Whose Mafia Is it Anyway - Game Over!

[ranmaru]

Honestly forgot he voted Soup the page before. Originally took it as null early rvs wagonining.

 

[Lore]

im mind****ed

Right? I was so confused when I noticed it lol.

 

[Pythag]

i interpreted kary's policy lynch on soup to mean "if you're going to be highly dramatic in this manner we should lynch you on principle"

did you still feel this is the case early d1? sounds to me like you think its about the claim

early d1 I was more convinced this was tvt.

regardless, I guess I viewed the claim as well as being wrapped up in the dramatic nature of soup's posting. as in, this lynch literally informs town the most.

For you to agree with it, and then the beginning of the day try to dodge out of it just made me curious.

You'd still rather vote lore instead of soup?

 

[ranmaru]

With the SOUP vote in mind, I would not be bothered by a ryker vote since it was wagoning and that's better than staying on an rvs vote. If Lore had done the same I wouldn't have a problem. My concern is him voting Pythag with a hypothetical and then going back to a simple joke vote. Ryker vote can lead to wagon which can lead to pressure which can lead to info, going back to voting you as a joke isn't as productive.

 

[Tom]

no, im hitched to ryker on soup. i dont feel total good about it but if i had bigger nuts id be ranmaru.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

With the SOUP vote in mind, I would not be bothered by a ryker vote since it was wagoning and that's better than staying on an rvs vote. If Lore had done the same I wouldn't have a problem. My concern is him voting Pythag with a hypothetical and then going back to a simple joke vote. Ryker vote can lead to wagon which can lead to pressure which can lead to info, going back to voting you as a joke isn't as productive.

this is a good answer

 

[ranmaru]

I don't remember sharing my nut size with you guys yet, but they are huge.

 

[Tom]

im reading Lore v Ran re soup around 1600 right now and then ill wrap up these notes

 

[Pythag]

Yo, I'm seriously so stoked to be playing mafia with all of you

 

[Tom]

hah he's mafia

 

[Pythag]

hah he's mafia

Nah man.

I'm just three sheets to the wind rn.

 

[Tom]

porque no los dos

 

[Pythag]

porque no los dos

เพราะว่าจริงๆนะผมไม่ใช่เป็นคนมาเฟีย

 

[#HBC | marshy]

Yo, I'm seriously so stoked to be playing mafia with all of you

same

i checked the social thread the other day n noticed something. in nearly a month itll b 10 years old

i wonder what happens after this game

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

yoooooooo real talk this game is lit bro

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Lore

can you describe to me how you came to originally vote soup by #227?

 

[Tom]

Day1-2 Reread Notes:
Tom

Spoiler

OrangeXhtml - Vanilla Townie

Spoiler

#HBC | Kary - Vanilla Townie

Spoiler

#HBC | ѕoup - has claimed Town Oracle

Spoiler

KevinM - Selfishly I’m glad that if soup!Oracle is true then Kevin will be solved.

Spoiler

Fandangox -

Spoiler

#HBC | Ryker -

Spoiler

#HBC | marshy -

Spoiler

#HBC | Gorf -

Spoiler

Pythag

Spoiler

#HBC | FrozeηFlame -

Spoiler

ranmaru -

Spoiler

Lore - asks questions, agrees, backs away, asks question, digs in hard, backs away, asks questions, agrees, backs away

Spoiler

Tom
Ranmaru
Ryker
KevinM
Fandango
Marshy
Gorf
Pythag
Frozen
Soup
Lore

If Soup flips town and Kevin flips town, Fandango drops fast, pending Kevin's soul-read
If Soup flips town and Kevin flips scum, your team owes it to me to take me out of this world
If Soup flips town, Marshy drops, Ryker drops
If Soup flips scum, Gorf drops, FF stays at bottom
If Lore flips scum, Pythag drops

NOTES:
Soup v Lore occupies: #227-256-272-281-282-283-286-287-289-290-293-294-295-296-297-298, then….. If they’re both town, and we lynch them Day 2 and 3, the fault lies here as does the lesson. This is a huge bickering discussion about absolutely nothing but what it does do is cement their opposing wagons early game and lasts forever.


“Spak is Doop”
G Gorf : I feel your #265 analogy of Spak being Doop is incredibly grokkable but not necessarily meaningful and is a really bad look. This is going to burden you all game in my eyes and it’s not even something I’m doing actively.
KevinM : Likewise #268 aged poorly.


Questions to answer:

if lore/soup were both dead and i gave you a gun to shoot someone who would you go and why?

