Whose Mafia Is it Anyway - Game Over!

[ranmaru]

On the basis that you call my content bland yet it has to do with Spak, but you join on Spak due to agreeing with Gorf and Marshy. Just seemed like a mischaracterization. I feel my points were better than what Marshy said. I'll quote what you agreed to. Then I'll quote what I said, which you characterize as bland:

Did not think of the dismissiveness = scum with knowledge angle. this is some good ****, also agreed with the gorf read here

dont like spak. thought he was reachy when first shading lore and awkward earlier in the game. and feel like hes too dismissive of lore/soup in a way that makes me wonder if hes scum with knowledge.

To elaborate on Spak: His #58 is the only post when others are conversing around him. So he doesn't really post much besides that, until Marshy asks him more about it. In his #93 he explains his thought process and starts to say he might be thinking it's just town lore. To me, this seems he made that post to shade Lore after Tom was calling him weird, rather than actually consider it may have been town lore at all. If he had actually thought about it, he wouldn't have made that post. He cares to **** on Lore rather than determine his alignment.

 

[ranmaru]

In short, I think your reasoning for joining was weak.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

In short, I think your reasoning for joining was weak.

"I think your reasoning for being on the wagon was weak" is a pretty weak basis for the claim "you were the 2nd worst vote on the wagon." Lot of distance between the warrant and the claim there bro. You dont have to agree with my reasoning for being on it but saying I was the 2nd worst vote on the wagon is absolutely laughable

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

1.) You're the second worst on the wagon, not necessarily because of the way you approached the wagon, but because of the way you've approached Soup and your lack of approach to the game in general hasn't given me better to look for.

2.) Oracle does NOT read as a low stakes PR. It's a ****ing clear or bingo in a 13 man game unless it targets specifically one Mafia role with specifically one action of three sent in. That's huge. In addition, it was a claim on Day ONE where the information prevents that clear from happening if he gets CC'd and Mafia has a roleblocker. If you see no value in a scum claiming Oracle, I think YOU are the one with room temperature IQ.

3.) Are you seriously saying that pushing for competing wagons early in a day phase is a move that makes players look worse? I don't understand you. Are you suggesting that scum got together and concocting a scheme to get together and limit town's options this early in the phase? ESPECIALLY in a world where you're pushing Lore as one of the primary candidates to be scum and that would be limiting it to include a scumbag before Soup's explosion.

4.) Go **** yourself trying to yell at me for taking quicklynch off the table. You're consistently misconstruing actions the entire game. **** outta here.

5.) I didn't shove a fading wagon because an Orange lynch was not so unpalatable. If I'm wrong, I'll take the oracle result on the promises I received for ending Soup this phase.





You are stretching shockingly hard and your entire worldview is centered around a Soup town read that I absolutely cannot fathom you seriously holding. You appear every bit as confident that he is town as I am that he is scum, but, unlike me, you don't have a decent reason. PLEASE outline why Soup should live through this phase so you can justify your entire stance on this game.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

lmao sweet bro come @ me, sorry I didn't town read you, gonna cry?

I'm sad that I waited an entire fame for you to spew **** across this game.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I am perfectly happy playing ball with you for a moment, but I'm going to the store first. If you're going to be up for a half hour, I'd love to play ball for a little bit. I think you'll bury yourself if you keep going at this pace.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

In fact, before I leave, what do you do on a Lore town flip? On a scum flip, I assume you're finally gonna grow a pair and actually come for me.

What do you do on a Soup scum flip?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

God your timing is dog ****. I've been wanting to play this game for a week and you show up at 1am as I'm walking out the door.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Votecount:

Soup (4): Marshy, Pythag, Fandangox, Lore
FrozenFlame(1): Soup
Lore(2): Ryker, FrozenFlame

Not Voting(4): Kevinm, Tom, Ranmaru, Gorf

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Deadline is in about ~17 hours from this post.

