Why is shiek a counter for marth?

[Mahjong]

Why is shiek a counter for marth when marth has longer range?

 

[The_Marth_Madness]

Marth is an easy character to combo. Sheik can combo consistently and easily.

Sheik has needles.

Tilt to Fair

Sheik has an easy time KOing Marth reguardless of how high his percentage is. It is harder for Marth to KO at high percentages.

Sheik is not a Marth counter, it's more of a favorable match in sheik's favor.

 

[AS Money]

down throw

 

[Tyson651]

along with around 12 other characters, they all get combo'd and pwned by any move that sheik has.

 

[demonsbane105]

I still say marth has the advantage over sheik. therefore i don't see sheik as a counter for marth, just one with the highest amount of advantages over him.

 

[Virgilijus]

Marth doesn't have the advantage over Sheik. While he does have range and can combo her nicely, she can combo him just as well. And, on top of that, she has a fair than can kill Marth at moderately low percentages and can be very easy to land after a ftilt. Also, she has needles which can edgeguard a Marth aiming to sweetspot as well as just completely messing up his rhythm.

Marth's range and aerials are devastating, but he is very weak against Sheik when he is above her, so his aerial game is limited. So, overall, Marth has a few advantages, but all of Sheik's either dampens them, over rides them, and are more numerous.

 

[Tyson651]

also sheik makes marths have to play in a patient defensive style, if marths dont, sheik's attacks easily juggle marth and chain grabs him to any aerial, also sheik's upB invicibility makes it nearly impossible for marth to play his main game, which is edgegaurding.

with edgegaurding out of marth's play, sheik has a real big advantage.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Not to mention that if you side step sheik's grab her lag will end as you're invincibility frames end making him an easier grab target. Marth is easily combo'd and chaingrabed by sheik so she has no trouble killing him. Marth loses combo ability against her at high percentages and with her invincible up B recovery she becomes very hard to kill. All sheik has to do is land a fair. Platforms do help Marth more than Sheik, but even then sheik still has more combo ability than Marth.

Most Marth players aren't used to Matches that are in their opponent's character's favor and they often make the situation worse. If you know how to handle sheik then the match becomes slightly more even, but you're still at a disadvantage.

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

Play a great sheik and the disadvantages for marth become very apparent.

Marth's range is countered by sheik's speed. Sheik has lagless attacks, whereas marth's fsmash against sheik is a setup for sheik.

+ what everyone else said.

 

[The_Marth_Madness]

I don't see the whole Up-b thing an advantage. Marth just need to hold the edge and wait for sheik. She can either try and hit marth with the fire and go above the edge, or hit him with t3r phires and grab the ledge.

If she chose going over, Marth just needs to smash her back off the edge, grab her back off, or tilt her back off. All this due to sheik's landing lag.

If she chose to try and get the ledge, marth just has to roll back on.

The way sheik's Up-b makes where she goes, and what happens very peridictable. At the begining sheik triple jumps, and at the end of that triple jump, she disappears in a fiery blaze. So you will know when to roll back on just in time to avoid the fire AND get up to knock her back off. Yes, I type very poorly when it comes to explaining my ideas

 

[WhiteOblv]

Sheik not a counter for marth i wish that were true. All of marths advantages are toned down against sheik, and sheik has her dthrow to fair and ftilt to fair.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I don't see the whole Up-b thing an advantage. Marth just need to hold the edge and wait for sheik. She can either try and hit marth with the fire and go above the edge, or hit him with t3r phires and grab the ledge.

If she chose going over, Marth just needs to smash her back off the edge, grab her back off, or tilt her back off. All this due to sheik's landing lag.

If she chose to try and get the ledge, marth just has to roll back on.

