Why Sheik will Return

[The rAt]

Plus, as passionate about this as rAt is, I imagine he'll come back around eventually and say everything I'd say, but more eloquently. He has a habit of doing that.

Well, that's my cue.

Okay, I'll try to compile everything I've said:

I don't understand people that think the Smash Bros. series has anything to do with continuity. It's a fighting game, story doesn't matter in the slightest in reference to each characters individual games, their movesets are made to be fun/unique, often times not having anything to do with ANY of their games. Honestly, Shiek transformation is a good, unique mechanic that just needs some balancing issues. There is no reason to remove it from a gameplay standpoint, so therefore, no reason to remove it from a Smash Bros. game.

Why does it being a fighting game mean that we should throw continuity out the window? If that's true, then why should Gannondorf be altered from his clone status? He was very popular and used by many, regardless of the fact that it was a repeate moveset. And I will bet you anything that if they kept him in as a clone, people would still use him. So from a gameplay standpoint, changing him is just as unnecessary. People want him changed because his moveset doesn't make sense with his character. He doesn't do the things he does in the game. Same deal with Zelda. Zelda doesn't change into Sheik. One Zelda, who I might add, had a very specific reason for doing so, changed into Sheik.

From a storyline standpoint, think about it like this. The Shiekah are supposed to be the guardians of the royal family, are they not? And in OoT, Zelda transformed into Shiek using magic. Magic she got from using the triforce of Wisdom. Given that these are both still true, and what we know about Zelda being somewhat of a reincarnation of herself just as Link is, it's not that big of a stretch for TP Zelda to transform into some form that's better fit for fighting, nor is it a strectch for that transformation to be based on the Shiekah. Since we already have Shiek, why not make her transform into Shiek.

You're right, the ability to change one's clothes using magic is plausibly a trait that was passed down through the ages. The necessity for using it, and the training Zelda recieved by being raised by Impa, which allowed her to behave as a Sheikah, and thus make the disguise a convincing one, were not passed down through the ages.
Also, please do not bring up the whole Zelda physically changes into a dude or a ninja arguement up. That's fanfic, and is not supported by anything within the Zelda cannon and is completely unnecessary to explain how Zelda/Sheik acts in OoT. It's a change of outfit, and the only reason it involves magic is because she needed to change onscreen and they weren't about to show Sheik nuding up.

Lastly, even if not as a transformation, Shiek deserves to return because she was in Melee, she wasn't a clone, and she has a fanbase. I can vouch for that, I am a fan of Shiek, not because of her moveset or because she's good in Melee, but because I think she is a really cool alter ego to Zelda. She was really cool and mysterious in OoT, and the way she moves and attacks in Melee are very cool looking, very smooth.

So yes, Shiek should return in one of the two ways. And yes, she more than likely will.

How was that Berkus? RDK?

Still, I like Shiek. So Shiek for spearate character!

Okay, see that last part was a very good arguement, and I won't detract from it. Personally, if you've read my posts, you'll see that I would rather Impa take the spot, but if she returns as her own character then I will not complain. Well, maybe if she steals the spot of my beloved Falco, but that's more a matter of bitterness than true objection.

Actually, He kinda is. His uair and dair are from Zelda 2 His intro is also from Zelda 1 or Wind Waker. (Coming in on the winds breath.)

Edit: Also, I do think that Link's Melee trophy did say something to the effect that they were aiming for Link to be rep of all Links. I'm not sure though so don't qoute me on that.

Okay, you got me on the uair/dair, since Zelda 2 is the one older Zelda game that has defeated me. I'll take your word for it. But you see my point, right? The vast majority of the character is based on Twilight Princes Link. More importantly, all of the aspects of him which were previously based on OoT Link have been updated to reflect TP Link.
And I don't know if you're right about the trophy, but if they were trying to make him like every other Link they're doing a pretty poor job.

I can, was just too tired then, & I'm too tired now too, too many posts to read, & it's will just end up repeating the same subjects...

