Why Sheik will Return

[Fawriel]

For future reference, most of what I say is just good-natured bantering. I don't really get aggressive unless someone else does.

Now, that's... an interesting question, really.
I suppose... Smash is like a sort of gathering of famous Nintendo personalities with a few outsider guest appearances and such.
The point of the gathering is to have fun, to compare powers, just stuff like that. For that purpose, all characters have to get on a somewhat equal level and they should try to bring as much to the table as they can offer...
But in the end, it's just a gathering for the sake of fun, it should stay within certain boundaries, keep to certain rules.
If Smash breaks those rules and pulls characters completely out of character, the whole thing is kinda stained and that one part just looks really out of place. It's like a fanfic where your favourite anime character is turned gay and proceeds to make love to the Big Bad just because the nature of the story requires it. I think you can agree that this is not a pretty thing. Unless you swing that way. Or something. God. My metaphors are going to kill me one day.

Point is, Link has his TP design and he uses TP weaponry, and Zelda has her TP design and uses magic that could logically be seen as representation of the three goddesses, seeing as they are named after them, that's a plausible enough stretch. But when one character turns into an unrelated character, it's like "... okay, when did THAT happen."


EDIT: RDK, you're cool in my book. But next time you break the sequence like this, you're going in the box.

 

[RDK]

EDIT: RDK, you're cool in my book. But next time you break the sequence like this, you're going in the box.

GAH! Sorry, lol.

Although that IS what they have quote boxes for....

 

[SiD]

Well Fawriel, Zelda turning into Sheik really could be seen much the same as her other B moves. In Ocarina of Time, she turned into Sheik with the magic of the Triforce of Wisdom. Does she not still posses that in TP?

 

[Fawriel]

GAH! Sorry, lol.

Although that IS what they have quote boxes for....

Pshaw! Back in my days, we had to make our quote boxes out of live trees with our bare hands!

Well Fawriel, Zelda turning into Sheik really could be seen much the same as her other B moves. In Ocarina of Time, she turned into Sheik with the magic of the Triforce of Wisdom. Does she not still posses that in TP?

I dunno, I guess that's where interpretation just... differs. Magic is okay. She just evokes the goddesses' powers and they manifest as what's appropriate. Fair enough.
But why would she know how to "dress up as" Sheik? It's not like that's some kinda spell that would be passed down through generations or one that she had any reason for knowing, and it's arguable whether it actually makes sense for her to suddenly gain ninja skills due to the transformation. I mean, Sheik used deku nuts and vanished, but that's basically the act of throwing something and running really fast.
I guess it's a subjective thing, but that just crosses the line for me.

PS: I just realized how "Sheik" contains the word "she" and how she uses "nuts". Hah.

 

[SiD]

Well also, did you ever think Zelda isn't supposed to just represent TP Zelda? I know, I know, she looks like it. But with Link, they actually did make his moves and his look like TP. So to have Zelda look different than that would be quite silly, but that doesn't mean that her moves are based on it also.

 

[Fawriel]

Sure, it's possible, but I HOPE that she'll display some TP goodness. She had the rapiers, the light arrows... she actually did something recently. The transformation just seemed like some tacked-on gimmick that was meant to make her unique because they couldn't think of anything cool... now there are enough other characters for whom this makes more sense, so in my opinion they should just give her that **** rapier and light arrows for an FS or something and be happy that Zelda is finally a whole and good character.

 

[Your Hero]

Haven't you guys ever though of Zelda turning into Sheik being in the form of a Final Smash, Just as Samus turns into Zero Suit Samus.

Lol take that phrase above as sarcasm or not, I'm not sure what it is. :]

Also, I didn't read the whole thread, but I did read a post about someone saying "How do you know that it's the same magic as she used in ssbm".
EDIT:

Not confirmed. We don't know they're OoT attacks yet. As of right now, we've just seen her use some attacks that look like the ones she had in Melee, which (at the time) were named after attacks seen in OoT. For all we know, this could just be "Zelda magic".

She has a point, since the only magic shown on her page on DOJO is this picture.

The others don't show it.

 

[SiD]

Well Fawriel, assuming that she does only have her returning moveset instead of some coolness from TP, then would you still have a problem with her transforming into Shiek?

