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Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

Unbias

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Sonic is the strongest character. He could maintain his super form for more than 24 hours.

Plus the speed boost added onto his already beastly speed in base form, i don't need to go through it really unless ya'll want me to break it down.
Has anyone taken Hyrule Warriors Link into account? I know it 'technically' isn't canon, but hey, he's a friggin' one man army. That has to count for something...
Sonic in base form demolished an army of robots armed with weaponry that far exceeds the monsters link faces in that game.
 
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RelaxAlax

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Sonic is the strongest character. He could maintain his super form for more than 24 hours.

Plus the speed boost added onto his already beastly speed in base form, i don't need to go through it really unless ya'll want me to break it down.

Sonic in base form demolished an army of robots armed with weaponry that far exceeds the monsters link faces in that game.
*Looks at name*
*Looks at display picture*

EDIT: I'm just teasing no worries bud.
 
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Ryuutakeshi

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Well, he does bear the triforce of power.

Mewtwo in mega form surpasses Arceus in power by, I think, 80 BST points. And even out of Mega Form he rivals the rulers of time and space in power.
 

Diddy Kong

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Which also makes me believe that Mewtwo quite likely has the strongest offensive abilities out of all Smash characters. But can we even use Mewtwo Y / X if he has no trainer?
 

Unbias

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*Looks at name*
*Looks at display picture*

EDIT: I'm just teasing no worries bud.


OT: Haven't read any valid argument as to which puts said character above Super Sonic - Sama. Faster than sound in Base = Near light speed movement and invincibility and enhanced strength = Massive hole in Ganons chest or decapitation he cannot regrow limbs although he's immortal.
 
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Jmacz

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Pokemon Trainer wins, if we are going by cannon he can have any 6 Pokemon, I would personally chose.

1. Arceus- Literally god.
2. Giratina- Thought by many to be the Devil
3. Palkia- Controls Space
4. Dialga- Controls Time.
5. Mew- Less powerful than Mew, but some are making an argument for him by himself.
6. Shedninja- Can only be killed by another pokemon, as only super effective attacks can hurt it.

HM: Wobbuffett- Can reflect any attack back at the user, as long as he uses the correct counter.
 
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Crystanium

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Do you have some sort of autism that gives you the ability to do complete all these equations?

Good job on the Ganondorf explanation, that's what I was also thinking. I couldn't have explained it as well as you.
No, just time and reading.

No problem. It annoys me to no end when people make unsubstantiated claims. Nothing but fanwank if you ask me.

So I've come to a decision. In terms of raw power, Rosalina wins due to her ability to create a black hole and destroy the universe.
Rosalina never created a black hole.

However, Mewtwo would curbstomp Rosalina because of the speed difference, plus mind manipulation. Even if she's resistant to psychic attacks, Mewtwo can still teleport behind her and finish her off quickly.
Is it in Mewtwo's character to manipulate peoples' minds? If so, source, please?

As for characters who CAN'T die like Ganondorf, characters like Mewtwo and Rosalina could never be defeated by him but could not kill him at the same time. The only characters with the potential to kill Ganondorf are Link, Zelda, Pit, and Ike (though I'm not sure if he's fast enough to win), because of their holy weapons.
That's a no-limits fallacy, and as I have argued already, there's no evidence Ganondorf is invulnerable to everything except that which has the power to repel evil. In other words, in order to make this claim, you either need to be omniscient or you need to have tried to harm Ganondorf in every way possible. No one has has a life time to do that, however.

I also think Ike and Marth could stand up against Ganondorf. Especially Ike. Actually, it's a match that I really would love to see!

Why does everyone rate Rosalina and Palutena so high though? Could they beat Mewtwo, Ness, Samus or Ganondorf? Currently, I don't think so.

Think Donkey Kong also is very underrated. Punching a moon out of orbit, into the earth is no small feat. I'd say he could almost basically wreck anyone he could physically touch.
Because Rosalina and Palutena are supposed to be goddesses. Well, the latter is, but not so much the former. So "god status" supposedly trumps everything else. The problem has been the same with a character like Fierce Deity. But "god" doesn't mean anything, only feats matter and if a god-character has little to no feats and is vulnerable to conventional attacks, that god-character isn't so amazing.

