Why do people think FD should be a CP?

[Jakandsig]

FD can be a beneficial stage for certain characters (OBVIOUSLY)

And your statement about projectile characters on BF is wrong. People know that some stages are bad for them, and they actually learn how to play on these stages (who would have thought that). BF is my favorite starter next to SV actually.

Ok, tell me, who can't use FD?

 

[Overswarm]

Ok, tell me, who can't use FD?

Ok, tell me, who can't use New Pork City?

 

[Jakandsig]

Ok, tell me, who can't use New Pork City?

Wolf..... His B is useless.

 

[Overswarm]

Wolf..... His B is useless.

If that's the case, then Ness can't use Final destination. His B is useless.

 

[MJG]

Jak, you didn't really explain your points very well. I have never heard anyone complain about FD at the tourney's i have been to. Its usually one of the first stages to go vs my character and banned 80% of the time but its whatever... Thats why we have other stages to play on that are liable starters/counterpicks; just like FD.

EDIT: Heres a quote from a toonlink on our boards that even express thoughts on FD:

Twin Cat: FD, not so good... projectiles won't reach very well. We can still keep pressure, but it's less effective than mid range pressuring. Battlefield is good. Yoshi's is good. Lylat is good if you consider air camping long range.

 

[InfiniteBlaze]

9 starters?
11 starters?

The stage list is as fine as it is. We should just leave it alone >_>

 

[Conti]

hmm, i see why people are saying 7 starters, and it isnt a bad idea...

but to me this just seems like the war against abortion, a topic that has 2-sides and will never be resolved

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Overswarm pretty much said everything I wanted to say at this point.

Uh... go Overswarm? \>.>

Side note, Pit does FANTASTICH on FD vs. most of the cast. Give Pit a moment of pause, get knocked to the other side, etc? Expect to dig through arrows on your way back.

Also, I don't play Wolf much, but FD's ledges really seem to MURDER him.

 

[Conti]

Overswarm pretty much said everything I wanted to say at this point.

Uh... go Overswarm? \>.>

Side note, Pit does FANTASTICH on FD vs. most of the cast. Give Pit a moment of pause, get knocked to the other side, etc? Expect to dig through arrows on your way back.

Also, I don't play Wolf much, but FD's ledges really seem to MURDER him.

Pit plays alot better on other stages tho, one thing that hurts pit on this stage is that it will take a longer time to recover understage [alot more dangerous on FD] and depending on who ur versing it cud result in a gimp... Hence why as Pit i'd Ban Yoshi's and FD... cuz Yoshi's is def pit's worst neutral [smaller stage harder to camp, and no understage recovery].. and alot of other characters can do better than pit on FD...

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

MJG, we've been to events together, but I guess I have never talked to you about it. As a player (nothing to do with my views on policy), I hate Final Destination and never ever want to play on it. Not only is the stage super boring (which is a totally subjective statement), but it's horrible for my character and great for characters I don't like fighting very much. I literally don't understand how Mr. Game & Watch is supposed to approach Meta Knight there either; I can make do on every other stage, but on Final Destination, it's just too much. I definitely am inclined to whine about it any time I'm forced that way, and I consider myself lucky G&W and me both are so good on all the CPs because FD basically means I don't have a personal stage ban (I have to use it on FD all the time).

I want to be clear it's not a personal vendetta against ICs players (though boy did lain stomp me). I just think it's dumb that ICs basically get free counterpicks under so many stage rules (when ICs are an extremely stage-dependent character) while my character has his best counterpicks banned and is forced onto his worst stages in the first match. I mean, seriously, ICs are probably better than MK on Final Destination, and no matter how you look at it, ICs don't need help. Making a stage list really biased in their favor is pretty much the same as carefully crafting a stage list to make someone like Snake as powerful as possible (MK and Snake do benefit a lot from those conservative stage lists though).

An example that I think might help. Let's say I made the following really restrictive stage list:

Starter

Norfair
Rainbow Cruise
Green Greens
Port Town Aero Dive
Halberd

Counterpick

Battlefield
Distant Planet
Big Blue
Rumble Falls
Skyworld
75m
Delfino Plaza

Among other factors, I think it's easy to agree that a chief reason that stage list is bogus is because it's basically hand-crafted to make Mr. Game & Watch the best character in the game (or close to it). Even though that stage list would do a great job of making my chances in tournaments substantially better, on a principled level I wouldn't support it because it's just plain not fair to characters like Ice Climbers and makes characters like Mr. Game & Watch artificially buffed. I see the conservative stage lists some regions are trying to push on us all as perhaps less extreme than this hypothetical stage list but going along the same idea... just opposite. A good stage list would set its primary goal as being fair to all types of characters. Sure guys like Ganondorf are bad either way, and the reality of some characters being better than others is unavoidable. However, you want to pick such stages as to keep the game's overall diversity at a maximum, and I feel strongly that including a lot of stages not only induces direct diversity (by having more stages played on) but also indirect diversity (by having more characters viable).