 

[ranmaru]

"I think your reasoning for being on the wagon was weak" is a pretty weak basis for the claim "you were the 2nd worst vote on the wagon." Lot of distance between the warrant and the claim there bro. You dont have to agree with my reasoning for being on it but saying I was the 2nd worst vote on the wagon is absolutely laughable

It's just not a strong enough reason that would compel me to join Spak if I didn't have my own reasoning for it, so it doesn't make sense (from a town perspective) for you to join with the reasoning you gave. Also being second worst is pretty fair for you, considering Lore was deadline voting, and Gorf was pushing Spak consistently all day, his push seemed genuine. Yours and Pythag were the worst. Kary is dead.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

1.) You're the second worst on the wagon, not necessarily because of the way you approached the wagon, but because of the way you've approached Soup and your lack of approach to the game in general hasn't given me better to look for.

2.) Oracle does NOT read as a low stakes PR. It's a ****ing clear or bingo in a 13 man game unless it targets specifically one Mafia role with specifically one action of three sent in. That's huge. In addition, it was a claim on Day ONE where the information prevents that clear from happening if he gets CC'd and Mafia has a roleblocker. If you see no value in a scum claiming Oracle, I think YOU are the one with room temperature IQ.

3.) Are you seriously saying that pushing for competing wagons early in a day phase is a move that makes players look worse? I don't understand you. Are you suggesting that scum got together and concocting a scheme to get together and limit town's options this early in the phase? ESPECIALLY in a world where you're pushing Lore as one of the primary candidates to be scum and that would be limiting it to include a scumbag before Soup's explosion.

4.) Go **** yourself trying to yell at me for taking quicklynch off the table. You're consistently misconstruing actions the entire game. **** outta here.

5.) I didn't shove a fading wagon because an Orange lynch was not so unpalatable. If I'm wrong, I'll take the oracle result on the promises I received for ending Soup this phase.





You are stretching shockingly hard and your entire worldview is centered around a Soup town read that I absolutely cannot fathom you seriously holding. You appear every bit as confident that he is town as I am that he is scum, but, unlike me, you don't have a decent reason. PLEASE outline why Soup should live through this phase so you can justify your entire stance on this game.

1.) "Youre second worst on the ORANGE wagon because I dont like your SOUP read and your play in general." What the actual **** am I reading? Not only do neither of those posts even attempt to compare me to others on the wagon, the fact that youre basing it even in part off the fact that you dont like my approach to soup essentially makes the entire point tautological.

2.) Lmao act harder like oracle is cop, please, its adorable. In terms of raw power oracle is outclass by tracker, 2 shot vig and jailkeeper in this setup. If only comparing info generation, only tracker inarguably outclasses and jailkeep only does so if it survives to endgame. Across all longevity curves oracle has greater upfront value and so I think there's room for debate there. But yeah, given the PR choices here, oracle is relatively weak if youre looking to set up a trade. Plus, as I said above, oracle gets the bang for its buck up front and you deprive it of less relative value trading for it early than you would for something like tracker or jailkeeper. Payoffs are bigger too with those roles if you go un CCd and score big because town has more reason to keep you around longer. Try and zing me all you want but either youre being deliberately dense if this **** isnt obvious to you as town or youre just scum trying spread FUD which fine I respect that

3.) Literally not at a what I said. Whos mischaracterizing who now? I said anchoring town to soup as a default contender in the early phase race is extremely pro scum and easy to do if a couple townies are already predisposed. Did you know that sometimes scum prey on voiced town misreads and like to feed and validate them? Crazy concept right? **** outta here with this strawman bull**** like it has to be some big complicated scheme. One or two scum just have incentive to jump on early and make the wagon look big and inevitable as sookn as a couple townies show that preference. Thats why im sayin theres prob scum in those first 4 voters on soup.

4. Lol youre smart enough to fake an easy altruistic long hanging fruit play, dont be so ****ing indignant and play thebl victim. Sure it couldve been genuine but the way you wrote the post made it read more like signaling than being genuinely town motivated

5. Whatever dude I mean im not saying a soup flip has zero benefits but i legit think we're getting set up for a bait mislynch here to trade for lore. What if scum RBd town!soup and we lynch him here? We arent getting a ****ing result then and its a perfect move for scum to make considering people were pre signing up for the soup play today essentially by EoD1

 

[ranmaru]

Frozen Flame, why do you come across as aggressive from the gate? This is my first time noting that your tone comes across this way after many times playing with you.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

In fact, before I leave, what do you do on a Lore town flip? On a scum flip, I assume you're finally gonna grow a pair and actually come for me.