The way sheik's Up-b makes where she goes, and what happens very peridictable. At the begining sheik triple jumps, and at the end of that triple jump, she disappears in a fiery blaze. So you will know when to roll back on just in time to avoid the fire AND get up to knock her back off. Yes, I type very poorly when it comes to explaining my ideas

And what if she chooses to go up and drop back down to the ledge. You're roll will end right before she drops back down and grabs the edge. That roll will also put you too far away to hit her while she's falling to the ledge. Edgeguarding becomes a lot more complicated against Sheik and thus is considered an advantage for Sheik.

 

[pirkid]

It's just Shiek. She's pretty much good at everything, cept a good range, yet even that is screwed with her speed and needles.

Get a equal Shiek and Marth together, Shiek's moves are made to pwn him.

 

[Henry "Indiana" Jones Jr.]

And what if she chooses to go up and drop back down to the ledge. You're roll will end right before she drops back down and grabs the edge. That roll will also put you too far away to hit her while she's falling to the ledge. Edgeguarding becomes a lot more complicated against Sheik and thus is considered an advantage for Sheik.

no. all you need to do is hold the ledge. if shiek goes onto the stage you just get up (no roll) and fsmash. repeat till dead.





shiek is not a marth counter. it is even.

everything everyone has cited is possible against nearly all chars with shiek. its nothing special. marths just dont like it cuz they have to play different.

marths can also utilt ****. when shiek is in the air, and the marth knows what hes doing, its gonna be ****.

 

[Dark Sonic]

no. all you need to do is hold the ledge. if shiek goes onto the stage you just get up (no roll) and fsmash. repeat till dead.





shiek is not a marth counter. it is even.

everything everyone has cited is possible against nearly all chars with shiek. its nothing special. marths just dont like it cuz they have to play different.

marths can also utilt ****. when shiek is in the air, and the marth knows what hes doing, its gonna be ****.

You're forgetting that you'll be on the wrong side if you want to knock her off the edge. You'll knock her towards the middle with that foward smash. I admit that the match becomes more even at higher levels of play, but sheik's style of play is meant to get within the opponent's range very quickly. Marth's long range is one of his greatest options, but sheik negates that. I'm just saying that this matchup is much easier for the sheik than it is for the marth. If the two players are even in skill the sheik should win most of the time due to the advantages of her character. Anyone can beat a sheik provided that they are more skilled than the opponent, but the advantage sheik has over your character determines how much move skill you need to beat them. That's why sheik is a counter pick for marth. If a person can't handle your marth with their main they use a character that has an advantage over marth to try to overcome your greater amount of skill. As long as there isn't a major skill gap between you from the start the sheik should win the match.

 

[Brightside6382]

You're forgetting that you'll be on the wrong side if you want to knock her off the edge. You'll knock her towards the middle with that foward smash.

Shiek has an extremely laggy upB, if she teleports on the level Marth can simple waveland back on to F-smash or RDS. He will still have enough time to get to the other side of the char.

 

[Dark Sonic]

It's not that laggy. That ledgehop to waveland would take too long and you don't have time to do the smash. You may be able to turn around and grab her though. The point is that Sheik's recovery makes edgeguarding more complicated, while she has an easy time edgeguarding you.

 

[Nightblade]

I find when playing Sheik, you really have to change gears really quickly or it'll be a short match. Sheik will approach and attack differently than almost any character in the game, so if you can learn to be a half-second quicker than normal against a Sheik than you would say... a Peach/Fox/Falco/Falcon/etc you'll do much better.

 

[Randomg]

Watch ken vs kdj. You'll see sheik's advantages... she has guaranteed combos at basically all percentages, so a good player who knows what to do and when to do it tears marth apart. And kdj's take the hit strategy of edge guarding where he drops down with a b-air or n-air beats up marth even more than the ledge shield thing that the space furries do.

