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Why the Melee/Brawl Debate is Meaningless

Corigames

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
Messages
5,817
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Tempe, AZ
Coreygames, I don't think I've read a single post of yours that doesn't make you look like a total douche bag...
And since this is the only one of yours I've seen, then I can only assume you are a whiny ***** who only looks at 1/4 of people's posts and makes ******** assumptions in an effort to insult me on a post that what I said was just my complete feelings, not directed in any rude manner towards anyone expect, obviously, Sakurai, and you have a ****ing problem with that?

Go tug your ****er to your reflection you self-glorifying piece of shame ridden, scrub bound, newb.
 

Jeremy Feifer

Jeremy Feifer
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
1,530
Location
Mexico
It's obvious; if you came here for Brawl, you are going to play Brawl.

However, if you came here to play competitive smash because of Brawl, you should at least consider Melee.

Also, if you played Melee competitively... how an you live with yourself when playing Brawl? I can't even try anymore.
Yo coreygames... were is your avatar from? I saw that on MGO.

Also,
Agreed. Its really funny to me how people try to make a game competitive that is specifically made to not be. The argument could be made with melee, but you have to understand Brawl is the 3rd installment in the Super Smash Series... They've had plenty time to take out just what they want to take out. The mastery period of melee... was well 5 years... and still going. The learning period for Brawl is about... 1 year tops. I'm referring to how much knowledge or new tricks can keep coming from the game. Melee looks like its played differently every year its out... I mean have you seen the recent Dashiz vs. M2K matches...? Brawl however will be played the exact sae way forever. Thats what the creator wanted.
 

EvolveOrDie

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
71
Location
Raleigh, NC
Agreed. Its really funny to me how people try to make a game competitive that is specifically made to not be. The argument could be made with melee, but you have to understand Brawl is the 3rd installment in the Super Smash Series... They've had plenty time to take out just what they want to take out. The mastery period of melee... was well 5 years... and still going. The learning period for Brawl is about... 1 year tops. I'm referring to how much knowledge or new tricks can keep coming from the game. Melee looks like its played differently every year its out... I mean have you seen the recent Dashiz vs. M2K matches...? Brawl however will be played the exact sae way forever. Thats what the creator wanted.
I know that melee is more competitive than brawl but completely on the theory level why is gameplay that goes exactly as the creator intended i.e. can't be broken considered bad?
 

EvolveOrDie

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
71
Location
Raleigh, NC
Ok the question is if a game plays the way the creator intended why would that be bad?
I know your upset about it not being as competitive. So I ask does the player not having the ability to play as they see fit considered a bad thing or rather that the game just wasn't meant for you?
If you weren't saying the the game is bad because I can't play it the way I want then you don't even have to respond because I was confused about what you meant.

@coreygames
Why?
 

peeup

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
1,618
Location
Hartford/Mass
And since this is the only one of yours I've seen, then I can only assume you are a whiny ***** who only looks at 1/4 of people's posts and makes ******** assumptions in an effort to insult me on a post that what I said was just my complete feelings, not directed in any rude manner towards anyone expect, obviously, Sakurai, and you have a ****ing problem with that?
Either you're retarted, you have a bad memory, or you just don't remember me (the latter is a fine excuse), but on the "Brawl will have backwards progression thread" you and I argued for a good page or two... I've seen you post before. Plus, I've seen you're posts on other various threads, and trust me, they all make you seem like a douchebag. Here's an idea for you: Respect and listen to what other people have to say--it will make you seem nicer and people will do the same to you.
 

Reaver197

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
1,287
Ok the question is if a game plays the way the creator intended why would that be bad?
I know your upset about it not being as competitive. So I ask does the player not having the ability to play as they see fit considered a bad thing or rather that the game just wasn't meant for you?
If you weren't saying the the game is bad because I can't play it the way I want then you don't even have to respond because I was confused about what you meant.

@coreygames
Why?
I'm pretty sure Sakurai didn't intend for Metaknight's infinite ledgestalling, nor all the infinite throws/grabs characters have. Or really even to be played without items.

