Why I am a Christian

[MetaKnight'sSword]

Its sad how narrow minded and brainwashed you are. Your mind is like a tiny little box the size of dice. People like you are everything wrong with this country. Do us all a favor and go fight and die in Iraq. Crazy religious nut. If everyone said to jump off a cliff, would you? I think so.

Your statements aren't just absolutely outrageously wrong, but they are sick. You think that god laughs at innocent deaths? Your like a religious nazi. Did someone watch The Passion a few too many times? Why don't you try to read another book besides the bible. You'll be safe I promise.

But let's all face it, there is no hope for you. You are like a dead, possesed zombie.
It's not your fault though, i guess. You've probably been surrounded by crazy people your whole life.

Frankly, i find people like you scary. Its like they lack the ability to think. Religion is like a parasite that has been attached to you at birth, and your mind hasn't developed properly.

I thought people like you only existed in like the 1800's and before.

Civic although I totally agree with evereyrhing u just said about forboxgux....unfortunately it was kind of pointless ....ONLY because forboxgux is banned and he would not be able to see yur comment....but what u said is absolutley tru...im not disagreeing with what u said...I'm just stating that he wont be able to see it (^^)v

 

[MuBa]

Can ya explain the doctrine of Trinity?

And HOLY CRAP that Caramelldansen song is SOOOOOOO ADDICTIVE!

 

[Zero Beat]

Its sad how narrow minded and brainwashed you are. Your mind is like a tiny little box the size of dice. People like you are everything wrong with this country. Do us all a favor and go fight and die in Iraq. Crazy religious nut. If everyone said to jump off a cliff, would you? I think so.

I'd hope he would. One less fanatic.

 

[straight8]

Maybe not lacking the belief of a "god" but contradicting religion's teachings gave us science... you know, the computer you're typing on right now?

straight8: you're a troll, but a good one though. I'm almost catching on what you say but your lack of any intelligent, rational or factual talk is just crushing my head in half. Are you a creationist?

What is creationist? Like 7 day creation? No, I think God took a little bit longer than to make the world. But if you're asking if I believe God created the whole world, then yeah, I'm a christian, and it's in the bible.

What do you mean by troll?
Rational fact #1: miracles. happen. therefore, there must be a God.
Rational fact #2: they happen in church and around christians.

I notice no one has tried to deny miracles yet. christianity doesn't exist without miracles. Well, it can, but it is a lot funner with them.

And I'm assuming troll has negative connotations.. Idk why I'm being called one.

Value of Christianity?

Lets play Pros and Cons

Pros: Gives valuable moral lessons. It saves the weak and afraid from facing uncertainty when they die.

Cons: Religious Violence (I.E: The Crusades, Now listen I understand that people did this however they were pushed by the word of god), People just gladly hand over there money to the church every Sunday, Catholic Priests (jk jk), the average Christian is ignorant and intolerable, I could go on...

By the way, christians are not weak. And I'm not afraid of anything at all.

No, they pushed the word of God. How about play what is true and what is not? All I can say is miracles. That is the only way that God can prove he is real for some people, and then you can still doubt. But look at other christians lives. I sit with christians at lunch that I hate, because all they do is talk about how they won't have sex before marraige and they wear nice christian t-shirts. Don't give me that. I want something real. Like friendships and relationships that last because you both put God first and act unselfishly to eachother.

uhmm just wanna be sure on something...when u said God actually talked back to u....did u mean he actually spoke words to u....or that he did something miraculous as a response??

Um, usually the first one. Seriously. and I do not need a tight little jacket. But here's one thing about the second one: there's this girl that was a really good friend and we used to email a lot. about 6 months ago, she just randomly stopped emailing me. She stil talked to me, but it was just different. I've been going through a really hard time at school, because I switched schooled for the 4th time in about 6 years, and I didn't have many real friends (like, christians. You will not find a better or more devoted friend than a christian, trust me). So tuesday night (two days ago), I just prayed that I would have my friendships restored. Then I did like three praise songs on my ipod in my room and went to bed. The following day, she emails me saying that she missed our emails.

Coincidence?


And forboxguy is kind of weird, like super messed up. Idk why he says those things.
Also, that song is kind of annoying. Some random guy could have made it in his basement in about 2 hours.

