Why is Smash not taken as seriously?

[knuckles213]

My god, after reading all this, people love to rip on smash bros especially brawl and even by its own community too. I cant wait to see what people will say the SSB4, probably rip a new ******* in that too. I'm not sure we should even deserve another smash bros unless it was to fix the mistakes that brawl had so it can make it more respectible as competitive fighting game.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFZrzg62Zj0

You guys are taking this reflection of racism from SF players to heart.

That's a bad thing.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

I've always assumed it to be that's it's more "kiddy" than a traditional fighter. The character roster is made of what are essentially children game characters, like Mario, Yoshi, Kirby, Link, Pikachu, etc. Not to mention that it's "king of the hill" style is too different from the usual "deplete life gauge" style. As such, the "hardcore" fighting community doesn't care.

That's my 2 cents.

 

[moomoomamoo]

To those questioning why anyone would care if Brawl is taken seriously as a fighter
One reason is that without a good marketing view point of this game, the number of competitive fighters are limited compared to any other fighter. And from this, tournament sizes for Brawl are smaller than SF or MvC (I know there's a few more fighters out there, but every tournament that held Brawl, also held these two with it and they out-shined us in numbers).

Why is tournament size important?
It brings a lack of prizes and lack of potential competition. This hinders most of us from getting better from playing strong players a lot, and kills off motivation to try so hard when the prizes aren't there.

"Items, random stuff, stages, blah"
Items have never been accepted as a standard for Brawl, or any of the Smash games going as far back as 64. "But it's the default in rules :O" Yeah well so was time in every one of the smash games, but even in 64, just about EVERYONE changed it to stock whether it was for casual or competitive play. Tournaments don't run stupid rules that allows gimmick stages or items. Sure there are still gimmick-ed stuff happening in some stages in today's rule-set, but it's been explained that there's more than enough ways to control what happens in a stage.

As for people saying it's because "Brawl, like the other smash games, it's too kiddy"
Any competitive fighter that has a character's appearance be the sole measurement of strength for that character is stupid. No actual players who go to tournaments and actually place will judge a game for its character choice when everyone should know it's all about the gameplay itself.

The problem:
When watching an average local tournament player in Brawl vs. an average local tournament player in SF or MvC3, Brawl's visual for those who don't know how to play don't display how much better the players are for any scrub who just picks up the game.

What I mean is, for someone who doesn't know much about fighters, when he watches local level players for MvC3 and SF, it is obvious just by the way the gameplay plays out that there is a big gap between him and those players. For Brawl, for any tournament that isn't a major one, the gameplay looks the same as if two scrubs who know just enough to do stuff vs. actually good players at a local tournament level.

The average Brawl player ruins it for the community..
I don't mean to sound like a hater, but the average Brawl player represents all of us. And it makes us look BAD. When you look into the games for SF and MvC3, the offline gameplay expects you to learn curtain types of techniques that actually reflect on competitive play, while Brawl's offline does not. For anyone wanting to look up anything worth while in Brawl, they have to find it off of websites on these.

Brawl on its own doesn't reveal its potential as a fighter so it isn't well known for it. Other fighters do it good enough to bait people into looking for more stuff online. Our average player is a scrub vs. any other fighter. The best we can do is expand as much as possible as a community and get a LOT more tournaments going to show what Brawl is made of.

 

[Nevyn]

I'm interested in seeing the thread/s in which the other gaming communities have dismissed the majority of the presumed elitist view points that are rampant in this thread. Instead targeting the oft overlooked perceived maturity, or lack thereof, of the smash community.

 

[Impmacaque]

Smashchu and Ghostbone nailed it.

People hate the smash community. And it's threads like this which promote and justify that hatred.

Stop trying to prove a point to the fighting game community. If you enjoy smash, play it. Don't try to force comparisons between smash and other fighting games, because honestly nobody in the fighting game scene gives a damn.

 

[majora_787]

Smashchu and Ghostbone nailed it.

People hate the smash community. And it's threads like this which promote and justify that hatred.

