Why do people think Charizard sucks?

[Onxy]

Ivy's Nair is a miracle worker. It's so good IMO, that it's on par with its Bair.

 

[Hydde]

i was talking about chars`s

Ivy back air and neutral are deifinitely good!.

 

[Retro Gaming]

In my opinion, Nair is a pretty good retreating move, especially if you do jabs to cover your landing (lagless).

I like the longness of it, though. Pulling it out versus disjoints just isn't very helpful, though.

 

[Onxy]

Charizard's aerial game is sweet, but his size doesn't help. His Nair is for when they are practically inside of you.

 

[Hydde]

I use char`s nair to chase rollers...u know those annoying roll to dsmash spammers? well it usually works for me. For eaxmple... i try to predict or follow his roll and do a short hoped nair in his head...withoutfast falling it.
Like u said... i lasts so long that almost always i hit them.

I short words... it could be used kinda like ivy´s,,, because it has more range. Sadly is not so strong and doesnt punish shieldslike ivy`s... but i has its uses.

Charizard's aerial game is sweet, but his size doesn't help. His Nair is for when they are practically inside of you.

yeh!!

 

[Charizard92]

OK, for those who don't know this thread when I made it, the point was to ask why there is a weird consensus that Charizard is the worst of the three. Among PTs, the Question is quite obvious, he doesn't, he's just large. People wanted me to morph this into a tactical discussion but I decided to make a different thread to cover that. If you want to talk Charizard strategy, dig that up, but if you really want to ask this Question, Charizard is a large character, and general Bias against them has lead to a bias against Charizard as well, but this is malformed. Please, let this thread die, it serves no more purpose now and despite the fact that this is my very first thread, I don't want to keep responding to something that is already out of my head and supposed to be dead several times over.

 

[shboke]

tis different charizard is my favorite squirtle and ivy are tired in second, but idk who i can say is the BEST. they are al the best at different times for me like say this happened in a best of 3
Charizard is always my starter(i play on GB so 4 stock)
charizard took off 2 stock and did about 80 percent on the third stock and died...squirtle took one, and ivy took one.
match 2: charizard got took en down fast squirtle died fast...ivy came in and took away 3 stocks very fast, and i ad to switch to charizard, where he was killed fast, soon after so was squirtle.
match 3:Charizard did bad...only one stock, squirtle was in and very very very very easy took 3 stock and won me the match.

so each are different

 

[Charizard92]

OK, since a thread has been made disproving my belief, continue with this thread. This should be enough evidence against the "all of PT's Pokemon suck" theory.

 

[smaci92]

I <3 charzard...my favorite...and he doesn't suck...

 

[Miles.]

I dont love Charizard, I just love Rocksmash.

 

[Kant]

Charizard is really really easy for Falco to laserlock.


Like, he doesn't even have to time it, if you're laying down, and he shoots you, let the lol's begin.

 

[Charizard92]

OK, Problems with Falco was a given, along with much of the upper tier cast. However, think about it, most characters hate Falco.

 

[lax guy5]

Because they're one of em' crazy teenagers with their Hip hop and crazy ring tones. **** kids.

By the way, Charizard is slightly faster then Pikachu.

Haha! I loled pretty hard at that.

Anyways, Idk why they think he sucks. He's the only Pokemon I use and is very powerful.

 

[Charizard92]

Well, due to the fatigue mechanic, most PT mainers frown upon using only one Pokemon, but most do agree that you can get away with using two (Which is great with Yoshi 'cause Yoshi creams Squirtle, for example). However, it is not impossible to do so, you just have to take three stocks out of the opponent fast.

 

[Hydde]

also for exmpale in matches were the opponent have powefull fire attacks.

Is ridiculous how fast Ivysaur dies against the fire smash thing from GW and snake´s Fsmash. Theycan take in out in 50% and snake has killed my ivy in like 25% or maybe less.

Against GW, prefer to use charizard, because fsmash spammin from GW is just too cruel for ivy.

 

[Ryusuta]

The main problem I find with Charizard is that he can't fight opponents directly below him worth ANYthing, particularly in the air. His down air and neutral air are really the only things that have a chance, and neither of them are exactly his most celebrated attacks by any stretch of the imagination.

And honestly, he can sometimes be more gimpable than Ivysaur; forward air and Rock Smash notwithstanding. His up B in particular needs to die. Any move in which you can hit them directly at 50% and they can recover and attack you back before you land needs to be reevaluated.

This isn't to say that Charizard is bad. But let's be serious about it. Ivysaur has got his projectile and disjointed hitboxes. Squirtle has his pokes and edge guarding. Charizard really has to count on his tilts and forward air (and the occasional prayer that the opponent is dumb enough to walking to a Rock Smash or forward smash attack), and is easily the most comboable of the three. I love Charizard, and he's always been one of my favorite Pokemon; but let's call a spade a spade here.

