Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Sarki Soliloquy]

I'm going to attempt a set of guidelines needed to have a definitive matchup list. This is for the purpose of finding a strongest character featured in a Smash Bros. game via a tier list. This would be decided by some sort of judgement period to determine official character placement in the list. The criteria to where rankings fall on which tiers would likely have to be settled by number scale. Perferably, these would be displayed in the OP in order to have an officialized list. There's going to be much left to add for a final draft.

Once again, I will not be treating this as definite and neither should you.

1: The capabilities of all characters will be limited to their incarnations across the Smash Bros. series. Any conditions placed on these incarnations are strictly constrained by cannon material.

Ex.: Captain Falcon can use his Falcon Punch technique. But it's capability demonstrated in the F-Zero anime drastically differs from its uses in Smash nor the F-Zero games. Therefore, it's not plausible he could use it under canon terms.

2: Any properties, measurements, etc. placed on a character or their kits are evaluated and can be reasonably exploited to desired effects.

Ex.: Samus's Plasma Cannon manipulates plasma energy. The acknowledged characterstics attributed to that energy would apply. She may manipulate plasma through her given means in any hypothetical manner to suit whatever purpose.

3: Characters who assume incarnations separated by time, universe, etc. as their default in more than one game are limited to the capabilities attributed to all incarnations featured.

Ex.: Link is a character who has appeared in his Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess likenesses. Both Links are regarded by a single character identity. Therefore, anything possible by either Links applies to Smash Link.

It's logical that Link would have the Gale Boomerang available. It's also logical he could have the Golden Gauntlets available. But it would be illogical for him to use the Fire Rod because neither Links are able to obtain it.

4: Matchup wins are determined by the instances of incapacitation or death one character demonstrates against another. The amount of matchups in their favor are totalled against those of the rest of the roster for their official rank placement.

 

[nessokman]

Quick question regarding the Franklin Badge: since it reflects lightning (as well as whatever PK Beam Gamma is) would that mean it reflects plasma as well? If so, Ness and Lucas would have a bit of an advantage against Samus, Mega Man, and Plasma Kirby.

Franklin badge only reflects lightning, it was changed for smash to make it more relevant to the fights there because almost nobody uses lightning.

I'm going to attempt a set of guidelines needed to have a definitive matchup list. This is for the purpose of finding a strongest character featured in a Smash Bros. game via a tier list. This would be decided by some sort of judgement period to determine official character placement in the list. The criteria to where rankings fall on which tiers would likely have to be settled by number scale. Perferably, these would be displayed in the OP in order to have an officialized list. There's going to be much left to add for a final draft.

Once again, I will not be treating this as definite and neither should you.

1: The capabilities of all characters will be limited to their incarnations across the Smash Bros. series. Any conditions placed on these incarnations are strictly constrained by cannon material.

Ex.: Captain Falcon can use his Falcon Punch technique. But it's capability demonstrated in the F-Zero anime drastically differs from its uses in Smash nor the F-Zero games. Therefore, it's not plausible he could use it under canon terms.
2: Any properties, measurements, etc. placed on a character or their kits are evaluated and can be reasonably exploited to desired effects.

Ex.: Samus's Plasma Cannon manipulates plasma energy. The acknowledged characterstics attributed to that energy would apply. She may manipulate plasma through her given means in any hypothetical manner to suit whatever purpose.
3: Characters who assume incarnations separated by time, universe, etc. as their default in more than one game are limited to the capabilities attributed to all incarnations featured.

Ex.: Link is a character who has appeared in his Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess likenesses. Both Links are regarded by a single character identity. Therefore, anything possible by either Links applies to Smash Link.

It's logical that Link would have the Gale Boomerang available. It's also logical he could have the Golden Gauntlets available. But it would be illogical for him to use the Fire Rod because neither Links are able to obtain it.

4: Matchup wins are determined by the instances of incapacitation or death one character demonstrates against another. The amount of matchups in their favor are totalled against those of the rest of the roster for their official rank placement.

OK, I can make a randomized tournament style matchup for all characters inside smash, it will be done in a few minutes

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

I suggest not going with my criteria straightaway. There's a lot left to be decided and a structure needs to be settled.

