"Why is this stage banned?" A Q&A regarding stage legality

[sunshade]

We could try making a custom stage which isolates the element of cave of life without creating circle or semicircle camping. Then from there try to determine of a cave of life in and of itself is a bannable offense.

If circle camping is the issue, why isn't Smashville banned? <.<

I think its not the stage but the character causing circle camping issues in this case. Nor is unbeatable from what tournament data indicates.

 

[DMG]

If circle camping is the issue, why isn't Smashville banned? <.<

If the stage layout allows blatant circle camping to the point where being faster/more mobile than your opponent secures a win across the entire cast, then it's a problem. Usually this is due to how large the stage is, because the more room you have the further away from them you can be after running away.

It's the difference between trying to catch a sprinter inside your house instead of trying to catch him on a football field. Both environments would have circles to abuse, but the more room you have the longer the sprinter can abuse his mobility advantage on you.


Take Sonic vs TL for example. If those 2 characters played on Hyrule Temple for example, there's no way TL would win. If Sonic ever gets the lead, it's basically game over. There's way too much area for TL to traverse in time to catch him.


Now, place those 2 on Smashville. While there is a circle for the stage, it's not so large that Sonic can move himself from 1 point to the other and completely outdistance TL by a significant margin over and over. You can't simply pick a faster character and go "you can't catch me", at least certainly not to any degree equivalent to what you can do on stages where it is a significant problem like Spear Pillar and Hyrule.


Having a circle itself? Not inherently bad. Having a "bad" circle like Hyrule, Hanenbow, etc? That's definitely a problem.

We could try making a custom stage which isolates the element of cave of life without creating circle or semicircle camping. Then from there try to determine of a cave of life in and of itself is a bannable offense.



I think its not the stage but the character causing circle camping issues in this case. Nor is unbeatable from what tournament data indicates.

Either way it wouldn't matter. There's not a single stage in Brawl that has a cave of life by itself, unaccompanied by a bad circle camping issue. Even if you did isolate the two and looked at it by itself, it wouldn't matter from a practical standpoint. There's no cave-like stage out there that also doesn't have circle camping or something else blatantly wrong; doing a hardcore analysis of cave qualities at this point would have no impact on the legality of stages regardless of what was shown.

 

[sunshade]

Good point, no need to test that which has no application to reality.

 

[Tesh]

YI:M has a "cave" without "circle". I mean sure alot of characters could probably avoid ganondorf there, but its not like that matters.

 

[DanGR]

I think its not the stage but the character causing circle camping issues in this case. Nor is unbeatable from what tournament data indicates.

What tournament data are you refering to?

If the stage layout allows blatant circle camping to the point where being faster/more mobile than your opponent secures a win across the entire cast, then it's a problem. Usually this is due to how large the stage is, because the more room you have the further away from them you can be after running away.

It's the difference between trying to catch a sprinter inside your house instead of trying to catch him on a football field. Both environments would have circles to abuse, but the more room you have the longer the sprinter can abuse his mobility advantage on you.


Take Sonic vs TL for example. If those 2 characters played on Hyrule Temple for example, there's no way TL would win. If Sonic ever gets the lead, it's basically game over. There's way too much area for TL to traverse in time to catch him.


Now, place those 2 on Smashville. While there is a circle for the stage, it's not so large that Sonic can move himself from 1 point to the other and completely outdistance TL by a significant margin over and over. You can't simply pick a faster character and go "you can't catch me", at least certainly not to any degree equivalent to what you can do on stages where it is a significant problem like Spear Pillar and Hyrule.


Having a circle itself? Not inherently bad. Having a "bad" circle like Hyrule, Hanenbow, etc? That's definitely a problem.

So basically, it's a matter of if the whole cast can potentially circle camp less mobile characters on the stage to victory?

Why's it matter how many are able to as long as one or a few can?- especially if that one of few are very prominent in the competitive scene? I don't see a very big discrepancy between banning a stage because of one very popular character and banning it because it's available for the whole cast, of which most aren't very viable at high levels anyways.