Plus, Ed Wood made all his movies exactly the way he wanted them to be, but that doesn't save them from being bad (same with M. Night Shyamalan, lol). You can have bad ideas, theories, and design.
 

Jeremy Feifer

Jeremy Feifer
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Oct 2, 2006
Messages
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Mexico
Ok the question is if a game plays the way the creator intended why would that be bad?
I know your upset about it not being as competitive. So I ask does the player not having the ability to play as they see fit considered a bad thing or rather that the game just wasn't meant for you?
If you weren't saying the the game is bad because I can't play it the way I want then you don't even have to respond because I was confused about what you meant.

@coreygames
Why?
I never said it was a bad thing. Im saying that trying to play this game like melee will never happen and this game will always be played the same. So if you want a challenge join the fight to bring Melee back nationwide/
 

Hyper_Ridley

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2007
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2,291
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Hippo Island
So I ask does the player not having the ability to play as they see fit considered a bad thing or rather that the game just wasn't meant for you?
That's a good point. What if I said that Metal Gear Solid was bad just becuase I don't like stealth based games?
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
2,961
Location
Seattle, WA
I'm pretty sure Sakurai didn't intend for Metaknight's infinite ledgestalling, nor all the infinite throws/grabs characters have. Or really even to be played without items.

Plus, Ed Wood made all his movies exactly the way he wanted them to be, but that doesn't save them from being bad (same with M. Night Shyamalan, lol). You can have bad ideas, theories, and design.
This is a tangential question, but I'm curious to hear your response, Reaver (considering your very astute answer to EvolveOrDie's post):

Is Brawl bad? Taking all of the pros and cons into consideration, do you think Brawl was badly designed/programmed overall? Do you think the bugs we've discovered inhibit the game as a whole? Do you think the anti-Melee style of design is inherently bad, or just different?

Just out of curiosity and to get some context on your post.
 

HoChiMinhTrail

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 1, 2004
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Michigan State/Chicago, Il
This is a tangential question, but I'm curious to hear your response, Reaver (considering your very astute answer to EvolveOrDie's post):

Is Brawl bad? Taking all of the pros and cons into consideration, do you think Brawl was badly designed/programmed overall? Do you think the bugs we've discovered inhibit the game as a whole? Do you think the anti-Melee style of design is inherently bad, or just different?

Just out of curiosity and to get some context on your post.
Jack it isnt anti-melee. If it were than melee players wouldnt be dominating the scene. The game simply focuses on one style of play, whereas in melee there were many different competing styles of play.
 

Corigames

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Tempe, AZ
I've seen you post before. Plus, I've seen you're posts on other various threads, and trust me, they all make you seem like a douchebag.
I guess you just miss the page long ones where I explicitly cite every single rational thing I can think of on the topic, write in a manner worthy of a college professor, and stray from any forms of douche-baggery. I suppose your selective eye-sight just won't allow for that.

Here's an idea for you: Respect and listen to what other people have to say--it will make you seem nicer and people will do the same to you.
Like I give a **** about that.
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
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Jan 11, 2008
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Seattle, WA
Jack it isnt anti-melee. If it were than melee players wouldnt be dominating the scene. The game simply focuses on one style of play, whereas in melee there were many different competing styles of play.
The only reason I said 'anti-Melee' was because the only other phrase I can think of is 'anti-competitive', which I don't agree with because we don't agree on what makes a game 'competitive'. What I meant is the whole 'floaty, no hitstun, no combos, etc.' facet of Brawl. Basically, how Brawl is a lot of what Melee isn't.

I'm sure you know what I mean, even if I'm not conveying it well.
 

IWontGetOverTheDam

Smash Lord
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Messages
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MN
Why the Melee/Brawl Debate is Meaningless: If you like Brawl better, you like Brawl better. If you like Melee better, you like Melee better. There is not positive outcome from needless arguing.
 

Corigames

Smash Hero
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Tempe, AZ
Yeah there is, one of them may not fall off the face of the Earth in the looming shadow of the other.
 

peeup

Smash Lord
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Hartford/Mass
Like I give a **** about that.
And you don't think that you're a douchebag?!?!? Read what you just posted. If you like being annoying and having everybody hate you because you don't listen to what other people have to say, how can you not call yourself a douchebag?