And lastly... I really don't give many rational facts. but rational depends on the person, really. I don't want to get into all this does God exist crap, because you can argue that for days. I don't want to argue: I'm trying to tell you the truth about my life, and I couldn't care less how muc I logically prove their is a god. Ssee my super rational facts above.

Also, time:
Time is a line, always moving forward.
--------------------------------------

if we are in a spot on a timeline, that menas there has to be a beginning an an end, which mean time was created by something. God.

I really don't care if you argue that. I'm saying God is real, he's real in my life and he wants to be real in everyones, yours.

 

[pokemonmaster01]

Rational fact #1: miracles. happen. therefore, there must be a God.
Rational fact #2: they happen in church and around christians.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of a fact. Facts can be proven. Since Christianity is based on faith, and faith is belief without proof, miracles cannot be proven, and therefore cannot be facts. What is a miracle? Is it something good done by God? Is there a certain level of good it has to be before it is considered miraculous? Miracles cannot be proof of God unless you prove that he was behind them, and since you can't do that unless you prove he's real in the first place, they are not evidence.

And lastly... I really don't give many rational facts. but rational depends on the person, really. I don't want to get into all this does God exist crap, because you can argue that for days. I don't want to argue: I'm trying to tell you the truth about my life, and I couldn't care less how muc I logically prove their is a god. Ssee my super rational facts above.

It's amazing how many times you can contradict yourself in one paragraph.

Also, time:
Time is a line, always moving forward.
--------------------------------------

if we are in a spot on a timeline, that menas there has to be a beginning an an end, which mean time was created by something. God.

If we are at a spot on a timeline, that means there has to be a beginning and an end, which means time was created by something. Satan. Eskimos. Diana Ross. You can put anything there, it doesn't make it true. Who are you to say God wasn't created by something? You weren't there.

 

[SkylerOcon]

To quote Epicurus:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence comth evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God

~ 33 A.D.

Also, on the subject of miracles, they're nothing more than luck. It's a miracle I didn't drown when I was trapped underwater for 15 minutes one time. But that doesn't make me believe in a God.

Also, free will. God claims to give us free will, but if we don't believe in him, we go to hell. Why is that? Why will I go to hell when I'm a good person? Is Ghandi in hell? I don't think so. It's unfair for a God to say that we have free will, but if we excersise it, we become the ****ed.

If this is so, then why call him god?

 

[Zero Beat]

Also, free will. God claims to give us free will, but if we don't believe in him, we go to hell. Why is that?

I'm not religious at all, but let me clarify. He throws the 10 commandments at you, you follow them and you will go to heaven(and you also need to have faith in him), if not(due to your free will to choose between the two paths) you go to hell.

Like, we have free will to punch a teacher in the face, but if you violate a certain law, you get punished.

 

[SkylerOcon]

However, you don't have to follow a religion. I'm just saying that everybody wants to not be stuck in eternal torture. If hell actually does exist, I don't want to be sent there because of my beliefs.

 

[deadpoe7]

Can ya explain the doctrine of Trinity?

And HOLY CRAP that Caramelldansen song is SOOOOOOO ADDICTIVE!

I was just reading through because I was interested in DeadToSin's post...too bad he hasn't answered the one or two questions that have come up in 12 pages. (Maybe he saw how out of hand the thread was getting). Anyway, you had a question Mr. MuBa:

The doctrine of the Trinity is the truth that God has three primary manifestations. Not only is He God the Creator, but He is God the Son (Jesus), and The Holy Ghost. Basically, God is three people in one.

I think our grounds for that doctrine come from the gospel of John if you're interested in reading more into it. In the beginning of John it says that the Word (which is one of the names for Jesus) was with God and the Word was God. I'd have to study it more to speak on the subject further.

And I don't know why it's so addictive...maybe it's sending special beta waves to your brain or something!

 

[straight8]

However, you don't have to follow a religion. I'm just saying that everybody wants to not be stuck in eternal torture. If hell actually does exist, I don't want to be sent there because of my beliefs.

Well, you do have a choice. All hell is is the absence of God. there won't be torture machines down there or anything, but it will be agony being away from God.

