Velox
Smash Ace
****, that was a good way to word that.
Marth has all the tools to own Falco, it's just the little mistakes and crap that every player makes that stops that from happening.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Why is shiek a counter for marth?
- Thread starter Mahjong
- Start date
Marth has all the tools to own Falco, it's just the little mistakes and crap that every player makes that stops that from happening.
Schweppes
Smash Ace
Marth's matchups get more and more even as you gain experience and get better. Most people when they first start have trouble with Falco and (especially) Sheik, but even Sheik gets to be pretty even after a while. Just make sure to strike FD. >_>
G@BE
Smash Lord
Falco vs Marth is not even fun for the falco.
Falco just get tap and pushed all over the place way to easily. Its one of my better matches.
Falco gets ***** in the air and on the ground... The only big problem with all of that is getting past falco's **** and starting your own. Coming from above is always the best... but this is not a falco talk **** about thread so back on with the sheik hate.
Falco just get tap and pushed all over the place way to easily. Its one of my better matches.
Falco gets ***** in the air and on the ground... The only big problem with all of that is getting past falco's **** and starting your own. Coming from above is always the best... but this is not a falco talk **** about thread so back on with the sheik hate.
Tyson651
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2006
- Messages
- 1,643
i dunno, but the only thing i can see is if marth grabs falco, and does a perfect chain grab, otherwise he will only get falco up to max of 70% after a failed-to-kill chain grab.
falco can easily rack up damage against marth, and is so much up his *** with the lasers u have to approach from the air which makes it easier for falco.
falco can easily rack up damage against marth, and is so much up his *** with the lasers u have to approach from the air which makes it easier for falco.
Tristan_win
Not dead.
...Dude if I were to name ever single thing that Sheik could do to Marth then I'll be here all day. What I tried to force on was things that showed that Sheik counter Marth.
Oh and what I listed isn't "noob Sheik Tactics" but just Sheik Tactics.
Razgriz
Smash Journeyman
I think what this guy and many others are trying to communicate is not that noob sheiks will win vs any Marth, but that Marth must be advanced to fight on even ground with a novice Sheik.
G@BE
Smash Lord
All "Sheik Tactics" are "noob Sheik Tactics" heh
Tristan_win
Not dead.
No G@be Sheik doesn't have enough tactics to even separate them after all she is a very straightforward character.
G@BE
Smash Lord
Hence noob tactics... what are you not getting about this... >.>
Tristan_win
Not dead.
Noob tactics is a label that is given to poor players or people who do stupid things but if they’re really nothing better or worst then how can you really call it that?
G@BE
Smash Lord
Label giving to a certian stream of combo's that any poor/pro sheik can do. Noob Tactics given to all shieks becuase most of them all do the same thing... >.>
ChaosKnight
Smash Master
Sheik and marth are even imo and at high level play they combo each other very well back and forth...
hey look a VA sheik player i dont see much at tourneys mayb eyou should come up to a NoVA/MD tourney and face me since i do play with some amazing sheiks that live in the NoVA/MD area i would like to face a SoVA sheik to see how they compare
hey look a VA sheik player i dont see much at tourneys mayb eyou should come up to a NoVA/MD tourney and face me since i do play with some amazing sheiks that live in the NoVA/MD area i would like to face a SoVA sheik to see how they compare
Tristan_win
Not dead.
Most low skilled Sheik really do the same thing over and over that is true but that also makes them extremely predicable and if someone can't beat someone who does the same strategy over and over again then they must improve them selves or begin to think while play the game.
What pro sheiks do is basically the same type of approach as the lower level Sheiks but the key difference is mind games and pure raw skill they use to beat down there opponent.
-ChaosKnight
...Yeah I've noticed there’s not many good sheik players down here anyways I'll love to fight against you some time man it would be a nice treat to fight against someone who have fought many Sheik to see how I stand.
Sweet I'm a Smash Journeyman now 8)
G@BE
Smash Lord
I should have put this better. All Sheik players do the same move sets over and over. Everyone has diff mind games ( thats a given) but to say All "Tactics" are "Noob Tactics" is what i am right about.
Razgriz
Smash Journeyman
Wow.... I can't believe people still try to argue that they're even....
Just read this thread. They are not even. It's a fact.
G@BE
Smash Lord
should be qouted on everyones sig... for truth!
Shai Hulud
Smash Lord
All Marth can do to Falco is chaingrabs, utilt chains, and an ftilt/fsmash tipper if you're lucky and the Falco messes up a DI. And the chaingrab vs. Falco is not the easiest thing in the world.
As soon as Falco hits Marth with ANYTHING other than SHL, he can combo Marth for at least 50%. And Falco's spike + ledge-hopped BAIRs **** Marth's recovery.
