"Why is this stage banned?" A Q&A regarding stage legality

[ItoI6]

Why isn't lylat a starter?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Because people don't like it. LMAO

No, really, it's just that....

 

[Tesh]

Lylat lags offline.

 

[Ghostbone]

Why isn't lylat a starter?

It is at any reasonable tournament...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Why isn't lylat a starter?

Short answer: people are stupid.
Long answer: people are ****ing ********.

 

[-LzR-]

Shorter answer: It is.

 

[Tesh]

Lylat isn't always a starter because most of the time, people can't find that 7th starter that makes the striking process actually work. Ps2 could fill that spot nicely, but alot of people don't think so. Its generally Lylat or Ps1 in that 5th spot though.

 

[cHp]

Is there a reason why Rumble Falls is banned? The hazards and stage structure are pretty predictable if you know the stage well. While the stage might provide a disadvantage for low mobility characters, isn't the point of a counterpick to be a stage that focuses on your character's strengths/opponent's weaknesses?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I think for the most part it's because that advantage is not just strong, but ridiculous. Many would claim that runaway on RFs is as good as runaway on, say, NPC. I'm not quite sure myself, but the stage was never given much testing at all (seriously-nobody played the stage, and they just banned it out of hand. Gratz, brawl community). Also, the "choke point" was mentioned as a potential issue.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Rumble Falls is a weird case.
-Some people complain about the spike (silly, really silly, it is easily avoided).
-Others about Walkoff (your opponent is forced to jump eventually. Wait, bait and punish).
-Others says that Circle camping is possible. I don't think so, there's many tight spots that force people to approach....
-IMO, the only event that breaks matches is the Speed Up... There's some characters with weak vertical mobility can't do anything during it but trying and climb.... That's a really ******** behavior... :/

But even with no solid criteria, it's been universally agreed to be banned (see also: Corneria).

 

[Ghostbone]

The speed up is really significant, it's random and depending on the part can really screw over some characters.

 

[DMG]

Rumble Falls is a weird case.
-Some people complain about the spike (silly, really silly, it is easily avoided).
-Others about Walkoff (your opponent is forced to jump eventually. Wait, bait and punish).
-Others says that Circle camping is possible. I don't think so, there's many tight spots that force people to approach....
-IMO, the only event that breaks matches is the Speed Up... There's some characters with weak vertical mobility can't do anything during it but trying and climb.... That's a really ******** behavior... :/

But even with no solid criteria, it's been universally agreed to be banned (see also: Corneria).

The problem is that the stage is a burden. It's constantly something you have to worry about. Not take advantage of, not utilize in a skillful way to outplay the opponent, but straight up worry about it. It's one thing to use the layout and pacing of, say RC, to your advantage, but RF is a whole nother monster.

Is there a reason why Rumble Falls is banned? The hazards and stage structure are pretty predictable if you know the stage well. While the stage might provide a disadvantage for low mobility characters, isn't the point of a counterpick to be a stage that focuses on your character's strengths/opponent's weaknesses?

Predictable =/= acceptable. Look at 75M, Corneria, Bridge, etc.

If the stage were something like RC, where you can abuse your mobility advantage over people in that fashion, sure. But most matchups boil down to avoiding the stage and avoiding the opponent. It's not "Oh hey Wario is faster than my character, welp GG", but "Oh hey TL is faster than Peach, great now she loses" or "Well I guess DK wins because Yoshi can't catch him"


(not that low tiers matter, just trying to explain the difference between some high tiers having the advantage, and the stage favoring the faster character regardless of tier placement.)



RF is one mess of a stage. In the end, it's not shown to be suitable for play. If you want to play on it more extensively and take a deeper look, by all means go for it. But don't say I didn't warn you of how awful it is. Even if there was a discernible pattern on speedups and slowdowns where you could flowchart it, or made image maps of key locations, it wouldn't change how bad the stage is. I'd give up on any hope for legalizing that, even if you're a hardcore RF fan

 

[ぱみゅ]

Least it has Bramble Blast :V

 

[cHp]

ok thanks for the info

 

[rm88]

Quick question - is Port Town Aero Dive currently considered a strong counterpick? is it banned? My friends and I 'adopted' it for a while and we personally believe there's nothing really worth banning about it. After a couple of matches avoiding the cars becomes second nature, while still being a good reward if you try to use them to kill your opponent. The lack of ledges is, in my opinion, not that bad, and take in mind I play as Ivysaur a lot.

I'm not trying to imply I'm right and people who oppose it are wrong, I genuinely want to know the general consensus on PTAD.

