~ Why Brawl isn't as competitive as it could be ~

[Oracle]

I vote for kevin closing the thread, as no one has responded to me

Also Stev is right. There is no feasible way to make items fair.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I just said it didn't matter how small the effect is. It is still random, and can in fact ruin a match. You are approaching. banana. You trip. IC's chaingrab you to death.

banana peels might not be a good idea, as the above poster said

That's not how the banana works. They only cause you to trip if you or your opponent picks it up. It doesn't cause you to trip on spawn.

You need to pick up a banana before anyone trips. BlueTerrorist is a smart guy because he actually uses his brains before writing. Don't throw out "facts" on random, if you don't even know them.

This thread better see some valid discussion quick before I close because its basically both sides ignoring each other and saying the same thing over and over again.

And where am I ignoring anybody? I actually responded to most arguments in this thread. There's plenty of valid discussion...just because some people are ******** and state the same (wrong) "facts" over and over doesn't mean you need to close it. Many topics are much more stupid and redundant (the whole MK ban topic) ... this topic actually has a purpose (even though most people - including yourself - like to ignore that).

This is this thread http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200279 all over again.

So this is the AiB ruleset? It's not quite the same though...and there are lots of things I disagree with.

Don't forget that the opposite might hold true as well. An already bad matchup or decent matchup could turn incredibly 1 sided.

And what exactly changes then? There are plenty of one sided match-up's already. Also you said "could". Why not try it out and be sure about it?

Also, someone mentioned how you have to fight people for items. Well the only item that I think that's actually the most accurate is the smashball because it takes multiple hits so that if it spawns next to someone, they're not necessarily going to get it. We all saw what that item did at Evo, so I won't go into it.

You don't even need to go into it as the Smash Ball isn't part of this discussion.

But the fact remains, that there will be too many times where items will favor a particular player in a match, and then consecutive matches, and so on, that one player thus gains a significant advantage.

And since this is the better player you're talking about everything is fine.

Like i said earlier, the only way to make items fair is to give the same amount to each player, which is impossible.

Or you let both players fight and the more successful gets the item as a well deserved reward. It's not that unfair.

I vote for kevin closing the thread, as no one has responded to me

3 people did...look above

Also Stev is right. There is no feasible way to make items fair.

The better player is more likely to get an item. What's unfair about that?

 

[DanGR]

So most people either agree that Brawl isn't really competitive or at least not as competitive as Melee. While the former isn't true and the latter isn't necessarily bad I still want to explain why Brawl is not as competitive as it could actually be. Brawl actually still has potetial to become more competitive than it is right now.

Gheb, I'd like you or someone to define what you think the word 'competitive' really means. Webster's defines it as the following:
1 : relating to, characterized by, or based on competition.

By that definition, a game can't be more competitive than another. A game is competitive or it isn't. It can either be based around competition or it can't. In that respect, Brawl is a competitive game and it isn't any "less competitive" than Melee.

Someone once told me that a game is more competitive when the player with the most skill is more likely to win. If that's the case, and being "more competitive" is this community's goal, then you might as well give up Smash because there are many, many other "more competitive" games out there- Starcraft for example.

 

[Morrigan]

So this is the AiB ruleset? It's not quite the same though...and there are lots of things I disagree with.

It's the AllBrawl (do not confuse with AiB) ruleset. Yeah, it has some ridiculous aspects. I pointed out that thread because they had that big discussion about items, just like here.
Anyway, I don't disagree on the way you think, but I only see this as a possible just-for-fun alternate ruleset (just like AllBrawl), you should ask AlphaZealot about it since he played using it.

 

[Rain(ame)]

Okay, mainly because I REALLY don't feel like reading through 6 pages of more than likely annoying spatting, I'm going to say my piece.

Regardless of how you may feel about the items, (I can tell you put some thought in it.) it doesn't really denote competitiveness. No matter what...even if it's just ONE item, it screams casual play. I haven't ever like items to be quite honest(When I'm actually trying to play). I didn't like them in 64, HATED them in melee, and I quite hate them in Brawl as well. Items in general sway the game play. I'm sorry, and I may sound like a jerk when I say this. It doesn't matter HOW SMALL THE CHANGE IS, it's still going affect the outcome.

Also, this may sound mean, but you aren't considering a certain factor in a game. Not every match is: "Oh this player is clearly better than the other. So it won't affect the match AT ALL!!!" I'm sorry, but that's not the way this world works.

Let's talk for a minute: Let's say that we've got two...relatively even people. They play each other a lot...they go back and forth. Their matches are quite unpredictable...they go high percentage last stock in practically every match. Throw an item in there....and that skill is blurred. We wouldn't know what would have happened without that item. I don't like losing to an item....I hate it more than losing to a stage. However....I can take losing to a stage. People can actually skillfully combo someone into losing to a stage. An item, however....technically, you can't. You'd be wasting more time waiting for the item, than practicing with it. Banana peels, sandbags, Franklin badges and bunny hoods have a strange way of pissing people off when they're trying to do something and they get in the way.

Bananas- Diddy takes time to pull his banana peel out and throw it. Plus, he throws it behind him, and it's used right away. A banana peel that just sits on the floor is free pickings, and someone can use it WHENEVER they want to, Plus they can throw it in front. There is a distinct difference there. Suddenly an advantage is given.

Sandbags- Don't get me started on this thing. It pisses me off to no end. It's fun in CASUAL play, but it can really put a damper on the flow of a match. This is almost as bad as an item that falls and causes random death in Melee. (No it's not a comparison, or a bash. So don't call me out on it.) This thing can appear ANYWHERE, and it starts to take effect IMMEDIATELY. Combo hit-> Combo hit-> Sandbag -> Combo ends. Don't even say it's not possible because I've seen it. How is that making things fair?

Frankling badge- in essence....it's got the same aspect of the sandbag in that it ruins effectiveness of combos. This puts characters that rely on damage building for every aspect of the game. It tends to put certain characters at an immediate disadvantage once used. Also....this can be just picked up at some random point. Been there, done that, seen it, and again, doesn't do much for fairness.

