Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[josh bones]

Who ever wants to do the task can do it in their spare time.

Canonically means we have to use games other than smash if available. Characters that really only have an appearance in smash have to use smash as their canon.

There have been 54 characters in smash so far, including both incarnations of adult Link and Zelda. Excluding Squirtle and Ivysaur because they are part of Pokemon Trainer.

How about we draft a list of wins and losses for one character every week and compare/contrast them between members. This way we can just go slowly and have a peaceful time.

I can do it, just need somebody to take care of charting the fights o do

 

[Gameboi834]

I made this mock-up Tier List is someone wants to finish it. It's in no particular order and makes a few assumptions:

I) Any character represents in different forms (Samus and Zamus, Mario and Dr. Mario, etc.) are treated as one and are assumed to possess the same attributes/strengths

a. Link, Toon Link, and Young Link are treated as TP, WW/PH, and OoT/MM Link, respectively​

II) The Pokemon Trainer has access to only Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivysaur
III) Each character has access to anything they can equip in-game

a. Ganondorf, Zelda, and Link do not necessarily "equip" the Triforce, however, they do retain any implicit power provided by being a bearer
b. Mario/Sonic/Kirby/Star Fox etc. characters can use any power-up/weapon they can use in their respective series, so long as they are shown to be able to use it, but only for the allotted time given in-game and you cannot use any infinite insta-win items
c. Olimar has 100 Pikmin of any type combination, not just 6 or 3​

IV) All characters are their canon height/weight

a. Size-scaling can only be used if it is GUARANTEED to be accurate (e.g. Adult Link in OoT is 5'7". If we used OoT Zelda (which we aren't) we would be able to compare their T-models and see how tall she is.)
b. Kirby is eight inches tall, Olimar is less than an inch tall​

V) If a character can use a mode of transportation, it's open to them

a. That means spaceships, tanks, cars, etc.

i) But it can only be used as a weapon if it has been shown that they are adept in using it as one canonically​

This is all I can think of, will be revised I'm sure.

​

 

[josh bones]

Week one, the week of the man in red himself,
SUPER MARIO see how he fares against the rest of the roster, and the best arguments win.

+0

 

[Gameboi834]

Week one, the week of the man in red himself,
SUPER MARIO , see how he fares against the rest of the roster, and the best arguments win.

That's getting way ahead of ourselves. We need to have a legitimate, fixed set of rules to go by and a lot of research has to be done.

 

[josh bones]

That's getting way ahead of ourselves. We need to have a legitimate, fixed set of rules to go by and a lot of research has to be done.

That's implying only one person would be doing research for every character. Each character can be defended when the time comes. My rulset is simple but effective
1: All powerups, weapons and items can be used. If it is used for a long period of time, it counts. (Not the triforce, more like the star rod from paper mario. Healing items, such as 1-ups can not be used)
2: Vehicles can be used, but only if there is no other way they can fight. (AKA: Fox can use arwing, and Falcon can use blue falcon, but Metaknight can not use halberd. As for warp star, I'll leave that up to you as a weapon or vehicle.)
3: The terrain should not effect the battle. (AKA: You can't do "it's a pool so sonic drowns)
4: Each character is there canonical sizes. (AKA, olimar is one inch tall)
Character specifics:
Pokemon Trainer is Red, and therefore can use gen 1-2 pokemon aside from mewtwo.

 

[liets]

Week one, the week of the man in red himself,
SUPER MARIO see how he fares against the rest of the roster, and the best arguments win.

+0

...You do realize you have Mario vs Mario in there, right?

 

[josh bones]

...You do realize you have Mario vs Mario in there, right?

...... You can debate that too if you want.

 

[liets]

...... You can debate that too if you want.

Are you telling me I could do something that is utterly ridiculous and useless?

I'll get back to you in a while

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

We're stilling going to need a method of research and a way of compiling it.

 

[Crystanium]

SSB4 Link is just a touched up version of TP Link.

Then we can use TP Link.

We have to use every incarnation of Zelda characters that have appeared in smash, but one Link at a time is okay.

I don't see why when it's not the current incarnation. Strength, speed, durability will all differ, thus making a contradictory form of Link. There would need to be a justification for why we should use the strongest and not the weakest.

Unless the game specifically says that the rest have infinite energy, then you're assuming that they would.

You and nessokman are both assuming, actually. nessokman can admit that Pit does not have infinite ammo, but that doesn't mean Pit doesn't have indefinite ammo. The burden of proof is on you if you contest that, since to say indefinite ammo is demonstrable.

You should keep in mind that it's normal for games to let you do thngs infinitely. Imagine if it requred you to eat and sleep to continue playing. Sure, some people would find that interesting, but for most it would be tedious and annoying. That's why the game doesn't have ammo or an energy meter.

You mean it's normal for some games. Even in a game like Metroid where beams are infinite (or indefinite), missiles, super missiles, power bombs (except in MOM), the dark, light, and annihilator beam, Phazon beam, and the affinity weapons are limited. In a game like 007, ammo is limited, except with cheats.

PK Beam literally appeared only in Mother 1 and never appeared in any other game. There is also no physical description of it in game or otherwise. The Gamma version causes instant death, and the Franklin badge only reflects that one move in the first game. In all other games it reflects any lightning attack for full damage. No matter how strong it is. Case in point, the Masked Man in Mother 3 has a lightning attack that will literally take out your entire party in one shot. With the Franklin Badge, the attack is automatically returned to sender, keeping Lucas unharmed and just about crippling the Masked Man.

Well, the question I'm asking is if the lightning in the games are actually lightning or just electricity with the description as "lightning", as it is in the case with the Gamma Metroids, I believe, who are said to shoot lightning. Since the description of the Franklin Badge is that it deflects lightning, it would seem to follow that, unless more evidence is presented, PK Beam was some type of electrical attack.

Also while the characters mentioned do have other methods of fighting Ness, they wouldn't know that he has such an item, and if they do happen to connect an attack that is reflected, they will be badly damaged before they can react (Elec Beam is able to take out a third of Mega Man's health for example). Though admittedly, Samus may have a leg up with her scanning system and plan ahead to use other attacks instead.

Well, using Samus from MOM (if this is the Samus of choice, due to the incarnation in SSB4), I'm honestly not sure what kind of plasma weapon she's using.

Bad example on my part. The way I worded it basically asserts that canon rule would be in effect.

I think its safe to say that any abilites demonstrated by any character that were fabricated for the game should only add on to the capability of their incarnation. Captain Falcon's pyromancy techniques are not used in any F-Zero game, to my understanding. So whatever we've seen of them in Smash would be considered within capability of his current canon incarnation.

Well, that's the problem. We never see Captain Falcon demonstrate this ability in the actual games. He may or may not have it. The song at the end of Story Mode seems to suggest that the creator(s) say CF has Falcon Punch. I'd like to think he has that ability. If he does, we don't know how powerful it would be. Because CF is mostly seen in his Blue Falcon, we could use his top speed and calculate the amount of damage he'd deal on his opponents.