I suppose whatever you're doing would be a good prototype.

 

[nessokman]

I suggest not going with my criteria straightaway. There's a lot left to be decided and a structure needs to be settled.

I suppose whatever you're doing would be a good prototype.

MMK, I'll work on it to test how it will work

EDIT: I got this http://challonge.com/8bsnsntg
I've been testing how it works, it seems it will work

 

[Crystanium]

Quick question regarding the Franklin Badge: since it reflects lightning (as well as whatever PK Beam Gamma is) would that mean it reflects plasma as well? If so, Ness and Lucas would have a bit of an advantage against Samus, Mega Man, and Plasma Kirby.

Plasma is not equal to lightning, though lightning is plasma. Plasma is electrically conductive, however. Still, do we ever see lightning strikes in the Mother series, or are these just forms of electricity produced by opponents? There is the description of the Franklin Badge that makes mention that Benjamin Franklin once wore it during his experiment with lightning, but it's admitted in the series that this is a legend.

I could possibly see the wave beam not working, since it is electricity (if we were using Samus from Metroid Prime), but we're not using that kind of wave beam, which I'd argue is some kind of radio wave weapon. I don't know what the PK Beam is supposed to be. Does this mean anything with the word "beam" in it doesn't work? The burden of proof would be on those supporting this.

Furthermore, if we assume it does work on plasma weapons, just how strong would the Franklin Badge be capable of deflecting these attacks. Samus, Mega Man, and Kirby can all charge their plasma weapons. Not only that, but even if these do not work, these characters should have other methods for defeating Ness and Lucas.

1: The capabilities of all characters will be limited to their incarnations across the Smash Bros. series. Any conditions placed on these incarnations are strictly constrained by cannon material.

Ex.: Captain Falcon can use his Falcon Punch technique. But it's capability demonstrated in the F-Zero anime drastically differs from its uses in Smash nor the F-Zero games. Therefore, it's not plausible he could use it under canon terms.

I know you aren't treating this as definitive and also stating that others should not, but I think it's a good idea to establish a reasonable set of rules either way. The example of Captain Falcon is that he presumably has the ability to use Falcon Punch, though this has not yet been demonstrated. Regardless, characters who have not demonstrated previous attacks and were first observed in the SSB series seem to end up with at least something.

To use an example, Samus' Zero Suit is named as such because this is what it was referred to as in the SSB series. Her Paralyzer was also given such name, though originally it was not called that in Metroid: Zero Mission. Captain Falcon may or may not be able to use Falcon Punch. We don't know for certain. It hasn't been observed. What we do know is that in F-Zero GX, after completing Story Mode, the song makes mention of the Falcon Punch.

The anime will be ignored, simply because it isn't the original source canon, which all other media rests on that foundation. Any contradiction will be disregarded, but more importantly, the original source canon takes primacy to any other type of media. This means that if a third-party character appears in the SSB series, but originally came from a comic, the comic would take priority, not the game.

One final thing about the anime. A lot of people mistaken the Falcon Punch and the huge explosion that follows after to be one and the same. This is post hoc ergo propter hoc. Another way of putting this is correlation does not imply causation.

2: Any properties, measurements, etc. placed on a character or their kits are evaluated and can be reasonably exploited to desired effects.

Ex.: Samus's Plasma Cannon manipulates plasma energy. The acknowledged characterstics attributed to that energy would apply. She may manipulate plasma through her given means in any hypothetical manner to suit whatever purpose.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Please clarify.

3: Characters who assume incarnations separated by time, universe, etc. as their default in more than one game are limited to the capabilities attributed to all incarnations featured.

Ex.: Link is a character who has appeared in his Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess likenesses. Both Links are regarded by a single character identity. Therefore, anything possible by either Links applies to Smash Link.

It's logical that Link would have the Gale Boomerang available. It's also logical he could have the Golden Gauntlets available. But it would be illogical for him to use the Fire Rod because neither Links are able to obtain it.

This should not be permitted, however, since Link in OoT is different from Link in TP and Link in SS. It would be fine if you said something like Link in OoT is the same Link as in MM, though we'd still have to restrict items to one or the other, since after the events of OoT, Link no longer has most of the equipment in MM that he had in OoT. Any composite form, i.e., two or more incarnations combined as one is non-canon.

