Why is Smash not taken as seriously?

[ZMan]

Sounds almost like what they're doing with Lucario in Project M.

this is another reason why smash isn't taken seriously by trad fighting game players. attempting to make hacks like (project m) into the competitive standard for brawl as opposed to what the creators of brawl released.

to answer the ops question, the reason why brawl isn't taken seriously by communities like srk is the smash community itself, not the game.

 

[lordvaati]

this post summarizes why srk heads don't like the smash community.

I agree with point I. I mean, we finally have a WIP competitive item ruleset in Brawl, yet people are afraid to use it most of the time thanks to those b loody stigmas we have against them. I mean in pokemon B/W they questioned the Wonder Launcher for a while, but finally accepted it could be a side metagame. why cn't we do that?

 

[Big-Cat]

Counterstrike?

 

[lordvaati]

that's the thing, though. With counter-Strike, Valve loved it and actually packed it up with Half life. but with P:M, Nintendo treats it about the same as Mario Blue twilght/Ocarina 2D/Pokemon Shiny Gold/Type wild etc. as a fan project, nothing more.

 

[Pkm_trainer09]

did anyone read the smash thread on the front of SRK a few weeks back?
plenty of flaming on both sides.

long story short: people want to feel superior to others. it makes them feel special and unique. Thats why people disrespect other's games without playing them.

you can't argue about what game takes more skill.

skill should only be measured by the time invested in something.

For example, melee takes more techskill than brawl, but serious brawl players spend the time they would use practicing l-cancels, wavedash, etc., and put it into perfecting spacing.

you can't say one takes more skill than the other.

Same goes for smash and street fighter.

Thank you. This is exactly how i feel. They are all different, and require investing more time in certain aspects.

 

[Impmacaque]

this is another reason why smash isn't taken seriously by trad fighting game players. attempting to make hacks like (project m) into the competitive standard for brawl as opposed to what the creators of brawl released.

to answer the ops question, the reason why brawl isn't taken seriously by communities like srk is the smash community itself, not the game.

Agreed. A mod should never be the competitive standard, period. Either play the game as the creators released it, or compete in a different game.

 

[Qarano]

So.... should capcom or somebody produce a game with mechanics similar to smash bros (focus on ring outs, damage makes you fly farther, free movement etc) and intentionally make it a competitive game?

Nintendo is all about the party now it seems. I want to see the concept of smash preserved in a nice and complex game. Maybe people would take that seriously?

 

[lordvaati]

So.... should capcom or somebody produce a game with mechanics similar to smash bros (focus on ring outs, damage makes you fly farther, free movement etc) and intentionally make it a competitive game?

Nintendo is all about the party now it seems. I want to see the concept of smash preserved in a nice and complex game. Maybe people would take that seriously?

Power Stone has similar elements as Smash as well, but they don't consider that a fighter in most circles either.

 

[PF9]

I personally would like to see even more violence in the next Smash, even blood.

That would give Smash some credibility.

 

[majora_787]

I personally would like to see even more violence in the next Smash, even blood.

That would give Smash some credibility.

... It needs to be bloody to be credible?

It could be nothing more than a 13 hour cutscene of nintendo characters being brutally murdered, and that's automatically credible? Because it has blood?

 

[lordvaati]

I personally would like to see even more violence in the next Smash, even blood.

That would give Smash some credibility.

here you go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef7kyNVU--c

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

... It needs to be bloody to be credible?

It could be nothing more than a 13 hour cutscene of nintendo characters being brutally murdered, and that's automatically credible? Because it has blood?

To Street Fighter players, yes.

 

[majora_787]

To Street Fighter players, yes.

I'd think that'd be more relevant to Mortal Kombat's community, considering blood and gore is generally Mortal Kombat's gimmick of choice...

 

[Steam]

I'd think that'd be more relevant to Mortal Kombat's community, considering blood and gore is generally Mortal Kombat's gimmick of choice...

Fatalities permanantly scarred me as child and gave me nightmares.

 

[Crispy4001]

Agreed. A mod should never be the competitive standard, period. Either play the game as the creators released it, or compete in a different game.

It was already brought up, but ... Counter-Strike. Console gamers are just new to this sort of thing. As is the fighting game community.

