Why is fox a higher tier than falco?

[Keblerelf]

Fox kills better than falco.

 

[OverLord]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QElifBiVv60

01:18

 

[LushLahti]

Tier lists are useless. Like the Bible, the tier list was made when someone was bored.

 

[mastermoo420]

depending on how you hit the dair, many times it is untechable.
Falco's dair killing early is a legitimate statement to make.

Yeah, and depending on how you decide to approach a Falcon Punch, you'll be able to dodge it sometimes. And Falco's d-air does not really kill too early; at early percentages, you'll only drop a bit before you have a chance to recover, and you'll probably be able to tech one/a few of the d-airs before you fully recover back onto the stage. But, I did misread "early %" as "0%" (dunno how) so I am kinda off. Stages like YI will kill earlier but stages like FD or FoD or stuff with better ledges/walls make it easier as well. WHERE AM I GOING WITH THIS?

@LushLahti: Try not to say anything that will directly offend someone; it's kind of ignorant if you say something like that. I'll respect you being an atheist or agnostic or something, but if you take the "LOL I AM AN ATHEIST, LOOK AT ME REBEL!" stance, you just kinda ruin everything for yourself.

And the tier list was pretty well made, given the time and the amount of information that there was; you're kinda being disrespectful to the people who made it, too. It pretty accurately represents things now (besides the low tiers due to the fact there's really little data on them) although the top/high tiers are pretty equal. Besides, the point of tiers was to point out that two people, who were exactly the same at everything, would result in the higher tier winner AND ONLY IF THEY WERE EXACTLY EQUAL.

 

[PK Webb]

fox just needs to work harder for his kills in that matchup......but overall vs the rest of the cast i think fox usually does better than falco thats y he is higher.......but what do i no

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

i'm just saying falcos lasers are easier to deal with than a campy fox. falco's are better.

 

[XAQ]

well i completely agree that falco takes a little less practice to get good with

 

[JPOBS]

Lol falco isn't better than fox, just throw him off the stage.

Also they are even but seriously falcos recovery isn't all that great.

I want to discuss this for a second cuz everyone blows this WAY out of proportion.

I refuse to accept the notion that fox's recovery is THAT much better than falco's. The 2 main differences are pure distance, Firefox's hitbox on startup and i want to address both.

Firefox's hitbox i dont even see as being a big upgrade for two reasons, one being the fact that the hitbox doesnt come out till about half-way through the animation, and second, no competent edgeguarder is going to get hit by it. Most top tier chars have moves that eat clear through it anyway so i dont buy it.

As for distance, honestly, neither falco nor fox should be recovering vs a competent opponent on the basis of "fox's recovery goes longer". What i mean is, neither recovery is in and of itself so steller that it'll save you, you have to use one of the many mixups they both have to recover. But in situations where you have to use the firebird/firefox in a manner where the distance would ACTUALLY matter, no competent opponent should be letting you back on (as fox) anyway because at that point, the angles become easily predictable. thats my take on it anyway.

 

[XAQ]

i've seen many foxes have a hard time shinespking falco because his side b will meteor smash.

 

[mastermoo420]

@JPOBS: FF from below on, say, FD (because I love FD). Falco doesn't have many, if any, options. His phantasm will get him nowhere and his Fire Bird is pretty crappy. And, in the case of a Fox v. Falco match-up (this IS a why is Fox > Falco thread anyways), the no-startup-animation-damage thing is crucial when shine-spiking. And the extra distance makes for more mixing up; you could end up just up-B'ing over their heads and recovering like that. :D

@XAQ: If they're going to side-B, Fox can just shine them out of it. Another case of a good up-B here - when meteor smash'd Fox has a greater window of error because the Fire Fox can go farther.

 

[XAQ]

yeah but if fox has alot of damage he'll die

 

[OverLord]

Fox recovery is better than Falco, you are underestimating the options that Fox has compared to Falco.. Falco is kinda dead everytime he's off stage.. you can't say that of Fox.. (unless M2K is playing)

 

[Rubyiris]

I think LumpyCPU was the one that said in the Fox thread that the Falco/Fox match-up is 60-60. It sounds about right. But Falcon definitely does not counter Falco. Neither does Jiggz unless you're a low level player who can't DI the up-throw. Sheik, I haven't seen much on. Pretty sure you can combo pretty easily since she's a FFer.

And Falco may be a "lower tier," but he's still second. The top, like, four are pretty much even anyways for the most part.

you realize that it's sometimes hard to react to this at low % correct? You have to be inputting a L/R direction before she uthrows you, and her uthrow has no startup lag.

even top-tier players get hit by uthrow rest.

 

[Kason Birdman]

uthrow rest IS hard to react to in a lot of cases.
I agree what JPOBS had said about fox's recovery but technically, everyone would be right to say fox has better recovery than falco.



fox is better than falco.

