Whose Mafia Is it Anyway - Game Over!

KevinM

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So then be clear, are you or are not still thinking Soup might be scum?
I think the way Soup is playing is inherently anti-town but it’s also the same way he used to act like a ****ing baby whenever a lynch pool happened on him. I don’t think there’s a chance in hell Lore vs Soup is SvS. And I’d be pretty ***** to believe its TvT
 

KevinM

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This is why the fact that we’ve centered an entire game around two slots and then somehow miraculously got pushed to a third option at end of day D1 was so incredibly anti town it’s wild.

It’s why the shift towards Orange at the end of the day is the most important wagon to be looking at
 

KevinM

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It’s also why I think you continuously forcing just one read based off of nothing with random slots that happen to be active at the time isn’t helping the game, you’re not looking at it with an inherently town viewpoint
 

KevinM

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God I hate Toms end of D1 so much. He keeps insisting after ISO’ing Lore that Lore is scum but he’d be fine with the last second lynch of Orange also... since when do you ever not just trust your hard read on a 50/50 Tom?
 

Lore

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Nothing to lose minus mislynching a townie on D2 with no scum hit already, a game that’s basically been tunneled entirely on two slots, and becoming a cleared slot in a game with no doctor. But yeah other than that it is clearly win win.
This is the part of my Ran push that still feels off to me. Ignoring the contradictions etc as stated previously, I'm baffled why a town player would turn down an opportunity to defend their town read (and a claimed PR!) by directly choosing not to pressure a player who has had barely any on them all game.


It’s also why I think you continuously forcing just one read based off of nothing with random slots that happen to be active at the time isn’t helping the game, you’re not looking at it with an inherently town viewpoint
Mind expanding this and explaining it further? Not sure if I follow, but I'm also kinda half here right now mentally.
 

Fandangox

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Oh look I changed this
I think the way Soup is playing is inherently anti-town but it’s also the same way he used to act like a ****ing baby whenever a lynch pool happened on him. I don’t think there’s a chance in hell Lore vs Soup is SvS. And I’d be pretty ***** to believe its TvT
I mean if you don't think he is scum then I have no problem with you voting Lore, but I guess Im gonna have to wait on Ryker showing up for you elaborate on that slot.
 

giraffelasergun

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Deadline is at 8 PM CST, 9.5 hours from this post.

Votecount:

Soup (4): Marshy, Pythag, Fandangox, Lore
FrozenFlame(1): Soup
Lore(4): Ryker, FrozenFlame, KevinM, Gorf

Not Voting(2): Tom, Ranmaru,

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
 

Pythag

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1 soup was dead as soon as he claimed either by town or scum. outed investigatives rarely, if ever, live to endgame. it just doesnt happen
Are you presuming a mafia hit here?

2 i was just thinking aloud

i dont get why you take issue with me thinking over the consequences of lynching the potential oracle when other players flat out refused to lynch him because of it
because it looks like, or reads like to me like you could be trying to set up an out for when soup flips town. I didn't like that.

Do you not see that?
 

Tom

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God I hate Toms end of D1 so much. He keeps insisting after ISO’ing Lore that Lore is scum but he’d be fine with the last second lynch of Orange also... since when do you ever not just trust your hard read on a 50/50 Tom?
I had a moment of weakness
 

Tom

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@HBC | Gorf - on my comment that ‘doop=spak is grokkable but not meaningful,’ I feel that while it was something that *feels* like it makes sense, and doop was scum for being aggro-negative on marshy early D1 last game, it doesn’t make the behavior a universal scumtell. So it feels like it wants to be a pattern but doesn’t mean it was.


