Why L-cancelling shouldn't be in Smash 4.

[Gades]

L-cancelling is stupid and always has been. There is NEVER a reason not to do it. No advantage of not doing it so whatsoever. Therefore it should be automatic. In fact I've heard top Melee players say this.

What does this mean? It means it's nothing but false, artificial difficulty. There's nothing impressive at all about learning artificial barriers.

For instance. Say Smash 4 requires you to do a shoryuken motion before you can jump, for every jump ever. You still have to press the jump button but now you need the shoryuken motion every single time as well.
Does this suddenly make Smash 4 suddenly more hardcore and competitive than Melee/Brawl? Of course not. The idea is absurd.

I'm all for advanced tech and lots of it...when there's actual depth to it and gives you MORE options, not "learn this completely asinine tech skill to do somethng so basic and there's absolutely no reason to ever not to do it".

This is why I would have liked to have seen Wavedashing in Smash 4, now that is a legitimate tech that adds true depth since it gives you more OPTIONS (Key word).

 

[Jakatsu]

I pretty much agree.

 

[El Duderino]

L-cancelling is stupid and always has been. There is NEVER a reason not to do it. No advantage of not doing it so whatsoever. Therefore it should be automatic.

I don't really care either way so long as aerial landing lag is cut down, but you do realize the same argument could be made against powershielding too? Just saying.

 

[Vkrm]

No thanks. I really like how L cancel impacts offensive/defense, and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say melee is a better game because of it. It asks a lot from you in terms of coordination but its damn fulfilling being able to pressure shields, and I'm not convinced smash needs to be any easier to placate casuals. We know sakurai got them.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

No thanks. I really like how L cancel impacts offensive/defense, and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say melee is a better game because of it. It asks a lot from you in terms of coordination but its damn fulfilling being able to pressure shields, and I'm not convinced smash needs to be any easier to placate casuals. We know sakurai got them.

Even melee's best players think l-cancelling is bad

But whatever, it isn't coming back so there's no reason to even talk about it.

 

[Mahie]

I have a couple of counter-arguments that I would like to submit.

First, and that's only true in SSB64, I reckon, there are a few situations in which you DON'T want to Lcancel. 64 Kirby and Jigglypuff, namely, get different results if they cancel their Dair or not upon connecting with a grouded opponent. Not cancelling will result in popping them up ever so slightly, but sometimes it's required to combo and can help negate the opponent's SDI.

Second, like Vkrm mentioned, your opponent has a huge role to play in whether you will succeed in Lcancelling, or not. Angling your shield, moving so that you hit sooner or later are factors that will determine the Lcancel timing. As such, simply using muscle memory is far from enough, and doing that will simply result in you getting shield grabbed and demolished. It has always been a way of dealing with Falco's pressure in Melee, and if they are not paying attention and you angle your shield up, and they do their aerial early, then you're guaranteed to get your grab on Falco.

What's more, characters like the ICs make it really hard to Lcancel properly. It is definitely an advantage for them, and usually people are wary of going in too much on them, preferring pseudo-agressive styles relying on baiting and stuffing aerials in the ICs movement, as pressuring two shields / two characters at the same time results in very different hitlag durations, and thusly, Lcancel windows.


I'd like to add that I do kind of agree with you though. Overall there is no real reason not to Lcancel, but the fact that your opponent has a say in it, and it's not sheer muscle memory makes it way more interesting than you believe it is.

 

[Vkrm]

Even melee's best players think l-cancelling is bad

But whatever, it isn't coming back so there's no reason to even talk about it.

Ask em what they think about brawl.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Interesting, brawl is still coming back.

 

[Vkrm]

Interesting, brawl is still coming back.

Did melee ever leave?

 

[MookieRah]

Even melee's best players think l-cancelling is bad

I'd really like you to cite your sources here.

 

[Neanderthal]

I clicked this thread ready to punch on. But you present a good argument Gades.
I guess I mainly just want the speed picked back up.

 

[1MachGO]

I still find it silly when people compare L-cancelling to wavedashing. Wavedashing is actually an action, L-cancelling is simply a process of execution which is an extension of an action (an aerial attack).

