Why isn't auto L Canceling an option?

[Bleck]

it's not so much that l-canceling made Melee's metagame what it was so much as it was the reduced amount of frames lost via l-canceling

in essence, if one were to play Melee with automatic l-canceling, the metagame wouldn't change at all

 

[Leafeon]

it's not so much that l-canceling made Melee's metagame what it was so much as it was the reduced amount of frames lost via l-canceling

in essence, if one were to play Melee with automatic l-canceling, the metagame wouldn't change at all

Ice Climbers light shield + hard shield would lose its purpose.

 

[Bleck]

correction; the metagame would barely change at all

 

[masterpad]

In this situation where the attacker commits to an aerial, a few things happen:
A) Attacker misjudges his distance, whiffs, gets punished (ideally, the attacker could retreat if the distance isn't bad)
B) Attacker hits the defender's shield, depending on the frame advantage on landing, punishment or advantage is taken.
C) Attacker hits his target, depending on the frame advantage on landing, punishment or advantage is taken.
D) Attacker gets anti-aired

I might have missed a few scenarios, but that's the jist.

You didn't answer me. I didn't ask for variant scenarios, I describe scenarios where lcancel is important because of the condition-reward's mecanic and I ask for these particular cases what is the matter?The only thing I get is "there is no choice/strategy" which is not the point!

I officially declare this topic a religion! People pro auto-lcancel don't debate at all, they understand everything but by the prism of their dogma: the strategy. I which you all good time in this pointless way....I just discovered Donkey is great in pm3.5 and I am going into the lab to get my donkey a very fast gameplay with a tons of lcancel!!!

 

[trash?]

we welcome you, child, to the church of auto l-cancel

may your sins of arbitrary input be forgiven, amen

 

[masterpad]

we welcome you, child, to the church of auto l-cancel

may your sins of arbitrary input be forgiven, amen

I sincerely like it!

 

[Foo]

Not replying to anything just making a statement post

L-cancelling as a Auto option should pry be available.

As a player tip: L-cancelling should be performed on the GCC by doing a light press on the analog spring, not having to waste effort (and your tech windows) by hard pressing it with the click (which some people do).

Sometimes people say "Why not put a dumb cancel mechanic on Smash Attacks that you have to time too" or something of the such who are against L-cancelling.

- Well one thing that's a little ironic is IASA already does sort of that, versus the Animation's actual End: and the differences between what you can do out of each (with the animation being over obviously allowing anything).

- L-cancelling being on Aerials, rather than anything else like a Smash Attack, is exactly what you would want to put the mechanic over. Melee's Aerial game is the center point of the game where so many factors come into play. You always want it performed (unless you're going for something crazy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DavS35HGDE ) but that doesn't mean it doesn't require thought: the thought is indeed more of a innate technical one based on quickly interacting with your character's velocity, the judgement on whether you're going to hit the opponent's body, the opponent's shield/light shield/shield angling and pushing, items/stage hazards/slopes/platforms/wind-boxes. Changing the timing through actual point of landing or by hitlag: which in PM's case apparently might have been discovered to not affect the window like it does in Melee.

It's easy to think you'd want it removed after you've reasoned yourself to think it's dumb, but there's hundreds of factors that made Brawl just a worse game: and some of them are still beyond our understanding. With L-cancelling making Melee more intense in an arcane way.

Also you can L-cancel by spamming it (or quickly tapping both shoulders after the other) because it has no fail window, but that has it's own detriments (if you're near the Auto-cancel window for the aerial and do manage to reach it, which will give you 4 frames of landing lag depending on your character and not require the L-cancel, it's gonna easily trigger your shield).

IASA isn't comparable because it isn't made more complicated. If you had to hit L to trigger the iasa and then move, it'd be comparable, and arbitrary. IASA is as simple as possible. (though I still fail to see the point of iasa anyway, why not just make the move animation shorter so it's intuitive?)

Brawl has so many bad things, implying the lack of L-canceling was one of the reasons brawl sucked seems silly. If anything L-cancel related, it was the overall increase of landing lags across the board.

As for the last point, stop spamming just before you hit the ground? I mean, you can mess anything up, that doesn't make it deep.

 

[Phaiyte]

Words that no intelligent human being will ever care about

 

[masterpad]

@ P Phaiyte what you just wrote prove my point. You are arrogant, insulting and you believe no matter what argument can be give to you that how you see things about lcancel is the multi-dimentional truth.