Bunny Hood- While you may say that it doesn't change the game....it makes a character faster and lighter. Also....one can pick this item up by accident, which would add unfair randomness to the game. There really isn't much that needs to be said about this one. It can DEFINITELY make the outcome of a match turn.

Custom stages- While I do agree...it might be a good idea...think of the people that actually DON'T have wi-fi. Yes, they do exist. How about the people that rarely visit...or don't visit AiB/SWF? How will they know that this stage is supposed to be legal and a part of the ruleset. I do however....think that this suggestion is a decent one. It should be given some consideration. That doesn't mean it'll fly, but I think that something can be worked out.

Banning- Well....this is something that the Brawl hierarchy has to handle on their own. I think that certain things should be limited as opposed to banned, but that's just my input. MK is broken, yes...should he be banned? No. Planking is effing annoying, but it should be put to a limit. Chaingrabs, etc. should be put to a limit...as opposed to banning.

I have a suggestion that people should really consider. Once you've got the people there...how about you designate some judges to oversee matches? A good TO, and there are many, is capable of running a tournament and playing in one. Why can't a good TO be capable of designating judges and ensuring that there's a judge to oversee matches. Most TV setups are near each other....a judge can watch more than one match at a time. You don't need much, and make sure that they don't have matches while they're judging. It's a bit tedious, yes, but it'll discourage people from playing that way. It will also in a way force a TO to lay down the law in getting matches done on time. Also....there are people that go to tournaments and don't actually play. Get their assistance. If they don't know...educate them. I seriously think this should be considered.

I have to be honest.....the ONLY thing you've mentioned that is "scrub-ish" in any way is the massive banning issue. I could go into the reason, but I'd rather not. Why? because it's more of an opinion issue that should be kept for blogging. To be perfectly honest...the lines of fact and opinion are so well blended together on that issue....it'd be a seriously huge and vicious debate.


Also....I know I mentioned it before...but you can't just say that there is a clear "Better" and "Worse" player. I'd have to say that your argument may have held more validity it that was the case, but it isn't, always. People are always going to have that frustration of "Things would have been different without that item." You can call it an "item john", but the fact remains. Also....things can go very awkwardly for a "first encounter" between two people, as well. The truly better player may lose the first encounter, but he/she may not. Throwing items in there destroys the validity of player skill.

Items don't "add skill and tactical aspects" as people say. Again...that is just thinking shallow and cut and dry. That may just promote character changes and more stalling. You've got to realize that there are people out to break the game because they don't like it. Yes, they're going to show you exactly how broken things can be. Then what? They're going to spark the issue of banning again. Certain things are banned for a reason at the offset of things. Items are one of them. I'm not saying that you didn't bring up a point, but you're not considering EVERYTHING.

Example: Why do you think...a person (Male or female, straight or gay, doesn't matter.) who really knows about style and clothing, (Not those effing fashion buffs on TV, either) takes forever to put together ONE outfit. I had a friend that wanted to help me get a new suit. We ended up just going for the right shirt/tie combination due to money factors, but it took like 2 hours. He looked at EVERY aspect, because he wanted it to say "BOOM, here I am, and it's not what I normally do." Those two hours were worth every minute. Because it worked out SO well. (Yes, i helped to, and I can be quite exacting myself when I want to be.) People still compliment me on them when I wear it in different combos and suits.

When you take time to consider EVERYTHING, it becomes something that everyone notices and compliments. I'm sure that these things were taken into consideration a long time ago. However, I think it was said....the majority of the smash community would rather play without items. I can tell you of people that know nothing of AT's or anything at all who can't stand items. However, they'll tell you when they want to just chill and do something fun, they'll put on something ******** like all bomb-ombs and motion sensor bombs on high and go at it. It varies, but the case still remains. Again, not saying that you didn't take time to put thought into this, but there are just too many factors that don't work my friend.

I don't know if you've ever been screwed over by an item in tournament....but it's not fun. No matter how minute the factor....it will raise questions/complaints. People train to learn characters, not how to use items. (seeing as how...well...they are pretty darn obvious.) Also, I've seen that items promote camping....in which Brawl is a campy game anyway. Let's just keep that in mind, too.

I know it was long...and some things were repeated for emphasis.

 

[Mattsy]

We know that Melee is more competitive by now. We don't want to get Brawl as competitive as Melee though...just more competitive than it is now.



Why not? Stage control is a major part in Brawl and should be rewarded. Somebody who controls the stage better = more skilled player. Why shouldn't he be granted better access to items? It's not like all items destroy the opponent by throwing it at him. Some still need skill to be used.

It's not a "throw of dice" at all. Getting an item requires you to actually fight your opponent and prevent him from getting it...why shouldn't we give it a shot?



Why would he get KO'd by such an innacurate item? If the opponent really manages to hit him with a Warp Star he either

a.) made a mistake, which is bound to be punished
b.) has a very skilled opponent, who should be rewarded

Neither of these options make the game more or less competitive.



I don't know about that ruleset...do you have a link to it?



That's nothing people can't deal with honestly. A better or worse glidetoss shouldn't affect the outcome of a match, ever.



I didn't bring up Melee. I only mention that people consider it more competitive than Brawl. Mentioning why this is the case is not only redundant (as I mentioned it myself) but also irrelevant because this topic is about Brawl only.



Before you actually get the item you have to make sure your opponent can't get it by knocking him off. Getting an item as a reward isn't too much asked if the item won't have too drastic effects.

Also what items do you camp with? The only thing I can think of is the Sandbag but it can be knocked away easily.



Not if the item isn't worth it in a given situation. It's not like you can just run away without getting punished. You still need to get your opponent far away enough to make sure you get the item...and then it might not even be an item, that helps you very much.



But it's also easy to avoid, has a limite attack radius and you need to kock your opponent far away to safely get it....sounds pretty balanced to me.



But there's also skill involved as you not only have to get it safely but you also have to make perfect use of it if you want to benefit from that item. I'm not saying it does for sure but that might outweigh the random factor (especially if items are only low).