I'm not religious at all, but let me clarify. He throws the 10 commandments at you, you follow them and you will go to heaven(and you also need to have faith in him), if not(due to your free will to choose between the two paths) you go to hell.

Like, we have free will to punch a teacher in the face, but if you violate a certain law, you get punished.

Wow, don't talk about what you don't know about.

You have no clue what christianity is about.
Christianity is not about the ten commandments. It is about Jesus Christ. No one follows the ten commandments anymore, all you follow is love God and love your neighbor. If loving your neighbor means not lying or stealing from them, ok.

Christianity has nothing to do with the ten commandments. If you love your teacher, you will not punch him or her in the face, unless they were doing something stupid. I don't know the exact situation..

To quote Epicurus:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence comth evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God

~ 33 A.D.

Also, on the subject of miracles, they're nothing more than luck. It's a miracle I didn't drown when I was trapped underwater for 15 minutes one time. But that doesn't make me believe in a God.

Also, free will. God claims to give us free will, but if we don't believe in him, we go to hell. Why is that? Why will I go to hell when I'm a good person? Is Ghandi in hell? I don't think so. It's unfair for a God to say that we have free will, but if we excersise it, we become the ****ed.

If this is so, then why call him god?

Ghandi is in hell.
What are you talkig about fair for? Who made you the judge of what is fair? God made you, and he wanted you to live your life. Meaning, he chose not to automatically control you, which is good. It's your choice to believe in Jesus, and if you do, then Jesus takes all your sin away, and you live in heaven forever, just hanging out with God and every other christian, forever. that is what is unfair, that Jesus had to die and I go to heaven.

nice philosophy, what does that prove?

That some greek guy said something deep and tortured because he was just like everyone else: uncertain and unwilling to take a risk to find truth. The only reason he allows evil is so he can allow you to conquer it.

Pokemon master:
Prove you exist. Prove I exist. I don't believe it. It isn't a fact. Don't talk about proof like you know something about it. Everything requires faith. When you put a foot forward, you have faith the ground is real. You can't prove the ground is real until you step and feel it. And what if you are in some elaborate dream and aliens are testing your reactions and senses? What if you are a machine? You need faith no matter what.

...............

If satan created time, then satan is god. whoever created time is the same person who controls the whole world. call him or her whatever you like, but the devil is a creation of God.
If you think the eskimos or diana ross created time, you need a nice 8 by 8 foot new home and a nice new tight jacket.

And I didn't contradict myself.. duh. What are you looking at anyway.

 

[Cubemario]

The doctrine of trinity varies from religion to religion. The general idea however is God is constituted by three persons The Father (the creator), The Son (Jesus Christ), and The Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit. These three persons are in complete agreement with one another and each play their roles in what is called the Godhead.

There are many scriptures that support this doctrine. Such as the many times that god speaks to himself as more than one person. Anyway, that's the general idea.

 

[Rhambo]

We had a bot before that said we were all doomed to hell.

They are fun to mess with for sure.

That made me lol

 

[Eor]

That some greek guy said something deep and tortured because he was just like everyone else: uncertain and unwilling to take a risk to find truth. The only reason he allows evil is so he can allow you to conquer it.

Please explain how I can conquer being shot in my sleep, or why God would set up an obstacle course then create people for it just to see if some of them will spend eternity being in hell. That doesn't sound loving.

When you put a foot forward, you have faith the ground is real. You can't prove the ground is real until you step and feel it.

No, I can understand that the ground is real because I can see it. That's why most people dont' walk off of cliffs. No one needs faith in the ground, it's an observable force.

And what if you are in some elaborate dream and aliens are testing your reactions and senses? What if you are a machine? You need faith no matter what.

What does any of that have to do with faith? The only thing you'd need faith in is to believe in that, not to disbelieve it. There is no reason to assume that, therefore faith has no basis for it.

...............

If satan created time, then satan is god. whoever created time is the same person who controls the whole world. call him or her whatever you like, but the devil is a creation of God.
If you think the eskimos or diana ross created time, you need a nice 8 by 8 foot new home and a nice new tight jacket.

I like how you ridicule him, yet everything he said flew straight over your head.

And I didn't contradict myself.. duh. What are you looking at anyway.

You stated again and again you didn't want to get in a debate, but your entire post was you debating, followed by your last post, which was another debate.