****
I still don't see any answer on WHAT IS ABSURD to always perform an arbatritary/nonstrategic/usessly-difficult imput IF IT HAS A REWARD in a COMPETITIVE GAME.
******
Your jokes makes me smile and I still love you all. I am a man of peace that's why I choose to leave before , the anger of people without answers like you start to bring negativity here. I "unwatched" these threat and I don't know why I still receive alerts about it.
G for you , if making fun of me helps you to think deeper you are right. Many other people pros auto-lcancel/no lcancel at all, act like you there, with verbal violence and so on.
Since the pmbd team stated that you dogma has no future in pm you have two solution :start to develop your own mod or stop arguing(if your blinded and megalomaniac speech can be call like that).But you can't so like every marginal you goes radical. All that violence...even if someone says "because maylay, what's the problem? pm didn't born because maylay?!" and even whithn the explanation that everything in a fighting game desing didn't has to be looked frm a strategic Point Of View..you can open your mind at all. And you play the thought guys whith bad dissimulated insults and medium ironic jokes.
If I acted exactly like you where all this will leads us?

Good time for you...What? what? PM3.6 has just be announced???!!! whoooah! great news! what could be the new improvements and changes?! who knows... but i have a little idea about one thing CERTAINLY...NO AUTO-LCANCEL!

 

[Phaiyte]

@ P Phaiyte what you just wrote prove my point. You are arrogant, insulting and you believe no matter what argument can be give to you that how you see things about lcancel is the multi-dimentional truth.

****
I still don't see any answer on WHAT IS ABSURD to always perform an arbatritary/nonstrategic/usessly-difficult imput IF IT HAS A REWARD in a COMPETITIVE GAME.
******
Your jokes makes me smile and I still love you all. I am a man of peace that's why I choose to leave before , the anger of people without answers like you start to bring negativity here. I "unwatched" these threat and I don't know why I still receive alerts about it.
G for you , if making fun of me helps you to think deeper you are right. Many other people pros auto-lcancel/no lcancel at all, act like you there, with verbal violence and so on.
Since the pmbd team stated that you dogma has no future in pm you have two solution :start to develop your own mod or stop arguing(if your blinded and megalomaniac speech can be call like that).But you can't so like every marginal you goes radical. All that violence...even if someone says "because maylay, what's the problem? pm didn't born because maylay?!" and even whithn the explanation that everything in a fighting game desing didn't has to be looked frm a strategic Point Of View..you can open your mind at all. And you play the thought guys whith bad dissimulated insults and medium ironic jokes.
If I acted exactly like you where all this will leads us?

Good time for you...What? what? PM3.6 has just be announced???!!! whoooah! great news! what could be the new improvements and changes?! who knows... but i have a little idea about one thing CERTAINLY...NO AUTO-LCANCEL!

My post was a reply that only stated the obvious point that you are wrong and can't provide anything other than logical fallacies and personal anecdotes to get your point across. Until you can do something besides that, your comments don't even deserve respect lmao

 

[Juushichi]

what in the world am i reading

 

[Chzrm3]

So what are the benefits to not L Cancelling? Unless I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, not L Cancelling allows the opponent to punish and mess up a combo.

Yeah - that's a good thing. If you mess up your tech skill, you can get punished. It's a very small window, but it's something to always look for, especially if you're playing against someone who really needs to hit his L-cancels, like Link or Gdorf.

In a world where everybody L-cancelled perfectly every time, it'd be a pointless mechanic and it could be removed without mattering. But we don't live in that world. We live in a world where even the best players will occasionally flub one, and everyone below 'best player' misses 'em routinely. (If you don't believe me, check your stats at the end of a match.) And when you miss an L-cancel that really mattered, it hurts.

Auto-l-cancelling would remove that entire layer of strategy. You'd never be waiting for a good opening to go in and punish their whiffed L-cancel because you'd know that won't ever happen.

As a final thing, I think it's a great introductory tech skill for players who are trying to improve their suite of technical knowledge. WDing is hard to legitimately apply to your game, and DIing is a little unintuitive and weird. But the L-cancel makes sense and it's easy to learn. PM even gives you a nice visual feedback on it - so I think it serves as a nice way to get people excited about the fact that they're learning tech and improving their game.

And that is important. We were all there at one point in Melee, and hopefully we all remember how cool it felt when we started L-cancelling and were way faster than the people at school who hadn't read about that trick online yet, hahaha.

So L-cancelling is fine. It's good for the health of the game, even if it is arbitrary to a player who plays perfectly.

 

[Foo]

[/quote]

I've said it multiple times and you've never responded. What makes it abusurd

Yeah - that's a good thing. If you mess up your tech skill, you can get punished. It's a very small window, but it's something to always look for, especially if you're playing against someone who really needs to hit his L-cancels, like Link or Gdorf.

In a world where everybody L-cancelled perfectly every time, it'd be a pointless mechanic and it could be removed without mattering. But we don't live in that world. We live in a world where even the best players will occasionally flub one, and everyone below 'best player' misses 'em routinely. (If you don't believe me, check your stats at the end of a match.) And when you miss an L-cancel that really mattered, it hurts.

Auto-l-cancelling would remove that entire layer of strategy. You'd never be waiting for a good opening to go in and punish their whiffed L-cancel because you'd know that won't ever happen.

