Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[ChillySundance]

TM moves are considered part of a Pokemon's overall moveset, and are readily accessible. Especially for a super-intelligent and sentient being like Mewtwo who is more than capable of finding TM's and teaching itself these moves as it pleases.

You're denying a lot of stuff on the grounds of it not making physical sense and/or being a game mechanic, or the Pokedex being inconsistent, it all just seems like excuses to me. This is the information we're given via the game's canon and I like to take it literally unless given reason to do otherwise.

I'd say the speed stat overall is a combination of reaction time and possible movement speed. Scolipede is faster than Latios, and is a giant fat centipede. There's no way that's going to be running faster than something capable of mach speed flight.

Even if the speed stat only affects reaction times, 130 is in the 'abnormally fast' category for any Pokemon. What is Samus in relation to that? I've always viewed her as a medium-speed character unless she's using the sprint boots, which have a clear ramp-up time and limited application.

Just because it's a game mechanic, doesn't mean that can't be a real-world mechanic in that game's universe or setting. What it comes down to is how you'll apply that information when comparing it to a character from outside that setting (in this case, Samus.)

Also, Mewtwo has proven its ability to take attacks way more powerful than anything Samus can generate. Pokemon in general are capable of feats that far exceed anything standard to the Metroid universe, as silly as that may be.

As for Psyshock, it's been used several times in the anime. All of those times, it involved forming psychic projectiles that detonated with concussive force. The in-game animation in Pokemon X and Y shows your Pokemon creating multiple lumps of psychic energy and then slamming them into the target. Textual evidence is not necessary and neither is over complicating things that are well-known by Pokemon fans at this stage.

 

[Rabbattack]

We have to decide which pokemon Pokemon Trainer can use. If he is just the World of Trophies version of Red than he should only use Kanto pokemon, including evolved pokemon whose past stage evolves in locations that Red has been to. If we base him off of Brawl than he only gets Squirtle, Charizard, and Ivysaur. We have two choices Brawl or Red, neither have access to every known pokemon to exist.

The Mii Fighters were just announced, should we base them off of their respective games or their smash appearance. Mii Fighters could just mean smash and not the everday sport, music, party creatures.

 

[Crystanium]

TM moves are considered part of a Pokemon's overall moveset, and are readily accessible.

Prove it because as far as I'm aware, TMs are only taught to Pokemon who have trainers, whether taught to them or if they're born with it. Mewtwo doesn't possess TMs it can be taught.

You're denying a lot of stuff on the grounds of it not making physical sense and/or being a game mechanic, or the Pokedex being inconsistent, it all just seems like excuses to me. This is the information we're given via the game's canon and I like to take it literally unless given reason to do otherwise.

Well, see, being skeptical means I'm not going to accept things that lack evidence. Hearsay is not evidence. Game mechanics can be used, provided they can be translated into realism. Link's heart containers, for example, are a game mechanic. What can be extracted is the information that they are his "life force", meaning that consistently throughout the series and the way Link's heart containers refill can be understood as vigor. If you call what I'm doing an excuse, then so what?

I'd say the speed stat overall is a combination of reaction time and possible movement speed. Scolipede is faster than Latios, and is a giant fat centipede. There's no way that's going to be running faster than something capable of mach speed flight.

Reader says it's combat speed, which it may or may not be. Quick Attack, at least from the earlier Pokemon games, allows the user to go first, regardless of whether or not the opponent has a higher speed stat. Regardless, if it's a combination of combat and movement speed, great, but a character like Pidgeot should be attacking first every time, since it can reach Mach 2. If you want to prove this is reaction time, go ahead, but reaction time is the opposite of speed. It's an indicator of time and the lower it is, the better, which is in contrast to higher speed being better.

Even if the speed stat only affects reaction times, 130 is in the 'abnormally fast' category for any Pokemon. What is Samus in relation to that? I've always viewed her as a medium-speed character unless she's using the sprint boots, which have a clear ramp-up time and limited application.

I've already calculated Samus' reaction time. Facing off against Serris, who travels at supersonic speeds, given Samus a distance of 10 m. (32.8 ft.), that'd mean Samus' reaction time needs to be less than 24 milliseconds. But another calculation I've done gives her a reaction time of as low as 1 millisecond.

Samus is also capable of traveling at supersonic speeds with her speed booster, meaning that the low-end would be 411.6 m/s (1,351.68 ft/s). The time it takes for her to start up the speed booster in Super Metroid is about 1 second, 2 seconds in both Metroid Fusion and Metroid: Zero Mission, and 5 seconds in Metroid: Other M, meaning that this is just a game mechanic.