 

[mastermoo420]

you realize that it's sometimes hard to react to this at low % correct? You have to be inputting a L/R direction before she uthrows you, and her uthrow has no startup lag.

even top-tier players get hit by uthrow rest.

Yeah, but once you get hit once by it, you should be more wary about it. They might get hit once by it, but they won't get consistently slayer'd.

 

[XAQ]

if you're feeling wary of uthrow+rest just camp and do some standing or SHLs (SHLs won't hit jiggs if she's on the ground)

 

[Druggedfox]

I'm surprised this is still open, considering the question's been answered?

Pure and simple: fox has better matchups. I'm sure I'm repeating several posters, but that's simply the case. While I have my personal opinions on falco's matchups (I highly regard falco in that respect), the fact that falco vs peach, marth, jiggs, and even nowadays sheik is debatable shows you falco's situation compared to fox's. The only matchups people even debate being even for fox (much less a disadvantage) are falco and marth. Even then, once again, people often argue jiggs, peach>falco, not even. Just the debatable nature of it all more or less implies that fox>falco.

 

[XAQ]

look I know i've made too many posts but not everything I have said is "wrong".

 

[Kason Birdman]

I'm surprised this is still open, considering the question's been answered?

Pure and simple: fox has better matchups. I'm sure I'm repeating several posters, but that's simply the case. While I have my personal opinions on falco's matchups (I highly regard falco in that respect), the fact that falco vs peach, marth, jiggs, and even nowadays sheik is debatable shows you falco's situation compared to fox's. The only matchups people even debate being even for fox (much less a disadvantage) are falco and marth. Even then, once again, people often argue jiggs, peach>falco, not even. Just the debatable nature of it all more or less implies that fox>falco.

you in backroom?

thats hella sexy

 

[Druggedfox]

look I know i've made too many posts but not everything I have said is "wrong".

I'm not trying to offend you, or anyone; I simply answered the question, and felt that the question had already been answered several times.

@Kason, =D =D

 

[unknown522]

though I agree with this thread. I disagree with the reasons in the OP.

edit:

Falcon counters Falco? Has hell frozen over?

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

 

[#HBC | Mac]

I want to discuss this for a second cuz everyone blows this WAY out of proportion.

I refuse to accept the notion that fox's recovery is THAT much better than falco's. The 2 main differences are pure distance, Firefox's hitbox on startup and i want to address both.

Firefox's hitbox i dont even see as being a big upgrade for two reasons, one being the fact that the hitbox doesnt come out till about half-way through the animation, and second, no competent edgeguarder is going to get hit by it. Most top tier chars have moves that eat clear through it anyway so i dont buy it.

As for distance, honestly, neither falco nor fox should be recovering vs a competent opponent on the basis of "fox's recovery goes longer". What i mean is, neither recovery is in and of itself so steller that it'll save you, you have to use one of the many mixups they both have to recover. But in situations where you have to use the firebird/firefox in a manner where the distance would ACTUALLY matter, no competent opponent should be letting you back on (as fox) anyway because at that point, the angles become easily predictable. thats my take on it anyway.

partly true

there are situations where yu need to go to a spot thats far enough away from the ledge so that a sheik/marth/jiggs/pikachu etc thats coming out to get you can't reach. Some of these distances, only fox can recover from there

 

[TheGoat]

I'm surprised this is still open, considering the question's been answered?

Pure and simple: fox has better matchups. I'm sure I'm repeating several posters, but that's simply the case. While I have my personal opinions on falco's matchups (I highly regard falco in that respect), the fact that falco vs peach, marth, jiggs, and even nowadays sheik is debatable shows you falco's situation compared to fox's. The only matchups people even debate being even for fox (much less a disadvantage) are falco and marth. Even then, once again, people often argue jiggs, peach>falco, not even. Just the debatable nature of it all more or less implies that fox>falco.

Thank you.

Also, tier lists are based off of tournament results-you see fox place first place a lot more often than you see falco doing so.

 

[unknown522]

Thank you.

Also, tier lists are based off of tournament results-you see fox place first place a lot more often than you see falco doing so.

actually, that's not true. Including local/regional tourneys, there are only 3-5 different areas where fox takes 1st place.

Fox also hasn't won a national since 2007?

Not only that, but falco places higher than fox at all the nationals now.

 

[MarsFool!]

C falcon has outplaced many a good fox recently as well.

 

[cjugs]

also falco d-air can kill fox at low %, whereas fox's d-air (or shine-spike) can't KO until over 70%

Shine spike will gimp at 0.
Falco has dair shine dair shine dair shine shine uptilt shine bair edguard and lots of people know how to combo as falco but a good fox will CG falco and he has more attacks to rely on than just shine and dair he has more options fox beats falco in my opinion,

 

[TheGoat]

actually, that's not true. Including local/regional tourneys, there are only 3-5 different areas where fox takes 1st place.