When debating, I usually exhibit either the energy of a rabbid marmoset, or that of a dying sloth. It's really hit or miss with me. So, I guess I can sort of relate.

[/color][/font]It's basically meant to fit with Smash Bros' style. The Super Mario games have always had a less than realistic style, & even though Smash Bros is still anything but realistic, Mario is given denim, because that's what it would look like had it been real, as a lot of things on Brawl are possibly based on. As for Metroid Prime 3, & Samus' costume, well, Samus' base costume is the same in virtually ever Metroid game, & if we're talking timescale & continuity, then she wouldn't be in her MP3 suit anyway, she'd be in her Fusion suit (she has a fairly Fusion looking alt anyway, but it's not her base suit) but he suit has become more shiny & realistic looking, as a result of the Metroid Prime 3 games, I'm willing to bet the Morph Ball will look better in Brawl than it did in Melee, which was Samus literally "morphing" into a ball that was definitely far too small. It's not their most recent look, it's their most updated look (if you ask me they could easily be different things...) & as far as realism goes, TP is more realistc than the more plastic looking OoT look. If you had the choice, which one would you choose? Say if TP was released before OoT, & the character design was the same as they are now, but OoT simply came out afterwards? They'd still use the TP design, possibly, simply because it's more realistic. Still, I'm not saying they definitely would, it's just speculation, but I rest by my view that Brawl Zelda is just Zelda, not TP Zelda.[/color][/font]

That's exactly what I meant; with Mario and Samus, they didn't just take the model out of the most recent game, they made their own. They didn't do that with the Zelda series. Instead of combining Twilight Princess' chainmail wearing/more detailed outfigt, and combining it with the darker haircolor of the NES Link, and parting his hair in the middle like his OoT self, and giving him the Master Sword design from Link to the Past, they took Twilight Princess Link's appearance and they carried it over EXACTLY. Which makes him Twilight Princess Link, not Amalgam-of-all-Links Link. They even added his bow and boomerang from Twilight Princess.

But if it's Zelda in general, then it doesn't really matter, does it? Tetra would be fine for Zelda if the art style wasn't so different, & Tetra would probably have a very strange conversion indeed, too strange infact, all Shiek needs is a small design update. The style of OoT & TP are similar, TP is arguably meant to be a more realistic next gen version of what OoT could have looked like.

As I just said, noone would argue it because the look wouldn't fit at all, it's also the reason WW Link is likely to be a seperate character. While most Links in the Zelda timeline look the same/similar, or are updates of each other. WW Link is only the same in 2 games, which are of course both the same Link, & are an entirely different art direction to the rest of the Links.

If it were Zelda in general, then material for her moves would have been pulled from MORE than just OoT, and her appearance would have been pulled from MORE than just Twilight Princess. You're right they are similar in appearance, though. But similar isn't synonymous and that's how I feel it's being treated.

"Well, because OoT Zelda and TP Zelda are both realistic, we can just put the two together and forget that they're different characters."

Graphical similarity doesn't account for differences in how a character behaves. A character is more than just the technology used to present them. In personality, Wind Waker Zelda and OoT Zelda are far more similar than TP Zelda/OoT Zelda. After all, they both had alternate disguises, they both used magic, they both had an active role in your fight against Ganon, they both actively/physically aided Link, rather than just watching from the sidelines, and like I said before, Wind Waker will get one representative, at best. Since they're overhauling Sheik anyhow, if they're going to update her, why not go the extra mile and make her into a TP Tetra? Most of her moves could make sense for Tetra, too.

The truth is that Zelda in Brawl with Sheik attached to her hip has nothing to do with providing diversity of the character or making her span various gaming generations; it's about making Zelda fit into the tiny little closed-minded box laid out by OoT that many fans of the series can't get past.

Because Zelda isn't a ninja, a cloak doesn't make someone a ninja. Magic does.

A ninja outfit doesn't make someone a ninja, either. Being raised by Impa, and trained to do so does.

