Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Z1GMA]

"If Smash Characters were true to their games"... Ring a bell?

 

[RogersBase]

Probably Palutena considering the fact that she's a goddess.

 

[LeeYawshee]

Rosalina is not immortal or a goddess. She didn't create an entire universe, she just sent all her Lumas into the black hole to neutralize it. She can't create or reset a universe unless she uses all of her Lumas and has a black hole, she wouldn't just kill her Lumas unless she had a very good reason. She would never kill her children for such a pathetic reason. She can only use one Luma because characters shouldn't be allowed to bring entire armies. Bowser has to fight by himself and can't bring his entire army, Olimar can only use six pikmin, and Pokemon Trainer can only bring six pokemon. She can't destroy universes, only create.

We already established that armies would not be allowed. Also, characters should be limited to the partners they brought in the smash series. Either way Rosalina needs her entire army and a black hole to reset the universe, it would be pretty unfair to give her more than what she gets in smash and she can't do all that with one Luma. Do you want Olimar to bring out 999 of each pikmin type? That would be 6993 pikmin if we limit ourselves to game mechanics. Bring in more onions to hold them and there would be more. Bowser's army sent out all at once would be even worse for the majority of the fighters.

Mario makes one character. Rosalina and one Luma make one character. Olimar and six pikmin make one character. Popo and Nana make one character.

You cannot add to a character unless it's weaponry, armor, or items.

WHERE DOES IT EVER SAY ROSALINA IS A GODDESS BECAUSE I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO KNOW!

We cannot set the battle in the middle of space.

As you read this, understand that my opinion of Rosalina being the strongest has weakened significantly.
Rosalina is treated as a goddess because the role of most gods and goddesses is to watch over their respective area. Rosalina watches over all of the galaxies and has to PROTECT them. This PRESUMABLY (not 100% fact, don't harass me about it) means she has some incredible powers that she would use if things went HORRIBLY wrong. Bowser ****ing her up slightly =/= Bowser ****ing up the entire universe. But maybe part of it.

In Kid Icarus, I recall Palutena being out of the picture because of Medusa. In Uprising, the battle against Medusa, it took Palutena some time to bind Medusa's legs, otherwise, Palutena would have done this from the start. This isn't to downplay Palutena, however, since she's dealing with someone who is at least on par with power. After defeating Medusa, Palutena tells Pit he did it, not her. As for Hades, Palutena charges the cannon from the Great Sacred Treasure. I've already stated that Palutena will be above Pit in the tier list. She could be higher, but we don't know and can't assume that "goddess" proves anything.



That's like saying Link placed back the Master Sword in OoT, therefore, he doesn't get to use it in battle.



That one person who wrote something to show why Ness is higher on the tier list never replied when I critiqued Ness' PSI abilities.

In Kid Icarus, I recall Palutena being out of the picture because of Medusa. In Uprising, the battle against Medusa, it took Palutena some time to bind Medusa's legs, otherwise, Palutena would have done this from the start. This isn't to downplay Palutena, however, since she's dealing with someone who is at least on par with power. After defeating Medusa, Palutena tells Pit he did it, not her. As for Hades, Palutena charges the cannon from the Great Sacred Treasure. I've already stated that Palutena will be above Pit in the tier list. She could be higher, but we don't know and can't assume that "goddess" proves anything.

We know that Palutena cannot risk her body as if she were to die, it would cause massive havoc and everyone else would win. We have also never seen Palutena at her fullest potential but this applies to many characters.

 

[nessokman]

Define "direct gameplay [sic]" and then prove that cut-scenes and game play have to match up.



I'm simply saying any constraints you put on Pit or any character, you must place on Link as well.

^this^

How is Paralysis cast? Is it fired like in The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim? Does it cover an area, and if so, what is the radius?

Being on the SNES with graphical limitations and the like, we don't know of it's range. It is, however, fired in a ray/blast. The animation for it is very similar to Paula's fire attacks.

How does this exactly work? If you don't trust someone who is going to try to hypnotize you, or if you don't believe hypnotism works, it won't work. Hypnotists can't hypnotize you if you don't want to be.

Ness' Hypnotism is indiscriminate. If an enemy is hit, they fall asleep. It isn't a mind control type hypnosis, it is closer to the Pokemon move by the same name. The time varies of how long they are asleep.

How does the healing work? Does it just heal weariness? Or does it heal wounds? Or both? Can it restore a broken arm or regenerate one that has been blown off? As for physical attacks, any examples?

Healing simply restores Ness and/or his teammates health. It can be assumed that this can also be used at a large range, because there is no way all four of them are close together during some of their bigger fights.

Ness' PSI lifeup can restore a large amount of health, and his PSI healing can go as far as to revive fallen comrades. I would say that they can heal any injury.

I don't know of anything similar to weariness in the game, there is homesickness, which Ness gets. Can only be fiixed with a phone call with his mom or visiting her.

Physical attacks being anything that hits Ness directly, and he can ward off large amounts of that damage with sheilds.

I am not aware of any sacred light. Are you referring to PSI Flash? I see the description say "glorious light", but not "sacred light".

You're right here, that guy didn't know what he was talking about

Ness' shield is described as producing a "shield of light", and solid light is an actual thing. That might not necessarily be what Ness is doing, but it's the closest real-world example. The description also says it halves the damage and some of the blocked damage is dealt back. How exactly does the latter work?

In Earthbound, the shields only cut half the damage from any attack. There are shields that cut physical damage in half, and there are shields that cut half of any magic attack out.
Some of the damage that is blocked gets reflected back at enemies

So what exactly is to be drawn from this that makes Ness one of the most, if not the most powerful character?[/quote]
He has extremely powerful attacks: PSI Rockin'; PSI Flash
He has insane healing capabilities: PSI Lifeup; PSI healing
Shields capable of warding off half damage from any attack
Assists moves such as paralysis and hypnosis to give him time and open chances to attack
uses yo-yo and baseball bat

He has by far one of the most diverse skillsets in smash

 

[Rabbattack]

How about we start talking about other characters like Pacman and Miis. They were announced around the same time as Palutena but no one seems to care.

I bet no one here knows anything about Pacman since he is just so...

The Miis can use any sporting, party, or instrumental equipment as weapons. They also have access to Mario karts and all other items from that game, although they would be more effective without the kart.

 

[Crystanium]

Being on the SNES with graphical limitations and the like, we don't know of it's range. It is, however, fired in a ray/blast. The animation for it is very similar to Paula's fire attacks.

So, probably like how Paralysis is in The Elder Scrolls.

Ness' Hypnotism is indiscriminate. If an enemy is hit, they fall asleep. It isn't a mind control type hypnosis, it is closer to the Pokemon move by the same name. The time varies of how long they are asleep.

Well, I said the same of the Pokemon move and in both games, it is possible for enemies to not be affected.

Healing simply restores Ness and/or his teammates health. It can be assumed that this can also be used at a large range, because there is no way all four of them are close together during some of their bigger fights.

I was just curious how much is restored. If it's just cuts and bruises, or internal damage, or broken bones, or amputation.

Ness' PSI lifeup can restore a large amount of health, and his PSI healing can go as far as to revive fallen comrades. I would say that they can heal any injury.

I'm not sure if his friends are dead or just passed out, due to weariness.

I don't know of anything similar to weariness in the game, there is homesickness, which Ness gets. Can only be fiixed with a phone call with his mom or visiting her.

Well, I know there's sunstroke, which can be healed, so Lifeup is different from the other healing ability as far as I'm aware.

