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Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

Shiliski

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By that logic, Link should never have been able to throw those heavy obelisks since all he could do was lift them.
The game doesn't need to state every single detail, if its lettting you throw heavy obelisks 30 yards away, its safe to say that it enhanced his strength period.

To argue otherwise is just being obtuse for the sake of being in denial.
Except that the gauntlets don't increase Link's damage dealt per swing. Only higher grades of sword have ever increased his damage.

The gauntlets would help with throws, maybe, but not raw damage.

I hate to get nerdy on you guys, but I'll elaborate since I'm bored. (Don't hate me for this!)

A black hole is an object with such mass that even light cannot escape its gravitational pull. Nothing in the known universe travels faster than the speed of light. Even if Sonic travels faster than the speed of sound, that is nowhere near as fast as the speed of light. In order for Sonic to escape a black hole, he would have to be faster than light itself, which is itself impossible since light has mass = 0 and sonic has mass > 0.

I don't know of any iteration of Sonic being faster than the speed of light, so Rosalina should have no problem winning that.
In Sonic CD, Sonic's figure-eight dash is said to go literally faster than light, which is apparently useful for time travel, since time travel is a mechanic in that game. So yes, Sonic can canonically go faster than light, even without his Super form, but since this doesn't appear in later games I think we can also assume that he can only do that on Little Planet, which is the location of the story of Sonic CD and which never appears again.

Yeah I know, it's BS, but I kinda doubt that real world physics carry a whole lot of weight in a world where holding a single ring makes one immortal.
 
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Groose

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I don't know of any iteration of Sonic being faster than the speed of light, so Rosalina should have no problem winning that.
Archie Sonic to the rescue! He can break the speed of light without even having to go into his super form. It's possible that a fight between Archie Sonic and Rosalina would end before she could even see him coming. After all, he can travel over 180,000 miles in a single second. For reference, that's almost eight trips around the earth in a single second.

[collapse=Proof]


and


[/collapse]
 
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Crystanium

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Maybe it's big by your standards, but it's clearly not anywhere near as big as the moon, unless that moon isn't the same one we have.
For all we know, it isn't the same moon, since there are more moons in the Universe than our own, which is only 27% smaller than Earth in diameter. What we can know is that this is similar to the Death Star in Star Wars and they have dimensions for it, but even if I assumed the numbers for Star Wars, it wouldn't tell me how far Pit was.

If you can't tell from a distance, then pay attention to its curvature when Pit's flying near it or running on it. OR you can just turn the 3D slider up. That'll tell everything you need to know. Uprising doesn't disable that, does it?
I don't use the 3D. (Thank -insert god of choice here- for the 2DS.) I still don't know what that'll tell me. You can't find distance if you don't have speed and time and all I can say is that we only have time.
 

Shiliski

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Realistically, depth perception doesn't help you very much once you get past a certain distance, and IIRC it's a pretty short distance (like about 100 meters). In order to judge the distance of something at extreme lengths, you'd have to know something about how big an object is "supposed" to be, as well as what objects are in front of it, and how close it is to a horizon (but the horizon thing only works if the object is on the ground and not floating), and so on.

Since we don't know how big the Lunar Sanctum is supposed to be, and since the first time we see it it's pretty far away, and since the thing is floating in the sky, I doubt that the 3-d vision would help in accurately gauging its distance...

... unless it was actually pretty small, which it really isn't. Otherwise, maybe Pit's eyes have better depth perception than the average human's (not hard to believe) and somehow that was represented in Uprising's 3d effects (harder to believe).

There's a point right at the beginning where Pit sees the whole Lunar Sanctum at once. If we knew what his distance to the Sanctum was at that point, we could use trig to solve for how big it is, but we don't really have that.


Another way is to note the curvature of the Sanctum when Pit flies close, and then use that curvature and the known distance to extrapolate how big it is. It wouldn't be perfectly accurate since we're eye-balling a lot of stuff, but it could get us in the ball park. From that we could get Pit's flight distance and therefore his speed.
 

Crystanium

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Except that the gauntlets don't increase Link's damage dealt per swing. Only higher grades of sword have ever increased his damage.
That's true, at least in-game. Force requires mass and acceleration. If you don't have mass, but you have acceleration, you lack force. The same is true if you have mass, but lack acceleration. (F = ma) While it's true that Link does not have any added mass (well, except the gauntlets he's acquired), the ability to lift heavier objects would make wielding a weapon of smaller mass easier to swing, and if I dare say, faster.

Does this mean Link should be delivering more damage? I'd say yes, but there's a possibility game mechanics are interfering. Or Link just swings with the same speed as he did before acquiring the gauntlets. Either way, I'd say Link is better off throwing his arrows and punching his opponents, if not grabbing them and slamming them into the ground or wall, or even tearing them apart.