 

[slave1]

i might get yelled at by people but man everyone seems to be lost in everything. and i know that i am going to get alot of ranting at me for saying that but i am blessed for knowing what i know.

 

[Zero Beat]

Christianity is not about the ten commandments. It is about Jesus Christ. No one follows the ten commandments anymore,

Interesting.

I must have studied four years of the 'wrong religion' then. How sad. I love it how religions bump heads.

God is a pretty good story, just try to keep that in mind.

 

[Cubemario]

 

[SkylerOcon]

...

Wow...

Did straight8 actually say that nobody follows the 10 commandments? The entire Christian faith is centered around that...

And about Ghandi going to hell! He was such a great man, and you should not say such horrid things. You're the reason why I dislike Christianity.

 

[Cubemario]

The entire christian faith isn't centered around the ten commandments. The entire christian faith is not centered around anything. You have too many denominations that are different from one another.

 

[SkylerOcon]

If I'm not mistaken the very core of Christianity is the Ten Commandments. According to the Christian faith, they were the first 'word' of god on the planet earth, if I'm not mistaken

 

[Lied]

Hi guys. I read the first page and skimmed through the last few pages found this topic to be very lively. I'd like to add my 2 cents.

My parents, growing up in Communist China, were not raised up with relgious influences so, lo and behold, I wasn't either. Throughout the bulk of my life (which actually isn't much considering I'm only a teenager), I never took up any religion despite many visits to churches and temples because they just did not make sense to me, but I still respected all of the religions' values nonetheless.

However, in the past few years, I began to notice a pattern in some Christians: arrogance. The moment I mention that I am Atheist, some Christians immediately would lose all respect for me. In fact in just the past week, after answering his question of what I believe would happpen when I die (I just replied "I'm just gone") to a Christian, he replied "so basically you're going to become a tree. And then the tree will be cut and made into a Bible."

...Yeah. I couldn't begin to point out all the fallacies in his statement but realized he knew it didn't make sense—he just wanted to insult me.

I'm not saying all Christians are arrogant, in fact most of my friends are Christian, but I can't help but question the foundations of a religion that tends to breed this kind of bigotry.

 

[MuBa]

The doctrine of trinity varies from religion to religion. The general idea however is God is constituted by three persons The Father (the creator), The Son (Jesus Christ), and The Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit. These three persons are in complete agreement with one another and each play their roles in what is called the Godhead.

There are many scriptures that support this doctrine. Such as the many times that god speaks to himself as more than one person. Anyway, that's the general idea.

Do you ever consider that there is one other question confronting the doctrine of the Trinity which needs to be answered by every Trinitarian that if any three different beings which are three different entities, are also at the same time One, with absolute unity in all the perfect sense or meaning of Oneness, what is the common control which makes them remain three and also be one at one and the same time? If there be any factor of such a wonderful and inconceivable phenomena causing this amazing effect, then that supreme causative power, which controls the number and the unity, will alone be the Omnipotent God and not any one of the three which are only the controlled components.

Besides, there arises another problematic question which a believer in the Trinity will have to answer, as to whom is that controls or determines the splitting of one into only three different others, to be neither more nor less in number? There must be some cause for this controlled effect and that the causative factor acting supreme over three will be the Omnipotent God and not any one of the three which will only be the effect of the supreme controlling cause.

Similarly, will arise the question, what is the causative power which affects the three to be only one when joining together and not divided into many groups of beings and if there be any such cause, that supreme controlling cause will be the Omnipotent God and not anyone of the three which will only be the subservient one.

Under any circumstances no sensible man can ever reasonably believe in any effect whatsoever without some causative factor effecting it.

I sincerely apologize if you feel like these statements are going to make an argument it's just that the Trinity is something that (to me at least) is impossible to understand given such odd factors (such as the statement made above) that may negate any reasonable explanation regarding to the doctrine of the Trinity.

And if the Doctrine of Trinity is so important, then why didn't Jesus himself mention or at LEAST explain about it when he was alive?

If the Trinity is beyond comprehension then Jesus could have at least mention about it.

And as far as I'm concerned, the Bible never really mentioned about the Trinity.

Again, if any of you feel like I am attacking Christianity, I apologize. I'd like to understand this.