OT: Haven't read any valid argument as to which puts said character above Super Sonic - Sama. Faster than sound in Base = Near light speed movement and invincibility and enhanced strength = Massive hole in Ganons chest or decapitation he cannot regrow limbs although he's immortal.
I know Sonic can travel at hypersonic speeds, the low-end being Mach 5 (1,715 m/s; 5,632 ft/s). The light speed dash doesn't seem to last very long, to be honest, unless you have a link to demonstrate that Sonic can travel at light speed and not for a short burst as I have observed. I've already calculated the amount of energy Sonic would produce, but because the series tells physics to buzz off, Sonic doesn't get that durability or infinite energy.

But she did that at the end of Galaxy.
No she didn't.
 

Unbias

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Pokemon Trainer wins, if we are going by cannon he can have any 6 Pokemon, I would personally chose.

1. Arceus- Literally god.
2. Giratina- Thought by many to be the Devil
3. Palkia- Controls Space
4. Dialga- Controls Time.
5. Mew- Less powerful than Mew, but some are making an argument for him by himself.
6. Shedninja- Can only be killed by another pokemon, as only super effective attacks can hurt it.

HM: Wobbuffett- Can reflect any attack back at the user, as long as he uses the correct counter.
1. Gets blitz by Super sonic spin dash through the chest
2. Sonic can use chaos control and warp to his dimension either way he gets blitz
3 . Gets blitz
4. Chaos control blitz
5. Gets blitz laughable diff
6. lel Sonic Wind(flying type attack) = Dead soul stealing bug.

Unless someone can outlast Sonics super form(which is over 24 hours in canon) then he's at the tippidy top of the list.
 

Diddy Kong

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Sonic got punched out of Super Sonic status by Knuckles IIRC. So it's not like Super Sonic is invincible. And even if? Who's to stay he'll resist psychic attacks when Super Sonic? Heard Sonic doesn't really like psychics either, which would make me guess henautomatically loses to the PSI kids and Mewtwo.
 

Unbias

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And guess what. If you fight knuckles later on with super sonic his attacks will have no effect. Heck he slammed his face against rocks out of space at max speed and was left unharmed in the final fight against eggman. Inconsistencies for the sake of plot he's invincible and he can maintain his speed and react to incoming attacks as shown in Sonic Unleashed. Psychic attacks you say? No point if the move doesn't connect the PSI boys get blitz by Base Sonic before they can shout 'PK'. Mewtwo is a joke couldn't even put down Mew who is a weaker version of him, Mewtwo also gets demolished by a high velocity spin dash through the chest. Also Sonic can use 'Time stop' which stops his opponent(used in Sonic adventure 2) to freeze his opponents. Super sonic is broken only Gods can beat him.
 
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Crystanium

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An explanation for why Sonic is knocked out of his super form is because he doesn't have any rings. However, the problem with that is without the rings, Sonic will revert to his normal form anyway, so possession of rings can be dismissed as a game mechanic. It does not seem to be anything like Link's heart containers, which is his "life force" according to textual evidence and the way healing items behave. Collecting 100 rings would grant an extra life, much like collecting 100 coins in Super Mario Bros. granted an extra life. So I'd dismiss rings as a game mechanic.

The event in which Sonic is hit out of his super form is during a scripted scene. Here, Sonic loses the Chaos Emeralds. There is a limit to Sonic's super form, so Sonic could very well be knocked right out of it with a strong impact. Assuming Sonic was traveling at supersonic speed, we could assume that Sonic was travel Mach 4.9, since he can travel at hypersonic speed. This means Mach 5, tops. Using the formula for kinetic energy, and considering Sonic is 35 kg. he would produce 49,433,168.575 joules, or 11.81 kg. of TNT.

I don't want to say this is the energy required to knock Sonic out of his super form. There might be other instances where Sonic is knocked out of his super form, but I'm not aware of any, as I don't know anything about the Sonic series.
 
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Jmacz

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1. Gets blitz by Super sonic spin dash through the chest
2. Sonic can use chaos control and warp to his dimension either way he gets blitz
3 . Gets blitz
4. Chaos control blitz
5. Gets blitz laughable diff
6. lel Sonic Wind(flying type attack) = Dead soul stealing bug.

Unless someone can outlast Sonics super form(which is over 24 hours in canon) then he's at the tippidy top of the list.
1. Except Arceus is god, you even say in a later post only a god could kill Sonic....well Pokemon has at least two gods, Arceus and.