Another way is to note the curvature of the Sanctum when Pit flies close, and then use that curvature and the known distance to extrapolate how big it is. It wouldn't be perfectly accurate since we're eye-balling a lot of stuff, but it could get us in the ball park. From that we could get Pit's flight distance and therefore his speed.
Just like how Eratosthenes did it?
 

Shiliski

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That's true, at least in-game. Force requires mass and acceleration. If you don't have mass, but you have acceleration, you lack force. The same is true if you have mass, but lack acceleration. (F = ma) While it's true that Link does not have any added mass (well, except the gauntlets he's acquired), the ability to lift heavier objects would make wielding a weapon of smaller mass easier to swing, and if I dare say, faster.

Does this mean Link should be delivering more damage? I'd say yes, but there's a possibility game mechanics are interfering. Or Link just swings with the same speed as he did before acquiring the gauntlets. Either way, I'd say Link is better off throwing his arrows and punching his opponents, if not grabbing them and slamming them into the ground or wall, or even tearing them apart.
Hmm. I think this question comes down to "do arbitrary game physics trump RL physics, or the other way around?". Link may be swinging with less force than he actually could in order to not break the sword he's using, or it may only work for objects that are lifted above Link's head. The gauntlets might also have some magical property that causes them to have more Force when Link tries to lift heavier objects, but lower amounts of Force when dealing with smaller objects. After all, being able to throw giant black pillars hasn't caused him to, for example, throw bombs farther.

Though, logically speaking, it should.


Just like how Eratosthenes did it?
Sure. Whatever works.
 

Crystanium

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Hmm. I think this question comes down to "do arbitrary game physics trump RL physics, or the other way around?". Link may be swinging with less force than he actually could in order to not break the sword he's using, or it may only work for objects that are lifted above Link's head. The gauntlets might also have some magical property that causes them to have more Force when Link tries to lift heavier objects, but lower amounts of Force when dealing with smaller objects. After all, being able to throw giant black pillars hasn't caused him to, for example, throw bombs farther.

Though, logically speaking, it should.
I personally don't like using real-world physics for video games, but it seems to be what we can all go by, since there doesn't seem to be any other reasonable method. I've pointed out various issues using our physics in video games at this place called FactPileTopia. That Link does not throw bombs faster is, indeed, an issue. It's curious as to why, but the only thing I can fall back on is game mechanics.

Make no mistake that I don't think things should be considered a game mechanic without a reasonable explanation. As for the Master Sword possibly breaking, I don't know. Though in the Zeldaverse, gold, silver, iron, and steel are known metals, the Master Sword is not made of common materials, so we can't find out how durable the sword is. The same can be said with the Hylian Shield, at least in Skyward Sword. Any game after that seems to only be replicas made possibly out of steel.

Sure. Whatever works.
My only problem is I don't know how to do that. I could try to learn, but that might be for another time.
 

ShadowLink84

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Except that the gauntlets don't increase Link's damage dealt per swing. Only higher grades of sword have ever increased his damage.

The gauntlets would help with throws, maybe, but not raw damage.
That is because it is a game design limitation.
Not because it is something that could not happen.
If Link is able to throw massive obelisks several hundred feet away, this suggests that he would be able to swing harder.
Last I saw, when you swing harder, you're able to cause more damage because there is more force behind it.

By your logic, a man who can lift 1000 lbs of weight cannot throw a punch that is any stronger than a man who lifts 130lbs of weight.
We know this is not true.

In Sonic CD, Sonic's figure-eight dash is said to go literally faster than light,
I have the game manual in my hands...I am not seeing this anywhere. Can you point it out?

but since this doesn't appear in later games I think we can also assume that he can only do that on Little Planet, which is the location of the story of Sonic CD and which never appears again.
Um...no you can't.
That's ignoring the fact he does his figure 8 dash throughout the entire intro which isn't on the planet.
 

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Palutena, mainly because she is a goddess...
On the topic of Sonic, the only time he has ever broken the sound, or even light barrier, is in the comics. according to *cough* Game Theory *cough*, the faster he can go is 80 MPH. Though I disagree. Slopes can increase his speed by around x3.5 in the genesis originals. In Spin Ball form, it increases by 1.5x. This means that in base form, he can run at 320 MPH. And then add we the x1000 boost of Super Sonic.
320,000 MPH.
 

IvanQuote

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I'm just going to assume Link's lifting gauntlets are magical made to lift and support an object of most any weight, not magnify his strength. Otherwise there would be other problems to consider. (It's also not a matter of stronger bone structure because he takes falling damage.)
 