In fact, I was under the impression that the backroom as a voting whole agreed it was okay to ban stages because of single characters ruining them simply based on their actions. I'm looking at the BBR's reasoning for banning Luigi's Mansion atm, and MK & Olimar's prevalence on the stage is noted as one of the reasons for not having it legal. Also, Fox being 'too good' on a stage in Melee was the reason to ban it, apparently. (or so I hear. I didn't play melee on a very serious, competitive level)

I suppose I don't understand where the "if it's a problem for the whole cast, then you can ban it" mindset is coming from when past rulings seem to imply something different.

And I'm saying Smashville should be banned in the BBR's ruleset because MK's circle camping is a huge issue with the current ruleset.

 

[DMG]

It's not an issue of how many or how few, but rather to what degree is it abuseable. How many/how few can be a solid guideline or indicator of how overall abuseable a circle is, but it's not the end all be all factor.


If you're going strictly off the BBR ruleset, your guess is as good as mine over what stages should be labeled as. Under that ruleset, planking/scrooging/etc are completely unabridged and roam freely. Why Brinstar or Norfair would be considered legal under those rules is beyond me. But then again, what would be a starter stage? One that MK can't plank on continually like Castle Siege? I mean it just seems it would be hard coming up with an acceptable stagelist there.


If we're going off a more realistic ruleset, where you can expect a LGL and maybe an anti scrooging rule or broader anti stalling rule where the TO gets involved, that would definitely damper the ability of someone to circle around Smashville in a broken manner. Smashville's only problem is if MK is allowed to roam freely, but in a realistic tournament setting you'd probably have rules addressing that. If he is addressed, Smashville is definitely starter quality. If he's not, then definitely not starter quality, although the question then would be how would you label anything at that point.

 

[Tesh]

Any anti-scrooging rule could easily be equated to any anti circle camping rule.

"you may not cross under the stage from than 3 times consecutively without landing a hit"
"you may not go in a circle around the stage more than 3 times consecutively without landing a hit"

 

[DMG]

You could also use DQ people for not showing aggression when fighting

or don't allow people to touch the edge at all so that there is no way the edge is being used in a broken manner

or don't allow people to jump so that nothing broken happens from being in the air

or force people to shield break themselves if they run away for more than 30 seconds

Legalize Mario Bros, and prevent them from attacking or using the spawning enemy items, and prevent them from teching

Legalize Wario Ware, and tell the players they cannot succeed the minigames or else they are forced to stand onstage and let their advantage completely disappear before continuing the match

 

[Ghostbone]

You could also use DQ people for not showing aggression when fighting

or don't allow people to touch the edge at all so that there is no way the edge is being used in a broken manner

or don't allow people to jump so that nothing broken happens from being in the air

or force people to shield break themselves if they run away for more than 30 seconds

Legalize Mario Bros, and prevent them from attacking or using the spawning enemy items, and prevent them from teching

Legalize Wario Ware, and tell the players they cannot succeed the minigames or else they are forced to stand onstage and let their advantage completely disappear before continuing the match

Well yea that's the point.

Anti-scrooging rules are just as bad a rule as saying "You may not camp a walk-off" (which would probably allow many walk-off stages to be legal)
Rules against scrooging are subjective, hard to define and enforce, and are just another rule to limit Metaknight :/
(and unfairly nerf other characters)

 

[Tesh]

someone explain to me again why YI:M is banned? I forgot what the points were last time I asked.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

There's no good reason. At all.

 

[DMG]

YI M

It's pipes

Bad

 

[Tesh]

There are some reasons that weren't completely unfounded though. If I recall:
-Walkoff camping was broken with Olimar (clearly isn't true, but I can see alot of mid to low level players getting destroyed by it)
-Planking in the pit is broken. Now 2 ledges can hurt and help a planker. Imo the way the ledges are placed makes planking a low stakes game compared to other stages. People can grab the other ledge and fight back with invincibility of their own. Worst case scenario, the stage can have an lgl (we use an lgl to keep mk from being broken, why not a stage?)
-Cave of life breaks the game. No proof of this whatsoever. This is one of the only stages where the "cave of life" isnt bundled with circle camping. Teching in Brawl sucks and most of the kill moves will end before your tech does anyway.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

There are some reasons that weren't completely unfounded though. If I recall:
-Walkoff camping was broken with Olimar (clearly isn't true, but I can see alot of mid to low level players getting destroyed by it)
-Planking in the pit is broken. Now 2 ledges can hurt and help a planker. Imo the way the ledges are placed makes planking a low stakes game compared to other stages. People can grab the other ledge and fight back with invincibility of their own. Worst case scenario, the stage can have an lgl (we use an lgl to keep mk from being broken, why not a stage?)