Assuming we went with an average time of 2.5 seconds, that'd mean in 1 second, she will be traveling 164.64 m/s/s (368.64 mi/h/s)

Just because it's a game mechanic, doesn't mean that can't be a real-world mechanic in that game's universe or setting. What it comes down to is how you'll apply that information when comparing it to a character from outside that setting (in this case, Samus.)

That's true, but if the game mechanic cannot be extracted to the real-world, it serves no purpose.

Also, Mewtwo has proven its ability to take attacks way more powerful than anything Samus can generate. Pokemon in general are capable of feats that far exceed anything standard to the Metroid universe, as silly as that may be.

Then you can prove this.

As for Psyshock, it's been used several times in the anime. All of those times, it involved forming psychic projectiles that detonated with concussive force. The in-game animation in Pokemon X and Y shows your Pokemon creating multiple lumps of psychic energy and then slamming them into the target. Textual evidence is not necessary and neither is over complicating things that are well-known by Pokemon fans at this stage.

I don't accept the anime because it's not the original source canon, just like how I don't accept the Metroid manga, or the Zelda manga, or the Donkey Kong Country show, &c. I also wasn't saying textual evidence was necessarily necessary. I was saying visual evidence has not demonstrated what the textual evidence is saying, especially when the textual evidence ends up saying things like, "It is said", or "Some believe". That's hearsay. Hearsay is not evidence and wouldn't stand in the court of law. Why should it be acceptable here?

 

[Unbias]

Pokemon Trainers can send out all six if they wanted to. They just don't because of the rules. The most for a battle following these rules would be three. Even with a member of an evil organization, it just comes down to game mechanics.

Need proof of that claim, if they can't break the rules even though they're basically thugs who steal pokemon then they won't break the rules when fighting Sonic. Grasping at straws cause you know Sonic beats any pokemon 1 v 1. Lets stick to what the game shows not this pokemon trainer sending all 6 pokemon at once fanfiction its annoying me.

 

[e105beta]

Just for clarification, why are we assuming that the Pokemon Trainer in Smash has every single Pokemon imaginable? All he's confirmed to have is Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard. Anything else is just speculation.

 

[Rabbattack]

Need proof of that claim, if they can't break the rules even though they're basically thugs who steal pokemon then they won't break the rules when fighting Sonic. Grasping at straws cause you know Sonic beats any pokemon 1 v 1. Lets stick to what the game shows not this pokemon trainer sending all 6 pokemon at once fanfiction its annoying me.

Are they physically incapable of pushing all six buttons on their pokeballs? It's not a fanfiction. Pokemon trainers can set out three in triple battles. Blah blah blah.

Dryn can you please use your magical brain to explain why I'm most definitely right.

 

[Unbias]

Are they physically incapable of pushing all six buttons on their pokeballs? It's not a fanfiction. Pokemon trainers can set out three in triple battles. Blah blah blah.

Dryn can you please use your magical brain to explain why I'm most definitely right.

They only send out three against a trainer who's using three. I knew you were going to throw this at me, its fanfiction mate if they have yet to throw all 6 pokemon at one wild pokemon in game then its mere fanfiction made by fans in order for the pokemon trainer to defeat a powerful foe. If the newest pokemon game allows all 6 to jump one pokemon then you're right.

So your asking another member to back you up cause your only argument holds no weight. Not cool man. Super Sonic > Pokemon trainer(no matter what legendary uber tier he has). If you reply again trying to convey this 6 pokeball thing with no in-game proof then i'll ignore it.

 

[Crystanium]

The thing about using six Pokemon all at once is not at all outside the realm of possibilities. In the original games, you could only bring out one Pokemon. This later changed to two and now I think it's up to three. Under the condition Pokemon trainer is in when at a gym or when facing off against other Pokemon trainers, the condition is that both trainers are allowed to bring out up to three Pokemon.

Since Pokemon trainer is not battling other trainers, these conditions are no longer active, meaning the Pokemon trainer can bring out all six Pokemon at once. Game mechanics are restricted to game play, not real-world events. Unless we're going to say Ness and Lucas get a rolling HP meter. Keep that crap out of here.

On a side note, since Pikachu is free from any trainer, it's its own person. Here's a thought. Thunder is really nothing more than a bolt of lightning. Lightning travels at 224,000 mi/h (62 mi/s; Mach 292), only 0.033% the speed of light. Hey, that's still fast. It can also produce over 100 million volts.

 

[AzureFlame4]

I'd have to say Ike is canonically the strongest because he has an entire band of mercenaries at his disposal and has defeated a Goddess before. The only two I think could possibly beat him are Rosalina and Palutena, but mostly Palutena.

 

[Crystanium]

I'd have to say Ike is canonically the strongest because he has an entire band of mercenaries at his disposal and has defeated a Goddess before. The only two I think could possibly beat him are Rosalina and Palutena, but mostly Palutena.