As a final thing, I think it's a great introductory tech skill for players who are trying to improve their suite of technical knowledge. WDing is hard to legitimately apply to your game, and DIing is a little unintuitive and weird. But the L-cancel makes sense and it's easy to learn. PM even gives you a nice visual feedback on it - so I think it serves as a nice way to get people excited about the fact that they're learning tech and improving their game.

And that is important. We were all there at one point in Melee, and hopefully we all remember how cool it felt when we started L-cancelling and were way faster than the people at school who hadn't read about that trick online yet, hahaha.

So L-cancelling is fine. It's good for the health of the game, even if it is arbitrary to a player who plays perfectly.

Good players don't miss it. The reason L-cancel rates for high level players aren't always 100% is because it doesn't count edge cancelled aerials, which players routinely do. Also, some people (like me) don't bother to L-cancel a move they killed with. (for instance, no reason to l-cancel that knee I hit at 90%.) Either way, though, that's a moot point. Humans being human, everyone is going to mess something like that up once in a while. You could make that argument for literally anything in the game. Punishing missed L-cancels, (which rarely ever happens) is NOT strategy.

****
I still don't see any answer on WHAT IS ABSURD to always perform an arbatritary/nonstrategic/usessly-difficult imput IF IT HAS A REWARD in a COMPETITIVE GAME.
******

I've said why like 4 times and you've ignored it every time. Here's a hint. One is because you could use your logic to justify any number of absolutely absurd mechanics and 2, it discourages new players from joining the competitive scene. If you want more, actually read my previous posts.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Auto-l-cancelling would remove that entire layer of strategy. You'd never be waiting for a good opening to go in and punish their whiffed L-cancel because you'd know that won't ever happen.

Your "strategy" exists with or without the L-Cancel. The strategy doesn't start with you L-Cancelling, since it's always preferred to do it. All it does is provide an extra window of punishment AND advantage. The only time I can think of not doing it intentionally is to Auto Cancel.

 

[Gidy]

I kind of wish that Project M wouldn't try to be like Melee. It's not like I have any problems with L Cancelling, but what's the point in adding Melee sounds and stages? It Should be it's own thing, and so a auto L cancel option should exist

 

[robosteven]

We were all there at one point in Melee, and hopefully we all remember how cool it felt when we started L-cancelling and were way faster than the people at school who hadn't read about that trick online yet, hahaha.

From day 1 of learning to l-cancel it's felt like an unnecessary button press. It never felt cool, it's always felt like a chore and always will.

Implementing wavelands and movement tricks? That feels "cool," and none of it's arbitrary or even necessary in many situations, but it helps when it works and none of it feels like it should happen automatically.

 

[masterpad]

Didn't i unwatch this threat?

My post was a reply that only stated the obvious point that you are wrong and can't provide anything other than logical fallacies and personal anecdotes to get your point across. Until you can do something besides that, your comments don't even deserve respect lmao

Pityful! what are the moderators doing?

Yeah - that's a good thing. If you mess up your tech skill, you can get punished. It's a very small window, but it's something to always look for, especially if you're playing against someone who really needs to hit his L-cancels, like Link or Gdorf.

In a world where everybody L-cancelled perfectly every time, it'd be a pointless mechanic and it could be removed without mattering. But we don't live in that world. We live in a world where even the best players will occasionally flub one, and everyone below 'best player' misses 'em routinely. (If you don't believe me, check your stats at the end of a match.) And when you miss an L-cancel that really mattered, it hurts.
Auto-l-cancelling would remove that entire layer of strategy. You'd never be waiting for a good opening to go in and punish their whiffed L-cancel because you'd know that won't ever happen.

Clear, descent explanation. But it will probably have as an answer: "none of the pro players ever miss their lcancel" which is false!

I've said it multiple times and you've never responded. What makes it abusurd

Good players don't miss it. The reason L-cancel rates for high level players aren't always 100% is because it doesn't count edge cancelled aerials, which players routinely do. Also, some people (like me) don't bother to L-cancel a move they killed with. (for instance, no reason to l-cancel that knee I hit at 90%.) Either way, though, that's a moot point. Humans being human, everyone is going to mess something like that up once in a while. You could make that argument for literally anything in the game. Punishing missed L-cancels, (which rarely ever happens) is NOT strategy.
I've said why like 4 times and you've ignored it every time. Here's a hint. One is because you could use your logic to justify any number of absolutely absurd mechanics and 2, it discourages new players from joining the competitive scene. If you want more, actually read my previous posts.

I apologize, i didn't left your reply unanswered on purpose.I was distract by all the kindness i you can read .
You are exposing pretty interesting arguments but there is the problem in it:
The game has been made with an input(the lcancel) that has a purpose (interupted landing animation to allow quick offensive or defensive reaction) and BECAUSE it is a difficult imput for beginners and elders supposly never miss to perform it (these are your definitive arguments), the imput should be erease?!!!
This has nothing to do with game design! the imput function still helps: e.g:using Fair with DK and not landing for hours!