What do you do on a Soup scum flip?

lore townflip I scrap pretty much everything and start over with that info because clearly my reads blows and Im getting outplayed. On scumflip yeah youre up to bat, but we can do you now instead if you want

Soup scum would be super interesting and if yall did it and proved me wrong id def take a hard look and anyone trying to validate my misread no matter how subtley they did it

God your timing is dog ****. I've been wanting to play this game for a week and you show up at 1am as I'm walking out the door.

idk what to tell you man, I worked 7 - 6, ultimate frisbee summer league 6-8, eat 8:30, relax in the pool cuz Im burnt af from 8:30-9:30, personal phone calls 9:30-10, wow dailies 10:30, from then till my post I was literally reading and then writing my post going as fast as possible and I have 4 court settings at 8 AM tomorrow. So like sorry my timing is **** but my schedule is **** rn. Id love to tango for 30 min but if I don't pass out soon tomorrow is gonna be hell

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Frozen Flame, why do you come across as aggressive from the gate? This is my first time noting that your tone comes across this way after many times playing with you.

someone hasn't read my old games against cello marl lmaooo

Im just tired dude and dont give ****, like Im just saying what I think about the game and ryker comes in and calls my post ****. And like whatever hes entitled to his opinion he usually hates my **** anyway by default and we always give each other **** but right now I just dont feel like pulling punches or being diplomatic. Plus I think people are easier to read when the discourse isnt perfectly sanitized and courteous, makes it hard to tell what people are actually thinking

 

[ranmaru]

That's fair, I'm just curious why that bravado comes out this game and not last game: #237. I haven't read old games in a long time.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Ok, I'm back from the store.

I'm going to suggest something. When I first saw that post, I thought it was dog **** and the timing was hilariously convenient (I still do). I don't mean timing as I was going out the door. I mean timing as the dust has all but settled in this phase and the only slots who aren't voting Soup are myself (who will be), Soup, Kevin, Ran who has Soup as town, and Tom/Gorf who have expressed resignation but apprehension about the Soup lynch.

My initial reaction is that I have a big **** scumbag coming in to try and pull a power move.

Now, what I want to do instead of continuing to sit here and call you a rock licking mongoloid, I am going to offer you a temporary truce. The condescention and insults can stop from both sides and I will treat you as if I don't think you look hilariously bad.




The big irreconcilable thing between us is your read on Soup. I'm going to pretend you're confirmed town for now. Sell me on that read so I can begin to see the remainder of your list. Myself, I am going to go back to your response above Ran's that I haven't gone through yet.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Also, I don't really give a **** about your schedule as long as you'll actually GET to me before this phase is over. As far as I see right now, if Soup flips scum, I am going to collapse on you and try and take the roof down on your head. That said, I mentioned at the start of this game that I ****ing despise having to read you, so here I am trying to make good on the offer I made at the start and work specifically to better understand your slot.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

lore townflip I scrap pretty much everything and start over with that info because clearly my reads blows and Im getting outplayed. On scumflip yeah youre up to bat, but we can do you now instead if you want

With this, I need to know why Lore townflip scraps everything if you think that Lore and I are simply the most likely to be scum from the pool you posted above on that Soup wagon formation. If Lore flips town, does that effect your read on Soup or is that still set in stone? If you're reworking everything, do you end up on Fanny and me if we're still pushing for Soup?

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

That's fair, I'm just curious why that bravado comes out this game and not last game: #237. I haven't read old games in a long time.