So what do you think about custom stages in competitive Brawl?



Don't be silly. This a ridcoulus match-up that obviously won't be affected by items...



But the randomness of a Banana randomly spawning doesn't have a huge effect on a match (and it will never make Falcon win against MK).

I'm going to replied to this as a whole post.

To me, there are a lot of ifs and buts here. "This might" and "this could" don't mean anything. I think you need to develop a ruleset, find some people interested and run a tournament with them, then post videos and details here.

You say "it might not overcome the randomness factor". I know something that will--playing how we play now. People enjoy it, so why change it?

Also, you say items won't have a huge effect of matchup. One may not; several will. Also, at high levels the slightest of things can make a big difference. Matches have been lost becuase of trips, and something as simple as a banana spawning in right by you can easily turn the macthup in your favour if they are at a high percentage.

 

[Oracle]

The better player is more likely to get an item. What's unfair about that?

Most likely should not happen. And that is definitely not the case. It is completely random. What happens if I'm sitting on a platform playing defensively and M2K starts to approach, but an item just happens to fall where I'm standing, and I proceed to throw it at him. I am much worse than M2k, but randomly the items happen to fall near me and not him. Could this be controlled? Of course not. It's random.

 

[Morrigan]

Ban Peach from tournament play since she can obtain items randomly then. It's not fair, right?

 

[SEXY]

Ban DeDeDe too for random item throwing too LoL~

 

[Grmo]

This is the craziest thread ever. Just because stuff gets banned doesn't mean it shouldn't be played competitively. Bananas interrupting DDD's chaingrab is unfair? In what way? The game hasn't even been out for a year, and the Brawl community is still developing everything. Most likely more stuff is going to be banned. At this point, it's not a good idea to be trying to drastically change the game anyway.

I used to agree that people were inclined to ban too much, but when you don't ban stuff, there are a lot of stupid, uncontrollable things that happen in tournament play that tournament players shouldn't have to put up with. For example, imagine if we allowed Spear Pillar to be legal in tournament. It would be ridiculous. I understand that you want to try to limit the game less, but what you have to realize is that adding things like items can limit the progress of the game. It's true that it would change the game, but it certainly would not add new layers of tactical playing. For example, some characters with worse recovery can get completely ***** by items. Or characters whos game relies on projectiles, the Franklin Badge will destroy that, and it will be something simple and random that does it rather than the player figuring out how to beat that style.

The biggest thing with this is that you're looking at an ideal and overlooking what really makes Brawl competitive-friendly in the first place. In that case, it's really not the most competitive-friendly of all fighting games, because there's a great deal of broken stuff in it already, but it still works out and people still have fun playing it, and there's still a good competitive spirit in the community, and that is something the game can't afford to lose. If you want to play with all that crazy stuff, no one is trying to stop you. It's good that you brought out your ideas like this, but it's just not a good idea. Especially the items; rewarding players just for being in a certain spot is just not practical.

EDIT: to the two posts above this, Peach and DDD are not the same as having items on in any way. True, they can obtain items in any way they want, but it doesn't have to do with their positioning and where the items drop, as they can pull them out whenever they want. The issue with having items on is that players will have to interrupt the game to go run after an item sometimes, and generally the faster or closer character wins, whereas with Peach and DDD, they're really just projectiles, and they never caused too much of a problem to the game.

Honestly people, this game has been out for long enough, and before that most of you were playing Melee competitively, or still are. You should know this by now.

Also KevinM, I wouldn't advise against closing this thread. This topic has been brought up many times in the past, and the same thing happens every time. It's not going to change anything. I think the discussion has kind of drifted off on it's own anyway, and trying to get it to come back is gonna be like beating a GnW with Kirby vs a 3-stock lead.

Spoiler

God I hate that matchup >_>

 

[Morrigan]

Ban DeDeDe too for random item throwing too LoL~

Dedede's capsule throwing can be turned off on the items menu.

 

[SEXY]

^thanks captain obvious

 

[Oracle]

That isn't game breaking. Besides, banning a character is much worse than banning items.

 

[Grmo]

The Street Fighter community would disagree. They realize that when a character is broken, it needs to go.

 

[Fletch]

Most likely should not happen. And that is definitely not the case. It is completely random. What happens if I'm sitting on a platform playing defensively and M2K starts to approach, but an item just happens to fall where I'm standing, and I proceed to throw it at him. I am much worse than M2k, but randomly the items happen to fall near me and not him. Could this be controlled? Of course not. It's random.

I can't believe that people are seriously arguing that items become part of standard competitive play. Read this, and remember that the goal of competitive play is to minimize randomness. We also don't ban characters with "random" moves because they actually have to use those moves to gain those advantages, as they are part of a moveset and not a random spawn.

 

[Oracle]

The Street Fighter community would disagree. They realize that when a character is broken, it needs to go.

But peach's randoness is not a sufficient reason to ban her.

 

[Stev]

anyone who says that the better person will get the item is an idiot. The whole reason why there is a controversy is because there are too many times where an item will coincidentally appear next to someone, giving him a huge advantage. What if the two players are equally as good? Bam! item appears, player 2 KOs player 1 because player 1 was on the other side of the screen after getting hit. THere is no "fairness" with items, and never will be, so get over it already.

 

[Oracle]

Good job stev.

Someone please come close the thread. it has no purpose now

 

[Morrigan]

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree on playing with items...

What if the two players are equally as good? Bam! item appears, player 2 KOs player 1 because player 1 was on the other side of the screen after getting hit. THere is no "fairness" with items, and never will be, so get over it already.

...but that specific situation you just presented actually contradicts your whole post.

 

[Mattsy]

Because when you're playing someone who is equally as good as you, you never get hit. *Rolls eyes*

 

[Morrigan]

What? No. He's saying that the player that launched the other one off the stage gets the item, and that makes sense to me. Basically, don't get hit or you have less chances of getting an item. Again, this is based on that specific situation he mentioned.