Physical attacks being anything that hits Ness directly, and he can ward off large amounts of that damage with sheilds.

So, another way would be saying "direct attacks" (e.g., punches, kicks, swords) as opposed to "indirect attacks" (e.g., arrows, beams, explosives)?

In Earthbound, the shields only cut half the damage from any attack. There are shields that cut physical damage in half, and there are shields that cut half of any magic attack out.
Some of the damage that is blocked gets reflected back at enemies

I'm curious how this works, what the range is, and how fast it is.

He has extremely powerful attacks: PSI Rockin'; PSI Flash

But these, unfortunately, cannot be quantified. I don't doubt these two attacks are Ness' most powerful, but if I could calculate them, that would be great. It just doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

On par in this case meaning "close enough to use it in my argument." I seriously doubt in legit raw power that he has really compares to those legendaries.


I argue that the only reason he is close to them in game is because if the game creators made them any stronger, they would be horribly broken.I'm sorry, ridiculous psychic power is cool and all, but he isn't warping space/time or creating the universe.

Look at the numbers. Stats wise that's where he falls. I could just make conjecture based on my own opinions of how cool he is, but games helpfully provide a static power level for every Pokemon. And Mewtwo is exactly as powerful as the ones I listed, plus a few other legendary titans. We are told his power is at the ultimate level and even the anime calls him the most powerful pokemon in creation. His in game abilities and stats support this statement. While a small handful of Mons are more powerful, they are creation beings. And if we allow Mewtwo his Mega Formes then he surpasses them all.

Edit: also, considering the anime's influence on Mewto in Smash I still say we should be drawing from that for information. After all, shadow ball is his signature move, something he has never been able to learn naturally.

 

[Deleted member]

I think Pac-man is the strongest character. He has ascended to become the Deity of the Arcade Era of Video Games, and He has arrived to challenge all the foolish mortals (or immortals in the case of Palutena and maybe Pit?) who think they can stand up to His greatness.

 

[IvanQuote]

Quick question about Samus: are we considering her in her Zero Suit and her in her Power Suit as different characters (basically SA-X), or is it just one character? If the latter is true, if her Power Suit is wrecked, could she continue fighting in her Zero Suit form? (not sure whether "game overs" represent her dying or just her Power Suit going offline and succumbing to a harsh environment without its protection)

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Quick question about Samus: are we considering her in her Zero Suit and her in her Power Suit as different characters (basically SA-X), or is it just one character? If the latter is true, if her Power Suit is wrecked, could she continue fighting in her Zero Suit form? (not sure whether "game overs" represent her dying or just her Power Suit going offline and succumbing to a harsh environment without its protection)

Er, we should consider them one person, but in Samus' own games she's pathetic in the power suit. At no point would she want to figt in it.

 

[IvanQuote]

Er, we should consider them one person, but in Samus' own games she's pathetic in the power suit. At no point would she want to figt in it.

Sorry, by "Power Suit" I meant the armored suit with the arm cannon in general (with power ups, Varia, Gravity, etc.), not just its base form. Though this does answer my question, so thank you.

 

[Crystanium]

Quick question about Samus: are we considering her in her Zero Suit and her in her Power Suit as different characters (basically SA-X), or is it just one character? If the latter is true, if her Power Suit is wrecked, could she continue fighting in her Zero Suit form? (not sure whether "game overs" represent her dying or just her Power Suit going offline and succumbing to a harsh environment without its protection)

Samus would still be in her Zero Suit. She would only have her Paralyzer, but she's still capable of using Sense Move and could eventually restore her Power Suit. In the other thread before this one, Samus was placed higher on the tier list, while only in the Zero Suit was lower.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

... well, ****, I got the names mixed up. I meant zero suit.

 

[nessokman]

Well, I said the same of the Pokemon move and in both games, it is possible for enemies to not be affected.

Yeah, it has a meh hit rate.

I was just curious how much is restored. If it's just cuts and bruises, or internal damage, or broken bones, or amputation.

For ness, healing rates go as follows-

Lifeup alpha- restores 75-125 HP;can only be used on 1 person at a time.
Lifeup Beta-restores 225-375 HP;can only be used on 1 person at a time.
Lifeup gamma-fully heals all HP;usable on only one character at a time.
Lifeup Omega- restores 300-500 HP to all allies.

Healing-(note that the higher level ones also do what lower ones do)

Healing alpha- Recover from a sunstroke, cold or sleepiness; only 1 person at a time

Healing Beta-poison, nausea, crying and feeling strange; only 1 person at a time

Healing Gamma-numbness, diamondize and unconsciousness; one person at a time

Ness is unable to learn the omega iteration of healing, which fully recovers incapacitation.(gamma only brings them back with less than half health)

They can fully restore any kind of injury. If ness takes a hit of, say, 900 damage, it says he is mortally wounded. You can use Lifeup before the health meter hits zero to heal him and keep him from being killed.

Ness can save people who are mortally wounded.

I'm not sure if his friends are dead or just passed out, due to weariness.

They appear as angels behind him if their health reaches zero.

Well, I know there's sunstroke, which can be healed, so Lifeup is different from the other healing ability as far as I'm aware.

Lifeup is for restoring health, things that would fall under that category would be broken bones,internal bleeding, cuts, etc.

Healing mostly works on status effects, such as numbness and incapacitation.

So, another way would be saying "direct attacks" (e.g., punches, kicks, swords) as opposed to "indirect attacks" (e.g., arrows, beams, explosives)?

Bombs and beams are effected just the same. Nobody in the series uses arrows, so....

I'm curious how this works, what the range is, and how fast it is.



But these, unfortunately, cannot be quantified. I don't doubt these two attacks are Ness' most powerful, but if I could calculate them, that would be great. It just doesn't seem to be the case.

You can judge PSI rockin's power.the omega psi rockin does 320-960 damage.(average of 640)

A regular run-of-the-mill dog has 16 HP.

Look at the numbers. Stats wise that's where he falls. I could just make conjecture based on my own opinions of how cool he is, but games helpfully provide a static power level for every Pokemon. And Mewtwo is exactly as powerful as the ones I listed, plus a few other legendary titans. We are told his power is at the ultimate level and even the anime calls him the most powerful pokemon in creation. His in game abilities and stats support this statement. While a small handful of Mons are more powerful, they are creation beings. And if we allow Mewtwo his Mega Formes then he surpasses them all.

Edit: also, considering the anime's influence on Mewto in Smash I still say we should be drawing from that for information. After all, shadow ball is his signature move, something he has never been able to learn naturally.

One thing you have to consider is the arrogance of man. People made mewtwo, so of course they will say that their pokemon is the strongest/ultimate. They may also think he is so strong because he can beat any normal pokemon they try I use to beat him. Mewtwo has never been put in a real fight against another legendary.

Mewtwo is just another regular legendary. You clearly didn't understand what I said. The pokemon game series has normal pokemon, and then they have legendaries, each one a god compared to the others.

The legendaries have been shown to have rediculous powers, being able to warp space and time being some. It would be clearly impossible for a pokemon such as Pikachu take out the power of Dialga.

the game makers have to keep legendaries relatively low in power so that players stand a chance. Their actual abilities far exceed those stats. You would have to exceed them to do some of the insane moves that they have. mewtwo, a psychic powerhouse probably still doesn't compare to the ones who can warp the fabric of space and time.