I mean youre comparing apples to oranges here man. I have totally different reads on the game and info available at the relative stages of each game. Of course my tenor will be different. Any of the old guard will tell you ssometimes Im chill as **** and sometimes Im just a big asshole. I try not to let it get out of hand, and none of its personal lol my **** talk is only in the context of the game

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

2.) Lmao act harder like oracle is cop, please, its adorable. In terms of raw power oracle is outclass by tracker, 2 shot vig and jailkeeper in this setup. If only comparing info generation, only tracker inarguably outclasses and jailkeep only does so if it survives to endgame. Across all longevity curves oracle has greater upfront value and so I think there's room for debate there. But yeah, given the PR choices here, oracle is relatively weak if youre looking to set up a trade. Plus, as I said above, oracle gets the bang for its buck up front and you deprive it of less relative value trading for it early than you would for something like tracker or jailkeeper. Payoffs are bigger too with those roles if you go un CCd and score big because town has more reason to keep you around longer. Try and zing me all you want but either youre being deliberately dense if this **** isnt obvious to you as town or youre just scum trying spread FUD which fine I respect that

How do you figure? Tracker CAN outclass, but it is also a lot easier to have die off without accomplishing anything. Claiming 2-shot Vig seems like an especially dumb thing to do unless you are Swordsrbroken and like to wake up to a breakfast of hot lead. That leaves Jailer as arguably better, but it doesn't immediately destroy scum plans like an oracle flip can.

I do not possibly understand how you think Oracle isn't a terrifying role for scum to deal with and incredibly potent to nail on D1 if you can manage to stop it cold.

You're not going to sell me on this point. Your PoV here, from an objective out of game standpoint, is something I cannot fathom. However, I don't think it's fruitful to continue on after we've both said our piece on the matter until after the game.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I mean youre comparing apples to oranges here man. I have totally different reads on the game and info available at the relative stages of each game. Of course my tenor will be different. Any of the old guard will tell you ssometimes Im chill as **** and sometimes Im just a big *******. I try not to let it get out of hand, and none of its personal lol my **** talk is only in the context of the game

His previous comment about Cello Marl games rings true. He's an absolute **** to deal with in half the games I've played with him.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Ryker if you think Im trying to pull a power move youre paranoid on another level dude lmao Im an inactive af slot with zero clout lol Im falling on everyones read list how am I gonna derail **** at the 11th hour? My post was literally just a giant "my thoughts as I read along" catch up post so I would have actual stances that people can evaluate before making final decisions as the clock ticks down. And youre the one adminishing me for think 4 quick votes on soup early was a scum power move? I make one actual post and vote for the same guy you are and IM the scheming mastermind? Talk about a double standard

But yeah my intent isnt to get into a condescension battle, thatd be pointless and the same 1v1 **** I criticized lore for. Ill try to do what I can to bridge the gap on my reads but I gotta ISO kary first priority tomorrow. If I cant figure anything out ill prob just sheep kev TBH

 

[ranmaru]

Ryker, what is your read on Marshy right now?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

3.) Literally not at a what I said. Whos mischaracterizing who now? I said anchoring town to soup as a default contender in the early phase race is extremely pro scum and easy to do if a couple townies are already predisposed. Did you know that sometimes scum prey on voiced town misreads and like to feed and validate them? Crazy concept right? **** outta here with this strawman bull**** like it has to be some big complicated scheme. One or two scum just have incentive to jump on early and make the wagon look big and inevitable as sookn as a couple townies show that preference. Thats why im sayin theres prob scum in those first 4 voters on soup.

So you think it's just standard play for scum to hop wagons together early on in mafia games in an effort to stifle discussion?

Once more, you are at the opposite side of the "how to play mafia" spectrum. In my experience, scum spread out and avoid grouping early on in hopes that town mills around and never accomplishes anything. It's townies that group up and make things happen because without large and competing wagons, it's only too easy to avoid really making commitments. You see me talking about this in the last game. I believe you even liked the post.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Our disagreement on relative PR power likely stems from prior preference for guaranteed payoffs vs. High rewards for strong play but higher overall play. Jailer and tracker are devastating to scum when well executed. Seer absent blatant NK misplay by scum cannot by nature dismantle a game

I legit have to go to bed tho sorry

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Ryker, what is your read on Marshy right now?

Town based on my Soup read.