In the first game, the Blue Falcon had a speed of 457 km/h and had the mass of 1,260 kg. In F-Zero GX and probably other games before it, but after F-Zero, the Blue Falcon's speed is greater. I'll calculate both. 457 km/h (283.85 mi/h) is 126.94 m/s (416.37 ft/s). So it seems to be at least comparable to an actual race car in terms of speed. I'll find this in newtons, which I'll convert to pounds-force, and then kinetic energy and show the TNT equivalent.

F = ma
F = (1,260 kg)(126.94 m/s)
F = 159,949 N, or 17.98 tons

KE = 1/2 mv^2
KE = 1/2 (1,260 kg)(126.94 m/s)^2
KE = 1/2 (1,260 kg)(16,114.89 m^2/s^2)
KE = 1/2 (20,304,763.89 kg m^2/s^2)
KE = 10,152,381.94 J, or 2.43 kg. of TNT.

Now, to use the same mass, but with the Blue Falcon using the speed booster, I was watching a video and saw something like 1,570 km/h. I couldn't get the digit in the one's place, which is why I'm going with what I saw in the other places.

F = ma
F= (1,260 kg)(436.11 m/s)
F = 549500 N, or 274.75 tons

KE = 1/2 mv^2
KE = 1/2 (1,260 kg)(1,901,92.90 m^2/s^2)
KE = 1/2 (239,643,055.56)
KE = 119,821,527.77 J, or 28.64 kg. of TNT.

Another thing, because anime would not count as original source material, things such as Pikachu's Electro Ball would be hard to cusp what they could actually be like in hypothetical battle. These predicaments may to for better or worse for some characters.

I know what you mean. Psychic, for example, shows Pokemon or humans being lifted up and surrounded by a blue aura. They're usually thrown afterwards. I can see what you mean by that, but I don't know if that'd be permissible, since people would then say the anime should be used for other things and not just for the way the attacks look.

I'm probably going to get flogged upon the keister for referencing this show, but in DEATH BATTLE!, Wiz & Boomstick determined what tools would give Link his most accurate representation by narrowing it down to the ones most often at his disposal and to provide certain counters against Cloud. The problem is that they use a composite Link similar to what I previously described.

A possible solution to this would be counting an OoT Link and TP Link as separate characters could discern them. Same for Zelda and Ganon(dorf). That would warrant enough variability in equipment, skills, feats, etc. to judge them individually. I also see all sorts of plot points and situations from all over the Zelda timeline being brought up around here to serve cases, which makes a mess (i.e., Link showing reliance on Zelda/divine materials to defeat Ganondorf, but LoZ Link shows he could defeat Ganon without them)

I can see your point and it seems to make sense, but when two incarnations are combined together, or if we're going to be seeing which items are standard for Link (and any other character who has multiple incarnations), then there's the issue with contradictory strength, speed, durability. We can't just say it would be preferable to use the strength from x, speed from y, and durability from z

On the other hand, we generally regard each incarnation contributing to a whole identity, and they are likely going to rank extremely close to one another in official rankings. So it could end up being a redundant measure.

For Mega Man, most of his attacks in Smash 4 take from Mega Man 1-3 if I'm not mistaken.

If that's the case, we should choose from one, preferably the best of the three.

What's this FactPile you speak of? I'm quite interesed in how you immerse yourself with your equations and scientific knowledge.

It's a message board dedicated to the whole crossover battles, but it's not restricted to one thing like this thread is. (I'm not complaining. I haven't seen this kind of match set up at FactPile, so it's nice getting a second opportunity. There was another thread like this long ago, which I also participated in.)

I'm no expert at physics, but what I do know, I try to apply it to fiction.

Perspective is only a problem from a distance though. I'm looking at Pit and the laser-flower thing who's name escapes me both touching the bottom of that crater, and I can confidently say my house might have some trouble fitting inside it. I'm fairly certain my house isn't a kilometer in length.

It doesn't look like it's touching the crater. It looks like another perspective problem.

Going by this its WARIO:

I like Game Theory, but I have a few problems.

1. This is from Super Smash Bros. Brawl, which is non-canon.
2. Even if we permitted this, that would mean Wario's height contradicts Samus' height, which is 6'3", according to the Metroid II: Return of Samus manual. This would also contradict I believe the first or second SSB game where Kirby is measured to be 8" tall, or Olimar, who is as small as a penny, I think.
3. If this proves that Wario is supposed to defeat all, and his flatus offers a total of 13,138 N (1.48 tons), then be sadly disappointed because Samus' mass and speed are confirmed in the manuals (RoS, MF, MOM), which means Samus produces 37,044 N (4.16 tons) when she uses the Speed Booster or shinespark.

It is a game limitation obviously, and second, if you are swinging a sword harder, you are creating a greater amount of force to move the object, causing it to move faster.
There is absolutely no need to try and bring physics into things because its just making things convoluted and non-concise.
If any individual is hurling massive obelisks, this suggests he is also capable of swinging the blade more powerfully, more quickly.

There is also a greater amount pushing force being created which is also the reason the blade is moving more quickly.
Its just...simple logic.

So, where did I disagree with any of this? (Except applying physics into the game.)

b. Mario/Sonic/Kirby/Star Fox etc. characters can use any power-up/weapon they can use in their respective series, so long as they are shown to be able to use it, but only for the allotted time given in-game and you cannot use any infinite insta-win items

I agree to some extent. Characters like Link or Samus can have items or upgrades on their person. This isn't necessarily the case with Mario, with the exception of games like Paper Mario where Mario has various badges and stuff to carry on him. If we took Mario from Super Mario 64, for example, this would not be the case and all Mario would be able to use are his natural or innate abilities. That would then mean he wouldn't be able to use fire flowers, just his punches, kicks, jumps, and ground pounds.

 

[Gameboi834]

I agree to some extent. Characters like Link or Samus can have items or upgrades on their person. This isn't necessarily the case with Mario, with the exception of games like Paper Mario where Mario has various badges and stuff to carry on him. If we took Mario from Super Mario 64, for example, this would not be the case and all Mario would be able to use are his natural or innate abilities. That would then mean he wouldn't be able to use fire flowers, just his punches, kicks, jumps, and ground pounds.

I was thinking that Mario would have some sort of inventory similar to the Mario RPG games or SMB3.
the problem with the Mario characters, specifically those who are playable in the RPG games, is that unlike the Zelda characters they are the same characters throughout the whole Mario series. We can't separate them from the RPG games or the sports games or what have you because they're all the same characters. That means they have hundreds of games to pull from and we'd have to either let them use all these abilities or limit them to a set limitation that we all have to agree on, e.g. Mario can use FLUDD or not. Maybe Mario can use one of each item?