Ike has to fight on his own, else everyone else gets an army from their universes. Why should defeating a goddess put Ike high up on the tier list? Do you have anything concerning Ike's feats? That would be useful. Maybe I'll be able to calculate a few things for him.

 

[NoiseHERO]

/Sucks teeth

Probably Jiggly puff

 

[AzureFlame4]

Ike has to fight on his own, else everyone else gets an army from their universes. Why should defeating a goddess put Ike high up on the tier list? Do you have anything concerning Ike's feats? That would be useful. Maybe I'll be able to calculate a few things for him.

Well she was basically the Goddess of Order who had already turned most of the world to stone and only the strongest warriors were left untouched by her power. She was supposed to be pretty much undefeatable, but thanks to a blessing he received from the Goddess of Chaos he was able to do the deed. Before that though, he had defeated many warriors that were considered undefeatable, most notably the Black Knight and the Mad King. Also, though I can't remember the name, he uses a technique in the game alongside Aether that allowed him to heal himself by taking energy away from his opponents.

Admittedly a lot of his power comes from blessings from Goddesses, but considering he uses Ragnell in Smash, it's fair to say those blessings are in play and he has every bit of power he had at the end of Radiant Dawn.

 

[Crystanium]

/Sucks teeth

Probably Jiggly puff

I figured it out. Jigglypuff puts her opponents to sleep because she's a terrible singer. Actually, one description says Jigglypuff can match its wavelength to make someone drowsy. I don't know how this works. What, binaural beats? Another says it makes sound waves match the brain waves of someone who is in a deep sleep. As far as I'm aware, there isn't a delta wave for sound waves.

From other descriptions, it looks like Jigglypuff just hypnotizes its opponents, but as I said about Ness' Hypnosis, hypnotism doesn't work on those who don't believe in it, nor does it work on those who don't wish to be hypnotized. The Pokedex from Sapphire even suggests it's possible to avoid falling asleep. (I'm using the Pokedex? Well, yeah. It's consistent with what's observed.)

It's cool that Hyper Voice uses sound waves as an attack. I wonder if it's dependent on decibels (dB). At 200 dB, I've read that this is when a human can die from sound. As for Disarming Voice, I wonder what kind of emotional damage is dealt. Interesting. I think Jigglypuff could be good.

Well she was basically the Goddess of Order who had already turned most of the world to stone and only the strongest warriors were left untouched by her power. She was supposed to be pretty much undefeatable, but thanks to a blessing he received from the Goddess of Chaos he was able to do the deed. Before that though, he had defeated many warriors that were considered undefeatable, most notably the Black Knight and the Mad King. Also, though I can't remember the name, he uses a technique in the game alongside Aether that allowed him to heal himself by taking energy away from his opponents.

Admittedly a lot of his power comes from blessings from Goddesses, but considering he uses Ragnell in Smash, it's fair to say those blessings are in play and he has every bit of power he had at the end of Radiant Dawn.

That's fine. Dracula in Castlevania: Lords of Shadow 2 is immune to an extremely powerful attack from God because Dracula is God's chosen one. There's nothing wrong with blessings from goddesses. I'll read up on Black Knight and the Mad King. I'll even check out Ragnell if that is a weapon owned by Ike.

 

[Kazyx]

A variety of characters within the Smash Universe can be seen as powerful canonically. I'll just list a few.

Mewtwo - Created from the genetic material of the legendary Pokémon, Mew, who is said to have its DNA in all living Pokémon. Mewtwo's genetic material is also fused with a Human's DNA (specifically Ex-Team Rocket Scientist Blaine's within the Pokémon Special manga), creating a smart, taller, physically more capable Pokémon. His power, especially when Mega'd, is immense. It's hard to rival a Mewtwo's power.

Palutena - The Goddess of Light from the Kid Icarus franchise. She literally has an army of Centurions, including Pit, to protect the Sky and the Earth from the Underworld powerhouses of Medusa and Hades' armies. She also has the ability to give Pit the ability to Fly, as his wings I believe are broken so he cannot sustain flight by himself for long periods of time, from wherever she is at that time.

Donkey Kong - An unlikely choice, but the crazy gorilla has done some crazy powerful things. He's been able to take down a crocodile that, if we compared it in a little more realistic terms, was as tall as a Tyrannosaurus Rex to a 5'2" slightly overweight American teenager. As well, Donkey Kong has been catapulted into space by the force of a volcano, sent close enough to the Moon's gravatational forcewhere it brings him in toward it, to which he punches the moon down to Earth, crushing the bad guy of the game.

Rosalina and Luma - Rosalina has a massive following of little Luma star children who will do anything for her, and she is pretty much the Mother of the Stars. As such, she's got a lot of crazy powers that she can get thanks to Space. We have black holes, white holes, worm holes, supernovas, stars, asteroids, space thunderstorms, and much more.


