Why is Infinite Dimensinoal Cape banned?

[John12346]

...what.

"Control Stick Back + Cstick Up > Control Stick Up/X + Cstick Up" for eight minutes is significantly easier than ramming Cstick up while holding B for 8 minutes...

 

[Judo777]

You have just lost all credibility.

Post a video of you doing IDC for eight minutes straight and you might have a leg to stand on. Now try doing it 6 times in a row. If you can then congrats you could win a single elimination 8 man bracket tournament.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't need to post a video, because I don't need to prove anything (unless you can somehow convince every major TO who doesn't have a planking rule that planking should be banned because it's broken in theory, like IDC). I'm content with knowing that I'm right.

You know the Wii-chuck method, right? The one that makes it so easy that a monkey could do it?

 

[Judo777]

I don't need to post a video, because I don't need to prove anything (unless you can somehow convince every major TO who doesn't have a planking rule that planking should be banned because it's broken in theory, like IDC). I'm content with knowing that I'm right.

You know the Wii-chuck method, right? The one that makes it so easy that a monkey could do it?

Yea and Inferno has told me using that method his record is 3 minutes..... and he practices it fairly regularly. And I don't have to convince anyone to do anything. If no TO's are willing to do anything about it, it makes my point no less valid.I wanna someone do it for just 8 minutes and I'll be impressed. But in a 64 man bracket single elimination ur gonna have to do it for 80 minutes. And since most tourneys are double elim you will have to take on at least another 16 to that. Planking is easy tho. Even if you screw up you cant be punished half the time.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Planking is easy sure, PERFECT PLANKING, on the other hand, isn't.

And you realize that if 3 minutes really IS the human limit, players can hit the opponent, IDC for 3 minutes, maybe camp or plank a bit, then IDC for 3 minutes again, right?

 

[Judo777]

Planking is easy sure, PERFECT PLANKING, on the other hand, isn't.

And you realize that if 3 minutes really IS the human limit, players can hit the opponent, IDC for 3 minutes, maybe camp or plank a bit, then IDC for 3 minutes again, right?

No perfect planking isn't easy. But PERFECT PLANKING isn't necessary. Because the people ur playing aren't robots either. They can't punish crap frame perfect. Neat they have a 1 frame window of leeway walking off and taking ur ledge to mess up ur timing..... cool. you have a TON of leeway. If you screw up and don't punish.... neat there is always next time. They screw up they lose a stock.

And that trick works except for one thing. IDC is easy as hell to punish when they mess up.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't know what idiots you are playing against, but I can stop non-perfect planking with all of my mains.

Erm.... IDC is not easy to punish unless you are playing on a small stage in certain match-ups.

 

[Orion*]

This

Compare the overall character depth between having MK banned and legal, how many people are entering tournaments, and possibly some other data, and from there a much more informed decision can be made on whether to ban MK or not.

Oh... I don't really care about that. Its just results are mad boring and I want an excuse to play other characters in bracket LOL

I don't need to post a video, because I don't need to prove anything. I'm content with knowing that I'm right.

You're mad wrong though lol.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

edit: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=12244433#post12244433

there ya go. hopefully someone will take the offer although i doubt it ^_^

The problem with this is that you can 3-stock most of the crowd at DS without planking anyways.

 

[Judo777]

I don't know what idiots you are playing against, but I can stop non-perfect planking with all of my mains.

Erm.... IDC is not easy to punish unless you are playing on a small stage in certain match-ups.

Kel was who i tested this with the most (he was marth at the time). What idiots have you successfully prevented planking for a significant gain?

And btw NO ONE perfect planks so theoretically...... you can stop everyones planking. So you are claiming to be unplankable right?

 

[t!MmY]

I would like to know how it came that this technique was banned... It sounded to me like it was banned solely on theory craft, which isn't right.

It was banned off of theory craft, without any real chance to see the impact it had on the game.

On March 20th, 2010 I attended a tournament (StS2) where it was written in the rules: "Meta Knight's Dimensional Cape Glitch is NOT banned, it is ENCOURAGED" by the TO who wished to see how such a ruling would affect the matches. Grand Finals was not won with Dimensional Cape stalling, nor was any other set in the tournament. Not a single game was timed-out with the DC. In fact, no one managed to do it for more than a few seconds.

