Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Octillus]

Hulk strongest one there is.

 

[Ravio_Yo]

Well, gamewise Red canonically goes to Unova, so...

 

[Crystanium]

Also for Dryn, only Link and Zelda get incarnations because they are different people. Samus is the same person throughout the series and is not replaced by a look like anywhere in her games. Young Link is the same person as adult Link from melee and should not be treated as a different fighter. Mario should should be given all the powers from every game he has had, until we get an official statement from Nintendo he should be treated as one person.

I wouldn't mind if we had different incarnations presented separately and used differently for battle. In fact, to come up with a definitive incarnation for Link, we could have each incarnation face off against one another. I don't know which one would fight which one, though. Young Link should also be different from Link (OoT) because he loses everything and then goes on to Termina.

Mario should not be given all the powers from every game because that's a composite form, which is not canon. Of course, it is canon for Samus to have all her equipment after Metroid II: Return of Samus, Super Metroid, and Metroid: Other M because she doesn't lose any of these upgrades. Yet, I don't even think that should be permitted. We should either go by a standard form, the most recent incarnation, or the chronological incarnation.

 

[Enchlore]

Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

 

[Rabbattack]

These two are untrue, sorry if someone else pointed this out but I didn't see it. If Red is the Cannon then he should be allowed to have any Pokemon in the first 251 considering Red travels to Johto and sits atop Mt. Silver. He also manages to evolve a Eevee into an Espeon.

And he does get a mega stone, I know we have said the base Anime is unreliable. But what about the anime about Red that is based off the game? If we are going by just Red's cannon, then that's a pretty good source imo. And no it isn't based of the Manga, if it was Red would of started with Poliwhirl.

We are only counting game canon. We can't give Link his cartoon powers, we can't give Kirby is anime powers , we can't give Captain Falcon his anime powers, we can't give Mario his cartoon powers, we can't give Mega Man his cartoon and anime powers, we can't give Pacman his cartoon powers, we can't give Pikachu his cartoon powers. If we allowed one character to use a different source of canon other than games than we have to allow others as well. Pokemon Organs is not the same Red from the games. There are many different versions of Red, this is a video game debate so let's stick to games. Red caught all Kanto Pokemon and never took up the task for the Johto pokedex, stop filling in the blanks just because he went there. He was already able to get that Pokemon back in Kanto as it was not a region specific evolution. He went to train not to catch. The end.

 

[Rabbattack]

I wouldn't mind if we had different incarnations presented separately and used differently for battle. In fact, to come up with a definitive incarnation for Link, we could have each incarnation face off against one another. I don't know which one would fight which one, though. Young Link should also be different from Link (OoT) because he loses everything and then goes on to Termina.

Mario should not be given all the powers from every game because that's a composite form, which is not canon. Of course, it is canon for Samus to have all her equipment after Metroid II: Return of Samus, Super Metroid, and Metroid: Other M because she doesn't lose any of these upgrades. Yet, I don't even think that should be permitted. We should either go by a standard form, the most recent incarnation, or the chronological incarnation.

Whatever we choose we have to apply to everyone, no mixing. It's either composite or not. I agree with Dryn now and deleted what made me look bad. I misread what you wrote and changed my mind. I should have never challenged the big boss of logic, math, and science.

Sorry for the double post. I didn't mean it.

 

[κomıc]

Well, currently Lady Palutena is.

 

[Kamiko]

Well, currently Lady Palutena is.

This seems to be about more than a measure of pure power. Otherwise most of us would probably agree with that and be done with this.

 

[κomıc]

This seems to be about more than a measure of pure power. Otherwise most of us would probably agree with that and be done with this.

Yeah... Simply put that she's a goddess and even admits that she can "abuse" her powers if she wanted to.

 

[Jmacz]

We are only counting game canon. We can't give Link his cartoon powers, we can't give Kirby is anime powers , we can't give Captain Falcon his anime powers, we can't give Mario his cartoon powers, we can't give Mega Man his cartoon and anime powers, we can't give Pacman his cartoon powers, we can't give Pikachu his cartoon powers. If we allowed one character to use a different source of canon other than games than we have to allow others as well. Pokemon Organs is not the same Red from the games. There are many different versions of Red, this is a video game debate so let's stick to games. Red caught all Kanto Pokemon and never took up the task for the Johto pokedex, stop filling in the blanks just because he went there. He was already able to get that Pokemon back in Kanto as it was not a region specific evolution. He went to train not to catch. The end.

I'd say that's up for debate, this is taken from the Origins wiki.

Unlike the on-going television series, this special features the settings and characters from the original video games Pokémon Red and Blue, and is largely more faithful to the games' mechanics and designs.

The only thing that really differs from the game cannon, and Origins is that Red can mega evolve his Charizard.

