Why Ike is *not* as bad as many people think.

[cutter]

One day I got bored of playing G&W and MK and decided to give Ike a try. No one around my area had touched him since like April when he was a noob-magnet and then died out once people were like "ZOMG 2MUCH LAG".

After messing around with Ike, he actually has a decent amount of stuff going for him!

- His jab. Oh my ****ing god. This is EASILY Ike's best move and it's the best jab in the game. This one of Ike's few saving graces. It's his quintissential move. His jab racks up damage (16% in one go), kills when it's fresh, replenishes Ike's stale moves, and it spaces so well. The second hit has quite deceptive range. All that for an attack that hits on frame 3??? Yes please.
- Tilts... mainly his Ftilt. This is Ike's best kill move; it has a tad bit of startup time but the huge range and power really make up for that IMO. Plus it can be angled which is another big plus. It hits so hard; MUCH harder than most character's smashes! Utilt is also good for a good vertical kill move on the inital frames and has a bit of a lingering hitbox at the end.
- Aerials; while they're not ridiculous as MK's and G&W's, they're still good because of the massive disjointed hitboxes. Nair autocancels and Bair comes out surprisingly fast. And despite the startup time, Fair outranges G&W's turtle which is really saying something considering G&W's turtle is arguably the best move in the entire game.
- Power. Pretty obvious here. Also really worth noting; Ike's attacks in general have high raw damage output which will let him kill lightweights after just a handful of moves.

And now the bad:
- Specials. I don't see any use for neutral B at all. Too much startup time, mediocre knockback for an uncharged hit, and absolutely ABYSMAL cooldown at the end. Super armor frames are nice but there are very few of them on the sword thrusting animation. It's not entirely useless though because of it's usefulness on someone who broke their shield. lol. As for his other specials, Up B is amazing for recovery (more on this later) but can be punished pretty easily if done on the field as an attack. Down B comes out frame 10 which is pretty slow for a Counter move. It seems like another situational move to me. Side B is Ike's best special for recovery, mindgames, usability in some ATs, and for the occasional time to rack up a quick 10 damage here and there.
- Throws. No throws really seem to pop out as really useful. He doesn't have a throw that really sticks out as great like DDD's Dthrow/Bthrow, Falco's Dthrow fun, G&W's Dthrow, and Ness's Bthrow.
- No projectile and struggling against them. Ike is forced to approach with his limited options and he faces uphill battles against projectiles like space animals' lasers, Pit's arrows, etc. A lack of projectiles also hurts edgeguarding pretty badly.

As for Ike's recovery, it can be really good, or really really bad. If Ike is at a 30-60 degree angle from the ledge he's as good as dead. On the other hand, if Ike is able to get directly UNDER the ledge, he gets to come back pretty much every time. Aether gives Ike an uncontestable recovery thanks to the SA and the sword clearing out edgeguarders. Having to recover with Side B isn't great. It seems like in my few experiences it's best to charge it up and quickly shoot for the ledge or just go right on the stage if that isn't possible. Side B recovering is doable, but obviously go for Up B if that's the viable choice. In a nutshell, Ike's recovery is a huge double-edged sword.

Why did I type this up? I wanted to clear the stereotype of Ike considered as a crappy character. If the SBR places Ike in Mid Tier, they obviously see what I'm probably seeing with Ike too. I don't main or second Ike, but after playing with him for some time, he seems to fit the mold of a Mid Tier character; has a realitive equal amount of pros and cons, and his matchups are pretty mundane.

So I'd like to hear what you Ike mainers think about this. Don't get too harsh if I missed something badly; I played with Ike for about 4 days.

 

[Wyvern-x]

Hooray for people seeing the good in Ike. Anyway don't forget Jab and Nair can lead into a whole bunch of moves. Other than that you covered mostly everything.