D

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The strongest character? Wario.


Wario can lift this thing up and toss it clear across the room. Without using power-ups (so no, Fighter Kirby's Megaton Punch doesn't count).

Though DK has been shown to punch the moon down, so that may be a tough call.

These 39 pages of arguments? They're about who's the most powerful, not who's the strongest like the title asks.
[/thread]
 
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IvanQuote

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Quite sure that they're putting strength into Link's arms since it suggests that its directly augmenting his arm strength.
I stand corrected. Also on an unrelated note, referring to the end of Sonic Colors, that thing Sonic is running away from at the end (futilely) is never explicitly referred to as a black hole. For all we know, it could be something else entirely. (This is a BS excuse sure, but I would think Eggman would have undergone spaghettification if this were as strong as a black hole.)
 

Shiliski

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I have the game manual in my hands...I am not seeing this anywhere. Can you point it out?
Huh? I was pretty sure... let me check.

...

Well, gee. I can't find it either. Now I'm wondering where I saw that... @_@ Are you looking at the original manual? It's been re-released a few times, and I can't find one of mine.

Either way, assuming I'm not grossly misremembering, I don't think any other game actually mentions Sonic going faster than light.

On the topic of Sonic, the only time he has ever broken the sound, or even light barrier, is in the comics. according to *cough* Game Theory *cough*, the faster he can go is 80 MPH. Though I disagree. Slopes can increase his speed by around x3.5 in the genesis originals. In Spin Ball form, it increases by 1.5x. This means that in base form, he can run at 320 MPH. And then add we the x1000 boost of Super Sonic.
320,000 MPH.
Game theory grossly ignores such things as "bullet time" and the fact that Sonic can outrun many, many projectiles that move far slower than they should. (With the notable exception of Shadow's game where he actually fires normal guns).

I stand corrected. Also on an unrelated note, referring to the end of Sonic Colors, that thing Sonic is running away from at the end (futilely) is never explicitly referred to as a black hole. For all we know, it could be something else entirely. (This is a BS excuse sure, but I would think Eggman would have undergone spaghettification if this were as strong as a black hole.)
I actually don't buy that being a black hole. First off, black holes wouldn't expand that fast unless they were taking in HUGE amounts of matter at once. Black holes are super dense, so the amount of volume going INTO the black hole would be way way more than the amount of size it'd actually gain. Sure, escaping the pull of a black hole after you've gotten close to the event horizon would require near-light speed, but under normal circumstances there's no way it would expand fast enough to catch the average person who was trying to walk away from it.

To put it into context, a black hole would have to eat something the size of Earth to even get 1G more acceleration. There's no way that eating a (relatively) little tower like that would give it the required mass to even be a threat. That said, I haven't played Colors so if it's getting mass from somewhere else then that would change things.

Therefore, it's not a black hole, or at least not a realistic one.
 
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IvanQuote

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Game theory grossly ignores such things as "bullet time" and the fact that Sonic can outrun many, many projectiles that move far slower than they should. (With the notable exception of Shadow's game where he actually fires normal guns).
Precisely. It's even used in classic and of Sonic:

Classic: Sonic 1 was originally faster, but the developers slowed it down a bit because it gave them motion sickness. If you don't count such a meta example, the Game Gear game Sonic Chaos gives you speed ratings as you pass the goal, always in hundreds of km/h (not sure if this is average in the stage or the speed at which you pass the goal, but either way it's a hard number)

Modern: In Unleashed (HD), like Sonic Chaos, it gives you speed ratings when you pass check points (which Matpat just so happened to ignore) which can lead to the conclusion that all the day time stages are slowed down to make them playable. Also, bullet time is literally used in the final battle of the non-HD port, making this theory viable.
 
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Crystanium

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That is because it is a game design limitation.
Not because it is something that could not happen.
If Link is able to throw massive obelisks several hundred feet away, this suggests that he would be able to swing harder.
Last I saw, when you swing harder, you're able to cause more damage because there is more force behind it.
It's not about swinging harder, it's about swinging faster. The Master Sword doesn't gain any mass. It could be a game limitation, or Link isn't swinging faster than he could. The fact Link doesn't throw bombs farther does support that this is a game limitation, though.

By your logic, a man who can lift 1000 lbs of weight cannot throw a punch that is any stronger than a man who lifts 130lbs of weight.
We know this is not true.
A man who can lift 1,000 lbs. would likely have more body mass, whereas a man who can lift only 130 lbs. would have less. More mass means it requires greater acceleration to move an object than something with less mass. However, as you will see below, something with less mass can produce the same amount of newtons if it's traveling faster. The average mass of a male, adult fist is 300 grams. Say the man with more mass has a hand of 400 g. and the smaller man has a hand of 250 g.