 

[Impmacaque]

Rosalina's control over galaxies and space would make her the strongest. No amount of weapons or magic is going to help you resist or escape a supermassive black hole. Just sayin'.

 

[IvanQuote]

While there has been an incorrect assumption that Mr. G&W is some sort of bizarre Eldrich Abomination with no sense of morality, I don't believe his canon abilities have been discussed officially here. Imma run through his games right now:

Ball/Mario the Juggler- He can juggle? Unless he throws the balls he juggles, this is useless.
Flagman- Unless the battle turns into "Simon Says," also useless. (I doubt whacking people with a flag would be useful either.)
Vermin- He has hammers and could probably dual-wield them. Better.
Fire- Depending on who it is, this tells us that he can use a trampoline with assistance, or he can't survive a 3 story fall. Not good.
Judge- See Vermin
Manhole- He can support someone his size + a platform with a single hand/foot, even in an awkward position. This shows he has moderate-high endurance and comparatively moderate strength.
Helmet- He has one, but it cannot protect him from a force made by a falling tool of unknown speed.
Lion- Um, he can hit people with a chair?
Parachute- Unless he is falling from an enormous height, this would not be used. Even if he were, he'd be a sitting duck floating down.
Octopus- He can Scuba and get crushed by the force of a giant octopus?
Popeye- Couldn't really tell what was going on. Does this even count as Mr. Game & Watch?
Chef- Either he lives on a planet of variable gravity, or he has good enough reflexes to micromanage and juggle 3-4 pieces of food at once.
Micky Mouse/Egg- Same problem as Popeye, not that catching eggs in a bag would help any.
Turtle Bridge- Balance enough to cross a bridge of (presumable) slippery turtle shells over a body of water? Also, unless the lake is a colloid of solid in liquid, he is rather light to not submerge on top of the turtles.
Fire Attack- Ahh, here we go. Depending on who it is, he has the hammer again which can knock out/kill people his size with a conk on the head and can break torches flung from the air (reflexes). The other way around, he may have a throwing arm with the torches (perspective is a bit off). Also torches are much more useful than flags.
Snoopy Tennis- Do I have to say it? (See Popeye)
Oil Panic- Could be deadly with a torch, but I can't see him lugging around a barrel of oil to battle.
Donkey Kong- See Popeye, though having Mario's early jumping abilities is nothing to sneeze at give his repertoire.
Micky and Donald- Sigh... See Popeye. A water hose would be very impractical, especially with only one person.
Greenhouse- The pesticides are probably not the best to be inhaled, but I doubt they would be that deadly on their own. Could serve to temporarily throw off attacking rhythm to lead up to a hammer hit or a deadly torch throw.
Donkey Kong II- See the first one. Couldn't tell what was going on.
Mario Bros.- See Popeye (sensing a pattern here.) I doubt a block of cement would help.
RAIN SHOWER!- Has the speed and reflexes to adjust his clotheslines to keep his clothes dry FROM A SINGLE DROP OF RAIN IN THE MIDDLE OF A STORM! And I thought Samus had good reflexes. Too tired to crunch numbers, but apparently rain falls at an average of 21 feet/sec with a diameter of 2 mm. The number of drops in the storm probably total to somewhere in the billions. Wrap your head around THAT!
Lifeboat- Move along citizens. Nothing to see here.
Pinball/Blackjack- ...
Squish- What in the world did I just look at?
Bombsweeper- May go into See Popeye territory. Bomb defusing wouldn't be exactly lucrative unless he puts his Rain Shower reflexes to use and defuse a missile or something mid flight.
Safebuster- Catching stuff (bombs). Eh...
Gold Cliff- He can platform. Woo...
Zelda- I wish, but See Popeye. Having the Triforce, Sword Beam, and a Tomohawk is rather attractive though.

I'll bother with the rest maybe later. Taking a quick look ahead, many of them seem to be licensed and may not count.

 

[Kamiko]

Define "direct gameplay [sic]" and then prove that cut-scenes and game play have to match up.

"Direct gameplay" refers to times you are in control of the character, to the fullest extent the game allows. And I'm not sauing that they "have" to match up, I'm saying that they often don't, and therefore you shouldn't just pick whichever makes your favorite characters look stronger and disregard the other. Instead you should look at both, and use them to determine the developers' intentions for what the characters are capable of. Because very frequently, things happen in games 'just because' that clearly contradicts the ways the world of the game normally function.

I'm simply saying any constraints you put on Pit or any character, you must place on Link as well.

And I've done exactly that.

See, if we just went, "The game lets you do this, so that's exactly how it works", then Toon Link's Light Arrows would instantly kill anything that isn't counted as a boss. But in these character matchups, "bosses" aren't even a thing.

Samus would still be in her Zero Suit. She would only have her Paralyzer, but she's still capable of using Sense Move and could eventually restore her Power Suit. In the other thread before this one, Samus was placed higher on the tier list, while only in the Zero Suit was lower.

Why should Samus not be allowed to use her normal equipment?

 

[Unbias]

Rosalina's control over galaxies and space would make her the strongest. No amount of weapons or magic is going to help you resist or escape a supermassive black hole. Just sayin'.

Without using the boost he managed to nearly outrun a black hole, imagine him at his super form.

Super sonic boost speed > Super Sonic normal speed > Sonic boost speed > Sonic normal speed.

That blackhole isn't catching Sonic in his super form sorry.

 

[Kamiko]

Without using the boost he managed to nearly outrun a black hole, imagine him at his super form.

Super sonic boost speed > Super Sonic normal speed > Sonic boost speed > Sonic normal speed.

That blackhole isn't catching Sonic in his super form sorry.

And this is a great example of why we need to be careful about taking things straight from the game as-is.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Well, a lot of these characters are hideously overpowered in their own universes.

 

[Kamiko]

Well, a lot of these characters are hideously overpowered in their own universes.

There are often inconsistancies though, like how Sonic's movement is normally restricted by rules of acceleration and deceleration, but in animated works he can start, stop, and turn without any need to build up speed or slow down. We should combine everything in ways that make sense in these situations, rather than picking out all the best traits and tossing their disadvantages out the window.

 

[Impmacaque]

I hate to get nerdy on you guys, but I'll elaborate since I'm bored. (Don't hate me for this!)

A black hole is an object with such mass that even light cannot escape its gravitational pull. Nothing in the known universe travels faster than the speed of light. Even if Sonic travels faster than the speed of sound, that is nowhere near as fast as the speed of light. In order for Sonic to escape a black hole, he would have to be faster than light itself, which is itself impossible since light has mass = 0 and sonic has mass > 0.

I don't know of any iteration of Sonic being faster than the speed of light, so Rosalina should have no problem winning that.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

You want to apply sense to electric rodents and pink marshmellows with black hole stomachs?

 

[Kamiko]

You want to apply sense to electric rodents and pink marshmellows with black hole stomachs?

Yes. Not necessarily using real-world physics, but using logical things like heavy things requiring more energy to move.

So no, Sonic would not actually be able to resist the pull of a black hole. That was obviously done because it was cool.

Everyone in here should probably take a look at this before arguing further:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool

 

[Crystanium]

For ness, healing rates go as follows-

Lifeup alpha- restores 75-125 HP;can only be used on 1 person at a time.
Lifeup Beta-restores 225-375 HP;can only be used on 1 person at a time.
Lifeup gamma-fully heals all HP;usable on only one character at a time.
Lifeup Omega- restores 300-500 HP to all allies.