 

[RCD]

man i get beat by people who have sheik for like thirds aand i go head to head with there mains and the only reason they beat me is that they play sheik they've admitted it and then whats the purpose of using sheik vs marth for people who have sheik as 2ndary's

 

[RCD]

and all we have to do is watch matches of ken vs kdj and ask what does kdj's sheik do that ken cant do in order to beat it

 

[Scar]

Yeah I think that's a small problem with all the "advantage/disadvantage" debates -- your opinion of the matchup has a lot to do with how good your opponents are.

I used to think Samus was a Falcon counter because my buddy would **** with her... stupid sex kick. But then I realized that Falcon was ungodly fast and Samus... well... not so fast.

But if you think about it, especially if Marth misses a KO at 100-120%, Sheik might enjoy a really long stock whereas Marth + Fair = Marth -1 stock.

Which when subtracting Marth from both sides leaves Fair = -1 stock.

But that's not the point.

 

[Velox]

Nevermind...

The point of my overly-long post was going to be that Marth does good against Fox and Falco, contrary to popular belief, and that Marth vs. Sheik really isn't that bad, almost even actually. Against Falco, Marth has like 80 ways around lasers, can DI out of shine combos, and can **** with combos of his own. Against Fox, the only thing Fox has going for him are waveshine and u-throw u-air combos. Against Sheik, she can combo Marth pretty bad, her CC game is rough, and she has great edge guarding. Pretty much she takes you 0-60% in one combo then after that combo you are in a really bad position to recompose yourself so you end up getting hit a couple more times and then edgeguarded gg...

When people say that Marth can't do anything to Sheik what they really mean is that they're used to taking Fox and Falco to death from one grab basically and mostly what they fight are space animals.

 

[Razgriz]

Nevermind...

The point of my overly-long post was going to be that Marth does good against Fox and Falco, contrary to popular belief, and that Marth vs. Sheik really isn't that bad, almost even actually. Against Falco, Marth has like 80 ways around lasers, can DI out of shine combos, and can **** with combos of his own. Against Fox, the only thing Fox has going for him are waveshine and u-throw u-air combos. Against Sheik, she can combo Marth pretty bad, her CC game is rough, and she has great edge guarding. Pretty much she takes you 0-60% in one combo then after that combo you are in a really bad position to recompose yourself so you end up getting hit a couple more times and then edgeguarded gg...

When people say that Marth can't do anything to Sheik what they really mean is that they're used to taking Fox and Falco to death from one grab basically and mostly what they fight are space animals.

It's not a matter of debate that Marth does well against Fox and Falco. Just look at the character matchup chart. And Marth certainly has a significant disadvantage against Sheik, which dissapates at higher levels of play, because Marth's sidestep and rolling dodges are long-lasting relative to Sheik's rediculously fast attacks. Sheik recovers from her miss before Marth is done dodging, so she can just keep spamming the move. To properly fight a Sheik it is therefore important to have a good grasp of wavedashing and shorthopping to escape her attacks, and to shieldgrab at every given opportunity. Mind games that wear down Sheik's shield and goad her into attacking and missing are important in offense against her. If you don't have a firm grasp on DI you will literally be comboed strait to death. So a Marth needs very advanced technique to fight on even ground with a novice Sheik. A Sheik can get by with remedial strategy. Her dodges still work perfectly fine, and assuming the Marth doesn't know about shieldgrabbing she can attack blindly and recklessly without consequence. Even if both players are professionals, then Sheik still has several distinct advantages. She can sidestep and roll dodge on a regular basis; Marth can't. She can combo a lot more easily than Marth. Sheik has needles, which can force Marth into the offense because unlike the vast majority of ranged attacks in the game, Marth can't easily dodge/swat them away/catch them/duck underneath them/or hide from them on the edge of the course becasue Sheik will just jump and snipe him off the edge.

 

[Velox]

Yeah, I had like 2 extra paragraphs that explained why I'm comparing the Fox&Falco matches to Sheik, but like... I dunno what happened to them...