Individually, null. Not for a lack of content either. If I had to put a read, it would probably be scum for the way he jumped around during EoD1. It looked opportunistic to me. However, there are other places he's posted things I've liked. In general, I like his read on Soup and aside from aforementioned EoD hiccups, I like the way it has played out. I liked the way, when Tom called for him to voice things, he IMMEDIATELY clapped back. In general, I need the slot to post more, but I'll let it stay around for much longer if Soup flips scum.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Our disagreement on relative PR power likely stems from prior preference for guaranteed payoffs vs. High rewards for strong play but higher overall play. Jailer and tracker are devastating to scum when well executed. Seer absent blatant NK misplay by scum cannot by nature dismantle a game

I legit have to go to bed tho sorry

Go to bed, I'll keep responding.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

So you think it's just standard play for scum to hop wagons together early on in mafia games in an effort to stifle discussion?

Once more, you are at the opposite side of the "how to play mafia" spectrum. In my experience, scum spread out and avoid grouping early on in hopes that town mills around and never accomplishes anything. It's townies that group up and make things happen because without large and competing wagons, it's only too easy to avoid really making commitments. You see me talking about this in the last game. I believe you even liked the post.

it has nothing to do with "stifling discussion" where the **** are you getting this from. Its a ****ing anchoring technique. Early momentum on a wagon sends the message that this wagon will be an acceptable contender no matter the discourse because it showed viability quickly and easily. This has NOTHING to do with shutting down discussion dude

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

[QUOTE="#HBC | This initial soup wagon made me want to ****ing puke, guarantee there are scum in that group of 4. My gut tells me maybe two. Best guess would be Ryker and Lore. When I saw this initially I felt real bad about marshy but his later stuff this day phase has made me feel better about the slot. Ryker continues to slowly drop for me for reasons I'll expand on later and pythag continues to be a big fat ? for me, definitely one of the most confusing slots to read this game imo. This early wagon just ****in reeks of scum trying to pidgeonhole our choices today by anchoring us to a "soup wagon or one alternative" dichotemy by forcing focus around soup with early pressure to make it seem like his wagon is a foregone conclusion
[/QUOTE]
See bolded. How am I NOT supposed to reach that conclusion when it's what you've implied there?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

EBWOP

[QUOTE="#HBC | FrozeηFlame]This initial soup wagon made me want to ****ing puke, guarantee there are scum in that group of 4. My gut tells me maybe two. Best guess would be Ryker and Lore. When I saw this initially I felt real bad about marshy but his later stuff this day phase has made me feel better about the slot. Ryker continues to slowly drop for me for reasons I'll expand on later and pythag continues to be a big fat ? for me, definitely one of the most confusing slots to read this game imo. This early wagon just ****in reeks of scum trying to pidgeonhole our choices today by anchoring us to a "soup wagon or one alternative" dichotemy by forcing focus around soup with early pressure to make it seem like his wagon is a foregone conclusion
[/QUOTE]

See bolded. How am I NOT supposed to reach that conclusion when it's what you've implied there?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

****ING EBWOP

This initial soup wagon made me want to ****ing puke, guarantee there are scum in that group of 4. My gut tells me maybe two. Best guess would be Ryker and Lore. When I saw this initially I felt real bad about marshy but his later stuff this day phase has made me feel better about the slot. Ryker continues to slowly drop for me for reasons I'll expand on later and pythag continues to be a big fat ? for me, definitely one of the most confusing slots to read this game imo. This early wagon just ****in reeks of scum trying to pidgeonhole our choices today by anchoring us to a "soup wagon or one alternative" dichotemy by forcing focus around soup with early pressure to make it seem like his wagon is a foregone conclusion

See bolded. How am I NOT supposed to reach that conclusion when it's what you've implied there?

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

****ING EBWOP


See bolded. How am I NOT supposed to reach that conclusion when it's what you've implied there?

by reading all the non bolded parts surrounding them and using reading comprehension to figure out Im talking specifically about anchoring which I mentioned by name in order to describe the benefit scum gets from keep town!soup on the ballot for free if they are looking to force a trade

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

4. Lol youre smart enough to fake an easy altruistic long hanging fruit play, dont be so ****ing indignant and play thebl victim. Sure it couldve been genuine but the way you wrote the post made it read more like signaling than being genuinely town motivated

Except you lead with "This is grime af." My wording there was to make it obvious I didn't intend to hide behind that sentiment. I hate the way you come out with a confident claim that "this post is disgusting" and then when questioned on it say "Sure, it could've been genuine." I don't see any sort of justification for what should make you lean this far in one direction unless you're just looking for reasons to scumread me.