When you say you know you're right, you should probably put you think you're right, if you'd put that I would have simply left it as "fair enough".

I'm probably not going to back down at this either, but if I'm just going to be bringing up the same points again I'm a bit tired, & arguing won't make a difference to Sakurai's decision. Simply my thoughts on the subject.

You don't have to back down, and as I've said before, I know my words aren't going to change Sakurai. But that doesn't mean I feel the need to be quiet while being spoonfed what I consider to be fanboy half-***ed continuity (NOTE: NOT the absence of continuity, half-***ed continuity), because it insults my intelligence, and it disrespects those of us who pay enough attention to know that things aren't adding up.

And as far as me being right, I know my objections are sound, and that my reasons for having them are valid. That was not meant to say that those who don't hold my convictions are wrong not to. It simply means I will not appologize for having them. I don't much like Sheik, but I would never tell you you are "wrong" for liking her. Nor would I say you are "wrong" for wanting her in the game, or even wanting her in the game as a part of Zelda. But I will not appologize for saying that the latter doesn't make sense, or even being so brash as to say that I am right in thinking that the latter doesn't make sense.

I'm fairly certain that by the end of this post you won't like me much, and it isn't my intent to cause dissent, so for that reason (also that we are going around in circles) we drop the issue of whether or not Sheik should or shouldn't transform from Zelda and concentrate on the evidence of whether or not she WILL be returning/whether or not she will be returning as a transformation of Zelda.

 

[Fawriel]

Since they're overhauling Sheik anyhow, if they're going to update her, why not go the extra mile and make her into a TP Tetra? Most of her moves could make sense for Tetra, too.

Well, that's my cue!

Random nothing-else-to-do Tetra moveset! ( Yes, I refuse to make her Zelda/Tetra. )

Tetra is basically a mix between Sheik and Pichu. She's extremely agile, relatively small and can combo well, plus she has a few nice tricks. Unlike Sheik, she isn't a born killer, though, and has to rely on edgeguarding. She uses two shortswords like the one she has in the game ( but never uses ).
Weight: rather low
Fallspeed: above average
running speed: Pikachu-ish
jumping: very good

A: open palm, acts like Captain Falcon's A ( no knockback, sure to make the next hit connect )
A, A: open palm, slice. Bit of knockback.
>A: rising blade, like Sheik's f-tilt, but with somewhat more knockback
>Smash: attack with two phases, first an elbow-attack with barely any knockback, followed by a double-sword slice with rather okay knockback. Yeah, modelled after Sheik's, too.
^A: jumping kick, she jumps and kicks upwards for this, hitting twice ( Sheeeeeeik )
^Smash: jump and double-slice, you get the idea: Sheikish. I'll stop saying that now.
vA: leg-trip, she kicks at the opponents legs at a very low height, making them pop up; perfect setter-up
vSmash: she gets onto her hands and swings her body backwards first, then forward; rather low knockback, but defends her back quickly and knocks away at a low trajectory

Aerials:
N: jump-kick ( duh ), she stretches out her leg and kicks, spinning a little, acts like a short sex-kick
F: double-slice with a bit of start-up time, using the momentum of the flight for respectable knockback
B: elbow, low knockback, but knocks down a bit for edgeguarding
U: traditional flip-kick, Mario-ish
D: mimics Link's dair, but much shorter and weaker

B - Cannonbomb: A bomb looking remarkably much like Link's, she automatically throws these, they can't be held. They explode on contact and have pretty good knockback at low damages, but it doesn't rise a lot when damage rises. Edgeguarding tool. ( Tetra's turnips. )
>B - Grappling Hook. On the ground, it acts like a very long, somewhat faster and much weaker version of Kirby's hammer. In the air, she can use it to grab the ledge and thus allow her to recover.
^B - Cannonball: She takes out a huge ball of metal and lobs it up if she's standing on the ground, dealing BIG knockback to anyone on its way up, and meteoring anyone on the way down, with major damage. Of course, all that takes a looong time for such a little girl, so it's even less usable than Thunder, but much more effective. If in the air, she'll lob the ball straight down, doubling as an edgeguarding meteor and as a recovery as her tiny body's shot upwards by her own force. Any cannonball falling onto the ground cannot be used again and remains in the background until it fades away like an item after a certain amount of time. Even if the ball fell off the stage, she cannot possibly use it again during this time.
vB - Slipknot: Stealthy positions a small trap on the floor that makes the opponent trip if they touch it, setting them up for a possible combo or possibly saving her behind.