And also, Red is an opponent of the user in Pokemon Stadium 2 as one of the Gym Leaders, and he had the 3 Legendary dogs in his Party (Entei, Raikou, and Suicune), along with the 3 starters from Johto in the first battle. So unless your going to tell me Pokemon Stadium doesn't count as game cannon, I'd say that is evidence enough that he has access to second gen Pokemon. And his Pokemon he uses during his final battle at the end of HGSS his Pokemon also know moves from newer generations, such as Iron Tail, Hydro Cannon. Leaf Storm, and a lot more.

 

[Crome]

This list isn't going to work. Ever.
Captain falcon is going top speed in his car, jumps out and falcon punches rob in the face and doesn't phase him. He then runs into olimar, being the same size as him.

When the robs hook up into the bombs in SSE nothing can stop them. Not even donkey kong, the one who was known for punching the moon down into the earth, couldn't even budge him.

Rob is top tier.

 

[ToastMiller]

Pokemon trainer canonically can only use 6 pokemon and can only use certain POKEMON MOVES that only affect damage values and status ailments. not memory loss or any of that ****.

Why is ness so low? He's awesome lol.

 

[Jmacz]

Pokemon trainer canonically can only use 6 pokemon and can only use certain POKEMON MOVES that only affect damage values and status ailments. not memory loss or any of that ****.

Why is ness so low? He's awesome lol.

Not true, Legendary Pokemon use their special abilities in the game as well. Ho-oh resurrects the legendary dogs, Celebi travels backwards and forwards in time, Kyogre and Groudon use their powers to flood the earth and cause volcanoes, and Dialga and Palkia try to destroy space and time.

This is why my vote is always for the Pokemon trainer all he needs is one of the Pokemon who can control time (Celebi or Dialga) and seeing how I have already proved that Red does in fact own Pokemon from the second generation, including the legendary trio. That means he could plausibly catch Celebi, and just go back in time and do what he pleases to ensure his victory.

As far as I know, one of the only other Smash Characters who have gone back in time is Sonic, and he has never done it under his own power. Something has helped him.

Edit: And Red owns his own Mewtwo, this is taken from Bulbapedia

He learns of Mewtwo, the only Kanto Pokémon he has not caught. Red makes his way to Cerulean Cave, where he finds and catches Mewtwo. With that, Red has completed the Kanto Pokédex.

So any arguments made for Mewtwo can also be made for Pokemon Trainer/Red because he has one himself.

 

[Crystanium]

Whatever we choose we have to apply to everyone, no mixing. It's either composite or not. I agree with Dryn now and deleted what made me look bad. I misread what you wrote and changed my mind. I should have never challenged the big boss of logic, math, and science.

Sorry for the double post. I didn't mean it.

I'm no big boss of logic, math, and science. >.>;

This is why my vote is always for the Pokemon trainer all he needs is one of the Pokemon who can control time (Celebi or Dialga) and seeing how I have already proved that Red does in fact own Pokemon from the second generation, including the legendary trio. That means he could plausibly catch Celebi, and just go back in time and do what he pleases to ensure his victory.

I'd say that's possible, but not plausible. When we discuss fictitious characters, we can't just take strength, speed, durability, endurance, &c. into consideration. We also have to take "character" into consideration as well. This means that while it's possible Red could do this, it needs to be demonstrated that traveling back in time to ensure victory is part of Red's character. If not, then it's not applicable.

So any arguments made for Mewtwo can also be made for Pokemon Trainer/Red because he has one himself.

I personally have critiqued Mewtwo and have not found him to be so great.

 

[Yakko93]

That's a tough one.

 

[Jmacz]

I'd say that's possible, but not plausible. When we discuss fictitious characters, we can't just take strength, speed, durability, endurance, &c. into consideration. We also have to take "character" into consideration as well. This means that while it's possible Red could do this, it needs to be demonstrated that traveling back in time to ensure victory is part of Red's character. If not, then it's not applicable.

That's the problem with not being able to use the Origins Anime or the manga, Red's game character is really up to the user. All of his actual character development happens in the Manga and anime.

 

[Crystanium]

That's the problem with not being able to use the Origins Anime or the manga, Red's game character is really up to the user. All of his actual character development happens in the Manga and anime.

Of course, but even if you used those sources, does Red ever think of going back in time to ensure victory?

 

[egaddmario]

Can't wait until Shulk gets confirmed so this thread has to bow to him and his visions. "Ganondorf can do this" "Shulk knows that'll happen and he uses Monado Speed to dodge" "Well, Ness can do this" "And again, Shulk's visions and Monado Shield will prevent the damage or Monado Armor plus Light Heal will mitigate any damage he might take"

 

[Crystanium]

Can't wait until Shulk gets confirmed so this thread has to bow to him and his visions. "Ganondorf can do this" "Shulk knows that'll happen and he uses Monado Speed to dodge" "Well, Ness can do this" "And again, Shulk's visions and Monado Shield will prevent the damage or Monado Armor plus Light Heal will mitigate any damage he might take"

I always thought people were referring to She Hulk. Anyway, this Shulk fellow isn't in SSB4, so that's irrelevant.