Stop trying to prove a point to the fighting game community. If you enjoy smash, play it. Don't try to force comparisons between smash and other fighting games, because honestly nobody in the fighting game scene gives a damn.

I think the initial point of the thread, to try to understand WHY everyone seems to hate this community and/or smash in general, was fine. But what it turned into... Ehh... Yeah.

We're just going to have to live with them hating us, I guess, and just hope that one day, all of our communities will stop being like that. Because frankly, it's stupid. It's not a rivalry, it's just nitpicking and distaste toward another community.

 

[Mr.C]

Smash is taken seriously, and by Smash I mean Melee.

SSB64 is regarded as a skillful game to play.

SSBM is considered one of the greatest fighting games of all time.

SSBB is considered a joke.

When two of your predecessors were incredibly hard games to play that took top of the line technical skill and fighting game intelligence, then you come out with something like Brawl (intentionally removing depth from the game), you shouldn't be taken seriously. It also has to do with the extremely large increase in player base (mostly terribads) due to Brawl being more accessible to newer players since the skill cap isn't very high. It's kind of like how HoN/DotA players make fun of LoL players.

I feel really sad for all of the newcomers that never had the chance to grow up with the Smash Community when Melee was out... brings a tear to my eye /sniffle.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

SSB64 is the most balanced game in the series, lol.

 

[Jaguarandine]

It's a little late, but let me put my 2 cents into this debate..

First, some background on myself. I'm 29, and have been playing fighting games since I was 10, with SF2 in the arcade (my dad would make sure the older players gave me my turn). I started out competitively with Tekken Tag. In Tag's heyday, some of the players in my area (the SF Bay area) decided that it would be cool to run Melee tournaments. Wanting to focus on Tekken, I didn't join them, but it was easy to appreciate what they were doing. For years I watched Melee grow into an interesting and fun competitive game. Then one day, I decided it would be great if I could run and host some Melee tournaments myself. Many players at the time still played in the arcade, so I decided why not bring some consoles into the arcade? It ended up working pretty well. Since then, while I'm still a competitive Tekken player at heart, I've played other games in tournament like CvS2 and ST. I've run over 100 tournaments in various fighting games and so have a lot of experience. Currently, I run Brawl weeklies at the public library where I work.

Now that you know a little about me, I'll get to what I think.

The main difference between the two groups is one of age. The traditional fighting game community is older, generally about 10-15 years older. With the success of SF4 and MVC3, the ratio of older to younger has been skewed significantly, but it is still the older players who run and organize most tournaments. Many of these players now even work for the companies who make the games. Capcom and Namco, for example, have hired many from the community and actively listen to their suggestions. Lead designers like Harada (Tekken) and Ono (SF4) attend the big tournaments in the US on a regular basis to see how their game is being played. Obviously, all this is very different from the way things are in the Smash community. This is why IMO, many SF players call the smash community "immature" or refer to Brawl and Melee as "kiddie games" (to be clear, I don't share in that assertion).

Age in many cases leads to contrasting ideologies. It's this ideological difference that causes IMO the two following other problems.

1) The Smash Back Room. The traditional fighting game community is run by an older, core group of players that's been around the scene for a long time. The Smash Back Room is run by an older, core group of players that's been around the scene for a long time; basically the same thing. BUT (and this is a big but), SBR makes it apparent to everyone that they're an exclusive, secretive group that runs things. And this is what rubs traditional fighting game players the wrong way. The way things are run is very similar to the SF scene, but the very nature of SBR reeks of arrogance and a bourgeoisie mentality. Why not just take conversations to PMs, IMs, email, etc.?

2) Items Off/On. The eternal debate. Melee's reason for turning off items was the random exploding containers. Brawls reason is..? Look at it this way, in traditional fighting game tournaments, nothing is banned until a reason is shown that it is broken. Items were banned from Melee for a legitimate reason. In Brawl there was no reason other than preference and people being used to no items in Melee. There's no proof for items "off" in Brawl, just bias and conjecture.