****


Ranmaru Ranmaru - to answer your question on Tomafia Lore!scum, he bussed the hell out of his partner D1 when his partner was playing poorly and attracting unnecessary attention. I brought the question up to Pythag because 1: Pythag was in that game; 2: Pythag used last half-game as a base on Lore’s meta but not Tomafia 4; 3: to me it means it is absolutely possible that Soup and Lore are both scum. If Soup plays poorly, Lore can bus, no doubt about it. To continue, Lore then took a leadership role in a game where he garnered merit by bussing and directed less experienced townies into each other while making absurdly accurate PR kills at night. He buddied with the other vocal town leader until killing him right before final lylo.


****


I’m seriously stuck on this Soup dilemma and my decision is that he must go. I feel that he is going to be alive all game if we do not lynch him and he will keep getting his lynch-can kicked down the road until final lylo. I need a receipt on this one. However, I have started to feel better about a couple players due to their defense of Soup - notably Ranmaru and FF.


****


@HBC | Ryker - I’ll do my best to create some summaries now:

Ranmaru: I place Ranmaru very highly on my list right now because he is sticking strongly to his assessment of town!Soup, which is something I feel like I would like to do but in the end I have decided not to do. However Kevin’s strong anti-Ran stance gives me pause.


Ryker: Very hard for me to put Ryker is scum-camp… becomes much easier if Soup flips town and I find that I disagree with where his head goes next. Personally I put soup-must-die mostly on Ryker and secondly on Marshy, and so they both drop hard on my list if 1: they are wrong; 2: i dislike how they take their next steps. Ryker is active, he is smart, and he entertains my ideas when I propose them. I find myself giving him the benefit of the doubt even when, for instance, FF comes in hard and hot last night in a discussion against Ryker (a lot about meta or theory) and I agree with what FF is saying and Ryker seriously does not.


KevinM: now that he’s here and active I am happy hearing what he is saying. I also place him highly here because I anticipate a soup lynch which helps me figure him out / put him off til later.


Fandango: Fandango could be scum, maybe I put him as a Ryker that I give less benefit of the doubt.


Marshy: super difficult to read. Went super hard against Soup and because we haven’t had the result on that one yet, I feel I don’t have a lot to parse marshy with. However, I don’t give him points just for asking me questions.


Gorf: with Gorf the question for me is do I blame him for the orange mislynch and do I agree with his assessment of pythag!town and FF!town. I don’t really agree with those gutfeels and so I place Gorf low my keeplist.


Pythag: Pythag has town-read me the majority of the game and it makes me feel like Pythag!scum-Kevin!scum could be a thing and they’ll keep me alive forever as a pet rock. I feel that Lore and Pythag can be scum together. Pythag is a player that I feel I have the most web-connections drawn to other players.


Frozen: I was seriously unhappy with FF until last night and now that he’s here and defending soup!town I start to feel… better about him. Kevin is correct that a lot of Ryker-FF discussion from last night is theory and hard to make count for anything but I find FF to be a confident player and when he is active he can stay. He’s risen higher on my keeplist since I put it out in #1737


Lore: gotta go. His play matches less of scum!Lore meta from Tomafia 4 than I would like, but I think he learns and grows faster than we think he does, especially considering I have a feel that he has been playing dumb this game.


Soup: gotta go. Generates actual value even if a mislynch, this value can only be generated once (or never, if we allow him to live and scum kills his seer target), and he casts a huge shadow over everything right now.


****


KevinM KevinM : If marshy is scum, I look at Ryker (i feel their play is parallel, esp considering Soup) and… hmm. Good ****ing question. Pythag?


****


I’m ready to vote Soup.
 

Tom

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That is literally how I feel, but for me there are two unknown alignments and for you theres only one.

I think it is anti town but I dont think I can personally blame you for it. You've been through hell (of your own making, but also so many people have negged you with personal comments this game that scum definitely did it too) this game and it still generates value.

Soup can I say - I dont think I want to play mafia with you again, but I would gladly act recreationally with you on my own dime.
 