 

[Jmacz]

Of course, but even if you used those sources, does Red ever think of going back in time to ensure victory?

No but he does whatever he can to save himself, his friends and his Pokemon. He has his Scyther kill Koga's Arbok because it is trying to kill Blue. Red does know about Celebi, and I assume he battles along side it to though Bulbapedia is very vague in it's description.

Red and Blue then travel underground with Blue's new Rhydon towards Ilex Forest, where the villainous Masked Man headed. Along the way, they meet Bruno and Koga, two former enemies, who help them on their way and tell them about Celebi.

When they arrive at Ilex Forest, Red, Blue, and the other main characters then team up with several legendary Pokémon to help fight the Masked Man. During the battle Red finally learns that Yellow is a girl. At the end of the story, Gold becomes impressed with Red and goes to train under him at Mt. Silver.

That is from the end of the Johto Manga, and I'm not sure if I ever got that far I read the Kanto series and some Johto but I don't think I ever finished it so I'm not familiar with this specific part. Celebi's time travel powers are used in the anime and movies to save the world and such. So it certainly isn't out of the realm of possibilities. If there is anyone who is more familiar with the later parts of the Pokemon Manga that can shed some light on this, please do. They are kind of hard to find, because I'm pretty sure you're supposed to pay for them which is why I stopped reading in the first place.

 

[Rabbattack]

I'd say that's up for debate, this is taken from the Origins wiki.



The only thing that really differs from the game cannon, and Origins is that Red can mega evolve his Charizard.

And also, Red is an opponent of the user in Pokemon Stadium 2 as one of the Gym Leaders, and he had the 3 Legendary dogs in his Party (Entei, Raikou, and Suicune), along with the 3 starters from Johto in the first battle. So unless your going to tell me Pokemon Stadium doesn't count as game cannon, I'd say that is evidence enough that he has access to second gen Pokemon. And his Pokemon he uses during his final battle at the end of HGSS his Pokemon also know moves from newer generations, such as Iron Tail, Hydro Cannon. Leaf Storm, and a lot more.

Moves created in later generations are fine because they must have already existed before in the older games.
As long as you don't bring in anime or Pokemon he has never been seen to own I'm fine. Don't give him a Snivy just because he has been to Unova. I won't argue over spinoff games this time as I suck at the maximum level when it comes to thinking. Maybe our sempai, science god, Dryn, can help us.

No but he does whatever he can to save himself, his friends and his Pokemon. He has his Scyther kill Koga's Arbok because it is trying to kill Blue. Red does know about Celebi, and I assume he battles along side it to though Bulbapedia is very vague in it's description.



That is from the end of the Johto Manga, and I'm not sure if I ever got that far I read the Kanto series and some Johto but I don't think I ever finished it so I'm not familiar with this specific part. Celebi's time travel powers are used in the anime and movies to save the world and such. So it certainly isn't out of the realm of possibilities. If there is anyone who is more familiar with the later parts of the Pokemon Manga that can shed some light on this, please do. They are kind of hard to find, because I'm pretty sure you're supposed to pay for them which is why I stopped reading in the first place.

We are using Red from the games. He has to be seen catching Celebi or he can't use it. Having the characters items, abilities, and Pokemon be all up to the player isn't a problem, we can just use one combination that brings out his maximum potential. After that we just add the scripted parts from stadium and generation 5.

 

[egaddmario]

I always thought people were referring to She Hulk. Anyway, this Shulk fellow isn't in SSB4, so that's irrelevant.

Not a believer in the Gematsu leak i see. No matter. It's only a matter of time until Shulk is confirmed and then is the most powerful character in Smash canonically. Especially with the ending of Xenoblade Chronicles...

 

[Crome]

This thread is the equivalent of playing guns with your friend when you are 5.
"Bang bang! You're dead!"
"NUH-HUH! You missed me!"
"YEA-HUH!"
"Yea well, I uh, had an invisible shield!"

/repeat

 

[Crystanium]

No but he does whatever he can to save himself, his friends and his Pokemon. He has his Scyther kill Koga's Arbok because it is trying to kill Blue. Red does know about Celebi, and I assume he battles along side it to though Bulbapedia is very vague in it's description.

That is from the end of the Johto Manga, and I'm not sure if I ever got that far I read the Kanto series and some Johto but I don't think I ever finished it so I'm not familiar with this specific part. Celebi's time travel powers are used in the anime and movies to save the world and such. So it certainly isn't out of the realm of possibilities. If there is anyone who is more familiar with the later parts of the Pokemon Manga that can shed some light on this, please do. They are kind of hard to find, because I'm pretty sure you're supposed to pay for them which is why I stopped reading in the first place.