 

[Ghostbone]

Quick question - is Port Town Aero Dive currently considered a strong counterpick? is it banned? My friends and I 'adopted' it for a while and we personally believe there's nothing really worth banning about it. After a couple of matches avoiding the cars becomes second nature, while still being a good reward if you try to use them to kill your opponent. The lack of ledges is, in my opinion, not that bad, and take in mind I play as Ivysaur a lot.

I'm not trying to imply I'm right and people who oppose it are wrong, I genuinely want to know the general consensus on PTAD.

It's not that bad.

Though apparently MK is broken without ledges because of his recovery and his gimping ability.

Spoiler

Oh and he's also broken on every stage with ledges >.>

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Quick question - is Port Town Aero Dive currently considered a strong counterpick? is it banned? My friends and I 'adopted' it for a while and we personally believe there's nothing really worth banning about it. After a couple of matches avoiding the cars becomes second nature, while still being a good reward if you try to use them to kill your opponent. The lack of ledges is, in my opinion, not that bad, and take in mind I play as Ivysaur a lot.

I'm not trying to imply I'm right and people who oppose it are wrong, I genuinely want to know the general consensus on PTAD.

PTAD is generally opposed by most of the smash community due to the power of the cars and the lack of ledges.

...As far as reasons that actually matter to players who are willing to learn how the stage works (read: smart ones), I got nothing. There's really nothing wrong with PTAD, it's just that most of the smash community for whatever reason dislikes the stage. I can't explain it either, really. It's bull****, because I ****ing LOVE PTAD, and I will strongly recommend that if your play group enjoys the stage, to keep it on-there's no good reason not to.

It is worth mentioning, however, that it is almost certainly a fairly strong counterpick for MK, Pikachu, Diddy, and Falco, among others.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

BPC: PTAD is also one of the strongest CPs in the game for Pit, outside of things like 75m.

I've always wonder why people ban Yoshi's Melee. Is it just one of those stages that people just hate?

 

[Tesh]

I always felt like YI:M was a lot of fun. And with LGLs becoming a real standard for tournaments, I can't see a problem with the stage being at least a counterpick.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

BUT GUYS, A WALKOFF D3 CAN CG LIKE 4 CHARACTERS OFF <== I get this sometimes
Last I checked, we have a stage which is pretty much akin to an auto-lose for 80% of the cast against Ice Climbers. Final Destination

Spoiler

and Bridge of Eldin to a certain extent

.

Maybe people don't like small blastzones? I guess I would like those, I've always played characters who kill really early.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

BPC: PTAD is also one of the strongest CPs in the game for Pit, outside of things like 75m.

To the extent that we should worry about it?

I've always wonder why people ban Yoshi's Melee. Is it just one of those stages that people just hate?

It was never given a chance. Melee tradition says it must be banned.

 

[DMG]

BPC: PTAD is also one of the strongest CPs in the game for Pit, outside of things like 75m.

I've always wonder why people ban Yoshi's Melee. Is it just one of those stages that people just hate?

PTAD isn't a problem because of Pit, or anyone of that nature. PTAD walks a very fine line between banned and CP imo. It's not clear cut broken in some aspects, but the stage changes allow very strong possibilities of running away, which is never a good thing.

Some parts of the stage are clearly not broken. A little under half of the transformations, on their own, are completely acceptable. The other transformations however dumb down fighting into 1 of 2 things:

1. Run away from the person because they can't catch you

2. Both players staying away from each other due to hazard coming into play


Those two scenarios occur frequently on the stage. Besides already lobsided matchups, you don't see many people trying to use the cars or layout specific exploits (aside from the general strats like running away) because the risk reward ratio for attempting it isn't convincing enough unless you're already in a dominating MU or lead. In those cases, using the stage to your advantage wouldn't change anything besides probably dying to an aspect or facet of a stage instead of a character. Which doesn't feel like a convincing argument for a stage if the only strong point is "Well instead of dying to a MK dair gimp, you can get Daired into the cars and then die that way" or something along those lines.


Either way, the stage design is terrible and having it legal honestly would not deepen competitive Brawl by any measurable means. I can confidently say that, with Xyro having PTAD legal for god knows how long in Texas and playing on it in everything from friendlies, MM, bracket, low tiers, and teams.

I always felt like YI:M was a lot of fun. And with LGLs becoming a real standard for tournaments, I can't see a problem with the stage being at least a counterpick.