 

[The rAt]

SiD, if this helps illuminate the anti-Sheik perspective, looking back at the Zelda games as a series, each Zelda is a completely different entity that just happens to bear a resemblence to her ancestors, and a family name that is passed down. So when Zelda or Link is represented in a Smash Bros. game, they aren't representing every trait that has ever been displayed in their entire family history, because it's just not feasable. It's like combining Frodo Baggins and Bilbo Baggins just because they both had the same last name, and at one point possessed the Ring of power, and went on an adventure.

Including Sheik in Smash Bros. Brawl is putting her up on a pedestal and overinflating her importance in the overall series, when there are so many other, more deserving characters, but I can get over it, because I know that a lot of people like Sheik. But including her as a transformation of Zelda insults my intelligence, because it assumes I haven't followed the continuity of the game, and thus can't tell the difference between the two characters. And if you want to argue that including Sheik is a way of integrating past Zeldas (specifically OoT Zelda) into an amalgam of all Zeldas, that is your right. But if that is true, then we should be throwing out most of Zelda's moves, because right now pretty much ALL of her moves are based off of concepts established in OoT. In fact, what Zelda is right now is OoT Zelda with TP Zelda's skin pasted over hers. I mean if Zelda is supposed to represent ALL Zeldas than it would make a **** of a lot MORE sense for her to transform into a Twilight Princess version of Tetra, because so far NO part of Wind Waker has been intigrated into Brawl Zelda. And there's got to be a way to intigrate parts of the Zeldas from AoL and LttP Zeldas not to mention Oracle Zelda.

Honestly, I hate to be a Zelda snob, but the truth is part of the reason I hate the whole Sheik arguement is because it's often made by people who started playing Zelda with OoT, and think of it of the original and want to encorporate things from it into other areas it doesn't belong. Zelda has a rich history before and after OoT which is often not even touched upon, but especially so in the Smash Bros. series. If you look at the whole Zelda series, Sheik doesn't matter. She is a single sentence in the giant tome which is Hyrulian history, and a footnote in the slightly smaller tome in the Zelda character history. She could easily be replaced by an incarnation of Impa, for whom there could be several chapters devoted to in both.

But even so, it must be acknowledged that she stems from a completely different character than the one shown in Super Smash Bros. Brawl screenshots and trailers, and the arguement that Zelda is supposed to be an amalgam of ALL Zeldas does not hold up against the fact that Link is distinctly NOT an amalgam of all Links, or the fact that she holds no traits besides her appearance which are identifiable as specifically from any game besides OoT.

I've said it a bajillion times already, but I'll keep saying it; if you want Sheik in, fine. I don't like it, but I'll live with it. But including her in as a transformation of Zelda is essentially taking a big crap on every Zelda game she didn't do that in, particularly Twilight Princess, which could provide at least enough material for ONE ATTACK to replace her Sheik transformation.

In a nutshell? Including things which defy continuity doesn't bother me. Including things from OoT which defy continuity **** me off in ways you cannot fathom, because so far it's the only game in the series which is supposedly worth defying continuity to include material from. Which is basically saying that other Zelda games don't matter, or at least don't matter as much as OoT.

Oh, and Fawriel, you can go ahead and correct me if you disagree with anything I said.

EDIT: Oh, and for the reccord, I am somewhat passionate about this particular topic, and will probably continue to argue just as fervently (sp?), but that doesn't mean I disrespect you if you disagree with me.

 

[SiD]

Um, dude, I'm not gonna bother reading that huge wall o text, which is made more annoying by your stupid font. (Not to insult you, I just don't like that font)

But I've already said, continuity shouldn't matter in a Smash Bros. game, so your entire point is irrelevant to me.


Okay, read your in a nutshell paragraph. OoT is more important than other games first of all, but mostly, she already did it in Melee, which is why it's worth defying continuity for.

 

[Circus]

Um, dude, I'm not gonna bother reading that huge wall o text, which is made more annoying by your stupid font. (Not to insult you, I just don't like that font)

But I've already said, continuity shouldn't matter in a Smash Bros. game, so your entire point is irrelevant to me.


Okay, read your in a nutshell paragraph. OoT is more important than other games first of all, but mostly, she already did it in Melee, which is why it's worth defying continuity for.

