Why do people think FD should be a CP?

[Insetick]

This would be true IF there weren't random props that appear in PictoChat.

The clock, the slope, and the wind literally break the game (or rather the fight) and everything else forces you to either camp until it disappears or battle near the edge.

Those props do interrupt a match, but the stage as a whole isn't really as biased towards a set of characters as FD. Sometimes, PictoChat forces people to camp; I understand that. But in FD, Falco can camp the whole time if he wants to.

I'm not involved with the tournament scene (I didn't even know Pictochat was tourney-legal), but when I play with friends, FD is clearly a very biased stage.

 

[kackamee]

NPC actually doesn't mess Jigglypuff up in general.

FD is amazing for ICs, Falco, and Diddy Kong and terrible for Mr. Game & Watch at least, probably others. Anyone who likes to approach from the air has a terrible time against Meta Knight on Final Destination because of how ridiculously favorable to Shuttle Loop abuse the stage is. I mean, Shuttle Loop is that sort of problem on every stage, but the problem is multiplied on Final Destination. It's a terrible stage to use someone King Dedede can chaingrab against King Dedede, especially the characters he can standing chaingrab. For instance, DK vs DDD is a terrible matchup on just about any stage, but the single worst stage for DK in that matchup is probably Final Destination since platforms help him not get grabbed and auto-die, uneven ground can create situations where King Dedede can't infinite him, and sometimes transformations or hazards or something might interrupt infinites which is something DK favors. Final Destination fills Ness and Lucas with total dread; the stage is long and flat which maximizes the grab release chaingrab Marth has (on the not flat Yoshi's Island (Brawl), the grab release isn't even that bad, and they don't have a lot to fear if they avoid having a long expanse of flat stage behind them... only really difficult on Final Destination). Final Destination is also the one stage on which infinites against Wario are a full force threat; most people aren't bold and/or technical enough to go for them, but if I were a Wario main, I'd hate Final Destination due to what Peach/Yoshi/Bowser (maybe others) can do so much more easily there. On that note, Final Destination is probably Yoshi's best stage. I think it's also especially bad for Ganondorf, for whatever little that means.

I see Final Destination as a particularly character skewed stage. Just look at for how many characters and for how many matchups it's either notably good or bad. Is it as skewed as New Pork City? No, of course it isn't. Is it as skewed as PictoChat? Far more skewed really. In terms of how skewed it is, it's in general more in line with stages like Rainbow Cruise and Norfair in my experience; it just skews the opposite way in most matchups (like, in general, if a matchup really leans one way on RC, it leans just as much the other way on FD... not a strict rule but a good rule of thumb).

Amazing Ampharos laying out some good stuff.

But FD shouldn't be a cp for lack of a better starter stage.

 

[Kuraudo]

I can't believe people are actually considering it a CP. -_-

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I can't believe people are actually considering it a CP. -_-

your a sonic main...i wonder why...lol, jk

FD promotes some of best characters in the game. Its the best diddy stage, a great snake stage and much more. Smashville is probably more balanced than FD. Only characters with either a good air camping approach or a good projectile do well on this stage.

 

[Kuraudo]

Nah. I actually prefer stages like Yoshi's Island anyway. Except for against Yoshi players, FD's awesome for that.

Melee's neutral stages favored many characters too. For example, Yoshi's Story favored characters such as Ganondorf and Marth EXTREMELY, and yet that's a neutral instead of a CP. Melee's Final Destination is also Falco's ultimate neutral playground. Wanna make those Melee stages CPs for giving top tiers some advantages? Every character is going to do good on different stages, and Final Destination's simplicity merits it as a neutral without any logical reasoning to EVER make it a CP. Snake is amazing on Lylat Cruise. So why isn't it a CP too? Battlefield is amazing for Marth. It's practically the Marthland of neutral stages. Wanna make that a CP too?

Final Destination is the ultimate neutral stage, without any outside interference from alterations in the stage, like Smashville and its moving platform (still a great neutral stage); every stage in the game, whether it's a neutral or a CP, is going to give characters advantages over others. What can we do about that?

Nothing. Final Destination is a neutral stage, and that's all there is to it. It's Diddy's best stage, yes, but like Meta Knight complaints, does that make him unbeatable? Of course not, just gives him an edge of many on stages we play neutral on. Any good Diddy is going to be amazing on every neutral.