As I said, it is possible, so of course it's not outside the realm of possibilities.

Not a believer in the Gematsu leak i see. No matter. It's only a matter of time until Shulk is confirmed and then is the most powerful character in Smash canonically. Especially with the ending of Xenoblade Chronicles...

I've never seen this "Gematsu leak". Even if Shulk ends up being confirmed, he'll be critiqued and we can see if he really is the most powerful.

 

[egaddmario]

As I said, it is possible, so of course it's not outside the realm of possibilities.



I've never seen this "Gematsu leak". Even if Shulk ends up being confirmed, he'll be critiqued and we can see if he really is the most powerful.

It's proven itself true multiple times already. http://gematsu.com/2014/04/rumor-shulk-palutena-set-super-smash-bros just give it a read. And once he is confirmed, his canon shows he's capable of some pretty powerful stuff, but i won't get into that for spoiler reasons. Check out the Shulk thread if you need convincing though.

 

[Super Writer]

Thinking about it, does technology count? Because in Super Mario Galaxy, while he didn't mean to do it, Bowser created a giant black hole capable of destroying the universe. After stealing the grand stars Bowser has the resources to destroy the entire universe and didn't even know it, I'm not sure how you top that until you destroy the multiverse. So I guess I would vote Bowser, but only under the right circumstances.

But then there's the Luma, who can transform into entire planets, which is quite a feet, but also questionable as they are never shown becoming anything too big, but fact remains SMG explains planets being the result of their work, which might hint that some are capable of becoming massive worlds. Meaning I would argue in potential power I would say the Luma is the strongest, who counts.

But then again Kirby has killed countless doomsday tier villains, some capable of wiping out entire galaxies or more, which if put up to relative measurements means Kirby is actually the strongest in raw physical power, it's just considerably less obvious...

But finally there is R.O.B., who in a meta sense is the strongest of them all, acting as a trojan horse to make people buy the NES, and thus is a creature capable of manipulating cosmic beings (us), jumpstarting the video game industry and leading to a new generation of game developers, who create the games where Bowser almost destroys the universe through mechanical power, Luma saves it through potential power, and Kirby defeats greater threats through physical power.

Meaning through manipulation of greater beings, greater beings that ultimately control the lives of these characters, R.O.B., a gaming peripheral that didn't even work well, is indeed the strongest character in Super Smash Bros.

All praise R.O.B.

 

[Kamiko]

Thinking about it, does technology count? Because in Super Mario Galaxy, while he didn't mean to do it, Bowser created a giant black hole capable of destroying the universe. After stealing the grand stars Bowser has the resources to destroy the entire universe and didn't even know it, I'm not sure how you top that until you destroy the multiverse. So I guess I would vote Bowser, but only under the right circumstances.

We should probably only be allowing things that the characters can be expected to have available at any given random moment. So for Bowser to have access to something as powerful as that, he'd have to recreate the conditions for it in the middle of battle.

But then there's the Luma, who can transform into entire planets, which is quite a feet, but also questionable as they are never shown becoming anything too big, but fact remains SMG explains planets being the result of their work, which might hint that some are capable of becoming massive worlds. Meaning I would argue in potential power I would say the Luma is the strongest, who counts.

Well, that's like saying a handful of dirt is the stronget, since that can also become a planet over time. A Luma needs a lot of work to become a planet, so the same rule from the Bowser example would apply here. Even then, I don't think becoming a planet would normally help win a fight.

But then again Kirby has killed countless doomsday tier villains, some capable of wiping out entire galaxies or more, which if put up to relative measurements means Kirby is actually the strongest in raw physical power, it's just considerably less obvious...

Kirby doesn't defeat those with raw power, he does so by avoiding damage and turning their own power against them. Kirby's final bosses are DEFINITELY more powerful than he is, but power doesn't always get one far without skill.

But finally there is R.O.B., who in a meta sense is the strongest of them all, acting as a trojan horse to make people buy the NES, and thus is a creature capable of manipulating cosmic beings (us), jumpstarting the video game industry and leading to a new generation of game developers, who create the games where Bowser almost destroys the universe through mechanical power, Luma saves it through potential power, and Kirby defeats greater threats through physical power.

Meaning through manipulation of greater beings, greater beings that ultimately control the lives of these characters, R.O.B., a gaming peripheral that didn't even work well, is indeed the strongest character in Super Smash Bros.

All praise R.O.B.

Now you're just being silly.

 

[Fastblade5035]

This thread got so much better since I abandoned it. Lemme go grab my character calculations so I can contribute.