Your " Punishing missed L-cancels, (which rarely ever happens) is NOT strategy. "
is nothing but confusing for the "debate" because opponents doesn't only looks for a flaw in a PATICULAR move to punish it but their are also looking in general for when their opponent are expose. THAT IS WHY, while landing like a sack of potatoes(without lcancel) after a Fair with my DK, my opponent doesn't have to think of punishing a none-lcancel landing before looking if he can punish me. He will just stryke at whatever could look like a flaw BUT I do have to rely on l-cancel to protect myself.
And one more word for your your last , messiah word: Strategy
L-cancel on landind is not strategy=>Auto Lcancel
Shielding on hit-box is not Strategy=>Auto Shield? (yeah is fetched but the previous line too!)
I will repeat it again before try to "UnWatch" this thread again:
You are going against the basic competitive game philosophy! by even saying lcancel is frightening for beginners.
What ? difficulty for diificulty? no dificulty for being able to protect myself or combo my opponent!
I don't know what other fighting games you have played in your life to not see that lcancel is nothing but a genious thing.
But just do a pool (aren't there pool function for threads? or you are afraid of the results) or release your AUto-Lcancel PM-mod so we could make a clean sweep on all this. PMDevTeam all ready spoke anything else is parasitizing.
BEGINNERS WILL DEAL WITH LCANCEL, >THERE ARE NOTHING REALLY DIFFICULT AND THE PLEASURE TO PERFORM A DK COMBO (shfflUair=>shfflUair=>Fair at low%) IS DELIGHFUL BECAUSE LCANCEL MAKE IT HARDER!
AND THIS IS ALL NORMAL BECAUSE GRABING THE LEDGE COULD BE CONFIGURED TO MANUAL WITH A SPECIFIC INPUT TO PERFORM AT THE LEDGE , AND IT WILL BE PERFECTLY MAKING SENSE!!!

now for those who wants to support a more profitable proposition:
http://smashboards.com/threads/my-contribution-to-pm-going-futher-than-the-l-cancel-blink.395549/

 

[Gidy]

From day 1 of learning to l-cancel it's felt like an unnecessary button press. It never felt cool, it's always felt like a chore and always will.

Implementing wavelands and movement tricks? That feels "cool," and none of it's arbitrary or even necessary in many situations, but it helps when it works and none of it feels like it should happen automatically.

Agreed. It's not like it's hard to do, but it is unnecessary from a game design stand point. It would also help more people get into the game if 50% lag decrease on all aerial attack, and I don't see a reason why that would be bad.

 

[robosteven]

I don't know what other fighting games you have played in your life to not see that lcancel is nothing but a genious thing.

Street Fighter, Marvel, MK, Killer Instinct, KoF, Skullgirls, ****ing Clay Fighter. All have no landing lag, none require l-cancelling.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Street Fighter, Marvel, MK, Killer Instinct, KoF, Skullgirls, ****ing Clay Fighter. All have no landing lag, none require l-cancelling.

Yea, and jumping into people is already a calculated risk, esp in those games.

Edit: Those games have landing lag too, it's just not obscenely long compared to Smash

 

[metaXzero]

Kirby also sometimes benefits from not L-canceling. Most of Kirby's landing lag animations have him low to the ground like he's ducking. This allows alot of character's shield grabs to whiff over Kirby. L-canceling reduces the time Kirby's in that low stance and thus increases his chance of getting grabbed by reactionary shield grabs or dash dance grabs.

I'm surprised this topic is still going. In the end, L-cancel was a design choice from Smash 64 and Melee and the PMDT decided to carry it over in PM. A very questionable choice, but a choice that carries its own distinct feel compared to a game game with low landing lag by default. As for having it as an option, I heard its doable. Ultimately though, L-cancel will always be a part of PM. I mean, wasn't the topic part of what eventually lead to dissolving of the Brawl+ team which back then went with auto-l-cancel?

 

[Chzrm3]

The difference between you guys and the PMBR is that you seem to want to design a game for yourselves. A game that doesn't force you to L-cancel, because you've already mastered it. It's wonderful that you're so good at smash that L-canceling is no big deal for you, but what about the people who aren't as great as you? Isn't it nice for them to have a tech that they can learn and master before jumping into the fire? Isn't it nice for low-level players to have a point of skill differentiation, just the same as high level players?

Why should the game only be designed around you, when the game is played by a vast spectrum of different people?

You aren't looking at this from the perspective of someone who's new to Smash, or someone who's new to Melee/PM's style of Smash. You're only looking at it through the eyes of a longtime Smash veteran who long since forgot what it first felt like to inaugurate yourself into the world of advanced Smash tech.

From day 1 of learning to l-cancel it's felt like an unnecessary button press. It never felt cool, it's always felt like a chore and always will.