 

[rehab]

There's randomness in SF2. It can be random how many hits it takes to dizzy somebody, and to small (but important) extents damage is random, and when both people throw at the same time it's random who takes priority.

Wait a minute did I just make an argument for items or something screw that

 

[Lethon]

You need to pick up a banana before anyone trips. BlueTerrorist is a smart guy because he actually uses his brains before writing. Don't throw out "facts" on random, if you don't even know them.

Who says the other player can't pick it up and throw it before DDD starts his chaingrab?

You're completely ignoring the glide toss that characters like Ike can use. It could even turn a match one sided against the better player if the worse player abuses the bananas; and the match can be in Ike's favor.

Unless your definition of "competitive" includes giving random advantages to make the matchup overall more fair, banana peels are one item that should be left out.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gheb, I'd like you or someone to define what you think the word 'competitive' really means. Webster's defines it as the following:
1 : relating to, characterized by, or based on competition.

By that definition, a game can't be more competitive than another. A game is competitive or it isn't. It can either be based around competition or it can't. In that respect, Brawl is a competitive game and it isn't any "less competitive" than Melee.

Someone once told me that a game is more competitive when the player with the most skill is more likely to win. If that's the case, and being "more competitive" is this community's goal, then you might as well give up Smash because there are many, many other "more competitive" games out there- Starcraft for example.

What? I can't believe that there's no higher degree of "competitive"...I mean, Brawl is competitive right now. Why can't it be more so?

It's the AllBrawl (do not confuse with AiB) ruleset. Yeah, it has some ridiculous aspects. I pointed out that thread because they had that big discussion about items, just like here.
Anyway, I don't disagree on the way you think, but I only see this as a possible just-for-fun alternate ruleset (just like AllBrawl), you should ask AlphaZealot about it since he played using it.

Ah, I see...I confused AllBrawl with All is Brawl, how silly...AZ already commented on that and said it's "pretty fun" but I think there's the possibility of creating an alternate ruleset that's more than for fun. And even if items will never be considered at least custom stages should.

Regardless of how you may feel about the items, (I can tell you put some thought in it.) it doesn't really denote competitiveness.

It may not denote it but it doesn't necessarily prevent it either. At least not until we know for sure.

No matter what...even if it's just ONE item, it screams casual play. I haven't ever like items to be quite honest(When I'm actually trying to play). I didn't like them in 64, HATED them in melee, and I quite hate them in Brawl as well.

Everybody is free to have their own opinions ... some people may prefer the standard ruleset...and some might be dissatisfied. Why not creating an alternative ruleset for those who are bored/whatever with the regular way to play? People, who don't like it don't need to take part.

Items in general sway the game play. I'm sorry, and I may sound like a jerk when I say this. It doesn't matter HOW SMALL THE CHANGE IS, it's still going affect the outcome.

The question is not whether it affects the outcome but how it affects the outcome. Obviously, if items wouldn't affect the outcome we wouldn't need them. But why shouldn't item be considered if they reward the better player in general (If you don't understand what I mean you should read some of my previous posts...I commented on that before)?

Also it's not true that they sway the game play...if your opponent is at 120% you're not onna pick up a fire flower if you might as well KO him. Likewise you won't run after a Warp Star if you leave yourself open as a result.

Also, this may sound mean, but you aren't considering a certain factor in a game. Not every match is: "Oh this player is clearly better than the other. So it won't affect the match AT ALL!!!" I'm sorry, but that's not the way this world works.

Uhmmm...I don't quite understand that one...can please explain that closer...I can't see the sense in it or in what context I should put that paragraph.

Let's talk for a minute: Let's say that we've got two...relatively even people. They play each other a lot...they go back and forth. Their matches are quite unpredictable...they go high percentage last stock in practically every match. Throw an item in there....and that skill is blurred. We wouldn't know what would have happened without that item. I don't like losing to an item....I hate it more than losing to a stage. However....I can take losing to a stage. People can actually skillfully combo someone into losing to a stage. An item, however....technically, you can't. You'd be wasting more time waiting for the item, than practicing with it. Banana peels, sandbags, Franklin badges and bunny hoods have a strange way of pissing people off when they're trying to do something and they get in the way.

But "pissing people off" =/= deciding the outcome of a match. In the situation you just described it wouldn't matter whether a Franklin Badge or a Banana Peel spawned. None of the items would truly blur the skill because they either aren't powerful enough (Banana Peel, Sandbag etc) or are way to innacurate or risky to get (Warp Star).
Obtaining these items still require you to leave yourself open ... and in such a situation it would be a bad decision.

Bananas- Diddy takes time to pull his banana peel out and throw it. Plus, he throws it behind him, and it's used right away. A banana peel that just sits on the floor is free pickings, and someone can use it WHENEVER they want to, Plus they can throw it in front. There is a distinct difference there. Suddenly an advantage is given.

What? Diddy can throw his Bananas in front of him too after picking them up..he can pick them up more easily though (it's harder for his opponents to get it). Besides Bananas can also be picked up by the other player.

Sandbags- Don't get me started on this thing. It pisses me off to no end. It's fun in CASUAL play, but it can really put a damper on the flow of a match. This is almost as bad as an item that falls and causes random death in Melee. (No it's not a comparison, or a bash. So don't call me out on it.) This thing can appear ANYWHERE, and it starts to take effect IMMEDIATELY. Combo hit-> Combo hit-> Sandbag -> Combo ends. Don't even say it's not possible because I've seen it. How is that making things fair?

Most of this is personal opinion ... it pisses you off? You don't need to play it! Also what combos does it interrupt? I can't think of any...

Frankling badge- in essence....it's got the same aspect of the sandbag in that it ruins effectiveness of combos. This puts characters that rely on damage building for every aspect of the game. It tends to put certain characters at an immediate disadvantage once used. Also....this can be just picked up at some random point. Been there, done that, seen it, and again, doesn't do much for fairness.

Franklin Badge has exacly zero impact on combos...it also can be knocked off of the opponent.