 

[Crystanium]

It's proven itself true multiple times already. http://gematsu.com/2014/04/rumor-shulk-palutena-set-super-smash-bros just give it a read. And once he is confirmed, his canon shows he's capable of some pretty powerful stuff, but i won't get into that for spoiler reasons. Check out the Shulk thread if you need convincing though.

I want to say that's a probabilistic fallacy, but I could be wrong. Something that has been proved true multiple times does not entail it will be true at all times. Humans are inclined to believe this, however, or more likely to accept 1 in 1,000,000, ignoring the other 999,999 times something did not occur. For example, say you flip a coin 4 out of 5 times. Of those 4 times you end up with heads. Humans tend to think the next flip will land on heads, though this is not always the case.

For one to get heads 5 out of 5 times, there would need to be more people involved, making the likelihood much higher. Using this site, let's observe a few things. This tipster said Pac-Man and Mii will be in SSB4. It turned out this was correct. Then you have Palutena, who is also in SSB4. It wouldn't be a surprise to see Pokemon from X/Y, since that seems to be Nintendo's MO. What about Chrom, Chorus Men, or Shulk?

Right now you have 4 out of 7 on the roster, but I should say 3 out of 6, since adding the current generation of Pokemon is no surprise. It would be a surprise if the Pokemon of X/Y was specifically named, but so far it's not. It's about as equal as me saying, "The coin will land either on heads or tails" and then saying, "I was right!" when it lands on either one. If Shulk appears, so what? Right now he's not on the roster, so he's irrelevant.

 

[Super Writer]

We should probably only be allowing things that the characters can be expected to have available at any given random moment. So for Bowser to have access to something as powerful as that, he'd have to recreate the conditions for it in the middle of battle.


Well, that's like saying a handful of dirt is the stronget, since that can also become a planet over time. A Luma needs a lot of work to become a planet, so the same rule from the Bowser example would apply here. Even then, I don't think becoming a planet would normally help win a fight.


Kirby doesn't defeat those with raw power, he does so by avoiding damage and turning their own power against them. Kirby's final bosses are DEFINITELY more powerful than he is, but power doesn't always get one far without skill.


Now you're just being silly.

The entire post was just being silly, and I was more pointing out how relative it all is.

Power can be put on many different terms, and the biggest problem with this thread in general is how all over the place each character is. Mario once killed a reality destroying entity by jumping on it in Super Paper Mario, if he can do that how strong is his jump? Does that power apply when he's not made of paper? Does Hyrule Warriors Link apply to this debate? Or how about the fact that Donkey Kong doesn't use power up, when every other character in Smash has a few, Mario's fireballs, Samus's various upgrades, etc. Should we allow Samus to use her charge shot when Donkey Kong comes with nothing?

Long story short, there is no answer as to who is the strongest as most of the characters are inconsistent. It's like arguing about who's stronger, Superman or the Hulk, it can't be answered absolutely.

P.S. Enter room, turn into planet. Everyone is crushed. Instant victory. It's cheap but a valid strategy.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

Yeah... Simply put that she's a goddess and even admits that she can "abuse" her powers if she wanted to.

I know I said I had no intentions of coming back into this argument, but I think it's worth noting that in Kid Icarus' canon, Palutena is FAAAARRRR from being the strongest God/Goddess. She pretty much admits on several occasions that there are stronger Gods/Goddesses than herself, and many of them actually appear in Uprising.

Considering that Medusa pretty much subdued Palutena alone in the original Kid Icarus, and Hades has proven that Medusa is a single angry punch away from vaporization at his hands at all time, I'd say that chances are that Palutena is EXTREMELY low in the hierarchy of Gods and Goddesses in Kid Icarus canon. It's just that, in comparison to most of the Smashers, Palutena is exceedingly powerful.

Spoiler

Still, considering Pit fights and defeats Palutena while she's under the control of the Chaos Kin - something they bring up in her trailer, too, amusingly enough - I'd say that doesn't bode particularly well for Palutena when it comes to deciding who's strongest of the Smashers canonically.

Anyway, probably the best way to approach their canonical strength is to consider what they have available to them at any one time, and only consider equipment or other items they'd normally have available to them. For example, Samus would have a full gamut of abilities because they're exclusive to her Power Suit, but someone like, say, Mario, wouldn't be using Invincibility Stars because they're not something he traditionally has available to him without going out of his way to find and obtain one. Something they'd traditionally not be able to do in an all-out slobber knocker.

At any rate, the actual fight probably boils down to about ten of them tops, anyway.

P.S. Enter room, turn into planet. Everyone is crushed. Instant victory. It's cheap but a valid strategy.

Sure, it'd be a valid strategy if Rosalina could come up with the immense amount of star bits required to feed her Luma during the fight, but considering she only seems to produce about three at a time in the star bit launching special attack she's got available, it's safe to say that a fight would be long over before she could have a Luma transform.