Fox also hasn't won a national since 2007?

Not only that, but falco places higher than fox at all the nationals now.

Well then, my mistake. I guess I saw apex's results and saw the other top tiers placing higher than falco http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283374 I also did see this post http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267771

Also do you have any links to national tournaments where falco places higher? I'd appreciate it.

It just seems falco has a lot of bad matchups where fox seems to do better, like it seems falco often gets gimped by marth, and a lot of people switch over to fox when fighting jigglypuff, and it seems falco gets a good beating by peach as well.

 

[voorhese]

also falco d-air can kill fox at low %, whereas fox's d-air (or shine-spike) can't KO until over 70%

are you trollin?

you can kill falco with just a shine spike at 0%

 

[JPOBS]

@JPOBS: FF from below on, say, FD (because I love FD). Falco doesn't have many, if any, options. His phantasm will get him nowhere and his Fire Bird is pretty crappy. And, in the case of a Fox v. Falco match-up (this IS a why is Fox > Falco thread anyways), the no-startup-animation-damage thing is crucial when shine-spiking. And the extra distance makes for more mixing up; you could end up just up-B'ing over their heads and recovering like that. :D

If fox drops below the ledge on purpose and uses the firefox, he should die all the same as falco should vs any competent edgeguarder using a viable char

Fox recovery is better than Falco, you are underestimating the options that Fox has compared to Falco.. Falco is kinda dead everytime he's off stage.. you can't say that of Fox.. (unless M2K is playing)

Fox doesnt have any options falco doesnt, other than pure distance.And if fox is knocked off the stage far enough that his extra distance would even be a factor, then that means his recovery would likely need to be at predictable angles.
people need to stop being bad at edgeguarding.

 

[Iron Dragon]

actually, that's not true. Including local/regional tourneys, there are only 3-5 different areas where fox takes 1st place.

Fox also hasn't won a national since 2007?

Not only that, but falco places higher than fox at all the nationals now.

I don't like the nationals comparison because often times the good Falcos and Foxes who place high don't face the same people.

Case in point: Jman 7th at Apex, lost to M2K and Axe,
DrPP 4th at Apex lost to Jman and Armada.

I actually think Jman has the same(if not better) of a chance of beating armada than PP, and if you ask me PP would lose to M2K and Axe as well(just my opinion).

To this general thread: Fox is the best in the game, thats why hes higher/highest on the tier list. Simple enough.

 

[Rubyiris]

anyone who argues peach beats falco needs to stop living in the past.

 

[G.L.]

falco peach is defenetly even or in falcos favor. especially on yoshis or pokemon stadium

 

[XAQ]

thats true because she can't chaingrab him and he can spam his lasers

 

[SSSnake]

well if falco > peach, than he has no bad MUs. the would make him the best. i agree with this thread btw.

 

[Mind Trick]

anyone who argues peach beats falco needs to stop living in the past.

get back to me when armada powershields your dair into a dsmash trolololol

 

[DuckPimp]

also falco d-air can kill fox at low %, whereas fox's d-air (or shine-spike) can't KO until over 70%

shine spikes can definitely happen at under 70%.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

falcon a falco counter? LOL

 

[XAQ]

sorry i kind of messed up because I saw some matches with isai(best falcon ever) before looking at the tier list

 

[mastermoo420]

I don't like the nationals comparison because often times the good Falcos and Foxes who place high don't face the same people.

Also, the comparison of who was "first" is pretty bad. If Mango got first as Jiggs in every tourney that existed and everyone else who got top 5 in the tournaments were Fox only, it would be evident that Foxes, as a whole, ranked better than any other character.

But it should be remembered that the tier list doesn't have anything to do with how good a character is subjectively. The tier list is not based just on tournament results (tournament results of the quite distant past, mind you, except for that one "new tier list") but also on their match-ups against EVERYONE on the cast.

If, for example, Pichu was a 90-10 counter against Fox yet had a 10-90 disadvantage in every other match-up, Pichu would remain bottom tier because it has a lot of bad match-ups overall. If you were to argue as the OP is arguing, you could say "why is Fox a higher tier than Pichu?"

yah? ami doin rite?

 

[unknown522]

Well then, my mistake. I guess I saw apex's results and saw the other top tiers placing higher than falco http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283374 I also did see this post http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267771

Also do you have any links to national tournaments where falco places higher? I'd appreciate it.

It just seems falco has a lot of bad matchups where fox seems to do better, like it seems falco often gets gimped by marth, and a lot of people switch over to fox when fighting jigglypuff, and it seems falco gets a good beating by peach as well.

aww ****. You're using m2k as an example. Well, since mango places higher than all foxes with falco, there's my point.