Implementing wavelands and movement tricks? That feels "cool," and none of it's arbitrary or even necessary in many situations, but it helps when it works and none of it feels like it should happen automatically.

So we're pretty much polar opposites in this regard. I was a DK main back in high school, and learning to L-cancel felt legitimately empowering. I loved it, and it was a 'gateway' tech in a way. It definitely bridged the gap between casual and competitive for me and my friends, and got us hungry for more ATs. Because it's such a demonstrable power spike it also motivated us, even in an environment where our Yoshi, Game and Watch and DK were being shredded by the Falcos, Marths and Sheiks of the school.

Perhaps my connection to the tech is sentimental, but I don't think it's a stretch to see new players today getting their feet wet with ATs in the same way.

Good players don't miss it.

In an ideal world, good players never mess up their DI, or never miss a wavedash into a ledge grab, or never make any technical errors. But that isn't realistic, so I don't think a game should be designed around the expectation of ideal play.

Your "strategy" exists with or without the L-Cancel. The strategy doesn't start with you L-Cancelling, since it's always preferred to do it. All it does is provide an extra window of punishment AND advantage. The only time I can think of not doing it intentionally is to Auto Cancel.

If someone misses an L-cancel, you can punish them. How is that still an option if you can't L-cancel, and therefore can't miss an L-cancel? O.o

Clear, descent explanation. But it will probably have as an answer: "none of the pro players ever miss their lcancel" which is false!

Haha, it's all good, I was expecting people to tell me to kill myself for being a filthy casual, so comparatively this was pretty friendly.

By the way, have fun with DK! He's so much fun in PM, I love him. If you ever wanna do DK dittos or just friendlies in PM, shoot me a message. A lot of my PM friends have moved on to Smash 4 (RIP), so I'm always looking for new people to play. :D

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

The difference between you guys and the PMBR is that you seem to want to design a game for yourselves. A game that doesn't force you to L-cancel, because you've already mastered it. It's wonderful that you're so good at smash that L-canceling is no big deal for you, but what about the people who aren't as great as you? Isn't it nice for them to have a tech that they can learn and master before jumping into the fire? Isn't it nice for low-level players to have a point of skill differentiation, just the same as high level players?

Why should the game only be designed around you, when the game is played by a vast spectrum of different people?

On the topic of new players: I have some friends who recently got into smash within the past year or so who initially thought L-Cancelling was dumb and didn't understand why it was necessary. I explained it to them, and after getting pummeled by better players they now do it because they feel they have to in order to get better. There's no issue there, but the mechanic was really trivial to them when they first got into it.

If someone misses an L-cancel, you can punish them. How is that still an option if you can't L-cancel, and therefore can't miss an L-cancel? O.o

In this situation where the attacker commits to an aerial, a few things happen:
A) Attacker misjudges his distance, whiffs, gets punished (ideally, the attacker could retreat if the distance isn't bad)
B) Attacker hits the defender's shield, depending on the frame advantage on landing, punishment or advantage is taken.
C) Attacker hits his target, depending on the frame advantage on landing, punishment or advantage is taken.
D) Attacker gets anti-aired

I might have missed a few scenarios, but that's the jist.

Also, Dodging the aerial. So in the unlikely event that Landing Lag gets adjusted to L-Cancel length by default, the window of punishment still exists. Hardly anything would change "strategically" or "competitively"

 

[GP&B]

Just watching Top 16 of Aftershock alone, I rarely if ever saw L-Cancel drops or by extension punishes related to missing an L-Cancel. It really does not have that big of an effect on how punishes happen. As Aura stated, there's already a lot of factors going into the resulting effect of an aerial where you can get punished. Even Fox having as low landing lag as he does on Nair will almost certainly get punished for whiffing it.

 

[Bleck]

Kirby also sometimes benefits from not L-canceling. Most of Kirby's landing lag animations have him low to the ground like he's ducking. This allows alot of character's shield grabs to whiff over Kirby. L-canceling reduces the time Kirby's in that low stance and thus increases his chance of getting grabbed by reactionary shield grabs or dash dance grabs.

what kirby is benefitting from here isn't from l-canceling so much as it's boosted by l-canceling

because of the malleable nature of PM, even if automatic l-canceling were a thing and kirby was suddenly at a huge disadvantage because of it, they could just change his recovery animations so that he spends most of them flat - then he'd have the advantage you're talking about and the faster recovery, which would be a net buff

It's wonderful that you're so good at smash that L-canceling is no big deal for you, but what about the people who aren't as great as you? Isn't it nice for them to have a tech that they can learn and master before jumping into the fire?

no

 

[robosteven]

The difference between you guys and the PMBR is that you seem to want to design a game for yourselves. A game that doesn't force you to L-cancel, because you've already mastered it. It's wonderful that you're so good at smash that L-canceling is no big deal for you, but what about the people who aren't as great as you? Isn't it nice for them to have a tech that they can learn and master before jumping into the fire? Isn't it nice for low-level players to have a point of skill differentiation, just the same as high level players?