FF or Pythag. Feel bad about them both and they’ve got some connections by now.

tom do you still think lore is lynchbait

I called him Lynchbait Lore mostly because every game he’s lynchbait even if he’s scum

So yes

Questions to ask:

Pythag : In your #123 in early Day 1 you said that you would kill me. Later in Day 1 and into Day 2 you have cited me primarily as one of your main, if not your main, town read. I know what you said in your #136. But what changed?


#HBC | marshy : Can you answer Kary’s #323 now? Is Pythag scum with Lore?


KevinM can you drop that hit on Fandango now?

 

[Tom]

good night

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

guess im putting my reread on pause

 

[Pythag]

Pythag : In your #123 in early Day 1 you said that you would kill me. Later in Day 1 and into Day 2 you have cited me primarily as one of your main, if not your main, town read. I know what you said in your #136. But what changed?

I mean, it was early. I didn't like that you and marsh (and other people) were upset at lore's hypotheticals.
It didn't seem right to me, last game there were a few questions I feel asking 'who would you vig and why' and I don't get how that's different than what lore was doing, though he was more wordy.

marshy was at me too, when I asked about Lore's play, by saying it was 'too complicated' but straight up I think anything that's anything to talk about, gets us out of RVS. That didn't strike me as a big red flag, but both of you hopped on saying lore was like, way to awkard and srs.

As you played, you were sheeping kevin and later you emerged from your chrysalis. I was ok with all those things, mostly because I was ok with kevin, and your play read more and more townie to me, especially during D2.

Who do you want me to help you town read?

As for lore, I truly don't see how everyone can't see the comparison in his play style.

Did you see the case on spak last game? Lore wrote for pages on a Spak not answering or rather, half answering an unasked question by me. And lore and spak turned out to be town. Lore's attitude and play seem to be a townie that is absolutely convinced of his read.

Does his treatise on Ran not remind you of that?

 

[Tom]

Pythag - compare Lore in this game and previous game to Lore in Tomafia 4. What's the visible difference in how he plays Scum v Town? Which do you think he's closer to this game, in behavior?

Pythag - help me with marshy

 

[ranmaru]

Tom How did Lore play in Tomafia 4? How does his play here compare. You can answer after Pythag responds of course.

 

[Pythag]

Pythag - compare Lore in this game and previous game to Lore in Tomafia 4. What's the visible difference in how he plays Scum v Town? Which do you think he's closer to this game, in behavior?

I'll go reread Tomafia. From what I remember Lore gave the appearance of being helpful, without ever actually being helpful.


Pythag - help me with marshy[/QUOTE]
Man, I'm stuck on him. I really really want him to be town. He's been asking interesting questions, but I'm still stuck on his reaction to soup.

specifically these two posts :

1035

1059

the first one, I don't know why you would assume scum would kill an oracle. That seems like it only benefits town. Unless he's referring to town would lynch him.

the second one...if there's actual doubt, I don't totally know why he would voice this. Gorf called him out saying "then vote orange." It just hit me as weird.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

grokkable but not necessarily meaningful

can you elaborate? i understand @ the rest of it tho

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

so i wanted to try a different rereading style going into my full reread of d1-d2. im gonna abandon this style because, while it is incredibly thorough and helps me get a strong read for the finer interactions (which i will still hold onto for my final current thoughts)... its taking me long as ****

this is a full on summarization of nearly every single post up to #286, which is essentially when the descent to madness took place in the thread.

Spoiler

 

[Pythag]

Tom

I'm about halfway through Tomafia right now, and I would say that:

Scum!Lore is incredibly accommodating.
He wants to be liked and accepted by town. (man, d1 sucks guiz!)
He's giving out advice for both mafia and town, handing it out free of charge and prompting. It seems to be under the guise of "I want a good game."

Town!Lore in previous game : Tunneling and convinced. Interaction with town is incredulous when they don't find the same things scummy. See : UP and Spak interactions.

This current lore hasn't really done anything to win the hearts and minds of the townies, he's certainly frustrated at us. I would say the difference is this

scum!lore is a used car salesmen asking : how can I make you feel good about this lynch?

whereas town!lore is a doomsday prophet - everyone hears, no one listens.

I'll keep reading.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Finally got through Tom's notes and I love having those. I had forgotten how much I didn't like Lore's D1. Reading through them is a wonder for things to go back and look at myself.

That said Tom , can I get summaries for where you stand at the culmination of your notes (good/bad). I can combine them with your readlist and get most of the way there, but getting a feel for how heavily you're weighting some of these actions compared to others would be very nice.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

And then Gorf posts the same style of post since I have last refreshed. One moment.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Worse formatting made that harder to read, but I still like getting stuff like that.