To be honest, I don't expect anything to change at this point. Both groups are quite set in their ways and are very comfortable. When Smash Bros 4 comes out though, things will be different. At Evo this year, MvC3 had over 1500 entrants. I could see even higher turnout for Smash Bros 4 if everyone can overcome their differences. I for one, would love to see Sakurai attend a major like Evo or Genesis. And with the support of other fighting game developers why wouldn't he? Think about it.

 

[Steam]

items are banned in brawl because they spawn randomly. It would be like suddenly and randomly getting meter in street fighter just because you were in a certain part of the stage. the items themselves are also incredibly powerful compared to character's abilities. so just a beam sword appearing in the right spot can suddenly and randomly turn the tide of the match.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

but isn't that what adds variety and hype to a match. And items don't spawn randomly they have set intervals in which they appear based on the frequency they are set at. If we took the time to study how item spawning works maybe we could figure out more about them. And if a top player was really that good they would be able to completely overwhelm and shut down some newcomer if they were using items. If anything tripping is more random then items spawning.

And there are plenty of solutions in using items and plenty of ways to find a balance in using them if only the smash community was willing to try and do extensive testing of such ways to play.

 

[Jaguarandine]

items are banned in brawl because they spawn randomly. It would be like suddenly and randomly getting meter in street fighter just because you were in a certain part of the stage. the items themselves are also incredibly powerful compared to character's abilities. so just a beam sword appearing in the right spot can suddenly and randomly turn the tide of the match.

Are you sure? I know this is why you probably don't pick items. Hwowever, would it be so out of the question to ban items in Brawl because that's the easiest thing to do?

 

[UltiMario]

Why does everyone forget that Capsules and explosive Capsules still spawn regardless of item flipping. Its like even worse, because without boxes, Capsules will spawn EVEN MORE, so basically they're boxes that don't hinder your mobility, if anything, they add to it.

If exploding boxes were an issue in Melee, exploding capsules are even worse of a problem in Brawl.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You can turn containers off in Brawl, you are thinking of Melee.

 

[Steam]

Are you sure? I know this is why you probably don't pick items. Hwowever, would it be so out of the question to ban items in Brawl because that's the easiest thing to do?

you can set the frequency but it's still pretty random. and not many people would want to play a game that randomly rewards people for being in the right place at the right time... and not to mention an incentive to camp even harder than we already do to wait for an item to appear... Using items is a skill that's already VERY important in brawl. if you don't you'll lose to pretty much every diddy and snake you face... but it crosses the line when it's not part of character design but just random...

@KC24- sure it adds variety, sure it can add hype, will the better player usually win? yes. but are randomly spawning items capable of mitigating a large ammount of skill by randomly giving a player a LARGE advantage? well... yes. They aren't really fit for a competitive ruleset. if you're going to legalize items you have to be prepared for the community to completely die out lol. because the people who want to take the game seriously aren't going to want stuff like that. it's only casual players who really want that type of variety while sacrificing balanced gameplay because they don't really care about winning. there's not much sense in including things like that in a competitive ruleset...

 

[Life]

Why does everyone forget that Capsules and explosive Capsules still spawn regardless of item flipping. Its like even worse, because without boxes, Capsules will spawn EVEN MORE, so basically they're boxes that don't hinder your mobility, if anything, they add to it.

If exploding boxes were an issue in Melee, exploding capsules are even worse of a problem in Brawl.

And this is the OTHER reason items in Brawl are banned.... ignorance.

Top row, second from the right.

Yes, Grim beat me to it, but the number of people who don't know this is staggering.

 

[Big-Cat]

but isn't that what adds variety and hype to a match. And items don't spawn randomly they have set intervals in which they appear based on the frequency they are set at. If we took the time to study how item spawning works maybe we could figure out more about them. And if a top player was really that good they would be able to completely overwhelm and shut down some newcomer if they were using items. If anything tripping is more random then items spawning.