 

[josh bones]

We're stilling going to need a method of research and a way of compiling it.

 

[Crystanium]

I was thinking that Mario would have some sort of inventory similar to the Mario RPG games or SMB3.
the problem with the Mario characters, specifically those who are playable in the RPG games, is that unlike the Zelda characters they are the same characters throughout the whole Mario series. We can't separate them from the RPG games or the sports games or what have you because they're all the same characters. That means they have hundreds of games to pull from and we'd have to either let them use all these abilities or limit them to a set limitation that we all have to agree on, e.g. Mario can use FLUDD or not. Maybe Mario can use one of each item?

I don't know if Mario in Paper Mario is the same as Mario in other Mario games. So far, Mario seems to have been consistent in Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine, and the Super Mario Galaxy games. But if Mario is going to get whatever item he can because he has had it at one point in time, then this has to apply to all characters, Link excluded. I personally just stick to one game, that game being the one where the character was at his or her prime.

 

[Kamiko]

You and nessokman are both assuming, actually. nessokman can admit that Pit does not have infinite ammo, but that doesn't mean Pit doesn't have indefinite ammo. The burden of proof is on you if you contest that, since to say indefinite ammo is demonstrable.


You mean it's normal for some games. Even in a game like Metroid where beams are infinite (or indefinite), missiles, super missiles, power bombs (except in MOM), the dark, light, and annihilator beam, Phazon beam, and the affinity weapons are limited. In a game like 007, ammo is limited, except with cheats.

I think you're completely missing what I'm saying. I'm not assuming Pit has infinite ammo. I'm saying that because the game doesn't imply in any way (as far as I know, let me know if it does) that Pit's weapons in-universe rather than in-game can function without expending any sort of resource, then we should do the logical thing and treat hem as if they would outside of the game.

I'm not just talking about weapons here. Sure, Metroid and Goldeneye may have limited ammo for some things, but what about walking and running? Are we to assume every character can run a marathon? No, characters would tire from fighting as they use their energy. They'd have to eat to replenish that energy. Every move a character makes would have some sort of cost. Unless a game explicitly states otherwise, then this rule should be enforced.

I'm not assuming; I'm making a decision. You're free to decide differently and be ok with Sonic never having to stop running though.

It doesn't look like it's touching the crater. It looks like another perspective problem.

Again, as far as I know, those flower things can't fly. So it MUST be touching the surface, which you can tell because it's stationary and the camera is moving around it. You're great with numbers, but I don't think visual judgement is one of your best skills.

 

[Gameboi834]

I don't know if Mario in Paper Mario is the same as Mario in other Mario games. So far, Mario seems to have been consistent in Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine, and the Super Mario Galaxy games. But if Mario is going to get whatever item he can because he has had it at one point in time, then this has to apply to all characters, Link excluded. I personally just stick to one game, that game being the one where the character was at his or her prime.

I believe it is the same Mario throughout the whole series, although even if we were to exclude those we would still have the side-scrolling, M&L, Sports, Donkey Kong, etc. games to pull from because those are for certain the same Mario as in the 3D games.
I'm game for using the character's prime game or the character holistically, but I personally think it would be more interesting to use all of that character's powers. Much more complicated, but also more fun.

 

[Crystanium]

I think you're completely missing what I'm saying. I'm not assuming Pit has infinite ammo. I'm saying that because the game doesn't imply in any way (as far as I know, let me know if it does) that Pit's weapons in-universe rather than in-game can function without expending any sort of resource, then we should do the logical thing and treat hem as if they would outside of the game.

I'm not just talking about weapons here. Sure, Metroid and Goldeneye may have limited ammo for some things, but what about walking and running? Are we to assume every character can run a marathon? No, characters would tire from fighting as they use their energy. They'd have to eat to replenish that energy. Every move a character makes would have some sort of cost. Unless a game explicitly states otherwise, then this rule should be enforced.

I'm not assuming; I'm making a decision. You're free to decide differently and be ok with Sonic never having to stop running though.

I see what you're saying, but just how much do you want to permit this? Go too far and we're trying to be as realistic as possible, which is a thread JOE! made years ago. Using Sonic as an example, this would mean that at the speed he travels, he can withstand a certain amount of g-force without any protective gear and not require the kcal. needed for running.

Normally, I've never been one to bifurcate in-game from in-universe (a new term for me). Not unless it was seen in-game, such as contradictions. So Mario can wander about in heated regions without any proper equipment and show no signs of passing out or dying from the gases. His Starman doesn't protect him from lava or magma, though. Drowning? Not a problem, except in some games. Same with space. Either it's a different Mario or inconsistencies.

Again, as far as I know, those flower things can't fly. So it MUST be touching the surface, which you can tell because it's stationary and the camera is moving around it. You're great with numbers, but I don't think visual judgement is one of your best skills.

I see. I thought you were talking about two other creatures, one seemingly compared to the crater and one close up. Actually, those look as tall as Pit. Let's say he has the appearance of a 17-year-old. And just because he's supposed to be based on Greek mythology, I'll go with a Greek male. Let's say 178.06 cm. (5'10"). I counted up to 24 Pits long, or 4,273.44 cm., which is 42.7344 m. (140.168832 ft.). I could then calculate each hemisphere four times? The middle will be two times, so that gives us 427.344 m. in diameter.

According to Wikipedia, "The fortified wall of Guérande is one of the best preserved and complete in France. Its circumference stretches 1,343 meters." The circumference for the Lunar Sanctum would be 1,342.54 m. in circumference. Well, once again, it's time to look for the distance. If Pit stretched his arm forward with his thumb and pinkie far apart, would he be able to fit the Lunar Sanctum? Let's say he could. That would be equal to 25 degrees. That would give us 963.81 m. for the distance.

963.81 m. / 31.360 s = 30.73 m/s, or 68.73 mi/h.

I believe it is the same Mario throughout the whole series, although even if we were to exclude those we would still have the side-scrolling, M&L, Sports, Donkey Kong, etc. games to pull from because those are for certain the same Mario as in the 3D games.
I'm game for using the character's prime game or the character holistically, but I personally think it would be more interesting to use all of that character's powers. Much more complicated, but also more fun.

I try to avoid composite forms. So, I'm not sure which Mario to use.

 

[IvanQuote]

Well, the question I'm asking is if the lightning in the games are actually lightning or just electricity with the description as "lightning", as it is in the case with the Gamma Metroids, I believe, who are said to shoot lightning. Since the description of the Franklin Badge is that it deflects lightning, it would seem to follow that, unless more evidence is presented, PK Beam was some type of electrical attack.

It appears to be the former. It's also worth noting that in Mother 1, it ONLY reflects PK Beam Gamma; it doesn't reflect PK Thunder or any other PK Beam variants. Considering that this was just in 1 game and all other games make it a point that it reflects lightning, this oddity may be ignored.