Bunny Hood- While you may say that it doesn't change the game....it makes a character faster and lighter. Also....one can pick this item up by accident, which would add unfair randomness to the game. There really isn't much that needs to be said about this one. It can DEFINITELY make the outcome of a match turn.[/QUOETE]

I agree. Teh_spamerer already explained why it's not considerable for competitive play.

Custom stages- While I do agree...it might be a good idea...think of the people that actually DON'T have wi-fi. Yes, they do exist. How about the people that rarely visit...or don't visit AiB/SWF? How will they know that this stage is supposed to be legal and a part of the ruleset. I do however....think that this suggestion is a decent one. It should be given some consideration. That doesn't mean it'll fly, but I think that something can be worked out.

Wi-fi? What does this have to do with Custom Stages? It's easy: Somebody announces that he'll bring a Wii + Brawl setup to a tournament. Then the TO tells him (via PM or sth like that) how these stages should look like.

I have to be honest.....the ONLY thing you've mentioned that is "scrub-ish" in any way is the massive banning issue. I could go into the reason, but I'd rather not. Why? because it's more of an opinion issue that should be kept for blogging. To be perfectly honest...the lines of fact and opinion are so well blended together on that issue....it'd be a seriously huge and vicious debate.

Well...if you think so there isn't much to say. But let me explain: I'm not saying that having a ruleset without items is scrubby at all. However the reasons items aren't considered are rather scrubby...just some examples (from this topic): "It's unproffesional", "I don't like them", "Are we back in 2003?", etc...I'm not saying that everyody who plays without items is a scrub (that would obviously be ridicoulus)...I'm saying that banning items without having a good reason is scrubby.

Also....I know I mentioned it before...but you can't just say that there is a clear "Better" and "Worse" player. I'd have to say that your argument may have held more validity it that was the case, but it isn't, always. People are always going to have that frustration of "Things would have been different without that item." You can call it an "item john", but the fact remains.

You can john about everything...some people john about climbing a mountain a day before a tournament (*cough* Inui *cough*) ... but the frustration you talk about comes from players, who can't deal with items. People can deal with Banana Peel when they fight Diddy Kong but not when they appear as random items? That doesn't make sense. It's a matter of experience...few things work perfectly the first time.

Also....things can go very awkwardly for a "first encounter" between two people, as well. The truly better player may lose the first encounter, but he/she may not. Throwing items in there destroys the validity of player skill.

Does it? Or are you just saying that it does?

Items don't "add skill and tactical aspects" as people say. Again...that is just thinking shallow and cut and dry. That may just promote character changes and more stalling. You've got to realize that there are people out to break the game because they don't like it. Yes, they're going to show you exactly how broken things can be. Then what? They're going to spark the issue of banning again. Certain things are banned for a reason at the offset of things. Items are one of them. I'm not saying that you didn't bring up a point, but you're not considering EVERYTHING.

Please explain what's more broken about that than about the standard ruleset? Of you lose to a Banana you'd loose to Diddy anyways. You can't loose to a Sandbag because he can't hit you. You can loose to a Warp Star but only if you make a huge mistake which is bound to get punished in a fighting game anyways.

I know it was long...and some things were repeated for emphasis.

It was long but also worth it...you made some good point but you also didn't consider "everything". Still I appreciate the input.

I'm going to replied to this as a whole post.

To me, there are a lot of ifs and buts here. "This might" and "this could" don't mean anything. I think you need to develop a ruleset, find some people interested and run a tournament with them, then post videos and details here.

You say "it might not overcome the randomness factor". I know something that will--playing how we play now. People enjoy it, so why change it?

Also, you say items won't have a huge effect of matchup. One may not; several will. Also, at high levels the slightest of things can make a big difference. Matches have been lost becuase of trips, and something as simple as a banana spawning in right by you can easily turn the macthup in your favour if they are at a high percentage.

Colored for emphasis: I don't want the rules to change. I said it more than once: There should be an alternative ruleset that considers certain items and custom stages. I don't even want this to replace the standard rules myself...I just want people to realize that we don't use all the options this game offers...why should we reduce ourselves to one ruleset if there are so many possibilities?

Most likely should not happen. And that is definitely not the case. It is completely random. What happens if I'm sitting on a platform playing defensively and M2K starts to approach, but an item just happens to fall where I'm standing, and I proceed to throw it at him. I am much worse than M2k, but randomly the items happen to fall near me and not him. Could this be controlled? Of course not. It's random.

Can you deal with that item or is it too good? If it's too good (means: Little risk vs high reward) then it will be banned. If it's not too good then people learn to deal with it in no time (and we should think that M2K learns things like that fast enough) and a certain ammount of skill is involved which might outweigh the random factor.

This is the craziest thread ever. Just because stuff gets banned doesn't mean it shouldn't be played competitively. Bananas interrupting DDD's chaingrab is unfair? In what way? The game hasn't even been out for a year, and the Brawl community is still developing everything. Most likely more stuff is going to be banned. At this point, it's not a good idea to be trying to drastically change the game anyway.

Drastically change? Since when is it a drastic idea to creat an alternate ruleset, which is mostly experimental (at this point)? Also I'm not saying it shouldn't be played competitively because things are banned.

I used to agree that people were inclined to ban too much, but when you don't ban stuff, there are a lot of stupid, uncontrollable things that happen in tournament play that tournament players shouldn't have to put up with. For example, imagine if we allowed Spear Pillar to be legal in tournament. It would be ridiculous.

Yes, it would be ridicoulus. Certain - broken - things need to be banned, there's no doubt about that.

I understand that you want to try to limit the game less, but what you have to realize is that adding things like items can limit the progress of the game.

It can limit the progress, yes. But this doesn't need to be the case.

It's true that it would change the game, but it certainly would not add new layers of tactical playing. For example, some characters with worse recovery can get completely ***** by items. Or characters whos game relies on projectiles, the Franklin Badge will destroy that, and it will be something simple and random that does it rather than the player figuring out how to beat that style.