*Waits for someone to say something about eruption*

 

[Lex Crunch]

Eruption, while it is certainly not stellar, isn't as bad as you say. One of Ike's strongest of strong strongpoints in Strongland is his edge game, and Eruption plays a huge part in it. The hitbox sticks out for quite a while, and if you're using it is an edgeguard, then you will most likely end up charging it for a considerable amount of time in some situations. It's just one of those situational things that eventually becomes instinct. If they're just low enough, and their recovery sends them into the flame, then use it. Also helps if you can time the Super Armor/release by watching the opposition's edge frames. At just the right time, releasing Eruption will always hit them unless they ledgehop. The SAF's are integral to its proper use. Hell, if the enemy is damaged enough (which rarely happens, but is still plausible), then you can give chase as they're trying to recover, and believe it or not, it works very well; you may even get lucky and get those SAF's.

Thus concludes my antithesis of Eruption's suckyness.

 

[YagamiLight]

A well made post with good points. Whenever I say that Ike has a good aerial game, I always get vacant stares from the non-Ike crowd.

Lex got Eruption, so I'll discuss the throws. Basically, Ike's throws are pretty much for the sole purpose of "get out of my face". They aren't good, there are in fact below average. But they have uses, regardless.

 

[Kirk]

The stereotype exists simply because every time someone plays an Ike...it's a crappy one.

My thoughts:

Jab: Agree. It's F***ing godly.

Tilts: Pretty much. Ftilt is best saved fresh for a kill, while Uptilt can be used moreso for decent cover in front and below...though Jabs can usually take care of that Dtilt is a notable mention...but generally not used.

Aerials: Agree. Fair reaches across all of FD(seriously). Uair is good as well...has a long lasting hitbox that can punish platform landing, airdodgers and the like...not to mention it has...

Power: Yep

Specials:
-Eruption IS a good move...you just have to know how to use it properly. Situational for sure...can be a good mixup at the ledge. I.E. instead of trying to hit before they get to the ledge, wait and time the SAF for a getup attack or a ledgehop. You'd be surprised how much it works.
-Counter is meh...as you say.
-Not only for recovery, lately I've been experimenting with Aether as an attack...and wow is it nice. Crap loads of damage and is safe to use if it hits. Keyword IF it hits...you just have to be careful and smart about how you use it. <3 Aether.
-QD is a good mixup now and then...overall not that great of a special...as you say. Basically if someone expects an Aether recovery, go QD...simple mindgames

Throws: Also meh...as you say. Mostly used to send people off the ledge for the edgeguard...or Dthrow to kill if they are 160%+ (I'd hope NO ONE has has their opponents living this long xD)

Projectiles: They suck...what you said. Though anything can be overcome by a smart player...but that's not really the point here.

Recovery: Just a note...Aether is VERY counterable. Just wait till you come across a player who loves to edgehug just before your sword reaches up and use their invincibility frames to screw you over. IF you can even make it onto the stage...it leaves you in a horrible position with the ending lag...they can get up from the ledge and grab or w/e they want. Counters to this method are basically a surprise QD(though if they react fast you're screwed there too...) or altering the timing of your Aether activation. If you have no choice but to just barely grab the ledge...yeah...it sucks. But otherwise...Aether is awesome for recovering! :D

Oh yeah...FSmash is also godly...it hurts so good.

 

[Hoser]

-Counter is meh...as you say.

It's comments like these that make me cry at night. ;-;

I love the counter, and have gotten very accurate with it, fighting against any character. People just need to practice its timing more. It's also a good ledge guard against certain characters (the Link's third jump, for example)

 

[Kirk]

meh = average

It's an OK move. Not bad...but not good either.

And VERY situational at that.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

It's comments like these that make me cry at night. ;-;

I love the counter, and have gotten very accurate with it, fighting against any character. People just need to practice its timing more. It's also a good ledge guard against certain characters (the Link's third jump, for example)

Agree here. I'm actually surprised by how many successful Counters I've encountered from Ikes, but that was probably because I was easy to read. It works very well, even against faster characters like Marth.

 

[•Col•]

It's comments like these that make me cry at night. ;-;

I love the counter, and have gotten very accurate with it, fighting against any character. People just need to practice its timing more. It's also a good ledge guard against certain characters (the Link's third jump, for example)

Eh?