 

[Crystanium]

It appears to be the former. It's also worth noting that in Mother 1, it ONLY reflects PK Beam Gamma; it doesn't reflect PK Thunder or any other PK Beam variants. Considering that this was just in 1 game and all other games make it a point that it reflects lightning, this oddity may be ignored.

It's nice to see an image, which is supposed to appear as a bolt of lightning. Because this is coming from a person, however, I can only take "lightning" to mean something else like a Tesla coil generating electricity, rather than "atmospheric discharge". Unless this masked man can control weather.

I suspect lightning is a natural plasma because the air is heated up to the point of ionization. So the question I suppose that can be asked is if the plasma that is formed is also being redirected, or if it's just the electricity using the plasma as a medium to travel. If it's just a medium, then only electric attacks won't work.

To be fair, don't have Ness or Lucas fight Pikachu.

 

[Kamiko]

I see what you're saying, but just how much do you want to permit this? Go too far and we're trying to be as realistic as possible, which is a thread JOE! made years ago. Using Sonic as an example, this would mean that at the speed he travels, he can withstand a certain amount of g-force without any protective gear and not require the kcal. needed for running.

Normally, I've never been one to bifurcate in-game from in-universe (a new term for me). Not unless it was seen in-game, such as contradictions. So Mario can wander about in heated regions without any proper equipment and show no signs of passing out or dying from the gases. His Starman doesn't protect him from lava or magma, though. Drowning? Not a problem, except in some games. Same with space. Either it's a different Mario or inconsistencies.

Well, I'm mainly concerned with the general way things work rather than the exact numbers, so while magic isn't real, it should be obvious that if it was, stronger spells or other magical feats would naturally have a greater cost. So while explaining every possible thing about Sonic's speed may be difficult, we can at least be certain that it would be extremely exhausting and should only be useable for short durations. It shoud be be noted though that smaller things generally are more efficient and can withstand relatively greater forces. That's why house flies can manuever so well, among other things.

And yes, Mario does have a bunch of silly problems going on. I'm not sure where to begin sorting through all of that.

I see. I thought you were talking about two other creatures, one seemingly compared to the crater and one close up. Actually, those look as tall as Pit. Let's say he has the appearance of a 17-year-old. And just because he's supposed to be based on Greek mythology, I'll go with a Greek male. Let's say 178.06 cm. (5'10"). I counted up to 24 Pits long, or 4,273.44 cm., which is 42.7344 m. (140.168832 ft.). I could then calculate each hemisphere four times? The middle will be two times, so that gives us 427.344 m. in diameter.

According to Wikipedia, "The fortified wall of Guérande is one of the best preserved and complete in France. Its circumference stretches 1,343 meters." The circumference for the Lunar Sanctum would be 1,342.54 m. in circumference. Well, once again, it's time to look for the distance. If Pit stretched his arm forward with his thumb and pinkie far apart, would he be able to fit the Lunar Sanctum? Let's say he could. That would be equal to 25 degrees. That would give us 963.81 m. for the distance.

963.81 m. / 31.360 s = 30.73 m/s, or 68.73 mi/h.

I'm sure there are a bunch of smaller variables involved here, but those numbers seem much more accurate.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

This all depends whether or not Bowser has the Star Rod and if Link/Toon Link have taken down Ganondorf or not.

If Link/Toon Link have been taken down before Ganondorf, then there is no way to fully beat Ganondorf.

 

[4cast]

CAPTAIN FALCON

 

[Oracle_Summon]

I forgot to mention:

Does Kirby have Super Nova? If he does, then he will obliterate everyone, since the Super Nova makes Kirby's suction ability act like a Black Hole.

 

[Crystanium]

Well, I'm mainly concerned with the general way things work rather than the exact numbers, so while magic isn't real, it should be obvious that if it was, stronger spells or other magical feats would naturally have a greater cost. So while explaining every possible thing about Sonic's speed may be difficult, we can at least be certain that it would be extremely exhausting and should only be useable for short durations. It shoud be be noted though that smaller things generally are more efficient and can withstand relatively greater forces. That's why house flies can manuever so well, among other things.

But why? Sonic isn't normal (which makes me hate using the laws of physics and biology). Samus can run Mach 1.2 on a low-end. No doubt, she is an alien hybrid, so . . . I also know about the square-cube law. I'm still wondering just how realistic we have to make this. After all, if I really wanted to be mean, I could just use physics to find flaws, just like people use physics to show off character feats. (Not those feet.)

And yes, Mario does have a bunch of silly problems going on. I'm not sure where to begin sorting through all of that.

I don't know where to begin with Mario, but right now, thanks to Game Theory, I hate him.

I'm sure there are a bunch of smaller variables involved here, but those numbers seem much more accurate.

Well, all I did was power scale, and I know some aren't for that while others are. I recently did a calculation for planet Zebes' gravity, which I ended up with 503 times greater than Earth's gravity. Hehehe. However, what are we supposed to do with Pit's other two flight speeds that record him in supersonic speed? You may doubt one that I have done where Pit flies to space at the end. Maybe the Kármán line is lower, but when Pit tries smashing through the force field where Pseudo-Palutena is, the distance is at least 200 m.

I forgot to mention:

Does Kirby have Super Nova? If he does, then he will obliterate everyone, since the Super Nova makes Kirby's suction ability act like a Black Hole.

The description in Kirby: Triple Deluxe uses the word "vaporize". Well, Kirby is not vaporizing humans or human-sized enemies. However, as mentioned earlier in this thread, it takes 2.99 gigajoules to vaporize a human. Assuming this is the energy Kirby is using, his Crash ability will produce 0.71 tons of TNT. Since we never see any humans, or human-like, or human-sized enemies, it could be smaller.

 

[Kamiko]

But why? Sonic isn't normal (which makes me hate using the laws of physics and biology). Samus can run Mach 1.2 on a low-end. No doubt, she is an alien hybrid, so . . . I also know about the square-cube law. I'm still wondering just how realistic we have to make this. After all, if I really wanted to be mean, I could just use physics to find flaws, just like people use physics to show off character feats. (Not those feet.)

It depends on what you mean by "realistic". Of course there'll be problems if we try to apply real-world physics exactly as they are in reality, but everything should make sense in relation to each other. Heavy things being harder to move, stronger attacks costing more to perform. Things like that should hold true, even if the exact numbers don't match up to our own world. Much of what a character can do is probably less a part of that character's abilities and more just a part of the way their game world functions. It's probably a good idea to establish a set of rules that every character has to follow. If one character has infinite energy, then they all do. (They shouldn't though, I don't want to see Sonic running full speed forever.)