 

[Conti]

lol, all this commotion over FD... If you dont want to play a character on FD then BAN IT, simple fix... Plus Majority of the characters that R@PE on FD have some bad CPs,

Just think of it this way, 99% of the characters that do well on FD never get to play it as a neutral because it WILL be banned... then your left with this...

Example:
You go thru the Stage Strikes with a Diddy Main, and end up playn on Battlefield or SV... [it will 99% of the time end that way]
So No FD off the start... Here's what your looking at now for possible outcomes...

If You play Diddy 1st round on SV and Lose, They are gunna ban their worst CP stage and you just go somewhere that you feel you will win, like idk Delphino or something... If u end up winning then refer to below...

If you play diddy 1st round on SV and win, then BAN FD... what do u know problem solved... and they will bring it back to SV or BF... Diddy [or a good character for neutrals] will almost always pick a neutral [depending on the matchup]

So in conclusion... Stop complaining over FD, there's ways around it, if you dont like to play certain character on FD then Ban it or do not play it... Simple [and if u have a CP thats worse then FD for u, then idk what to tell u... other than play MK LOL Jkz [no hate on MK]]

 

[Overswarm]

Here is another solution I know has been put forth, but it never really seems to go very far in the minds of people. Custom stages.

I really do not see why custom stages are not widely considered for Brawls list of possible stages.

First reason it could work is that Smash has developed into an online community. Pretty much all connections of one reigon to another is through the internet. What typically sets the standards? Conversation on SWF. Ideas get pooled on SWF, chewed up and refined until it gets spit back out into the real world. Custom stages are things that can fit the same process. They can be duplicated easily and sent out to all people with a wii to play on. So, setting a standard with custom stages would be fairly easy to set-up I would think and spread around.

The reason I see custom stages being particularly good to use is the ability to change, modify and add variety into Smash's metagame. They can also be "fair". They could allow for much more variety in stage neutrals than any other due to extremely few hazards you can put into a custom stage.

I only see good coming from the idea of using custom stages. I really would like to hear some reasons as to why we shouldn't adapt them into the metagame of Brawl.

Overswarm: He's ahead of the curve

I'm currently running a circuit that is to end near the beginning of summer with 3 custom stages I created, 2 of which I made as starters. I removed FD as a starter.

I'll have a full report on their viability when I'm finished.

FD is in no way, shape or form unfair lol. Just strike it/ban it, it has no random factors or anything that really hinder a player.

Hahaha, what a maroon. You play Diddy, it's your best stage, of course you're for it! Random factors hindering players aren't the only thing to worry about in this game, genius!

lol, all this commotion over FD... If you dont want to play a character on FD then BAN IT,

Good idea. Now that everyone has this option, my starter list will be as follows:

FD
Rainbow Cruise
Pictochat
Halberd
Port Town Aero Dive

If you don't like it, strike/ban it!

 

[kackamee]

Overswarm: He's ahead of the curve

I'm currently running a circuit that is to end near the beginning of summer with 3 custom stages I created, 2 of which I made as starters. I removed FD as a starter.

I'll have a full report on their viability when I'm finished.



Hahaha, what a maroon. You play Diddy, it's your best stage, of course you're for it! Random factors hindering players aren't the only thing to worry about in this game, genius!



Good idea. Now that everyone has this option, my starter list will be as follows:

FD
Rainbow Cruise
Pictochat
Halberd
Port Town Aero Dive

If you don't like it, strike/ban it!

After reading all the posts. This is a really good debate. Each side has really good points and I think it'd just be best if each tournament organizer made up their own starter list. Or maybe there should be all stages leagal for starters and you stage strike them all.

 

[InfiniteBlaze]

Nah. I actually prefer stages like Yoshi's Island anyway. Except for against Yoshi players, FD's awesome for that.

Melee's neutral stages favored many characters too. For example, Yoshi's Story favored characters such as Ganondorf and Marth EXTREMELY, and yet that's a neutral instead of a CP. Melee's Final Destination is also Falco's ultimate neutral playground. Wanna make those Melee stages CPs for giving top tiers some advantages? Every character is going to do good on different stages, and Final Destination's simplicity merits it as a neutral without any logical reasoning to EVER make it a CP. Snake is amazing on Lylat Cruise. So why isn't it a CP too? Battlefield is amazing for Marth. It's practically the Marthland of neutral stages. Wanna make that a CP too?