 

[Cubemario]

If you really want to know, just research it yourself. It's easy to understand once you do studying about it. I recommend using a bible (preferably king james)+God's Plan for Man by finis jennings dake. You'll find all the information you need about the trinity from the bible and that book.

As for the ten commandments being the 'core' of christanity. There is a part of the bible called the new testament. It talks about Jesus' birth, death, and resurrection, love, and faith these are the core of christianity. The ten commandments are just as valid as they are today, but are a smaller piece of a bigger commandment.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Romans 13:8-10

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

 

[MuBa]

King James....? I'd like to see the ORIGINAL Bible that was sent down from God Almighty...

 

[Cubemario]

The king james gets the point across just as well as the hebrew/greek does. There are only a few minor differences in wording that is easily corrected with a concordance. Besides, the book talks about the hebrew/greek when it's needed.

EDIT: You guys do realize that the TC hasn't been active in weeks?

 

[Pikaville]

I said it before and ill say it again.My theory is.....

Religion was invented to give people hope that there was something more to this life than physical life itself.They probably began as wives tales started to give the children of the time hope for something greater(life was a lot harsher back then you need to remember and people died A LOT younger and lived much worse lives)They eventually became more and more elaborate as they were passed down through generations.These "wives tales" would then be adapted from region to region to fit the culture,morals and lifestyles of that area and would become the world religions we know today.

As far as im concerned only 1(if even) can be right so ill wait until I(hopefully) meet my maker to believe in anything.I believe im agnostic(you dont believe in a god but you hope there is one)am I right in saying that?

I think Jesus was the worlds 1st decent magician/illusionist.

 

[Zero Beat]

I'll copy and paste exactly what I said in the Debate Hall.

I find a fairly reasonable argument in favor of atheism to be "Look, almost everyone knows that, if you'd be born in a different place or in a different time, you would have been a muslim or a buddhist or a jew or a hindu. Is it really worth believing something you only believe because of accident of birth? Do you really believe you were so lucky to be born into a family with the truth, or do you think your parents' religion might not actually be substantially more or less truthful because they're your parents, than mine?"

 

[slave1]

The entire christian faith isn't centered around the ten commandments. The entire christian faith is not centered around anything. You have too many denominations that are different from one another.

i would imagine the entire christian faith is centered on chirst. no if's or and's or but's that is what it is centered on.

anyways about the trinity, i believe in something different than most religions, that is because i am LDS, but from what i know through my faith is that God, Christ, And the Holy Ghost, are three seperate beings, but work as one, for one purpose, bringing about the eternal life of man.

 

[Pikaville]

I'll copy and paste exactly what I said in the Debate Hall.

I find a fairly reasonable argument in favor of atheism to be "Look, almost everyone knows that, if you'd be born in a different place or in a different time, you would have been a muslim or a buddhist or a jew or a hindu. Is it really worth believing something you only believe because of accident of birth? Do you really believe you were so lucky to be born into a family with the truth, or do you think your parents' religion might not actually be substantially more or less truthful because they're your parents, than mine?"

I like this one.A wise man if ever I saw one.

 

[pokemonmaster01]

Prove you exist.

I think, therefore I am. Beyond that, I don't need anymore proof to myself that I exist.

Prove I exist.

Assuming you're a person, I could, but it's not worth the effort. For all I know you're a computer program. Or you're the group effort of a survey company to test the market for faith-based shampoo. And you have no idea what I am either, but you assume I'm human because it's the most logical explanation, which is the same thing I have done.

I don't believe it. It isn't a fact. Don't talk about proof like you know something about it. Everything requires faith. When you put a foot forward, you have faith the ground is real. You can't prove the ground is real until you step and feel it.

I know the ground is real. It's fact, and it always will be unless one day I step forward and fall into some random abyss.

And what if you are in some elaborate dream and aliens are testing your reactions and senses? What if you are a machine? You need faith no matter what.

That's all hypothetical. Based on what I know, all that stuff is illogical, and there's no reason to believe it. I've never seen any evidence that would lead me to believe I was in a dream, or I was a machine. If there was strong enough evidence, I would believe it.

satan is god.

Lol.

 

[Pikaville]

800th post

 

[Master WGS]

You know what I'm starting to feel about this forum?