I can say with 100% certainty that players who don't know how to or cannot l-cancel would appreciate having their fighter made faster for them, as well as geared a tiny bit more towards fighting as opposed to being a tech-skill contest. Plus, skill differentiation would still be very present without l-cancelling.

Why should the game only be designed around you, when the game is played by a vast spectrum of different people?

Automatic l-cancelling would literally open the competitive scene up to a broader spectrum of players what are you even saying here

You aren't looking at this from the perspective of someone who's new to Smash, or someone who's new to Melee/PM's style of Smash. You're only looking at it through the eyes of a longtime Smash veteran who long since forgot what it first felt like to inaugurate yourself into the world of advanced Smash tech.

I've never known a person to pick up a new fighter and while they're learning how to play it say "These controls and mechanics are too easy. This game needs more convoluted techniques to make it so doing basic things is even harder." Getting over the hurdle to learn techniques is satisfying, but there's a point with certain mechanics that you have to ask yourself "should this hurdle even be here in the first place?" There are plenty of other hurdles in Smash that actually serve a purpose and aren't arbitrary.

 

[KeyOfTruth]

As Aura stated, there's already a lot of factors going into the resulting effect of an aerial where you can get punished. Even Fox having as low landing lag as he does on Nair will almost certainly get punished for whiffing it.

Yes but all of these other factors are purely from a mental standpoint. Punishing an L-Cancel does not come from a bad decision, but because the player did not practice the game to the extent he needed to. In Project M you not only need to practice against other minds, playstyles, and matchups, but you must also practice the game itself.

Also it is poor reasoning to suggest removing a technique just because there's plenty of other techniques on the board. Bad.

 

[GP&B]

Yes but all of these other factors are purely from a mental standpoint. Punishing an L-Cancel does not come from a bad decision, but because the player did not practice the game to the extent he needed to. In Project M you not only need to practice against other minds, playstyles, and matchups, but you must also practice the game itself.

Replace "Project M" with "nearly any fighting game" and this still applies.

Also it is poor reasoning to suggest removing a technique just because there's plenty of other techniques on the board. Bad.

I posted a damn summary of reasons why besides this. If you're going to continue not to acknowledge it in an attempt to make your points look good, then I'm not going to acknowledge your posts to spare myself from the repetition.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yes but all of these other factors are purely from a mental standpoint. Punishing an L-Cancel does not come from a bad decision, but because the player did not practice the game to the extent he needed to. In Project M you not only need to practice against other minds, playstyles, and matchups, but you must also practice the game itself.

Also it is poor reasoning to suggest removing a technique just because there's plenty of other techniques on the board. Bad.

Tech skill still needs purpose or you are putting more emphasis on practicing artificial tech barriers over actual game-play that transitions better into making someone a better player.

 

[Ningildo]

Red Ryu already said what I wanted to say, but...

Things like wavedashing, dacus etc. are techs that not only require swift fingers, but experience and knowledge to maximize it's usefulness. L-cancelling on the other hand is a button you have to press to not give free frame advantage to your opponent and requires very little experience to maximize it's usefulness (knowing the timing both on hit and on whiff is all there really is lol).

Then the options they give you. Wavedashing allows for better stage positioning, chasing for regrabs (marth fthrow) and so on. Dacus is mostly for extending your punish range but can be a situational movement option. L-cancelling just avoids giving free frame advantage and ensuring combos land properly. Also you HAVE to do it (characters like falcon don't wavedash often if at all, Dacus for some characters is trash, so those don't see universal use) because there's no reason not to unless you play icies.

It's not hard to do, doesn't add much and just is here becuz melee. I don't care much if it stays or goes, but god, have proper arguments for L-cancelling if you want to defend a arbitrary button press and provide proof instead of presenting a wall of text that's 99% based on theory, has no basis in practice, doesn't address opposition arguments because of that and doesn't amount to more then "more tech means harder to play and harder=better". Inb4 strawman accusation and not addressing my arguments.

Also, at this point the PMDT has heard enough and read enough threads like these to weigh pros and cons of L-cancelling and make their decision. L-cancelling threads are flame bait at this point and basically consists of one guy that thought he found the truth and wants to share this fresh, never before seen truth with the world. Yes, generalizing, but it's true. We've all heard the EXACT same arguments, pro and anti, at this point, but some uninformed (read:not able to use forum search) soul thought otherwise.

I don't want to boss anyone around, but can we, for the sake of not wasting time, lock future L-cancelling threads on sight, maybe, please?

 

[KeyOfTruth]

Replace "Project M" with "nearly any fighting game" and this still applies.

How is this relevant when we are discussing Project M specifically?

Replace "Project M" with "nearly any fighting game" and this still applies.