2. Yes, Giritina is also a god, but he is the devil which may be considered worse. Both would not be taken out by one spin dash to the chest.

3+4. Dialga and Palkia can just go back in time and kill Sonic or just destroy the entire world, while Sonic is busy with the other 4 pokemon. This isn't a pokemon league match, and Sonic isn't a pokemon so there is no reason why the trainer could not have all 6 pokemon out at once.

5. Psychic attacks? How could Sonic reach Mew if he could just be stopped mid run by Mew. If anything a Psychic type is Sonic's biggest weakness because they can stop him from running. And I've never heard of Sonic being able to get out of a psychic attack, so if he can it's news to me.

6. Sonic is not a Pokemon, let a lone a flying type. There for theoretically Sonic could do no damage to Shedninja. And if you really wanna descredit that, discredit Wobbuffett. All he has to sit there and do counter and Sonic wouldn't do anything. And we know Smash characters can't hurt Wobbuffett because he was a Pokeball.
 
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Unbias

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1. Except Arceus is god, you even say in a later post only a god could kill Sonic....well Pokemon has at least two gods, Arceus and
In canon he can still be beaten by a normal pokemon, this status God doesn't guarantee a trainer an auto win in uber battles. I could've sworn in the movie he got overpwoered by an army of pokmeon and sealed or something(don't watch it so im probably wrong). Oh and Sonic has defeated a creature that has power comparable to Gods(perfect chaos). A 15 year odl sonic needed his super form to win but now a 16 year old Sonic beat Perfect chaos without any chaos emeralds.
2. Yes, Giritina is also a god, but he is the devil which may be considered worse. Both would not be taken out by one spin dash to the chest.
No its not a God lol the fact that you called it Satan refuted your own point. Sorry but Satan isn't reacting to such speed especially when in canon extremspeed has higher priority than any of Satans movepool.
3+4. Dialga and Palkia can just go back in time and kill Sonic or just destroy the entire world, while Sonic is busy with the other 4 pokemon. This isn't a pokemon league match, and Sonic isn't a pokemon so there is no reason why the trainer could not have all 6 pokemon out at once.
A pokemon trainer only sends one poke at a time so mute point i don't see team rocket doing so despite them not being good nor are the other pokemon gangs. I need proof from any Poke game that shows a trainer releasing 6 at once. Even in the smash bros game itself ONE pokemon at a time can't make stuff up to suit your claim stick with canon not fanfiction, Sonic can also travel through time heck he can stop time before they even follow their trainers command oh and what sort of trainer would command their pokemon to destroy the planet? LOL
5. Psychic attacks? How could Sonic reach Mew if he could just be stopped mid run by Mew. If anything a Psychic type is Sonic's biggest weakness because they can stop him from running. And I've never heard of Sonic being able to get out of a psychic attack, so if he can it's news to me.
How does Mew counter chaos control or time stop? I'll post a vid of Sonic using such a move without his super form if you want. The worse a pokemon can do with psychic is throw the victim after they are caught.
6. Sonic is not a Pokemon, let a lone a flying type. There for theoretically Sonic could do no damage to Shedninja. And if you really wanna descredit that, discredit Wobbuffett. All he has to sit there and do counter and Sonic wouldn't do anything. And we know Smash characters can't hurt Wobbuffett because he was a Pokeball.
Sonic wind is an elemental attack moves such as gust can kill that thing stop overrating something that has 1hp lol. Wobbuffett would die after one hit pal(or faint), first of all Super sonic is invincible if anything he'll be sent flying back like a DBZ character so the damage counter dishes out will be nothing. Wobz uses counter? Sonic wind. lol pokeball pokemons in smash don't even stay out for long and in the game he can't hurt super sonic either.
 
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Rhus

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I would say Ness has the greatest overall power of any character in Smash.

Maybe not in 1v1s, but I can argue and write an essay as to why Ness is easily more powerful than most of the characters being discussed here.
 

Crystanium

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The problem with the Pokedex is that it's unreliable. So what if Arceus is supposed to be a god? It's based on hearsay, i.e., myths/legends. The same can be said of Giratina. Unless the Pokemon games aren't the first time Arceus is ever shown. If we're going by canon, then it's going to be important to use the original source, not an amalgamation of sources that could contradict each other. Either way, "god" doesn't mean anything. Only feats matter.