Needless to say, a lot of characters are completely OP when compared to... A plumber who is likely on some sort of drug nearly 24/7, or a medieval knight or prince.

 

[RADSheikah]

Mega Man

Metal Blades

'Nuff said
/thread

 

[Pyra]

The strongest?
I'd say Palutena or Rosalina.
One's the Goddess of Light and the is a star mother and has a lot of supernatural space powers.

Or Pac-Man. Little guy can eat ghosts if he eats the right pellet. The implications of that are terrifying.

 

[Diddy Kong]

A variety of characters within the Smash Universe can be seen as powerful canonically. I'll just list a few.

Mewtwo - Created from the genetic material of the legendary Pokémon, Mew, who is said to have its DNA in all living Pokémon. Mewtwo's genetic material is also fused with a Human's DNA (specifically Ex-Team Rocket Scientist Blaine's within the Pokémon Special manga), creating a smart, taller, physically more capable Pokémon. His power, especially when Mega'd, is immense. It's hard to rival a Mewtwo's power.

Palutena - The Goddess of Light from the Kid Icarus franchise. She literally has an army of Centurions, including Pit, to protect the Sky and the Earth from the Underworld powerhouses of Medusa and Hades' armies. She also has the ability to give Pit the ability to Fly, as his wings I believe are broken so he cannot sustain flight by himself for long periods of time, from wherever she is at that time.

Donkey Kong - An unlikely choice, but the crazy gorilla has done some crazy powerful things. He's been able to take down a crocodile that, if we compared it in a little more realistic terms, was as tall as a Tyrannosaurus Rex to a 5'2" slightly overweight American teenager. As well, Donkey Kong has been catapulted into space by the force of a volcano, sent close enough to the Moon's gravatational forcewhere it brings him in toward it, to which he punches the moon down to Earth, crushing the bad guy of the game.

Rosalina and Luma - Rosalina has a massive following of little Luma star children who will do anything for her, and she is pretty much the Mother of the Stars. As such, she's got a lot of crazy powers that she can get thanks to Space. We have black holes, white holes, worm holes, supernovas, stars, asteroids, space thunderstorms, and much more.


Needless to say, a lot of characters are completely OP when compared to... A plumber who is likely on some sort of drug nearly 24/7, or a medieval knight or prince.

Big respect for mentoining DK! I always feel the Kongs get majorly underrated in power. Still think DK and even Diddy are more than a match for Mario and Luigi. Actually, I'd bet that DK & Diddy > Mario & Luigi.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I still feel that Rosalina and Palutena are among the strongest characters, simply because of their goddess-like powers.

Ganondorf's immortality requires his Triforce piece to be shining, but once its light is extinguished, such as with the Master Sword, he's pretty much dead.

Rosalina and Palutena don't have that handicap at all, so one can probably assume that they're practically immortal, though Rosalina most likely gained her immortality by special means.

On the other hand, Hades is able to kill Medusa, so it probably takes a god/goddess to kill a god/goddess.

 

[Diddy Kong]

If Palutena is so strong, why did she get possesed by Hades? And why does she make Pit do the fighting? Same with Rosalina and Mario on the last one.

Think that Ganondorf would be able to get defeated by them, but he'll likely still overpowered them due to raw force. Same with Mewtwo. Psychic abilities are basically overpowered in fictional standards. I still don't see why Palutena or Rosalina would be able to beat powerhouses as Mewtwo, Ganondorf, Samus, Ness or Lucas. I would mentoin DK to, but he's likely in trouble because they both are able to fly (not that DK hasn't handled flying enemies before).

I wanna debate the Kongs vs the Mario Brothers.

vs

Go go!

 

[Warzenschwein]

The Kongs' hair could catch fire but DK got enough strength to rip Mario's spine out if he wanted to.

 

[Pyra]

If Palutena is so strong, why did she get possesed by Hades?

They're both deities, anyway. It's different. It'd be different if she was possessed by a lesser being but she was possessed by Hades. Amongst the roster of characters in Smash, she's really strong.

And why does she make Pit do the fighting? Same with Rosalina and Mario on the last one.

Strength doesn't necessarily specifically mean physical power. Palutena also has an army of her own as well as Pit as her knight, so she would be a force to be reckoned with either way. Although, she is a goddess so she's pretty intense herself. Rosalina is busy. She has a lot of star kiddies to take care of.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

If Palutena is so strong, why did she get possesed by Hades? And why does she make Pit do the fighting? Same with Rosalina and Mario on the last one.

Hence why I said that it takes a god to kill a god. A mere mortal wouldn't be able to do that. It should also be noted that Pit's weapons were most likely made by the gods/goddesses; without those weapons, Pit probably wouldn't even stand a chance against Hades, let alone Medusa.