Healing-(note that the higher level ones also do what lower ones do)

Healing alpha- Recover from a sunstroke, cold or sleepiness; only 1 person at a time

Healing Beta-poison, nausea, crying and feeling strange; only 1 person at a time

Healing Gamma-numbness, diamondize and unconsciousness; one person at a time

Ness is unable to learn the omega iteration of healing, which fully recovers incapacitation.(gamma only brings them back with less than half health)

These do not tell the degree of each kind, though.

They can fully restore any kind of injury. If ness takes a hit of, say, 900 damage, it says he is mortally wounded. You can use Lifeup before the health meter hits zero to heal him and keep him from being killed.

Ness can save people who are mortally wounded.

They appear as angels behind him if their health reaches zero.

So Ness can resurrect people. Would this mean damage sustained would still be present, such as a gaping hole through the abdomen?

Lifeup is for restoring health, things that would fall under that category would be broken bones,internal bleeding, cuts, etc.

How do we know this would include broken bones and internal bleeding?

Bombs and beams are effected just the same. Nobody in the series uses arrows, so....

So "direct" would not be the proper word for "physical" in this instance. I was asking because of this thread and Link and Pit use arrows.

You can judge PSI rockin's power.the omega psi rockin does 320-960 damage.(average of 640)

I can't, actually. 320 damage doesn't tell me anything and comparing that with another RPG could mean 320 damage is equal to 3 damage.

One thing you have to consider is the arrogance of man. People made mewtwo, so of course they will say that their pokemon is the strongest/ultimate. They may also think he is so strong because he can beat any normal pokemon they try I use to beat him. Mewtwo has never been put in a real fight against another legendary.

I know this isn't directed at me, but I asked how Mewtwo could be the strongest Pokemon when there are much stronger Pokemon. My resolve for this was that Mewtwo can be considered the strongest, genetically engineered Pokemon, which would be true when compared to statements like, "Ho-Oh is the strongest Pokemon."

Rosalina's control over galaxies and space would make her the strongest. No amount of weapons or magic is going to help you resist or escape a supermassive black hole. Just sayin'.

No it doesn't because Rosalina doesn't have control over galaxies and space. She didn't cause a supermassive black hole and she sure as heck wasn't the reason the destruction of the Marioverse didn't happen. This thing about Rosalina has already been addressed.

"Direct gameplay" refers to times you are in control of the character, to the fullest extent the game allows. And I'm not sauing that they "have" to match up, I'm saying that they often don't, and therefore you shouldn't just pick whichever makes your favorite characters look stronger and disregard the other.

My favorite fictional character of all media is Samus Aran, but I'm not defending Samus here. I have even refuted arguments where people said Samus lived on a planet with extreme gravities, which I calculated to be 960 times greater than Earth's. Why? Because throughout the series I didn't see a consistency and when I instead took textual evidence that says Zebes has a mass of 4.8 trillion teratons, I calculated and learned that Retro Studios flubbed and that 4.8 billion teratons would actually make Zebes have a gravity much closer to Earth's.

You don't know me, so I won't hold that against you. But I even did the same for Pit. People said Pit had the striking strength to destroy mountains and had nanosecond reaction time to dodge lasers. I shot these down. I know there are people who have favorite characters who will try to argue that they're very powerful, but when I look at my favorite characters and feel doubts about claims of their feats, I do what I can to break down what I can.

In recent times concerning Samus' power bombs, someone calculated it to being 8.81 kilotons of TNT. I didn't know where this calculation came from or if it was an accurate method for determining the yield of an explosive, but what I ended up doing was finding a method and I did find one so that when I calculated Samus' power bombs, I ended up with 28.86 tons of TNT as the yield.

Or here's an even better one! Samus acquires the Annihilator Beam, which fires a beam of both matter and anti-matter. The first thing people seemed to say was that Samus could take hits from anti-matter without any serious damage. They compared Quadraxis' "destructive matter-antimatter blast" with the yield of the atom bomb dropped on Hiroshima. Why? Because half a gram of matter and half a gram of anti-matter produces the equivalent.

What was my response? We don't see massive explosions. "Destructive" can be said of locusts that eat crops. And just because something has anti-matter, doesn't necessarily mean it's a nuclear weapon. If we compared the energy produced from at least the Disruptor (the charged version of the Annihilator Beam) to a large grenade (130 kJ), then the amount of matter and anti-matter used would be 723 picograms. To reiterate, I critique characters as thoroughly as I can.

Instead you should look at both, and use them to determine the developers' intentions for what the characters are capable of. Because very frequently, things happen in games 'just because' that clearly contradicts the ways the world of the game normally function.

Believe me, I try to determine what the developers were probably aiming for. I cannot know for certain, so that alone is my interpretation, which needn't be accepted by anyone else. All I can do is try to come up with a reasonable explanation.

See, if we just went, "The game lets you do this, so that's exactly how it works", then Toon Link's Light Arrows would instantly kill anything that isn't counted as a boss. But in these character matchups, "bosses" aren't even a thing.

"Boss" is someone who is just a higher rank by comparison to the canon fodder. You could say Link's light arrows can instantly kill most things, but when pitted against another character of a higher tier, that's another story. Not to mention, greater speed would make it less likely for Link to hit his target(s).

Why should Samus not be allowed to use her normal equipment?

I never said she wasn't.

I hate to get nerdy on you guys, but I'll elaborate since I'm bored. (Don't hate me for this!)

A black hole is an object with such mass that even light cannot escape its gravitational pull. Nothing in the known universe travels faster than the speed of light. Even if Sonic travels faster than the speed of sound, that is nowhere near as fast as the speed of light. In order for Sonic to escape a black hole, he would have to be faster than light itself, which is itself impossible since light has mass = 0 and sonic has mass > 0.

That, or Sonic would need infinite energy. Heck, if Sonic traveled at c, that would mean any time he did this, nuclear explosions would occur. Sonic, according to the series, is 35 kg. This would mean that every time Sonic traveled 99% the speed of light, he would be producing 4.58 gigatons of TNT. But, the series doesn't demonstrate this, so perhaps E = mc^2 doesn't apply in the Sonicverse, at which point, how can we know "speed of light" or "light speed" means the same thing in the Sonicverse?

More here on lasers. Black holes are also questionable in fiction.

I don't know of any iteration of Sonic being faster than the speed of light, so Rosalina should have no problem winning that.

Rosalina has done nothing to make her a very powerful character people seem to make her.

 

[Kamiko]

My favorite fictional character of all media is Samus Aran, but I'm not defending Samus here. I have even refuted arguments where people said Samus lived on a planet with extreme gravities, which I calculated to be 960 times greater than Earth's. Why? Because throughout the series I didn't see a consistency and when I instead took textual evidence that says Zebes has a mass of 4.8 trillion teratons, I calculated and learned that Retro Studios flubbed and that 4.8 billion teratons would actually make Zebes have a gravity much closer to Earth's.

You don't know me, so I won't hold that against you. But I even did the same for Pit. People said Pit had the striking strength to destroy mountains and had nanosecond reaction time to dodge lasers. I shot these down. I know there are people who have favorite characters who will try to argue that they're very powerful, but when I look at my favorite characters and feel doubts about claims of their feats, I do what I can to break down what I can.

In recent times concerning Samus' power bombs, someone calculated it to being 8.81 kilotons of TNT. I didn't know where this calculation came from or if it was an accurate method for determining the yield of an explosive, but what I ended up doing was finding a method and I did find one so that when I calculated Samus' power bombs, I ended up with 28.86 tons of TNT as the yield.