Final Destination, the stage and topic at hand, is largely a symbol of the bias in certain popular stage lists. Yeah, it's a stupid stage in favor of some characters, but I should stress frustrations with FD itself would pretty much disappear if other types of characters also got their stages.

OS, I push for 7 because I think it's a battle I can maybe win (with 7 just being so much better than 5). 11 was what I originally supported actually and would definitely not mind actually playing, though I'm not sold that indefinitely more starters is indefinitely more balanced (at the extreme, you end up with something like 41 starters which is going to really hurt slow characters as they have to strike tons of loop stages). Hopefully this battle doesn't prove futile; Brawl's diverse stages are too amazing to give up on.

 

[Sasha]

Win post

I'm going to go ahead and take this time to agree with any serious posts that AA makes in any thread ever.

 

[DaisyBoo92]

AA makes massive posts.

 

[PK-ow!]

An example that I think might help. Let's say I made the following really restrictive stage list:

Starter

Norfair
Rainbow Cruise
Green Greens
Port Town Aero Dive
Halberd

Counterpick

Battlefield
Distant Planet
Big Blue
Rumble Falls
Skyworld
75m
Delfino Plaza

Among other factors, I think it's easy to agree that a chief reason that stage list is bogus is because it's basically hand-crafted to make Mr. Game & Watch the best character in the game (or close to it). Even though that stage list would do a great job of making my chances in tournaments substantially better, on a principled level I wouldn't support it because it's just plain not fair to characters like Ice Climbers and makes characters like Mr. Game & Watch artificially buffed. I see the conservative stage lists some regions are trying to push on us all as perhaps less extreme than this hypothetical stage list but going along the same idea... just opposite. A good stage list would set its primary goal as being fair to all types of characters. Sure guys like Ganondorf are bad either way, and the reality of some characters being better than others is unavoidable. However, you want to pick such stages as to keep the game's overall diversity at a maximum, and I feel strongly that including a lot of stages not only induces direct diversity (by having more stages played on) but also indirect diversity (by having more characters viable).

AA, are you putting weight on your use of the term 'fair', or is your main point in your claim, "you want to pick stages [so] as to keep the game's overall diversity at a maximum"?


If the former, you'll have to define 'fair'. At least a sketch of it.

 

[The Cunning Weasel]

FD is one of my favorite stages. Unless I'm fighting a DayDayDay.

 

[GHNeko]

I dont see why people simply don't use custom stages. :|

That would alleviate all, if not, a super majority, of the problems associated with stages, you know. :|

Brawl community could take FD off starter, and make replacement starters to mean the 5/7/11 quota.




With all the tools and resources available to the community, it's nothing short of jaw-dropping how we have yet to really use features given to us in order to help better this game within our own standards ie not the "srk srk we da best" approach where we use all stages and items, but you know...

making custom stages that fall within our on personal...what's the word...criteria for what a neutral/starter is.

Not a single person can seriously come up with a legitimate reason to not dive into this unlimited source of stage potential that cannot be solved with a little time/effort.

No. One. At. All.

 

[Overswarm]

<---------- does make custom stages

testing them now

 

[GHNeko]

I know you do, but really...it's only you.

I havnt even heard a rumor of SBR thinking about using custom stages from anyone. Ever.

Everyone should be testing custom stages. Everyone. WC. EC. MW. Canada. EU. JP.

If people really want to help, they should be using all of their resources. Not some.

 

[Rubyiris]

Nah. I actually prefer stages like Yoshi's Island anyway. Except for against Yoshi players, FD's awesome for that.

Melee's neutral stages favored many characters too. For example, Yoshi's Story favored characters such as Ganondorf and Marth EXTREMELY, and yet that's a neutral instead of a CP. Melee's Final Destination is also Falco's ultimate neutral playground. Wanna make those Melee stages CPs for giving top tiers some advantages? Every character is going to do good on different stages, and Final Destination's simplicity merits it as a neutral without any logical reasoning to EVER make it a CP. Snake is amazing on Lylat Cruise. So why isn't it a CP too? Battlefield is amazing for Marth. It's practically the Marthland of neutral stages. Wanna make that a CP too?

