Why is shiek a counter for marth?

[mood4food77]

nair, fair, or dair ledgehopped all work, with the dair, make sure sheik is at a high enough percent where she'll go upwards from the hit, even if you hit with the tip

 

[Tyson651]

haha, arguing? yes i'm sitting here trying to make my post count higher than everyone else cuz i care so much to be one of those noobs who joins smash boards just to have a high post count so people can see that i have no life and sit here and post all day.

i was just saying the more specific, and to just say one of the best is an understatement and if i were ken i'd be insulted for someone who plays marth(i'm implying) to just say one of the best as if you question he is the best or not.

anyways, sheik is a hard matchup for marth if your a noob who doesn't follow and watch out for everything she is trying to do. if you watch most marths they play it patient and defensive like M2K did to KDJ at last weeks tourney. ken on the other hand seems to play quite aggressive, and honestly as far as ken's record against sheiks it doesn't seem to be the way to go because he lost to kdj most of all of the last season and to isai.

anyways, most pros have preached it over and over being aggressive isn't a very smart idea because aggressive is labeled as going after the opponent without having a gameplan(not saying ken doesn't have a plan or plays stupid.)

azen beat ken in a marth ditto in a recent tourney, people think azen could be better than ken, who knows? i dont, and that is why i say one of the best.

and IF ur trying to insult me that i sit here trying to raise my post counts, think again. (i cant see where ur trying to get with ur first paragraph, so dont get a hissy fit if u think i misunderstood u.)

 

[G@BE]

Has anyone ever seen Fast Like Tree play marth

hes marth is most likely better then M2K heh

 

[Plairnkk]

Has anyone ever seen Fast Like Tree play marth

hes marth is most likely better then M2K heh

i'd like to see FLT's marth beat KDJ'S sheik.

Atm i think M2K has the best marth :/

 

[technomancer]

Ken's Marth would donk M2K's is all I'm saying, but Ken has so much trouble against Foxes, so I dunno.

NEOOOOOOOOOO

Also, the original post has that Marth has better range than Shiek, but Marth leans forward with all of his forward reaching attacks, so most of Sheik's (gay) attacks will beat them or tie.

 

[Velox]

... ...lol, people suddenly stopped knowing what they're talking about...

 

[JBM falcon08]

azen beat ken in a marth ditto in a recent tourney, people think azen could be better than ken, who knows? i dont, and that is why i say one of the best.

and IF ur trying to insult me that i sit here trying to raise my post counts, think again. (i cant see where ur trying to get with ur first paragraph, so dont get a hissy fit if u think i misunderstood u.)

no i wasn't saying that, i'm just saying i'm not one of those people. marth dittos prove nothing btw, just because they beat one another in marth dittos doesn't prove who's better, if that were the case then the dispute for best falcon would've been probably solved by now, it'd be darkrain.

 

[Brightside6382]

no i wasn't saying that, i'm just saying i'm not one of those people. marth dittos prove nothing btw, just because they beat one another in marth dittos doesn't prove who's better, if that were the case then the dispute for best falcon would've been probably solved by now, it'd be darkrain.

really? I remember someone telling me darkrain was horrible at Falcon ditto's.

Also, he is right a ditto match doesn't prove who is better with the said character.

 

[Mew2King]

You people make any post of Sadaharu Inui's look like an Einstein post by comparison.

 

[Dr. Steve Brule]

You people (besides Plank) make any post of Sadaharu Inui's look like an Einstein post by comparison.

this coming from some unknown smasher :sigh:

 

[ArcNatural]

this coming from some unknown smasher :sigh:

lol i hope this is sarcasm...

 

[Dr. Steve Brule]

lol i hope this is sarcasm...

what is sarcasm? :sigh:

 

[Young Danny]

Marth is an easy character to combo. Sheik can combo consistently and easily.

Sheik has needles.

Tilt to Fair

Sheik has an easy time KOing Marth reguardless of how high his percentage is. It is harder for Marth to KO at high percentages.

Sheik is not a Marth counter, it's more of a favorable match in sheik's favor.

Best post I've seen so far.

For the future, don't judge matchups (characters and pros) based on one match, one tournament, or vids. Is Shiek a "counter" for Marth? Of course not, but the matchup is certainly in shiek's favor.


My two cents (having worked every MLG event last season)

1. Ken is not the clear #1 anymore. In my opinion he is still the best, but you cannot pencil him in as the winner like you used to be able to. KDJ thrice beat Ken (Orlando and Vegas twice) PC beat KDJ (Vegas), Azen beat PC (Chicago and NYC), PC beat Azen (Vegas), Ken beat Azen (Vegas), Azen beat Ken (NYC) , Azen beat Chu (Orlando and Vegas). On any given day, any one of five people (KDJ, PC, Ken, Azen and M2k) can get first. The "Ken era" is over.