Or here's an even better one! Samus acquires the Annihilator Beam, which fires a beam of both matter and anti-matter. The first thing people seemed to say was that Samus could take hits from anti-matter without any serious damage. They compared Quadraxis' "destructive matter-antimatter blast" with the yield of the atom bomb dropped on Hiroshima. Why? Because half a gram of matter and half a gram of anti-matter produces the equivalent.

What was my response? We don't see massive explosions. "Destructive" can be said of locusts that eat crops. And just because something has anti-matter, doesn't necessarily mean it's a nuclear weapon. If we compared the energy produced from at least the Disruptor (the charged version of the Annihilator Beam) to a large grenade (130 kJ), then the amount of matter and anti-matter used would be 723 picograms. To reiterate, I critique characters as thoroughly as I can.


Believe me, I try to determine what the developers were probably aiming for. I cannot know for certain, so that alone is my interpretation, which needn't be accepted by anyone else. All I can do is try to come up with a reasonable explanation.

Hmm... I see. Can I ask you, then, why you chose to use a cutscene for your calculations? Does Pit's speed while under the player's control match that? If so, then that's fine, but if the speed in that cutscene was a one-time thing, then I don't think it should be used to determine hs capabilities.

"Boss" is someone who is just a higher rank by comparison to the canon fodder. You could say Link's light arrows can instantly kill most things, but when pitted against another character of a higher tier, that's another story. Not to mention, greater speed would make it less likely for Link to hit his target(s).

Logically, yes, "boss" is just a human-given term and should have no affect on these matchups. But in-game, an opponent has to be designated as something that functions differently than normal enemies to be immune to the effects of Light Arrows. Obviously, that's a ridiculous mechanic that would have no effect on an actual encounter, so I was using it as an example of why we should be more logical about what aspects of a game we should use for these comparisons. As another example, nessokman pointed out that Pit can never run out of arrows, but realistically he'd have to expend some kind of energy to fire them. This would apply to anything that games normally let you use infinitely, including Samus' beams and every swing of Link's sword.

Also, I was never arguing that Link would win, I don't think he'd bother with magic arrows against someone as agile as Pit anyway. The original argument was about which of the two arrows was stronger, as nessokman thought that because Pit's were only made of ight without a solid arrow to go with it, they would be more effective against Ganondorf.

I never said she wasn't.

Sorry, you didn't specify which part of the question you were answering, so I mistook it to be in response to the whole thing since you neglected the first part. I get it now though.

 

[Crystanium]

Hmm... I see. Can I ask you, then, why you chose to use a cutscene for your calculations? Does Pit's speed while under the player's control match that? If so, then that's fine, but if the speed in that cutscene was a one-time thing, then I don't think it should be used to determine hs capabilities.

Pit's flight speed is actually not controlled by the player. All the player can do is move up, down, left, and right with diagonals being part of these. In my calculation when Pit was flying to the Lunar Sanctum, he did not attain supersonic speed. I had to determine this by the distance between Pit and the Lunar Sanctum. I don't know the actual distance and I can be wrong about it being even a mile away, since I'd expect it to look much larger prior to Pit getting there.

In another calculation I did with Pit flying into the barrier when he's trying to get to Palutena was a tad easier with guessing the distance. I doubted 100 meters (328 ft.), but thought 150 to 200 m. (492 to 656 ft.) was feasible. This placed Pit in supersonic speed. There was also another instance long ago where I found Pit in the supersonic range after the battle with Hades. This seemed consistent, but it could also be coincidental, which can be said of most fiction, unless otherwise stated. For now, I don't know.

As for reaction time, I did dismiss Pit having microsecond (dodging lightning) and nanosecond (dodging a laser) reaction time because Pit actually appeared to get hit by the lightning, hence him saying, "Ow, ow, ow!" So if Pit could dodge lasers, he would be able to avoid lightning. I personally don't have a problem with using game play for evidence, as even textual and visual evidence can be wrong. The problem with game play is it can involve game mechanics, though some truth can be extracted from game mechanics.

Logically, yes, "boss" is just a human-given term and should have no affect on these matchups. But in-game, an opponent has to be designated as something that functions differently than normal enemies to be immune to the effects of Light Arrows. Obviously, that's a rediculous mechanic that would have no effect on an actual encounter, so I was using it as an example of why we should be more logical about what aspects of a game we should use for these comparisons. As another example, nessokman pointed out that Pit can never run out of arrows, but realistically he'd have to expend some kind of energy to fire them. This would apply to anything that games normally let you use infinitely, including Samus' beams and every swing of Link's sword.

I do not think that's a ridiculous mechanic. If light arrows are not as effective on non-dark enemies, I can see why. The purpose of light arrows is to break the dark barrier protecting Link's opponent from normal weaponry. Ganondorf makes note that the Master Sword, without its sparkle, has no effect on him. This is said after Link tries to harm Ganondorf with the Master Sword. As I said before, some truth can be extracted from game mechanics.

This is also seen in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, where the Dark Beam is ineffective against the Ing, creatures of Dark Aether. The Light Beam, however, is very effective against the Ing, but is not as effective against those who aren't dark in that elemental sense. Even the Luminoth note this, and for this reason, make the Light Beam.

As for infinite ammunition, you could apply infinity to anything and point out what's wrong. Wolverine, after being blown up with only his skeletal remains being intact, did not suffer from any kind of amnesia. Because the brain contains memory, complete destruction would mean that even a regenerated brain would have to start over, and Wolverine would behave like an infant. Or Hulk, with his regeneration, should have a limit, but he "magically" reproduces cells to repair.

And that's not the worst of it. Regeneration would mean no muscle mass, since to get muscles in your arms, for example, you'd require microtears and scarring, but Wolverine and Hulk don't have any scars after they're stabbed and healed, so how much more on the molecular level! As ridiculous as we can say infinity does not actually exist (except in mathematics), there is no reason to limit ammunition for Pit or Samus. Pit could be getting this ammo from Palutena.

Samus can just be drawing molecules into her arm cannon and converting it to beam weapons. In her case, her ammo could be indefinite, but not infinite. Of course, the Chozo and Luminoth can generate energy, so Samus' powered armor is probably saying, "Screw you, physics!" She does turn into energy when using the Morph Ball, so that wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility.

Also, I was never arguing that Link would win, I don't think he'd bother with magic arrows against someone as agile as Pit anyway. The original argument was about which of the two arrows was stronger, as nessokman thought that because Pit's were only made of ight without a solid arrow to go with it, they would be more effective against Ganondorf.

Ah. Well, I'd say Pit's arrows by virtue of being divinely crafted, tops Link's arrows. In terms of Link's enchanted arrows (fire, ice, light arrows), that's a different story. Especially with the light arrows, since they're granted by the goddesses, too.

 

[Kamiko]

Pit's flight speed is actually not controlled by the player. All the player can do is move up, down, left, and right with diagonals being part of these. In my calculation when Pit was flying to the Lunar Sanctum, he did not attain supersonic speed. I had to determine this by the distance between Pit and the Lunar Sanctum. I don't know the actual distance and I can be wrong about it being even a mile away, since I'd expect it to look much larger prior to Pit getting there.

In another calculation I did with Pit flying into the barrier when he's trying to get to Palutena was a tad easier with guessing the distance. I doubted 100 meters (328 ft.), but thought 150 to 200 m. (492 to 656 ft.) was feasible. This placed Pit in supersonic speed. There was also another instance long ago where I found Pit in the supersonic range after the battle with Hades. This seemed consistent, but it could also be coincidental, which can be said of most fiction, unless otherwise stated. For now, I don't know.