This rule was repeated at the next tournament (StS3, May 8th 2010) with the same results. No timed-out matches, no excessive stalling, no one able to do it for any significant amount of time. I believe the TO has kept it in the rules for every tournament he has run since, and not a single game has shown any signs of IDC stalling.

It is my opinion that since there is already a "No Stalling" ruling in EVERY tournament you see, the one and only purpose of explicitly banning the Dimensional Cape Glitch is due to an irrational bias against Meta Knight (what has been come to be known as "Metaphobia").

 

[Grim Tuesday]

And btw NO ONE perfect planks so theoretically...... you can stop everyones planking. So you are claiming to be unplankable right?

Yes. Meta Knight, ROB and Jigglypuff can all stop it.

It was banned off of theory craft, without any real chance to see the impact it had on the game.

On March 20th, 2010 I attended a tournament (StS2) where it was written in the rules: "Meta Knight's Dimensional Cape Glitch is NOT banned, it is ENCOURAGED" by the TO who wished to see how such a ruling would affect the matches. Grand Finals was not won with Dimensional Cape stalling, nor was any other set in the tournament. Not a single game was timed-out with the DC. In fact, no one managed to do it for more than a few seconds.

This rule was repeated at the next tournament (StS3, May 8th 2010) with the same results. No timed-out matches, no excessive stalling, no one able to do it for any significant amount of time. I believe the TO has kept it in the rules for every tournament he has run since, and not a single game has shown any signs of IDC stalling.

There is a player in my state, Browny (Lucario and Sonic main). He can hold IDC for a very long time, like, several minutes. He doesn't even change his controller setting.

It is my opinion that since there is already a "No Stalling" ruling in EVERY tournament you see, the one and only purpose of explicitly banning the Dimensional Cape Glitch is due to an irrational bias against Meta Knight (what has been come to be known as "Metaphobia").

Our state doesn't have a dumb, subjective, pointless no stalling rule, thankyou very much.

 

[Gea]

else I could tech any vertical-knockback usmash in the game all the time.

I'd like to point out the flaw in this. That only works if the initial knockback is low enough to allow you to SDI and touch the ground. Try doing it at a higher %. I've been "crouch canceling" dash attacks, utilts, and usmashes since Brawl came out and only much later do people think it possibly useful (or possible to do on command)? Same thing with DIing out of things like Lucario's dair. I got heckled out of their boards like two years ago and now it's agreed upon that it is able to be done on reaction.

Just because *you* can't do something doesn't mean no one can. And if you intend on making claims about how things are or aren't possibly broken, I would hope that you understand how they work before posting.

I know this is a slight derailment from the tired argument about MK and stalling, but your claim is silly and wrong.

PS you can tech on platforms from midair doing this as well.

It is my opinion that since there is already a "No Stalling" ruling in EVERY tournament you see, the one and only purpose of explicitly banning the Dimensional Cape Glitch is due to an irrational bias against Meta Knight (what has been come to be known as "Metaphobia").

How long does it take before it becomes stalling? That's one of the huge arguments for allowing planking (besides there being no obvious way on getting rid of it without arbitrary rules). People have very different interpretations on what stalling is.

 

[t!MmY]

How long does it take before it becomes stalling? That's one of the huge arguments for allowing planking (besides there being no obvious way on getting rid of it without arbitrary rules). People have very different interpretations on what stalling is.

Alas, it's subjective. Then again, if someone is "stalling" long enough for a ref to be called over and they continue to the point where the ref tells them to knock it off, I'm pretty sure that is a big enough window of time for everyone to agree as "stalling".

But this can be applied to the Dimensional Cape. At what point is it stalling?

 

[Judo777]

Yes. Meta Knight, ROB and Jigglypuff can all stop it.



There is a player in my state, Browny (Lucario and Sonic main). He can hold IDC for a very long time, like, several minutes. He doesn't even change his controller setting.



Our state doesn't have a dumb, subjective, pointless no stalling rule, thankyou very much.

No the question was so YOU can't be planked? By anyone? M2K no one can plank you cause none of them can do it perfectly.