SiD, you know I love you. I love you like a fat kid loves not running. But rAt presented his side of the argument so much better than you did. C'mon now. Knock that weak **** off and make an honest effort. I know you can do better.

 

[SiD]

Berkus, if you go back a page or two, I did it better. I just hate repeating myself.

 

[RDK]

SiD, you know I love you. I love you like a fat kid loves not running. But rAt presented his side of the argument so much better than you did. C'mon now. Knock that weak **** off and make an honest effort. I know you can do better.

^ Yeah, really.

SiD, the thing I like most about you is that when in a debate, you think of **** that I would never think of. I like debating as much (if not more) than anyone around, but whenever I see you in an argument, and read your posts, you come up with some of the best counters I've ever seen.

This is very uncharacteristic of you. *FROWNS*

I love how we're all pseudo-serious about a few posts, lol.

 

[SiD]

Okay, I'll try to compile everything I've said:

I don't understand people that think the Smash Bros. series has anything to do with continuity. It's a fighting game, story doesn't matter in the slightest in reference to each characters individual games, their movesets are made to be fun/unique, often times not having anything to do with ANY of their games. Honestly, Shiek transformation is a good, unique mechanic that just needs some balancing issues. There is no reason to remove it from a gameplay standpoint, so therefore, no reason to remove it from a Smash Bros. game.

From a storyline standpoint, think about it like this. The Shiekah are supposed to be the guardians of the royal family, are they not? And in OoT, Zelda transformed into Shiek using magic. Magic she got from using the triforce of Wisdom. Given that these are both still true, and what we know about Zelda being somewhat of a reincarnation of herself just as Link is, it's not that big of a stretch for TP Zelda to transform into some form that's better fit for fighting, nor is it a strectch for that transformation to be based on the Shiekah. Since we already have Shiek, why not make her transform into Shiek.


Lastly, even if not as a transformation, Shiek deserves to return because she was in Melee, she wasn't a clone, and she has a fanbase. I can vouch for that, I am a fan of Shiek, not because of her moveset or because she's good in Melee, but because I think she is a really cool alter ego to Zelda. She was really cool and mysterious in OoT, and the way she moves and attacks in Melee are very cool looking, very smooth.

So yes, Shiek should return in one of the two ways. And yes, she more than likely will.




How was that Berkus? RDK?

 

[RDK]

How was that Berkus? RDK?

That sucked harder than Richard Simmons.

 

[SiD]

Oh, that's dam cold *****.

 

[RDK]

Oh, that's dam cold *****.

Lol, just kidding. See--I think you won. He logged off because of your awesomeness.

 

[Circus]

Much better. That's the SiD I know (though I can understand the lack of desire to repeat oneself. But I'm such a stubborn mule, I usually defend myself no matter how many points I'm repeating).

Anyway, now that you've made your points again, I'd try to counter them but it would ultimately, as always, devolve back into an issue of point of view—how much you value continuity and how much you think Sheik's presence even effects continuity (in other words, this is one of those rare cases where I'm not going to mindlessly defend my side again. Hypocrisy? Irony? I'm not familiar with such terms). I can honestly say that your post did a very good job of making me understand your point of view. It makes sense. But I can't say it persuaded me to your side. Whether that's due to me genuinely believing in my side more or just the stubborn mule talking is up in the air, I guess. My guess is it's a mixture of both.

Plus, as passionate about this as rAt is, I imagine he'll come back around eventually and say everything I'd say, but more eloquently. He has a habit of doing that.

 

[KritikalError]

I think, that Shiek is cheap as rocks; THE n00biest character ever.

But I wouldn't want her to not be in the new Smash game.

 

[Firekid2]

and the arguement that Zelda is supposed to be an amalgam of ALL Zeldas does not hold up against the fact that Link is distinctly NOT an amalgam of all Links

Actually, He kinda is. His uair and dair are from Zelda 2 His intro is also from Zelda 1 or Wind Waker. (Coming in on the winds breath.)

Edit: Also, I do think that Link's Melee trophy did say something to the effect that they were aiming for Link to be rep of all Links. I'm not sure though so don't qoute me on that.

 

[omfgomfg]

Good reasoning.