And there are plenty of solutions in using items and plenty of ways to find a balance in using them if only the smash community was willing to try and do extensive testing of such ways to play.

You shouldn't need variety and hype added to a match by items. I can watch Marvel matches, Street Fighter matches, etc. and get hype, excitement, and variety thanks to the inherent mechanics and character design.

I was never a fan of items in serious matches (since I was eight with the original Smash) because I felt they took the focus away from the characters and the stage which are the two most important aspects of any match. Casual matches, I'll turn them on if no one minds.

 

[Steam]

basically what kung fu panda said ^

when people aren't timing people out with MK, the game can be pretty hype. Just look at Trela vs. ESAM. Trela in general brings hype. yeeaaa Lucario.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Saying items aren't fit for a competitive ruleset isn't really g solid point simply because Brawl itself wasn't designed for competitive play. Sure items don't work with our current ruleset but who's to say it's not possible with rules catered to them. And if anything items help build upon the characters. Smash as a series was made to be able to be played with items. Us not using them is one of the many reasons were found as a joke because we try to make the game live up to traditional standards for fighters. Building a strategy around facing your opponent while also having strategies in place for whatever items are on the field is what i think the game needs.

And while yes you can find hype and variety in game like SF and other traditional fighters because those games play differently and have far more depth that brawl or smash in general. Items add another layer of depth that's currently not there in matches without them, While some items i feel shouldn't be used in competitive play others should. But then again people refuse to try anything new so i guess there's nothing really you can do.

 

[Steam]

Saying items aren't fit for a competitive ruleset isn't really g solid point simply because Brawl itself wasn't designed for competitive play. Sure items don't work with our current ruleset but who's to say it's not possible with rules catered to them. And if anything items help build upon the characters. Smash as a series was made to be able to be played with items. Us not using them is one of the many reasons were found as a joke because we try to make the game live up to traditional standards for fighters. Building a strategy around facing your opponent while also having strategies in place for whatever items are on the field is what i think the game needs.

And while yes you can find hype and variety in game like SF and other traditional fighters because those games play differently and have far more depth that brawl or smash in general. Items add another layer of depth that's currently not there in matches without them, While some items i feel shouldn't be used in competitive play others should. But then again people refuse to try anything new so i guess there's nothing really you can do.

it's actually a good point because what you're saying is we shouldn't have competitive play at all since brawl wasn't designed for it.

Items don't really build upon the characters... they're so strong they erase character diversity since there's no point in hitting you with my bair that does 7% when I could wait for an item that gives me free hits that do absurd ammounts of damage and knockback. and it doesn't even add balance since they are awarded randomly.

yes, uneducated people from the fighting game community that find reasons to hate smash see banning items as a joke. thing is, if we universally legalized items about 98% of the scene would quit. all the casuals who would be happy about that would... keep playing casually.

Street fighter doesn't really have more depth than brawl. they both have roughly the same ammount of depth in different areas. SF is harder and more technical. but not more depth. And I'm not afraid to try new things, but in my experiences with items I KNOW they are completely unfit for a competitive environment. It would erase character diversity and depth for a random reward the game gave someone. everything would be centered around the items due to how strong they are... and it doesn't help they're essentially random.

 

[Jaguarandine]

Saying items aren't fit for a competitive ruleset isn't really g solid point simply because Brawl itself wasn't designed for competitive play.

Let's stay away from saying things like Brawl wasn't designed for competitive play. It IS being played as such, so it's a moot point.

You shouldn't need variety and hype added to a match by items. I can watch Marvel matches, Street Fighter matches, etc. and get hype, excitement, and variety thanks to the inherent mechanics and character design.

Likewise, let's leave any idea of "inherentness" of the table as well. Items are part of the game, are they not? Why aren't they inherent? You don't see people playing Marvel without Phoenix or x-factor. Even Sakurai has said that he prefers if players would use items. However, I'm not going to argue that point because it's a matter of preference, to play your game the way you want to play it.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

The point I'm trying to reach here is that items aren't something we should turn away from especially with brawl the way the games so slow paced. If we used items we'd most likely gain interest from the ppl who play SF and such and hate our community for not using items as well as support from nintendo as they had supported brawl at evo it's first year there and that was the only time they had items.