But even besides that, Smash is its own beast. Not only in how different it is from other fighters, but in how different each iteration can be. There's no Super/Ultra/Turbro/etc editions that address balance flaws. No patches. No DLC. And seldom ever a nod to the compeditive community.

It's no suprise that modders took take the reins. And it's a good thing, since Project M is likely to be more competitively focused and better balanced than SSB4.

 

[Big-Cat]

... It needs to be bloody to be credible?

It could be nothing more than a 13 hour cutscene of nintendo characters being brutally murdered, and that's automatically credible? Because it has blood?

Actually, that would make the whole community look even more childish. Excessive use of the word gay in the negative sense and excessive blood? Sounds like an insecure 14 year old to me.

It was already brought up, but ... Counter-Strike. Console gamers are just new to this sort of thing. As is the fighting game community.

And even when you bring up Counter Strike as a legitimate example, it still gets ignored.

 

[lordvaati]

Project M is dope, I just hope no one feels the urge to also mod SSB4 as well.

otherwise, we will become the ****ing laughingstock of ALL gaming communities because we can't accept change.(not that I'm saying that's why PM was made, but that's what the majority outside the community think.)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

this post summarizes why srk heads don't like the smash community.

That thread gave me a headache.

 

[Master Peach]

That thread gave me a headache.

I kno the feeling :/

 

[majora_787]

... Was that post SUPPOSED to sound as... unbelievably offensive and hypocritical as it did? r_r

Please tell me it wasn't... That post actually burnt my eyes almost as much as the posts of the people who unwaveringly agreed with every word of it...

I mean, yes our community gets bad, just like every other community, but to be like THAT about it? Really?

 

[VietGeek]

G) The FG community in general looks down on anyone who says "play my game because it's better than yours" and then refuses to play anything else, in case you can't tell.

I am going with the assumption that the fighting game community excludes the Street Fighter 4 community for the sake of this statement's validity.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I appreciate the irony that they say:
"Smash community should stop telling others how to play Smash, oh and they should also legalize items".

 

[ZMan]

That thread gave me a headache.

and topics like this, this, and this don't?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

... Was that post SUPPOSED to sound as... unbelievably offensive and hypocritical as it did? r_r

Please tell me it wasn't... That post actually burnt my eyes almost as much as the posts of the people who unwaveringly agreed with every word of it...

I mean, yes our community gets bad, just like every other community, but to be like THAT about it? Really?

Not the post, the post linked was fine, even if I disagree with points.

The rest of the thread is the problem. I have a hard time believing that our community is that bad after reading reading a lot of the posts in that thread.

 

[majora_787]

and topics like this, this, and this don't?

They all do, but we can't have one community act superior to the others when they're just as bad.

r_r If only we could make a rule of this nature:

NO topics comparing fighting games are to be made, or you will be permabanned.

If we can do it with something trivial like Ridley discussions, we can do it with something extratrivial like this.

EDIT: Obviously we could have topic designated for people who REALLY want to get into this conversation... Somewhere far away in a sealed container in a dark corner, where it belongs.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

and topics like this, this, and this don't?

Not as much.

I don't see what is wrong with the second one outside of some later comments maybe.

 

[ZMan]

Not as much.

I don't see what is wrong with the second one outside of some later comments maybe.

the mvc3 thread bothers me because it seems like the smashers are trying to belittle the mvc3 players by bringing up the fact that they play/played smash, when no one who plays mvc3 gives a **** if they were a smash player or whatever. i'd like to think i'm decent at mk9 and ssf4 and none of the sf players here give a **** that i was a smasher, and it's not like i bring it up every time i play in a tournament as well.


majora_787- this is a topic i've seen many a times over on srk, and every time it's brought up the topic creator + the smash community gets put on blast in said topic. i think its a good topic to bring up to understand both communities, but general stupidity will prevent a mutual agreement between the two from ever happening.

 

[SmashChu]

Not necessarily. Guilty Gear is regarded as being one of the most technical and deepest fighters out there, assuming it's not holding that distinctive title already.

There is no inherent correlation between the prominence of tech skill and strategy. One does not nullify the other. What happens is that the players, not the game itself, will emphasize one area over another. Street Fighter has plenty of tech skill thanks to links and the motions that you've mentioned, but I'll go further later in this post. And people will tell you that Smash has plenty of strategy.