Well, all I did was power scale, and I know some aren't for that while others are. I recently did a calculation for planet Zebes' gravity, which I ended up with 503 times greater than Earth's gravity. Hehehe. However, what are we supposed to do with Pit's other two flight speeds that record him in supersonic speed? You may doubt one that I have done where Pit flies to space at the end. Maybe the Kármán line is lower, but when Pit tries smashing through the force field where Pseudo-Palutena is, the distance is at least 200 m.

This thread is going to make me watch the whole rest of the game, isn't it?

 

[Crystanium]

It depends on what you mean by "realistic". Of course there'll be problems if we try to apply real-world physics exactly as they are in reality, but everything should make sense in relation to each other. Heavy things being harder to move, stronger attacks costing more to perform. Things like that should hold true, even if the exact numbers don't match up to our own world. Much of what a character can do is probably less a part of that character's abilities and more just a part of the way their game world functions. It's probably a good idea to establish a set of rules that every character has to follow. If one character has infinite energy, then they all do. (They shouldn't though, I don't want to see Sonic running full speed forever.)

Any character capable of traveling at c would have infinite energy, but that's not the case with Sonic, so I question his ability to run at c and that if he can, it's not 186,282 mi/s. Again, it doesn't necessarily mean infinite energy as I noted even with projectiles, but an indefinite period.

Mario isn't exactly human, nor is Link, nor Pit, nor Samus, nor Sonic. They all exhibit some human frailties, however, such as being incapable of withstanding extreme temperatures, or taking damage from pointed objects. Mario cannot survive high falls, though Link kind of can, Pit gets back up after falling 5,000+ feet, and Samus, well, she breaks stuff on impact.

Different games demonstrate different laws because even if games have physics of their own, those physics change. You can see the issue below. This makes me not like using the laws of physics in fiction. My main issue is not knowing a better method.

This thread is going to make me watch the whole rest of the game, isn't it?

You don't need to. I just did another calculation for Samus on planet Norion in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. The gravity ends up being 0.63 g. This is based on the distance covered (1 km.) in what I averaged to be 18 seconds. This would actually be slightly closer to Earth's gravity, since that ends up being 124 mi/h (slightly higher than 1 g, but not by much). 120 mi/h is terminal velocity.

As for Zebes' gravity, which I could test in Metroid: Zero Mission, ends up being 503 g by using power scaling. (I personally don't like this method.) That's when you use the height of a character as a ruler. In this video, Samus touches the ceiling of that room as she proceeds to exit. Samus is 198 cm. tall (90 px). There's an additional 17 px. she covers by touching the ceiling.

17 px / 90 px = 0.189

Samus is 198 cm., as noted before.

198 cm. * 0.189 = 37 cm.

The total height is 4 Samus' tall, so . . .

198 cm. * 4 = 792 cm.

792 cm. + 37 cm. = 829 cm., or 8.29 m. (27 ft.)

I ended up with 0.580 seconds for Samus to leap from where she was standing, all the way to the ceiling.

g = 2(829.4000000000000022 m.) / (0.580 s)^2
= 2(829.4000000000000022 m.) / 0.3364 s
= 1658.8000000000000044 m. / 0.3364 s
= 4,931 m/s, or 503 g

Edit: I decided I'd try to find out Zebes' gravity in Metroid: Zero Mission. Hopefully I'll end up with a number close to 503 g. It will be somewhat consistent if this happens. Samus is 111 px. (198 cm.) tall. The room you see in which Samus jumps up to grab on the ledge is 336 px.

336 px. / 111 px. = 3.027027027027027
198 cm. * 3.027027027027027 = 599.351351351351346 cm.
599.351351351351346 cm. is 5.99351351351351346 m. (20 ft.)

It took Samus around 0.360 seconds to get to where she wanted. Gravity time!

g = 2(5.99351351351351346 m.) / (0.360 s)^2
= 2(5.99351351351351346 m.) / 0.1296 s
= 11.98702702702702692 m. / 0.1296 s
= 92.49249249249249166667 m/s, or 9.44 g

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Any character capable of traveling at c would have infinite energy, but that's not the case with Sonic, so I question his ability to run at c and that if he can, it's not 186,282 mi/s. Again, it doesn't necessarily mean infinite energy as I noted even with projectiles, but an indefinite period.

Mario isn't exactly human, nor is Link, nor Pit, nor Samus, nor Sonic. They all exhibit some human frailties, however, such as being incapable of withstanding extreme temperatures, or taking damage from pointed objects. Mario cannot survive high falls, though Link kind of can, Pit gets back up after falling 5,000+ feet, and Samus, well, she breaks stuff on impact.

Different games demonstrate different laws because even if games have physics of their own, those physics change. You can see the issue below. This makes me not like using the laws of physics in fiction. My main issue is not knowing a better method.



You don't need to. I just did another calculation for Samus on planet Norion in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. The gravity ends up being 0.63 g. This is based on the distance covered (1 km.) in what I averaged to be 18 seconds. This would actually be slightly closer to Earth's gravity, since that ends up being 124 mi/h (slightly higher than 1 g, but not by much). 120 mi/h is terminal velocity.

As for Zebes' gravity, which I could test in Metroid: Zero Mission, ends up being 503 g by using power scaling. (I personally don't like this method.) That's when you use the height of a character as a ruler. In this video, Samus touches the ceiling of that room as she proceeds to exit. Samus is 198 cm. tall (90 px). There's an additional 17 px. she covers by touching the ceiling.

17 px / 90 px = 0.189

Samus is 198 cm., as noted before.

198 cm. * 0.189 = 37 cm.

The total height is 4 Samus' tall, so . . .

198 cm. * 4 = 792 cm.

792 cm. + 37 cm. = 829 cm., or 8.29 m. (27 ft.)

I ended up with 0.580 seconds for Samus to leap from where she was standing, all the way to the ceiling.

g = 2(829.4000000000000022 m.) / (0.580 s)^2
= 2(829.4000000000000022 m.) / 0.3364 s
= 1658.8000000000000044 m. / 0.3364 s
= 4,931 m/s, or 503 g

I think it also has to do with where they are fighting. Near a body of water is Sonic's greatest weakness. What weapons are they allowed to bring into battle, is the question that needs to be asked.

I do like how you are bringing Science and Measuring Statistics into this, makes it more accurate.

 

[Crystanium]

I think it also has to do with where they are fighting. Near a body of water is Sonic's greatest weakness. What weapons are they allowed to bring into battle, is the question that needs to be asked.

I do like how you are bringing Science and Measuring Statistics into this, makes it more accurate.

It's funny Sonic is afraid of water, since he has the speed to run on it. As far as weapons go, it looks like it depends on which incarnation is being used in SSB4. Link seems to be the incarnation from The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, Samus' incarnation is from Metroid: Other M, Pit's is from Kid Icarus: Uprising, &c.

I wouldn't say it makes anything more accurate. For the most part, it makes things inflated. I don't like using physics for fiction. I just don't have a better method to show off feats. Everyone else agrees with using physics, so I'm just using it.