 

[κomıc]

I know I said I had no intentions of coming back into this argument, but I think it's worth noting that in Kid Icarus' canon, Palutena is FAAAARRRR from being the strongest God/Goddess. She pretty much admits on several occasions that there are stronger Gods/Goddesses than herself, and many of them actually appear in Uprising.

Considering that Medusa pretty much subdued Palutena alone in the original Kid Icarus, and Hades has proven that Medusa is a single angry punch away from vaporization at his hands at all time, I'd say that chances are that Palutena is EXTREMELY low in the hierarchy of Gods and Goddesses in Kid Icarus canon. It's just that, in comparison to most of the Smashers, Palutena is exceedingly powerful.

Spoiler

Still, considering Pit fights and defeats Palutena while she's under the control of the Chaos Kin - something they bring up in her trailer, too, amusingly enough - I'd say that doesn't bode particularly well for Palutena when it comes to deciding who's strongest of the Smashers canonically.

Anyway, probably the best way to approach their canonical strength is to consider what they have available to them at any one time, and only consider equipment or other items they'd normally have available to them. For example, Samus would have a full gamut of abilities because they're exclusive to her Power Suit, but someone like, say, Mario, wouldn't be using Invincibility Stars because they're not something he traditionally has available to him without going out of his way to find and obtain one. Something they'd traditionally not be able to do in an all-out slobber knocker.

At any rate, the actual fight probably boils down to about ten of them tops, anyway.

I want to add to that Chaos Kin thing

Spoiler

Pit wasn't really fighting Palutena but rather the Chaos Kin itself. But you do raise a point about other Gods and Goddesses being stronger than Palutena. In that series, Hades and Viridi rank up there. Even then that's all for debate for another day.

 

[Fastblade5035]

http://www.factpiletopia.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=367&hilit=Samus
This thread alone has everything you'll ever need for Samus. Yeah, she's OP as **** even without the damn Power Suit. If you see Gravity Suit Samus, just quit.
Seriously, Samus could pimp slap most, if not of Marvel Earth's heavy hitters, including Thor and Hulk. Actually, she probably stomps Hulk.
She should automatically be SS+ tier.

http://www.factpiletopia.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=33253&p=421912&hilit=link#p421912
Good strength calcs for Link. A composite Link is truly terrifying, what with possibly infinite magic, multiple invulnerability magic spells, multiple magic armors, a Master Sword on super steroids, and transformation spells. Anyone who can shut his magic off drastically increases their odds of winning, but even then Link's bombs are impressive and there's always the Volcano-freezing Ice Arrows and the indestructible Hylian Shield.
This isn't even counting the Four Sword or Mirror Shields, which are equally terrifyingly powerful.
Limiting Link to just one incarnation is a big nerf. By far, ALTTP/OOX/LA Link is the most powerful in magic and defenses. TP and WW/PH Link are the best in 1v1 combat. Without overpowered magic, Link is a strong metahuman with plenty of gadgets. He's basically Batman, to be honest. Like Batman, a single Link (not counting ALTTP Link) is tricky to beat, but higher tier characters like Samus should have no problem disposing of him.
Depending on his gear and skillset, Link is either low-mid tier, low high tier, or S+ tier at maximum.

Everyone should know that Rosalina has universe-busting levels of durability. There's no reason to separate her from her legion of Lumas, so... she can basically just rewrite the universe and forget to add you back in. This deserves a tier of SSS+.
Seriously, this **** makes 99% of the Marvel universe look like *******. DC too, with some exceptions. (Screw Flash.)

http://www.screwattack.com/news/dea...bescent-pitty-patty-pretty-palutena’s-platoon
Pit is basically Link + MOAR MAGIC + MOAR WEAPONS - Strategy.
His shield is a great NOPE to projectiles. He can fall hundreds of meters flat into the ground, and get up unfazed. He also survived the vacuum of space. Also hits from the building-buster Hades. Nothing drastically OP.
Pit does have FTL reaction times, though, so getting some real damage on him is gonna be difficult.
His weapons are self-explanatory, but holy hell he has a **** ton of them.
http://kidicarus.wikia.com/wiki/Powers
Then he has a **** ton of powers.
Probably S tier or upper A.

Kirby = http://www.screwattack.com/news/death-analysis-pink-abyss-horrific-might


I'll get back to this later, right now I have other stuff to waste time on.

 

[Kamiko]

The entire post was just being silly, and I was more pointing out how relative it all is.

Power can be put on many different terms, and the biggest problem with this thread in general is how all over the place each character is. Mario once killed a reality destroying entity by jumping on it in Super Paper Mario, if he can do that how strong is his jump? Does that power apply when he's not made of paper? Does Hyrule Warriors Link apply to this debate? Or how about the fact that Donkey Kong doesn't use power up, when every other character in Smash has a few, Mario's fireballs, Samus's various upgrades, etc. Should we allow Samus to use her charge shot when Donkey Kong comes with nothing?