As for Rosalina, she most likely needs the Grand Stars to maintain her power. Bowser couldn't just attack the Comet Observatory, since Rosalina would likely be way too powerful for him to beat. Instead, he used a device to attract the Power Stars to him, likely saving himself from being clobbered to death.

Think that Ganondorf would be able to get defeated by them, but he'll likely still overpowered them due to raw force. Same with Mewtwo. Psychic abilities are basically overpowered in fictional standards. I still don't see why Palutena or Rosalina would be able to beat powerhouses as Mewtwo, Ganondorf, Samus, Ness or Lucas. I would mentoin DK to, but he's likely in trouble because they both are able to fly (not that DK hasn't handled flying enemies before).

Rosalina and Palutena do have the power to clobber just about anyone, but it's likely that they only use their full strength if things become dire.

 

[Diddy Kong]

So if Palutena > Mewtwo, Ganondorf, Samus, all other powerhouses, and Palutena < Hades... And apperantly, Pit defeated Hades, so does that make him the most powerful?

What does Hades do that makes people so confident Palutena is stronger than the rest of the cast? Not that being a Goddess isn't impressive, but say, Ike also defeated a Goddess : Ashera.

Speaking of Ike, he should be listed to as one of the biggest powerhouses. Think that DK and him easily have the most physical strenght out of all Smash characters.

 

[Unbias]

Mario and Luigi are pretty weak, their best item is the ones that grants invincibility but that only lasts for so long.

Kongs > 2 plumbers

 

[Pyra]

Canonically, though, doesn't Mario usually trump Donkey Kong?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Canonically, though, doesn't Mario usually trump Donkey Kong?

In Mario vs Donkey Kong he did, but he didn't do so directly but more as a *****. Therefore I kinda conclude DK > Mario.

Mario might be able to travel over distant planets in space. But DK can punch a moon out of it's orbit.

Diddy Kong vs Luigi might be more even I think. But also in Diddy's favor I feel. Poltergeist will be useless against Orange Grenades I think. And it's not like Diddy cannot match Luigi's jumping abilities.

Another character that should definitely be listed as powerful, even if non-playable is Isaac. From Golden Sun. He's a real formidable psychic swordsman. Think he'd definitely stand a chance against Lucas.

 

[ShadowLink84]

There's nothing about the Golden Gauntlets that insists that it does anything for Link's strength. It increases Link's lifting power, not his actual strength.

You do realize, you just suggested an individual who can lift 700lbs, does not have any greater strength than someone who lifts 300lbs right?
If you are increasing how much you can lift, this means your strength also has to be increased. The two are not exclusive to each other they are one and the same. The only reason you do not see anything such as him using the BIggoron sword one handed is because of game mechanics and nothing more.

 

[Diddy Kong]

But the Golden Gauntlets do not even make Link's sword attacks stronger in OoT. So unless Link is going to hurl those castle blocks at characters, it won't change how strong he is.

 

[Louie G.]

I haven't visited this thread in a while, but it's a lot of fun to discuss this stuff.

I would say Mewtwo, Palutena, Rosalina, and Ganondorf are up there for sure.
Donkey Kong, Kirby, Ike, and Sonic are pretty high up as well.

 

[Pyra]

In Mario vs Donkey Kong he did, but he didn't do so directly but more as a *****. Therefore I kinda conclude DK > Mario..

All I'm saying is that in any media in which the two are explicitly rivals, Mario always wins.

EDIT: Oh, and Little Mac beats Donkey Kong too in Punch Out!! Wii. This time it's straight up boxing.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Mewtwo's move pool by levelling according to Pokemon db
His special defense and normal defense isn't that good, so any non-physical attacks is his bane
But mewtwo has a lot of moves to either prevent an attack from happening or dodge it completely.
Lv.
Move
Type
Cat.
Power
Acc.
1DisableNORMALStatus-100
1ConfusionPSYCHICSpecial50100
1SafeguardNORMALStatus--
8SwiftNORMALSpecial60∞
15Future SightPSYCHICSpecial120100
22Psych UpNORMALStatus--
29Miracle EyePSYCHICStatus--
36Psycho CutPSYCHICPhysical70100
43Power SwapPSYCHICStatus--
43Guard SwapPSYCHICStatus--
50RecoverNORMALStatus--
57PsychicPSYCHICSpecial90100
64BarrierPSYCHICStatus--
70Aura SphereFIGHTINGSpecial80∞
79AmnesiaPSYCHICStatus--
86MistICEStatus--
93Me FirstNORMALStatus--
100PsystrikePSYCHICSpecial100100

 

[Pyra]

Everyone's talking about Mewtwo and I'm sitting here thinking about how cool it would be if we could see everyone's stats as if they were Pokemon.