The only time this can be reasonable is if and only if that selfsame character has not for any reason lost any previous equipment, which crossed over into the next installment. A perfect example would be Samus in Super Metroid following up to Metroid: Other M. In fact, this would mean that from Metroid: Zero Mission all the way up to Metroid: Other M, Samus has a lot of upgrades at her disposal. We could only blame the trope, bag of spillings, for her loss of upgrades.

I personally try to avoid composite forms, however, and only permit what a character has learned. So while we never see Samus ever use Crystal Flash after Super Metroid, it does not follow that she cannot use it ever again, unless she's suffered from amnesia or something made her forget. If we're going to use the characters based on their appearance in the SSB series, then we should go with the current incarnation to fall back on.

While some might say this would mean we should use Link from Skyward Sword, this would only be true as far as game release, but not in-game chronology. It seems that Link from Twilight Princess would actually be the preferred choice with regard to chronological order, since SS > OoT > TP. And since I'm not sure which incarnation is used for Mega Man, the standard, at least where I'm from, is to use the current incarnation. So, Mega Man 10, I guess.

4: Matchup wins are determined by the instances of incapacitation or death one character demonstrates against another. The amount of matchups in their favor are totalled against those of the rest of the roster for their official rank placement.

If this is anything like FactPile, I agree.

nessokman, that looks cool. I'm going to try to familiarize myself with that.

 

[Kamiko]

The crater with other craters would need to be at least several kilometers. I think the Collins crater is supposed to be the smallest and is 2.4 km. (1.49 mi.) in diameter. I'm just eyeing it. I'll estimate each hemisphere to be three of those craters and the center to be two, giving us 19.2 km. (11.93 mi.). In order to find the distance, I needed to come up with the angular diameter and my estimated diameter of the Lunar Sanctum.

I went with 50 degrees for the angular diameter, which gave me 20.59 km. (12.79 mi.) for the distance. The time it took for Pit to fly there was 31.360 seconds.

20.59 km. / 31.360 s = 0.69 km/s, or 2,478 km/h (1,539 mi/h), or Mach 2. So, even with this guess, I get close to the previous calculations that were also supersonic speeds. A coincidence or consistency?

That crater is tiny with Pit right inside it. Why are you trying to compare it the moon? I can't agree with those numbers at all.

It lines up with all of our current knowledge of time space. Calculations lean in favor of it.

What calculations? Based on what?

You can NEVER make assumptions. Palms do feed off the life force of their wielder, but it never says anything about other weapons. All weapons were designed by the god of the forge, Dyntos.Palutena says that palms are different being the only one to do such a thing.

Also, palutena says that the "Arm" category, even though they are huge, don't cut down on Pit's agility.

You don't KNOW that, don't make assumptions...... We'll probably never really know for sure.Pit asks how the "Orbitar" weapon class can hover around his head, had palutena actually answered, we would probably have a better understanding of their power, but she ignored it.

I'm not assuming anything, I'm applying logic to find the possible ways it could work. Assuming would be deciding it works one specific way just because. Like how you're assuming that the weapons don't consume any kind of resource just because the game doesn't show it.

By the way, it's come to my attention that the game plays around with the fourth wall quite frequently, making it even clearer that the game game doesn't take this kind of thing seriously.

It is death star size........It looks smaller because you are closer to pit and further away from it.

Maybe it's supposed to be Death Star sized, but in-game, it's external model is clearly not. You fly right up to it. Unless you think the Death Star is small.

Those craters aren't on the surface of the sanctum though, they are in a chamber of it that is designed to look like the moon.I can tell you haven't played through it (Or beaten it all on 9.0 )

Those craters are INSIDE the sanctum, so of course they aren't going to be very big. There are massive chambers inside. Look at the parts where you use grind rails to get around the giant chamber. It goes as far as the eye can see, and even Pit mentiones how big it is on the inside.

I've already said I haven't played it, but I've watched a playthrough of the whole chapter too many times over. How are those craters not on the surface? Of course I'm aware of how much bigger it is on the inside, I already pointed that out myself. The game's obviously not to scale.