Throws:
Nothing special.

Supermegasexyawesomesmashthingy:
She talks into her shiny stone pendant made of Gossip Stone with a sly grin. Apparently, she called her pirate crew, as it's now raining bombs on her enemies.

 

[SiD]

Why does it being a fighting game mean that we should throw continuity out the window? If that's true, then why should Gannondorf be altered from his clone status? He was very popular and used by many, regardless of the fact that it was a repeate moveset. And I will bet you anything that if they kept him in as a clone, people would still use him. So from a gameplay standpoint, changing him is just as unnecessary. People want him changed because his moveset doesn't make sense with his character. He doesn't do the things he does in the game. Same deal with Zelda. Zelda doesn't change into Sheik. One Zelda, who I might add, had a very specific reason for doing so, changed into Sheik.

That's completely different. I said continuity shouldn't matter, not that they should just do random **** because it's only a Smash Bros. game. Ganondorf deserves his own moveset, not one that he never did at all. Zelda did turn into Sheik, so that's not stupid, just not canonical to her current appearance.

 

[The rAt]

That's completely different. I said continuity shouldn't matter, not that they should just do random **** because it's only a Smash Bros. game. Ganondorf deserves his own moveset, not one that he never did at all. Zelda did turn into Sheik, so that's not stupid, just not canonical to her current appearance.

Random question. If G.Dorf's Melee moves were encorporated into a mainstream Zelda title, would he then not deserve a new moveset? Personally, I'd say he should still get one. Because he's been in several games, and thus his moves should reflect traits that he has in MOST of his games, not in ONE of his games. That's part of what I was getting at.

Of course, Zelda never used any of the Goddess magics in ANY Zelda game. And if they could remove all but one of them, and not have to scrap the character I'd be totally up for that too. But they CAN make Sheik her own character without totally scrapping the character. It's completely feasable in this case to respect continuity and still let Sheik fans have their character. That's another thing I've been trying to get at.

And I realize I just broke the peace once more. Oh, well.

On a different note, that was amazing timing Fawriel. We should tag team debate something sometime. Not because we have an opinion on the topic, just to do it.

 

[MetalMetaKnight]

Sheks in, a friend of mine gave me a link to a vid of a SSE Demo vid whre tey are fighting the primids and zelda transforms and uses her A attacks and Needles. Thts all i know of the original attacks she still has

 

[SiD]

@ rAt - Okay, true, good point. So, Shiek for separate character then?

@ MMK - Can you give us said link?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Okay, true, good point. So, Shiek for separate character then?

That would be like having 2 Zelda's as seperate PC's

that is a horrible idea

 

[The rAt]

SiD,
Sure, I can get behind that.

MetalMetaKnight,
If that is so, then you should post a link so the rest of us can see it, as well.

PsychoIncarnate,
I dunno, we had two Links last time around. Fair's fair, right?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

SiD,
Sure, I can get behind that.

MetalMetaKnight,
If that is so, then you should post a link so the rest of us can see it, as well.

PsychoIncarnate,
I dunno, we had two Links last time around. Fair's fair, right?

No, we shouldn't have 2 links, mario's, zelda's or Anyone...that's a waste

 

[SiD]

A waste of what? There is no set amount of character slots or some ****, and it's not like it's hard to bring back a pre existing character. So Psycho, it's either Sheik as a separate, or Sheik transformation staying. Because removing a non clone character, that's the horrible idea.