And ur buddy, several minutes isn't 80. I bet he can't do it for 80. And if you change ur controller settings how are you gonna get a lead consistently?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Alas, it's subjective. Then again, if someone is "stalling" long enough for a ref to be called over and they continue to the point where the ref tells them to knock it off, I'm pretty sure that is a big enough window of time for everyone to agree as "stalling".

But this can be applied to the Dimensional Cape. At what point is it stalling?

No, banning stalling is dumb for two reasons:

1. Stalling isn't ban-worthy.
2. It leads to biased decisions by refs.

No the question was so YOU can't be planked? By anyone? M2K no one can plank you cause none of them can do it perfectly.

And I answered that question... >_>

Meta Knight, ROB and Jigglypuff (my mains) all have simple ways of stopping planking.

And ur buddy, several minutes isn't 80. I bet he can't do it for 80. And if you change ur controller settings how are you gonna get a lead consistently?

They have an 80-minute time limit in your area, do they? Being able to do it for several minutes is enough to be broken, it doesn't have to be an infinite stall.

And I don't know how changing Upon the D-Pad to Up Smash would affect anyone's playing ability >_>

 

[Gea]

But this can be applied to the Dimensional Cape. At what point is it stalling?

That was my point. There are times when it is clearly obvious the goal of doing something is stalling, but it is still legal for one reason or another. Such as Wario's bike trick on rainbow cruise. That clearly falls under the whole "making conflict impossible" for chunks at a time. The common comparison is Pokemon Stadium where transformations create gameplay scenarios that many players wait out, but the difference in the latter is obviously that someone is able, even if unwilling, to continue the fight.

Really, the Brawl community has already decided that on the whole it values the current metagame where running the clock is encouraged. With that comes the consequence that strategies such as planking (or if not outright planking, "air planking") are increasingly common. So be it. Metaknight is not the only character doing these things, he just happens to be the best at it ontop of already being the best character in the game.

Really, it says more about Brawl than the community if the game has these issues so frequently. And no, timeouts are not negative by default, but when a commanding strategy to win sets and matches that could not be won otherwise falls down to this frequently, I have to shake my head.

So really, IDC's legality is trivial. There are already quite viable options that put a player in the advantage a majority of the match's duration. The preemptive ban just allows for a clean slate of this issue rather than devising strategies around using the move offensively (or otherwise, but not for stalling purposes) then have the community wholly split on the issue of it's base worth and how to police the possible (and probably eventual) abuse.

No, banning stalling is dumb for two reasons:

1. Stalling isn't ban-worthy.

Stalling is making the game unplayable while running the time. Equating planking with stalling is a different discussion. How is making the game literally unplayable not ban-worthy?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Stalling, as a whole, isn't ban-worthy, as it isn't uncompetitive or depth-neutering.

What is ban-worthy though are broken stalling techniques like IDC. That's why we shouldn't just put a random, subjective ban on the act of stalling in itself, only on the individual methods of stalling that are an issue.

 

[WindMajor]

That post is really misleading....

Try using "overly-defensive" instead of just stalling because it's contradicting.

Being overly-defensive isn't bad.
Stalling is clearly bad.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Stalling is being overly-defensive.

 

[Gea]

Stalling is being overly-defensive.

v. stalled, stall·ing, stalls
v.tr.
1. To put or lodge in a stall.
2. To maintain in a stall for fattening: to stall cattle.
3. To halt the motion or progress of; bring to a standstill.
4. To cause (a motor or motor vehicle) accidentally to stop running.
5. To cause (an aircraft) to go into a stall.
v.intr.
1. To live or be lodged in a stall. Used of an animal.
2. To stick fast in mud or snow.
3. To come to a standstill: Negotiations stalled.
4. To stop running as a result of mechanical failure: The car stalled on the freeway.
5. To lose forward flying speed, causing a stall. Used of an aircraft.

It means stopping the match totally, in this case for periods of time. Doing IDC for 2 minutes would be stalling for two minutes. "Air planking" for two minutes is not stalling, as the other player is able to approach and continue the match by damaging the opponent.