As soon as I type the words "I'm a Christian," I'm gonna have to follow it with "Don't shoot!" or "Holds up a flame shield."

Nah, just jokin'. I know most of you guys are just seeking knowledge or trying to inform others, and you're not on a "I want to belittle you " kick. That and a lot of Christians flame non-Christians, so it's not like we don't earn the fire we catch. For anyone who doesn't believe me, I cite the Crusades.




Anywho, my thoughts? If you believe Christ exists, you can look at him in two ways. You either worship him, or you think he was insane. I hate it when people of different religions claim to have 'respected' Jesus. This doesn't work. He claimed he was God. You either agree, or you don't. He either deserves your worship for being God, or he deserves your pity for being delusional for thinking so.

Anyways, onto why I think worship makes more sense than pity.

To my knowledge (which, I'll be honest, is limited. I am but a human being, and I can't say I've devoted my entire life to the study of other religions), Christianity is the only religion based on prophecy. Looking at the Bible, the Old Testament is full of prophecies about the coming Messiah. The New Testament is about Jesus fulfilling those prophecies. Whether or not this is fact is arguable, but due to it standing the test of time, and its incredible accuracy for prophecies that were later fulfilled (Hebrew nation being my favorite), I think it's at least logical to consider. Also the spiritual/emotional aspect of it, but that's too subjective and biased to be viewed as reason to believe in something in my opinion.

Anyways, there's my reasoning in a nutshell. Hopefully I didn't, like, ramble or something. I'm pretty sleepy, but I felt I might as well throw this out there before I went to bed.

 

[Pikaville]

Just to let everyone know I don't think any less of people who believe in religion.I personally just can't accept there is a god until I see it for myself.I was never one to believe anything on just blind faith.

If someone choose to believe in any religion and it makes them happy then who am I to tell them they are wrong.

 

[yossarian22]

I think, therefore I am. Beyond that, I don't need anymore proof to myself that I exist.

Ah, Descartes...
Interesting man but he just basically reduced the question of existence down to a tautology of 'one must exist in order to doubt existence'. Hardly impressive

Assuming you're a person, I could, but it's not worth the effort. For all I know you're a computer program. Or you're the group effort of a survey company to test the market for faith-based shampoo. And you have no idea what I am either, but you assume I'm human because it's the most logical explanation, which is the same thing I have done.

No, you couldn't.
You can't prove to me that I exist for the simple reason that you and I are different observers of what we presume is an objective reality. The question of what is blue? comes to mind. And how do you know you both see the same blue. That is the fundamental problem with consciousness

I know the ground is real. It's fact, and it always will be unless one day I step forward and fall into some random abyss.

No. You know your perception of the ground is real. That is all you know.
The existence of the ground appears to be inter-subjectively verifiable according to your senses, therefore you treat it as fact, but that does not make it fact.
A fact is a cold objective truth. Experience is, by nature, subjective. The scientific method jumps around this by suggesting that 'reality' is everything which is inter-subjectively verifiable.

That's all hypothetical. Based on what I know, all that stuff is illogical, and there's no reason to believe it. I've never seen any evidence that would lead me to believe I was in a dream, or I was a machine. If there was strong enough evidence, I would believe it.

Really? What is illogical about it?
Nonsensical maybe, but who says common sense adheres to the cold objective rules of logic?

 

[pokemonmaster01]

Ah, Descartes...
Interesting man but he just basically reduced the question of existence down to a tautology of 'one must exist in order to doubt existence'. Hardly impressive

Was he wrong? I don't think so. Maybe I will never know for sure the exact nature of my being, but I know this much: I am something, or else I would not be able to question it.

No, you couldn't.
You can't prove to me that I exist for the simple reason that you and I are different observers of what we presume is an objective reality. The question of what is blue? comes to mind. And how do you know you both see the same blue. That is the fundamental problem with consciousness

True, you are absolutely correct. I meant that I could prove to myself that he was real. Whether someone else believes their own existence is not my concern.

No. You know your perception of the ground is real. That is all you know.
The existence of the ground appears to be inter-subjectively verifiable according to your senses, therefore you treat it as fact, but that does not make it fact.
A fact is a cold objective truth. Experience is, by nature, subjective. The scientific method jumps around this by suggesting that 'reality' is everything which is inter-subjectively verifiable.

