Why is Smash not taken as seriously?

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

by that logic you just tripped into a fully charged Fsmash, instead of working for the kill the game just gave you a free one by making your opponent trip randomly.

 

[Steam]

yup, unfortunately we can't turn that off. however at the very least you can limit your tripping by not dashing as much. however there are still some regions known to use no tripping hacks in tourney.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

And this is the OTHER reason items in Brawl are banned.... ignorance.

Top row, second from the right.

Yes, Grim beat me to it, but the number of people who don't know this is staggering.

Actually items were banned in Brawl so fast because they hapazardly copy-pasta'd Melee's ruleset EVEN BEFORE THE GAME CAME OUT HERE and had tournaments using the Japanese version with Melee's ruleset, meaning items were off from the beginning of the birth of competitive Brawl. Japan did this too so don't blame solely America for this. Not a smooth move in hindsight as this is primarily what alienated many users.

I know how unbalanced they are, but at this point you cannot deny that unbalanced is a term that can accurately describe Brawl as an entierty. :/

Moving on, this.

Because all the smash players on SRK are other fighter players first and smash second and don't post about smash, or are under the age of 13. Hence stereotypes against the community, and as such, the game.

That and smash players that have never seriously tried to play traditional fighters competitively are the ones that always argue with the rest of the community.

The stupid people outnumber the smart people like 20:1 due to the large casual aspect of Brawl, remember that. The majority ruins the minority.

 

[Steam]

actually... if MK is gone brawl is more balanced than melee in the top tiers. not to mention half the roster isn't low tier in brawl.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

when you need to remove a character from the game that shows the game has obvious problems. Items solves issues with MK while sure other issues arise but that's why rules can be made. simply banning items because of them being random isn't imo that legit of a reason. No one can say items wouldn't better the game if they were implemented into our competitive community. The game would be easier for newer players to jump into, make the game far more fun than it currently is and probably keep interest.

 

[Steam]

when you need to remove a character from the game that shows the game has obvious problems. Items solves issues with MK while sure other issues arise but that's why rules can be made. simply banning items because of them being random isn't imo that legit of a reason. No one can say items wouldn't better the game if they were implemented into our competitive community. The game would be easier for newer players to jump into, make the game far more fun than it currently is and probably keep interest.

people would get screwed over by a random item appearance. then quit because they felt they should have won.

also IDK, imagining MK with a possible projectile seems absolutely ********. not to mention he'd still be able to nado and SL while holding items.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

but you also have to think that the person playing the MK could have an easier time being able to use an item like a motion sensor to help him zone out and control space against an MK. There are pros and cons with having items legal. And the amount of pros and cons would change depending on the rules we have for them. I know ISP had created an item based rule set that was accepted but I'd like to think there are more options out there to make the game more interesting and make it a more worth while experience that alienates itself from SF instead of trying to follow in it's traditions. Our current rules try to follow SF's and such and it's what gets up where we're at now with now being accepted by other communities.

 

[Steam]

but then the MK gets a motion sensor bomb. good luck approaching him because he even if you dash shield it he can just nado away the rest of your shield.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

then your allowed to wait for something to give you help instead of just running out of options and getting completely shutdown. I know things seem better off without items but i'm sure there are ppl would be willing to go to tourneys and start a build a competitive scene with items. But again ppl fail to want to try anything out like this so who knows if there are hundreds of ppl out there who are casual who want item tourneys but can't go to them because there aren't any. The game would gain so much more support that way imo. Especially when the creator prefers ppl to play that way. Heck if we used items sakurai might support us like Ono does for SF, idk but there are a plethora of things that we can and need to change.

 

[Steam]

then your allowed to wait for something to give you help instead of just running out of options and getting completely shutdown. I know things seem better off without items but i'm sure there are ppl would be willing to go to tourneys and start a build a competitive scene with items. But again ppl fail to want to try anything out like this so who knows if there are hundreds of ppl out there who are casual who want item tourneys but can't go to them because there aren't any. The game would gain so much more support that way imo. Especially when the creator prefers ppl to play that way. Heck if we used items sakurai might support us like Ono does for SF, idk but there are a plethora of things that we can and need to change.

owait but the next item that spawns is a ray gun right in front of MK. now what? owait MK just started planking with his ray gun. oshi what we gonna do now?

there are plenty of item tournies at gamestops and local stores etc.... and not many people want item tournies... most casuals just play the game.

 

[Jaguarandine]

@Eternal Yoshi

There are ignorant people on both sides. It's unfair to single out smash players when there are sf players that are just as bad. Let's leave that argument be.

actually... if MK is gone brawl is more balanced than melee in the top tiers. not to mention half the roster isn't low tier in brawl.