 

[Charizard92]

The main problem I find with Charizard is that he can't fight opponents directly below him worth ANYthing, particularly in the air. His down air and neutral air are really the only things that have a chance, and neither of them are exactly his most celebrated attacks by any stretch of the imagination.

And honestly, he can sometimes be more gimpable than Ivysaur; forward air and Rock Smash notwithstanding. His up B in particular needs to die. Any move in which you can hit them directly at 50% and they can recover and attack you back before you land needs to be reevaluated.

This isn't to say that Charizard is bad. But let's be serious about it. Ivysaur has got his projectile and disjointed hitboxes. Squirtle has his pokes and edge guarding. Charizard really has to count on his tilts and forward air (and the occasional prayer that the opponent is dumb enough to walking to a Rock Smash or forward smash attack), and is easily the most comboable of the three. I love Charizard, and he's always been one of my favorite Pokemon; but let's call a spade a spade here.

Yeah, well, you forgot Flamethrower and the grab game. In fact, Charizard's grab game is the most important strategy he has. Also, you are forgetting the double air jump, glide, and the fact that Fly has super armor. Yeah, the gimp thing, remember that Fair isn't Charizard's best Gimp move, Bair and Dair work much better.

 

[Ryusuta]

Yeah, well, you forgot Flamethrower and the grab game. In fact, Charizard's grab game is the most important strategy he has.

I didn't forget, I just didn't mention it. There are a lot of pros to Charizard, but I was focusing on his cons, which I believe outweigh them.

Also, you are forgetting the double air jump, glide, and the fact that Fly has super armor. Yeah, the gimp thing, remember that Fair isn't Charizard's best Gimp move, Bair and Dair work much better.

Not gimping OTHERS. I mean Charizard HIMSELF can be extraordinarily easy to gimp by many characters, and when he's returning, his only real protection are his foward air, his turn-around back air, and his specials; none of which are particularly intimidating to the better gimpers out there. Heck even Mario can screw around with Charizard a lot of the time, and his gimping game has dropped like crazy since Melee.

 

[Sosuke]

Who the **** thinks Charzard sucks?!?
Everyone I know thinks hes the best out of the 3 and I agree. =P

 

[Ryusuta]

Note that for the record, I myself have never once said (and certainly don't think) that Charizard sucks. But once again, his weaknesses are rather glaring.

 

[Sosuke]

Note that for the record, I myself have never once said (and certainly don't think) that Charizard sucks. But once again, his weaknesses are rather glaring.

Uhh... what weaknesses does he have again? >_>

 

[BlackWaltzX]

Charizard loses to people who are fast and juggle heavies like Olimar.
He's good otherwise and I don't see him being gimped easily at all. Probably the worst out of the three, but he can get some good KO moves out there.

 

[Leon945]

I don't main the pokemon trainer but I like to use him and I like Ivysaur better than Charizard but I like him better than I like Squirtle

 

[Charizard92]

Charizard loses to people who are fast and juggle heavies like Olimar.
He's good otherwise and I don't see him being gimped easily at all. Probably the worst out of the three, but he can get some good KO moves out there.

Squirtle's the worst of the three, Ivysaur and Charizard are pretty close, so (until NSlider gets the matchup chart completed [NSlider, we need to talk about more characters, NOW!])I'm not entirely sure who's the better one (Hoping Charizard). The caught by the speedy (especially Metaknight, Shiek, ZSS, Fox, Cfalcon, and Sonic, who are faster than him in running speed) and the juggled easily are the glaring weakness. He is rather hard to gimp, his recovery is in fact above average and all his aerials (outside Dair, which isn't that good at defending yourself, but gimping) execute fast, which helps push anyone away. Not to mention fly, which has super armor (a move that prevents knockback, even from something as lethal as Marth's Final Smash [someone has done that, not sure where the video is, but there is a video somewhere]). Charizard's recovery is Above average (consider Falco's as average, it's above that at least) and the most glaring weakness is his size (I tried making a pros and cons thread, but the original purpose was rather stupid and it has died, I support any person who considers remaking it).

 

[Ryusuta]

It really depends on what character you're up against. Different characters excel in different matches, and I wouldn't say that any of them are without merit.

And I definitely wouldn't discount Squirtle's poking game, his throws, and his air-to-air game, which can all be exceptional against bigger targets. Squirtle is by no means a slouch; he just has a lot of trouble landing a big killing hit.