With the case of L-Canceling and Wavedashing, people were not solely upset that tech skill was taken away. Rather, they were upset that options were just flat out removed that allows players to have a refined strategy. L-Canceling dramatically increases the pace, but that could've been just done by making it automatic, but I'll stop on that since I don't want to open that can of worms here. Wavedashing provides mobility options for getting in, out, and feinting.

The reason I say that is because they are based on speed. Faster games need more tech skill than strategy as the goal is execution. Slower games use more strategy as the need for execusion goes down and more strategy is how you make those games more interesting.

Probably wrong for me to claim they perfectly correlate, but I think you get the idea.

On the last paragraph, the lose of Wavedashing and L-canceling shouldn't hurt Brawl if it had a lot of strategy already. But it gone seems to upset people. It leads me to believe that the tech skill is more important.

@smashchu- It would be pretty hard to argue that street fighter is a harder game than melee. melee's definitely more technical throughout

Yet you've never said how. You said it would be hard to disagree but you never wrote an argument why. Makes me believer that it is BS rather than possibility.

I am going with the assumption that the fighting game community excludes the Street Fighter 4 community for the sake of this statement's validity.

The thread said that there are SF4 players who play nothing else, but these are the newer players. People who played before play most fighting game. They were the old SF2 players.

Not the post, the post linked was fine, even if I disagree with points.

The rest of the thread is the problem. I have a hard time believing that our community is that bad after reading reading a lot of the posts in that thread.

Remember that they have this thread all the time. And guess which side makes the thread.

I'm an outside looking in and yes, the community is awful. This is why I am more serious about Starcraft despite liking Smash more. The community ruins it and that post sums it up nicely.

The problem is Smash players are big babies who whine about everything. Nothing is right with Brawkl. Before, it was you should play Brawl MY way (and they did that. They would leave Smashboards and tell everyone else why they should quit Roy and play Fox. This is why GameFAQ tier war started). Not to mention the Backroom needs to die. All it has done is create a bunch of people who look at them like some Mayan god. You also don't know what they talk about. For all you know, they are playing everyone like a fiddle and keep Smash the way they want it. I suspect the reason items are still banned is because no one wants to try and learn them. The original reason was exploding boxes, but that is changed in Brawl. Yet they never changed the rule.

Not sure how you could disagree with that thread. The writing is on the wall. I mean, 4chan's /v/ raided this place three times for a reason.

 

[Steam]

Yet you've never said how. You said it would be hard to disagree but you never wrote an argument why. Makes me believer that it is BS rather than possibility.

I've written up a long post in this thread that compared many aspects of brawl and SF and showed how they were similar in many ways. Melee's increased technicality also gives players more options/more things to consider than brawl.

Items are mainly banned because they spawn randomly... and in brawl a vast majority of items are powerful to just a rediculous point. It's not like no one knows how to use items either. any brawl player who's playing a good peach/diddy/RoB/snake will need good item control to stand a good chance at winning. \ and also the backroom isn't some arbitrary organization... they don't even have control of rulesets anymore (at least with brawl). Also I've always preferred the smash community because of how friendly they generally are... I feel like certain other communities are only in it for themselves and never help anyone. Also anyone who criticizes people for items/using bad characters are generally looked down on by most smashers I know. Items are still hella fun and most people (including myself) have higher respect for people who can be successful with bad characters.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Not to mention the Backroom needs to die. All it has done is create a bunch of people who look at them like some Mayan god..

On the contrary, people complain about how they don't do anything.

 

[majora_787]

majora_787- this is a topic i've seen many a times over on srk, and every time it's brought up the topic creator + the smash community gets put on blast in said topic. i think its a good topic to bring up to understand both communities, but general stupidity will prevent a mutual agreement between the two from ever happening.

So, all we have to do is get rid of the stupid people, right? All we need to do is kick all of the stupid people out of--

... Oh. Right. This is the internet. Nevermind.

 

[Abel1994]

I agree, the only explanation that I can think of is simply because the "fighting" community takes it as a joke, like character designs, different mechanics, and not to mention traditional enough.