Final Destination is the ultimate neutral stage, without any outside interference from alterations in the stage, like Smashville and its moving platform (still a great neutral stage); every stage in the game, whether it's a neutral or a CP, is going to give characters advantages over others. What can we do about that?

Nothing. Final Destination is a neutral stage, and that's all there is to it. It's Diddy's best stage, yes, but like Meta Knight complaints, does that make him unbeatable? Of course not, just gives him an edge of many on stages we play neutral on. Any good Diddy is going to be amazing on every neutral.

/thread


---

 

[Overswarm]

After reading all the posts. This is a really good debate. Each side has really good points and I think it'd just be best if each tournament organizer made up their own starter list. Or maybe there should be all stages leagal for starters and you stage strike them all.

Nah, people bring that up but that has two issues:

1. You have to lower the CP choices to be pretty ridiculously low
2. It doesn't guarantee a fair starter stage, as your starter needs to be balanced... not just "well, last one left, so it is the one we hate the least!"

The original starter list of 9:

Final Destination
Smashville
Battlefield
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Castle Siege
Delfino
Pokemon Stadium 1


This starter list was PERFECT.

Except for a few problems with Delfino.

See, Delfino brings about what I call "non traditional play". While non-traditional play is okay and actually preferred (it means there is variance in play, and that is good), it is NOT okay for a starter 9/10 times.

Because Delfino has water, this lead to characters like DK, Ike, Ness, etc., being able to camp the water parts of the transformation and/or get really crazy gimp spikes due to the physics of water in Brawl. There were also several walls which lead to several CG and d-tilt infinites, again resulting in odd low % kills. AND there were walk-offs that resulted in more low % deaths and camping.

See what I'm getting at?

The stage was fair. After all, with 9 starters characters like Ike, D3, etc., etc., loved striking to it so they could abuse their spikes, CGs, and whatever. Delfino, believe it or not, was probably the most popular starter stage. The issue was that Delfino didn't bring about the same type of results that other starters did, and created inconsistincies in results.

A ruleset has two goals:

1. Creating a fair playing ground for all players
2. Creating consistent results

If every tournament was played on Hyrule Temple and New Pork City, it might have consistent results but wouldn't be a fair playing ground. If every tournament was played with Delfino as a potential first stage, it might be a fair playing ground but would create inconsistent results. That's bad.

So, after getting rid of Delfino due to too many zany things happening...

We needed an odd number!

So now we have to get rid of another stage!

This went on for a while, just little reasons to whittle down stages... which resulted in THIS monstrosity seen in a few dumb regions:

Starter list:
FDestination
BField
SVille

If you're playing a region that has that starter list, set it on fire. The venue, not the list.

Some use this list:

FD
BF
SV
LCruise (or PS1)
YIsland


That's better, right?

Well, not really. You need at least 7 for a good starter list, no matter what your stages are.

With the list of 5 above, you still see dominance of FD/BF/SV, and those three stages basically support the same type of characters.




So, imma makin customs.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

haha that post about melee's starters almost falls exactly into what AA wants. If there is a stage like final destination that favors match ups so much then there should be other stages to favor the other side who are hindered by FD.

Melee FD favors falco so melee yoshi's favors ganon and marth.

 

[Overswarm]

Melee's neutral stages favored many characters too. For example, Yoshi's Story favored characters such as Ganondorf and Marth EXTREMELY, and yet that's a neutral instead of a CP. Melee's Final Destination is also Falco's ultimate neutral playground. Wanna make those Melee stages CPs for giving top tiers some advantages? Every character is going to do good on different stages, and Final Destination's simplicity merits it as a neutral without any logical reasoning to EVER make it a CP. Snake is amazing on Lylat Cruise. So why isn't it a CP too? Battlefield is amazing for Marth. It's practically the Marthland of neutral stages. Wanna make that a CP too?

Melee's starter list? It was STUPID.

Melee's starter list actually determined what characters were viable. Think about that for a second.

You know why we didn't see Jiggs doing well until the very END of Melee? Because stages like DL64, Mute City, Kongo Jungle 64 and Brinstar were minority stages. Two of them weren't starters. One of them was dwarfed by the others. Our "top characters" were fairly balanced on those stages (for your FD, they get YI, for your battlefield they get PS1, etc., etc.), but no one else was gonna bust into that group very easily.