 

[NoiseHERO]

I really still wanna get that kid icarus game, it's like starfox meets zelda if zelda was made by the guys who made kingdom hearts battle sytem, mixed with a 3D megaman mixed with starfox right? Or just that one game that was on n64 and wii that I can't remember the name of but it had an assist trophy in brawl. edit: sin and punishment.

So as far as I know it's half of my favorite games all at once.

 

[Crystanium]

That crater is tiny with Pit right inside it. Why are you trying to compare it the moon? I can't agree with those numbers at all.

It's not tiny. You are underestimating that. The exact diameter is unknown, but to even entertain that it's not even a kilometer long is unacceptable.

Your question is also loaded. I made it clear there are different sized moons, so I'm not even trying to compare it to the Moon. Strangly, however, I still ended up with a range where Pit once again is placed in supersonic speed. This would be the third test I've done in terms of Pit's flight speed. Coincidence or consistency, I leave that judgment up to the audience.

 

[Kamiko]

It's not tiny. You are underestimating that. The exact diameter is unknown, but to even entertain that it's not even a kilometer long is unacceptable.

Your question is also loaded. I made it clear there are different sized moons, so I'm not even trying to compare it to the Moon. Strangly, however, I still ended up with a range where Pit once again is placed in supersonic speed. This would be the third test I've done in terms of Pit's flight speed. Coincidence or consistency, I leave that judgment up to the audience.

Well I don't know what "Colin's Crater" is, so I thought you we're talking about our moon since it's covered in craters. Just tell me, HOW are you coming to the conclusion that the crater I referenced is that large, even when I showed pictures comparing it to Pit and an enemy standing inside it?

 

[nessokman]

I'm not assuming anything, I'm applying logic to find the possible ways it could work. Assuming would be deciding it works one specific way just because. Like how you're assuming that the weapons don't consume any kind of resource just because the game doesn't show it.

I am not assuming, the game only points to palms requiring fuel, so that's what I'm going to keep rolling with.

By the way, it's come to my attention that the game plays around with the fourth wall quite frequently, making it even clearer that the game game doesn't take this kind of thing seriously.

It doesn't take it seriously. It's what gives the game charm.

 

[alex6309]

This is

 

[Rabbattack]

Link
I'm just going to say we're using Link from Skyward Sword, since it seems that's supposed to be the incarnation for SSB4. I think the only other thing for this incarnation is that Link has the Gale Boomerang in SSB4, but whatever. So, Link is capable of moving tree trunks. I'll assume Link is 170 cm. tall (5 ft. 7 in.). Eyeing the trunk, it is two Links long and one Link wide. The trunk is also the shape of a cylinder, so I'll be using a cylindrical formula to find the volume.

V = pi r^2 h
V = pi (85 cm)^2 (340 cm.)
V = pi (7,225 cm.)(340 cm.)
V = pi (2,456,500 cm.)
V = 7,717,322.3535433270902835 cm^3

We don't know what type of wood this is, so that's the only problem. Fortunately, we can find different types of wood densities. I suppose the best thing to try is looking for what trees resemble the ones in the game. I'd say perhaps an oak tree, which has the density of 0.75 g/cm^3.

7,717,322 cm^3 * 0.75 g/cm^3 = 5,787,992 g.

5,787,992 / 1,000 = 5,788 kg.

5,788 kg. / 1,000 = 5.79 metric tons.

I cannot find a video where Link lifts up a rock. It's annoying me. Images aren't showing up, either. I could have sworn I calculated this before.

SSB4 Link is just a touched up version of TP Link.

We have to use every incarnation of Zelda characters that have appeared in smash, but one Link at a time is okay. Link and Zelda from brawl are not the same as their melee incarnations.

TP Link right here.

 

[Kamiko]

I am not assuming, the game only points to palms requiring fuel, so that's what I'm going to keep rolling with.

Unless the game specifically says that the rest have infinite energy, then you're assuming that they would. You should keep in mind that it's normal for games to let you do thngs infinitely. Imagine if it requred you to eat and sleep to continue playing. Sure, some people would find that interesting, but for most it would be tedious and annoying. That's why the game doesn't have ammo or an energy meter.