If a character has a recovery that doesn't grab the ledge very well, like Link's spin attack, I just charge up Eruption... >___>

 

[Akashi]

If you have time to counter a move like a FF fair, you have time to spot dodge and punish them. It's only good for moves like a strong fsmash (DK comes to mind) that you KNOW will be connecting. Other than that, you leave yourself open... whereas you could've just spot dodged and punished with a tilt or grab.

 

[Hoser]

Counter has good knock back though, so if it's successful, they're most likely not going to be able to punish you for it. I find it good for taking control of the battle as well.

For example, let's say you're being forced on the defensive by Game and Watch. Now let's say you manage to counter his turtle while he is at a low %. The knock back will send him a few spaces away, and you can follow it up with a dash attack immediately, or as he's getting up, run in for a grab, and throw him towards the closest ledge. From there, I find it much easier to take charge of the battle, since the grab can lead into jab combos, or if the GaW isn't skilled enough, another counter.

Now let's say you counter GaW's key while he's at high damage. If you're not standing in the middle of the stage, and you counter him to the closest side, he's most likely dead, as the knock back is greatly increased.

The lis of its usefulness is endless.

 

[Akashi]

Except for the fact that you have to determine when he hits, unlike Marth. Marth's counter is semi-useful because it's near instant, whereas Ike you HAVE to guess. What's the problem in guessing? It's like flipping a coin, and if you guess wrong, well.... "You're open!"

 

[Hoser]

When you're battling someone, you tend to notice their battling habits (or at least I do). Using the counter becomes easier as the battle progresses.

 

[Akashi]

When you're battling someone, you tend to notice their battling habits (or at least I do). Using the counter becomes easier as the battle progresses.

True, and they do the same.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rCHFvmbiCUc go to 1:25, I read Ryko like a book.

 

[Hoser]

Indeed, they do do the same. I'm not claiming you're going to be successful with the counter 100% of the time, but it can be an extremely helpful move.

In that video, you do read him like a book. The only problem with it is you both use your counters at very poor times, with the exception of one or two of them.

I'll record some videos in the next few days and show you how I use my counters.

 

[Kirk]

True, and they do the same.

This.

It goes both ways...they can expect a Counter from you and then you're f***ed.

And, you know, we're assuming opponents are good :D But I suppose that should go without saying...

 

[YagamiLight]

I think I have a few videos where I manage a nice array of counters, I'll try to find them and eventually upload them. The problem is, with a 10 frame start up time, you can't unleash the counter as soon as you see the attack coming. For that, you're going to have to shield/airdodge/spotdodge or whatever. Still a decent move every now and then, of course. In Ike v Marth or Ike dittos, it's quite a good feeling to charge a smash, let them counter, and once their counter frames wear off, hit them.

 

[HeroMystic]

Don't underestimate counter. I got saved plenty of times because I used counter to block a kill move and gave myself some breathing room, and it eventually leads me to winning the match.

That said, counter is situational, but it's best used when you don't use it a lot. Save it to counter kill moves, mainly aerials.

 

[FuRy Smash]

a lot of ike's moves can be situational but learning to use them correctly and learning when exactly to use them will bring out ike's true ablilty.

 

[Ussi]

Ike is a situational character



Counter is <3, its great for moves with lingering hitboxes, and 10 frames isn't that bad now ;o (its still only 2 frame slower than bair) making it one of Ike's fast moves.

People who mess up counter are those who are not thinking about why they are countering.

Also, counter slows down how fast you fall for like 2 seconds ;o

 

[AndrewCarlson]

In Ike v Marth or Ike dittos, it's quite a good feeling to charge a smash, let them counter, and once their counter frames wear off, hit them.