 

[Black/Light]

SSB does take some liberties with the characters, but what we're talking about here is more than a little liberty. Regardless of what everyone says, the Smash universe MUST operate under some sense of continuity, otherwise we'd see Pikachu with a firearm and a cigarette, muttering overused puns about "takin' out the trash" whenever he capped someone. I, for one, am glad we don't see that.

*****
That's hardly proof to support your claim. You're essentially saying "They're not showing Zelda's down B. It MUST be Sheik!"

That's like saying, "I can't see the type of ice cream in my bowl under all this topping. It MUST be chocolate!"

Makes NO sense, yo.

NRC, you have some of the funnyest analogues I have seen in awell lol!

Now I HAVE to draw a fire arms Pika smoking a cigg

 

[SuperLink9]

Don't sell yourself short, I'm sure you can rant just like the rest of us. .

I can, was just too tired then, & I'm too tired now too, too many posts to read, & it's will just end up repeating the same subjects...

Wrong. Zelda IS Twilight Princess Zelda. How do I know? Because they DIDN'T use the most updated version of any other character in the game. Think about it, if Smash Bros was just intended to use the appearance of ever character from they're most recent game with no thought of continuity, then why don't we see Samus in her Metroid Prime 3 costume? And how come Mario from Mario Galaxy doesn't sport the game denim (not just blue DENIM fabric) overall's as Smash Mario? With each of those characters, Sakurai created his own unique version of the character with its own appearance, distinct from their most recent games. But with Zelda and Link, they CHOSE rather than to update what they already had (like with Mario, Samus, ect.), to use characters model specific to one game, which is distinctly different from the characters they chose to represent the Zelda series in the last generation. It would only make logical sense to stay true to that specific character, rather than combining it with attributes of the character they chose for the last generation.

It's basically meant to fit with Smash Bros' style. The Super Mario games have always had a less than realistic style, & even though Smash Bros is still anything but realistic, Mario is given denim, because that's what it would look like had it been real, as a lot of things on Brawl are possibly based on. As for Metroid Prime 3, & Samus' costume, well, Samus' base costume is the same in virtually ever Metroid game, & if we're talking timescale & continuity, then she wouldn't be in her MP3 suit anyway, she'd be in her Fusion suit (she has a fairly Fusion looking alt anyway, but it's not her base suit) but he suit has become more shiny & realistic looking, as a result of the Metroid Prime 3 games, I'm willing to bet the Morph Ball will look better in Brawl than it did in Melee, which was Samus literally "morphing" into a ball that was definitely far too small. It's not their most recent look, it's their most updated look (if you ask me they could easily be different things...) & as far as realism goes, TP is more realistc than the more plastic looking OoT look. If you had the choice, which one would you choose? Say if TP was released before OoT, & the character design was the same as they are now, but OoT simply came out afterwards? They'd still use the TP design, possibly, simply because it's more realistic. Still, I'm not saying they definitely would, it's just speculation, but I rest by my view that Brawl Zelda is just Zelda, not TP Zelda.[/color][/font]

But even if you could justify that SSBB Zelda is different from TP/OoT Zelda and thus free from any continuity issues, then I could argue just as easily that SSBB Zelda is different from the SSBM Zelda, since they are clearly based on two different versions of Zelda, and Sheik still doesn't make sense.

But if it's Zelda in general, then it doesn't really matter, does it? Tetra would be fine for Zelda if the art style wasn't so different, & Tetra would probably have a very strange conversion indeed, too strange infact, all Shiek needs is a small design update. The style of OoT & TP are similar, TP is arguably meant to be a more realistic next gen version of what OoT could have looked like.

It's funny, the only reason this arguement exists is because the two look similar. No one argues that SSBB Zelda should change into Tetra. Or, if a Wind Waker Zelda is included, that she should transform into Sheik. The truth is people are stuck on realistic-Zelda=Sheik, and it demonstrates a lack of knowledge in the series.

As I just said, noone would argue it because the look wouldn't fit at all, it's also the reason WW Link is likely to be a seperate character. While most Links in the Zelda timeline look the same/similar, or are updates of each other. WW Link is only the same in 2 games, which are of course both the same Link, & are an entirely different art direction to the rest of the Links.