 

[Kewkky]

I'd like to point out the flaw in this. That only works if the initial knockback is low enough to allow you to SDI and touch the ground. Try doing it at a higher %. I've been "crouch canceling" dash attacks, utilts, and usmashes since Brawl came out and only much later do people think it possibly useful (or possible to do on command)? Same thing with DIing out of things like Lucario's dair. I got heckled out of their boards like two years ago and now it's agreed upon that it is able to be done on reaction.

You can SDI any attack at any given time. I saw a video like this one that got Jiggs to 999%, and Jiggs still teched it, but I could only find that one. if you want to, you can look for it. I'm not because I couldn't care less whether or not you believed me in this regard, since this thread is about IDC anyway.

No, banning stalling is dumb for two reasons:

1. Stalling isn't ban-worthy.
2. It leads to biased decisions by refs.

So you're saying that a DDD who gets a grab on you on a stage that has a permanent wall and keeps dthrowing against the wall until the timer runs out isn't banworthy? And what's so bad about biased decisions by refs? As far as I know each region's ruleset is biased according to their respective TOs. It's up to the player to play under the TO's biased decisions, or to not go to the tourney if they disagree with the ruleset... Or are you saying that there's an unbiased ruleset floating around that the entire community is unaware of? Remember that perfectly non-biased answers are only those that are absolute.

If stalling isn't ban-worthy then i guess we'd better add those infamous stalling stages into our tourney standard, right? New Pork City, Hyrule Temple, Luigi's Mansion (circle camping and living forever), etc? I mean, they were banned because of their stalling potential, and clearly doing something like (for example) using Sonic to run around all day isn't broken from your point of view.

Meta Knight, ROB and Jigglypuff (my mains) all have simple ways of stopping planking.

Can you explain what ROB and Jiggs can do to stop planking?

 

[Gea]

So you're saying that a DDD who gets a grab on youon a stage that has a wall and keeps dthrowing against the wall until the timer runs out isn't banworthy?

I was going to actually bring this up, but I figured it would just be argued "don't get grabbed" or "play a character who can't be chainthrown."

And what's so bad about biased decisions by refs? As far as I know each region's ruleset is biased according to their respective TOs.

Inconsistency. Especially at large events. It's straight up BS that one player would be disqualified for what another player is told is okay.

 

[Kewkky]

I was going to actually bring this up, but I figured it would just be argued "don't get grabbed" or "play a character who can't be chainthrown."

I don't think you understand just how straight-out impossible it is to play the "don't get grabbed" card in Brawl. If it was easy or if anyone could pul it off, would we see IC's chaingrabbing whoever they want? Wouldn't lower tiers have a better MU against Falco/DDD/IC's/Snake/Kirby/whoever else has a chaingrab or grab combo? You're essentially saying "it doesn't matter if this character has an infinite on almost the whole cast, just don't let him start it, or choose a character that can't be infinited and you'll do fine". Can you see what's wrong with that statement?

Inconsistency. Especially at large events. It's straight up BS that one player would be disqualified for what another player is told is okay.

There is nothing wrong with having different rulesets in different events. If a region prefers X ruleset and another prefers Y, and players of either region are going to a national with Z ruleset, it's their own fault if they didn't pay attention to the rules. You can't blame the TO's for doing THEIR tourneys THEIR way, you either choose to go, or choose not to go.

 

[Gea]

Can you see what's wrong with that statement?

Can I? Sure. But what's the point of arguing that when the other person may firmly believe otherwise? In this case I just think there are better examples of stalling (IDC) where it doesn't take the other player making a mistake or a matchup for the stalling to occur.

There is nothing wrong with having different rulesets in different events.

I never mentioned different events. It really isn't feasible to assign one judge out there to watch all matches, and all it takes is for a Wii to get reset or something similar and viola, infinite replays aren't enabled. By the time the judge gets there, no evidence. Multiple judges could make different rulings. Last time I can remember a major match being judge ruled (M2K vs Larry) not all the judges had the same conclusion. It just doesn't promote fairness to have judge ruled decisions at large events.

By the way, if that jiggz video at 999% was lucas' usmash it's because of the multiple hitboxes, one of which has either really low knockback or set knockback that is supposed to suck you into the main hit. Lucas mains can attest to this strange hitbox. Just saying.

 

[Judo777]

Stalling, as a whole, isn't ban-worthy, as it isn't uncompetitive or depth-neutering.