 

[Shiliski]

Well first off, in order to have any serious discussion, we have to dictate harsher rules. Even then, the results of the discussion are only going to be valid within that ruleset.

Questions we have to ask are:

Do they have time to prepare or not?
PT's strength really depends on this, because of the question "What if PT doesn't have his god-legendaries with him at the time?". Also for other characters: "What if Sonic doesn't have the Chaos Emeralds or enough rings to go Super?" "What if Ness doesn't have time to go get some kind of holy weapon?" I could go on but you get the point.

Are they fighting to the death? Are they fighting over territory? Are they fighting over a magical artifact (Like the Triforce, a CTF Flag, or something similar?)
This really matters because if it's a fight to the death, the tier list would go: The Invincibles (Ganondorf, Possibly Kirby, etc.), then the Sometimes-Invincibles (Super Sonic, I forget who else) and then everybody else. If it's over territory, then being invincible doesn't matter if you can just get repeatedly knocked into space. If it's over some magical artifact, then the fastest characters are actually top tier (Sonic and Samus, for example) along with people who have mind-control powers (Mewtwo: >>Drop the flag and walk away<<).

Thing is, fighting to the death (or even just to KO) isn't necessarily all that important in most contexts. Fighting over territory or magical items is going to be more important in the long run.

In the end, the question is too vague to really be meaningful, and since these are fictional characters it's hard to really measure their power.

For example, the ability to create a world would, to some people, qualify one as a god, so that actually would make Ness god-like and therefore he might be able to create a holy weapon. Thing is: What about psychologically? Would he even think to do that? Would he get the idea to make one before Ganondorf pummeled his face in? I don't think he would, and if we're going to talk about combat strength then we also need to consider competence.

For another example, even if Ness has more potential than Mewtwo, Mewtwo is a bit harder, crueler and would be more likely to go for the kill, meaning he's naturally going to make the first move. Mewtwo has access to Shadow Ball, a Ghost-type move, and Ghost types are super effective against Psychic types. And since Ness isn't actually invincible, a single super-effective Shadow Ball could wipe him out.

However, then we have a situation where Ness can possibly beat Ganondorf, and Mewtwo could possibly beat Ness. Does that mean that Mewtwo can beat Ganondorf? No, not really, because there's no way that Mewtwo would ever be able to make or use a holy weapon that could beat Ganondorf. So instead of an actual tier list, we just have Ganon = Rock, Ness = Paper, Mewtwo = Scissors.

But again, that's only under one ruleset. Under a completely different ruleset, Ganondorf beats them both, or maybe Ness beats Mewtwo and Ganondorf, or maybe Mewtwo is top dog. Thing is, none of those rulesets are more valid than any other and people are going to naturally choose which ruleset favors their favorite characters.

Now, about Pokemon Trainer: I kinda feel like giving him every single pokemon is cheating somehow. Lately a lot of the legendaries come to the trainer via plot, so there's no real question about whether or not he'd get them. However, canonically, he usually only gets ONE legendary (aside from Mewtwo, Mew, and others like them) so it's more likely that he'd have control over Time OR Space, but not both. Also, that's only if you assume that PT is the player character and not just some random trainer who only has the three starters (the player character only has one starter unless he goes well out of his way to get all three, so there's a good case against PT being the player character).

Either way I think a real contest would have to be a measure of "How many favorable matchups does each character have?" instead of "Who is the best at beating <insert character here>".

EDIT: Also it's worth noting that while the Triforce does grant wishes, it does not grant them immediately, and the wishes are not guaranteed. Ganondorf wished to rule Hyrule in LttP. What he ended up getting was control over the Golden Realm (in later games known as the Sacred Realm) and an army big enough to potentially control Hyrule... except that he was stopped by a kid with a magic sword. I don't know about the Star Rod but I think it's a bit more instant than that, though it may have other limitations.

 

[Rabbattack]

I still feel that Rosalina and Palutena are among the strongest characters, simply because of their goddess-like powers.

Ganondorf's immortality requires his Triforce piece to be shining, but once its light is extinguished, such as with the Master Sword, he's pretty much dead.

Rosalina and Palutena don't have that handicap at all, so one can probably assume that they're practically immortal, though Rosalina most likely gained her immortality by special means.

On the other hand, Hades is able to kill Medusa, so it probably takes a god/goddess to kill a god/goddess.

Rosalina is not really a goddess like Palutena is.I'm pretty sure this title isn't at all what it implies. Rosalina is not immortal and is as human as Mario, Wario, Waluigi, Daisy, Wapeach, Luigi, and Peach. Rosalina needed Marios help to defeat bowser, I guess this means Mario is beyond godly levels. I think he can even outmatch the creation abilities of Arceus. MARIO IS NOW THE GOD OF MUSHROOMS! MARIO MUST BE BEYOND IMMORTALITY!