This is only arguably of course

You're right, this arguement could continue for all of eternity, because I'm stubborned and because I know I'm right on this particular topic. If you don't want to say anything more in this discussion, I certainly won't think any less of you, but I'm not going to back down on this. I know my arguements aren't going to change whatever Sakurai ends up doing, but that doesn't mean I have to like it or be quiet about it.

End rant.

When you say you know you're right, you should probably put you think you're right, if you'd put that I would have simply left it as "fair enough".

I'm probably not going to back down at this either, but if I'm just going to be bringing up the same points again I'm a bit tired, & arguing won't make a difference to Sakurai's decision. Simply my thoughts on the subject.

 

[cityofgarbage]

instead of having an out of place OoT sheik or a made up twilight princess sheik, why not put zelda in the dark hood from twilight princess and give her sheik's moveset?

 

[Iris]

Because that makes even less sense since she never used any of the moves.

 

[Drake3]

Man, this topic got boring very quickly. Maybe some day we'll stop re-iterating the same points and argue about something new.

 

[Circus]

Man, this topic got boring very quickly. Maybe some day we'll stop re-iterating the same points and argue about something new.

I'm thinking the next time that happens, it'll be because Sheik's fate will be revealed and the "winning" side in this discussion will be gloating.

Unless we see Zelda's neutral B before that, and it ends up being something we're not expecting.

 

[Iris]

True. There's really nothing left to argue until the next Zelda update, and that could take a while.

 

[cityofgarbage]

Because that makes even less sense since she never used any of the moves.

how does inheriting moves make less sense than updating a character for a game she was never in?

 

[SiD]

how does inheriting moves make less sense than updating a character for a game she was never in?

Because Zelda isn't a ninja, a cloak doesn't make someone a ninja. Magic does.

 

[Iris]

Because the cloak didn't do anything. It wasn't a disguise or an alter-ego. it was a piece of clothing. At least with Sheik, there was a reason to have different abilities, because she didn't want there to be any noticable similarities.

In all honesty though, I'd prefer neither. It's not the continuity that bugs me about Sheik, it's the fact that Zelda's unique playing style is sacrificed for another character when it's just Zelda herself who's important to the series.

 

[SiD]

Well, they can give her a better fighting style and still have Shiek. She'd only be losing one special move, doesn't seem like that big a deal to me.

 

[hungrybum]

omg sheik just appeared in one game.... and wasnt major still (zelda is important not sheik)!!!!
I say kick her out and replace her by Impa (important to the serie and could recycle sheik's moveset)

 

[Iris]

Well, I'm pretty sure they wanted to weaken them both purposely so they'd be interdependent. What's the point of combining them if they're already on par with every else by themselves? That's just cramming and being too lazy to make 2 extra special moves. The whole point was they were supposed to need eachother. You can balance them all you want, but still, it's only the player that suffers when he can't use Zelda for half the battle because she sucks at racking damage and can't (aren't supposed to) use Sheik for finishers. Wouldn't you rather have 1 character equal to all the others rather than having to change between 2 completely different weak characters with missing moves just to do what 1 normal character can do, because that's what balancing them would mean. Zelda's the freaking embodiment of the Triforce of Wisdom. She shouldn't need help to do what everyone else can do normally. That's why I'd rather see Zelda by herself and have Sheik as either a separate or non-playable character. Don't make her out to be weaker than she is.

 

[Black/Light]

I think Shiek is out and her move-set was stripped and given to other new characters.

 

[hungrybum]

omg sheik just appeared in one game.... and wasnt major still (zelda is important not sheik)!!!!
I say kick her out and replace her by Impa (important to the serie and could recycle sheik's moveset)

I think Shiek is out and her move-set was stripped and given to other new characters.

Impa in my opinion..... or nothing

 

[Iris]

Impa's a more important character, yes, but I'm pretty sure it was only OoT where she looked even remotely like some one able to fight, not some old hag.

 

[hungrybum]

i mean impa's newer look..... so OoT

PS: Does Impa reappears as somebody different in each game like zelda and link, or is she like ganondorf?
Oh yeah... and it is Impa who teached Zelda how to fight as Sheik

 

[Iris]

She's not in the games as often as them, but she does have multiple incarnations.

 

[SiD]

Ok, Iris, you're making me want to play Zelda now lol.

Still, I like Shiek. So Shiek for spearate character!