 

[Charizard92]

Well, ask most regulars here and you should know by now that Squirtle is the LEAST reliable of the three, which translates to being the worst. Squirtle's air game is fine and all, but he still doesn't have a good matchup yet. Link looks like a good canidate, but until Nslider gets onto that (Nslider, get onto that, NOW!!!), we won't know.

 

[Ryusuta]

Sorry, but I don't buy into argumentum ad populum, even if that were the case. While I would say that Squirtle is by no means my favorite, I wouldn't call him even slightly unreliable and I think it's laughable to say that he has no good match-ups.

 

[Charizard92]

Yeah, unfortunately, that was the popular thought several months ago, before I joined, why do you think I made this thread? Times change, First Squirtle was the best, now he's the least reliable. PT was destined to be high tier, and now Mid tier is rosy. Charizard was slow, and now we know for sure he's not. We know different things now than several months ago, and now if you ask most people here, they'll say something similar to what I said.

 

[Ryusuta]

Yeah, unfortunately, that was the popular thought several months ago, before I joined, why do you think I made this thread? Times change, First Squirtle was the best, now he's the least reliable.

Neither of those statements are true. For one thing, the character never changed. He's always been the same. PERCEPTIONS of the character have changed.

PT was destined to be high tier, and now Mid tier is rosy.

I don't remember Pokemon Trainer EVER being high tier.

Charizard was slow, and now we know for sure he's not. We know different things now than several months ago, and now if you ask most people here, they'll say something similar to what I said.

Again, I'm not interested in putting it up to a vote. That doesn't mean anything. Even if 500 people said that something was the case, it wouldn't make it so. If you say "Squirtle is unreliable because he can't do this and this," or "Squirtle is unreliable because characters can do this and this to him," that's one thing. But again, it is a logical fallacy to say "Squirtle is unreliable because people that use him say he is."

If we're going to discuss this, let's discuss this. Let's not get into this "He said, she said," stuff.

 

[Samuelson]

Cons: He's a big target, he can't deal with spam that well, he can get chain grabbed pretty easily, he has mediocre aerials, he has to deal with fatigue (even though all other PT characters do, it's still a con compared to all the other characters in the game), a lot of his kill moves are slow and predictable

Pros: He has good recovery, he's strong, he's heavy so he can live till high percents, he has fast running speed, he has good grabs, his fire is a good projectile

 

[Hydde]

yeah sadly his sisze is his weakness. He is too exposed against the crazy hitboxes brawl has... but well in truth that is his only real weakness. Sadly..it counts a lot. But like u said... he is realible, and a lot.

 

[Onxy]

Charizard sucks..................................for me that is, I can't use him well at all.

 

[Charizard92]

Onxy, people can read the second part of your statement. And Orion, face it, perceptions do shift, yours of Squirtle hasn't shifted as fast.

 

[Ryusuta]

And Orion, face it, perceptions do shift, yours of Squirtle hasn't shifted as fast.

Is condescension what you resort to when you don't actually have something to say?

 

[Charizard92]

... Can we just say that Squirtle is not the best of the three, he outright fails to Yoshi, YOSHI! (Proof, go check the match-up thread)

 

[typh]

honestly from what i've read here most of you don't know how to use squirtle correctly

 

[Steeler]

i'm interested in seeing what typh as to say ;D

 

[Ryusuta]

... Can we just say that Squirtle is not the best of the three, he outright fails to Yoshi, YOSHI! (Proof, go check the match-up thread)

What does this prove, exactly? Even Meta Knight has an even match-up against Yoshi because of his chain grab and grab release spike. Yoshi is by NO means the measuring stick of a "bad" character, and has several good match-ups. Although he's bottom tier, he's a PROVISIONALLY bottom tier (like Link) and is in no way helpless. I'm a Yoshi mainer (even more so than Pokemon Trainer), and I know all too well that Yoshi gets a lot of undeserved flack. The main thing going against him - like Link - is tournament results; not anything specifically terrible about the character itself or his match-ups.

Squirtle having an even-to-bad match against Captain Falcon is more of a statement, if you really need me to make your own arguments FOR you.

And once again, you still haven't demonstrably shown exactly how Squirtle is so terrible. Saying "Well, these guys over here say he is," is NOT - I repeat, NOT - a valid point, nor is saying "Well, you just don't get it."

For that matter, for all the talk you have about "everyone" thinking Squirtle sucks, you sure seem to be the only one saying anything about it. Again, though, it doesn't matter if one person or one THOUSAND people say something; that in and of itself means nothing.

I will concede that I don't consider Squirtle to be the best of the three in general, however.

 

[Steeler]

squirtle in general has the worst matchups.

 

[Ryusuta]

Absolutely true. You'll get no argument from me, there.