The only way to verify a fact is to perceive its existence. When you question perception, facts become useless because no fact can ever be proven. At that point, what is there to argue?

Really? What is illogical about it?
Nonsensical maybe, but who says common sense adheres to the cold objective rules of logic?

Am I mistaken to think that nonsensical and illogical are the same thing? It is illogical to believe something for which I have no evidence.

 

[yossarian22]

Was he wrong? I don't think so. Maybe I will never know for sure the exact nature of my being, but I know this much: I am something, or else I would not be able to question it.

That would be a great conversation in and of itself.
But here are my thoughts of "I think therefore I am" (Cogito ergo sum for you Latin nuts)
It is, when not heavily scrutinized, a tautology or a simple logical truth, but it is really just a well disguised syllogism.
P1: I think.
P2: Whatever has the property of thinking exists.
A :Therefore I exist.
There is a major problem in the second premise of 'Whatever has the property of thinking exists'. If one is doubtful of existence, one would throw out that premise in its entirety. The simple way around this is to suggest that one cannot be mistaken about one's own existence. If you are mistaken about whether you exist, you do not exist and therefore could not have made the mistake about your existence. So we may as well assume we do exist. But this argument is fallacious, it basically states that doubting existence is absurd, therefore you must believe in existence.

The far bigger problem however, is the 'I'.
The argument has shifted from a personal view to an objective third person view with no justification. The person making the argument does not know if they themselves are thinking. They know that thought is occurring and simply accepted that it is theirs. So there is another groundless premise

True, you are absolutely correct. I meant that I could prove to myself that he was real. Whether someone else believes their own existence is not my concern.

Really? How can you prove his existence to yourself?
You can't prove your own existence to yourself satisfactorily, as Cogito Ergo Sum can have holes poked in it.
But enough about that particular ramble of mine.
I am assuming you mean his consciousness or 'self'. Proving his physical existence is quite dull.
Again, you are a observing a totally subjective reality which seems to have an objective layer underneath it. In order to prove that he exists in a state similar to what you possess, you must first perceive under through his observational standpoint. You can't satisfactorily prove anything exists.

The only way to verify a fact is to perceive its existence. When you question perception, facts become useless because no fact can ever be proven. At that point, what is there to argue?

True, doubting existence is an absurd argument, but that does not automatically make it an invalid one.
And the existence of facts is yet another great topic.
To sum my views on facts, a fact is physically infeasible and therefore a useless concept in its purest form. A fact should not be considered an absolute truth, but one based off of evidence.

Am I mistaken to think that nonsensical and illogical are the same thing? It is illogical to believe something for which I have no evidence.

Yes.
Logic does not have to adhere to reality, although it often does. Basically, logic is a formalized set of rules for our common sense.
In logic, you must establish premises. These premises can be anything you want
P: Yellow is a color
P2: All colors formed from the mucus of a giant nose
A: Yellow is mucus formed from a giant nose.
This argument is clearly absurd, idiotic, garbage. But it is perfectly logical.
Common sense operates on a variety of premises. It is important to make that distinction. Anything can be logical in the right context, and illogical in the wrong context. There is a post in the "How can anybody believe in god?" thread which highlights that quite nicely.

 

[Cubemario]

http://www.godandscience.org/

It's a good website full of a lot of information that a lot of people would find interesting. It's a lot better then debating. Seeking out the truth and expanding your knowledge is better over petty argument and assumptions.

 

[yossarian22]

http://www.godandscience.org/

It's a good website full of a lot of information that a lot of people would find interesting. It's a lot better then debating. Seeking out the truth and expanding your knowledge is better over petty argument and assumptions.

To be brutally honest, that site is garbage and intellectually bankrupt.

'God is eternal'?! please.....
Defining your opponents out of existence convinces nobody. (I would hope)
This answer delays the question of 'Why is the eternal?'
An atheist can behind the meatshield of the "Multiverse" as well. Both just delay the question

There are more problems (physical evidence of the non physical?), but I don't want to have to dissect the entire bloody site.

 

[Cubemario]

To be brutally honest, your intellectually bankrupt, you looked at what was probably 0.1/10 of the website and started making wild assumptions.

