldn't just emulate Melee either. The competitive market is highly popular and Sakurai knows it. He clearly capitalized on it with Smash 4 itself, making sure to have a proper balancing team, and removing tons of problematic gameplay with various patches. It's clearly geared more towards competitive play than Brawl ever could be.

He didn't ignore casual play either, which was a good thing. Smash has gotten way too defensive and simply needs to make the shields a bit weaker and while multi-air dodging isn't inherently bad, it's a bit much. Maybe don't have you go into autofall but can make other moves, like after Sonic's Up B. Besides that, two air dodges is pretty fair. Any more possible makes it too difficult to KO and eliminates balance from that alone. I can't think of many other good balance ideas at this point, though. Auto L-Cancelling would be cool, but it's better to just lower lag on bigger moves, but find a way to affect everyone equally without making us use a button, which while it takes no major skill to do so, still makes it pointless since you pretty much have no reason not to use the tech itself. On the other hand, stuff like Teching(as in the actual tech) isn't always the best move to make, as you can let yourself get some invincibility frames while rolling after laying on the ground, making it a balanced idea in practice.

Coming from someone who actually never had an issue with L-Cancelling, I don't believe it would improve the game at this point. And despite missing it, I'd rather improve the game overall in some way. The best we had since Melee was a custom equipment that reduced Landing Lag. This doesn't help overall since custom equipment isn't allowed in competitive play. And obviously doing something like "alternate gameplay methods"(Melee/Brawl Mechanics change) is unfeasible due to way too much development work. So it's fairly hard to fix the landing lag issue at this point. Best I can think of is to just reduce landing lag on certain moves among everyone, to actually make them an overall balanced character. Maybe a bit less landing lag on heavy and slow characters, and a bit more on faster to balance it out overall. Not sure that alone would work, since while the concept is sound, it's obviously not remotely simple even then.
 

TheMagicalKuja

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Uh, no. When Sakurai saw competitive play he decided to nerf that **** into the ground. Like how MK lost his ladder combo immediately after he watched that tournament.

He’s not going to capitalize on the Melee market. He’s going to target the casual market almost exclusively like he always does.
So are you saying that nerfing anything is a sign that Sakurai hates competitive Smash?

Pack it up folks you should have just let pre-patch Bayo keep existing lol
 

KEYLIME SSB

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Faster, but definitely shouldn't just emulate Melee either. The competitive market is highly popular and Sakurai knows it. He clearly capitalized on it with Smash 4 itself, making sure to have a proper balancing team, and removing tons of problematic gameplay with various patches. It's clearly geared more towards competitive play than Brawl ever could be.

He didn't ignore casual play either, which was a good thing. Smash has gotten way too defensive and simply needs to make the shields a bit weaker and while multi-air dodging isn't inherently bad, it's a bit much. Maybe don't have you go into autofall but can make other moves, like after Sonic's Up B. Besides that, two air dodges is pretty fair. Any more possible makes it too difficult to KO and eliminates balance from that alone. I can't think of many other good balance ideas at this point, though. Auto L-Cancelling would be cool, but it's better to just lower lag on bigger moves, but find a way to affect everyone equally without making us use a button, which while it takes no major skill to do so, still makes it pointless since you pretty much have no reason not to use the tech itself. On the other hand, stuff like Teching(as in the actual tech) isn't always the best move to make, as you can let yourself get some invincibility frames while rolling after laying on the ground, making it a balanced idea in practice.

Coming from someone who actually never had an issue with L-Cancelling, I don't believe it would improve the game at this point. And despite missing it, I'd rather improve the game overall in some way. The best we had since Melee was a custom equipment that reduced Landing Lag. This doesn't help overall since custom equipment isn't allowed in competitive play. And obviously doing something like "alternate gameplay methods"(Melee/Brawl Mechanics change) is unfeasible due to way too much development work. So it's fairly hard to fix the landing lag issue at this point. Best I can think of is to just reduce landing lag on certain moves among everyone, to actually make them an overall balanced character. Maybe a bit less landing lag on heavy and slow characters, and a bit more on faster to balance it out overall. Not sure that alone would work, since while the concept is sound, it's obviously not remotely simple even then.
Really it’s not about the tech skill ceiling itself it’s about the movement speed and match pacing that the tech allowed to happen in Melee, which you don’t see at all anymore in 4. More than anything, we really need more movement options available.
 

RandomAce

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I dont think Smash 5 should emulate like Melee, but the amount of movement options melee had. One of the things that made Melee continue to this day is how many options players had to move around, which is something that Smash 4 and Brawl lacked.

That is what made Melee have a high skill cealing with many different techniques people can learn and are still learning. So having more movement options will richen the metagame, allowing a game that many pro players can enjoy and invest in.

Thats pretty much what I want.
 

Ahm Skittish!

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Really it’s not about the tech skill ceiling itself it’s about the movement speed and match pacing that the tech allowed to happen in Melee, which you don’t see at all anymore in 4. More than anything, we really need more movement options available.
Pretty much, yeah.

Though I do like tech options too, but they have caused issues in the past. I get ya.
 
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So are you saying that nerfing anything is a sign that Sakurai hates competitive Smash?

Pack it up folks you should have just let pre-patch Bayo keep existing lol
Well, no. I’m saying that he doesn’t watch competitive play and thus has no particular opinion of how fast it is or how many movement options it should have. If the game was competitively dead day one he wouldn’t care if it didn’t effect casual play.
 