 

[Steam]

The point I'm trying to reach here is that items aren't something we should turn away from especially with brawl the way the games so slow paced. If we used items we'd most likely gain interest from the ppl who play SF and such and hate our community for not using items as well as support from nintendo as they had supported brawl at evo it's first year there and that was the only time they had items.

SF players would not competitively play a game that gives one player a massive advantage for no reason. They find reasons to hate on smash. Nintendo would support it because they cater to casuals

 

[Jaguarandine]

The point I'm trying to reach here is that items aren't something we should turn away from especially with brawl the way the games so slow paced. If we used items we'd most likely gain interest from the ppl who play SF and such and hate our community for not using items as well as support from nintendo as they had supported brawl at evo it's first year there and that was the only time they had items.

I completely agree with this. Let's just stay away from 'this game is better/deeper than that game' kind of talk because their all being played at high levels. It starts a never ending arguement with no apparent solution, and really, neither side is right or wrong.

 

[Steam]

adding items would completely kill the competitive community though :/

it really is pretty much like if the knives/knife cody uses just dropped randomly and anyone could pick them up. ... and they could be thrown instnatly...and they hit overhead... and they did a quarter of your health bar and sent you flying back while your opponent can pick it up again...

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Saying it would kill the competitive community isn't all true as smash currently is starting to die out even without items. And if casual players did hold tourneys and used items that would still be competitive in it's own way , different but still at some level competitive.

 

[Jaguarandine]

SF players would not competitively play a game that gives one player a massive advantage for no reason. They find reasons to hate on smash. Nintendo would support it because they cater to casuals

You're making some big assumptions here. SF players have played broken games for years. Whose to say they wouldn't play another? Also, Evo has credibility that other tournaments lack. It's already supported by companies like Capcom.

 

[Steam]

Saying it would kill the competitive community isn't all true as smash currently is starting to die out even without items. And if casual players did hold tourneys and used items that would still be competitive in it's own way , different but still at some level competitive.

it's dying out because of MK mainly... besides, casuals can and do hold their own item tournies.

and I figured SF players wouldn't want item brawl competetively since they're used to a balanced and fair game... I mean it's great to just to have fun... but in a tourney environment you would see the effect they can have. Just look what happens every time peach pulls a beam sword in brawl today... that would be what every match would be like for the whole match... and the beam sword is one of the most tame items... and this is a reward that's given out essentially AT RANDOM.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Yea but everyone gets upset about peach because it is unfair especially when you can't do the same. The reason she can pull out items is because that move was designed around when items are are. Just like how D3 can sometimes throw exploding capsules ( if the containers are on) and how diddy pulls out naners. Also items have set spawning times or interval. low spawns between 23-25 seconds medium around 15-18 high around 8-12 seconds. The only thing that's essentially random is which item that pops up and what spawn area. Also there is a mechanic that items spawn closer to the person losing which would allow for comeback to happen and such. There's still so much we don't understand on how items work and. I feel that we could probably figure out a pattern in where items spawn and what item but ppl can't bothered to show effort in doing so. We're able to hack the game in every way possible and figure out all this frame data but no one has ever tried to figure out how items work.

 

[Steam]

no one I've heard of has a problem with peach pulling items. it's part of her character design. not every character should be exactly the same. that's like saying every character should have a mach tornado and run as fast as sonic. people complain about naners but that's what everyone does with good characters. people tend to complain about everything effective.

the location items spawn is EVERYTHING. and just giving it to the losing player is arguably even worse... no one likes being punished for winning with something so powerful.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

But some items aren't really that powerful. I could list some items that shouldn't be used

bombs, containers, blast box, dragoon(although you do need to collect 3 parts) spicy curry, fire flower the two hammers. assist trophies (though most of the time there pretty easy to avoid), pokeballs.