Easier to pull off on Marth since his counter frames end before Ike's. But then most Marths would just wait for you to release and still be able to activate their Counter in time.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

*ignores the counter discussion*

The stereotype exists simply because every time someone plays an Ike...it's a crappy one.
I honestly have to say there are less than 50 good Ikes in the U.S. at least its less than 50 known good Ikes.
My thoughts:

Jab: Agree. It's F***ing godly.
There is a stereo type here as well. People think it isn't all that great and even think snake's is better.
Tilts: Pretty much. Ftilt is best saved fresh for a kill, while Uptilt can be used moreso for decent cover in front and below...though Jabs can usually take care of that Dtilt is a notable mention...but generally not used.
Can't disagree here idk why I quoted you.
Aerials: Agree. Fair reaches across all of FD(seriously). Uair is good as well...has a long lasting hitbox that can punish platform landing, airdodgers and the like...not to mention it has...

Power: Yep
Ditto to both. Waits for spike addict to talk about Dtilt.
Specials:
-Eruption IS a good move...you just have to know how to use it properly. Situational for sure...can be a good mixup at the ledge. I.E. instead of trying to hit before they get to the ledge, wait and time the SAF for a getup attack or a ledgehop. You'd be surprised how much it works.
-Counter is meh...as you say.
-Not only for recovery, lately I've been experimenting with Aether as an attack...and wow is it nice. Crap loads of damage and is safe to use if it hits. Keyword IF it hits...you just have to be careful and smart about how you use it. <3 Aether.
-QD is a good mixup now and then...overall not that great of a special...as you say. Basically if someone expects an Aether recovery, go QD...simple mindgames
eruption is an awesome move I thought you would have mentioned more things kirk. 1st off on a good number of recoveries it is a guaranteed hit. Link, and CF always get hit by it if you time it right same with warrio's UP B.
-counter is meh don't argue people
-Aether is awesome as an attack I think I started using aether as an attack around the same time as kirk did and it does a **** load of damage. Very awesome follow up from a U tilt at low percents especially under a platform. If you trip them with an aerial in a platform another awesome follow up. Find ways to hit with it and you'll be doing as much damage as you do with jab.

It's also immune to shine spikes I probably went trough 20 today and didn't die once. Plus I counter attacked with aether spikes a good 1/4th of the time.
-QD is a good move to mix up like it has been said. It's actually awesome to punish people who are charging attacks that mess up on spacing.

Throws: Also meh...as you say. Mostly used to send people off the ledge for the edgeguard...or Dthrow to kill if they are 160%+ (I'd hope NO ONE has has their opponents living this long xD)
His grab release isn't meh on a good number of people. It can be used to follow up to more godly jabs or regrab if they are trying to shield the jab. Can also lead into aether one a few people.
Projectiles: They suck...what you said. Though anything can be overcome by a smart player...but that's not really the point here.
Projectiles are a real pain especially against a pit using them to edge gaurd. UHHH DON'T JUMP!!!
Recovery: Just a note...Aether is VERY counterable. Just wait till you come across a player who loves to edgehug just before your sword reaches up and use their invincibility frames to screw you over. IF you can even make it onto the stage...it leaves you in a horrible position with the ending lag...they can get up from the ledge and grab or w/e they want. Counters to this method are basically a surprise QD(though if they react fast you're screwed there too...) or altering the timing of your Aether activation. If you have no choice but to just barely grab the ledge...yeah...it sucks. But otherwise...Aether is awesome for recovering! :D
what he said
Oh yeah...FSmash is also godly...it hurts so good.
****en match winner right here. Down by 2 stocks? get in there and kill with a fresh Fair if your opponent is at a high percent. Now 2 Nair to jab combos, Fsmash and your back to even **** yah!

Gata go start HW now I'm not like Ussi.

 

[YagamiLight]

Also, counter slows down how fast you fall for like 2 seconds ;o

With that in mind, I think all of Ike's specials can be used in recovering, Aether and QD are obvious, and Eruption and Counter slightly change your momentum in addition to deterring enemy attacks.

Easier to pull off on Marth since his counter frames end before Ike's. But then most Marths would just wait for you to release and still be able to activate their Counter in time.

Yeah, it's not definite, it's more of a matter of prediction.