Still waiting on Gorf to get through where the **** hit the fan.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

it was a full on copy paste of the word draft. wouldve prob formatted it better if i finished it

 

[Lore]

#282 LORES REASONING FOR THINKING SOUPS RYKER HAMMER WAS SCUMMY: “SCUM COULD EASILY FAKE A SERIOUS QUICKHAMMER UNDER THE GUISE OF BEING A NONSERIOUS ‘MEME’ QUICK HAMMER.” (saying this right now, if soup is ****ing scum I am in absolute shock and awe that you ****ing caught scum by 227 for what I consider to be absurd reasons. But congrats on finding scum lmfao)

Still a bit unsober, but I now have a tin foil theory.

Gorf has been making jokes all along that he's actually scum, making jokes about trying to beat town, etc. Soup is likely to flip scum, and Gorf in this scenario used this post to low-key congratulate me on finding one of his scum mates early.


No I don't take the above tin foil theory serious lmao. I'm just saying it now so that if we get to the end of the game and it's true, I can say I called it.

 

[Pythag]

How the heck are none of y’all asleep?

 

[Lore]

Also while doing FF14 grinding, I had an epiphany.

When Ranmaru was arguing with me, he kept repeating the semantic argument. Over and over, changing his definition and arguments with some of (in my opinion) the worst, most inconsistent arguments that I've seen in a while. Dude was literally quoting posts as "evidence" that contradicted what he was saying in his own posts. And this happened multiple times.

So we have two possibilties. We have a town player who, knowing his own context for posts but playing way too close to the chest, makes repeated arguments that to him make sense, but to everyone outside his own head they make no sense.

OR we have scum that was dumb enough to self contradict repeatedly, with zero understanding of his own contradictions. Not to mention the absolutely baffling points he would bring up.


I respect Ran's intelligence enough to recognize that he's probably not scum, for now. I still do find many of his posts strange, along with his sudden drop from Soup EoD1. I also find his lack of pushing Marshy to be weird. But in terms of the contradictions, I need to just take them as null.

Unvote

Vote: Soup

Ran is still null-but-leaning-scum, but I don't have nearly enough to reasonably vote him. Soup is back to being my top pick; my small doubts of Scum!Soup came from the strength of my Ran scum read. Now that's gone.

 

[Lore]

And with that, I sleep. Later dudes.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Alright guys finally caught up. Not the deepest dive in the world but I read everything and just quoted every post that caught my attention, hopefully all of my commentary here gives yall a good sense of where Im at

#HBC | Ryker I think Pythag looks the worst, and Frozen the Second worst on the wagon. Pythag for voting on only stating that FF's post was solid, and FF for voting in agreement with Marshy but at the same time, stating that my previous page of posts were 'bland' which I feel was not a fair assessment of my play there. I don't think Frozen and Pythag are aligned so I would think Pythag is more likely.

This is a shockingly bad take. Second worst on the wagon in what ****ing world and on what basis? How do I possibly look worse than the people who were wishy washy all day and joined near EoD? I was on the orange wagon early and stayed there because newsflash, I thought the slot was a good ****ing play, I didn't just do "oh well guess this the wagon we're doing guess I'll vote" non-committal bull**** to be able to seal a mislynch but not look responsible for it

On the other hand, why would he claim oracle, as he literally only becomes useful to town when he's lynched?
I don't get why everyone wanted to kill an oracle claim before they even get to do anything, that doesn't make much sense to me. So I'm about to go relook what happened post claim

This is a pretty decent point, oracle is a very low stakes PR for a high risk fake claim. scum!soup is better served risking getting counterclaimed by a more potent role and at minimum in an alternate universe where we lynched soup day 1 and he turned out to be scum, scum now have ez pickings on his CCer and/or forces town to jail to keep the PR alive thus neutering it. Soup's play hasn't been great I'm not gonna argue with that but like the claim makes no sense as a scum move imo. Claiming oracle doesn't give us a reason to let him live beyond making his one selection and after he does so it puts even more pressure on his slot to flip to get us the info from it. Like seriously from a scum perspective a fake oracle claim is room temp IQ ****. Maybe scum!soup just didn't think about what he was doing at all and yolo claimed it without actually weighing it against other possible fake claims but yeah, not what I'm feeling here

This is literally why he chose it. He was more likely to have town keep him alive for at least one day, if not more if he pulled it off right. Some town could decide not to lynch "and leave him to scum to kill".

At worst, he gets to get a power role exposed and CCing him. At best, he lives for multiple days. It was the best role to choose for a fake claim.