 

[Fawriel]

On a different note, that was amazing timing Fawriel. We should tag team debate something sometime. Not because we have an opinion on the topic, just to do it.

Alright. You go get the badass black suits, I'll get the shades and walkie-talkies.

 

[RWB]

Support for Tetra? <3

 

[SuperLink9]

I don't like you less for that post at all, on the contrary, your opinions have my full respect. It's all they really are, opinions, you don't want Shiek to be a part of Zelda's moveset, & I wouldn't mind if she was. I used to think the exact same way as you, except I thought Shiek didn't have a chance in hell, I didn't think she would have her own character slot, & she didn't fit with TP Zelda. Recently though, I've been getting hope that Shiek will return, she's a popular character & I like her too, so I started to think that SSB isn't about the continuity, on the contrary, it takes continuity hostage & gives it a big Falcon Punch in the face. Mario & Link aren't from the same world, neither are TP Zelda & Shiek the same person, it's arguably the same thing, just on a more personal scale.

I will stick to my opinions, & you can stick to yours, I however, am a bit too tired to continue this argument. While I knopw my stuff about the Zelda timeline, I personally think Smash Bros has nothing to do with it, there aren't really any facts to say that it's TP Zelda, just that it's Zelda with her TP design.

I also think, even though I'll miss Young Link ever so much, that WW Link will be in Brawl, but that's it. Tetra always seemed to get kidnapped more often than not anyway ^^;

& Ganondorf needs a new moveset, his Melee moves are almost nothing like his moves in any Zelda game, so there's no excuse to bring him back with C. Falcon's moveset.

The only thing I can say about clones, is that I empathise for those who could use Falco well, but not Fox, & Young Link well, but not Link. It's just a shame for some that these characters won't be returning, & that's why I suggested Goroh be given Ganondorf's old moveset while Ganon be given a new one (though we all know Goroh isn't playable now...) Still, clones seem to be muchly frowned upon, so those who used clone characters as their mains will just have to find new characters. I think I've found mine already, Sonic, but if he's too overused I may move to WW Link, or good old Ice Climbers.

 

[Drake3]

@ MMK - Can you give us said link?

I sincerely doubt that somehow.

 

[SuperLink9]

It's likely he was talking about the video shown at E4All, with the jingle you can just about hear at the end, which just turned out to be an A move anyway. Prolly just a jump to conlcusions.

 

[Black/Light]

A waste of what? There is no set amount of character slots or some ****, and it's not like it's hard to bring back a pre existing character. So Psycho, it's either Sheik as a separate, or Sheik transformation staying. Because removing a non clone character, that's the horrible idea.

To take out a character with a unique move set would only be a "waste" if they don't take said move-set and use parts of it for other new characters. . . .the character not being in isn't a "waste" in and of it's self, just the effort put into it's move-set.

How I see it. . .
Sakurai if he took Shiek out : Oh, well, we need to make up a few moves for Zero suit. What ideas do you all have.
Dev: I know, we can take Shiek's old up smash/ N Air and etc seeing as she wont be in!
Sakurai : Ok, so Zero takes those moves and Shiek's back air and etc go to so-and-so. Ok, we have officially reused the majority of her moves.

Thats how I see it. They could just split her moves up between characters that where either once clones or are new and haven't had a move-set made for them before which would logically make making new move-sets easyer because some of their moves and effects have already been texted and proven to work in the past (and would need only a few minor twiks). That would shave off time on the other character's move-set that uses part of her melee move-set.

Recycling ftw.

 

[SiD]

Black/Light, first of all, Zero Suit doesn't have Sheik's moves. But second, It's not just her moveset I like. I think Sheik is a really cool character in general. So to take her out, when it would be so easy to keep her, would be a waste. She has real fans, there's no reason to waste her awesomeness on someone else.

 

[Black/Light]

Black/Light, first of all, Zero Suit doesn't have Sheik's moves. But second, It's not just her moveset I like. I think Sheik is a really cool character in general. So to take her out, when it would be so easy to keep her, would be a waste. She has real fans, there's no reason to waste her awesomeness on someone else.