The main issue with the stage is planking. That should have been obvious to most people. CG off the slopes is very mild compared to planking on the stage. The middle section of the stage is quite strong for some of the better plankers in the game, and the way it is set up shores up the weaknesses and holes in their planking quite well. If you have a LGL on everyone in the cast, you could think about legalizing it. Whether you need one on the entire cast... another subject for another time.

To the extent that we should worry about it?



It was never given a chance. Melee tradition says it must be banned.

It was given a chance in Texas. Hell, just about everything was. I think our region had Corneria legal longer than anyone else, and look at how garbage that stage was!

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Whoawhoawhoa, I wasn't saying it was a problem.

Pit doesn't really break many stages on his own. Really the only things I could see him breaking is circles like Temple.

 

[Xyro77]

DMG, i LOVE port town. Such a good stage.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

PTAD isn't a problem because of Pit, or anyone of that nature. PTAD walks a very fine line between banned and CP imo. It's not clear cut broken in some aspects, but the stage changes allow very strong possibilities of running away, which is never a good thing.

Some parts of the stage are clearly not broken. A little under half of the transformations, on their own, are completely acceptable. The other transformations however dumb down fighting into 1 of 2 things:

1. Run away from the person because they can't catch you

Example? I can't really think of a transformation where this is possible... How would it work on, well, any transformaion?

2. Both players staying away from each other due to hazard coming into play

Potential issue... But remember to compare it to, say, PS1 or Delfino; stages that have similar issues.

Those two scenarios occur frequently on the stage. Besides already lobsided matchups, you don't see many people trying to use the cars or layout specific exploits (aside from the general strats like running away) because the risk reward ratio for attempting it isn't convincing enough unless you're already in a dominating MU or lead. In those cases, using the stage to your advantage wouldn't change anything besides probably dying to an aspect or facet of a stage instead of a character. Which doesn't feel like a convincing argument for a stage if the only strong point is "Well instead of dying to a MK dair gimp, you can get Daired into the cars and then die that way" or something along those lines.

O.o? I don't understand what you're saying at all, mostly because "convincing argument for the stage" isn't what we need; what we need is a convincing argument against it. And it plays pretty differently from most other stages.

Either way, the stage design is terrible and having it legal honestly would not deepen competitive Brawl by any measurable means. I can confidently say that, with Xyro having PTAD legal for god knows how long in Texas and playing on it in everything from friendlies, MM, bracket, low tiers, and teams.

I can confidently say the opposite from a ****load of friendlies.
/obvnotthesamecred

I'm just seriously disinclined to trust you on this one, mostly because I simply do not see the problem with the stage at all.

The main issue with the stage is planking. That should have been obvious to most people. CG off the slopes is very mild compared to planking on the stage. The middle section of the stage is quite strong for some of the better plankers in the game, and the way it is set up shores up the weaknesses and holes in their planking quite well. If you have a LGL on everyone in the cast, you could think about legalizing it. Whether you need one on the entire cast... another subject for another time.

Stage-specific LGL. Seriously. A lesser evil to banning a stage that is, again, really unique in brawl.

 

[DMG]

If you make stage specific rules to address its faults, why not do that across the board and just solve stage problems with gameplay rules? No circle camping, no walkoff camping, no planking, no sharking, no infinite abuse, etc? I mean surely you could make Hyrule or Big Blue legal if you made a rule against abusing the stage. What would be the point of restricting stage useage if you make sure rules cover any gameplay issues you would encounter?

I'd rather not have a stage legal, than make it legal under the pretenses that you are covering the flaws through rules. Especially when it's not a question of "Well we ARE stuck with playing on this stage, let's go with a lesser evil over a greater evil".

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

If you make stage specific rules to address its faults, why not do that across the board and just solve stage problems with gameplay rules? No circle camping, no walkoff camping, no planking, no sharking, no infinite abuse, etc? I mean surely you could make Hyrule or Big Blue legal if you made a rule against abusing the stage. What would be the point of restricting stage useage if you make sure rules cover any gameplay issues you would encounter?

Well... Make a fair rule to deal with circle camping. Enforceable, more or less discreet, and something you can check without, say, an infinite replay hack. Make a fair rule to deal with walkoff camping. Some places (IIRC even Pound 5 at one point) had rules against sharking; many have rules against scrooging. This is a case (like a ban on Rudder Camping) where a simple, discreet rule solves virtually the only serious issue the stage has.

I'd rather not have a stage legal, than make it legal under the pretenses that you are covering the flaws through rules. Especially when it's not a question of "Well we ARE stuck with playing on this stage, let's go with a lesser evil over a greater evil".

But why not always go for the lesser evil, especially when the lesser evil is almost nonexistent and the greater evil is considerable?