Long story short, there is no answer as to who is the strongest as most of the characters are inconsistent. It's like arguing about who's stronger, Superman or the Hulk, it can't be answered absolutely.

Alright, I got it. Some people are making arguments like those a little more seriously, so I thought you might've been one of them. Glad to see that's not the case.

I'm going to have to say though that Donkey Kong would unfortunately be outmatched either way, but Samus should be given the Charge Beam as it's something she normally has and I see no reason it would become unavailable.

P.S. Enter room, turn into planet. Everyone is crushed. Instant victory. It's cheap but a valid strategy.

Well, I always imagined everyone would be fighting outside, but yeah, under the right circumstances I guess that could happen.

http://www.factpiletopia.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=367&hilit=Samus
This thread alone has everything you'll ever need for Samus. Yeah, she's OP as **** even without the damn Power Suit. If you see Gravity Suit Samus, just quit.
Seriously, Samus could pimp slap most, if not of Marvel Earth's heavy hitters, including Thor and Hulk. Actually, she probably stomps Hulk.
She should automatically be SS+ tier.

http://www.factpiletopia.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=33253&p=421912&hilit=link#p421912
Good strength calcs for Link. A composite Link is truly terrifying, what with possibly infinite magic, multiple invulnerability magic spells, multiple magic armors, a Master Sword on super steroids, and transformation spells. Anyone who can shut his magic off drastically increases their odds of winning, but even then Link's bombs are impressive and there's always the Volcano-freezing Ice Arrows and the indestructible Hylian Shield.
This isn't even counting the Four Sword or Mirror Shields, which are equally terrifyingly powerful.
Limiting Link to just one incarnation is a big nerf. By far, ALTTP/OOX/LA Link is the most powerful in magic and defenses. TP and WW/PH Link are the best in 1v1 combat. Without overpowered magic, Link is a strong metahuman with plenty of gadgets. He's basically Batman, to be honest. Like Batman, a single Link (not counting ALTTP Link) is tricky to beat, but higher tier characters like Samus should have no problem disposing of him.
Depending on his gear and skillset, Link is either low-mid tier, low high tier, or S+ tier at maximum.

Everyone should know that Rosalina has universe-busting levels of durability. There's no reason to separate her from her legion of Lumas, so... she can basically just rewrite the universe and forget to add you back in. This deserves a tier of SSS+.
Seriously, this **** makes 99% of the Marvel universe look like *****es. DC too, with some exceptions. (Screw Flash.)

http://www.screwattack.com/news/death-analysis-pint-sized-petite-prepubescent-pitty-patty-pretty-palutena’s-platoon
Pit is basically Link + MOAR MAGIC + MOAR WEAPONS - Strategy.
His shield is a great NOPE to projectiles. He can fall hundreds of meters flat into the ground, and get up unfazed. He also survived the vacuum of space. Also hits from the building-buster Hades. Nothing drastically OP.
Pit does have FTL reaction times, though, so getting some real damage on him is gonna be difficult.
His weapons are self-explanatory, but holy hell he has a **** ton of them.
http://kidicarus.wikia.com/wiki/Powers
Then he has a **** ton of powers.
Probably S tier or upper A.

Kirby = http://www.screwattack.com/news/death-analysis-pink-abyss-horrific-might


I'll get back to this later, right now I have other stuff to waste time on.

All of that uses exactly the kinds of things I keep telling people to avoid. Samus' punches are NOT more powerful than a Power Bomb.

 

[Crystanium]

Power can be put on many different terms, and the biggest problem with this thread in general is how all over the place each character is.

The word "strongest" in the title of the thread likely is using the definition, "possessing skills and qualities that create a likelihood of success". (OED) WIth regard to "power", "the ability to do something or act in a particular way, especially as a faculty or quality". (ibid.) I agree that this thread wasn't exactly set up from the get-go, as it was before when Raizen made this type of thread. With time, I will try to present each character's abilities and present who I think belongs in this or that part of the tier.

Mario once killed a reality destroying entity by jumping on it in Super Paper Mario, if he can do that how strong is his jump?

Reality destroying is not equal to extreme durability. I take it you're referring to Dimentio. He wasn't all that impressive. I feel people put as much hype on him as they do with Fierce Deity. Mario's jumping ability would require that he add mass to himself or that he speeds up as he's about to hit his opponent to do any serious damage. The problem is neither of these occur, so a third option needs to be presented for Mario.

Does that power apply when he's not made of paper?