A Franklin Badge can be knocked off. It won't stop the use of projectiles...yes it does make it more situational and force the player to attack. And? That's another layer of tactical play...a character like Falco can't just rely on his lasers anymore. So no, it's not "simple and random".

The biggest thing with this is that you're looking at an ideal and overlooking what really makes Brawl competitive-friendly in the first place. In that case, it's really not the most competitive-friendly of all fighting games, because there's a great deal of broken stuff in it already, but it still works out and people still have fun playing it, and there's still a good competitive spirit in the community, and that is something the game can't afford to lose. If you want to play with all that crazy stuff, no one is trying to stop you. It's good that you brought out your ideas like this, but it's just not a good idea. Especially the items; rewarding players just for being in a certain spot is just not practical.

You don't reward them for standing in a certain spot...the spot where items spawn is random. Also the player with the better stage control (=better, more skilled player) gets the item more than the other player (and even then the opponent won't get an item that gives him an advantage instantly, if he ever gets the item out of pure luck) as a reward. The better player being rewarded for controlling the stage is neither unfair nor uncompetitive.

Honestly people, this game has been out for long enough, and before that most of you were playing Melee competitively, or still are. You should know this by now.

Items in Melee =/= Items in Brawl

I can't believe that people are seriously arguing that items become part of standard competitive play. Read this, and remember that the goal of competitive play is to minimize randomness. We also don't ban characters with "random" moves because they actually have to use those moves to gain those advantages, as they are part of a moveset and not a random spawn.

anyone who says that the better person will get the item is an idiot. The whole reason why there is a controversy is because there are too many times where an item will coincidentally appear next to someone, giving him a huge advantage. What if the two players are equally as good? Bam! item appears, player 2 KOs player 1 because player 1 was on the other side of the screen after getting hit. THere is no "fairness" with items, and never will be, so get over it already.

*facepalm*

THE ITEMS THAT ARE CONSIDERED DON'T GIVE ANYONE A HUGE ADVANTAGE!!!

If that was the case the item shouldn't be considered. A banana doesn't give anybody a huge advantage....a sandbag doesn't give anyone a huge advantage.

 

[cutter]

There is a difference between randomness in a game that doesn't affect the outcome that much like G&W's side B (which is an awful move to begin with) and randomness that pretty much changes the entire game completely like items do.

 

[Lethon]

Just making sure, read my post before yours. Should give a good reason to not include bananas.

edit: nvm, I'll copy it here


Who says the other player can't pick it up and throw the banana first before DDD starts his chaingrab?

You're completely ignoring the glide toss that characters like Ike can use. It could even turn a match one sided against the better player if the worse player abuses the bananas; and the match can be in Ike's favor.

Unless your definition of "competitive" includes giving random advantages to make the matchup overall more fair, banana peels are one item that should be left out.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

There is a difference between randomness in a game that doesn't affect the outcome that much like G&W's side B (which is an awful move to begin with) and randomness that pretty much changes the entire game completely like items do.

Except that these items don't change "the entire game completely".

Just making sure, read my post before yours. Should give a good reason to not include bananas.

edit: nvm, I'll copy it here


Who says the other player can't pick it up and throw the banana first before DDD starts his chaingrab?

You're completely ignoring the glide toss that characters like Ike can use. It could even turn a match one sided against the better player if the worse player abuses the bananas; and the match can be in Ike's favor.

Unless your definition of "competitive" includes giving random advantages to make the matchup overall more fair, banana peels are one item that should be left out.

I'm sorry...I didn't see your post the first time because the topic is moving fast right now.

Bananas can't be abused because items are set on low and Bananas dissapear rather quickly. You get maybe two or three bananas in a match, if you're ridicoulusly lucky. Even then you cannot abuse them. The only chracter who can abuse them is Diddy Kong because he can use DownB

 

[Lethon]

Hmm, if they are set to low, it's seems fine.

But if you can keep recatching the banana after the toss, then I dunno.

Should the smoke ball item thing be considered?

 

[Mattsy]

What? No. He's saying that the player that launched the other one off the stage gets the item, and that makes sense to me. Basically, don't get hit or you have less chances of getting an item. Again, this is based on that specific situation he mentioned.

But it's not going to appear whenever you knock someone off the stage; I could knock you off three times in a row and no items appears, but when you knock me off you get a banana skin which you then pick up, dash to the edge and throw down into my, let's say up-b as Diddy (irony, lol). This screws up Diddy's recovery big time, and you then use that time to gimp the Diddy as he's trying to recover once more.

Colored for emphasis: I don't want the rules to change. I said it more than once: There should be an alternative ruleset that considers certain items and custom stages. I don't even want this to replace the standard rules myself...I just want people to realize that we don't use all the options this game offers...why should we reduce ourselves to one ruleset if there are so many possibilities?

You ignored my other points... :/

The two rulesets depict two different ways of playing the game COMPLETELY. We aren't reducing ourselves to one possibility in the same way a Lucario isn't reducing himself to one possibility by using only fair and dair to gimp when he could be using nair (or uair xD).

I reiterate: "I think you need to develop a ruleset, find some people interested and run a tournament with them, then post videos and details here."

Also I'd like your reply to the rest of my points xP

 

[Stev]

People still don't get it. Lets say its a Marth ditto on battlefield. Player 1 just KOd player 2, but still has a relatively high percentage. As soon as player 2 spawns back, a fan appears on the top platform. Not only can player 2 ues his invincibility to get it, but he would get it anyways based on its spawn location. Player 2 lands a nair on player 1, sending him off the stage. As player 1 floats back, player 2 is in a unique position because if the fan hits, player 1 can't get back far enough to recover. If player 1 dodges, he's too low to up-b. Sound fair? Because I don't think so, and many other people don't.

The only thing that should still be in discussion in this thread is the use of custom stages, which i really don't think is a porblem. The only "issue" that people are bringing up is people not "knowing" that a stage is in a tourny. Well guess waht, maybe they should read the tourny rules. Besides, after that tourny, they can prepare themselves. How many people have wii's yet can't access the internet. It doesn't have to be downloadable content if you can make it yourself (which was how it was created in teh first place).