Why the Melee/Brawl Debate is Meaningless: If you like Brawl better, you like Brawl better. If you like Melee better, you like Melee better. There is not positive outcome from needless arguing.
Thank God for you.
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
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Seattle, WA
peeup, can you take this to PM's please? I'd rather not have you engage in a personal p*ssing contest with coreygames in this thread; it gets off-topic enough as it is.
 

EvolveOrDie

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
71
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Raleigh, NC
I'm pretty sure Sakurai didn't intend for Metaknight's infinite ledgestalling, nor all the infinite throws/grabs characters have. Or really even to be played without items.

Plus, Ed Wood made all his movies exactly the way he wanted them to be, but that doesn't save them from being bad (same with M. Night Shyamalan, lol). You can have bad ideas, theories, and design.
I agree that I doubt those things were intentional programmed into the game, I consider them to be either programming oversights or exploits cause through unpredictable programming interaction. On the subject of items that's an iffy one because while Sakurai may not want you to play without items he acknowledges that you may want to and gives you the option. I don't think brawl is bad by any stretch of the imagination, but when you compare it to melee in the category that brawl has been proven to suffer at and melee excels at it skews the representation of both games as a whole; because while melee is more competitive than brawl is is melee more competitive than MvC2, CvSNK, GGXX, and the like and how does brawl stack up against them. We sort of willfully limit our analysis of the viable competitiveness of the two games to only each other when we use the definition that applies to more than just those two games.

@Jeremy
I realize this may sound a little like things just are what they are but you said that you can't play melee the game like melee, and you shouldn't there different games. If you meant you can't play the game competitively then that's wrong as tournaments disprove that, what the level of the competitiveness at those tournaments is purely subjective and can't be quantified.

Also I dislike when people say you can only play brawl a certain way because by that logic you can only play melee a certain way and before anyone says anything about a metagame this or a metagame that I would like to point out that a metagame is the the aspect that develops outside the game.
 

Corigames

Smash Hero
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Tempe, AZ
And you don't think that you're a douchebag?!?!? Read what you just posted. If you like being annoying and having everybody hate you because you don't listen to what other people have to say, how can you not call yourself a douchebag?
And listen to what you just said. You are wasting valuable space in this thread, de-railing the conversation, to try to libel me. Way to go. That's not douche bag in any way. I'm not a douche. I post what I want to say when I want to. I don't care what other people think or feel, especially over the internet. If you have a problem with me saying, "Brawl sucks because it sucks all the awesome out of the everything," then fine. It doesn't bother me. But if you are going to whine that I never say anything worthwhile ever, then you are the one being a douche bag. You are the one trying to dis-credit someone. You are the one flaming. Isn't that douche bag worthy? If so, then I am but you are too!

Get over yourself.
 

EvolveOrDie

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
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Raleigh, NC
I would like to point out while everyone is entitled to their opinion, I do believe it's stated somewhere in the terms of service and agreement that you don't have to care about other people's feelings you have to respect them. Which means for both sides no flaming, insulting, or doing whatever you feel like just because you can.
 

peeup

Smash Lord
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Sep 3, 2007
Messages
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Hartford/Mass
peeup, can you take this to PM's please? I'd rather not have you engage in a personal p*ssing contest with coreygames in this thread; it gets off-topic enough as it is.
He was talking to both of us, corey. I'm done, I hope you are too.

I don't think brawl is bad by any stretch of the imagination, but when you compare it to melee in the category that brawl has been proven to suffer at and melee excels at it skews the representation of both games as a whole;
Its true. If you like a really competitive game, melee is probably better for you. If you would rather play with items or have a bigger cast, brawl is probably better for you. Neither game is better then the other, but people can like one more. Its all a matter of taste.
 

Reaver197

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
1,287
This is a tangential question, but I'm curious to hear your response, Reaver (considering your very astute answer to EvolveOrDie's post):

Is Brawl bad? Taking all of the pros and cons into consideration, do you think Brawl was badly designed/programmed overall? Do you think the bugs we've discovered inhibit the game as a whole? Do you think the anti-Melee style of design is inherently bad, or just different?