We'd later find that DL64 wasn't that great for Jiggs, but early on we thought it was amazing. Fox however... he got YS, PS1, and FD. Seriously. WTF Mangz.

Same goes for CPs. As stage #s dropped, so did character viability. People get scurred when their fox and marth don't do that well. Why do you think people are banning mute city from their ruleset? It's cuz Peach and Jiggs do well there and their characters don't. Nubs at balancing, I tell you. Nubs.

Final Destination is the ultimate neutral stage, without any outside interference from alterations in the stage, like Smashville and its moving platform (still a great neutral stage); every stage in the game, whether it's a neutral or a CP, is going to give characters advantages over others. What can we do about that?

You sounded entirely idiotic until you said "every stage in the game is going to give characters advantages over others".

In Melee, we used random. This was dumb. It meant entire sets could be determined, and your ban was always used on a "neutral" because otherwise you might get a bad one. Ouch.

We're smarter now, and use stage strike! Issue is, we need a good starter list or you get a guaranteed bad stage, and that's worse than random!

But let's fix your misconceptions before we go on:

Outside interference? That has NOTHING to do with balance, and only things to do with consistency. If you and your buddy play on pictochat 50 times and you both win 25 and then you both play on SV and both win 25 times, the consistency is the same. The stage is fair. Reacting to the stage changes is a skill. You can improve on this, and use it to help you win. Something happening on the stage changes nothing about the viability of a stage unless it creates an inconsitency in results. If anyone tells you otherwise, they are dumb.

Smashville's platform? It DOES change aspects of the game. But these aspects are controllable. Just because SV has moving parts doesn't mean FD is a better stage. You have a brain. Use it, and stop acting like you don't.

Nothing. Final Destination is a neutral stage, and that's all there is to it. It's Diddy's best stage, yes, but like Meta Knight complaints, does that make him unbeatable? Of course not, just gives him an edge of many on stages we play neutral on. Any good Diddy is going to be amazing on every neutral.

Der, it's a characters best stage? There's your first clue that it needs looking into.

So let's look into it:

First, IS it his best stage? Yes. Yes it is.
Do OTHER characters have "best" stages on starters? Arguably, yes. At the very least, pretty close, right?

So let's look deeper. We use stage striking, why don't people just strike the stage? No big deal, right?

What are Diddy's best CPs?

Final Destination, Battlefield, Smashville, Pictochat

HOLY ****ING **** THAT MONKEY GETS THREE OF HIS FOUR BEST STAGES LISTED AS STARTERS?!

No wonder this is such a problem!

Wait a minute, ICs ALSO love FD, BF, and SV! I'm seeing a pattern!

Oh, I get it. We put three stages that play in nearly the exact same fashion together and told people to whittle down a list.

That's like putting a starter list of

Final Destination
Rainbow Cruise
Frigate Orpheon

and saying it's fair because Diddy can just strike Rainbow Cruise. Of course he can, but he still gets taken to Frigate 100% of the time!

How often do you see Diddy or IC get taken to Lylat or YIsland?


This means that the "neutral" stages we have are not neutral. That is why we call them starters, and it is why we need to alter the list in some way to make it fair.

How? No one knows yet. Some people are changing starter lists and going back to the old 7 and 9, I'm doing customs, who knows what'll work. We'll see.

 

[Kuraudo]

... Do you enjoy acting like an elitist **** that looks down on others on the internet? No, really. Curious. Quit wasting your time tl;dr'ing, trying to make me sound like a ******. lol

Have fun with that. I saw this thread, had my say, and that's all there is to it. Take it how you will. Next time, don't make an *** of yourself by putting in snide remarks such as "you have a brain. use it," and the like.

I love the internet sometimes.

/outta here

Spoiler

PS; get ***** by Sonic

 

[kackamee]

The original starter list of 9:

Final Destination
Smashville
Battlefield
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Castle Siege
Delfino
Pokemon Stadium 1



So, imma makin customs.

O.o I like that list....quite a bit actually.

But anyway, every single stage has something going for one or another character. Thus being said the only way to make it absolutley fair would to be to play the same character. Plus with those many starters, you should have no problem not getting a stage that puts you in a huge dissadvantage unless it's your character.