 

[Kirk]

Ah good call...I forgot about grab releases. It's a nice option to throw in there...I never do it simply because I forget to xD

On the whole momentum shifting...you wouldn't want to counter coming back...it slows you down vertically...but it also halts your horizontal momentum as well...which is something Ike desperately needs (correct me if I'm wrong). It should be used, however, to stop you from fastfalling if need be.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, eruption doesn't give you and sort of momentum boost...but please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

 

[YagamiLight]

Ah good call...I forgot about grab releases. It's a nice option to throw in there...I never do it simply because I forget to xD

On the whole momentum shifting...you wouldn't want to counter coming back...it slows you down vertically...but it also halts your horizontal momentum as well...which is something Ike desperately needs (correct me if I'm wrong). It should be used, however, to stop you from fastfalling if need be.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, eruption doesn't give you and sort of momentum boost...but please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

Yeah, Counter's not a good move to use when returning, but it has niche uses.

From what I testing just now, there is a very slight stall effect with Eruption, or that's what my stopwatch shows between a full hop and a full hopped Eruption. I wouldn't go ahead and say it actually does have a momentum stopping effect just yet, as it could just be my testing. I'll test it out later using more methods, it's not a good idea to recover with off the stage, in any case.

 

[Roager]

Yeah, Counter's not a good move to use when returning, but it has niche uses.

From what I testing just now, there is a very slight stall effect with Eruption, or that's what my stopwatch shows between a full hop and a full hopped Eruption. I wouldn't go ahead and say it actually does have a momentum stopping effect just yet, as it could just be my testing. I'll test it out later using more methods, it's not a good idea to recover with off the stage, in any case.

I think it stalls for a small time, when Ike first raises his sword. Aside from that, though, I don't think it has any effect on vertical momentum. It probably stops you horizontally, like counter does, tho.

 

[Lex Crunch]

I'm now torn on whether or not I like this thread. Is it all relevant to the title, or are we just reiterating the guide with updates and personal thoughts? It was a big opinion debate on the counter for a while, and now I don't know where it's going, but I shouldn't dwell on it too much.

My last two cents on the subject at hand, while Eruption is absolutely no good for recovery (though if you can master the art of B-Sticking the neutral, then you may be able to keep some momentum), if someone is coming at you while you're recovering, you have your jump still, and you have the height to make it, then by all means, use that uncharged Eruption. If you haven't used it in a recovery battle on either the defensive or offensive side before, then you have no idea just how easy the opposition falls into it! Give it a few tries, I guarantee you'll love it. I know I do. It's even more satisfying if you happen upon those SAF's....

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

If your going to test stalling do it with frame data because stop watches have like gigantic human error, big enough to be Fsmashed by Ike 3 times.

 

[YagamiLight]

Yeah, the human error bit is why I'm not stating anything definitive. I'm going to sleep now, but later on, I'll probably just have two Ikes jump off equal parts of New Pork, with one using Eruption and the other free falling. That should be enough.

And Lex, that's an awesome thing to do at times, but of course you should try to make sure that you don't release late, as the cool-down time of eruption is as scary as it's KO power is.

 

[kakx]

Isn't really a bad character, if you use his neutral as his attacks, he will have less of a delay/lag. Also his neutrals rack up almost the same amount of the dmg as a non-tipped marth. However, the bad side to it is the smashes and the return. The smashes are very *situational* if you miss you're smash. The user using the Ike will be punished like mad, I can probably rack up 70% on an Ike when i punish him. Secondly his return is horrible, it just goes straight up with a lag when touching the floor, thus giving you a chance to punish or *countering the attack* making him fall back outside with no more jumps.

 

[Alus]

When you're battling someone, you tend to notice their battling habits (or at least I do). Using the counter becomes easier as the battle progresses.

the same thing is said for DT... doesent make anything better

 

[Alus]

Isn't really a bad character, if you use his neutral as his attacks, he will have less of a delay/lag. Also his neutrals rack up almost the same amount of the dmg as a non-tipped marth.

not to mention that his neutral b has small super armor frames with the penalty of lag...