I posted a damn summary of reasons why besides this. If you're going to continue not to acknowledge it in an attempt to make your points look good, then I'm not going to acknowledge your posts to spare myself from the repetition.

Last I checked I had replied to nearly all of your posts with logical, detailed, and clear explanations and rebuttals. Furthermore your word choice and desire to single me out suggests that you are in fact degrading me in an attempt to disregard my logic as fraudulent. However, if I am mistaken and I have truly neglected any important points you have made for your argument please bring them to my attention and I will reply to them respectfully.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

How is this relevant when we are discussing Project M specifically?

It's a part of game design and shows other examples of such.

You can make an additional input to get an EX version of a move but that has gameplay because you use meter for that. The attacker makes a relevant choice.

 

[KeyOfTruth]

It's a part of game design and shows other examples of such.

You can make an additional input to get an EX version of a move but that has gameplay because you use meter for that. The attacker makes a relevant choice.

It's nice of you to try and explain GP&B's statement, however unless you can read his mind unlike myself your explanation is just an assumption of what GP&B truly meant behind his words.

 

[GP&B]

How is this relevant when we are discussing Project M specifically?

It came off as if you felt Project M were one of the few that had those qualities.

Last I checked I had replied to nearly all of your posts with logical, detailed, and clear explanations and rebuttals. Furthermore your word choice and desire to single me out suggests that you are in fact degrading me in an attempt to disregard my logic as fraudulent. However, if I am mistaken and I have truly neglected any important points you have made for your argument please bring them to my attention and I will reply to them respectfully.

Then you need to check again. There were multiple cases where you bolded one piece to focus on but then outright ignored critical information that followed after, leaving me to constantly clarify and repeat statements. Sorry if I've been short with you, but I lose interest in typing out thorough responses when most of it gets ignored in favor of taking small bytes and pretending the rest of the evidence doesn't somehow exist. It's incredibly dishonest and makes statements like this laughable.

The summary I was referring to was this:

-L-Canceling is an arbitrary input, don't need to explain this as we've already went over it
-The input for it is trivialized by using multiple inputs and the Grab button doesn't even have a fail window
-L-Canceling is a barrier early on that falls off later in its difficulty of execution yet because it lacks any other inherent value, it serves no other purpose than to increase the skill barrier for new players while the most it does for top players is increase the risk of arthritis (mostly joking, but it's that pointless)
-When it comes to human error (the point that was originally the crux of your argument for L-Canceling), the game has many legitimately more valuable techniques with high execution barriers and a much better risk:reward scenario going for them. The loss of L-Canceling relative to these would be insignificant.

To further add on to this with real observations, I was watching Top 16 of Aftershock and rarely saw failed L-Cancels and more importantly almost never saw situations where failed L-Cancels lead to any form of significant turnaround or punish. Execution error in general was not especially common (it is top level players so it's to be expected) so most of the major punishes came off of mental play.

 

[Quillion]

Because the extra button press is really the tipping point that would determine if this game is campy or not.

Look at Melee. As we approach 20XX and more people can L-cancel on shield, hit, and whiff, we're seeing a rise in safe, zone-focused play with very little punish opportunity.

 

[metaXzero]

what kirby is benefitting from here isn't from l-canceling so much as it's boosted by l-canceling

because of the malleable nature of PM, even if automatic l-canceling were a thing and kirby was suddenly at a huge disadvantage because of it, they could just change his recovery animations so that he spends most of them flat - then he'd have the advantage you're talking about and the faster recovery, which would be a net buff

I don't think you quite got what I was saying. The benefit of this is the mixup. There is no mixup here if you only have automatic l-cancel. You just end up with either an attack that can always be grabbed with one timing or an attack that is completely safe from shield grabs/dash dance grabs. Overall, removing the depth of it all.

Like I said though, I wasn't arguing to keep L-cancel just because Kirby has a reason to not L-cancel every single aerial. That was moreso a funny fact.

 

[AcousticAdrian]

L-Canceling actually adds a few more defensive options to an opponent in shield, thanks to the existence of Shield DI and Shield Angling. You can tilt your shield up to potentially mess up an opponent's L-Cancel/Fast Fall timing, and with Shield DI you can move yourself out of an attacker's multi-hit attack to the same effect.

 

[KeyOfTruth]

Sorry if I've been short with you, but I lose interest in typing out thorough responses when most of it gets ignored in favor of taking small bytes and pretending the rest of the evidence doesn't somehow exist.

Yes misunderstandings can be frustrating when trying to portray a certain angle or view for the sake of persuasion. However I assure you I did not neglect any of your thorough responses intentionally. I'd be thankful if you didn't jump to conclusions.