The rest aren't that over powering and are rather easy to dodge. and smashballs also have a set spawning time but spawn dependent upon when and how many items are on the field as well as how far players are in the lead.

And items spawning near a player while can be considered punishing ppl for winning can also act a a way for the person losing to at least make a comeback happen. And there also a way for the winning player to take advantage of items spawning near the losing player if they zone and space out their opponent properly. And items are also only as powerful as is with the character the person who is using them. There's absolutely no way a complete newbie would be able to overpower and win vs a top player who knows how to dodge and use items effectively.

 

[Steam]

sure a pro could beat a low level player. but someone slightly worse than someone else could easily win because how much of an edge items give. Items such as the pitfall or beamsword or smart bomb give people a MASSIVE advantage for a slew of reasons.

 

[UltiMario]

You can turn containers off in Brawl, you are thinking of Melee.

And this is the OTHER reason items in Brawl are banned.... ignorance.

[snip]

Top row, second from the right.

Yes, Grim beat me to it, but the number of people who don't know this is staggering.

I recall testing this myself back when I was still trying out items for Brawl back in 08, so unless memory fails me, Capsules can still show up if items are on... either that or I'm recalling something like Dedede's capsule spawning wrongly.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

smart bombs you can DI out of and pitfall you can mash out of if you run over them and it's very rare for someone to get hit by one in the air while recovering. That and you could easily just ban pitfalls and beam swords.

 

[Life]

Your memory fails you. Sorry. I've played with items. If containers are off, capsules don't spawn.

_/('_')\_

 

[Ghostbone]

smart bombs you can DI out of and pitfall you can mash out of if you run over them and it's very rare for someone to get hit by one in the air while recovering. That and you could easily just ban pitfalls and beam swords.

But that's the thing, we'd have to ban basically every item except food and sandbag.

Edit: Oh and don't assume the competitive community has no idea how items work, last major in Australia, at a meet the day before everyone was playing FFAs with all items on high We know how all the items work lol, and they're not fit for competition. (except maybe food, but that's different).

 

[Steam]

yeah smart bombs are still unblockable and have a massive hitbox. and pitfalls randomly give a player an extremely good stage control option.

and using items already EXTREMELY important in competitive play already. if you can't use items you'll have an extremely hard time with snake/peach/RoB/Link/Tink and will never beat a single diddy ever.

 

[AdmiralFunkofTheSSPimpin]

items are banned in brawl because they spawn randomly. It would be like suddenly and randomly getting meter in street fighter just because you were in a certain part of the stage. the items themselves are also incredibly powerful compared to character's abilities. so just a beam sword appearing in the right spot can suddenly and randomly turn the tide of the match.

People love mario kart for this reason. Anyone can hit boxes in a point and that'll give them a string of awesome weapons that the person in first place wouldn't otherwise get. On the other hand, you can still get stars/lightning bolts in as high as second place if you use timing on the roulette and nobody will cry about how broken it is. It's a skill game any way you cut it.

Honestly i would say there are a few key items that would be broken in smash(hammers, pokeballs/assist trophies, even the paper fan sometimes), but on the whole i'd say far more items would make the game interesting. The game has good as well as bad for each character, and it makes up for some of the characters' shortcomings(characters w/o much kill power) or closes the gap between some exploitable strengths(items hitting MK out or a shuttle loop/dropping an item while being CGed). It can add a new skill set to the game if people can do bumper edge blocks and other creative techniques. I can tell you for sure that would be hated by plankers, but who cares? they were plankers lol.

 

[Steam]

uhhh a lot of the already best characters have kill problems... see: 3 of the worst 4 characters have tremendous killpower.

I also wasn't aware there was any timing on the rulette... I don't think there is. but just about... everyone acknowledges that competetive mario kart is an even bigger joke than brawl.

and having a bumper spawn next to you and you throwing at at the ledge is a essentially random event that mitigates a lot of skill. instead of having to work and put yourself at risk for a gimp. the game just gave you a free one.