You make it sound like we dont learn anything from soup being left alive for 2 nights, as well as his claimed target. And how does your second line here not apply in equal or greater force to other more potent town PRs that could possibly take multiple info generating night actions if left alive for multiple nights? This take is gross af

Votecount:

Soup (4): Marshy, Ryker, Lore, Pythag
FrozenFlame(1): Soup
Lore(1): Ranmaru

Not Voting(5): Kevinm, Tom, Fandangox, Gorf, FrozenFlame

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Deadline is in ~75.5 hours from this post

This initial soup wagon made me want to ****ing puke, guarantee there are scum in that group of 4. My gut tells me maybe two. Best guess would be Ryker and Lore. When I saw this initially I felt real bad about marshy but his later stuff this day phase has made me feel better about the slot. Ryker continues to slowly drop for me for reasons I'll expand on later and pythag continues to be a big fat ? for me, definitely one of the most confusing slots to read this game imo. This early wagon just ****in reeks of scum trying to pidgeonhole our choices today by anchoring us to a "soup wagon or one alternative" dichotemy by forcing focus around soup with early pressure to make it seem like his wagon is a foregone conclusion

Vote Lore

Will DEFINITELY go back to Soup, but I don't want cheeky votes to pile up and quicklynch him.

This is grime af. Honestly I saw the Lore vote and got all pumped that you were making a redemption move after deepthroating the ****ty ass early soup wagon but then your follow up comment ruined it. Literally screams consciousness of guilt, like you knew how ****ing bad that quick build up on the soup wagon was and didn't want your ****ing hand in the cookie jar when people caught on to how shady it was that it had so much momentum early. "I'm not trying to push a quicklynch guys I swear look how responsible Im being while at the same time let me signal how willing I am to jump right back on when literally anyone gives me a good reason to." Like ****in yikes bro

#HBC | marshy without a strong reread, it just seemed like Ryker was really taking a back seat earlier.

Last game he popped in like a tornado to get everyone voting on something. He was a force.

He didn't show that really until later in the day.

I can snoop around, for quotes if you like, but that's mainly the impression I'm working with.

I feel this. My growing scumread on ryker is mostly coming from the fact that Ryker is perfectly content to sit around and talk about how he wants the direction of the game to shift but then literally doesn't do anything to make it happen. Particularly poignant was his EoD commentary yesterday when he jabbed at me for being his antithesis. Like he was mad at me for suggesting waiting for other people to rally last minute was a lost cause. But then there was no follow up. No effort to rally anyone or turn a fading wagon around. He just expressed disagreement/discontent and then zero follow up. That's not town!Ryker in my book.

why havent you pushed anyone hard/cased anyone? wheres the bite?

why hav you been asking permission to push/wagon ppl?

somewhat related to the above but why so laidback in general? i saw you say you wanted me/kevin/ff to play harder but does that not apply to you as well?

why the asking kevin for direction and me for questions? i get were all tight but i didnt see this last game

what has you doubting a soup lynch to the degree that you are?

do you have concerns/qualms lore might b lynchbait again?

if lore/soup were both dead and i gave you a gun to shoot someone who would you go and why?

in general do you feel like you hav any vibes as to how scum are approaching this game? like do you think theyre inactive/subdued, at the forefront, something else, a mix, etc.

My read on marshy was fading into scum territory as well until I saw this post. If this is faked as scum like ****in bravo dude but idk this seems like the most legit illustration of actual scumhunting going on in your head than any other post made by anyone this game. Like these questions are real af

this is interesting looking back. i definitely didnt agree with those having a stark confidence on the oracle claim being a lie. even now i think its worth considering the possibility that its true. but i do definitely think its believable that a townie thats been playing bad (which frozen clearly thinks lore has) could have that sort of stark confidence.

ryker has stark confidence in it too so im curious how frozen will treat ryker later regarding it

Funny you bring this up because Lore and ryker both sound like great ****ing lynches to me right now. Ryker for reasons stated above but I see your point here re: Lore and ryker being consonant in the unwarranted confidence department

Page 10 of the reread going to just throw **** out there and see where my heads at.

Orange dying looks ****ing terrible for Ran

I think right now I could see Lore/Ran being a thing if that’s a thing your last scum is Pythag/Fandingo/Tom.

God all of Rans interactions in the first ten pages are bad though.

Same honestly goes for Fandingo, he isn’t committing to a single read but he’s also pressuring Soup for a read least.

If we default to Soup/Lore today I think it looks something like

Soup
Marshy
Gorf

Lore
Ran
Hard to Call

I don’t know what to think of FF but what he’s uncomfortable of in those first few pages especially the WIFOM gorf posts rings true with what I didn’t like. I hate his reads list though it rings so safe


Ryker laying back is always a null tell for me because he plays the game at his own pace no matter what the state of the game is but I will say the more I look at his initial reaction of the almost mislynch the more I dislike it... but that doesn’t necessarily ring as bad to me.