However, the bad side to it is the smashes and the return. The smashes are very *situational* if you miss you're smash.

this is true for f-smash... but usmash is spammable.


The user using the Ike will be punished like mad, I can probably rack up 70% on an Ike when i punish him. Secondly his return is horrible, it just goes straight up with a lag when touching the floor, thus giving you a chance to punish or *countering the attack* making him fall back outside with no more jumps.

this is why you grab the edge... in brawl... grabing the edge seems to always be so much better than to land above it... (free extra invincibility frames =D)

but i never heard of ike getting hit off and loseing the ability to aether... can someone explain? and what happend to u_air?

 

[fromundaman]

Ike is a good character if used correctly. My brother mains Ike actually, and here's what I've noticed:

-If you don't use counter too often, people won't see it coming when you do use it, and considering it does more damage than whatever you were throwing at him, Ike can hurt you pretty badly with a well placed counter (especially for heavy hitting characters.)
-Aether can be a great offensive move, but that's already been discussed over and over.
-Use your tilts/jabs a lot. Eventually your opponent will be used to dodging/blocking quick attacks, so when you pull out a smash they'll get screwed on timing.
-Dsmash can be quite good if the enemy is in your face, as it hits a little bit behind whichever side Ike is striking. Therefore, it can be hard to dodge at very close range and does decent shield damage. It's not too slow either.
-Usmash is kind of slow but it's range is pretty amazing.
-SideB is pretty good too for mindgames/quick approach, and it can be kind of hard to dodge. Does decent damage too.
-Dair stays out forever and ever and ever and ever... Personally, I hate, and I would like to repeat, HATE that move when I'm playing against Ike since I always seem to get hit by that blade when I go to counter-attack, even though it looks like the move has been over for a while.
-His Bair is very fast, and also quite strong. A great move.
-Also, yeah, Aether can be countered by edgehogging, but if they mess it up, they're dead from the spike, so it may not be as great a solution as some would like to think.

That's it for now. My brother is on a seperate continent right now, so I haven't played a decent Ike in a while, so I'm just going off of what I remember from our matches.

 

[Lex Crunch]

And Lex, that's an awesome thing to do at times, but of course you should try to make sure that you don't release late, as the cool-down time of eruption is as scary as it's KO power is.

But of course. I spent at least an hour in training jumping off of Battlefield with charged and uncharged Eruptions until I built the instinct to determine the lowest safe distance with and without a jump, so now it's all second nature. It's great, really, but only at the right damage.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

idk why I'm arugeing this.

When you're battling someone, you tend to notice their battling habits (or at least I do). Using the counter becomes easier as the battle progresses.

This is the whole reason counter is meh... high tier characters and tournament level people don't fall into habits.

I feel like a lot of people posting here have the wrong idea on some of Ike's moves. You being able to land counter doesn't make it good it makes the people you play bad.

QD is another meh move. It isn't useless, it isn't great, it isn't good, its meh.


meh.

 

[doom dragon 105]

Ike isnt too good imo, his tier position is were it should be, I prefer ike as low/mid tier, makes winning more rewarding

 

[Kinzer]

Tiers are for queers (even though it would be nice if he were just a few places higher).

 

[HeroMystic]

*watches the TR4Q-haters and Tier-happy people maul Kinzer for saying the forbidden phrase*

And Ike is "Meh" in general. His lack of recovery options in an aerial-based floaty game can't be ignored.

If Ike was like how he was in FE10 then he would be God(dess) tier.

 

[fromundaman]

QD is another meh move. It isn't useless, it isn't great, it isn't good, its meh.

Actually, it's a pretty good move. The lag after it is horrible, but only if the attack connects. If you don't want the lag, make sure to charge it enough so that you stop in front of your opponent then go into another attack (the jab is a solid choice).

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

It's not a solid choice what your saying is to use QD when you will land with jab distance of your opponent. QD last 45 frames if you use the IASA frames human reaction is 12 frames on average thats including your grama. It leaves them with 33 frames to just move forward and shield which means your open for longer than you are if you miss counter making it meh.