I myself am involved to a competative level in the fighting community, I don't think that smash is bad, but others just don't consider it "hardcore" enough and then see a character such as Yoshi which draws them away and therefore don't take it seriously.

Yachiro!!!!!!!!!


@TS


haters gonna hate.

 

[kataklysm336]

On the last paragraph, the lose of Wavedashing and L-canceling shouldn't hurt Brawl if it had a lot of strategy already. But it gone seems to upset people. It leads me to believe that the tech skill is more important.

Wow, this statement is blatantly wrong at best, and shows your ignorance of the game. Losing wave-dashing and l-canceling fundamentally changed the way smash was played, as two of the most important concepts were removed. Wave-dashing added a whole different dimension of movement to smash, and created new spacing, zoning, and mind-gaming opportunities. L-canceling provided a section of tech-skill that is highly missed in brawl, and allowed for moves to flow much easier just like canceling and links in street fighter.

Furthermore, those two things are not the only changes from brawl to melee, and the fact that you do not realize it shows you do not understand either game on a competitive level.

EDIT: To clarify, you are assuming that Brawl isn't strategically deep. It is less strategically deep than melee, because two primary offensive and defensive options were eliminated, but other AT's have been discovered that lessen this blow quite a bit.

Remember that they have this thread all the time. And guess which side makes the thread.

Oh, so you honestly think that a member of the Street Fighter community, who all hate Smash is going to stand up for it? It's very black and white, and there is a "if you aren't with us you're against us mentality" and if you stand up for smash, you are ostracized from the community.

I'm an outside looking in and yes, the community is awful. This is why I am more serious about Starcraft despite liking Smash more. The community ruins it and that post sums it up nicely.

The problem is Smash players are big babies who whine about everything. Nothing is right with Brawkl. Before, it was you should play Brawl MY way (and they did that. They would leave Smashboards and tell everyone else why they should quit Roy and play Fox. This is why GameFAQ tier war started). Not to mention the Backroom needs to die. All it has done is create a bunch of people who look at them like some Mayan god. You also don't know what they talk about. For all you know, they are playing everyone like a fiddle and keep Smash the way they want it. I suspect the reason items are still banned is because no one wants to try and learn them. The original reason was exploding boxes, but that is changed in Brawl. Yet they never changed the rule.

Not sure how you could disagree with that thread. The writing is on the wall. I mean, 4chan's /v/ raided this place three times for a reason.

Honestly, you just sound like a huge n00b who was instantly turned off to the idea of competitive Smash because you were probably ***** by someone who actually had skill. No one in this community suggests that you should play any character over another; however, there are tier lists. But tier lists exist in every other fighting game as well. Some characters are just better than others, whether you want to accept that fact or not.

People don't look up to the back room because they are an elite group, they look up with them because they are the leading members of the community. People who go to tournaments across the country, and across the world and win because they are the best. People who study every aspect of smash, and know moves, hitboxes, and other data with precision.

You are just some looney conspiracy theorist who seems to think that the Backroom has any type of power. The power is always with the community, and the community decided it was best not to have items. In the early days it was a different of East vs. West, with one side using items and others banning them. As higher levels of play were reached, the community decided that items were not balanced for competitive play, and they didn't need a Backroom to do it.

You clearly do not play Smash on a competitive level because you do not understand the fundamentals of the game. The whole argument is only started because each side ignorantly accuses the other of being "more shallow". I guarantee you that no hardcore Street Fighter player has taken the time to play smash on a high level like Ally, Atomsk, or ADHD. They don't understand the depth of Smash, and likewise people don't understand the depth of SF.

 

[Shockna]

I suspect the reason items are still banned is because no one wants to try and learn them. The original reason was exploding boxes, but that is changed in Brawl. Yet they never changed the rule.

Not changed, however, is the fact that a lucky item can **** over a skilled player worse than the most poorly timed trip. If two players have a match down to the wire, and a hammer spawns, who wins? The answer is pretty obvious to me.

 

[majora_787]

Not changed, however, is the fact that a lucky item can **** over a skilled player worse than the most poorly timed trip. If two players have a match down to the wire, and a hammer spawns, who wins? The answer is pretty obvious to me.

Then again, we have to consider that if items were allowed into the metagame, 'skill' would then include the ability to avoid said items. It is possible to win a match and not pick up a single item, while your opponent gets two dragoons and several bombs/shells/guns/what have you.