As for reaction time, I did dismiss Pit having microsecond (dodging lightning) and nanosecond (dodging a laser) reaction time because Pit actually appeared to get hit by the lightning, hence him saying, "Ow, ow, ow!" So if Pit could dodge lasers, he would be able to avoid lightning. I personally don't have a problem with using game play for evidence, as even textual and visual evidence can be wrong. The problem with game play is it can involve game mechanics, though some truth can be extracted from game mechanics.

Oh, I know the player doesn't control it, I just wanted to know what the speed was. But I've realized now that it's probably not consistant throughout the game. I'll have to go watch some gameplay myself some time.

I do not think that's a ridiculous mechanic. If light arrows are not as effective on non-dark enemies, I can see why. The purpose of light arrows is to break the dark barrier protecting Link's opponent from normal weaponry. Ganondorf makes note that the Master Sword, without its sparkle, has no effect on him. This is said after Link tries to harm Ganondorf with the Master Sword. As I said before, some truth can be extracted from game mechanics.

This is also seen in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, where the Dark Beam is ineffective against the Ing, creatures of Dark Aether. The Light Beam, however, is very effective against the Ing, but is not as effective against those who aren't dark in that elemental sense. Even the Luminoth note this, and for this reason, make the Light Beam.

As for infinite ammunition, you could apply infinity to anything and point out what's wrong. Wolverine, after being blown up with only his skeletal remains being intact, did not suffer from any kind of amnesia. Because the brain contains memory, complete destruction would mean that even a regenerated brain would have to start over, and Wolverine would behave like an infant. Or Hulk, with his regeneration, should have a limit, but he "magically" reproduces cells to repair.

And that's not the worst of it. Regeneration would mean no muscle mass, since to get muscles in your arms, for example, you'd require microtears and scarring, but Wolverine and Hulk don't have any scars after they're stabbed and healed, so how much more on the molecular level! As ridiculous as we can say infinity does not actually exist (except in mathematics), there is no reason to limit ammunition for Pit or Samus. Pit could be getting this ammo from Palutena.

Samus can just be drawing molecules into her arm cannon and converting it to beam weapons. In her case, her ammo could be indefinite, but not infinite. Of course, the Chozo and Luminoth can generate energy, so Samus' powered armor is probably saying, "Screw you, physics!" She does turn into energy when using the Morph Ball, so that wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility.

You don't think it's ridiculous for characters to have to be labeled as "enemy", "boss", or "NPC" to determine whether a Light Arrow would one-shot them? I think you may have misread what I said. I never said anything about light vs dark. That said, the Master Sword doesn't work on Ganondorf just because of light elements, though that would certainly help. It works because it's specifically crafted to counter the effects of the Triforce. Also, the Light Arrows work well on basically everything, not just dark foes, as I stated in a previous post. This includes Link, as seen at the end of Wind Waker if you let one hit you.

As for the rest of that, I'd rather not try to discuss regeneration from nothing, as it obviously just wouldn't work. But a more sensible take on extreme healing would be something like with Ridley, who has to eat for it to work. Marvel just kind of doesn't care about making any sense.

Ah. Well, I'd say Pit's arrows by virtue of being divinely crafted, tops Link's arrows. In terms of Link's enchanted arrows (fire, ice, light arrows), that's a different story. Especially with the light arrows, since they're granted by the goddesses, too.

It was about the Light Arrows specifically, yes. My theory is that they'd be more powerful, but much more exhausting.

 

[Kuraudo]

I haven't read through much of any of this to be honest, but of all the characters we have in the game (for playable characters), my vote would have to go to the likes of Pit, Mewtwo, Palutena (moreso over Pit whose so lethal already), Sonic (due to how Sonic Adventure 2 and beyond introduced the power of Chaos Control) aand....that's about it!

Strongest can be very subjective, especially when we're trying to classify it as physical strength, time/space bending strength, etc.

Pit by himself is pretty strong, but requires the help of Palutena with those powers she bestowed upon him. Using the Three Sacred Treasures and the Great Sacred Treasure however, he's done some pretty wicked things. Mewtwo, while I believe is NOT the most powerful Pokémon to exist (that right goes to Pokémon such as Arceus IMO, and Mew seems to go toe to toe with Mewtwo, not stat wise but still), certainly holds the most ground out of any Pokémon to be featured in the cast. As far as counterpicking Mewtwo goes, Charizard (as seen in Pokémon the Origin) stood the best chance due to his Mega Evolution, though that Mewtwo WAS wild. It's all about plot in the end.

Aaanyway, I'm not investing too much into this whole topic and debate, but yeah, we've got some pretty strong Nintendo characters in this game!

 

[nessokman]

I hate to get nerdy on you guys, but I'll elaborate since I'm bored. (Don't hate me for this!)

A black hole is an object with such mass that even light cannot escape its gravitational pull. Nothing in the known universe travels faster than the speed of light. Even if Sonic travels faster than the speed of sound, that is nowhere near as fast as the speed of light. In order for Sonic to escape a black hole, he would have to be faster than light itself, which is itself impossible since light has mass = 0 and sonic has mass > 0.

I don't know of any iteration of Sonic being faster than the speed of light, so Rosalina should have no problem winning that.

To add on; the speed of light cannot be passed by any physical entity. There is a theory that if an object were to go faster, it would actually begin to go backwards in time.

If sonic really escaped a black hole, he would have been moving backwards in time.

These do not tell the degree of each kind, though.

So Ness can resurrect people. Would this mean damage sustained would still be present, such as a gaping hole through the abdomen?

The hole would most likely be gone, as there would have been no point in reviving them if they will bleed out again.

How do we know this would include broken bones and internal bleeding?

If it can bring people back to life, and stop mortal wounds, I guarantee it can fix broken bones and internal bleeding.

As another example, nessokman pointed out that Pit can never run out of arrows, but realistically he'd have to expend some kind of energy to fire them.

Pit doesn't use any of his strength or energy to fire those arrows. The only way he uses his energy is when he moves.pit uses dashes to add power to his shots. If he dashes forward while shooting a charged shot, it adds that momentum and makes it even stronger.

Pit could be getting this ammo from Palutena.

Pit's signature bow was made by palutena, so it could be that as you pull the string back, it bends and focuses the light and then shoots it.

That wouldn't explain power supplies in weapons like the upper dash arm or the orbitars.

The only weapon in uprising that has it's power supply mentioned is the "Palm" category. They feed off Pit's life force. They talked like that palms are the only weapon that gets its power that way though.[/quote]

 

[Crystanium]

Oh, I know the player doesn't control it, I just wanted to know what the speed was. But I've realized now that it's probably not consistant throughout the game. I'll have to go watch some gameplay myself some time.

Consistency can be tricky. A character could be running at one speed, but at another time he or she may move faster or slower than before. If Sonic the Hedgehog ran at the speed of sound (768 mi/h) in one instance and then ran five times the speed of sound (3,840 mi/h), this wouldn't be inconsistent. Nor would it be if Sonic ran Mach 5 in one instance and then Mach 1 in another. Some things can be outliers if this is not within the character's ability, such as Batman defeating Darkseid with his own strength.