My response to your summary was as follows:

L-Cancelling does serve a purpose, just as any other input does. As I've explained before, despite being an arbitrary input, L-Cancelling still holds a purpose. Just as you must press A to punch and B to shoot a fireball, you must press L for an L-Cancel.
The only difference here is that performing an L-Cancel is not an independent choice. Whether or not your going to perform an L-Cancel is dependent on a prerequisite decision. If a player chooses to perform an aerial attack, said player also chooses to perform an L-Cancel as well. If your still having difficulty understanding this topic, think of it in terms of choice and consequence. (I do not mean to depict L-Cancel in a negative perspective) If a responsible adult makes a decision (good or bad) he/she must be ready to accept the consequence(s). Put simply, players do choose to L-Cancel, it is just an indirect choice. Aerial attacks and L-cancelling are one in this understanding. You can argue that this raises the skill floor, and I won't really argue with that, it's legitimate. L-Cancelling isn't supposed to make the game easier, it introduces more human error to the game and frankly it doesn't matter if there are more worthy or justified techniques already present in Project M, that's not a sound enough reason to remove a universal technique as basic as L-Cancelling.

My entire response to your summary was relevant toward all of your points, with the exception of one I did not cover: Z button not having a fail window. I simply bold the parts of a quote I feel require greater focus and attention to disprove or persuade, but I will go through each individual point for your sake.

-L-Canceling is an arbitrary input, don't need to explain this as we've already went over it

Nothing to really respond to here, you are correct in claiming that L-Cancel is an arbitrary input, we at least seem to be able to agree on that much. However, while you did explain how L-Cancel is an arbitrary input, you never touched on why that is significant enough to warrant the removal of it.

-The input for it is trivialized by using multiple inputs and the Grab button doesn't even have a fail window

This is an excellent point and one I had sadly overlooked in my initial response. This is extremely counterproductive to a technique that is supposed to require specific timing, therefore Project M should remove this. I can't say much more as this is a serious flaw that needs to be fixed to truly justify the stay of L-Cancel, but that's not to say it should be removed. No in the event Project M does remove the Z button option L-Cancel can still be defended for it's worth (No matter how insignificant that may be when compared to other techniques present).

-L-Canceling is a barrier early on that falls off later in its difficulty of execution yet because it lacks any other inherent value, it serves no other purpose than to increase the skill barrier for new players while the most it does for top players is increase the risk of arthritis (mostly joking, but it's that pointless)

Please read my original response, its beginning catered directly for this point.

-When it comes to human error (the point that was originally the crux of your argument for L-Canceling), the game has many legitimately more valuable techniques with high execution barriers and a much better risk:reward scenario going for them. The loss of L-Canceling relative to these would be insignificant.

As stated not too long ago by myself:

Also it is poor reasoning to suggest removing a technique just because there's plenty of other techniques on the board. Bad.

In which shortly after you replied:

I posted a damn summary of reasons why besides this.

Apologies if my huge wall of text overwhelms you, but feel free to reply and correct any points you feel are incorrect or need further explanation.

 

[Phaiyte]

Still waiting on someone to post something that isn't just a logical fallacy or strawman in favor of L cancel. All anyone has to do is say 1 thing that proves L canceling isn't a totally arbitrary input barrier that serves no legitimate purpose and the argument will likely vanish forever, even if L cancelling is never removed. It's honestly that easy. Alas, after 14 years it still cannot be done. But then again maybe it really is difficult to ask of a community that's composed of like 80% man children, if not actual children, given the game's origin of being designed for 10 year olds.

 

[KeyOfTruth]

Still waiting on someone to post something that isn't just a logical fallacy or strawman in favor of L cancel. All anyone has to do is say 1 thing that proves L canceling isn't a totally arbitrary input barrier that serves no legitimate purpose and the argument will likely vanish forever, even if L cancelling is never removed. It's honestly that easy. Alas, after 14 years it still cannot be done. But then again maybe it really is difficult to ask of a community that's composed of like 80% man children, if not actual children, given the game's origin of being designed for 10 year olds.

Still waiting on the day someone reads my posts.

L-Cancelling does serve a purpose, just as any other input does. As I've explained before, despite being an arbitrary input, L-Cancelling still holds a purpose. Just as you must press A to punch and B to shoot a fireball, you must press L for an L-Cancel.
The only difference here is that performing an L-Cancel is not an independent choice. Whether or not your going to perform an L-Cancel is dependent on a prerequisite decision. If a player chooses to perform an aerial attack, said player also chooses to perform an L-Cancel as well. If your still having difficulty understanding this topic, think of it in terms of choice and consequence. (I do not mean to depict L-Cancel in a negative perspective) If a responsible adult makes a decision (good or bad) he/she must be ready to accept the consequence(s). Put simply, players do choose to L-Cancel, it is just an indirect choice. Aerial attacks and L-cancelling are one in this understanding. You can argue that this raises the skill floor, and I won't really argue with that, it's legitimate. L-Cancelling isn't supposed to make the game easier, it introduces more human error to the game and frankly it doesn't matter if there are more worthy or justified techniques already present in Project M, that's not a sound enough reason to remove a universal technique as basic as L-Cancelling.