I was simply using a example. . . I have zero idea what Zero suit's attacks are but Im sure I saw atleast one that looks like Shiek's.

And by what means is it a "waste" to you? In order to keep her in they will still have to screw with her stats and make a whole new model for her along with new animations and what not. . . .and by all means she is not necessary part of Zelda. Heck, if they split up her attacks and give them to other characters than it COULD speed up the move-set process for those characters, alowing more time for other things.

By no means do I think we can just dub scrapping a character as a waste when doing so COULD result in faster production of other character's move-set ideas. She isn't important to LoZ in any other why than being Zelda's transforation in one game. . . .and she is only that in melee ( a transformation of Zelda ). Lopping off Zelda's old Bv and using parts of it for other characters seems logical IMO atleast.

 

[SiD]

Obviously, you hate Shiek, so there is no point continuing this with you. No hard feelings, and good day.

 

[Iris]

I seriously hope you're joking because those are some pretty valid points.

 

[SiD]

Well I've already explained why Shiek shouldn't be removed, he thinks it's okay to do so just because of her moveset possibley could be used for other characters. That's not valid.

Plus, i'm sick of repeating myself. He can read my previous posts for my side of the argument.

 

[Drake3]

Tell me about it. I'm sick of reading..and rAt's font/colour scheme breaks my soul. Did anyone give a good counter-argument for Zelda turning into Tetra instead of Sheik? Aside from the "boo cel-shaded vs TP" which they'd have to correct for Sheik anyway.

 

[SiD]

.....

Well, having a non cel shaded character turn into a cel shaded one seems pretty silly for me...

And, that makes less sense than her turning into Sheik.....


Plus, Tetra isn't a ninja. She's a pirate. Totally different.

*Awaits awesome Ninjas vs Pirates debate*

 

[Iris]

I think it's valid. ZSamus in particular does look like she'll play similar to Sheik. Maybe not the same exact moves, but many similar ones, and comparable movement. Either way though, even if she isn't exactly the same, no one is exactly the same as their Melee counterpart. Like he said, even thought Sheik had a unique playing style, she wasn't really a relevant character, which is undeniable. Rather than scrapping a good moveset though, I can easily see some of it being given away if they want to make room for some more significant characters.

Anyways, he's bringing up new points, so I don't see any harm in discussing them.

 

[SiD]

Look Iris, I just don't think it's fair to remove her. Putting her in wouldn't be that hard, really, it wouldn't. She has real fans, like me, fans that like her for more than her moveset. And like you said, she did have a unique playing style. I think that combined with the simple fact that she was in the last game makes her relevant.

 

[Drake3]

.....

Well, having a non cel shaded character turn into a cel shaded one seems pretty silly for me...

And, that makes less sense than her turning into Sheik.....


Plus, Tetra isn't a ninja. She's a pirate. Totally different.

*Awaits awesome Ninjas vs Pirates debate*

>_>

...

>____>

It would be Zelda turning into her most recent drag outfit who would be rendered into a TP model. It makes just as much (or little) sense as TP Zelda turning into Sheik, except one will be more recent than the other.

...And were you always a Ganondorf user/supporter or is that new?

 

[SiD]

She's still a pirate.....

And a TP version of Tetra? Weird....



Also, Tetra is a kid. TP Zelda is an adult. Get around that one, *****!

 

[Iris]

You're right, it wouldn't be hard, but we can't exactly assume there's endless slots available for the roster. I can think of tons of fresh characters that would probably out-prioritize her if Sakurai's looking for more revolutionary game characters.

 

[SiD]

Me too Iris, but a new character is harder to implement than a vet.