 

[Kamiko]

Any character capable of traveling at c would have infinite energy, but that's not the case with Sonic, so I question his ability to run at c and that if he can, it's not 186,282 mi/s. Again, it doesn't necessarily mean infinite energy as I noted even with projectiles, but an indefinite period.

Mario isn't exactly human, nor is Link, nor Pit, nor Samus, nor Sonic. They all exhibit some human frailties, however, such as being incapable of withstanding extreme temperatures, or taking damage from pointed objects. Mario cannot survive high falls, though Link kind of can, Pit gets back up after falling 5,000+ feet, and Samus, well, she breaks stuff on impact.

Different games demonstrate different laws because even if games have physics of their own, those physics change. You can see the issue below. This makes me not like using the laws of physics in fiction. My main issue is not knowing a better method.

The only method that wouldn't just be "this is how the game works" would be to create our own laws of physics, or to apply our own non-canon limitations to each charcter's abilities. Whether anyone else is willing to do any of that isn't up to me, but without at least one of those there are too many unknowns to actually figure this out. The only way we could know for certain is if we asked Nintendo directly, and I'm pretty confident we wouldn't get a straight answer anyway if we ever managed to get a response at all. Otherwise, this is all guesswork and opinions. I still think being both logical and creative is the most important thing for us to do here.

You don't need to. I just did another calculation for Samus on planet Norion in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. The gravity ends up being 0.63 g. This is based on the distance covered (1 km.) in what I averaged to be 18 seconds. This would actually be slightly closer to Earth's gravity, since that ends up being 124 mi/h (slightly higher than 1 g, but not by much). 120 mi/h is terminal velocity.

As for Zebes' gravity, which I could test in Metroid: Zero Mission, ends up being 503 g by using power scaling. (I personally don't like this method.) That's when you use the height of a character as a ruler. In this video, Samus touches the ceiling of that room as she proceeds to exit. Samus is 198 cm. tall (90 px). There's an additional 17 px. she covers by touching the ceiling.

17 px / 90 px = 0.189

Samus is 198 cm., as noted before.

198 cm. * 0.189 = 37 cm.

The total height is 4 Samus' tall, so . . .

198 cm. * 4 = 792 cm.

792 cm. + 37 cm. = 829 cm., or 8.29 m. (27 ft.)

I ended up with 0.580 seconds for Samus to leap from where she was standing, all the way to the ceiling.

g = 2(829.4000000000000022 m.) / (0.580 s)^2
= 2(829.4000000000000022 m.) / 0.3364 s
= 1658.8000000000000044 m. / 0.3364 s
= 4,931 m/s, or 503 g

And this is why I don't like using numbers alone to figure something out. Where does this formula come from? I don't see how Samus' height has anything to do with gravity. We should be looking at weight and fall speed.

 

[Crystanium]

CAPTAIN FALCON

I ignored this post only because the video didn't show up. Anyway, the problem with that video is that it assumes the flame from the Falcon Punch is caused by drag, when in fact we can just say it's caused by magic, since the F-Zero series has magic. Black Shadow and Deathborn, for example, use magic. The Skull was brought back to life through science and black magic. Air friction also doesn't create bird-like flames.

The only method that wouldn't just be "this is how the game works" would be to create our own laws of physics, or to apply our own non-canon limitations to each charcter's abilities. Whether anyone else is willing to do any of that isn't up to me, but without at least one of those there are too many unknowns to actually figure this out. The only way we could know for certain is if we asked Nintendo directly, and I'm pretty confident we wouldn't get a straight answer anyway if we ever managed to get a response at all. Otherwise, this is all guesswork and opinions. I still think being both logical and creative is the most important thing for us to do here.

We can use logic, but the same applies as with physics. Applying it will eventually find absurd results.

And this is why I don't like using numbers alone to figure something out. Where does this formula come from? I don't see how Samus' height has anything to do with gravity. We should be looking at weight and fall speed.

The formula comes from g = 2d/t^2. This is how you find out gravity. Using Samus' height, 1.98 m., I could then find how many pixels tall she is and then stack her on top of herself. This is done a lot in calculating fiction, especially video games. Do I agree with it? No. But it is applicable in the real world, so I guess that's why it's used. You could take a picture of the Empire State Building and then find the height and compare it to inches and say that the Empire State Building is x inches tall.

Edit: Problems run abound if I use kinematics to find the distance Samus jumped. For Zebes in Super Metroid, since it only took Samus 580 milliseconds to touch the ceiling, that means she only jumped 5.41 ft. (She would be traveling 20 mi/h.) It'd be cool to be able to jump that high, but that's not 27 ft.

The same is with Zero Mission. She's not jumping 5.41 ft. in the air, but pretty close with a height of 4.17 ft. (7.89 mi/h). And of course, the fall in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption shows Samus covering more distance than 17,000 m., the limit in-game.

 

[Kamiko]

We can use logic, but the same applies as with physics. Applying it will eventually find absurd results.

Well yeah, that's inevitable when the characters themselves are absurd. That's why we'd have to be creative as well, but I'm sure there'll be people who don't like that idea because these aren't our characters. If we don't take any liberties at all, then we get marathon man Sonic and various characters exploiting their infinite energy to charge up infinitely powerful attacks. Take your pick.

The formula comes from g = 2d/t^2. This is how you find out gravity. Using Samus' height, 1.98 m., I could then find how many pixels tall she is and then stack her on top of herself. This is done a lot in calculating fiction, especially video games. Do I agree with it? No. But it is applicable in the real world, so I guess that's why it's used. You could take a picture of the Empire State Building and then find the height and compare it to inches and say that the Empire State Building is x inches tall.

Edit: Problems run abound if I use kinematics to find the distance Samus jumped. For Zebes in Super Metroid, since it only took Samus 580 milliseconds to touch the ceiling, that means she only jumped 5.41 ft. (She would be traveling 20 mi/h.) It'd be cool to be able to jump that high, but that's not 27 ft.

The same is with Zero Mission. She's not jumping 5.41 ft. in the air, but pretty close with a height of 4.17 ft. (7.89 mi/h). And of course, the fall in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption shows Samus covering more distance than 17,000 m., the limit in-game.

First, I'm going to point out that Metroid games don't simulate realistic acceleration, so it's only natural Samus' upwards jump won't match up to the gravity implied by the fall. Second, after looking into this, I've found where you messed up in the Super Metroid calculation:

g = 2(829.4000000000000022 m.) / (0.580 s)^2
= 2(829.4000000000000022 m.) / 0.3364 s
= 1658.8000000000000044 m. / 0.3364 s
= 4,931 m/s, or 503 g

You forgot to move the decimal over when converting to meters. The actual result should be 5.03 g, which is probably still inaccurate because of the aforementioned lack of simulation, but it's much less ridiculous of a number.