It was something along the lines of how most Marth players are just comparing Sheik to the matchups against space animals. People view space animals as "even", then they look at Sheik and decide that she is harder to defeat than space animals, so they instantly label her as "omg serious counter'. If people would look at space animals as what they are (slightly advantageous for Marth), then maybe people would only say Sheik is "slightly hard" because of the comparison to space animals... but maybe it's just me and the way I play...

*Edit: Nevermind, hell, I don't even know what I'm trying to say...

 

[Scar]

I know what you're trying to say. Marth pwns everything and the fact that he doesn't completely dominate Sheik is a shock to Marth players 'round the world.

So they overexaggerate the extent to which Sheik is a Marth counter.

I'm not sure I agree, but I see what you're saying.

 

[Velox]

I know what you're trying to say. Marth pwns everything and the fact that he doesn't completely dominate Sheik is a shock to Marth players 'round the world.

So they overexaggerate the extent to which Sheik is a Marth counter.

I'm not sure I agree, but I see what you're saying.

Lol, yeah, that's pretty good. I definately agree that Sheik has an advantage on Marth. I watch Marths that are better than they Sheiks they are playing get beaten all the time, I just find it funny that they totally freak out and say it's impossible before the match even starts. It's not that bad. You definately have to play different. That's the big thing.

It's just one of those things in smash that I laugh at. Kind of like Roy players (good ones). They pick up Roy and act like they're playing Pichu. And I recently discovered how funny the Roy boards are...

 

[Scar]

lol Glad I could help.

And yeah btw I think that most people in Smash in general are way too concerned with the tier listings.

Sure, Roy isn't that great, but seriously. There's never no chance for victory.

 

[Mahjong]

thats true
nice way to put. ^.^

 

[Shai Hulud]

Here's a quote from Ken from two years ago:

im sorry to say but~
marth doesn't beat sheik, get used to it.
pick up fox and **** the hoe instead

And as far as Marth and Sheik go, not much has changed. Marginally skilled Sheiks continue to beat skilled Marths. Sheik is just an easy character to use. The only proof you need for this is to look in the Sheik forums. There are all of 122 threads--a mere 6 more than the Pichu forums. And it's not because noone uses Sheik. A lot of people use Sheik. There's just very little to learn about her. It takes about 10 minutes to learn to play Sheik at a "**** Marth" skill level. Of course, because there's so little to learn about her, at the higher levels of play Sheiks don't make it very far unless they have very good mindgames.

Marth v Sheik is not unwinnable though. I think it's just people are used to Marth having an advantage over most characters and so they freak when it's an uphill battle. I play Captain Falcon a lot, and he has A LOT of uphill battles. You just work on those matches more and get used to it. Chances are that Sheik players aren't going to be practicing vs. Marth as much as Marth players practice vs. Sheik, so there are things you can do to help your chances, definitely.

And while Marth > Fox, Falco > Marth.

 

[Razgriz]

And while Marth > Fox, Falco > Marth.

You sure Falco>Marth?

The character matchup chart says Marth vs Falco is even....

 

[Tyson651]

falco > marth, i kno that as a fact, and as playing.

i even feel that falco gives marth a harder time than sheik, maybe its just me, but ya.

 

[Reese]

I am not a great marth, nor is my friend a great sheik. But during our matches, I find that I have to play a more grounded game consisting mostly of CC sheiks tilts into my own counterattacks. This helps negate the ftilt-fair rapage. Once I pop sheik in the air, I can combo her very well with fairs and whatnot. Off edge, there have been many times I have faired sheik away when she is about to fair me. Its a hard matchup, but not a counter from what I have experienced. You just have to change your playing style to be victorious.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Every time Sheik grabs, she gets at least 30%.
Sheik can smash DI out of most Marth combos easy.
If Marth tries to smash DI sheik's combos, there's usually a gay alternative for her.

 

[Shai Hulud]

You sure Falco>Marth?

The character matchup chart says Marth vs Falco is even....