TheMagicalKuja

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I'm reviving this thread because I'm seeing another round of "casuals won't notice/care" about mechanics. Why does this keep cropping up?

Wow. you hate people and call them jerks because they want some of melees mechanics to return in smash 5? That’s pathetic. Quote someone remotely implying in this thread that casuals are idiots. I’ll wait.
Actually,
So what if they can feel the difference or not. There is nothing about about melee's gravity or engine that makes it hard for someone new to pick up and play and have fun.
Maybe it's more 'remote implication', but just sayin
 

Oddball

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so why not try to capitalize on the Melee market?
Because melee fans are a small ever-shrinking fragment of the base base focused on an old game on an obsolete system.

There's no reason to focus on them instead of absolutely everybody else other than the fact that melee fans tend to feel entitled.
 
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Ahm Skittish!

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Because melee fans are a small ever-shrinking fragment of the base base focused on an old game on an obsolete system.

There's no reason to focus on them instead of absolutely everybody else other than the fact that melee fans tend to feel entitled.
That applies to literally every fan of an older style. It's not that simple.

Same could be said about Paper Mario fans, Sonic Adventure(gameplay style) fans, etc. It's more the issue that while Melee is vastly popular, it is harder to get into for the majority of newer players. The advanced techs definitely split the playerbase. It's understandable to try and move the series on overall.

People will always want what they enjoyed the most. No need to split the fanbase with generalizations. It's not truly entitlement, it's just being nostalgic. Let me say something as someone who has played and enjoys every single game(and likes 64 more than Melee); I liked the Melee mechanics. Very much so. But I don't think they're coming back either. And I'm fine with that too.

See why the generalization isn't really that indicative? It's vastly inaccurate. Now, it's true there are Melee Elitists too, but there's also Brawl Elitists, same with many other games. Who look down on others for not enjoying what they like. They're an easy to ignore minority that at worst should be reported for breaking rules on the website they cause trouble on. Otherwise, they're eh.
 

SDFox

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The thing i'm worried about is sakuri just adding wave dashing and thinking to himself, "welp, finally caved into the demands" and stopping there.
Honestly I wouldnt be too mad if smash 5 just added wavedashing and nothing else, we do deserve to see what smash 4 looks like with more movement options, but thats just missing the point.

On a side note i really hope smash 5 has nothing to do with e sports beyond this invitational. E sports is a cancer spreading far to wide and hurting far too many games.
 

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The thing i'm worried about is sakuri just adding wave dashing and thinking to himself, "welp, finally caved into the demands" and stopping there.
This, totally.

It would be terrible (again) if he gave more dedicated players the For Glory/Omega Stage treatment and called it a day.
 

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The problem isn't the option of Wavedashing in itself. Just putting it in is pointless. It's not balanced around the characters at all and is too difficult to pull off. Both need to change to make is a good idea to come back. It had this issue in Melee too.
 

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The problem isn't the option of Wavedashing in itself. Just putting it in is pointless. It's not balanced around the characters at all and is too difficult to pull off. Both need to change to make is a good idea to come back. It had this issue in Melee too.
Ideally I would love to see bunch of characters with better wavedash lengths (e.g. Peach).
 

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I don't know. The separated switch joy cons seem to support a playstyle closest to the wii remote. And Brawl was the only Smash game designed with smaller controllers with more limited buttons and button placements in mind up until this point. And while I think this game won't be Brawl 2.0 with tripping or weird hitstun, I do think that this game will be slower (not Brawl levels of slow) because of this reason. I do agree that this won't be 100% Brawl as Nintendo is trying to pay more attention to the people but I think that a bit of a slower playstyle would be the most likely route with the main controller people will be using.
 

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Making it closer to Melee sounds like a mistake. It still won't be Melee, so many Melee players (including most of the current top level Melee players) will stick with Melee, while the changes may scare away some Smash 4 fans. Perhaps it'll split the playerbase even further, with some sticking with Smash 4, some moving on to Smash 5, and some staying with Melee.
I just want wavedashes. Jokes apart, we Melee players are able to play both Melee AND Smash 5. But the game has to give us a reason to play it. I'll give it a try anyway.
 

jwillenn

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 30, 2018
Messages
126
My bold prediction (aka wish) is this will infuse into core/default combat a revision of ideas from Smash 4 that were relegated to side options rather than accepted features of the standard (tournament, for glory, etc.). These ideas include (but aren't limited to) Customs and Equipment/Bonuses. With great reworking of this stuff into a deep system that increases the "playstyles and potential strategies playbook" from 10 pages to 100 pages, there will also come a means to tap into playstyles reminiscent of Melee if the player desires. This game will be "Smash", but it will feel like the most different version of the game the series has ever seen because of this. I've seriously thought out a version of this, but there are definitely other ways to arrive at this I speak of.
 

SSBBDaisy

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 24, 2007
Messages
1,374
Location
Florida
I think it's probably better if Smash Switch utilizes the mechanics from Smash 3DS / Wii U. I don't recall Melee ever utilizing the Autolink Angle, which is something that can help make certain looping hitboxes connect properly with their targets.
Says the person who's main character's Jab doesn't link with a lot of characters.

Anyways I hope it's nothing like tr4sh.
 
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