They only send out three against a trainer who's using three. I knew you were going to throw this at me, its fanfiction mate if they have yet to throw all 6 pokemon at one wild pokemon in game then its mere fanfiction made by fans in order for the pokemon trainer to defeat a powerful foe. If the newest pokemon game allows all 6 to jump one pokemon then you're right.

So your asking another member to back you up cause your only argument holds no weight. Not cool man. Super Sonic > Pokemon trainer(no matter what legendary uber tier he has). If you reply again trying to convey this 6 pokeball thing with no in-game proof then i'll ignore it.

Lol, so am I not allowed to ask for help? If my argument holds little weight than I should be able to ask others in order to make it more reasonable.

Well first off, in order to have any serious discussion, we have to dictate harsher rules. Even then, the results of the discussion are only going to be valid within that ruleset.

Questions we have to ask are:

Do they have time to prepare or not?
PT's strength really depends on this, because of the question "What if PT doesn't have his god-legendaries with him at the time?". Also for other characters: "What if Sonic doesn't have the Chaos Emeralds or enough rings to go Super?" "What if Ness doesn't have time to go get some kind of holy weapon?" I could go on but you get the point.

Are they fighting to the death? Are they fighting over territory? Are they fighting over a magical artifact (Like the Triforce, a CTF Flag, or something similar?)
This really matters because if it's a fight to the death, the tier list would go: The Invincibles (Ganondorf, Possibly Kirby, etc.), then the Sometimes-Invincibles (Super Sonic, I forget who else) and then everybody else. If it's over territory, then being invincible doesn't matter if you can just get repeatedly knocked into space. If it's over some magical artifact, then the fastest characters are actually top tier (Sonic and Samus, for example) along with people who have mind-control powers (Mewtwo: >>Drop the flag and walk away<<).

Thing is, fighting to the death (or even just to KO) isn't necessarily all that important in most contexts. Fighting over territory or magical items is going to be more important in the long run.

In the end, the question is too vague to really be meaningful, and since these are fictional characters it's hard to really measure their power.

For example, the ability to create a world would, to some people, qualify one as a god, so that actually would make Ness god-like and therefore he might be able to create a holy weapon. Thing is: What about psychologically? Would he even think to do that? Would he get the idea to make one before Ganondorf pummeled his face in? I don't think he would, and if we're going to talk about combat strength then we also need to consider competence.

For another example, even if Ness has more potential than Mewtwo, Mewtwo is a bit harder, crueler and would be more likely to go for the kill, meaning he's naturally going to make the first move. Mewtwo has access to Shadow Ball, a Ghost-type move, and Ghost types are super effective against Psychic types. And since Ness isn't actually invincible, a single super-effective Shadow Ball could wipe him out.

However, then we have a situation where Ness can possibly beat Ganondorf, and Mewtwo could possibly beat Ness. Does that mean that Mewtwo can beat Ganondorf? No, not really, because there's no way that Mewtwo would ever be able to make or use a holy weapon that could beat Ganondorf. So instead of an actual tier list, we just have Ganon = Rock, Ness = Paper, Mewtwo = Scissors.

But again, that's only under one ruleset. Under a completely different ruleset, Ganondorf beats them both, or maybe Ness beats Mewtwo and Ganondorf, or maybe Mewtwo is top dog. Thing is, none of those rulesets are more valid than any other and people are going to naturally choose which ruleset favors their favorite characters.

Now, about Pokemon Trainer: I kinda feel like giving him every single pokemon is cheating somehow. Lately a lot of the legendaries come to the trainer via plot, so there's no real question about whether or not he'd get them. However, canonically, he usually only gets ONE legendary (aside from Mewtwo, Mew, and others like them) so it's more likely that he'd have control over Time OR Space, but not both. Also, that's only if you assume that PT is the player character and not just some random trainer who only has the three starters (the player character only has one starter unless he goes well out of his way to get all three, so there's a good case against PT being the player character).

Either way I think a real contest would have to be a measure of "How many favorable matchups does each character have?" instead of "Who is the best at beating <insert character here>".

EDIT: Also it's worth noting that while the Triforce does grant wishes, it does not grant them immediately, and the wishes are not guaranteed. Ganondorf wished to rule Hyrule in LttP. What he ended up getting was control over the Golden Realm (in later games known as the Sacred Realm) and an army big enough to potentially control Hyrule... except that he was stopped by a kid with a magic sword. I don't know about the Star Rod but I think it's a bit more instant than that, though it may have other limitations.

The favorable matchup thing is something I suggested, but everyone ignored me. I see this as the most logical way to decide, one character at a time. There have been two Zeldas (TP, OoT) and three Links (OoT, TP, SS) so remember that each Link or Zelda is not the same as the last. I suggest Dryn do it because he is so smart. Dryn is my new senpai.