For what it’s worth I think the most important interactions driven by who we know is town at this point:

Kary being suspicious of Tom and Marshy
FF jumping suspiciously quick on the Orange Wagon
Literally all of Ran

Next ten pages I’m reading now I’ll see if I feel differently about the web I’ve got here

I don't think I've agreed more with any other post this entire game. This post is ****ing glorious and I cosign all of it. Like even tho you **** on me a little here its like perfectly ****ing warranted and I can tell you're puzzled by a lot of the same **** that's puzzling me. Like you hating my read list because its safe is actually a legit af callout because I definitely wasn't making any bold reads at the time so its an appropriate callout. You should note that I wasn't hesitating to commit to a wagon tho, like my reads were mostly lukewarm but I told yall who I was down to lynch and didn't ****ing flip flop. Totally agreed that Ran is brutally rough slot to sort right now. Fandingo's EoD presence yesterday reads grimier and grimier every time I look at em. Also not getting any scum hunting vibe from that slot at all today.

Pretty sure Fandingo is a bingo by the way. Either that or he isn’t paying attention to the game

Like bro I vibe with this **** so hard, good ****

On another note, I feel like Lore was trying to set up for a trade with him and soup the whole time after soup claimed. Like there was heat on Lore early in the day and he probably knows that he's living on borrowed time. I feel like he's just been angling hardcore to set up for a quick soup mislynch today at the expense of his life. Like the fact he was so butthurt that soup didn't oracle him is so bizarre to me, like he can't think outside the 1v1 at all. And tbh that's all I feel like lore is doing, trying to manage and come out on top in various 1v1s. Like he's not concerned with actually sorting slots at all, just bickering with slots and trying to signal to everyone else that he's right and they're wrong on whatever asinine point they decide to tunnel. That's not scum hunting, that's just trying to look better than other people. Scum do that ****. And Lore being perfectly willing to set up a trade for a mislynch of a town PR fits that bill 100%. Like look at this ****:

Isn't the whole point that Soup is going to Oracle me (although he's lying about being oracle) then he gets got tomorrow, solving us both?

Looks like soup isn't happening. ****.

Vote: OrangeXhtml

God this post is so grime. This is the fakest resignation I've read in a long ass time. Wow man, you realllllly had me convinced that you're upset about lynching orange and us just having to resort to trading soup against you tomorrow. Oh le sighhhhhh what a tragedy

Like dawg, I slightly bring up the possibility of you not being the play today and it being Lore, and then you IMMEDIATELY vote the slot, despite you townreading it.

That's textbook self ****ing preservation right there.

I am now ok with your slot dying today.

This reads straight up like a person who's just looking for palatable excuses to vote people instead of actually sorting slots. "I'm now ok with your slot dying" lmao wtf did a switch just go off in your head just because of that? You weren't at all ok with the slot going before? Really? Just reads like scum waiting for palatable grounds rest on comfortably for a faked scum read than someone who actually had their read shifted because of someones play. This slot can ****in go

Vote: Lore

Could easily be sold on fandango or Ryker. I still need to ISO Kary tho which I'm sure will be a valuable exercise. Gonna try to do that by tomorrow evening. Sorry for taking so long to actually get meaningful **** up this phase

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Overall readlist in ranked order top down from towniest to scummiest:

5. KevinM
2. #HBC | ѕoup (agreed his play is a cluster **** but I legit think he's town, I'll take all the hazing yall can dish if Im being outplayed here but Im confident in this read)
12. #HBC | Gorf
3. #HBC | marshy
9. Pythag
10. Tom
1. Ranmaru
8. #HBC | Ryker
11. Fandangox
7. Lore

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

the more I think about it marshy is prob only lower than gorf because I'm more paranoid about him possibly being scum and ****ing us late game if given a free town pass

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I'm going to the store, but holy **** was that an awful post.

**** it, I'll go go my PC first.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Tom has been trending up with his most recent contributions but it bothers me that he's so bothered by my jabs at him, like damn it just comes off defensive but maybe that's the scumhunting prowess insecurity talking? like bro I feel that too but like its ok when people think your takes are **** sometimes, no townie has ever had a game with zero bad takes (obv exaggerating like obviously some people pull perfect ****ing games sometimes but you get the point)

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I'm going to the store, but holy **** was that an awful post.

**** it, I'll go go my PC first.

lmao sweet bro come @ me, sorry I didn't town read you, gonna cry?