MK isn't really that bad. He's great for sure, but beatable. It really says something that ADHD is the 3rd best player. It means he had to beat all the MKs underneath him to get to where he is. Same for Ally. When he played Snake, there was only one MK player that he couldn't beat. It kind of reminds me of 3rd Strike. Yun is the best in this game, but you have to be really, really good to get there. Until then, Chun, Ken, Akuma, etc. all have a chance. For the most part, this still remains true and 3S is over 10 yrs old. IMO, when top 8s start being all MKs consistently then we can have this conversation again.

About banning him, it's a bad idea. All that will happen is Diddy and Snake take his place. People are already annoyed with banana shenanigans at this point. Imagine 10 Diddys instead of 10 MKs. Does that help Luigi's case? Not at all. SF has taught another valuable lesson: you don't bring down the ban hammer so easily because you could be damaging the game itself. Until it's proven totally broken you leave it in.

Here's another SF example. When CvS2 had been out for a little while, people discovered that you could cancel the beginning of special moves with rolls. For those of you not familiar with CVS2, general rolling makes your character invincible while they roll (like smash bros rolls pretty much). Roll Canceling, as it's called made every special move invincible. It's a difficult technique, but very doable with practice. When it was first used in tournaments, people called for the "hammer" right away. "Ban it", they would say, "it ruins the game." But the more experienced members of the community won out. "Let's wait", they said. Eventually, it turned out that RCs weren't so game-breaking after all. Players that used modes capable of RCs learned how to do it themselves (fight fire w/ fire), and those who used modes not capable of RCs learned how to parry, just defend, or dodge most attacks (including RCs) thrown at them. RCs didn't damage the game, far from it. They actually significantly improved the metagame, and made the overall game better and much more challenging.

 

[JOE!]

.....

If MK is banned Snake and Diddy's (as well as Falco's) counters will become more prominent, it's important to also note that the two have checks unlike MK

also items are banned for the sole reason that it turns the game from fightign each other to fighting over an item that gives a ludicrous advantage

 

[Steam]

actually diddy loses to luigi. lol

both diddy and snake lose to at least 3 characters. the only character who loses to less if MK is banned is falco... and one of his bad MUs is a hard counter. in general the cast does MUCH better against these top tiers than MK. even while all the MU practice goes into the MK matchup and not other top tiers. if MK was banned. Diddy wouldn't be top 3 for long.

MK makes roughly half of all the tourney winnings today. The only reason ADHD/GNES do so well is because diddy is one of the characters that actually stands a chance. unless you're one of them MK is almost requirement to do well in tourney. I mean... even ADHD is very pro-ban. Ally uses mainly MK now. against MKs he usually plays the ditto...

not to mention things like this abomination aren't too uncommon... http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=308187

 

[Jaguarandine]

Both of you guys are ignoring the statement that I posed. ADHD is better than ALL MKs excepting m2k and Ally. Ally's Snake probably is still better than all the MKs beneath him. In that case, is MK dominant, or is m2k dominant?

 

[Life]

Both of you guys are ignoring the statement that I posed. ADHD is better than ALL MKs excepting m2k and Ally. Ally's Snake probably is still better than all the MKs beneath him. In that case, is MK dominant, or is m2k dominant?

Each character has 1-2 people that are head and shoulders above the other whatever-mains.

M2K/Ally for MK
Ally for Snake
ADHD/Gnes for Diddy
Espy/X for Sonic
ESAM for Pikachu
Trela for Lucario
DEHF for Falco
NR for ZSS

et cetera (it's late and this is off the top of my head, someone tell me if these things have changed)

However, MK has something like ten MKs just in the states that do that kind of work, not to mention the hordes of mid-level MK players and that nearly everyone at least has a "pocket" MK. Check the rankings thread if you disbelieve me.

MK makes roughly half the money in this game for a reason.

inb4namesearches

tl;dr It's not that M2K is dominant... it's that *Ally and ADHD* are.

 

[Jaguarandine]

Yeah I see that. My argument is, if half of those players turned into Snake and Diddy mains, and became as proficient w/ them as they were with MK, wouldn't they win almost just as much? I mean, they could get good and be able to beat MKs like Gnes, Ally, and ADHD.

Btw, I don't mean to sound like a MK fanboy. I hate MK planking, turtling, and camping as much as the next guy.

What if items could bring MK down a notch? He can't plank and camp if a smash ball appears. He has to fight on the stage if he wants a chance at a good item. Also, I'm pretty sure homerun bat beats tornado.