 

[Glaciacott]

Um, Hades never possesed Palutena ... Uprising spoilers follow

She was possessed by the chaos kin, a being that takes over people while it consumes their souls. Supposedly as powerful as gods are within the uprising lore. Now, we can keep in mind that Palutena resisted this for years without her soul getting consumed.
Also, while Pit did defeat Hades, it was done with the help of another god, Dyntos, who made the ultimate sacred treasure. Without this Pit could not have competed with Hades.
As for Palutena's own power, she never does show it much and seems to prefer to avoid the fighting herself, but we do know that while possessed she was capable of turning pit into a ring. We also know the three gods (Palutena, Viridi, Palutena) never actually fight directly, but it can be assumed they're at equal power.

Basically, I'm sure Palutena is probably the most overpowered. Easily. Rosalina having cosmic powers is also worth noting.
Mewtwo can get caught by a kid with a Charizard. Not what I would consider super powerful.

 

[ShadowLink84]

But the Golden Gauntlets do not even make Link's sword attacks stronger in OoT. So unless Link is going to hurl those castle blocks at characters, it won't change how strong he is.

I want you to think about how silly you sound.
Do you really believe that a game designer would sacrifice gameplay for the sake of a what if scenario for people?
Course not.

Link doesn't do any more damage, simply because it wouldn't be intuitive to allow him to oneshot every creature out there.
This is the same reason you don't see Sonic moving at super sonic speeds in a way that is realistic. That would just kill gameplay.

 

[Unbias]

Lol, so am I not allowed to ask for help? If my argument holds little weight than I should be able to ask others in order to make it more reasonable.

If you got nothing to put on the plate, then don't reply pal that's all i'm saying. Sonic > pokemon trainer.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I want you to think about how silly you sound.
Do you really believe that a game designer would sacrifice gameplay for the sake of a what if scenario for people?
Course not.

Link doesn't do any more damage, simply because it wouldn't be intuitive to allow him to oneshot every creature out there.
This is the same reason you don't see Sonic moving at super sonic speeds in a way that is realistic. That would just kill gameplay.

Nowhere in the game is it implied that outside of being able to lift heavy ****, the Golden Gauntles has any effect on how powerful Link's attacks are. So no, I'm not buying it.

 

[AzureKaze]

Sonic is probably the strongest by far. Putting the Chaos Emeralds aside, the dude has beaten Perfect Chaos without the need for a Super form in Sonic Generations. Perfect Chaos has the power to lay waste to the entire planet, and as I've already pointed out, base Sonic beat him. Whether that makes him stronger than the rest of the cast, I'm not sure, but I do know that Super Sonic decimates everyone with the greatest of ease. In Sonic the Hedgehog(2006), Super Sonic, along with Super Shadow and Super Silver, was able to beat the Sun god Solaris, whom is omnipresent with time and space, and distorted all of existence when he came into existence. Solaris is also stated to be have universal destructive capabilities bare minimum by Dr. Eggman.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Mewtwo's move pool by levelling according to Pokemon db
His special defense and normal defense isn't that good, so any non-physical attacks is his bane
But mewtwo has a lot of moves to either prevent an attack from happening or dodge it completely.
Lv.
Move
Type
Cat.
Power
Acc.
1DisableNORMALStatus-100
1ConfusionPSYCHICSpecial50100
1SafeguardNORMALStatus--
8SwiftNORMALSpecial60∞
15Future SightPSYCHICSpecial120100
22Psych UpNORMALStatus--
29Miracle EyePSYCHICStatus--
36Psycho CutPSYCHICPhysical70100
43Power SwapPSYCHICStatus--
43Guard SwapPSYCHICStatus--
50RecoverNORMALStatus--
57PsychicPSYCHICSpecial90100
64BarrierPSYCHICStatus--
70Aura SphereFIGHTINGSpecial80∞
79AmnesiaPSYCHICStatus--
86MistICEStatus--
93Me FirstNORMALStatus--
100PsystrikePSYCHICSpecial100100

What? His def and s.def are both base 90. That's not godly, but it's still pretty good. And they only get better in mega form. I still insist that we at least consider all sources for these characters and Mewtwo can acces his mega formes at will. That means Mewtwo becomes stronger than the creator of the universe who personally molded the embodiments of space and time. Mewtwo can defeat that. When put up against that scale, what hope does Palutena have? Yes, she's a goddess, but but a creation goddess. Mewtwo is raw, primal psychic energy. That's pretty hard to stop.

Also, with moves like barrier, recover, and light screen he can take a lot of damage. Even without the anime that still gives him a lot of staying power.

Edit: really, the only force I see as a threat to Mewtwo is Ganondorf's magic.