Some things can be called out as inconsistent, however. I'll take Lunar Sanctum as an example. If Pit isn't traveling supersonic, why not when it'd be faster to get to the Lunar Sanctum? My distance I assumed, however, is really the thing to be called into question. I timed the flight and I can get similar or exact numbers each time. If only I could find an image to compare the Lunar Sanctum at Pit's distance.

You don't think it's ridiculous for characters to have to be labeled as "enemy", "boss", or "NPC" to determine whether a Light Arrow would one-shot them? I think you may have misread what I said. I never said anything about light vs dark. That said, the Master Sword doesn't work on Ganondorf just because of light elements, though that would certainly help. It works because it's specifically crafted to counter the effects of the Triforce. Also, the Light Arrows work well on basically everything, not just dark foes, as I stated in a previous post. This includes Link, as seen at the end of Wind Waker if you let one hit you.

I wasn't saying that, either. I understood what you said to mean that things like vulnerability to light weapons is a ridiculous mechanic, as if it only belonged in game mechanics and not outside of it. Clearly, that wasn't the case. I know light arrows work on everything and not just dark foes, but it would be my understanding that light arrows do not work as effectively on foes who aren't inherently dark in the same way the light beam doesn't work as effectively on creatures on Aether. That's all I meant.

As for the rest of that, I'd rather not try to discuss regeneration from nothing, as it obviously just wouldn't work. But a more sensible take on extreme healing would be something like with Ridley, who has to eat for it to work. Marvel just kind of doesn't care about making any sense.

That's a given. Animals require food to at least regenerate cells.

It was about the Light Arrows specifically, yes. My theory is that they'd be more powerful, but much more exhausting.

Light arrows do seem to have more of a kick to them, I agree.

 

[Rabbattack]

Rosalina's control over galaxies and space would make her the strongest. No amount of weapons or magic is going to help you resist or escape a supermassive black hole. Just sayin'.

Is anyone listening? Rosalina does not control galaxies and space, she owns a luma orphanage. She does not have the power to create black holes, she is only able to neutralize them. She can stop black holes, but she needs to use her entire army, or in this case her family. The lumas are her children and she is not the kind of person to sacrifice them for pathetic reasons. Rosalina is only allowed to bring ONE luma to fight because the character mentioned is just made up of two entities: Rosalina and ONE luma. We cannot add more people or creatures to a character because they aren't characters in smash. We can't have the Ice Climbers bring their cousin Carl into a fight and we can't have Bowser bring his entire army onto the field. Rosalina cannot have an entire army.

"Yellow Lumas transform into Sling Stars and Launch Stars (and possibly Power Stars) and are the most common variety. Red Lumas guard Red Stars. Green Lumas are the guardians of the Trial Galaxies and transform into green Launch Stars and Green Power Stars. Blue Lumas transform into Pull Stars. Pink Lumas transform into pink Launch Stars to get to hungry Luma galaxies. Lumalee, who is a large, light-blue Luma, hosts the Luma Shop. There is also another type of Luma that is pink, known as the Hungry Luma. The last type of Luma is the Lumacomète, which has the ability to move Prankster Comets."

I'm pretty lumas don't transform into black holes. She can only use red, green, blue, and yellow lumas and none of these are deadly enough to be a threat, even if she could kill with these, she wouldn't because they are her family. Rosalina only sacrificed her lumas to save the universe from destruction.

You also have to take into account the characters personality because it could mean a difference between sacrificing a partner for a win or losing to protect a partner.

Rosalina can also use Mario's power-ups because she was in Mario Kart and 3D world, other than that she is has skill equal to the protagonists and antagonists of the Mario, Yoshi, Wario, and DK series.

ROSALINA CANNOT BRING HER ENTIRE ARMY AS THEY ARE NOT PART OF THE CHARACTER.

 

[Kamiko]

To add on; the speed of light cannot be passed by any physical entity. There is a theory that if an object were to go faster, it would actually begin to go backwards in time.

If sonic really escaped a black hole, he would have been moving backwards in time.

Time is a man-made way of understanding and discussing events, it doesn't have a recording of everything that's ever happened. I don't see why you're seriously bringing up the idea of time travel.

Pit doesn't use any of his strength or energy to fire those arrows. The only way he uses his energy is when he moves.pit uses dashes to add power to his shots. If he dashes forward while shooting a charged shot, it adds that momentum and makes it even stronger.

All of that sounds like it's taken from the way the game works, like Samus' Sense Move instant charging in Other M. Is there an official statement from Sakurai saying that Pit is somehow an infinite sourse of energy?

Pit's signature bow was made by palutena, so it could be that as you pull the string back, it bends and focuses the light and then shoots it.

THAT could actually work, but it would create some form of resistance, forcing Pit to rely on physical strength as though it was a normal bow. I actually kind of like that concept, it's like the opposite of Psyshock.

Consistency can be tricky. A character could be running at one speed, but at another time he or she may move faster or slower than before. If Sonic the Hedgehog ran at the speed of sound (768 mi/h) in one instance and then ran five times the speed of sound (3,840 mi/h), this wouldn't be inconsistent. Nor would it be if Sonic ran Mach 5 in one instance and then Mach 1 in another. Some things can be outliers if this is not within the character's ability, such as Batman defeating Darkseid with his own strength.

Some things can be called out as inconsistent, however. I'll take Lunar Sanctum as an example. If Pit isn't traveling supersonic, why not when it'd be faster to get to the Lunar Sanctum? My distance I assumed, however, is really the thing to be called into question. I timed the flight and I can get similar or exact numbers each time. If only I could find an image to compare the Lunar Sanctum at Pit's distance.

If you mean to say that a character only doing something once doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't within their power the whole time, then yes, I agree. But depending on how the situation is presented, it may just be something that the developer(s) did to make things easier for the player. I don't know how much you've followed the Zelda fandom, but one of the biggest complaints of The Wind Waker was its sailing speed. Many people found sailing to be slow and tedious, but that's how it really is. It was later revealed that the speed was actually limited to allow the game to load the surrounding areas, rather than to be realistic.

. . . . . . . .

Aaaaaaaaand I just went and watched the Lunar Sanctum part myself. It looks VERY close to me. What do you use to determine the distance? I noticed that it's much bigger once you get inside, an example of the inconsistancies done for the sake of gameplay that I keep bringing up. Tvtropes' "Rule of Fun" page explains this in greter detail: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFun

It's Assasin's Creed example about distance between cities is particularly relevant. Also, is there a reason given for why Pit can't fly once inside?

I wasn't saying that, either. I understood what you said to mean that things like vulnerability to light weapons is a ridiculous mechanic, as if it only belonged in game mechanics and not outside of it. Clearly, that wasn't the case. I know light arrows work on everything and not just dark foes, but it would be my understanding that light arrows do not work as effectively on foes who aren't inherently dark in the same way the light beam doesn't work as effectively on creatures on Aether. That's all I meant.

Ok, yeah, I think we're on the same page about that now. I agree with the idea of all of that, but I think it would be better to look at more like this: Light Arrows are powerful in general, but are stronger against Dark-based targets and weaker against Light-based targets. At least that's how it seems like they would function to me.

 

[Rabbattack]

Pacman has the power to eat souls. I think he should win.

 

[Crystanium]

If you mean to say that a character only doing something once doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't within their power the whole time, then yes, I agree. But depending on how the situation is presented, it may just be something that the developer(s) did to make things easier for the player. I don't know how much you've followed the Zelda fandom, but one of the biggest complaints of The Wind Waker was its sailing speed. Many people found sailing to be slow and tedious, but that's how it really is. It was later revealed that the speed was actually limited to allow the game to load the surrounding areas, rather than to be realistic.