So like I said, this is why I don't rely exclusively on numbers. Because one little mistake like this, and space shuttles start falling out of the sky. Also because these formulas don't usually take less obvious variables into consideration.

 

[Crystanium]

Well yeah, that's inevitable when the characters themselves are absurd. That's why we'd have to be creative as well, but I'm sure there'll be people who don't like that idea because these aren't our characters. If we don't take any liberties at all, then we get marathon man Sonic and various characters exploiting their infinite energy to charge up infinitely powerful attacks. Take your pick.

Actually, infinitely powerful attacks would only come about from characters running at c. Since Sonic supposedly can run at c, and since he's not producing infinite energy, nor is he massless, e = mc^2 can be ignored in the Sonicverse, or he's really only running 99% the speed of light. Of course, once again we do not see explosions, so physics behave differently in the Soniverse. I'm fine with admitting limited endurance for Sonic.

First, I'm going to point out that Metroid games don't simulate realistic acceleration, so it's only natural Samus' upwards jump won't match up to the gravity implied by the fall. Second, after looking into this, I've found where you messed up in the Super Metroid calculation

Video games don't simulate realistic acceleration, either. Let me say it again: My issue with using physics in fiction is that it produces inaccurate results. It's inflated and it assumes all fiction abides by our physics. I never assume any fiction abides by our physics. Tidbits of physics might, but for the most part, it doesn't. Those that do, that's all we can know. The burden of proof is on those who think our physics applies to fictional universes.

You forgot to move the decimal over when converting to meters. The actual result should be 5.03 g, which is probably still inaccurate because of the aforementioned lack of simulation, but it's much less ridiculous of a number.

Oops. Thanks for pointing that out. Not that I accepted it anyway. My intention was to show the absurdity of using our physics in fictional universes.

So like I said, this is why I don't rely exclusively on numbers. Because one little mistake like this, and space shuttles start falling out of the sky. Also because these formulas don't usually take less obvious variables into consideration.

If you have a better method, I'm all ears. Otherwise, this discussion is meaningless.

 

[Kamiko]

Actually, infinitely powerful attacks would only come about from characters running at c. Since Sonic supposedly can run at c, and since he's not producing infinite energy, nor is he massless, e = mc^2 can be ignored in the Sonicverse, or he's really only running 99% the speed of light. Of course, once again we do not see explosions, so physics behave differently in the Soniverse. I'm fine with admitting limited endurance for Sonic.

Or someone can just infinitely charge their attacks with their endless supply of power until they have however much they need to accomplished their goals. Mewtwo and Ganondorf seem the most likely to do something like this.

Video games don't simulate realistic acceleration, either. Let me say it again: My issue with using physics in fiction is that it produces inaccurate results. It's inflated and it assumes all fiction abides by our physics. I never assume any fiction abides by our physics. Tidbits of physics might, but for the most part, it doesn't. Those that do, that's all we can know. The burden of proof is on those who think our physics applies to fictional universes.


Oops. Thanks for pointing that out. Not that I accepted it anyway. My intention was to show the absurdity of using our physics in fictional universes.


If you have a better method, I'm all ears. Otherwise, this discussion is meaningless.

As much as I completely agree with all of that, no one listens to the other "better" method. People usually only listen to numbers. You're the one who started using them in the first place anyway.

 

[Crystanium]

Or someone can just infinitely charge their attacks with their endless supply of power until they have however much they need to accomplished their goals. Mewtwo and Ganondorf seem the most likely to do something like this.

Fortunately, that's not the case.

As much as I completely agree with all of that, no one listens to the other "better" method. People usually only listen to numbers. You're the one who started using them in the first place anyway.

What's the other "better" method?

I used physics because that's what everyone can agree on.

 

[Captain Zack]

This thread look coo-....

Well, that's the problem. We never see Captain Falcon demonstrate this ability in the actual games. He may or may not have it. The song at the end of Story Mode seems to suggest that the creator(s) say CF has Falcon Punch. I'd like to think he has that ability. If he does, we don't know how powerful it would be. Because CF is mostly seen in his Blue Falcon, we could use his top speed and calculate the amount of damage he'd deal on his opponents.

In the first game, the Blue Falcon had a speed of 457 km/h and had the mass of 1,260 kg. In F-Zero GX and probably other games before it, but after F-Zero, the Blue Falcon's speed is greater. I'll calculate both. 457 km/h (283.85 mi/h) is 126.94 m/s (416.37 ft/s). So it seems to be at least comparable to an actual race car in terms of speed. I'll find this in newtons, which I'll convert to pounds-force, and then kinetic energy and show the TNT equivalent.

F = ma
F = (1,260 kg)(126.94 m/s)
F = 159,949 N, or 17.98 tons

KE = 1/2 mv^2
KE = 1/2 (1,260 kg)(126.94 m/s)^2
KE = 1/2 (1,260 kg)(16,114.89 m^2/s^2)
KE = 1/2 (20,304,763.89 kg m^2/s^2)
KE = 10,152,381.94 J, or 2.43 kg. of TNT.

Now, to use the same mass, but with the Blue Falcon using the speed booster, I was watching a video and saw something like 1,570 km/h. I couldn't get the digit in the one's place, which is why I'm going with what I saw in the other places.

F = ma
F= (1,260 kg)(436.11 m/s)
F = 549500 N, or 274.75 tons

KE = 1/2 mv^2
KE = 1/2 (1,260 kg)(1,901,92.90 m^2/s^2)
KE = 1/2 (239,643,055.56)
KE = 119,821,527.77 J, or 28.64 kg. of TNT.

 

[Kamiko]

Fortunately, that's not the case.

No, but if we were to let everyone have infinite energy just because the games don't always imply otherwise, like a certain someone in here was trying to do, then that's what would happen.

What's the other "better" method?

I used physics because that's what everyone can agree on.

The other method isn't usually seen as better, but it's something that should be used alongside calculations to help guide them. It's just using human judgement, like what I first did when I came into the thread. Maybe no one will believe the things I say about something just by looking at it and thinking about it, but doubted or not, that method has gotten me very far in everything I do. It's how people make the perfect shot in whater your sport of choice is. I can guarantee the Mona Lisa wasn't painted with an equation.

All I'm asking really is for people to be reasonable.

 

[Crystanium]

No, but if we were to let everyone have infinite energy just because the games don't always imply otherwise, like a certain someone in here was trying to do, then that's what would happen.

I hope you're not saying I was trying to do that. I'm not going to make a no-limits fallacy, but that doesn't mean indefiniteness isn't permitted or possible. I even made fun of it by using Wolverine as an example. It makes me wonder now if the rings in the Sonicverse act as some sort of source of energy, though. Sonic doesn't seem like the kind of person to have endurance to keep him traveling Mach 1 for too long. Even the Flash has limitations.