 

[teh_spamerer]

People still don't get it. Lets say its a Marth ditto on battlefield. Player 1 just KOd player 2, but still has a relatively high percentage. As soon as player 2 spawns back, a fan appears on the top platform. Not only can player 2 ues his invincibility to get it, but he would get it anyways based on its spawn location. Player 2 lands a nair on player 1, sending him off the stage. As player 1 floats back, player 2 is in a unique position because if the fan hits, player 1 can't get back far enough to recover. If player 1 dodges, he's too low to up-b. Sound fair? Because I don't think so, and many other people don't.

The fan is banned by ISP lawl

 

[Morrigan]

People still don't get it. Lets say its a Marth ditto on battlefield. Player 1 just KOd player 2, but still has a relatively high percentage. As soon as player 2 spawns back, a fan appears on the top platform. Not only can player 2 ues his invincibility to get it, but he would get it anyways based on its spawn location. Player 2 lands a nair on player 1, sending him off the stage. As player 1 floats back, player 2 is in a unique position because if the fan hits, player 1 can't get back far enough to recover. If player 1 dodges, he's too low to up-b. Sound fair? Because I don't think so, and many other people don't.

Lol, you just presented the weirdest example ever regarding Fans. I mean, you could have said "player 1 kills player 2, P1 is at high %, fan appears, P1 grabs it, P1 takes P2 from 0% to over 70 or more %." Anyway I don't think the Fan would be allowed if there were any item tourneys. That thing is just broken.

 

[Circa]

I have a bit of a reason for at least the banana peel to not be included.

As many people have stated, the appearance of items is random. I know you've tried to argue why this doesn't really change the gameplay considering "better" or "worse" players, but for the banana peel, it really does make it a huge issue. If I can remember correctly (although it has been a while since I've played Brawl, so correct me if I'm wrong), the banana peel can basically 'do its deed' as soon as it spawns and hits the floor. Now, because the falling of items is random, this could mean that it becomes a more random tripping mechanism. Once someone gets past the original tripping time, which is at the beginning of their run, they then have the possibility of being tripped again during the run; just because there's always the chance that a banana peel can spawn. This can then alter your original thoughts on 'whoever is controlling the field will be awarded with more items and thus a better position' because the banana peel can actually end up being a hinderance when unexpected. It can also then cause a huge backward shift in momentum, which, as a lot of people know, is a major aspect of winning just about any fighting game. Generally, a person with higher consistency in their momentum will be considered the 'better' player. Tripping can cause an inconsistency, although not major. But adding a banana peel? That makes tripping a problem at all times, no matter what you are doing. That has the ability to drastically change consistency in momentum. Then throw in the fact that enough random shifts in momentum, and a player may then lose control of his 'standard' tournament emotions (basically...he may get frustrated or angry), and that can also greatly change his gameplay. All of this shrouds the line be which is your original argument on why items don't matter. Thus, the line between better and worse player can become rather shrouded, and the difference between better and worse was your main argument.

Oh, and take it from someone who's good friend has basically the stupidest luck in the world. This can happen, and it more than likely will happen.

 

[teh_spamerer]

I have a bit of a reason for at least the banana peel to not be included.

As many people have stated, the appearance of items is random. I know you've tried to argue why this doesn't really change the gameplay considering "better" or "worse" players, but for the banana peel, it really does make it a huge issue. If I can remember correctly (although it has been a while since I've played Brawl, so correct me if I'm wrong), the banana peel can basically 'do its deed' as soon as it spawns and hits the floor. Now, because the falling of items is random, this could mean that it becomes a more random tripping mechanism. Once someone gets past the original tripping time, which is at the beginning of their run, they then have the possibility of being tripped again during the run; just because there's always the chance that a banana peel can spawn. This can then alter your original thoughts on 'whoever is controlling the field will be awarded with more items and thus a better position' because the banana peel can actually end up being a hinderance when unexpected. It can also then cause a huge backward shift in momentum, which, as a lot of people know, is a major aspect of winning just about any fighting game. Generally, a person with higher consistency in their momentum will be considered the 'better' player. Tripping can cause an inconsistency, although not major. But adding a banana peel? That makes tripping a problem at all times, no matter what you are doing. That has the ability to drastically change consistency in momentum. Then throw in the fact that enough random shifts in momentum, and a player may then lose control of his 'standard' tournament emotions (basically...he may get frustrated or angry), and that can also greatly change his gameplay. All of this shrouds the line be which is your original argument on why items don't matter. Thus, the line between better and worse player can become rather shrouded, and the difference between better and worse was your main argument.

Oh, and take it from someone who's good friend has basically the stupidest luck in the world. This can happen, and it more than likely will happen.

You need to pick up a banana before anyone trips. BlueTerrorist is a smart guy because he actually uses his brains before writing. Don't throw out "facts" on random, if you don't even know them.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

brawl sucks and its slow and there is very little to improve on and spamming the same thing over and over in any game is gay and it takes about 6 hits to reduce the damage/knockback the no items are not the flaw the game is the flaw

 

[Morrigan]

^
Nice use of commas.

 

[Circa]

@teh_spamerer: I already read that. But chances are, when in the middle of a dash and just paying attention to the next move that will be performed, you will not be paying careful enough attention to the banana peel that is coming down right in front of you. I'm sorry, but I just don't believe the human mind is going to do that on a natural basis without consistently ending their own momentum to begin with. Plus, picking up that item creates a whole new spectrum of issues too. What if you DID pick up that item, but the mere fact that you were forced to pick up an item to keep momentum actually ends up ruining your momentum anyway, due to the time constraint required in keeping momentum/picking up the item? In essence, adding the banana peel can create the same problem as adding the bunny hood, only it'll be more forced and (possibly) less accidental. The only real counter to it is to camp, because then you won't have to worry as much about having the shift in the momentum. But then you should consider the fact that this game is already rather campy, as many people have said, and thus adding banana peels would just add unnecessary camping.