The decision making for WHEN TO DO IT vs. WHEN NOT TO DO IT is entirely related to the aerial attack; sometimes you shouldn't fair, nair, dair, etc. sometimes you should.

A result of making that decision is you are required to make certain executions. This involves pressing the A button or moving the C-stick to initiate the aerial, as well as L-cancelling upon landing if the aerial hasn't completed its animation. Again, you don't make a decision to do either of these things, you are required to do them when you make the decision to do an aerial attack.

If this still doesn't make any sense, allow me to simplify a bit:

Decision = Aerial Attack
Execution Requirements = Initiating the attack with A [+ Control stick] or C-Stick, landing correctly with L-Cancelling if you touch the ground before the animation completes

Decision = Wavedashing
Execution Requirements = Jumping followed by a directional airdodge into the ground as soon as the character is airborne

Wavedashing can be related to aerial attacks since its an actual action of the character, L-Cancelling is a process of an action.

With its misclassification aside, you could still make an argument that L-cancelling is extraneous. Though this is certainly true in some respects, it does contribute some depth to the game by giving the opponent a stronger ability to mix up their opponent's aerial approaches with shield angling. It also balances the game a bit; slow and fast characters are both able to have similar landing lags since differences are cut in half. If L-Cancelling were removed, the game would favor the fast fast characters who already have lower landing lag. Likewise, if all landing lags were just cut in half or removed, techniques such as drill shining would become immensely more accessible and easier to perform; still favoring the fastest characters.

I wouldn't worry about it anyway because I would be extremely surprised if L-cancelling made it into this game. I would also be surprised is wavedashing made a return. All I really want is a faster paced game with combos and edgeguarding.

 

[psyniac_123]

I wouldn't worry about it anyway because I would be extremely surprised if L-cancelling made it into this game. I would also be surprised is wavedashing made a return. All I really want is a faster paced game with combos and edgeguarding.

Quoted for truth.

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't really care either way so long as aerial landing lag is cut down, but you do realize the same argument could be made against powershielding too? Just saying.

I would say powershielding is different. You can always **** up with the rhythm of pressure by doing a slower attack or doing a fast attack slightly later. It's like frame traps, but psychological.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Automatic L-cancelling would be awesome. But let's just keep it short and simple: we all want a fastpaced game like Melee, and IF L-Cancelling makes the game faster, I'm down for it. If they do it automatically, drastically speeding up the game's aerial game: ALL THE BETTER.

 

[rawrimamonster]

To be blunt, I don't like removing technical barriers because some players are bad at it.

Long story/less blunt. It puts in mind that players want a less difficult game, sure people could make the "divekick" argument which seems to be gaining popularity lately (i.e. less technical barriers and more mental gameplay) but this is moving towards catering to one end of the spectrum just like brawl, this is a closed minded path. Melee is considered perfect by a large part of the community because it lets those who want to play how they want, play how they want, none affecting the other. Personally I liked the highspeed, technicality, and mental parts of melee. Those are what makes it great, and what was and is even better about it is you can be successful by playing to one or two of those alone.

With brawl, it wasn't truly about it being "less hype". it took control away from how players wanted to play in favor of fewer situational options/control choices. This was/is because every move worth using is a large risk due to it being very % based, which lead to the game being more spacing and poking than 3rd strike. Barriers as its being put are a dividing line of you earning your skill and being a button masher. It's far from being a "elitist" thing or from being a "HA IM LOOKING DOWN ON LESS SKILLED PLAYERS" thing like most casual players think, it's simply about not stripping away options that people like in favor of one way of thinking.

 

[Vkrm]

I disagree with the idea that if we do away it we'd see a sudden influx of new players eager to play seriously. I look at it in a more individualistic kind of way. I personally enjoy L cancelling. It makes me more conscious of hitlag which makes pressuring somebody shield more visceral. It enhances my experience so naturally I'd like it to return, but even I know the actual metagame would benefit just as much from a universal cut of lag from all aerials.

 

[dRevan64]

Reposting from that other thread:
re-add l cancelling but give all aerials a small grounded, active hitbox that disappears on l cancel
this maintains maintains the technical demand as well as adding depth. I don't know if someone's suggested this before.