Final Destination is the ultimate neutral stage, without any outside interference from alterations in the stage, like Smashville and its moving platform (still a great neutral stage); every stage in the game, whether it's a neutral or a CP, is going to give characters advantages over others. What can we do about that?

Nothing. Final Destination is a neutral stage, and that's all there is to it. It's Diddy's best stage, yes, but like Meta Knight complaints, does that make him unbeatable? Of course not, just gives him an edge of many on stages we play neutral on. Any good Diddy is going to be amazing on every neutral.

This is completely wrong. FD happens to be one of Falco's worst stages against characters like Peach and Marth. When it comes to laser camping, it's a much stronger strategy to camp Battlefield, Dreamland, and Pokemon Stadium. Dreamland and PS being especially guilty of this. Dreamlands high platforms make it nearly impossible for anyone not named Fox, Falco, or Captain Falcon to approach him, due to his mobility, and his stunning projectiles, and the priority of his aerials in comparison to other characters. Approaching Falco from underneath a platform without a disjointed hitbox is a dumb idea against a competent Falco who isn't knocked down.

 

[★Chaos★]

FD is a great stage but could influence lag

 

[Supreme Dirt]

... could... influence... lag?
You aren't seriously saying we should base arguments on viability over Wi-Fi, are you?

I am also a big fan of custom stages. If only we could do a bit more with them, such as changing the height that vertical moving platforms move, and fixing some arbitrary crashes that occur regarding structures and features.

Now, anyways, my point.

I main Ganondorf.

I have a 100-0 matchup against Ice Climbers, for reasons that can be explored in the matchup thread on the Ganon boards.

Ice Climbers' 3 best stages are neutrals.

There are 5 neutrals.

At the top of the metagame, in a Ganon vs. IC matchup, the Ganon almost always loses the first match.

Going into this, Blizzard on FD means Ganon can never approach. Ever.

If a stage means a certain character can never approach another, it should at least be moved to CP. This shouldn't apply when a character cannot approach a character in general regardless of stage. This does not apply to Dorf as he does have approaches against ICs on certain stages (read forcing the ICs to approach on Norfair, using the platform to his advantage on YI and LC, etc.)

Now, if anyone just makes a "weel pik anuther mane" comment and ignores my point entirely, I will personally hunt you down and punch you.

 

[theunabletable]

^Make FD a counterpick because GANON isn't viable there in a matchup?

It's friggin' Ganon, he's not viable anywhere against ICs, anyway. It'll still be like 80-20 ICs on other stages because they can get a grab so easily.

What's the point in changing a neutral to a CP to make it so that a completely non-viable character can't start out with a 100-0 matchup on a non-viable character, which is STILL unwinnable on every other stage?

 

[InfiniteBlaze]

Ganon isn't viable against the entire cast, lol

 

[Katakiri]

I completely agree that custom stages should at the very least have an official trial period from the SBR. I'll just leave it at that since that's an entirely different can of worms.

IMO (1000IMOs) I do believe that FD should be a CP, at least with the current state of the metagame. That's not just because ICs & Diddy either.
I mean this was the results for an MK after a match on FD I saw recently:
- 15% hit percentage
- 158 air attacks
- 46 ground attacks
- 15 smash attacks
- air time 324 sec (Over 5 Minutes!)

I really hope I don't have to explain how ridiculous that is.


For years hasn't the standard accepted neutral stage has been a central platform with 3 platforms above it?
Look at melee's starter stages:
Battlefield
Yoshi's Story
Fountain of Dreams
Dream Land 64
Pokemon Stadium
Final Destination

If you look at that list, FD is the only stage that has no platforms. Even P.Stadium has at least 2 platforms every transformation.
Now this was all fine since melee lacked enough neutral stages to create a starter list without FD.

But let's turn our heads to brawl:
Battlefield
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 1
Halberd
Castle Siege
Pokemon Stadium 2 (Give me a good reason)
Final Destination

The fact that there's all those stages AND a stage like FD with a big platform and a good lip in brawl and FD is still a starter. The main argument to keep FD a starter is that it has nothing to get in the way of play. Sometimes the absence of problems is the biggest problem of all.

The metagame is dominated by a character that is unchallenged in the air, 2 characters that have unparalleled stage control on FD, 3 chain grabbers; 1 of which can 0-death everyone, and.....Wario.

All that's left to say is. "Really?......r...r...REALLY?" *walks off shouting "really?"*

 

[Jakandsig]

If that's the case, then Ness can't use Final destination. His B is useless.