 

[Sucumbio]

Making FD a cp instead of a starter leaves SF and BF and YI:B and then you still have enough starters, as some mid-atl region tournaments use 3 (FD, BF, SV) and then cp from there. Or if you need more than 3 add in lylat and halberd/delfino or yeah even picto/castle seige.

Neutral != Simple. Neutral = matchup-balanced which CANNOT be achieved on the simplest stages.

"Just strike it" doesn't work because you have to waste your strike on FD while still leaving BF and SV. By removing FD, you can use your strike on BF or SV, which means now you only have 1 simple stage to deal with, and the rest of the matches will take place on truer neutral stages.

EDIT: Holy **** when I came into the thread there was like no debate, now all these heavies are posting. ... Don't mind me I just passin' through ^^;

 

[Overswarm]

... Do you enjoy acting like an elitist **** that looks down on others on the internet? No, really. Curious. Quit wasting your time tl;dr'ing, trying to make me sound like a ******. lol

Have fun with that. I saw this thread, had my say, and that's all there is to it. Take it how you will. Next time, don't make an *** of yourself by putting in snide remarks such as "you have a brain. use it," and the like.

I love the internet sometimes.

/outta here

Spoiler

PS; get ***** by Sonic

You just posted that FD was balanced and fair and you didn't expect to get made fun of?

 

[kackamee]

You just posted that FD was balanced and fair and you didn't expect to get made fun of?

I don't agree that ANY stage is 100% fair unless your playing the same character because it isn't. But FD is definatley more fair then most of the current CPs.

 

[Overswarm]

I don't agree that ANY stage is 100% fair unless your playing the same character because it isn't. But FD is definatley more fair then most of the current CPs.

incorreeeeeeeeect.

It is completely flat and long and has nothing in it at all to alter how the game is played via base traits.

That is: projectiles + grabs = the way of FD

If your character has a bad projectile and/or grab game, you are bad on FD. If you have a good projectile and/or grab game, you can be good on FD.

D3
Falco
IC
Diddy

OH SHI- O_O

 

[kackamee]

incorreeeeeeeeect.

It is completely flat and long and has nothing in it at all to alter how the game is played via base traits.

That is: projectiles + grabs = the way of FD

If your character has a bad projectile and/or grab game, you are bad on FD. If you have a good projectile and/or grab game, you can be good on FD.

D3
Falco
IC
Diddy

OH SHI- O_O

But SV is just FD with a moving platform. Which doesn't help for anything except camping. Now in turn lets take Falco. Falco can very much so reach that platform and shoot a lazer at whatever may be on it, above it, or below it.

Also some stages with platforms are hinderences. I've had countless times of people playing character (mostly TL players) and end up getting hit by my IC's U air or something of the like because they landed where a platform is. Or couldn't throw something at me because a platform was there.

 

[Overswarm]

I do not see your point

 

[kackamee]

O.o I was trying to say, that if FD has a preference for characters like Diddy and Falco and IC's, BF has a dissadvantage for characters like TL and others who can't use projectiles from the air as effectivley just because of the platforms. I'm sure other stages have them too, but I don't want to list every single one @.@

 

[napZzz]

it sounds like amazing ampharos just cant beat ice climbers and wants FD to be a CP.

but I sort of agree with it being a cp, because when you think of it, FD is the only stage of its type in the game, with no platforms, perfectly flat, long and big, randomly benefitting certain characters and what not I guess. I'd rather see it as a CP sometime soon with a different stage as a neutral.

 

[Overswarm]

If you're saying that every stage has different factors... I agree?

 

[kackamee]

If you're saying that every stage has different factors... I agree?

Yeah, then why are you pressuring so hard for FD to be a CP? Instead of some place like Lylat?

 

[Overswarm]

Yeah, then why are you pressuring so hard for FD to be a CP? Instead of some place like Lylat?

Because FD is the best stage ever for some characters AND it is incredibly similar to two already existing stages in the starter list, as evidenced by several characters 3 tourney stages being FD, SV, BF.

 

[kackamee]

Because FD is the best stage ever for some characters AND it is incredibly similar to two already existing stages in the starter list, as evidenced by several characters 3 tourney stages being FD, SV, BF.

Oh...well then...I agree with you. Erm...compramise wins this match

I think the 7, or even 9 stage starter list would fix that. Don't you guys in the Brawl backroom discuss stuff like that?