 

[Vkrm]

Reposting from that other thread:
re-add l cancelling but give all aerials a small grounded, active hitbox that disappears on l cancel
this maintains maintains the technical demand as well as adding depth. I don't know if someone's suggested this before.

Plus a more narrow window to time the cancel to stop people from mashing L.

 

[dRevan64]

Plus a more narrow window to time the cancel to stop people from mashing L.

You can just change it to work exactly like teching does. I think I've been making l cancelling harder for myself for years since I do it that way.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I hate it in fighting games when they need you to have stupidly fast reactions to make use of things. That's why I prefer Smash Bros ove rother Fighting games.

 

[Big-Cat]

I disagree with the idea that if we do away it we'd see a sudden influx of new players eager to play seriously. I look at it in a more individualistic kind of way. I personally enjoy L cancelling. It makes me more conscious of hitlag which makes pressuring somebody shield more visceral. It enhances my experience so naturally I'd like it to return, but even I know the actual metagame would benefit just as much from a universal cut of lag from all aerials.

If that's the reasoning behind keeping L-Canceling, then why not include in-game frame data in Training Mode? It does the same thing in the long run. Besides, it's not like any other game needs some arbitrary command to keep players on their toes.

I hate it in fighting games when they need you to have stupidly fast reactions to make use of things. That's why I prefer Smash Bros ove rother Fighting games.

Most of those reactions are actually reads. Anything that's around 22 frames (I think) is typically react-able.

 

[jerflip]

L-cancelling is part of what makes high level Melee so impressive. The timing changes depending on the type of pressure you're exerting (landing on ground, landing on shields, platforms getting in the way, combined with wavelands, etc.), and so you have to have sharp reaction times to perform it appropriately, which can take years to master.

I wouldn't mind if they just cut the landing lag entirely, but I doubt we'll ever see Melee's shield pressure tactics make a return.

 

[dRevan64]

in-game frame data in Training Mode?

yes please

 

[V-K]

More required timing = higher skill barrier

L-Cancel is a good thing.

 

[Browny]

I was gonna post but

But whatever, it isn't coming back so there's no reason to even talk about it.

Yep.

 

[cloudmax]

L-Cancel is artificial difficulty though, which the OP explains in a very clear and understandable way.
I would support keeping it if there actually were any strategy and decision making involved when performing it. In other words, situations where it is better not to perform L-Cancel.
Now it is basically a required input everyones does in order to keep up. I don't want that.
A tech without any downsides or decision-making in it is not a tech anymore, it is just a forced input.

 

[JOE!]

Just saying: when people say melee shield pressure, is that universal or just "spatial"?

Anywho, personally I see the instances where manual l cancel being better (where you can mess it up) being hilariously outweighed by the times it wouldn't be missed if automatic. I'd prefer if aerials just had less landing in general, with different landing times if you hit, miss or hut a shield per move/character.

 

[jerflip]

L-Cancel is artificial difficulty though, which the OP explains in a very clear and understandable way.
I would support keeping it if there actually were any strategy and decision making involved when performing it. In other words, situations where it is better not to perform L-Cancel.
Now it is basically a required input everyones does in order to keep up. I don't want that.

It's "artificially difficult" in the same way 1 frame links are "artificially difficult" in other games.

It's a way of rewarding those who spend a lot of time improving their tech skill. Hence, the "skill ceiling" is higher, so you have a lot more to work towards. I can't remember the last time I played Brawl and felt satisfied after "improving" my nonexistent "tech skill".

 

[kd-]

I'd really like you to cite your sources here.

l-cancelling is really bad dude
more people would pick up the game if it's easier to pick up
there is no reason to NOT l-cancel. you MUST do it.
It's easy for us pros, but more people would play smash 4 if it was easier to do.
it's the decision making that really is what sets, and what should set pros and newbs apart.