#HBC | ѕoup

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Alright the least I can do is not self-hammer then. I've neglected a lore read but I'm digging the angle about fanny people have been giving
 

KevinM

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I just find it funny most people think I'm town despite constantly ****ting on me.
I don’t think most people think you’re town, i also think you basically not playing Mafia for most of D1 after acting like a 12 year old is a solid for people ****ting on you when this game was genuinely chill and for some a reunion game of sorts. But that’s neither here nor there and it’s been discussed enough.
 

Tom

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If Vig is in this game, they shoot tonight. We have 3 to 4 flips. That's enough to shoot your shot especially if they didnt shoot last night.

Soup>Lore>Fan>Pythag would probably be my shot order with Fan being the ballsy call
 

Pythag

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1) how strongly do we feel that there is scum between soup and lore?

um, not the strongest.
If there's scum it's soup.

I do not think lore is scum.

my thoughts on soup :

soup is a coin flip, because I get what he's saying. But, it's really hard when I see other members say : 'not falling for it' remembering old games that I haven't played. I resonate with his defenses, but that can easily be hand waved away with 'soup always does AtE, which makes me feel like a big ol' dummy for believing him.

soup hasn't been playing in the most pro town way from my view
soup has also seemingly turned on an emotional dime.
I can't figure out if this is pandering or just him matching the tone of whomever he is speaking to - see > responds to anger and sarcasm much more biting, but actually had a conversation with me, and I was one of his scum reads.

AT THE SAME TIME, at least from my reading, a lot of conversation has been treating soup like he's no doubt an oracle. And there is somehow the idea that 'soup is definitely scummy' right in tandem with 'soup is definitely oracle.' This confuses the heck out of me. Consider me bamboozled.


So here's the question then :
"ok Pythag Pythag if Orange, Lore, and Soup are all town though, where's scum?"

uhhh, here's my thoughts on each person, I guess if they were scum :

scum!fanny? Most of his interactions appear to be going after easy targets, with a majority of his discussions being with soup, lore, orange and me. Is His hammer vote and asking Ryker (at least at that point a more trusted townie) could be seen as an appeal to authority.

scum!Kevin hitting us with the hot reads, that at least as a more inexperienced player, it's intimidating. BUT
he certainly wouldn't want a legit oracle to be voted on, and I think right now he's pushing for a lore wagon to compete with soup.

if either of those are a possibility, would a scum!Kevin be setting up a bus of scum!fanny? He's mentioned that Fanny's a bingo at least twice now.
I don't think Fanny hasn't engaged in this, (though feel free to point it to me to the quote) yet fanny did engage with me when I was sniffing around with a gut read.

Scum!marshy? he did vote for soup D1. Wouldn't you give an oracle claim 1 day to seer someone? Expressed doubts or anticipated regret at soup flipping oracle.

imo, If an oracle is outed, I literally think the town is going to have to kill it. I don't think mafia would give that read to town for free. soup town flip any day honestly makes everyone on the D1 lynch look terrible in my eyes.

Scum!Tom? His EoD seems to be his most damning evidence, or early play D1. I actually feel great affinity with this though, because I feel similarly confused, and there's hesitation as I want to make the right call.

Scum!Gorf? It's hard to get scum reads on someone who has an affinity with the all seeing eye. The only way I see this is him being a manipulator and knowing how to get town on his side. I don't think Gorf would strong arm people, in fact I think he would scum hunt (although he Ascended against JTB and it was kind of a nothing post) He's been tilting his hand "if i were scum I would 'blah blah blah' which is either true, or he's trying to play to weaker townies.

Scum!Ryker? If he's scum then he's letting town give themselves enough rope so he can come in, tell everyone they're dumb for not seeing the true scum play, and then hanging them with it.

Scum!FF? He has been not as active, while there was an extreme lack of info. Is it scummy to come in the last day and blow up the game?

I meant it when I said I feel the game is gridlocked, because right now so much depends on soup. From my perspective he almost has to be the play.

2) how strongly do we feel about the possibility that theyre both scum
I really don't think this is the case.