Large man
F = ma
F = (0.400 kg)(45 m/s)
F = 13.5 kg m/s

Small man
F = ma
F = (0.250 kg)(54 m/s)
F = 13.5 kg m/s

Palutena, mainly because she is a goddess...
That doesn't mean anything. I can make the same claim. Fierce Deity wins because he's a god.

On the topic of Sonic, the only time he has ever broken the sound, or even light barrier, is in the comics. according to *cough* Game Theory *cough*, the faster he can go is 80 MPH. Though I disagree. Slopes can increase his speed by around x3.5 in the genesis originals. In Spin Ball form, it increases by 1.5x. This means that in base form, he can run at 320 MPH. And then add we the x1000 boost of Super Sonic.
320,000 MPH.
Comics aren't the original source, so they're not worth considering.
 
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Kamiko

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current scientific theories.
Widely accepted theories are wrong all the time. This is science we're dealing with here, we need evidence, not just guesses. Like you said, time is a form of measurent. Just ike inches and meters, it's not an actual thing.

Of course it can be a thing in the world of fiction, but it doesn't have to abide by any particular theory if it doesn't want to.

sonic outran a black hole, meaning he would have had to been going faster than light to do it. That is why you don't trust in game details.
This I completely agree with though. That's been my main point this whole time.

No, but like I said, the only weapons that have had their energy sources mentioned are palms.palms are attached to Pit's arm and feed off of his life force.
Unless the game harms you for using them as some sort of balancing method, then I'd say the fact that a power source was mentioned at all implies that all the weapons would require energy from somewhere, and that the palm types just happen to feed off of something different than the rest. That's really the only logical conclusion.

however you seem to overestimate the amount of strength needed to do so. Pit fires these weapons nonstop at near rapid fire rates. The bow is crafted by the goddess, it is probably infused with her power, meaning it would probably be near effortless.
If Pit isn't using any of his own power to fire, then he'd either have to be receiving energy from an external source like Palutena at all times, or the bow would have to capable of drawing energy from the environment somehow, the latter of which would severly limit its rate of fire.

Pit can't fly on his own, It's a really sensetive subject with him. When hades, god of the underworld, asked why he can't fly to tease/annoy him, Palutena said his wings won't work right
Pit relies on palutena and viridi to give him his flight, hence why his wings glow. The power of flight only works for 5 minutes at a time, after that his wings will burn up and he will fall.
This supports my above point about the bow.


Except that the gauntlets don't increase Link's damage dealt per swing. Only higher grades of sword have ever increased his damage.
The gauntlets would help with throws, maybe, but not raw damage.
Once again, game mechanics. Throwing and swinging/hitting requre the same type of strength, so if they increase one, they increase the other. Because of the way a sword delivers its damage, hitting harder wouldn't always cause more harm, but Link's attacks would definitely swing faster and break through bone and armor more easily.


For all we know, it isn't the same moon, since there are more moons in the Universe than our own, which is only 27% smaller than Earth in diameter. What we can know is that this is similar to the Death Star in Star Wars and they have dimensions for it, but even if I assumed the numbers for Star Wars, it wouldn't tell me how far Pit was.
I don't know if it's intended to be Death Star sized, but in-game, it's clearly not, unless Pit's a giant now. If it was only seen from a distance, then it might be hard to tell, but Pit flies right up to it and can even touch it at some points. If you can't tell how big it is from up close, then I don't know what to tell you. But you can use its size to find a rough distance.

I don't use the 3D. (Thank -insert god of choice here- for the 2DS.) I still don't know what that'll tell me. You can't find distance if you don't have speed and time and all I can say is that we only have time.
You must not use both of your eyes very often. The whole point of having two is to find size and distance. Also, wasn't the whole point of finding the distance supposed to be to find the speed? Distance has to come first here if we want to do that.


Realistically, depth perception doesn't help you very much once you get past a certain distance, and IIRC it's a pretty short distance (like about 100 meters). In order to judge the distance of something at extreme lengths, you'd have to know something about how big an object is "supposed" to be, as well as what objects are in front of it, and how close it is to a horizon (but the horizon thing only works if the object is on the ground and not floating), and so on.

Since we don't know how big the Lunar Sanctum is supposed to be, and since the first time we see it it's pretty far away, and since the thing is floating in the sky, I doubt that the 3-d vision would help in accurately gauging its distance...

... unless it was actually pretty small, which it really isn't. Otherwise, maybe Pit's eyes have better depth perception than the average human's (not hard to believe) and somehow that was represented in Uprising's 3d effects (harder to believe).