Make no mistake, the Falco has the advantage. People just get this mistaken idea that it's an even match or that Marth is better than he is because they watch Ken or Azen destroy Falcos. But it's Ken and Azen. They're not representative of you or me.
G@BE
Smash Lord
Its proven fact that on recovery when Falco is heading back to the stage. That Falco gets ***** off the ledge. One hit while falco is off the ledge and he is pretty much screwed.
What you have told me can also be said the same way for Falco
All falco does is short hop laser/ shine every 5 seconds. but that does not mean he has an advantage over one another.
That you saying once Marth gets hit its zero to 50% i could say the same for Marth once he grabs falco its zero to 50% at least or death.
Its an even match
I win this video game my good sir
gg
What you have told me can also be said the same way for Falco
All falco does is short hop laser/ shine every 5 seconds. but that does not mean he has an advantage over one another.
That you saying once Marth gets hit its zero to 50% i could say the same for Marth once he grabs falco its zero to 50% at least or death.
Its an even match
I win this video game my good sir
gg
I know this post is off topic but I have a question. Why do people think sheik combos are nooby? Is it because they are so simple to do ?
For example, Fox's uthrow uair combos are very simple too, and every fox does this, but I never hear anyone say that combo is nooby.
For example, Fox's uthrow uair combos are very simple too, and every fox does this, but I never hear anyone say that combo is nooby.
Shai Hulud
Smash Lord
But that's all Falco does to ANYONE. His game is comprised of shine/pillaring combos and SHL approach tactics. And yes, he has a bad recovery, but nonetheless he is God Tier because he ***** so ridiculously hard on the stage.
And it's a lot harder to do a 0 to 50 on Falco than it is for Falco to do to Marth. That chaingrab isn't easy at low %, and even if you could do it, unless you're on FD or PS it's probably not going to work anyhow. And your chaingrab advantage is virtually negated by the SHL opportunities presented by these stages.
Also, it's not that easy to grab a good Falco. Shield-grabs are out because he can L-cancel into shines faster than you can grab, and JC dash grabs are harder than usual because of the SHL slowing you down, in addition to the fact that Falco's spend little time on the ground unless they are shining.
Stryk9
Smash Journeyman
i dont think shiek counters marth
but she is just a hard opponent
marth players have to play diferent against shiek
you have to stop the double fair or nair approaches and hold back
spam fast moves like the dtilt and try to get bellow shiek or get her grabbed into some utilts
once shes airborn and spiining then start with the fairs uairs nairs and hopefully a fmash
my issue is that shes hard to edgeguard even if you edge hog etc
her teleport thing hurts marth edgegurd game alot
but she is just a hard opponent
marth players have to play diferent against shiek
you have to stop the double fair or nair approaches and hold back
spam fast moves like the dtilt and try to get bellow shiek or get her grabbed into some utilts
once shes airborn and spiining then start with the fairs uairs nairs and hopefully a fmash
my issue is that shes hard to edgeguard even if you edge hog etc
her teleport thing hurts marth edgegurd game alot
Velox
Smash Ace
<.<G@BE said:
I'm surprised G@BE even responded to that.
I would love to debate that one with you Shai, but that's another thread. Sorry for bringing it up in the first place
mood4food77
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2005
- Messages
- 5,964
it's impossible to be bad with sheik
her basic combo, dthrow, ftilt, fair, can be pulled off by anyone, heck, if i could use a controller with my feet, i could probably pull that off
her combos pretty much haven't changed since the beginning, she just *****, ken showed us marth, stuff that was thought never to be used
how hard is it to throw a couple ftilts in a row? if it's not hard, then why do pros still do it, cause it works, 90% of sheik's combos are noob
sheik is bad for marth, her ftilt has the same reach as marth's fsmash but it's faster and it can lead to marth's death, marth cannot do to sheik what sheik can do to him, marth has to work hard for a 0-death, sheik only needs a dthrow...think about it
her basic combo, dthrow, ftilt, fair, can be pulled off by anyone, heck, if i could use a controller with my feet, i could probably pull that off
her combos pretty much haven't changed since the beginning, she just *****, ken showed us marth, stuff that was thought never to be used
how hard is it to throw a couple ftilts in a row? if it's not hard, then why do pros still do it, cause it works, 90% of sheik's combos are noob
sheik is bad for marth, her ftilt has the same reach as marth's fsmash but it's faster and it can lead to marth's death, marth cannot do to sheik what sheik can do to him, marth has to work hard for a 0-death, sheik only needs a dthrow...think about it
G@BE
Smash Lord
But a good marth will be able to grab a good falco. See everything you are saying is just general and just it will go back and forth thats why they are so even to play against.
Marth and Falco even.
JFox
Smash Hero
Falco>Marth. PC is a great example of why. If the falco doesn't mess up, and forces the Marth on the offensive, Marth can do very little. PC's favorite match up is Falco vs. Marth.