It doesn't take it seriously. It's what gives the game charm.

Still supports my main point though.

 

[Crystanium]

Well I don't know what "Colin's Crater" is, so I thought you we're talking about our moon since it's covered in craters. Just tell me, HOW are you coming to the conclusion that the crater I referenced is that large, even when I showed pictures comparing it to Pit and an enemy standing inside it?

Fair enough. I did use that crater from the Moon because from what I found, it was the smallest. You're downplaying the size of the Lunar Sanctum, however. Pit is close to the screen. Perspective at a certain point makes the Lunar Sanctum not appear large, even though I can't say Pit even fully flies around it. I could be wrong. I calculated the diameter to be 19.2 km. in diameter.

If I assumed the crater was only 1 km. in diameter and added those together, though, that'd give me a total of 8 km. in diameter. I suppose at that point it'd be comparable to this.

 

[IvanQuote]

Plasma is not equal to lightning, though lightning is plasma. Plasma is electrically conductive, however. Still, do we ever see lightning strikes in the Mother series, or are these just forms of electricity produced by opponents? There is the description of the Franklin Badge that makes mention that Benjamin Franklin once wore it during his experiment with lightning, but it's admitted in the series that this is a legend.

I could possibly see the wave beam not working, since it is electricity (if we were using Samus from Metroid Prime), but we're not using that kind of wave beam, which I'd argue is some kind of radio wave weapon. I don't know what the PK Beam is supposed to be. Does this mean anything with the word "beam" in it doesn't work? The burden of proof would be on those supporting this.

Furthermore, if we assume it does work on plasma weapons, just how strong would the Franklin Badge be capable of deflecting these attacks. Samus, Mega Man, and Kirby can all charge their plasma weapons. Not only that, but even if these do not work, these characters should have other methods for defeating Ness and Lucas.

PK Beam literally appeared only in Mother 1 and never appeared in any other game. There is also no physical description of it in game or otherwise. The Gamma version causes instant death, and the Franklin badge only reflects that one move in the first game. In all other games it reflects any lightning attack for full damage. No matter how strong it is. Case in point, the Masked Man in Mother 3 has a lightning attack that will literally take out your entire party in one shot. With the Franklin Badge, the attack is automatically returned to sender, keeping Lucas unharmed and just about crippling the Masked Man.

Also while the characters mentioned do have other methods of fighting Ness, they wouldn't know that he has such an item, and if they do happen to connect an attack that is reflected, they will be badly damaged before they can react (Elec Beam is able to take out a third of Mega Man's health for example). Though admittedly, Samus may have a leg up with her scanning system and plan ahead to use other attacks instead.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

I know you aren't treating this as definitive and also stating that others should not, but I think it's a good idea to establish a reasonable set of rules either way. The example of Captain Falcon is that he presumably has the ability to use Falcon Punch, though this has not yet been demonstrated. Regardless, characters who have not demonstrated previous attacks and were first observed in the SSB series seem to end up with at least something.

To use an example, Samus' Zero Suit is named as such because this is what it was referred to as in the SSB series. Her Paralyzer was also given such name, though originally it was not called that in Metroid: Zero Mission. Captain Falcon may or may not be able to use Falcon Punch. We don't know for certain. It hasn't been observed. What we do know is that in F-Zero GX, after completing Story Mode, the song makes mention of the Falcon Punch.

The anime will be ignored, simply because it isn't the original source canon, which all other media rests on that foundation. Any contradiction will be disregarded, but more importantly, the original source canon takes primacy to any other type of media. This means that if a third-party character appears in the SSB series, but originally came from a comic, the comic would take priority, not the game.

One final thing about the anime. A lot of people mistaken the Falcon Punch and the huge explosion that follows after to be one and the same. This is post hoc ergo propter hoc. Another way of putting this is correlation does not imply causation.

Bad example on my part. The way I worded it basically asserts that canon rule would be in effect.

I think its safe to say that any abilites demonstrated by any character that were fabricated for the game should only add on to the capability of their incarnation. Captain Falcon's pyromancy techniques are not used in any F-Zero game, to my understanding. So whatever we've seen of them in Smash would be considered within capability of his current canon incarnation.