Bingo. Neither of these reasons work. If planking on YI is broken, LGLs fix the issue and make the stage legitimate.

-Cave of life breaks the game. No proof of this whatsoever. This is one of the only stages where the "cave of life" isnt bundled with circle camping. Teching in Brawl sucks and most of the kill moves will end before your tech does anyway.

Yep, again, no proof.

 

[Ghostbone]

I disagree with having a stage only LGL...

I don't even see how planking is that much worse here than anywhere else.

I mean even Falco can combat planking here.

 

[Tesh]

I'm pretty sure planking isn't broken here. All you have to do is grab the other ledge next to your opponent right after he does. Then your invincibility will outlast his.

I imagine planking the ledge on the left pipe could be somewhat annoying as well. Though its an extremely dangerous game. The only decent planker that could score easy kills t here is pit (as his uair can send people behind him into the blast zone).

A stage specific LGL could still save the stage (if it needs saving) the way a character specific LGL saves MK.

 

[-LzR-]

Teching in Brawl sucks and most of the kill moves will end before your tech does anyway.

Care to explain what this is supposed to mean? Teching is really effective in Brawl.

 

[Tesh]

What I'm saying is that tech animations just take too long and its easy to get hit again after teching a ceiling. You stay in a crappy position and you still can get hit again before you can reset the situation most of the time. Which is exactly why Luigi's Mansion is ******** for 90% of the game. People can bounce you against the ceiling and being good at teching won't save you from a ridiculous situation.

On YI:M however its different.

 

[Ghostbone]

Which is exactly why Luigi's Mansion is ******** for 90% of the game. People can bounce you against the ceiling and being good at teching won't save you from a ridiculous situation..

Tech-roll on the floor.

 

[Tesh]

I'm not sure what you are getting at, but in the time it takes to bounce off the ceilings then back to the floor then tech, your opponent has a frame advantage. I don't really feel Luigi's Mansion is broken, but thats not the point I'm trying to make right now.

My point is that YI:M cave of life is no remotely gamebreaking.

 

[Ghostbone]

As in
You can escape any of the ceiling locks or whatever by tech-rolling on the floor away from the other player.

Never extensively tested it but that's how I get away from tornado really quickly on that stage.

But yea the cave of life on YI:M doesn't have that much of an effect...and it's not gamebreaking.

 

[Tesh]

Teching the blocks temporarily removes the ceiling anyway. I just don't see why this stage isn't legal. Since the general concensus is that we don't ban stages over a couple of characters, I don't see why pika/olimar/DDD would make this an issue.

 

[Ghostbone]

I just don't see why this stage isn't legal.

-how many players decided to ban it-

"lol what the hell the blastzones are close baaaaawwww it has a weird layout baaaaawwww two edges near each other baaaaawwww blocks baaaaawwww walk-off baaaaawwwww."

And that's that.

 

[Tesh]

I don't get, its less gay than RC/Brinstar/Japes and yet those are legal.

 

[Ghostbone]

Yea that's basically it.

Smashers are incredibly adverse to change, it's amazing.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't like that DDD can CG Lucario and Link up slopes. :<

I'm with DMG about pipes also.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Well... there are like 7 chars he can do this against, and Lucario is the only one where it makes a difference (the others being 5 he can infinite anyways and Link, respectively).

 

[Tesh]

CG-Bair edgeguard is pretty much the same thing for Link anyway. You can also just ban YI:M against DDD for those few matchups, or pick MK/pika/olimar if the other guy goes DDD on this stage.

DDD on pipes isn't nearly as much trouble as MK on RC/Brinstar.

I'm not saying Pipes adds some important depth to the game, but FD doesn't add any depth either.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah but giving him another broken CP is just making the MU even harder for Lucario, it's already Delfino vs Cruise in terms of what to ban, adding this is gonna make it messy. /personalnotlegitargumenthatedoesn'twantDDDtohavethisasaCPoption

Their are other legit issues issues, but I gotta look back at what was said about it.

Didn't CO18 say DDD could CG more than the seven up slopes?

 

[Tesh]

More broken than MK on Brinstar? Where else is he going to take you anyway when you ban this stage? Delfino is to easy to avoid him on the massive campfest walkoff areas. Castle Seige is the same deal. Besides DDD destroys Lucario everywhere anyway.