You could say the same of Samus in Metroid Prime 1 and 2 where she starts with upgrades at the beginning, but then loses them. There was Castlevania: Symphony of the Night before that where Alucard is stripped of his power. I suppose you'd call that trope "a taste of power". It didn't happen in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption because the idea wasn't fresh anymore. (TV Tropes - A Taste of Power)

Aaaaaaaaand I just went and watched the Lunar Sanctum part myself. It looks VERY close to me. What do you use to determine the distance?

I guessed, which is why I said my guess could be put into question, but I'll come up with consistent time on the stopwatch. An object of that size would require it to be far, since smaller objects are more difficult to see compared to larger objects. Look at the Sun or Moon, for example. The Lunar Sanctum and the Moon are the same size when compared at the distance Pit observes them. For now, I have no way to determine the size and distance of an object.

I noticed that it's much bigger once you get inside,

It's already very large to begin with.

Also, is there a reason given for why Pit can't fly once inside?

Pit can only use the power of flight for five minutes before his wings burn up. This is aided by any god, as even the goddess Viridi could grant Pit the power of flight. With the Sacred Treasures, the Wings of Pegasus gives Pit indefinite flight with no aid of a god or goddess.

 

[Mechonis]

Rosalina's control over galaxies and space would make her the strongest. No amount of weapons or magic is going to help you resist or escape a supermassive black hole. Just sayin'.

Shulk would like to have a word with you....

UHG, want him confirmed already so I can discuss Shulk... rofl.

 

[Kamiko]

You could say the same of Samus in Metroid Prime 1 and 2 where she starts with upgrades at the beginning, but then loses them. There was Castlevania: Symphony of the Night before that where Alucard is stripped of his power. I suppose you'd call that trope "a taste of power". It didn't happen in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption because the idea wasn't fresh anymore. (TV Tropes - A Taste of Power)

I'm not really sure how that relates to what I said, but yeah that did happen. Then Other M tried to give a more realistic reason for it and everyone complained about how lame it was.

I guessed, which is why I said my guess could be put into question, but I'll come up with consistent time on the stopwatch. An object of that size would require it to be far, since smaller objects are more difficult to see compared to larger objects. Look at the Sun or Moon, for example. The Lunar Sanctum and the Moon are the same size when compared at the distance Pit observes them. For now, I have no way to determine the size and distance of an object.

It's already very large to begin with.

Maybe it's big by your standards, but it's clearly not anywhere near as big as the moon, unless that moon isn't the same one we have. If you can't tell from a distance, then pay attention to its curvature when Pit's flying near it or running on it. OR you can just turn the 3D slider up. That'll tell everything you need to know. Uprising doesn't disable that, does it?

I also just went and watched the game's beginning, and it's pretty obvious that the whole world isn't to scale during flight.

Pit can only use the power of flight for five minutes before his wings burn up. This is aided by any god, as even the goddess Viridi could grant Pit the power of flight. With the Sacred Treasures, the Wings of Pegasus gives Pit indefinite flight with no aid of a god or goddess.

Gotcha.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Didn't Ness effectively defeat god?

I don't think anyone can match that in terms of canonical power.

 

[Rabbattack]

What? His def and s.def are both base 90. That's not godly, but it's still pretty good. And they only get better in mega form. I still insist that we at least consider all sources for these characters and Mewtwo can acces his mega formes at will. That means Mewtwo becomes stronger than the creator of the universe who personally molded the embodiments of space and time. Mewtwo can defeat that. When put up against that scale, what hope does Palutena have? Yes, she's a goddess, but but a creation goddess. Mewtwo is raw, primal psychic energy. That's pretty hard to stop.

Also, with moves like barrier, recover, and light screen he can take a lot of damage. Even without the anime that still gives him a lot of staying power.

Edit: really, the only force I see as a threat to Mewtwo is Ganondorf's magic.

Just putting this out there again. Perfect EV's should not be used for wild pokemon, but can be and should be used for captured ones. Mewtwo cannot mega evolve without a trainer, so megas are useless. Pokemon Trainer cannot mega evolve his pokemon either becaus in brawl and the gen one, neither Red or Pokemon Trainer got any mega stones. Charizard also can't mega evolve.

Also, you shouldn't have a level 100 Jigglypuff beat a level 1 Mewtwo.

Levels, EV's, IV's, and natures should be used, but not to the level where they make matches completely illogical or unrealistic. Levels should not be as much of a deciding factor as values or natures.

You and other people should also stop exaggerating Mewtwos abilities and who he wins against. Other pokemon don't have to be creation beings in order to achieve power as great as Mewtwos. Mewtwo may be one of the most powerful, but with enough training, captured pokemon could take him down.

Pokemon Trainer with a Mewtwo could beat wild Mewtwo, but the question is, will he have enough time to send him out. Some pokemon like to take on challenges and will let the trainers prove themselves before delivering the fatal blow.

 

[nessokman]

Time is a man-made way of understanding and discussing events, it doesn't have a recording of everything that's ever happened. I don't see why you're seriously bringing up the idea of time travel.

time is the way we measure between certain events, and it lines up with Einstein's theories on space and time, as well as current scientific theories. Even the famous astrophysicist and author Neil deGrasse Tyson said it himself. Moving faster than the speed of light would theoretically make you begin going backwards in time.

sonic outran a black hole, meaning he would have had to been going faster than light to do it. That is why you don't trust in game details.

Is there an official statement from Sakurai saying that Pit is somehow an infinite sourse of energy?

No, but like I said, the only weapons that have had their energy sources mentioned are palms.palms are attached to Pit's arm and feed off of his life force.

THAT could actually work, but it would create some form of resistance, forcing Pit to rely on physical strength as though it was a normal bow. I actually kind of like that concept, it's like the opposite of Psyshock.

however you seem to overestimate the amount of strength needed to do so. Pit fires these weapons nonstop at near rapid fire rates. The bow is crafted by the goddess, it is probably infused with her power, meaning it would probably be near effortless.

Also, is there a reason given for why Pit can't fly once inside?

Pit can't fly on his own, It's a really sensetive subject with him. When hades, god of the underworld, asked why he can't fly to tease/annoy him, Palutena said his wings won't work right.

Pit relies on palutena and viridi to give him his flight, hence why his wings glow. The power of flight only works for 5 minutes at a time, after that his wings will burn up and he will fall.

If he has the wings of Pegasus he can fly infinitely, but hades ruined them when he fought pit for the first time.

Didn't Ness effectively defeat god?

I don't think anyone can match that in terms of canonical power.

No, he defeated his nightmare in magicant.

Giygas was an alien sen on a mission to destroy earth after his adoptive human parents(ninten's great grandparents) learned the secrets to PSI and went back to earth earth.

Giygas went to earth on orders from his fellow aliens to eliminate the earth to prevent the spread of PSI. Giygas went to earth, and was defeated by hearing his adoptive mother's song that she used to sing him.

Giygas came back in earthbound, this time with a much more sinister plot. He put himself into the "devil's machine", which magnified his powers and abilities.

During the fight, Porkey, ness' ex-neighbor who had joined giygas turned off the devil's machine. Giygas' body had been completely destroyed, he became the embodiment of pure evil.

The fight ensued in a dimension surrounded by giygas' evil, technically ness didn't do jack crap (outside if beating Porkey) because it was Paula who beat him by praying for their friends to support them.