Of course, for someone who runs a lot, he or she can increase his or her endurance. I used to be able to jog only half a mile before I had to stop. Now I can do two miles. So, in Sonic's case, he would need some source of energy. If he also takes four hours to absorb the nutrients, then we can only permit Sonic two minutes to run the speed of sound. Any faster and he'll run short of his energy.

The thing about Sonic, however, is that he won't require too much effort to defeat his opponents. At a mass of 35 kg., for every time he travels Mach 1, he'll be producing 12,005 newtons (1.35 tons-force). I don't think that'll break a femur, but it'll hurt. Of course, I wonder if Sonic can even withstand that impact. I doubt it, considering slower, blunt objects harm him. Maybe the rings protect him? I don't know.

The other method isn't usually seen as better, but it's something that should be used alongside calculations to help guide them. It's just using human judgement, like what I first did when I came into the thread. Maybe no one will believe the things I say about something just by looking at it and thinking about it, but doubted or not, that method has gotten me very far in everything I do. It's how people make the perfect shot in whater your sport of choice is. I can guarantee the Mona Lisa wasn't painted with an equation.

All I'm asking really is for people to be reasonable.

Define human judgment.

I'm sure many people think they're being reasonable.

 

[Kamiko]

I hope you're not saying I was trying to do that. I'm not going to make a no-limits fallacy, but that doesn't mean indefiniteness isn't permitted or possible. I even made fun of it by using Wolverine as an example. It makes me wonder now if the rings in the Sonicverse act as some sort of source of energy, though. Sonic doesn't seem like the kind of person to have endurance to keep him traveling Mach 1 for too long. Even the Flash has limitations.

Of course, for someone who runs a lot, he or she can increase his or her endurance. I used to be able to jog only half a mile before I had to stop. Now I can do two miles. So, in Sonic's case, he would need some source of energy. If he also takes four hours to absorb the nutrients, then we can only permit Sonic two minutes to run the speed of sound. Any faster and he'll run short of his energy.

The thing about Sonic, however, is that he won't require too much effort to defeat his opponents. At a mass of 35 kg., for every time he travels Mach 1, he'll be producing 12,005 newtons (1.35 tons-force). I don't think that'll break a femur, but it'll hurt. Of course, I wonder if Sonic can even withstand that impact. I doubt it, considering slower, blunt objects harm him. Maybe the rings protect him? I don't know.

No, I wasn't refering to you. I recently had someone point out to me though that Deadpool once used his regeneration to keep someone else fed when they were stranded. As for Sonic, the rings most likely are some sort of power source, considering the Super Sonic form drains one every second. It's entirely possible that they can be used defensively as well. Not that it's canon, but in an old comic the Death Egg's outer shell was lined with rings to protect it.

Define human judgment.

I'm sure many people think they're being reasonable.

Things like judging the size or distance of something by looking at it, or figuring out how much force you need to use to throw something based on how heavy it feels. Unfortunately, it's impossible to demonstrate skill with those things over the internet. That's why we started using numbers in the first place.

And yes, it's normal for people to never question themselves. But it would be nice if more people could do that just a little bit.

 

[Crystanium]

No, I wasn't refering to you. I recently had someone point out to me though that Deadpool once used his regeneration to keep someone else fed when they were stranded. As for Sonic, the rings most likely are some sort of power source, considering the Super Sonic form drains one every second. It's entirely possible that they can be used defensively as well. Not that it's canon, but in an old comic the Death Egg's outer shell was lined with rings to protect it.

That may have occurred in some Marvel comic, but yeah, even Deadpool would need to eat in order to reproduce cells. I'll look into the rings some more. I have done the same with Link's heart containers and though they are a game mechanic in-game, they are "life force" according to the manuals and in-game data. It would seem to make sense that the rings do act as some defense, though, since upon impact, Sonic loses many rings.

I won't say Sonic drops rings everywhere in reality, but perhaps it works more like he's wearing one or two rings and the more he sustains damage, the weaker the power becomes until they're inefficient and Sonic is subject even to hurting himself if he hits walls. He does require 50 rings and Chaos Emeralds to use his super form, so maybe my judgment about rings being a game mechanic was premature. It's just a hypothesis, but I like where it's going and I'm no Sonic fan.

 

[Rabbattack]

I made this mock-up Tier List is someone wants to finish it. It's in no particular order and makes a few assumptions:

I) Any character represents in different forms (Samus and Zamus, Mario and Dr. Mario, etc.) are treated as one and are assumed to possess the same attributes/strengths

a. Link, Toon Link, and Young Link are treated as TP, WW/PH, and OoT/MM Link, respectively​

II) The Pokemon Trainer has access to only Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivysaur
III) Each character has access to anything they can equip in-game

a. Ganondorf, Zelda, and Link do not necessarily "equip" the Triforce, however, they do retain any implicit power provided by being a bearer
b. Mario/Sonic/Kirby/Star Fox etc. characters can use any power-up/weapon they can use in their respective series, so long as they are shown to be able to use it, but only for the allotted time given in-game and you cannot use any infinite insta-win items
c. Olimar has 100 Pikmin of any type combination, not just 6 or 3​

IV) All characters are their canon height/weight

a. Size-scaling can only be used if it is GUARANTEED to be accurate (e.g. Adult Link in OoT is 5'7". If we used OoT Zelda (which we aren't) we would be able to compare their T-models and see how tall she is.)
b. Kirby is eight inches tall, Olimar is less than an inch tall​

V) If a character can use a mode of transportation, it's open to them

a. That means spaceships, tanks, cars, etc.

i) But it can only be used as a weapon if it has been shown that they are adept in using it as one canonically​

This is all I can think of, will be revised I'm sure.

​

I agree with everything listed here, especially the Link part. I was thinking that Olimar should be limited to six pikmin, as that is his character in smash. Either way it won't change the outcome of the list, so I won't complain.

Also for Dryn, only Link and Zelda get incarnations because they are different people. Samus is the same person throughout the series and is not replaced by a look like anywhere in her games. Young Link is the same person as adult Link from melee and should not be treated as a different fighter. Mario should should be given all the powers from every game he has had, until we get an official statement from Nintendo he should be treated as one person.

 

[Jmacz]

• Pokemon Trainer should only be given the first 151 pokemon, as his canon is Red.
• Red never gets a mega stone and cannot evolve his pokemon.

These two are untrue, sorry if someone else pointed this out but I didn't see it. If Red is the Cannon then he should be allowed to have any Pokemon in the first 251 considering Red travels to Johto and sits atop Mt. Silver. He also manages to evolve a Eevee into an Espeon.

And he does get a mega stone, I know we have said the base Anime is unreliable. But what about the anime about Red that is based off the game? If we are going by just Red's cannon, then that's a pretty good source imo. And no it isn't based of the Manga, if it was Red would of started with Poliwhirl.