Even if DDD can CG all CGables on the slope its no reason to ban the stage. He still gets wrecked by pika, olimar, mk etc. on this stage. MK absolutely destroys DDD here just like anywhere else.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

More broken than MK on Brinstar? Where else is he going to take you anyway when you ban this stage? Delfino is to easy to avoid him on the massive campfest walkoff areas. Castle Seige is the same deal.

I would say so. And yeah Delfino is a camp fest to not get grabbed, it still sucks because 1 mistake at points = death.

Besides DDD destroys Lucario everywhere anyway.

Not a viable argument, and also wrong, bad Mu =/= destroys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyZX7P_kTIY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9XCGVRwNwc

It's very winnable.

Even if DDD can CG all CGables on the slope its no reason to ban the stage. He still gets wrecked by pika, olimar, mk etc. on this stage. MK absolutely destroys DDD here just like anywhere else.

Then your giving him a stage that is almost equivalent to Bridge of Eldin.

 

[Tesh]

Bridge of eldin has 2 straight walkoffs and no platforms.

I'd say its still not as bad as MK on Brinstar/RC.

Just camp the left side and fsmash through the pipe.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

While this one has flipable platforms and one side that is dangerous close to the edge.

 

[Tesh]

How is that worse than Brinstar?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

How is that worse than Brinstar?

Lucario can do something, kill MK reasonably, Dair if he tries sharking too close or UpB's though the stage.

He has some options and can afford a mistake, a mistake on YI:M takes Lucario to walk off on one side and has him die really early to a Fthrow off the other. The platforms here are not static, they are breakable in a sense. It's still gonna be a game of cat and mouse like the matrch-up is, only difference is when the cat gets him the punishment is a lot worse.

 

[Tesh]

Horrible matchup on worst stage for said matchup. For everyone who doesn't have your characters frame 4 massive hitbox dair, MK sharking is completely unreasonable to deal with.

A 65:35 matchup like luc-DDD on DDDs best stage for the matchup (maybe) isnt going to be the same as MK v Lucario on Brinstar.

The other 30 characters that don't get walkoff cged will do fine
or get ***** same as any other stage vs DDD.

 

[sunshade]

I am going to be redoing the original post to make it look cleaner and easier to read. I am [/SIZE][/SIZE]stealing borrowing meno's images from his thread and his general style of formating. Its not finished but here is what I have done so far. Tell me what you think. (I wrote this between 12:30am and 1:30 am so there are probably major spelling and grammatical errors. If you find any please tell me about them or correct it for me )

Edit: forgot to include that yellow = arguable/up to opinion, green = Nearly universal consensus/not up to opinion

[Collapse=new original post]

Why is [Insert stage] banned?

Intentions of this thread, and how you can help

Many brawlers new and old often have misunderstandings regarding why stages are legal or banned. The intention of this thread is to help newcomers and veterans alike better understand why we do what we do.

Everyone is bias and I am without exceptions. I am going to try and come at this thread from a neutral point of view, representing both conservative and liberal thoughts on stage legality. If anyone feels that I am presenting something in an incorrect light please correct me and provide me with a suggestion for how to improve the thread.

Now lets start with the most basic but often looked over question.

Why do we ban stages to begin with?

Stages are often banned for many reasons some well thought out some not quite. The following are the most common reasons stages are banned and an explanation of what they are.

Excessively skewed match-ups
On every stage characters play differently. Sometimes the difference is small and sometimes the difference is large. On the majority of stages these differences are small and we can estimate that character A will win X percentage of the time when fighting character B. When a stage's match-ups are across to board very different from the rest of the stages in the game and cause a large portion of them to become incredibly one sided we make moves to ban the stage.

This will be a reason cited on many, many, many, stages because for the most part it is subjective where the stages influence on match-ups becomes too large. Many people are of the mentality that unless the majority of match-ups are swayed to the point in which it is unreasonable for a player to over come the advantage (ie it is "broken") then the stage should be banned. Others feel that if the advantage is large but not necessarily "broken" then it is justifiable to ban the stage. Typically the standard of competitive gaming communities is "dont ban it unless its broken".