Are you gonna **** on me for pushing him to L-1 there? I don't understand what you want me to do in that scenario (or in the one we're in right now) short of completely reverse my biggest read in the game without a sufficient reason to.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

by reading all the non bolded parts surrounding them and using reading comprehension to figure out Im talking specifically about anchoring which I mentioned by name in order to describe the benefit scum gets from keep town!soup on the ballot for free if they are looking to force a trade

Wait, wait, wait. Are we back in super secret scum planning territory again? By forcing a trade, are you assuming scum!Lore and scumbags pushing to off Soup in a coordinated fashion?

In either case, the players you are talking about are me (who as of that votecount had already cased Soup), Marshy who I THINK was on Soup at EoD1, Lore who is the other choice de facto and has been vocal about lynching Soup since D1, and Pythag whose behavior I cannot remember and will concede.

You have up to two of them as scum (Lore being your leading candidate and myself runner-up). Does this anchoring on the votecount, which, for at least your two leading candidates, is entirely in character for most of these slots based on their previous phase, actually make them look worse or are you trying to paint them as terrible for acting on the reads they've been professing for days now?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

That's all I'm going to come back to for now.

I am waiting on you to sell me Soup town. Since it's going to be a game of telephone with no time left in the day phase, I'll go ahead and save you some time and say that your claim speculation and AtE reactions are not going to fly with me for reasons that I, and others, have outlined. You say his play is a travesty, but that he's town. What exactly is the reasoning?

 

[#HBC | marshy]

dam

 

[#HBC | marshy]

ryker

does frozen go to war w/like 1/3 of the game as scum here? what about as partners with soup? whats the angle here?

 

[#HBC | marshy]

@Pythag - help me with marshy
Man, I'm stuck on him. I really really want him to be town. He's been asking interesting questions, but I'm still stuck on his reaction to soup.

specifically these two posts :

1 1035

2 1059

the first one, I don't know why you would assume scum would kill an oracle. That seems like it only benefits town. Unless he's referring to town would lynch him.

the second one...if there's actual doubt, I don't totally know why he would voice this. Gorf called him out saying "then vote orange." It just hit me as weird.

1 soup was dead as soon as he claimed either by town or scum. outed investigatives rarely, if ever, live to endgame. it just doesnt happen

2 i was just thinking aloud

i dont get why you take issue with me thinking over the consequences of lynching the potential oracle when other players flat out refused to lynch him because of it

 

[#HBC | marshy]

This initial soup wagon made me want to ****ing puke, guarantee there are scum in that group of 4. My gut tells me maybe two. Best guess would be Ryker and Lore....This early wagon just ****in reeks of scum trying to pidgeonhole our choices today by anchoring us to a "soup wagon or one alternative" dichotemy by forcing focus around soup with early pressure to make it seem like his wagon is a foregone conclusion

this is a problem ive had with this phase

why the **** has no one tried to set up a competing wagon to soup this phase? ive heard some sentiment about the gridlock but hav seen no action

the town has felt choked and stuck this phase. specifically the group of players (like tom, gorf, even kevin a bit) who havent been voting soup

why do you think its likelier that the ppl pushing soup contain scum vs the ppl who are offwagon just chilling? soup has def been getting **** on from the onset and in a world where hes town hes done a decent job of hanging himself. if im scum i just let him die while talking about idle **** elsewhere. in a vacuum im more concerned with ppl keeping their hands free of it than attacking a sinking ship. if a townies uncomfortable with the lynch they hav a responsibility to push elsewhere

 

[#HBC | marshy]

also frozen

it seemed you initially read soup as town for his ate -> scrambling frustration of being pushed and subsequent claim. my question now is

what % of your reads based off of that versus "the game makes more sense with soup as town?" give me like a ratio plz and would appreciate any discussion as to how that second idea developed as you read thru the game