Ness B doesn't makw-e him jump in the air and freezes him till he lands.

 

[GodlyOwnage]

I don't believe FD is a counter pick, i mean i don't play at tournies or anything yet but i believe that concept of FD is to figure out how and when to approach your opponent. whereas a stage with platforms would be just, jump hit, platfall, hit...blah blah. personally i love FD but then again i main pika and shiek...

 

[Overswarm]

I don't believe FD is a counter pick, i mean i don't play at tournies or anything yet but i believe that concept of FD is to figure out how and when to approach your opponent. whereas a stage with platforms would be just, jump hit, platfall, hit...blah blah. personally i love FD but then again i main pika and shiek...

 

[Kuraudo]

Wow. Instead of going on a long rant on my say on FD? I shoulda just said this a long time ago.

Stage strike.

/thread

 

[Overswarm]

Wow. Instead of going on a long rant on my say on FD? I shoulda just said this a long time ago.

Stage strike.

/thread

Whoa, I never thought of this! This solves all our problems!

*Adds Rainbow Cruise and Hanenbow to starter list*

 

[Kuraudo]

And everyone was happy.

 

[GodlyOwnage]

you and your smiling seizure faces will never make me happy Kuraudo grrrr, lol

 

[Kuraudo]

o no you didnt. *****. mm?

 

[Dr.MarioX]

The Final Destination in SSBB is by far the worst version of FD.
Those edges are threats to every character, even Pit or Meta Knight.
But, it's not too horrible to be a CP.

This is a little 'out of place', but has anyone tried hacking FD to fix that problem?

 

[Chuee]

^ This guy knows whats up.

 

[fkacyan]

Yes, because ICs are dominating every tourney ever because everybody in the Brawl metagame just CPs them to FD in every set and the game is devolving as a result!

I swear to god, if people keep using an unproven, baseless, theorycrafted at best argument for stuff like this I'm going to have to start putting people in the SBR on ignore, and that would be a sign indicitive of far more than I would like it to be.

 

[Overswarm]

Yes, because ICs are dominating every tourney ever because everybody in the Brawl metagame just CPs them to FD in every set and the game is devolving as a result!

I swear to god, if people keep using an unproven, baseless, theorycrafted at best argument for stuff like this I'm going to have to start putting people in the SBR on ignore, and that would be a sign indicitive of far more than I would like it to be.

You're right. A top tier character's best stage should be a starter because of tradition and to appease simpletons that think flat = balanced. My bad.


You might want to try researching into your own claims rather than coming to a conclusion and then saying "PROVE ME WRONG". I have many months of Brawl tournament data at my fingertips and have been discussing matters like this to other SBR members for months. We're not just pulling this out of the air.

 

[fkacyan]

You're right. A top tier character's best stage should be a starter because of tradition and to appease simpletons that think flat = balanced. My bad.


You might want to try researching into your own claims rather than coming to a conclusion and then saying "PROVE ME WRONG". I have many months of Brawl tournament data at my fingertips and have been discussing matters like this to other SBR members for months. We're not just pulling this out of the air.

Hey, buddy. Burden of proof is on YOU. You have not posted data. Do so or gtfo.

Also, since you like using Melee as a reference, are you going to tell me Marth + Platform starters isn't really good for him?

 

[SwedishChef]

The ledge of death prettymuch screws a good number of fighters in terms of recovery. Personally I wouldn't care either way but whatevs.

 

[PK-ow!]

The Final Destination in SSBB is by far the worst version of FD.
Those edges are threats to every character, even Pit or Meta Knight.
But, it's not too horrible to be a CP.

This is a little 'out of place', but has anyone tried hacking FD to fix that problem?

Can someone explain these FD lip woes?

I thought we had grown past that.


I mean, I play Ganon, Link, and Samus, and I haven't gimped myself there in 12 months.

Are we even talking about the same thing?

 

[Uffe]

Could you consider Pokemon Stadium (Melee) as a starter, or is that incorrect? The reason I'm asking this is because if Final Destination is being seen as a flat stage that gimps opponents, then why is Pokemon Stadium there? Believe it or not, that stage is fairly similar, but it has smaller edges unlike Final Destination. If people are wanting this stage as a counterpick simply because it's flat, then there really should be no discussion here.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

You might want to try researching into your own claims rather than coming to a conclusion and then saying "PROVE ME WRONG". I have many months of Brawl tournament data at my fingertips and have been discussing matters like this to other SBR members for months. We're not just pulling this out of the air.

Could you by any chance put forth this data you have ^_^ I would happy to see what data regarding stages you have.