Another thing, because anime would not count as original source material, things such as Pikachu's Electro Ball would be hard to cusp what they could actually be like in hypothetical battle. These predicaments may to for better or worse for some characters.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Please clarify.

****tiest example I used. I really am lost on how to conclude that.

Basically, I was trying to explain the laws of energy and matter in an extremely wishy-washy way. Disregard it.

This should not be permitted, however, since Link in OoT is different from Link in TP and Link in SS. It would be fine if you said something like Link in OoT is the same Link as in MM, though we'd still have to restrict items to one or the other, since after the events of OoT, Link no longer has most of the equipment in MM that he had in OoT. Any composite form, i.e., two or more incarnations combined as one is non-canon.

The only time this can be reasonable is if and only if that selfsame character has not for any reason lost any previous equipment, which crossed over into the next installment. A perfect example would be Samus in Super Metroid following up to Metroid: Other M. In fact, this would mean that from Metroid: Zero Mission all the way up to Metroid: Other M, Samus has a lot of upgrades at her disposal. We could only blame the trope, bag of spillings, for her loss of upgrades.

I personally try to avoid composite forms, however, and only permit what a character has learned. So while we never see Samus ever use Crystal Flash after Super Metroid, it does not follow that she cannot use it ever again, unless she's suffered from amnesia or something made her forget. If we're going to use the characters based on their appearance in the SSB series, then we should go with the current incarnation to fall back on.

While some might say this would mean we should use Link from Skyward Sword, this would only be true as far as game release, but not in-game chronology. It seems that Link from Twilight Princess would actually be the preferred choice with regard to chronological order, since SS > OoT > TP. And since I'm not sure which incarnation is used for Mega Man, the standard, at least where I'm from, is to use the current incarnation. So, Mega Man 10, I guess.

I'm probably going to get flogged upon the keister for referencing this show, but in DEATH BATTLE!, Wiz & Boomstick determined what tools would give Link his most accurate representation by narrowing it down to the ones most often at his disposal and to provide certain counters against Cloud. The problem is that they use a composite Link similar to what I previously described.

A possible solution to this would be counting an OoT Link and TP Link as separate characters could discern them. Same for Zelda and Ganon(dorf). That would warrant enough variability in equipment, skills, feats, etc. to judge them individually. I also see all sorts of plot points and situations from all over the Zelda timeline being brought up around here to serve cases, which makes a mess (i.e., Link showing reliance on Zelda/divine materials to defeat Ganondorf, but LoZ Link shows he could defeat Ganon without them)

On the other hand, we generally regard each incarnation contributing to a whole identity, and they are likely going to rank extremely close to one another in official rankings. So it could end up being a redundant measure.

In the case of Samus, her Crystal Flash would be viable because she generally has the capability to perform it or has used it before. The timeline placement through Other M safeguards that too.

For Mega Man, most of his attacks in Smash 4 take from Mega Man 1-3 if I'm not mistaken. We're working with Mega Man Classic here, so whatever is available to him through MM 1-10 is viable. I won't rule out non-chronological games such as The Power Battle out either.

TL;DR Character incarnation(s) is important to decide because it determines what they are allowed to take from their universes.

If this is anything like FactPile, I agree.

nessokman, that looks cool. I'm going to try to familiarize myself with that.

What's this FactPile you speak of? I'm quite interesed in how you immerse yourself with your equations and scientific knowledge.

The problem I see with a tournament structure is that it rules out all possible character matchups. Moreover, seeding brackets would only have characters fight a limited number of characters and more often that not have their chances of being tested cut down because they lost.

I guess you can describe my proposed model as a "voting period" of sorts where we conclude a characters' matchup rankings by concise debate. This allows for all characters to have a shot at one another. Even the obvious ones would be quick to relatively quick to decide.

 

[nessokman]

PK Beam literally appeared only in Mother 1 and never appeared in any other game. There is also no physical description of it in game or otherwise. The Gamma version causes instant death, and the Franklin badge only reflects that one move in the first game. In all other games it reflects any lightning attack for full damage. No matter how strong it is. Case in point, the Masked Man in Mother 3 has a lightning attack that will literally take out your entire party in one shot. With the Franklin Badge, the attack is automatically returned to sender, keeping Lucas unharmed and just about crippling the Masked Man.