 

[Overswarm]

We do. There are different mentalities that clash, but AZ has done a good job of switching things up so now more stuff will get done.

Unfortunately, many have stepped away from the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"mentality and it has hurt many regions.

But yeah, I'm a big advocate for 7 / 9 starters.

 

[kackamee]

We do. There are different mentalities that clash, but AZ has done a good job of switching things up so now more stuff will get done.

Unfortunately, many have stepped away from the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"mentality and it has hurt many regions.

But yeah, I'm a big advocate for 7 / 9 starters.

You've greatly convinced me, atleast. I'd rather have 7/9 starters then have FD be a CP.

 

[Overswarm]

FD can still fit as a starter with other stages balancing it out and the right number of starters, yes.

 

[Holty]

Yeah, then why are you pressuring so hard for FD to be a CP? Instead of some place like Lylat?

Lylat is neutral/CP and often classed as a CP (from my tourny experience).

 

[kackamee]

More times then not I see as a neutral, when I'd definatley prefer a place like halberd.

 

[Vlade]

As long as stage striking exists with an odd number then it's a viable neutral. A region in Australia took it out of the starter list though because they only wanted 3 neutrals, and kept Battlefield, Smashville and Yoshi's while taking out FD. They took out FD instead of Yoshi's because they believed that if they had kept FD certain characters would have too much advantage, essentially defeating the purpose of starting with neutrals.

 

[kackamee]

As long as stage striking exists with an odd number then it's a viable neutral. A region in Australia took it out of the starter list though because they only wanted 3 neutrals, and kept Battlefield, Smashville and Yoshi's while taking out FD. They took out FD instead of Yoshi's because they believed that if they had kept FD certain characters would have too much advantage, essentially defeating the purpose of starting with neutrals.

...That isn't exactly right. For the Australian example a Falco player could just always strike Yoshi's and still be at an advantage to someone.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Just to wonder about one thing do you really think that Smashville is a less fair neutral than Final Destination?

To be honest, bringing up melee as a reason for FD being more neutral than brawl does not make that much sense. Melee isn't as campy as brawl, it is much easier to approach in melee, and air camping is much less broken than in brawl. You can see this from the fact that there are a lot of matches in brawl that get decided by time.

Besides the point, I can argue just like many others that FD wasn't the best neutral in melee, but rather it be PS1. The reason why PS1 isn't as neutral as it used to be in melee is due to the different edges (similar to FD comparisons) and due to the new windmill.

I am also for the other starters being added.

 

[kackamee]

My friend bought up an interesting thing about the 9 list.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfoYVY6nkFE 3:40

 

[MJG]

FD can be a beneficial stage for certain characters (OBVIOUSLY)

And your statement about projectile characters on BF is wrong. People know that some stages are bad for them, and they actually learn how to play on these stages (who would have thought that). BF is my favorite starter next to SV actually.

 

[Llumys]

Certain characters are better on certain neutrals.

Learn to strike better; get over it.

 

[TP]

Certain characters are better on certain neutrals.

Learn to strike better; get over it.

According to OS, 3 of Diddy's 4 best stages are FD, BF, and SV. The same is true for ICs. Striking better doesn't really help at that point.

 

[Sasha]

Everyone who disagrees with Overswarm and AA seems to be a scrub saying "no johns" and not actually making any kind of valid point.

7/9 starters seems far more neutral than the current list. Can anyone give a coherent argument as to why it wouldn't be?

 

[Overswarm]

In their defense, 11 starters is more neutral than 9 and 13 more neutral than 11.

The goal of stage striking is to reduce probability of getting a bad or good starter stage for either character, assuming we are ignoring personal preference ("I hate Lylat!") and both characters strike properly.

As there are many, many potential matchups it is unlikely that we would ever actually sit down and plan it out so we can only adapt based off of what we see. We currently see the tier list literally shifting based off these starters. The rise of Falco, ICs, and Diddy in contrast to characters like Wario is explained primarily by our starters and CP choices limiting the former's weaknesses and the latter's strengths.

So while you may say "9 is great", what would your response to "why not 11" be?

My personal choice is to add additional stages until we get a neutral stage (meaning neither likes/dislikes it based on character, or at least to such a small degree it is irrelevant) and then be done.