Circle stall
Circle stall is a characteristic of a stage which causes excessively skewed match-ups but is so common that it can be placed into its own subsection.

In a nut shell circle stall is like playing tag with your friend. The catch being that you have a circular table located in the middle of you two. The player that is "it" needs to catch the player who is running away. The player who is running away however is impossible to catch in this scenario because he/she is able to use the table to prevent the friend from reaching him/her. The friend who is "it" can run to the one side and the friend who is not "it will simply run to the other. By doing this they will constantly be on opposite ends of the table and the player that is "it" will never catch the other.

Now the issue with this in brawl is that if you have the lead and you choose to be the friend who is not "it" and you simply run around the stage you can gain a nearly 100% chance of victory due to the timer running out. Players cannot climb over the table and if the character they are using is slower you can simply maneuver around the stage for an easy victory.

Circle stall makes the vast majority of match-ups 100-0 for the faster character as they can catch the player running away and cannot be caught if they run away.

Light Circle stall
Light circle is a deviation of Circle stall and like circle stall is a sub section of excessively skewed match-ups.

Light circle stall (also called semi circle stall) is when a player uses the geography of the stage to avoid the opponent (much like circle stall) however the geography of the stage does not guarantee that player is 100% guaranteed a victory (unlike regular circle stall).

Light circle often makes it so that if a character is significantly more mobile than the opponent and is able to get a stock advantage or a large percentage advantage then the match-up becomes very difficult to win for the opposing player.

This depending on who you ask and in regards to which stage may or may not be enough to ban a stage.

Overly intrusive hazards
Excessive randomness
walk-off camping

Now onto the actual stages themselves

If you see something written in YELLOW then it means the banning criteria given is up to debate or opinion.
If you see something written in GREEN then it means the banning criteria given is not reasonably debatable or up to opinion.

Smashville

No reason to ban

Yoshi's Island

No reason to ban

Pokémon Stadium 1

No reason to ban

Pokémon Stadium 2

No reason to ban

Battlefield

No reason to ban

Castle Siege

No reason to ban

Delfino Plaza

No reason to ban

Final Destination

No reason to ban

Frigate Orpheon

No reason to ban

Halberd

No reason to ban

Lylat Cruise

No reason to ban

Jungle Japes

Excessively skewed match-ups

Brinstar

Excessively skewed match-ups

Distant Planet

Excessively skewed match-ups

Luigi's Mansion

Light Circle stall
Excessively skewed match-ups

Rainbow Cruise

Excessively skewed match-ups

Yoshi's Island (Pipes)

Excessively skewed match-ups

Norfair

Excessively intrusive hazards
Excessively skewed match-ups

Pictochat

Excessive randomness

Green Greens

Excessively intrusive hazards
Excessive randomness

Wario Ware

Excessive randomness

Port Town Aero Dive

Excessively intrusive hazards
Excessively skewed match-ups

Onett

Walk-off camping

Pirate Ship

Rudder camping
Water camping

Big Blue

Light Circle stall
Excessively skewed match-ups

Bridge of Eldin

Excessively skewed match-ups
walk-off camping

Corneria

Excessively skewed match-ups
camping on the right side of the stage (often called fin camping)

Flat Zone 2

excessive randomness
walk-off camping

Green Hill Zone

Excessively skewed match-ups
walk-off camping

Mario Bros.

Excessively skewed match-ups
Circle stall
walk-off camping

Mario Circuit

Excessively skewed match-ups
walk-off camping

Mushroomy Kingdom I

Excessively skewed match-ups
walk-off camping

Mushroomy Kingdom II

Excessively skewed match-ups
walk-off camping

Rumble Falls

Light Circle stall
Excessively skewed match-ups

Shadow Moses

Excessively skewed match-ups

Skyworld

Excessively skewed match-ups

New Pork City

Circle stall

Spear Pillar

Circle stall

The Summit

Circle stall

75m

Circle stall

Hanenbow

Circle stall

Hyrule Temple

Circle stall
[/Collapse]

 

[ぱみゅ]

"Excessively skewed match-ups" is not a good criteria, imo.
Every stage, their platforms and terrain layout all affect MUs to a extent, unless FD/SV are the norm, which is just a silly point of view....

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I find it hilarious what is debatable (Warioware's randomness) and what isn't (fin camping, hanenbow's circle).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'd money match I could circle camp on Hanenbow.