There's a point right at the beginning where Pit sees the whole Lunar Sanctum at once. If we knew what his distance to the Sanctum was at that point, we could use trig to solve for how big it is, but we don't really have that.
The stereoscopic cameras in a 3DS game are generally MUCH farther apart then human eyes, which is likely part of the reason so many people can't deal with it. So that 100 meters would be greatly extended. Even if it didn't help from the distance the Lunar Sanctum is first seen at, it would when Pit got closer, which would then give us a good idea of what that original distance was.

Another way is to note the curvature of the Sanctum when Pit flies close, and then use that curvature and the known distance to extrapolate how big it is. It wouldn't be perfectly accurate since we're eye-balling a lot of stuff, but it could get us in the ball park. From that we could get Pit's flight distance and therefore his speed.
I was going to do something like this, but the size of the images I'd be working with would be way too big, and shrinking them down would lower the accuracy of the results.

HOWEVER, I've taken some screenshots of a playthrough to help us get an idea of its size.

Here is Pit on top of the largest of three craters inside an even larger one:
PitCrater.png

Here's an enemy next to the smaller craters inside the same larger crater:
EnemyCrater.png

And this is a view immedately after of that large crater from a distance, showing how it compares to the Lunar Sanctum as a whole:
LunarSanctumCrater.png

Hopefully this helps show that while it is indeed a large object, it's FAR from the size of something like the Death Star. I don't know what Pit's own size is supposed to be, but I'm sure we could use that with this to figure out the speed he travels at to reach it.


All that size, distance, and speed nonsense aside, if Pit's general flight path is controlled by someone else, how does that factor into these character matchups?

/essay
 
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IvanQuote

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Regarding the lunar sanctum, I think Arlon made it so that the size/distance ratio made it appear to be the same size as the moon (much smaller, yet much closer to Earth than the moon). This still would be useless even if we could calculate the size and distance though, as Pit starts out at an undetermined height above the ground, distance not being negligible due to the smaller scale.
 

Crystanium

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The crater with other craters would need to be at least several kilometers. I think the Collins crater is supposed to be the smallest and is 2.4 km. (1.49 mi.) in diameter. I'm just eyeing it. I'll estimate each hemisphere to be three of those craters and the center to be two, giving us 19.2 km. (11.93 mi.). In order to find the distance, I needed to come up with the angular diameter and my estimated diameter of the Lunar Sanctum.

I went with 50 degrees for the angular diameter, which gave me 20.59 km. (12.79 mi.) for the distance. The time it took for Pit to fly there was 31.360 seconds.

20.59 km. / 31.360 s = 0.69 km/s, or 2,478 km/h (1,539 mi/h), or Mach 2. So, even with this guess, I get close to the previous calculations that were also supersonic speeds. A coincidence or consistency?
 

nessokman

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Widely accepted theories are wrong all the time. This is science we're dealing with here, we need evidence, not just guesses. Like you said, time is a form of measurent. Just ike inches and meters, it's not an actual thing.
It lines up with all of our current knowledge of time space. Calculations lean in favor of it.


This I completely agree with though. That's been my main point this whole time.
Allow me to give you a quote from an article I read. (Didn't put it in quote tags because it would confuse everyone)
"If an object tries to travel 186,000 miles per second, its mass becomes infinite, and so does the energy required to move it. For this reason, no normal object can travel as fast or faster than the speed of light."

Sorry sonic, not possible......

Unless the game harms you for using them as some sort of balancing method, then I'd say the fact that a power source was mentioned at all implies that all the weapons would require energy from somewhere, and that the palm types just happen to feed off of something different than the rest. That's really the only logical conclusion.
You can NEVER make assumptions. Palms do feed off the life force of their wielder, but it never says anything about other weapons. All weapons were designed by the god of the forge, Dyntos.Palutena says that palms are different being the only one to do such a thing.

Also, palutena says that the "Arm" category, even though they are huge, don't cut down on Pit's agility.
If Pit isn't using any of his own power to fire, then he'd either have to be receiving energy from an external source like Palutena at all times, or the bow would have to capable of drawing energy from the environment somehow, the latter of which would severly limit its rate of fire.
You don't KNOW that, don't make assumptions...... We'll probably never really know for sure.Pit asks how the "Orbitar" weapon class can hover around his head, had palutena actually answered, we would probably have a better understanding of their power, but she ignored it.