 

[Your Hero]

Lol about what people are saying, that "It would seem stupid seeing sheik and zelda face each other", doesn't really make a very good case. In brawl, you have the choice to choose between whichever character you'd like, whether or not someone else is using it already. If someone chose to have a Zelda fight (where everyone is playing as Zelda), then that as well won't make sense, considering that "It makes no sense to have 4 Zelda's fight each other because they are all counterparts". So it really wouldn't matter if Sheik was a seperate character, because if you had Sheik and Zelda fight each other, it would be just the same as having 2 Zeldas fight against each other.

I don't know why I never thought of it before lol..:]

 

[SuperLink9]

Continuity, as far as I'm concerned, isn't a great argument. There are already too many stages or characters that break the continuity rule. An example I just thought of, In Brawl, Samus uses her costume that seems more alike to her MP look, or Super Metroid look, but ZSS has only ever been in Zero Mission, which is the first in the series, really Fusion is the most updated, but they didn't choose it, since it's too different looking, & it aims to use the character in general, for the whole series.

I too agree that not using Shiek would be a waste of a perfectly good/decent Ninja moveset. I mean, if we're talking "taking up character slots" then surely Shiek has more of a right than Luigi or Falco? Who are bound to return with some clone inspired moves.

So what if Shiek is broken or overpowered, Brawl will essentially replace Melee, Shiek will be nerfed, why is there a problem any more? Also if Shiek has her own character slot, that:

- Takes into account the continuity argument
- Stops Zelda users/fans from talking about it not being fair, even though I don't understand why that is.
- Makes Shiek fans happy
- Maintains a unique character in the series
- Will "replace" a character (honestly?)

 

[DreamScape]

Nice Disscussion... may I join? ^.^

Well this is our opinions... Sakurai can just be like "NO WAY!" and there goes my arguments...any way

Continuity, as far as I'm concerned, isn't a great argument. There are already too many stages or characters that break the continuity rule. An example I just thought of, In Brawl, Samus uses her costume that seems more alike to her MP look, or Super Metroid look, but ZSS has only ever been in Zero Mission, which is the first in the series, really Fusion is the most updated, but they didn't choose it, since it's too different looking, & it aims to use the character in general, for the whole series.

But then again Samus is always the same Samus... she can just go to the wardrobe and change clothes or take her helmet off.. Mario is Mario now or 20 years ago (so he can pick up Fludd if he wants to)

With Zelda it's completly different:

Let's just say that every Zelda is not named Zelda... So we have Maria, Jill, OMGNOSHIEK!, Noobprincess and Kutipie. By saying Shiek should return one is basicaly saying that it's ok to Kutipe to transform into her great grandmother Jill?! WTH O_o

Then there's the fact that in the present zelda timeline there isn't a shiek.. think about it..Shiek existed in the OoT Future, so when Link returns, Zelda doesn't need to run away and hide. Therefore there isn't the need to learn the way of the sheikah...So no shiek. Which means TP Zelda has no idea what you're talking about (Sure you could say that Impa taught her.. but look at the Sheikah/Impa situation in TP.. Western phantom city? Yeah Go GO Royal family guards!!! ...Thank the godesses they protected her from Zant >_> )

OK That leaves the Timeline in which Zelda was truly Shiek so that must mean it's i... Oh wait! Listen!! (>_>) Tetra didn't know she was the princess so there's no way she could know how to turn into Shiek... The Shiek link is broken (no pun inteded)... So Shiek being a zelda transformation would seriously mess everything up (unless in the trophy there were some kind of explanation or something x.x)

And then.. if Zelda is suposed to be representing every Zelda.. were is my pirate alter ego.. it's been in 2 games now and seriously it's so much more badass!! I mean c'mon people, Shiek was Zelda hiding (please Mr Ganon don't hurt me)...Tetra is the leader of a group of pirates who goes around causing chaos (and trying to help people)

But that's for me.. I want Tetra so badly (It doesn't need to be a transformation, just another character... as seen in PH "don't call me princess, Tetra was just fine before" - goes carelessly into a ghost ship... )
and it wold make much more sense as both TP and WW are somewhat parallel...but I don't want to go into timeline disscussions here


So yeah please no shiek connections... put in a gerudo or whatever

 

[SiD]

What kind of a pirate helps people? AKA Tetra sucks.