I believe THAT PARTICULAR problem lies in the fact that skilled players don't want the definition of 'skilled' to change. At least partially.

 

[Big-Cat]

The thing is, at least in Brawl, items are either really good, mediocre, or just plain suck. Then you also have the random factor. Sure, items spawn at specified places on a stage, but even then you don't know what the item will be. Let's say we have 3 spawning spots and 30 items. You have a 1/90 chance for a particular item to appear at a particular place and then probability goes even lower when you take into account that items drop at certain intervals.

 

[Life]

Then again, we have to consider that if items were allowed into the metagame, 'skill' would then include the ability to avoid said items. It is possible to win a match and not pick up a single item, while your opponent gets two dragoons and several bombs/shells/guns/what have you..

It's also possible for Ganondorf to beat Ice Climbers on FD. It just requires your opponent to be bad at the game. Only the item scenario is worse because you can avoid picking Ganondorf, but you can't avoid being item screwed. The game has to avoid item screwing you

Spoiler

in Soviet Russia

.

That being said, one-stock food is awesome.

 

[majora_787]

It's also possible for Ganondorf to beat Ice Climbers on FD. It just requires your opponent to be bad at the game. Only the item scenario is worse because you can avoid picking Ganondorf, but you can't avoid being item screwed. The game has to avoid item screwing you

Spoiler

in Soviet Russia

.

That being said, one-stock food is awesome.

There is only ONE truly horrible incident that could "item screw" even the most amazingly skilled players... NOBODY can guess when a bob-omb will fall from the sky and land on them mid-smash attack. Nobody.

So I will give that point. But still, aside from bob-ombs, it could be done. It would just require different practice to reach a slightly different level of skill.

And Ganondorf is obviously going to stay at the bottom of the tier list in this scenario.

 

[SmashChu]

I've written up a long post in this thread that compared many aspects of brawl and SF and showed how they were similar in many ways. Melee's increased technicality also gives players more options/more things to consider than brawl.

Got a link

Also, just because something gives you more options doesn't mean it automatically has more than another game.

Items are mainly banned because they spawn randomly... and in brawl a vast majority of items are powerful to just a rediculous point. It's not like no one knows how to use items either. any brawl player who's playing a good peach/diddy/RoB/snake will need good item control to stand a good chance at winning. \ and also the backroom isn't some arbitrary organization... they don't even have control of rulesets anymore (at least with brawl). Also I've always preferred the smash community because of how friendly they generally are... I feel like certain other communities are only in it for themselves and never help anyone. Also anyone who criticizes people for items/using bad characters are generally looked down on by most smashers I know. Items are still hella fun and most people (including myself) have higher respect for people who can be successful with bad characters.

None of what you said is true.

1)Items were banned because you could not turn off capsules. Capsules would explode and they could spawn infront of an attack. You can now turn them off. Items being random wasn't an issue and Melee was played with items on at first.
2)No, most tournament players do not know how to deal with items. You would not believe how many really good players I've seen online shield a warp star.
3)You have not been around enough. Your bad grammar proves that. You weren't here for Melee where your character sucks and item players are noobs. See the next post.

I've written up a long post in this thread that compared many aspects of brawl and SF and showed how they were similar in many ways. Melee's increased technicality also gives players more options/more things to consider than brawl.

Got a link

Also, just because something gives you more options doesn't mean it automatically has more than another game.

Items are mainly banned because they spawn randomly... and in brawl a vast majority of items are powerful to just a rediculous point. It's not like no one knows how to use items either. any brawl player who's playing a good peach/diddy/RoB/snake will need good item control to stand a good chance at winning. \ and also the backroom isn't some arbitrary organization... they don't even have control of rulesets anymore (at least with brawl). Also I've always preferred the smash community because of how friendly they generally are... I feel like certain other communities are only in it for themselves and never help anyone. Also anyone who criticizes people for items/using bad characters are generally looked down on by most smashers I know. Items are still hella fun and most people (including myself) have higher respect for people who can be successful with bad characters.

None of what you said is true.