 

[Tesh]

Most tournaments that have LGLs have them on the entire cast. If it ain't worse than MK planking, we shouldn't even be talking about it. I really don't think planking in the pit is an issue. First of all, you can't punish anti plankers with a gimp unless you have a spike (and what planking character even has a good one?) AND they fail horribly. The most important problem with effective planking is invincible aerials keeping the planker safe. However with a 2nd ledge, the anti planking character can make use of the same thing, evening the odds. Even if we had to add a stage specific LGL, it would be no worse than the extra rules we put on MK to keep him in the game. There is a clearly a precedent set that we should nerf things rather than banning them.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I can't think of many characters that can recover safely on the ledgeless platform on PTAD. And if you go for the hit to bottom to recover, you giving your opponent free damage and risk falling through a hole, which there is a hole of some size inbetween each stop point.

Also most of the stop points have walk off and walls, this helps King DDD with making his good match-ups much better, except MK, heck other character get locks on each other like Ike due to the walls. Everyone except for maybe 6-7 characters has a terrible recovery here, because most of the cast can't land safely on the ledgeless platform.

FD is polar? Try this stage, it's much much worse than even people call out that and Brinstar. Lucario and Link are horrible here, this I know for sure.

 

[Tesh]

PTAD is horrible. If you think MK is tough on Brinstar or RC, try recovering with no ledges and see how many options you have.

 

[Life]

RR, the holes in PTAD are totally predictable, you aren't risking anything special by hitting off the floor.

Also, think of it this way: if you hit the "floor" on any other stage, you immediately lose your stock.

 

[Tesh]

Any other stage has ledges.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

RR, the holes in PTAD are totally predictable, you aren't risking anything special by hitting off the floor.

Also, think of it this way: if you hit the "floor" on any other stage, you immediately lose your stock.

It's not reasonably predictable for some parts that have small hole you can't even plan for. You can accidentally fall through a hole that lasts less than a second between transformations 1-2.

Predictable, sure but for any parts on this stage it's not reasonable.

And the floor helps but no ledges is far worse and doesn't make up for it.

 

[cHp]

Any other stage has ledges.

lolmariocircuit

 

[Tesh]

Well for those of you that just joined the conversation, we are talking about stage legality. We all have different roles here.

BPC will cite some deep competitive idealist logic.

ADHD and other folks will come in and talk about which stages are lame.

And I just cite precedence. If "A" is legal then why isn't "B" legal?

No other LEGAL stage is so effortlessly harsh on recoveries. On RC and Frigate you need to actively get your opponent into specific positions are specific times to make use of their weaknesses there. PTAD however is ledgeless for the entire "usable" portion of the stage. And I say that because every stop where it lands is just a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE campfest or "avoid the cars" .

All you need to do is push your opponent offstage and then make sure they don't recover high. Very very simple imo. As for bouncing on the tracks, you still wind up either A) making it through the platform from the track knockback, in which case you are in hitstun and totally free for anyone waiting above to spike you back down or hit with a strong smash, or B) The knockback from the track doesn't bounce you high enough and you STILL need to use your up b and go helpless right in front of your opponent.

 

[Ghostbone]

Really the only things I could see him breaking is circles like Temple.

Mario Bros.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Well for those of you that just joined the conversation, we are talking about stage legality. We all have different roles here.

BPC will cite some deep competitive idealist logic.

ADHD and other folks will come in and talk about which stages are lame.

And I just cite precedence. If "A" is legal then why isn't "B" legal?

LMAO If my sig wasn't taken, I'd sig this.

No other LEGAL stage is so effortlessly harsh on recoveries.

And no other legal stage offers such an easy ticket back. Seriously, you may get punished, but it beats dying. Don't get me wrong, this is lovely theorycraft, but in all the playtesting I've done, and most of the playtesting various others have done, it's simply not as awful as you make it out to be.

 

[DMG]

And of course, the countless playtesting on various stages that I've had the "pleasure" of doing is always discredited because people don't see what I'm talking about. There has never been, and will never be, problems with GG, RF, Brinstar, Norfair, Mansion, Pipes, etc apparently.


Everything... IS AN ILLUSION.....

 

[Tesh]

I doubt you tested ledge options vs ledge options thoroughly. It pretty much translates to whoever goes to the ledge first will lose because your invincibility wears off first. There are a number of extra things that many characters can do that aren't possible on other ledges.

All of a sudden people care about ledge games being broken? If Pipes is banned, MK should be banned. And none of that "but people don't main stages" junk.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Did you test with Orion?