Just out of curiosity and to get some context on your post.
Well, I guess I should preface by saying that my Ed Wood/Shyamalan was just to show that a product can turn out almost exactly the way it's creator wanted it to be but still be panned for it. I didn't mean to imply at all that Brawl is a bad game in the way that Ed Wood movies are bad movies.

But, boy, these are tough questions, lol. I'm going to have to gather my thoughts about this, so I might be a little while before I can properly respond. I hope I don't end up taxing your patience for too long.
 

Jack Kieser

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Well, I guess I should preface by saying that my Ed Wood/Shyamalan was just to show that a product can turn out almost exactly the way it's creator wanted it to be but still be panned for it. I didn't mean to imply at all that Brawl is a bad game in the way that Ed Wood movies are bad movies.

But, boy, these are tough questions, lol. I'm going to have to gather my thoughts about this, so I might be a little while before I can properly respond. I hope I don't end up taxing your patience for too long.
Reaver, take all the time you need. I'm glad to hear that you're going to think about your answers before you post; a lot of people would just regurgitate the same MvB arguments we've heard for months. You should be respected and applauded for taking the extra time to ponder about your response, as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, and see that post up there (#453) for my 'anti-Melee' term clarification.
 

Reaver197

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Ah, thanks for that clarification, though I was fairly sure that's what you generally meant when you said that.

Unfortunately, between work and everything I else, I'm afraid this might take a lot longer than I had originally anticipated to answer...blarghs...

And, just to make sure, you're simply wondering what my own, personal opinion is of Brawl? My brain is tearing at itself trying to see how objectively or subjectively I should answer this, lol, so I might be overanalyzing this on my end.
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
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Ah, thanks for that clarification, though I was fairly sure that's what you generally meant when you said that.

Unfortunately, between work and everything I else, I'm afraid this might take a lot longer than I had originally anticipated to answer...blarghs...

And, just to make sure, you're simply wondering what my own, personal opinion is of Brawl? My brain is tearing at itself trying to see how objectively or subjectively I should answer this, lol, so I might be overanalyzing this on my end.
I want to know what your subjective answers are, tempered by the objective facts and data you've gleaned off of SWF and from debates. Your opinion, basically. Leave the rest of us out of it; what are the conclusions you've come to?

Oh, and no rush; I have a 30 minute drive coming up before I'll have access to a computer again. :laugh:
 

Fletch

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Shablagoo!!
And you don't think that you're a douchebag?!?!? Read what you just posted. If you like being annoying and having everybody hate you because you don't listen to what other people have to say, how can you not call yourself a douchebag?
Coreygames is cooler than you
 

Wrath`

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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Binghamton, NY
Why the Melee/Brawl Debate is Meaningless: If you like Brawl better, you like Brawl better. If you like Melee better, you like Melee better. There is not positive outcome from needless arguing.
Truth, so why couldn't that have been the last post. lets end this thread, cause it is slowly going downhill....
 

Leprechaun_Drunk

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
339
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Bronx, New York
One cannot reduce Smash to an equation where its component pieces can be analyzed impartially. And, without impartiality, there's no inarguable solution. Regardless of whether one views a specific Smash game as "better for competition", "entertainment," or a combination of the two, there's no way to take personal taste out of any ranking system. It's an impossibility. So any conclusion in these Brawl vs. Melee debates is less a representation of which game is superior than it is a reflection of those who compile the arguments.

While it has been said that it can be proven that Melee is a more "competitive" game (meaning it's a more accurate way to decipher who is more skilled at smash between people), that is another useless point. If all the necessary research was done to prove Melee is more competition suitable, and (as Reaver hopes to accomplish) this research was shown to all smashers through some kind of education system, there wouldn't be very many people in the smash community who would suddenly go, "OH! Melee is much better for tournament play! Fascinating, that cleared up a lot of confusing things for me! Let's go organize a Melee tournament this Friday, instead of a Brawl tournament!" The truth is that the community would continue to develop as it has since the release of Brawl (read Jack's other thread about Brawl and Melee). Therefore, the Brawl vs. Melee debates are pointless.
 
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