What is ban-worthy though are broken stalling techniques like IDC. That's why we shouldn't just put a random, subjective ban on the act of stalling in itself, only on the individual methods of stalling that are an issue.

No 80 minutes is just the amount for like a 6 man bracket to win it.

Alrighty if that is the case you could go challenge either M2K, Tyrant, LeeMartin, or DMG to MM where their goal is to get a percent lead, plank the entire game and you can assure me you would win?

Why is IDC stalling broken if its only purpose is to maintain a non-broken tactic in this case stalling. Why ban IDC if stalling isn't bad all it does is let you stall.

 

[t!MmY]

Really, it says more about Brawl than the community if the game has these issues so frequently.

Actually, that's backward. It's not the game that promotes time-out tactics, it's the rules (i.e. the creation and acceptance of those rules by the community).

What's funny is how often I hear complaints about 'camping/stalling/gaying' but none about the rules that promote such actions.

 

[Gea]

It's been brought up before, but most people come to the conclusion that the timer needs to be longer, not shorter to discourage these tactics. Brawl already takes long enough as it is.

 

[Kewkky]

Can I? Sure. But what's the point of arguing that when the other person may firmly believe otherwise? In this case I just think there are better examples of stalling (IDC) where it doesn't take the other player making a mistake or a matchup for the stalling to occur.

It doesn't matter how you get to start the stalling process, the fact is that it's still stalling. One of the reasons why stalling is so bad is because it prolongs tournaments. Trust me when I say that there's people who run the timer for their wins, if the stalling rules weren't in effect then I'm quite sure EVEN MORE people would do the same, and the tourneys would just last forever. Do you know how broken infinites would be? Repeating them over and over until the full 8 minutes are up? Nationals drag on for 2-3 days already, that's a full weekend!

I never mentioned different events. It really isn't feasible to assign one judge out there to watch all matches, and all it takes is for a Wii to get reset or something similar and viola, infinite replays aren't enabled. By the time the judge gets there, no evidence. Multiple judges could make different rulings. Last time I can remember a major match being judge ruled (M2K vs Larry) not all the judges had the same conclusion. It just doesn't promote fairness to have judge ruled decisions at large events.

Exactly why we have the stalling rule. We already banned the stages that can be used for stalling, and the rule covers infinites in case opponents want to go up to 999%. We also have a timer set to avoid stand-stills, which is stalling as well. If your opponent is infiniting you and goes above 300% (which is the % established by the rule), you pause the game right there then call a judge over, and voila! Successful victory! No stalling problems left in this game (excluding the controversial planking).

By the way, if that jiggz video at 999% was lucas' usmash it's because of the multiple hitboxes, one of which has either really low knockback or set knockback that is supposed to suck you into the main hit. Lucas mains can attest to this strange hitbox. Just saying.

It doesn't matter, sheesh. The point of the video was to show an example of something else extremely technically difficult could do, then say that I could do it consistently if anyone else could do perfect planking forever. I don't even know why you nitpicked that part, your argument doesn't get stronger if you shoot down my examples, you're supposed to shoot down the point I make.

It's been brought up before, but most people come to the conclusion that the timer needs to be longer, not shorter to discourage these tactics. Brawl already takes long enough as it is.

Shutting down the stalling rule makes it worse.


Oh, and comparing brawl's definition of stalling and the dictionary's definition doesn't work, because we already have a solid definition: the act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so as to make the game unplayable, like DDD doing an infinite against any wall and not stopping until it's impossible for the opponent to catch up before the timer runs out... That's making the game unplayable, your opponent can NOT do anything about it and he is forced to sit it out. I'll simplify and say that it's any and all means to stop the flow of a match and keeping it stopped until the timer runs out, pretty vague but I hope you get the idea behind it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

*Sigh*, too many dumb posts from people who didn't understand what I was saying too reply to. This is a dumb thread anyway that will never achieve anything.

Ta-ta.

 

[Ghostbone]

lol you guys.

Grim wasn't saying that we should let stalling run rampant, he was saying we should individually ban all the stalling techniques that are broken, instead of having a rule that everyone has different interpretations of. (especially when we refer to it as stalling which can mean many things..)