I have some issues with that chart. For the most part it's a good reference, and I am grateful for it, but you should think of it only as a reference, and not as always perfectly accurate. I'd say it's 6 - 4 Falco; just a slight advantage. Maybe even on the platform stages. Also, there's no way CF vs Fox is 4 - 6. Fox destroys CF unless the CF is extremely good at reading techs. And CF vs Luigi is not 6 - 4. Luigi is a pretty hard matchup for CF and at BEST it's even, but I'd say 6 - 4 Luigi. Also, Marth vs CF is not 6 - 4. I think that's an even matchup, with a slight advantage going to either character depending on the stage (FD, PS, DL 6 - 4 CF, YS BF 6 - 4 Marth). I could go on but those are my biggest issues, considering I main CF and Marth.

 

[flaco]

Well I say that sheik was ment to destory marth I main marth and some sheiks give me hell lol serously just try your best not to panic becuase he using sheik just example don't let her get too close to you use marth range alot and use the air combos don't try to fsmash so much becuase you will get punish for it

 

[Razgriz]

I have some issues with that chart. For the most part it's a good reference, and I am grateful for it, but you should think of it only as a reference, and not as always perfectly accurate. I'd say it's 6 - 4 Falco; just a slight advantage. Maybe even on the platform stages. Also, there's no way CF vs Fox is 4 - 6. Fox destroys CF unless the CF is extremely good at reading techs. And CF vs Luigi is not 6 - 4. Luigi is a pretty hard matchup for CF and at BEST it's even, but I'd say 6 - 4 Luigi. Also, Marth vs CF is not 6 - 4. I think that's an even matchup, with a slight advantage going to either character depending on the stage (FD, PS, DL 6 - 4 CF, YS BF 6 - 4 Marth). I could go on but those are my biggest issues, considering I main CF and Marth.

I see... I'll stop being like a woman and believing everything I read so much.

 

[G@BE]

The only big problem with sheik is that most sheik players can keep a momentum and if you get the first stock taken off you are basically playing catch up the entire rest of the match. Marth players will tend to panic and always look for a f-smash so they can catch up. Just keep playing at the same pace.

Falco vs Marth is very even

Marth should infact own in that match but it is even.

 

[Tristan_win]

As a sheik user of ...decent skill I would have to agree that Sheik is one of the easier characters to use but that's not why I picked her up for my main. I choose her because I thought and still do that Sheik is the best character in the game. Now that being said I would have to agree that Sheik Forward Air is extremely devastating for Marths of any damage above 50% damage or so and worst yet most Sheik user could set and kill a Marth with it with there eyes close.

• 
  She does great against poor DIers
• Her God tilts that can easily combo/spam for extra damage can destroy poor DIers.
• She can also chain grab Marths who don't have decent experience in fighting her
  
  Sheik does a great job to remove Marth side step.
• Her down smash removes Marth side step
• With JC she can easily roll away or punish Marth for even trying before he can punish Sheik for missing with her grab.
  
  Her edgeguarding is incredibly good against Marths for many reasons.
• Needles can cancel Marth momentum and even push him back if you hit him with a full charged up burst.
• If the Sheik user is hanging onto the edge and the Marth is just above the edge sheik can quickly finish him with her Back Air which rivals Marths sword in range.
• If the Marth is below the edge then all the player needs to do is let go and do a Neutral Air that will always trade the hits or even nullify Marths up B.
• Worst yet if Marth just happens to get lucky and to land on the edge with his Up B a Sheik has the enjoyment and time to pick how she can punish him by either grabbing him or just Forward Air them towards the stage or if timed right away.

If that’s not enough proof to see that Marth is countered by Sheik then I really don't know what else to say.

 

[G@BE]

So what your saying noob sheik tactics will win vs any marth!?!?!

Thats not everything to look for when your trying to say this one character is better then the other.
Sheik does ruin marth yes but I mean Marth can do some pretty lame stuff to sheik as well.