Oh, and if someone else didn't cover it (although I think someone else did...but I'll just reinforce it if so), the fact that Diddy Kong has banana peels doesn't make adding them any more fair, just because of the randomness of item spawns. Banana peels are part of Diddy's metagame and come from him, thus people are aware of it when they fight Diddy Kong. However, adding banana peels to just pop up anywhere is unpredictable and thus can't really be planned against.

I would also add that above argument part to the idea of getting rid of the Franklin Badge idea (based on the fact that it can severely hinder the metagame of projectile-based characters and thus make the game at least slightly more uneven), but I don't really feel like arguing over more than one item at a time, so I'll just say that much about the franklin badge and be done with it.

 

[Stev]

Lol, you just presented the weirdest example ever regarding Fans. I mean, you could have said "player 1 kills player 2, P1 is at high %, fan appears, P1 grabs it, P1 takes P2 from 0% to over 70 or more %." Anyway I don't think the Fan would be allowed if there were any item tourneys. That thing is just broken.

It's a pure example that can pretty much be applied to any item. That was the point

 

[DanGR]

What? I can't believe that there's no higher degree of "competitive"...I mean, Brawl is competitive right now. Why can't it be more so?

You can't have a "more competitive" game by doing anything that you've proposed in the OP. That's my point. I'm against your definition of the word 'competitive'. To me, it seems like it's a cover-up for the word 'fun'- a word competitive gamers aren't supposed to use when discussing tournament regulations and such. I find that ridiculous.

 

[Rain(ame)]

Gheb, much <3 bro, so this isn't said with any malice.

"Also, this may sound mean, but you aren't considering a certain factor in a game. Not every match is: "Oh this player is clearly better than the other. So it won't affect the match AT ALL!!!" I'm sorry, but that's not the way this world works."

This is pretty much exactly what I said about the two people who play each other a lot. In other words....you will wind up with the situation where it's not always clear cut and dry who will have a winner. Throwing items in...does tend to offset the balance of a match between two people and the "characters" they choose to use.

The part about Diddy's Banana peel, yes, Diddy can throw it forwards when he picks it up, but when he initially pulls it out...he tosses it backwards. So that means he has to pick it up and throw it. that is MORE action required to do it. In other words the Diddy either has to be facing the opposite direction or he has to turn around and grab it fast enough. He also has to take in mind of spacing, setups, etc. Once a banana appears for a normal player, they don't need to do that. In other words, it can take less time, in essence, to make use of it. (someone will think of this...people TRY to break the game)


At the claim of opinion...well...this discussion, in essence, does stem from opinion of the feeling of items not breaking the game. Perhaps I shouldn't have used me, in particular, but it generally aggravates people. Sandbags can interrupt ANY combo if it's being moved across the screen. If there is any chase given....any space....a sandbag can appear. Opponent is knocked in the air, and a follow up comes with a Fair or some other aerial. suddenly....a sandbag appears and the chaser hits that instead. I've seen it, so it's not fabricated. People have already complained about it. Perhaps...the term consecutive string of hits would be more proper? (so as not to stir any unneeded comments) It can be interrupted. Heck, it could interrupt a wall of turnips, bananas, pain, or anything else under the sun. It randomly appears and takes affect right away.

"Also....things can go very awkwardly for a "first encounter" between two people, as well. The truly better player may lose the first encounter, but he/she may not. Throwing items in there destroys the validity of player skill."

Oh, I assure, I'm not "just saying it does". I've been avoiding an example using myself, but this is a pretty decent example to use.

I'm at a "tournament" and I'm playing the guy that is expected to win the tournament. My warm-up match, at that. He's been beating people since he sat down. In the warm-ups, people had the items off. I play this guy (who won the tournament by the way) and I beat him. Needless to say, I shock and amaze people because they all "just knew" he was going to win. I ran a few victories up, and no big deal. I get into the tournament match, and there's items. I figured, "I'd deal with this", and get it over with. I'm up against this mario player, and after stepping in the fray with me for 10 seconds, she runs. I'm trying to figure out why the heck she's running. I take a stock. She's still running, and starts getting items to use. Frustrating, yes. I get a stock taken by...some random item that hits me at a high %. Okay...that's expected. I take another stock from her. Using NO items, mind you. Then I get her at high % and am ready to finish this all too easy match-up. I'm still at like 25% mind you. A box drops on me...INSTANT death. Okay....I still have a stock...I can finish her. I spawn, the invincibility frame ends...and another box falls on me and kills me...INSTANTLY. I lost TWO stocks at 0 or little % and lost the match. The matches following were some of the most horrendous melee matches on ANY level of game play I had ever seen. The girl loses to the worst sheik I've seen to date. 3 stocked....which is what I would have done to her. He loses to some random falco. The rest of the matches....are all matches I had done already. I look bad losing in the first round. Because of what? Items.

Granted, no, these aren't the items in discussion, nor is melee the game in discussion. I assure you, though, that in a tournament situation, randomness like that can happen with any item. Perhaps not to such an extreme, but a random item at the right (or wrong, depending on how you look at it) time will turn the tide of a match in a way that it more than likely shouldn't have been. Because things were different in Brawl, I gave the items thing AMPLE chance. I was told by people to turn them off. I was criticized for having them on. Still, I wanted to give the items thing a chance. It didn't work, sadly. Items just turned the tide of matches that would NOT have had the outcome without them. I watched as the frustration of each person I brought Brawl to, grew with items changing the tide. I listened as people told me their Brawl stories of how items just made it completely different. "I'm two stocking them....until they get the items on. Suddenly I'm losing...."


Let me ask you something: Do you expect people to not stall for time in order to get an item?

That's not meant in a sarcastic way or anything, either. I mean, be honest and ask yourself that. My answer would be "no" because I know how people get. It's not everyone, but you're going to get those that do it. then suddenly, out of frustration....other people start doing it.


I'm gonna leave it at this for now....'cuz it's like almost 6am, and I'm really friggin' tired. Be back later, though.