2. Pros are bettering their main character, but where the match-up has consistently netted them a loss (KDJ's fox vs. Marth, M2K's fox vs. KDJ's fox, anyone vs. Chu's IC's) they will pick up a second character (KDJ Shiek for Marth's, M2K Marth for PC's Falco and KDJ's Fox, PC Peach for IC's) and it almost exclusively for that situation.

 

[Mew2King]

Marth has been my best character ever since like 2 weeks before MLG Vegas. Fox is my 2nd best.

Oh yes and people, Sheik is definitely a Marth counter, I'm just good at the matchup (besides DIing KDJ's combos) so I don't mind it. That doesn't make it not a counter. There is no one character that does better vs Marth than Sheik does, and Sheik has the advantage, so therefore she's a counter. Your opinions are simply wrong. ^_^

JMB Falcon08 you need to stop posting you obviously don't know anything I've been reading your posts for the last 3 pages and it's full of false information but a lot of people also have false information in their posts too so whatever.

 

[Hoefler]

M2k, sounds like your definition of counter is a little screwy. Having an advantage isn't the same of being a "counter." Otherwise, the Sheik would never lose.

True counters do not exist.

 

[Plairnkk]

lol@m2k writing besides plank and then deleting it.

m2k sheik does not counter marth, she just has an advantage.

that's what i've been saying all along and you agree with usually.

counter is sheik vs bowser, peach vs ic's.. not sheik vs marth.

 

[JBM falcon08]

m2k your probably right to make the assumption that i don't know as much as you in this matchup, because from what your reputation tells everyone is you study this game like its your life(i'm not trying to make that an insult, in fact props to ya), but as far as i'm concerned most of what i've said so far is nothing but opinions on my side other than the fact that pros say not to be aggressive in alot of situations and that marth dittos don't prove who is the overall better marth in all matchups.

basically if anything, your personal experience>JBM's personal experience and obviously it'd be smarter for people to take your advice, i'm just trying to help in anyway i can, because this is a marth board for those who have certain problems against characters especially sheik.

 

[G@BE]

I still am going to say that Fast Like Tree's marth is better >.>

At FC6 he was just having a crap day. I know he would do better anyother day. but thats just me

 

[DuKe™]

I am pretty sure the M2K doesnt have the best Marth and that is Azen is a close 2nd to Ken
although M2K and FLT are amazing marths.. i guess well just have to see FLT vs M2K but does how well someone do against a certain person really determine they are better than the other because dont a lot of people do good against a certain someone than the other, doesnt it all depend on how much you experience you have against some one. I know the FLT M2K and whoever else are all on the pro level and there nationally ranked among the best if there almost in the same league can you still compare them so well with a 100 % definite answer

 

[Tyson651]

1. Ken is not the clear #1 anymore. In my opinion he is still the best, but you cannot pencil him in as the winner like you used to be able to. KDJ thrice beat Ken (Orlando and Vegas twice) PC beat KDJ (Vegas), Azen beat PC (Chicago and NYC), PC beat Azen (Vegas), Ken beat Azen (Vegas), Azen beat Ken (NYC) , Azen beat Chu (Orlando and Vegas). On any given day, any one of five people (KDJ, PC, Ken, Azen and M2k) can get first. The "Ken era" is over.

Oh yes and people, Sheik is definitely a Marth counter, I'm just good at the matchup (besides DIing KDJ's combos) so I don't mind it. That doesn't make it not a counter. There is no one character that does better vs Marth than Sheik does, and Sheik has the advantage, so therefore she's a counter. Your opinions are simply wrong. ^_^

THANK YOU. i was trying to get those two exact ideas out this whole time.

except young danny explained it more better than me, and mew2king, well, u cant argue with him cause hes mew2king. >.>

 

[Mew2King]

of all the characters in the game, Marth's hardest matchup is Sheik, so it's a counter.

Sheik vs Bowser is just horrible ****, hell --- Inui --- even beat me in a dollar money match in that (I won a match though yayuhz)

A counter is something that is used to beat something else. KoreanDJ uses Sheik to beat Marth instead of using Fox, because it's a counter match, meaning Sheik is used to beat this character [Marth] that he'd rather not fight with Fox.

My opinion of Sheik vs Marth is half way between 55-45 and 60-40.

 

[DemonicShadows]

Another example of a counter would be Ice Climbers and Pichu, only this one's even worse than Sheik and Marth...and Sheik and Bowser...