I'm getting the impression of you essentially saying that answer isn't good enough. I can't believe there is a creator, I don't have an explanation for why the universe exists and i'm going to wait until there's a natural explanation to the existence of the universe. That totally leaves out the suggestion of a supernatural element because I don't like the idea that i'm not the one totally in control and that I may have to answer for my actions.

 

[yossarian22]

To be brutally honest, your intellectually bankrupt, you looked at what was probably 0.1/10 of the website and started making wild assumptions.

Well, given I just posted some evidence to the contrary....
I have seen the site, and it is far from impressive. One of the poorer Christian apologist sites out there.
But since you think otherwise and this thread is probably hopelessly off topic anyways....
For one thing, the site operates on wild, inconsistent premises and chooses to abuse the scientific method by purposefully ignoring central premises of the scientific method (the bits that prevent science from collapsing into nihilism).
Besides that, the entire site is a massive case of a false dichotomy.
They first portray the atheistic perspective in the most absurd way possible, then disprove this absurd form.
Then the declare themselves correct. Well, the universe sure as hell ain't binomial between atheism and Christianity.
How do they mis-characterize atheism? Lets take some quotes. I could post the entire website, but that'd just be overkill wouldn't it? I can just use three quotes form them
Atheists believe that all cause and effect in the universe has a naturalistic origin.
To be truly open-minded, one must recognize the possibility that supernatural events do occur. Atheists are left with a dilemma, since their worldview requires that all things that begin to exist must have a cause. So, logic requires the admission that the universe had a cause.
Both of these brilliant quotes show a fundamental misunderstanding of atheism and logic.
If they cannot grasp those basic principles, then they are not worth my time, or anybody elses. If you want, you can quote something you think is valid off of that site and I will tear it to shreds.

edit: this is not meant to demean Christianity in the slightest. Christianity remains, despite the claims of others, a perfectly valid allegorical belief system.

edit 2:

I'm getting the impression of you essentially saying that answer isn't good enough.

Yes, your answer isn't. If it is good enough for you fine, just don't expect me to find it very compelling

I can't believe there is a creator,

Nope. I am just fine with the concept of a creator.
I just have not heard a creator that cannot be rejected by Occam's Razor; is a mere redefining of god (such as Pantheism); or is superfluous (such as Deism).

I don't have an explanation for why the universe exists and i'm going to wait until there's a natural explanation to the existence of the universe.

Yep. And even if I did, I would not pretend that my answer was correct just due to the virtue of existing.
The answer 'I do not know' is not a repugnant response.

That totally leaves out the suggestion of a supernatural element

Yep.

because I don't like the idea that i'm not the one totally in control and that I may have to answer for my actions.

Wrong reason though. I am a methodological naturalist with utter faith in a single principle which prevents me from teetering into the abyss of nihilism (no offense to nihilists): Occam's Razor.
The idea of a higher power does not scare me. It strikes me as uninteresting and unsubstantiated. So it warrants little thought in my book. Whatever floats your boat though.

 

[Cubemario]

You seem to be going by the assumption that all atheists don't believe in naturalistic origin, when in fact many do. Just because one atheist doesn't believe in naturalistic origin, it doesn't mean that another one can't. Remember, the main goal of the website is talking about science and god. It's goal isn't to cater to every single belief. Maybe they got atheism wrong from YOUR point of view. It's a simple fact that atheism can be viewed in several different ways, wikipedia tends to agree as well.

"Although many self-described atheists tend toward secular philosophies such as humanism[5] and naturalism,[6] there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere"

Remember the websites goal isn't to cater to every single belief, but to talk about science and God. So it's natural ( don't mind the pun) that they would talk about naturalism. Perhaps they could have used better wording. Seems to me you misunderstand the website entirely. Also what's wrong with the website having a few opinions contrary to your own? Ever consider some of your opinions are wrong? No of course not, how could you get ANYTHING wrong? In fact there are certain subjects (minor ones, mind you) that they cover that I disagree with. I never said this website had all the answers, I said it would be interesting and a good opportunity for people to expand their knowledge.

EDIT

As for the occams razor. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/nogod.html

If your one of those tldr guys, skip to proof 4. Though it's probably going to clash with some of your beliefs, but hey, your opinion right.