 

[Steam]

no they wouldn't do as good with diddy and snake. those characters have multiple bad matchups and stages. they have the best MK matchups and they don't do all that much better than the characters MK thins out.

 

[Jaguarandine]

If that's true, why is ADHD the 3rd best player? Round and round we go..

 

[Steam]

If that's true, why is ADHD the 3rd best player? Round and round we go..

because MK filters out his bad matchups, such as Luigi and peach. MK actually invalidates those two almost entirely.

also keep in mind with MK banned, people will actually start learning the diddy matchup instead of everything being about MK

 

[Jaguarandine]

I missed InferiorityComplex's last statement so I'm going to answer that here.

It's not that M2K is dominant... it's that *Ally and ADHD* are.

So Ally and ADHD are the exception? I don't believe that for a second. Sure, people used MK before m2k started getting good. But when he did, that opened the floodgates. I've seen it before countless times in other fighting games. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. People started thinking I too can win if I pick MK. And sure enough, many of them did because MK is a great character. Not Ally (for a time anyway) and ADHD though. They've shown that players can pick characters other than MK and still win if you put hard work into it and dedication. Now others need to follow their example.

@Steam

So ADHD and Ally weren't only the exception, they were also lucky?

 

[Steam]

I missed InferiorityComplex's last statement so I'm going to answer that here.



So Ally and ADHD are the exception? I don't believe that for a second. Sure, people used MK before m2k started getting good. But when he did, that opened the floodgates. I've seen it before countless times in other fighting games. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. People started thinking I too can win if I pick MK. And sure enough, many of them did because MK is a great character. Not Ally (for a time anyway) and ADHD though. They've shown that players can pick characters other than MK and still win if you put hard work into it and dedication. Now others need to follow their example.

people do. less than 20% of players use MK...

 

[JOE!]

If that's true, why is ADHD the 3rd best player? Round and round we go..

this is what i said earlier about how a MK ban will bring out snake's and diddy's checks.

The reason why Snake and Diddy are so good despite even having checks is because theyre good vs MK, that in itself says something, no?

 

[Ghostbone]

Items are worse than MK, and are not a viable option to limit him.

And item play will never work competitively in general, and I repeat that the only two items that could be viable are food and sandbag, and it's hardly worth it to turn them on. (especially with how much the community hates items in general).

Though I will admit item tournaments will probably have more entrants than tournaments with them off, the quality of the competition drops dramatically.

 

[AdmiralFunkofTheSSPimpin]

uhhh a lot of the already best characters have kill problems... see: 3 of the worst 4 characters have tremendous killpower.

I also wasn't aware there was any timing on the rulette... I don't think there is. but just about... everyone acknowledges that competetive mario kart is an even bigger joke than brawl.

and having a bumper spawn next to you and you throwing at at the ledge is a essentially random event that mitigates a lot of skill. instead of having to work and put yourself at risk for a gimp. the game just gave you a free one.

I was really throwing mario kart as an example. I actually have no idea whether or not there is such a thing as competitive mario kart, but i'm just saying it doesn't take much away from the game because there is a skill factor that would often times offset and random factor you could have or think of. And there shouldn't be any huge salt about something being able to be done most of the time instead of all. The reason competition exists and is interesting is because of upsets/redemption. If you say anything otherwise, i'd have to say that's pretty jaded. Competition isn't about establishing dominance, it's about maintaining it. That's why tournaments continue to occur despite the victory of an individual. You're taking it upon yourself to shoot down all thoughts instead of taking a step back from what's 'normal' in the current smash environment.

I play no items all the time in tournaments or otherwise, but i'd say it would be interesting to do things a bit differently. We've been playing vanilla smash for too long lol

 

[Steam]

I was really throwing mario kart as an example. I actually have no idea whether or not there is such a thing as competitive mario kart, but i'm just saying it doesn't take much away from the game because there is a skill factor that would often times offset and random factor you could have or think of. And there shouldn't be any huge salt about something being able to be done most of the time instead of all. The reason competition exists and is interesting is because of upsets/redemption. If you say anything otherwise, i'd have to say that's pretty jaded. Competition isn't about establishing dominance, it's about maintaining it. That's why tournaments continue to occur despite the victory of an individual. You're taking it upon yourself to shoot down all thoughts instead of taking a step back from what's 'normal' in the current smash environment.

I play no items all the time in tournaments or otherwise, but i'd say it would be interesting to do things a bit differently. We've been playing vanilla smash for too long lol

there's a difference between someone actually earning the upset and beating someone, and the game just giving it to someone. the latter is just dumb and would cause many people to be turned off from the game especially when it costs them money.