Also, this-

I don't know if it's intended to be Death Star sized, but in-game, it's clearly not, unless Pit's a giant now. If it was only seen from a distance, then it might be hard to tell, but Pit flies right up to it and can even touch it at some points. If you can't tell how big it is from up close, then I don't know what to tell you. But you can use its size to find a rough distance.
It is death star size........It looks smaller because you are closer to pit and further away from it.


HOWEVER, I've taken some screenshots of a playthrough to help us get an idea of its size.

Here is Pit on top of the largest of three craters inside an even larger one:
View attachment 17073

Here's an enemy next to the smaller craters inside the same larger crater:
View attachment 17074

And this is a view immedately after of that large crater from a distance, showing how it compares to the Lunar Sanctum as a whole:
View attachment 17075

Hopefully this helps show that while it is indeed a large object, it's FAR from the size of something like the Death Star. I don't know what Pit's own size is supposed to be, but I'm sure we could use that with this to figure out the speed he travels at to reach it.
Those craters aren't on the surface of the sanctum though, they are in a chamber of it that is designed to look like the moon.I can tell you haven't played through it (Or beaten it all on 9.0 :p)

Those craters are INSIDE the sanctum, so of course they aren't going to be very big. There are massive chambers inside. Look at the parts where you use grind rails to get around the giant chamber. It goes as far as the eye can see, and even Pit mentiones how big it is on the inside.
 
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Pit can at least flap his wings in some way to gain additional height. He's not fully flying, but he could at least be in tha air for some time. In air battles Palutena or Viridi have Pit fly at increasingly far distance and altitudes, Pit probably could use his broken wings to...

Golden Gauntlets give Link more force in his swings. Creators have to balance the game for the player, so unless Nintendo makes it official, we should all let Link have his over powered blows.

Nothing in video games has a definite answer, so this thread is never going to go anywhere if we don't make lists. We need tons of lists in order to find the path to the divine solution, a solution that will save humanity and end suffering. The world depends on us. This solution could end world hunger, poverty, bring about world peace, and cure all mortal diseases. Lets work together for the greater good.

I'm going to say this again, unless we make a list of all the wins and losses of every character, including cut ones, we will never be able to find a definite answer. Arguing over a specific ability that only one character can use will not get anyone anywhere. Make a list in your own spare time and post it here, because nothing else seems to work.
 

IvanQuote

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Nothing in video games has a definite answer, so this thread is never going to go anywhere if we don't make lists. We need tons of lists in order to find the path to the divine solution, a solution that will save humanity and end suffering. The world depends on us. This solution could end world hunger, poverty, bring about world peace, and cure all mortal diseases. Lets work together for the greater good.

I'm going to say this again, unless we make a list of all the wins and losses of every character, including cut ones, we will never be able to find a definite answer. Arguing over a specific ability that only one character can use will not get anyone anywhere. Make a list in your own spare time and post it here, because nothing else seems to work.
Amen
 

Crystanium

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Sonic the Hedgehog - He's the fastest character, even if his ability to run at c is questionable. He can attain hypersonic speed, which at the low-end places him at Mach 5.

Samus Aran - Samus is the second fastest on the list, attaining supersonic speeds according to the Metroid Fusion and Zero Mission manuals. The low-end means she can run Mach 1.2. Not only that, but Samus' plasma beam and power bombs are sure to vaporize her opponents. She is also very durable and can restore her energy tanks by using Crystal Flash. While this makes her appear vulnerable to enemy attack, a power bomb needs to be used prior to this, thus at least ensuring some safety.

Mega Man - I don't know where to place Mega Man just yet. The standard rule seems to use the most recent incarnation. That would mean Mega Man 10. I'm not all too familiar with Mega Man, though. If anyone wants to correct this, feel free. For now, from the Mega Man Knowledge Base, Mega Man's source of energy is solar energy. So he might be kind of like Superman, but only in that regard.

Mega Man's body is made up of ceramic titanium, but such a thing doesn't exist. All I can do is go with a real-world alloy known as titanium carbide. It has a hardness of 9.5 on the Mohs scale, diamond being a 10 and naturally the hardest mineral. Its melting point is 3,160°C (5,720°F), which I suspect Samus' plasma beam and power bombs would be able to deal with. However, Mega Man has fought Heat Man, whose special weapon, Atomic Fire, can reach up to "12,000 degrees Celsius (21,632 degrees Fahrenheit) when charged."

The problem is that if Atomic Fire is what Heat Man first uses, it's rather useless for an attack. Sure, the heat would be enough to affect the vicinity, but even Heat Man isn't glowing with a blue flame, which one would expect to see at 12,000 centigrade.

Palutena - She has no showings, except with the example of Chaos Kin. Her true power is unknown, but by virtue of commanding Pit what to do, she's above Pit.