M2k says it a few more times on that page

 

[jerflip]

M2k says it a few more times on that page

M2K is just one guy though. Paris made it sound as if it's a popular opinion among pros

 

[Aenglaan]

In a sense, I agree with the OP. L-cancelling only exists so you can reduce lag on certain moves like Link's d-air. You constantly find yourself doing L-cancelling in every instance like this. There isn't really any strategy to this and it kind of is an "artificial barrier". Wavedashing, on the other hand, has instances where it should be used and instances where it shouldn't (like for spacing Marth's sword for example, in regards to the former).

In another sense, being able to successfully learn how to L-cancel did feel pretty good, though.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

You actually raise a good point, but without L canceling, the developers will always put a decent amount of lag on the aerials. I can't see them just reducing all the lag on every aerial to nearly nothing, the way it is with L canceling. In addition, personally to me, it is much more fun having to practice to EARN being able to do a combo, rather than having it be easy to pull off. I like the experience of practicing a tech and pulling it off, it is rewarding, and thus more fun than it being automatically given to me.

Also, there are a few mind games out there where you miss an L cancel on purpose. Miss one at the right spacing and an opponent might try to punish you, but if you know your recovery time you can punish them first and catch them off guard. I've done this before. It is an extra option.

 

[1MachGO]

In a sense, I agree with the OP. L-cancelling only exists so you can reduce lag on certain moves like Link's d-air. You constantly find yourself doing L-cancelling in every instance like this. There isn't really any strategy to this and it kind of is an "artificial barrier". Wavedashing, on the other hand, has instances where it should be used and instances where it shouldn't (like for spacing Marth's sword for example, in regards to the former).

In another sense, being able to successfully learn how to L-cancel did feel pretty good, though.

Except L-cancelling and wavedashing aren't two things which you can compare. One is a mechanic/execution input, the other is an action which changes the state of your character.

 

[Vkrm]

We really need to sort out what matters more. Removing L cancelling makes the game less engaging, but more accessable. Personally, I think smash is already noob friendly enough and would to see L cancel return but with certain tweaks. You see, this why discussions on lcancelling always go back and forth with nobody making a strong case one way or the other. There is no right answer here. As ken would say, "could go either way."

 

[Hitzel]

We really need to sort what matters more. Removing L cancelling makes the game less fun but more accessable. Personally I think smash is already noob friendly enough and would to see L cancel return but with certain tweaks.

It doesn't have to be a choice between the two though. There are infinitely many possibilities for fun mechanics that could make the exclusion of L-canceling irrelevant. Depth and accessibility aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[Vkrm]

I think it'd be hard to make one that doesn't feel as arbitrary as L canceling. Still agree though.

 

[jerflip]

I think it'd be hard to make one that doesn't feel as arbitrary as L canceling. Still agree though.

My prediction? You'll have to press L/R/Z after you've hit the opponent with an arial. It doesn't matter exactly when you press it, as long as it's after the contact has been made.

And thus, whiffed arials won't get cancelled.

 

[Life]

While I dislike the way people are arguing for it in this thread, I don't like l-canceling in its Melee form, because it is not a decision 99% of the time.

What I wouldn't mind seeing, if l-canceling were to make a return, would be if it were made into a decision, e.g. if l-canceling triggered stale moves.

 

[UNKN{OWN}iXi]

L-cancelling is stupid and always has been. There is NEVER a reason not to do it. No advantage of not doing it so whatsoever. Therefore it should be automatic. In fact I've heard top Melee players say this.

What does this mean? It means it's nothing but false, artificial difficulty. There's nothing impressive at all about learning artificial barriers.

For instance. Say Smash 4 requires you to do a shoryuken motion before you can jump, for every jump ever. You still have to press the jump button but now you need the shoryuken motion every single time as well.
Does this suddenly make Smash 4 suddenly more hardcore and competitive than Melee/Brawl? Of course not. The idea is absurd.

I'm all for advanced tech and lots of it...when there's actual depth to it and gives you MORE options, not "learn this completely asinine tech skill to do somethng so basic and there's absolutely no reason to ever not to do it".

This is why I would have liked to have seen Wavedashing in Smash 4, now that is a legitimate tech that adds true depth since it gives you more OPTIONS (Key word).

Have you ever played Smash 64? If so, you wouldn't be saying that.

Z/L canceling is integral to the Smash experience, especially when you have so much landing lag for a lot of A attacks for characters.