If there's anymore, let me know.

Marth ***** others, btw, so I agree with Mew2King.

 

[Reese]

Okay Mew2King, if that is your real name, marth counters sheik. All he has to do is press down-b. There you go lol.

 

[Tyson651]

but if ur comparing high tier vs low tier, such as, bowser with sheik, sheik gets a lot of the advantage from the big gap in tier level wise, and on top of that, counter characters.

 

[FrostByte]

Even if bowser was higher in the tier list, he'd still get ***** by sheik.

 

[Hank McCoy]

My opinion of Sheik vs Marth is half way between 55-45 and 60-40.

aka 57.5-42.5 (sry i pulled a m2k)

 

[Tyson651]

if bowser was higher on the tier list, yes he would still get ***** by sheik but not that badly, i wouldnt even consider it ****, maybe abuse..

cause if u look at it like an upgrade from roy to marth, then bowser wouldnt do that bad. :/

 

[Schweppes]

But if you're 'upgrading' Bowser you're changing how the matchup works. The point is, regardless of his position on any list, Sheik just ***** the **** out of him.

match-up > tiers

 

[Tyson651]

what im trying to say is, low tiers get super ***** by high tiers if they get countered too cause its just multiplying the effect of the advantages of the better character.

if the low tiers werent so crappy, like marth, even though its a counter, marth still has a fat chance to win against sheik, so its not total pwned anal ****.

 

[SamDvds]

A couple points...as a sheik player (secondary, not main) it's not a full out counter with marth, its more a means of survival because my main is peach...i have a much easier time against marth with sheik, but i still have to stay on my toes think before i move and play defensive...marths biggest weakness is projectiles so i just use needles on him from far away til he comes in at me...then if he tries to jump over the needles and come down on me with a F-air i just shield grab when he lands and there goes your chain throw. Also, i try to pick big stages like FD or Corneria...maybe PK stadium

And in response to the comment about all tactics with sheik are noob and any noob sheik can beat a marth with these...marth has noob tactics as well...hence the C-stick spamming whores (all of you know these type of marths)...a novice marth can beat a higher level peach with 'noob' tactics, using only the c-stick.

P.S. i know this is not a peach thread i was just making an example.

 

[Brightside6382]

aka 57.5-42.5 (sry i pulled a m2k)

We should change the match up chart to now include fractions.

 

[Razgriz]

of all the characters in the game, Marth's hardest matchup is Sheik, so it's a counter.

Sheik vs Bowser is just horrible ****, hell --- Inui --- even beat me in a dollar money match in that (I won a match though yayuhz)

A counter is something that is used to beat something else. KoreanDJ uses Sheik to beat Marth instead of using Fox, because it's a counter match, meaning Sheik is used to beat this character [Marth] that he'd rather not fight with Fox.

My opinion of Sheik vs Marth is half way between 55-45 and 60-40.

By all means keep argueing. It'll be good to keep this thread up towards the top in the forum so people who haven't fought a Sheik as Marth or who don't understand the definition of a counter-pick can be educated. Hopefully they will read this post if they don't get the point after the first few pages.

 

[Plairnkk]

m2k owes me a dollar because i ***** his roy

 

[G@BE]

Even with M2k in this thread it still gets dumber by the min.... >.>

 

[Randomg]

Agreed, I wish I had sbr access so I didn't have to read about people with "issues" on common knowledge...

 

[Mahjong]

who mains marth here?

 

[Razgriz]

I main Marth, and the best smash player i know personaly mains Sheik. He's not as good as me at smash, and when I switch to Sheik or Fox I can beat his Sheik without difficulty, but when I'm Marth I lose most of the time.

 

[dude225]

i feel the same way as Razgriz. I main marth, and lose to my friends crappy sheik when i use marth, but when i switch to pika, fox, sheik, or ness, and i can OWN it.

Its just ridiculous how easy it is for Sheik to beat Marth. If u don't know, and u main marth, then try playing someone like pikachu, and u will realize what a counter is. Sheik counters marth.

 

[Plairnkk]

lmao@the last two posts.

did you actually read the thread? It's obvious sheik ***** Marth at a low level. But if you're losing to someone's Sheik who's not as good as you, then you simply aren't good anyway so it doesn't matter.

 

[tarheeljks]

In the denotative sense of the word Sheik does indeed serve as a counter to Marth. The problem is that the connotation of the word counter on these forums is not the same as its actual definition. M2K is right-- a counter is "something that is used to beat something else", but from what I have seen on these boards saying X counters Y implies that X has a significant advantage over Y.