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Your opening arguement said "I haven't seem anyone do it for more then 2 seconds" if thats the case then the people you seen obviously don't know how to do it to the extent which makes it ban worthy. Regardless what you seen its still a tactic that you can use to stall the game COMPLETELY

 

[Kewkky]

Well Grim should've been clearer then.

 

[WindMajor]

Which was my point.

Grim said that stalling isn't broken.
Grim said that stalling tactics should be banned because they're broken.

There was definitely a contradiction there that wasn't clear to me, so I told him about it..

 

[Gea]

Stuff

Let's keep this brief:
- Not all stalling is banned. Case in point Wario's bike on rainbow cruise. There are a few other examples, but it's all debatable why is why I avoided the D3 topic. Those can be debated. IDC? What is there to debate besides "I haven't seen anyone do that to win yet."
- Dictionary definition fits exactly what you described back to me. It puts the match at a standstill. Smashers didn't invent a new word to use in the context of stalling a match.
- You are assuming I am for IDC not being banned? Or that I don't want a stalling rule?
- Yeah, the problem is pretty much as said before. There are things that people disagree on stalling. A match is at a standstill for so many frames when you grab the ledge. Is grabbing the ledge stalling?

 

[Ghostbone]

Well the thing about stalling is, not everything that can stall a match is broken, and there are way too many things that can stall a match to ban all of them.

And our current rule is bad because one judge could view something as stalling that another doesn't, so one person in a tourney could be DQ'd while another person doing the exact same thing isn't, and that's definitely not fair.
And what exactly is making the game unplayable, and how do you know that's the intention of the tactic? And what is wrong with running the timer out if it's not being done with a broken tactic?
For example, is MK sitting below the floor on Halberd where his opponent cannot hit him stalling if the MK's doing it because the other section of the stage is much more favorable for him?

Stalling tactics aren't broken because they're stalling (which is hard to properly define anyway, e.g. is using homing attack under FD stalling?), but because they make matches un-winnable.

 

[Browny]

Yes. Meta Knight, ROB and Jigglypuff can all stop it.



There is a player in my state, Browny (Lucario and Sonic main). He can hold IDC for a very long time, like, several minutes. He doesn't even change his controller setting.



Our state doesn't have a dumb, subjective, pointless no stalling rule, thankyou very much.

Hi I namesearch

Lots of people can hold IDC for a long time its really not that hard. What I think people should realise though is the potential for IDC AND planking as a combo. Holding IDC for like, 30+ seconds starts to hurt and you cant keep it up forever but if you take a break every 30 seconds, go to the ledge and scrooge a few times, getting only like 5 ledgegrabs in 30 seconds before doing the IDC again, you could probably remain untouchable an entire match.

also im no longer in SA

 

[Orion*]

Yes. Meta Knight, ROB and Jigglypuff can all stop it.

Our state doesn't have a dumb, subjective, pointless no stalling rule, thankyou very much.

Just because you disagree with something doesn't make it dumb.

and LOL at jiggs or ROB stopping me from planking. Especially jiggs. How is she even supposed to attack mk from above... >_> 2 frame uair keeps her out HARD and her FF speed is crap.

MK at least takes a hard read. ROB maybe could like shoot something but lol if you have half a brain you could probably get around this.

Stalling is being overly-defensive.

False.

 

[Bloodcross]

I can't take this thread seriously if this ***** can't even spell "Dimensional".

 

[Judo777]

Hi I namesearch

Lots of people can hold IDC for a long time its really not that hard. What I think people should realise though is the potential for IDC AND planking as a combo. Holding IDC for like, 30+ seconds starts to hurt and you cant keep it up forever but if you take a break every 30 seconds, go to the ledge and scrooge a few times, getting only like 5 ledgegrabs in 30 seconds before doing the IDC again, you could probably remain untouchable an entire match.

also im no longer in SA

Thats a fair claim. However this leads to the concept that in fact planking is the part of this strategy that is broken much less so than the IDC itself. IDC is powerful, don't get me wrong, but as you said doing it for more than about 30 seconds starts to get pretty hard. Planking without IDC for an entire match is very possible, but IDC without planking doesn't seem feaible at all.

So I still claim that planking is easier and more effective at human levels than IDC. And only barely less effective at superhuman levels.