Also while the characters mentioned do have other methods of fighting Ness, they wouldn't know that he has such an item, and if they do happen to connect an attack that is reflected, they will be badly damaged before they can react (Elec Beam is able to take out a third of Mega Man's health for example). Though admittedly, Samus may have a leg up with her scanning system and plan ahead to use other attacks instead.

samus doesn't use electricity

 

[Rabbattack]

So are we going to list the characters again or what?

 

[nessokman]

So are we going to list the characters again or what?

I thought the most efficient thing info would be to randomize a tournament matchup with everyone and do debates on strength of the pair until we find the stronger.

 

[Rabbattack]

I thought the most efficient thing info would be to randomize a tournament matchup with everyone and do debates on strength of the pair until we find the stronger.

If you randomize it then it won't be anywhere near accurate. We should have a list of every characters wins and losses. Then we rank the winner based on who has the most wins. After we can debate to change people's placement.

 

[nessokman]

If you randomize it then it won't be anywhere near accurate. We should have a list of every characters wins and losses. Then we rank the winner based on who has the most wins. After we can debate to change people's placement.

I just thought randomly pairing everyone and doing a tournament style showdown eAch day until we get 1 winner is the way to go. It's how smash players usually decide who the best people are.

 

[Kamiko]

Fair enough. I did use that crater from the Moon because from what I found, it was the smallest. You're downplaying the size of the Lunar Sanctum, however. Pit is close to the screen. Perspective at a certain point makes the Lunar Sanctum not appear large, even though I can't say Pit even fully flies around it. I could be wrong. I calculated the diameter to be 19.2 km. in diameter.

If I assumed the crater was only 1 km. in diameter and added those together, though, that'd give me a total of 8 km. in diameter. I suppose at that point it'd be comparable to this.

Perspective is only a problem from a distance though. I'm looking at Pit and the laser-flower thing who's name escapes me both touching the bottom of that crater, and I can confidently say my house might have some trouble fitting inside it. I'm fairly certain my house isn't a kilometer in length.

If you randomize it then it won't be anywhere near accurate. We should have a list of every characters wins and losses. Then we rank the winner based on who has the most wins. After we can debate to change people's placement.

As tedious as this would be, I agree. It's the only way to do it thoroughly.

I just thought randomly pairing everyone and doing a tournament style showdown eAch day until we get 1 winner is the way to go. It's how smash players usually decide who the best people are.

The problem with that method is when you have a character has only one bad matchup, but wins in all other situations. They'd clearly be the best overall, but if they face that one problem character in the first round we'd never know it and they'd be deemed one of the worst characters.

 

[nessokman]

Perspective is only a problem from a distance though. I'm looking at Pit and the laser-flower thing who's name escapes me both touching the bottom of that crater, and I can confidently say my house might have some trouble fitting inside it. I'm fairly certain my house isn't a kilometer in length.



As tedious as this would be, I agree. It's the only way to do it thoroughly.



The problem with that method is when you have a character has only one bad matchup, but wins in all other situations. They'd clearly be the best overall, but if they face that one problem character in the first round we'd never know it and they'd be deemed one of the worst characters.

Then I don't see a way to do matchups for each character to the other 50 in the series without taking so very long

 

[JabbatheHutt]

Going by this its WARIO:

 

[Kamiko]

Then I don't see a way to do matchups for each character to the other 50 in the series without taking so very long

You're right, it would definitely take a long time. But that's what it takes to be accurate about it.

 

[4cast]

Conically it should be Ike he Destroyed the creator of his World! in his game! Wario never does this in his games although Wii Fit Trainer could technically be considered Extremely powerful since she is in the best shape of her life and does Yoga Teachings and Stretching every Day
EDIT : We should not count DK out either since he punched the moon down from space into the earth so that's pretty powerful I my eyes

 

[nessokman]

You're right, it would definitely take a long time. But that's what it takes to be accurate about it.

If it is judging by what they can use in smash, this thread shouldn't even start until the game comes out. If I recall, sakurai said all characters have 12 specials to choose from. Characters like Pit woule have a lot of other things to use.