 

[Jaguarandine]

I can't accept this idea because when you say character matchups with MK caused Diddy and Snake to become so good, you're taking something away from players like ADHD when you say that. Is it the player, or is it the character? Obviously it's some combination of both, but I think you guys are ignoring the player aspect a little too much.

So who are Diddy and Snake's hard counters? What characters will rise closer to the top once MK is banned? I know I've seen results where 5 or more of the top 10 were Snake players. Where were these counters then?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Those counters were being held down by Meta Knight.

 

[Ghostbone]

Competitive Mario Kart does exist (at least for the DS version) and there is no such thing as timing the roulette to give you a certain item >.>

You can also turn items completely off on the wii version, but nobody does as the game basically just becomes, first one to make a small mistake loses.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

isn't that what happen in brawl you get punished for your mistakes. And it definitely is possible to time the roulette to give you a specific item if you couldn't then they would just automatically give you one right when you break the boxes open.

Just because the current metagame is wrapped around not using items doesn't mean if we used items and developed a metagame for it that it wouldn't become more competitive i for one think it would as well as gain more interest by a wider range of players as well as gain support from nintendo and Sakurai.

 

[GDX]

Sadly, we've done it to ourselves as of why smash isn't taken seriously. We as a community have had numerous opportunities to break perceptions of ourselves, and yet we mess it up every single time.

 

[Ghostbone]

And it definitely is possible to time the roulette to give you a specific item if you couldn't then they would just automatically give you one right when you break the boxes open.

No it's not lol, pressing the item just makes it come faster.

This is like those myths that you can unlock Ridley if you play 10,000 hours of Brawl or something.

 

[Djent]

Sadly, we've done it to ourselves as of why smash isn't taken seriously. We as a community have had numerous opportunities to break perceptions of ourselves, and yet we mess it up every single time.

DING DING DING DING DING!

Numerous high-profile members of other communities have shown Smash tremendous respect (Glenn of GYT and Keits of SRK come to mind). These people continue to love Smash as a series...so the problem is obviously with us.

I was going to post a huge wall of rage, but you've said it much more succinctly.

/Thread

 

[Jaguarandine]

I got a bit off topic, but anyone know who those counter characters are? I really don't think they'd move up more than a few spots, and if someone like Luigi entered the top 10, I'd be extremely surprised. For me, the best way to fix the MK problem is to use the strategy of "try harder." I think most people are doing that though, like Gnes for example. But banning MK would just fuel some SF player's flames.

Ok, so some people have identified what they believe to be a problem. That's the first step. No reason to throw up your hands yet. Now how does the smash community go about fixing it?

 

[Steam]

DING DING DING DING DING!

Numerous high-profile members of other communities have shown Smash tremendous respect (Glenn of GYT and Keits of SRK come to mind). These people continue to love Smash as a series...so the problem is obviously with us.

I was going to post a huge wall of rage, but you've said it much more succinctly.

/Thread

All keits does is post threads on SRK when something bad happens in the smash community. it's always portrayed negatively and fuels SO MUCH HATE... :/

@Jaguarandine- Diddy is also countered by Snake and Wario as well as peach and luigi. he also goes even with several others. all 4 of these have MK as their worst matchup

Snake loses to Marth, Olimar, Pikachu, and Dedede. MK banned would help all of these characters. especially olimar and Dedede.

 

[Djent]

Except the Smash community deserves negative PR for being so accepting of splitting.

 

[Steam]

Except the Smash community deserves negative PR for being so accepting of splitting.

how on earth could you say we are accepting of splitting when two players got carded for splitting and ultimately caused a grand total of 9$ difference between winnings... there was a thread about it on SRK and everyone continued to hate on the smash community for it. a vast majority of them only do it because it's popular to pick on the smash community. very few actually have been with the smash community or even tried playing the game beyond a casual level.

 

[Strong Badam]

Except the Smash community deserves negative PR for being so accepting of splitting.

rather, it deserves negative PR for trying to punish players for splitting rather than getting better so players can't rely on splitting.

 

[Steam]

rather, it deserves negative PR for trying to punish players for splitting rather than getting better so players can't rely on splitting.

the smash community will just get criticized no matter what we do.

 

[Strong Badam]

look at that defeatist attitude, smashers will never amount to anything

 

[Steam]

look at that defeatist attitude, smashers will never amount to anything

not really, we just have to accept that they'll always be critical because it's just the accepted and popular thing for that community to do. so we have to just ignore them.