It depends. Is Paper Mario the same incarnation as Mario from 64, Sunshine, and the SMG series? I tend to think Mario can use his jump, spin jump, ground pound because they're his standard attacks. Of course, once again, being able to harm some "reality destroyer" doesn't entail said "reality destroyer" is extremely durable.

Does Hyrule Warriors Link apply to this debate?

No, as that's a spin-off. Link from Hyrule Warriors would only be applicable if you're using that specific incarnation.

Or how about the fact that Donkey Kong doesn't use power up, when every other character in Smash has a few, Mario's fireballs, Samus's various upgrades, etc. Should we allow Samus to use her charge shot when Donkey Kong comes with nothing?

Some characters are, unfortunately, handicapped. And I like Donkey Kong. It would only be fair to pit DK with someone else who is within his capabilities. We don't need stomp matches.

Long story short, there is no answer as to who is the strongest as most of the characters are inconsistent.

This is why we address specific incarnations.

It's like arguing about who's stronger, Superman or the Hulk, it can't be answered absolutely.

Of course it can.

I know I said I had no intentions of coming back into this argument, but I think it's worth noting that in Kid Icarus' canon, Palutena is FAAAARRRR from being the strongest God/Goddess. She pretty much admits on several occasions that there are stronger Gods/Goddesses than herself, and many of them actually appear in Uprising.

Considering that Medusa pretty much subdued Palutena alone in the original Kid Icarus, and Hades has proven that Medusa is a single angry punch away from vaporization at his hands at all time, I'd say that chances are that Palutena is EXTREMELY low in the hierarchy of Gods and Goddesses in Kid Icarus canon. It's just that, in comparison to most of the Smashers, Palutena is exceedingly powerful.

I tend to say she's above Pit by virtue of rank. Sure, that could be incorrect, since Samus takes orders from Adam, twice. The problem is, Palutena doesn't demonstrate a whole lot in Uprising.

Spoiler

Still, considering Pit fights and defeats Palutena while she's under the control of the Chaos Kin - something they bring up in her trailer, too, amusingly enough - I'd say that doesn't bode particularly well for Palutena when it comes to deciding who's strongest of the Smashers canonically.

That was probably a special circumstance.

Anyway, probably the best way to approach their canonical strength is to consider what they have available to them at any one time, and only consider equipment or other items they'd normally have available to them. For example, Samus would have a full gamut of abilities because they're exclusive to her Power Suit, but someone like, say, Mario, wouldn't be using Invincibility Stars because they're not something he traditionally has available to him without going out of his way to find and obtain one. Something they'd traditionally not be able to do in an all-out slobber knocker.

Paper Mario would be an exception, if we were using that particular incarnation, but that is not the Mario used in any of the SSB games.

-snip-

I'll get back to this later, right now I have other stuff to waste time on.

I did most of those calculations for Samus at FactPileTopia. (I'm Dryn/Mea quidem sententia. Awesome!) I even did the calcs for Link. At least in terms of strength. I also did calcs for Pit at the Topia.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

I tend to say she's above Pit by virtue of rank. Sure, that could be incorrect, since Samus takes orders from Adam, twice. The problem is, Palutena doesn't demonstrate a whole lot in Uprising.

I think Palutena's not as strong as she makes herself out to be. I'm more willing to call her bluff than any other character, honestly.

As I said before, Medusa manages to subdue and trap Palutena all by her lonesome. All the Three Sacred Treasures wind up being are enhancements for Pit's abilities, or granting him ones he should have naturally (like flight). The Three Sacred Treasures seem to have little trouble defeating Medusa (this occurs twice, mind you, and the second time they state that the Three Sacred Treasures are weakened with age and not as powerful), so that says a lot about where Palutena stands in the hierarchy of Gods/Goddesses in Kid Icarus canon, when the Three Sacred Treasures have enough power to defeat someone hypothetically Palutena's power level.

So I'd say yeah, Palutena holds rank over Pit theoretically, but their power differential isn't particularly different. If Pit has access to the Three Sacred Treasures, I'd say he stands a legitimate chance to defeat just about anyone on the Smash roster, but since it's not particularly fair to give everyone their most powerful crap, Palutena wins that match up.

Mostly what's left to decide after that is how thoroughly, if she can at all, Palutena beats Ganondorf, and we've at least got the #1 and #2 spots.

 

[Pyra]

Canonically, the strongest character in Smash is my mii, obviously representative of me.

My backstory is that I eventually become a super diety and blow everyone else out of the water.

Good luck arguing against that.

inb4 that's not canon of any plot/joke goes over head

 

[ChunkyBeef]

eventually

So your Mii would be about #30 or so.

 

[Pyra]

So your Mii would be about #30 or so.

Pretty much.

 

[AncientBaby]

I'm pretty sure that Reggie is the strongest. Why else would he tell Hungrybox and ZeRo that after training on the 3DS version, he would come back and kick their ***?