1)Items were banned because you could not turn off capsules. Capsules would explode and they could spawn infront of an attack. You can now turn them off. Items being random wasn't an issue and Melee was played with items on at first.
2)No, most tournament players do not know how to deal with items. You would not believe how many really good players I've seen online shield a warp star.
3)You have not been around enough. Your bad grammar proves that. You weren't here for Melee where your character sucks and item players are noobs. See the next post.

Wow, this statement is blatantly wrong at best, and shows your ignorance of the game. Losing wave-dashing and l-canceling fundamentally changed the way smash was played, as two of the most important concepts were removed. Wave-dashing added a whole different dimension of movement to smash, and created new spacing, zoning, and mind-gaming opportunities. L-canceling provided a section of tech-skill that is highly missed in brawl, and allowed for moves to flow much easier just like canceling and links in street fighter.

Furthermore, those two things are not the only changes from brawl to melee, and the fact that you do not realize it shows you do not understand either game on a competitive level.

EDIT: To clarify, you are assuming that Brawl isn't strategically deep. It is less strategically deep than melee, because two primary offensive and defensive options were eliminated, but other AT's have been discovered that lessen this blow quite a bit.

Where did I say it wasn't deep. Please, tell me, because I don't see it. My point was that Smash is more tech skills than raw strategy (said more, not less).

Oh, so you honestly think that a member of the Street Fighter community, who all hate Smash is going to stand up for it? It's very black and white, and there is a "if you aren't with us you're against us mentality" and if you stand up for smash, you are ostracized from the community.

I'm not a memeber of either. In fact, I play Starcraft (why I'm talking about strategy). Not sure why you are ostracizing me with 51 post.

Honestly, you just sound like a huge n00b who was instantly turned off to the idea of competitive Smash because you were probably ***** by someone who actually had skill. No one in this community suggests that you should play any character over another; however, there are tier lists. But tier lists exist in every other fighting game as well. Some characters are just better than others, whether you want to accept that fact or not.

People don't look up to the back room because they are an elite group, they look up with them because they are the leading members of the community. People who go to tournaments across the country, and across the world and win because they are the best. People who study every aspect of smash, and know moves, hitboxes, and other data with precision.

You are just some looney conspiracy theorist who seems to think that the Backroom has any type of power. The power is always with the community, and the community decided it was best not to have items. In the early days it was a different of East vs. West, with one side using items and others banning them. As higher levels of play were reached, the community decided that items were not balanced for competitive play, and they didn't need a Backroom to do it.

You clearly do not play Smash on a competitive level because you do not understand the fundamentals of the game. The whole argument is only started because each side ignorantly accuses the other of being "more shallow". I guarantee you that no hardcore Street Fighter player has taken the time to play smash on a high level like Ally, Atomsk, or ADHD. They don't understand the depth of Smash, and likewise people don't understand the depth of SF.

I never played it because of people like you. You drag the community down. This is why people hate you and 4Chan raids your site. They will do it again with SSB4.

Also, I say the backroom controls the community because too often I've heard many people (even in real life) put faith into it. Also, the Backroom is made up of the top players and tournament organizers, people in it for money. Do you think they look out for you. No. This is just life kid. Everyone looks out for themselves. When the community demanded Meta-Knight be banned, the Backroom said no. Why? Because they play Meta-Knight. They also wont make rulesets for items because they have too much to lose from it. What's that? You think they'll still win with items. LOL NOPE. In fact, all the research on items has been done by SRK, not Smashboards.

The other reason I don't play competitive Smash is because I play Super Smash Brothers, not Street Fighter Light. As the SRK thread mentioned, Smash is Smash. Items are a huge part of Smash and really help make the game, but tournament players refuse to use them. And on basic stages with 2 players, it makes matches very boring. Street Fighter is more interesting anyway. Why don't Smash Players play that? There is a lot less of a stigma or those players.

Lastly, the community started as something good and then because a private treehouse club. This is why it doesn't really grow. It's sad when Brawl has sold 10 million to SF4's 4 but Street Fighter has bigger tournaments, a bigger site and comparable prize pools (MLG to EVO at least).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Excuse me, but I don't remember items having ever been banned in either game.

I mean, we choose to play with them turned off, just like how we chose to play standard Versus instead of Giant Versus or Subspace Emissary... I can't recall the Smash community having ever actually banned items though.