Tom Tom
Pythag: Pythag has town-read me the majority of the game and it makes me feel like Pythag!scum-Kevin!scum could be a thing and they’ll keep me alive forever as a pet rock.
I literally feel this about Gorf.
 

Lore

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Lore: gotta go. His play matches less of scum!Lore meta from Tomafia 4 than I would like, but I think he learns and grows faster than we think he does, especially considering I have a feel that he has been playing dumb this game.
Well this will be awkward post game or post flip lol. I can at least assure you that I wouldn't play dumb, I'd find that to be in poor taste. I really am just doing this poorly.

More self meta/general playstyle talk below, put into a spoiler so it doesn't clog up the page.

On the plus side, I'm getting more and more notes on how to improve. Thanks for mentioning that you think I'm learning; I really am trying, and I've been using this game as an opportunity to get as much constructive criticism as possible. To put it simply, I'm tired of being lynchbait and just generally bringing down the thread. So I've been trying to ask pretty much everyone how I've been doing, what specifically they dislike, etc.

Ironically I was less lynchbait in Tomafia as scum, but I think that was more to do with how bad <pi looked in comparison early D1. Plus tbh I think I might enjoy playing scum more than playing town? I get some major decision freezing/anxiety early as town, and I usually have no clue what direction to even begin. At least as scum, you have most if not all of the important pieces known to you.

I think the best comparison is that if this was dnd, town feels like being a player while scum feels like a dm. Loose metaphor but I think you know what I mean. I tend to prefer DMing irl too, where I know all the pieces and can just focus on making the game as fun as possible.

That kinda bled into Tomafia too, with my constant politeness to people and general chat; I wanted people to die, but **** I ended up hating the Medi case. To get him mislynched, I more or less had to gaslight that dude and give a false impression of what he was saying. Sure I won, but I feel like I could have handled that in a way that was less hard on him. No clue how to do that though, since winning as scum more or less means getting people lynched on faulty cases.

Post this game, I'd love to chat with you on this subject and see if you feel similarly on the dm/player dynamic as it relates to mafia.
 

Lore

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Ranmaru Ranmaru - to answer your question on Tomafia Lore!scum, he bussed the hell out of his partner D1 when his partner was playing poorly and attracting unnecessary attention. I brought the question up to Pythag because 1: Pythag was in that game; 2: Pythag used last half-game as a base on Lore’s meta but not Tomafia 4; 3: to me it means it is absolutely possible that Soup and Lore are both scum. If Soup plays poorly, Lore can bus, no doubt about it. To continue, Lore then took a leadership role in a game where he garnered merit by bussing and directed less experienced townies into each other while making absurdly accurate PR kills at night. He buddied with the other vocal town leader until killing him right before final lylo.
Missed this portion.

Dude my stomach dropped so hard when <pi literally bragged about how good he was as scum almost immediately post-RVS. That was rough to see happen lol.

But on that note, Tomafia is why I'm always baffled when people say scum wouldn't bus their partner early. Yes, they totally ****ing would. And keeping that as a common perception only helps Scum.

I do like to think that I wouldn't do that two games in a row as scum, but directly saying that is straight up meta WIFOM and is unhelpful.


On that note, how do you guys talk about meta strategic/theory stuff in thread without it being just piles of null at best and WIFOM at worst? I guess by saving it for post game?
 

Lore

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That’s at pythons wall not yours my bad
No worries, you're good.


Quick question to the thread in general: how do you guys stay away from the thread? This style of game is like a constant hit of excitement for me, and even though I logically know that I can't mentally dive deep right now due to stress, I keep coming back here. It's like an urge that I might miss something cool or fun.

It's why I post so much too. I find this style of game just way too fun, and it feels almost impossible for me to step back for long enough. How do you guys do it?
 

#HBC | marshy

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were at the point where we hav to go who ppl believe is scummiest. no more mechanical **** cuz if soup flips town scum get off scotfree cuz "loloracle"
 
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