With flawless tech skills, like many of the new reigning falco players, Marth has to just play off mistakes, and this is just getting harder and harder. And on top of that, Marth can't mess up once he's got a grab because they are so difficult to get on a good Falco.
Falco>Marth.
With flawless tech skills, like many of the new reigning falco players, Marth has to just play off mistakes, and this is just getting harder and harder. And on top of that, Marth can't mess up once he's got a grab because they are so difficult to get on a good Falco.
Falco>Marth.
G@BE
Smash Lord
okay yea... Thats one person... Well not one person a couple people. He is good in that match up.
Im good in Falcon vs Fox. Fox ***** Falcon but i can win with Falcon.
You are taking that off of one person. being PC chris
There even. All big players play off mistakes anyways that most of what they look for.
Im good in Falcon vs Fox. Fox ***** Falcon but i can win with Falcon.
You are taking that off of one person. being PC chris
There even. All big players play off mistakes anyways that most of what they look for.
Hank McCoy
Smash Ace
true/chu dat
JFox
Smash Hero
Are you kidding? One person....you know how many solid tech skilled falcos there are? People think that just cuz ken beat BS, he can beat falcos like its his day job. BS wasn't the smartest falco, very offensive and very unexperienced.
People like PC, Dope, Tink, Forward, and many others can play a very mean Falco. Other than Ken, who is above all those players in skill, other Marth's can't do ****. M2k plays an amazing Marth, easily top 5 in the country, and was 2 stocking PC's fox. Than PC goes Falco- 3 stocks M2k.
And PC isn't the only skilled Falco. These days people like dashizwiz are taking Falco to a level no one ever dreamed. One shine is equal to one of Marth's grabs in damage, and yet its so much easier to land. And platforms mean nothing to Falco while comboing.
Its probably just as hard a match up ON THE PRO LEVEL as fighting a sheik.
People like PC, Dope, Tink, Forward, and many others can play a very mean Falco. Other than Ken, who is above all those players in skill, other Marth's can't do ****. M2k plays an amazing Marth, easily top 5 in the country, and was 2 stocking PC's fox. Than PC goes Falco- 3 stocks M2k.
And PC isn't the only skilled Falco. These days people like dashizwiz are taking Falco to a level no one ever dreamed. One shine is equal to one of Marth's grabs in damage, and yet its so much easier to land. And platforms mean nothing to Falco while comboing.
Its probably just as hard a match up ON THE PRO LEVEL as fighting a sheik.
Hank McCoy
Smash Ace
im sorry, lol, no. its even. falco doesnt "beat" marth. you keep saying "there are a ton of technical falcos", but you only give 1 example of a falco who does really well consistently agaisnt marth, pc chris. none of the other falco mains you listed would say they beat marths all the time.
G@BE
Smash Lord
Solid tech skill does not mean exactly smart now does it. No one ever said anything about Ken beating any Falco's anyways.
Do you also realize that PC and M2k play each other alot?
You still don't look at the same level of marth players. Ken is probably what the only pro marth player i can think of right now besides FastLikeTree. I mean all you have to do to escape a start up of a shine combo is just roll away from it. I never try and grab a falco. Its probably the dumbest thing you can do in that match up anyways. But if you do get grabbed by a marth it is pretty much over as well.
There pretty **** even.
Brightside6382
Smash Lord
lol if escaping shines was as simple as "rolling away" Marth vs. Falco would be my fav match up. It doesn't matter if Marth can do the same damage with a grab, landing a shine compared to a grab is a hell of alot easier. Falco has a much easier time getting damage in compared to Marth and if that doesn't make the match up tilted in Falco's favor I don't know what does.
Hank McCoy
Smash Ace
its even. marth can gay the **** out of falco on the sides.
no offense, but this is a terribly bad statement.
If you're getting 0-death'd by sheik, you need to learn to DI.
If you're EVER hit by the Dthrow-->ftilt-->fair combo.. again, ur DI;ing wrong. Sheik really shouldnt ever hit u with more than 1 move out of the dthrow if you DI properly.
If tilts ever combo you in a row, you're DI'ing wrong.
If you let sheik back on stage, you did something wrong.
At a high level, Sheik is NOT AT ALL a counter to Marth.
Advantageous, yes. A counter? No, not at all. I'd say 55-45 in favor of Sheik.
Brightside6382
Smash Lord
naw thats just a myth
Razgriz
Smash Journeyman
It's true that fox's upthrow+uair is simple and easy as hell, but a lot of fox's comboes require very sharp reflexes. He's the ultimate character if you have superhuman reflexes. He's a hell of a lot harder to play than Marth or Sheik.
G@BE
Smash Lord
Well what is the big mistake for everyone usually getting shined?
Them trying to shield grab from one of fox or falco's attacks. Rolling away from the attack and just looking for another opening is probably alot smarter then it would be to sit there and just try to shield grab.