...Ninjas > Pirates

 

[Iris]

TEN POINTS TO GRYFFINDOR.

Seriously, nice to see some one who's actually able to make a coherent argument.

 

[Drake3]

What kind of a pirate helps people? AKA Tetra sucks.

...Ninjas > Pirates

>_>

What kind of ninja plays a harp <_<

 

[SuperLink9]

Ninjas > Pirates indeed.

But it's a good point. Still that's only if you maintain that Captain Falcon didn't give continuity a huge Falcon Punch in the face, because I believe continuity has no effect in the Smash Bros universe.

Still, that could mean Tetra aswell... but Tetra isn't an "excellent" pirate, she's confident & smart, but she sure as hell can't defend herself, we've seen that all too often ^^;

Not to mention they chose to use Adult Zelda & Adult Link, so Tetra wouldn't work... unless they remade cute Cel-Shaded kid Tetra into a TP look.

& I don't think Tetra has the power to change by herself anyway ^^;

EDIT: In all honesty I think Shiek supporters are the underdog... Either that or there are only 2 or 3 Shiek fans making a stand.

 

[SuperLink9]

EDIT: Clone post, my bad

 

[Circus]

Ninjas > Pirates indeed.

I'll shiver yer timbers if yer be talkin' such nonsense again. ARGGG!!

But it's a good point. Still that's only if you maintain that Captain Falcon didn't give continuity a huge Falcon Punch in the face, because I believe continuity has no effect in the Smash Bros universe.

Actually, I maintain that Captain Falcon shouldn't have been in Smash at all (yeah, I said it. What? You think I'm scared of you? I'll take you all on!). But honestly, I believe Captain Falcon's case is a much less problematic issue. He just punches and kicks. Yeah, they're flashy with the fire effects, but I consider that a rather small liberty to be taken for a character who literally had NOTHING to draw a moveset from. Sakurai did what he had to do to get Captain Falcon playable (why he was so hellbent on including him, I'll never know).

Zelda has enough potential on her own so continuity need not be sacrificed. Whether you value continuity or not, I don't think it's fair to compare Zelda to Captain Falcon. On one hand, you have a character who has exhibited magical abilities and possible moveset material for some time. On the other, you have a character that's never hinted at any kind of fighting maneuvers whatsoever.

Not to mention they chose to use Adult Zelda & Adult Link, so Tetra wouldn't work... unless they remade cute Cel-Shaded kid Tetra into a TP look.

I fail to see a significant difference between that and having to remake Sheik with a TP aesthetic. The only notable difference is body proportions. That seems like a pretty minuscule detail when on the topic of whether or not a character should transform into a completely separate person.

& I don't think Tetra has the power to change by herself anyway ^^;

You know, if Melee hadn't already done it, I wouldn't think Zelda would have the power to change into Sheik via pixie dust and thinking happy thoughts. Alas, I have been proven the fool!

But I'm not in the business of defending Tetra.

EDIT: In all honesty I think Shiek supporters are the underdog... Either that or there are only 2 or 3 Shiek fans making a stand.

I wouldn't doubt either one. That, or the Sheik. . . disapprove-of-ers are just more stubborn. SiD's a Sheik supporter but he tends to be more lax on taking his stand on the issue. Kind of say-what-I-wanna-say-and-GTFO type of guy.

Haha. Clone post. I love it.

 

[SiD]

Yeah, I am pretty lax on this issue, only because I'm about 90% sure Sheik will return as a transformation or as a separate character.

 

[SuperLink9]

Not gonna reply to a lot of that, since It's stuff we've already talked about pages ago ^^;

But you do see Shiek transform back into Zelda in OoT, there's no reall hard evidence to show she can do it freely, but there's more than there is in WW, in WW, Tetra becomes Zelda when her heirloom is fixed, but she doesn't become Tetra again until Hyrule has completely died.

Still, no hard evidence, fair enough I guess.