 

[Kamiko]

If it is judging by what they can use in smash, this thread shouldn't even start until the game comes out. If I recall, sakurai said all characters have 12 specials to choose from. Characters like Pit woule have a lot of other things to use.

That's true, in fact if we decide to use only their Smash incarnations then we might as well just wait until a tier list is greed upon and just crown whoever's at the top. But that would make this whole thread even more pointless than it already is.

 

[nessokman]

That's true, in fact if we decide to use only their Smash incarnations then we might as well just wait until a tier list is greed upon and just crown whoever's at the top. But that would make this whole thread even more pointless than it already is.

Teirs based on strength in smash and how powerful they really are happen to be two different things.

 

[Kamiko]

Teirs based on strength in smash and how powerful they really are happen to be two different things.

If we use their actual capabilities then that means we're not using their Smash selves. Which means it doesn't matter what they can do in the upcoming game.

 

[4cast]

umm.... what was I going to say again?

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

Their Smash selves should crystalize what they are able to bring and perform. Going beyond the limited bounds within Smash to canon will determine how much power the would have against the rest without Smash's disbelief-suspending win scenarios.

 

[4cast]

That's not accurate since characters have moves created For Smash Therefore in the sake of fairness we can judge from Smash Selves alone instead we have to look at what they did in there games and they then carried over because if we used your logic Then Luigi would be up high because of Up-B when that was created for Smash Bros so we need to think a logical take to get around what looks like a dead end
EDIT : I would delate my post 2 posts up from this one but I don't know how and it looks weird now

 

[B!squick]

I think Ganon and Bowser in a canonical fight would be akin to Madara verse The First Hokage in Naruto. I'd rank MewTwo just beneath them both because for all of his power, you can enslave him with a Master ball. Or even a Poke ball. MewTwo, like all Pokemon, is more weapon than... how he was portrayed in the movies. Which makes ranking him kinda difficult.

That said, considering only game canon, Ganon and Bowser are tops like I said, no question.

 

[josh bones]

Using nessokman's tourney thing, marth vs zss, marth wins because he can only be hit by ceartin things or something can someonne look into that? do more matchupps later

 

[ShadowLink84]

It's not about swinging harder, it's about swinging faster. The Master Sword doesn't gain any mass. It could be a game limitation, or Link isn't swinging faster than he could. The fact Link doesn't throw bombs farther does support that this is a game limitation, though.

It is a game limitation obviously, and second, if you are swinging a sword harder, you are creating a greater amount of force to move the object, causing it to move faster.
There is absolutely no need to try and bring physics into things because its just making things convoluted and non-concise.
If any individual is hurling massive obelisks, this suggests he is also capable of swinging the blade more powerfully, more quickly.

There is also a greater amount pushing force being created which is also the reason the blade is moving more quickly.
Its just...simple logic.

 

[Kamiko]

Didn't you know? Logic is forbidden on the internet.

 

[Gameboi834]

I suggest we each research a character or two as in-depth as possible, list their strengths, weaknesses, armor, weapons, etc. and then see who would win a Death Battle against one another.

 

[Rabbattack]

Then I don't see a way to do matchups for each character to the other 50 in the series without taking so very long

Who ever wants to do the task can do it in their spare time.

Canonically means we have to use games other than smash if available. Characters that really only have an appearance in smash have to use smash as their canon.

There have been 54 characters in smash so far, including both incarnations of adult Link and Zelda. Excluding Squirtle and Ivysaur because they are part of Pokemon Trainer.

How about we draft a list of wins and losses for one character every week and compare/contrast them between members. This way we can just go slowly and have a peaceful time.

 

[liets]

To make things slightly easier by adding something else more solid, I was thinking of charting characters based on physical muscular strength alone. Basically their ability to push, pull, punch, kick, and pimp-smack things. I really would like help with characters from the series of Fire Emblem, Earthbound/Mother, and Kid Icarus. Also, there are certain instances in other games that I'm not aware of, like what's the heaviest piece of furniture in Animal Crossing? Any others you'd like me to know are appreciated as well. And lastly, your opinions on close calls (Mario/Luigi) are great too.