Pit - Even if I am incorrect about Pit's flight speed for the Lunar Sanctum, I've calculated a few times where Pit can reach supersonic speeds as well. Pit has a variety of other abilities as well.
 
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Sarki Soliloquy

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I'm going to say this again, unless we make a list of all the wins and losses of every character, including cut ones, we will never be able to find a definite answer. Arguing over a specific ability that only one character can use will not get anyone anywhere. Make a list in your own spare time and post it here, because nothing else seems to work.
I think establishing a resolute list of criteria when judging characters should be considered to make the lists be judged and debated more smoothly.
 

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I would just like to point out that in order to kill Game & Watch would require killing millions of tiny game consoles or 2-D people depending on how you look at it.
 

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I would just like to point out that in order to kill Game & Watch would require killing millions of tiny game consoles or 2-D people depending on how you look at it.
No. We are not bringing the real world into a fictional fight. This makes no sense.
 

Sarki Soliloquy

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What you got for dat list den?
You said how this thread ends up turning to arguing over certain character abilities rather than how they would affect matchups. Then when Character A vs. Character B would be decided, there would be an ability or counter brought up in Character B's favor and the it cycles into more debate.

One idea I had would be to limit the abilities of the character to their Smash Bros. incarnations, which also applies to equipment, skills, feats, etc. From there, use all canon material (anime & comics don't count) to support that. A problem with that though is that it wouldn't take everything from their game universes to determine the strongest overall.

What that really boils down to is that making lists won't be easy until we decide what each character can bring to the fight.
 
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Gameboi834

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No. We are not bringing the real world into a fictional fight. This makes no sense.
Then you look at it as millions of 2-D people: "none of the original Game & Watch games feature Mr. Game & Watch, instead featuring a variety of other usually nameless characters. Mr. Game & Watch himself is a compilation of all of these characters, first designed to function as a playable character in Super Smash Bros. Melee. His appearance seems to be based on the generic people in Fire and Parachute."

Mr. Game & Watch has no canonical appearance in this case.
 

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Then you look at it as millions of 2-D people: "none of the original Game & Watch games feature Mr. Game & Watch, instead featuring a variety of other usually nameless characters. Mr. Game & Watch himself is a compilation of all of these characters, first designed to function as a playable character in Super Smash Bros. Melee. His appearance seems to be based on the generic people in Fire and Parachute."

Mr. Game & Watch has no canonical appearance in this case.
If a character has no canonical appearance outside of smash... THEN SMASH IS HIS CANON.
 

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Then you look at it as millions of 2-D people: "none of the original Game & Watch games feature Mr. Game & Watch, instead featuring a variety of other usually nameless characters. Mr. Game & Watch himself is a compilation of all of these characters, first designed to function as a playable character in Super Smash Bros. Melee. His appearance seems to be based on the generic people in Fire and Parachute."

Mr. Game & Watch has no canonical appearance in this case.
Technically there is neither evidence proving nor disproving that (most of) the games aren't centered around one guy. On the previous page, I made a list of a bunch of his games, along with info that can be gathered.


While there has been an incorrect assumption that Mr. G&W is some sort of bizarre Eldrich Abomination with no sense of morality, I don't believe his canon abilities have been discussed officially here. Imma run through his games right now:

Ball/Mario the Juggler- He can juggle? Unless he throws the balls he juggles, this is useless.
Flagman- Unless the battle turns into "Simon Says," also useless. (I doubt whacking people with a flag would be useful either.)
Vermin- He has hammers and could probably dual-wield them. Better.
Fire- Depending on who it is, this tells us that he can use a trampoline with assistance, or he can't survive a 3 story fall. Not good.
Judge- See Vermin
Manhole- He can support someone his size + a platform with a single hand/foot, even in an awkward position. This shows he has moderate-high endurance and comparatively moderate strength.
Helmet- He has one, but it cannot protect him from a force made by a falling tool of unknown speed.
Lion- Um, he can hit people with a chair?
Parachute- Unless he is falling from an enormous height, this would not be used. Even if he were, he'd be a sitting duck floating down.
Octopus- He can Scuba and get crushed by the force of a giant octopus?
Popeye- Couldn't really tell what was going on. Does this even count as Mr. Game & Watch?
Chef- Either he lives on a planet of variable gravity, or he has good enough reflexes to micromanage and juggle 3-4 pieces of food at once.
Micky Mouse/Egg- Same problem as Popeye, not that catching eggs in a bag would help any.
Turtle Bridge- Balance enough to cross a bridge of (presumable) slippery turtle shells over a body of water? Also, unless the lake is a colloid of solid in liquid, he is rather light to not submerge on top of the turtles.
Fire Attack- Ahh, here we go. Depending on who it is, he has the hammer again which can knock out/kill people his size with a conk on the head and can break torches flung from the air (reflexes). The other way around, he may have a throwing arm with the torches (perspective is a bit off). Also torches are much more useful than flags.
Snoopy Tennis- Do I have to say it? (See Popeye)
Oil Panic- Could be deadly with a torch, but I can't see him lugging around a barrel of oil to battle.
Donkey Kong- See Popeye, though having Mario's early jumping abilities is nothing to sneeze at give his repertoire.
Micky and Donald- Sigh... See Popeye. A water hose would be very impractical, especially with only one person.
Greenhouse- The pesticides are probably not the best to be inhaled, but I doubt they would be that deadly on their own. Could serve to temporarily throw off attacking rhythm to lead up to a hammer hit or a deadly torch throw.
Donkey Kong II- See the first one. Couldn't tell what was going on.
Mario Bros.- See Popeye (sensing a pattern here.) I doubt a block of cement would help.
RAIN SHOWER!- Has the speed and reflexes to adjust his clotheslines to keep his clothes dry FROM A SINGLE DROP OF RAIN IN THE MIDDLE OF A STORM! And I thought Samus had good reflexes. Too tired to crunch numbers, but apparently rain falls at an average of 21 feet/sec with a diameter of 2 mm. The number of drops in the storm probably total to somewhere in the billions. Wrap your head around THAT!
Lifeboat- Move along citizens. Nothing to see here.
Pinball/Blackjack- ...
Squish- What in the world did I just look at?
Bombsweeper- May go into See Popeye territory. Bomb defusing wouldn't be exactly lucrative unless he puts his Rain Shower reflexes to use and defuse a missile or something mid flight.
Safebuster- Catching stuff (bombs). Eh...
Gold Cliff- He can platform. Woo...
Zelda- I wish, but See Popeye. Having the Triforce, Sword Beam, and a Tomohawk is rather attractive though.

I'll bother with the rest maybe later. Taking a quick look ahead, many of them seem to be licensed and may not count.
 

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Link
I'm just going to say we're using Link from Skyward Sword, since it seems that's supposed to be the incarnation for SSB4. I think the only other thing for this incarnation is that Link has the Gale Boomerang in SSB4, but whatever. So, Link is capable of moving tree trunks. I'll assume Link is 170 cm. tall (5 ft. 7 in.). Eyeing the trunk, it is two Links long and one Link wide. The trunk is also the shape of a cylinder, so I'll be using a cylindrical formula to find the volume.

V = pi r^2 h
V = pi (85 cm)^2 (340 cm.)
V = pi (7,225 cm.)(340 cm.)
V = pi (2,456,500 cm.)
V = 7,717,322.3535433270902835 cm^3

We don't know what type of wood this is, so that's the only problem. Fortunately, we can find different types of wood densities. I suppose the best thing to try is looking for what trees resemble the ones in the game. I'd say perhaps an oak tree, which has the density of 0.75 g/cm^3.

7,717,322 cm^3 * 0.75 g/cm^3 = 5,787,992 g.

5,787,992 / 1,000 = 5,788 kg.

5,788 kg. / 1,000 = 5.79 metric tons.

I cannot find a video where Link lifts up a rock. It's annoying me. Images aren't showing up, either. I could have sworn I calculated this before.
 

Sarki Soliloquy

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Starts @ 3:44.

About Link, my proposed criteria will be arduous against multicarnate characters. Especially since SSB4's Link seems to be an amalgamation of several Links at best (TP Link the most?) This hurts the Zelda cast especially considering they've been in like 3-4 games now, all in different forms.

I'm going to switch to my Wii U Internet Browser now. I'll try to make an example to prototype potential matchup guidelines. Just warning you that I won't have the energy to type up huge posts like this. <,>
 

Crystanium

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Starts @ 3:44.

About Link, my proposed criteria will be arduous against multicarnate characters. Especially since SSB4's Link seems to be an amalgamation of several Links at best (TP Link the most?) This hurts the Zelda cast especially considering they've been in like 3-4 games now, all in different forms.

I'm going to switch to my Wii U Internet Browser now. I'll try to make an example to prototype potential matchup guidelines. Just warning you that I won't have the energy to type up huge posts like this. <,>
I already calculated that to be 188 tons. I'm also against composite forms, since they're not canon.
 

IvanQuote

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Quick question regarding the Franklin Badge: since it reflects lightning (as well as whatever PK Beam Gamma is) would that mean it reflects plasma as well? If so, Ness and Lucas would have a bit of an advantage against Samus, Mega Man, and Plasma Kirby.
 
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