As for Pokemon trainers only being capable of bringing out one Pokemon at a time, that's not true. They can bring out all six Pokemon if they want. Game mechanics prevents this and as you can see, throughout the years, the games have allowed trainers to bring out more than one Pokemon. Since some element of realism is being added into the equation, this means the Pokemon trainer can bring out all six.

Another thing is that calling Giratina a god and a devil is in no way some sort of refutation. In your mind, Unbias, you might think it's a contradiction, but really, it's not. "Devil" comes from the Greek, diabolous, meaning "opponent", "adversary". The Hebrew being satan (pronounced "suh-tawn" in Hebrew, not "say-ten"). In fact, the literal translation for "Fierce Deity" in The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask is, "Devil-God Mask". If you're going by the Bible, in one instance, Yahweh is satan, that is, an adversary. (2 Sam. 24:1; 1 Chron. 21:1)

I can tell you're a fan of Sonic, Unbias, but you are ironically being biased.

I would say Ness has the greatest overall power of any character in Smash.

Maybe not in 1v1s, but I can argue and write an essay as to why Ness is easily more powerful than most of the characters being discussed here.
Then demonstrate why Ness has the greatest overall power of any character in Smash.
 
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Spazzy_D

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I also think Ike and Marth could stand up against Ganondorf. Especially Ike. Actually, it's a match that I really would love to see!

Why does everyone rate Rosalina and Palutena so high though? Could they beat Mewtwo, Ness, Samus or Ganondorf? Currently, I don't think so.

Think Donkey Kong also is very underrated. Punching a moon out of orbit, into the earth is no small feat. I'd say he could almost basically wreck anyone he could physically touch.
Well, if we're going by game canon, this totally happened.


So if Mac can punch out Donkey Kong, and Donkey can punch that moon, where would that put Mac? (Unrelated, but this fight also includes maybe my FAVORITE Doc Louis quote. "Listen Mac, if you're having trouble maybe I should call my plumber.")

...seriously though, Little Mac is definitely above what a peak real world human can do. He fights guys that demolish buildings with their fists and race against bullet trains. I believe Mac would still rank fairly low, but it's something to think about.

Also, I think you are seriously underestimating Palutena and the over all fire power of gods in the Kid Icarus universe. I might link some vids later.
 
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Rhus

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Fair enough.

In Earthbound, Ness grows and develops a myriad of psychic powers relating to Photokinesis, Paralysis, Hypnosis, extremely powerful healing capabilities and the ability to summon very sturdy PSI shields which protect against all forms of physical attacks. In the later stages of the game, these techniques become powerful enough to paralyze and/or put all targets to sleep, create flashes of sacred light which obliterate enemies out of sheer power (the move doesn't even deal damage, it just eradicates all targets), and heal all his surrounding allies for such an incredible amount it can bring your whole party from death to almost full health. In addition to this, Ness can resurrect target allies, a skill which is far and above most characters skills in smash bros. In smash bros, Ness demonstrates Pyrokinesis and the ability to manipulate electricity, combined with the ability to use the spell PK Starstorm.

But I don't believe that Ness' psychic powers are more powerful than Mewtwo's when it comes to destruction, but Ness demonstrates that he has healing prowess beyond what he can do for himself (Mewtwo's Recover, he does not learn Wish, Heal Bell or Healing Wish). Ness also possesses the ability to incapacitate multiple opponents unlike Mewtwo (Thunder Wave, Disable etc.) and create barriers that reflect physical damage onto all his allies, while Mewtwo can only use Reflect, which does not actually reflect damage. While it's pretty hard to compare Psystrike to PK Rockin, Mewtwo is also an exceedingly powerful psychic, and I think it's safe to say that offensively the two have similar abilities.

However, this isn't just about comparing Ness to Mewtwo. In terms of the strongest character canonically, not the overall strongest 1v1 fighter, I believe Ness is the strongest due to a certain event in Earthbound. For those of you whom haven't played Earthbound, in his game, Ness is told to collect the melodies from Eight Sanctuary locations from around Eagleland. He is instructed to collect these melodies and "awaken" himself as the chosen one. Once he collects the Eight Meoldies, he ends up having a relapse of memories of his father, and is ported into a dimension created by his own psychic powers. The realm is created so Ness can experience what influence he has had on this world, and fight his darkest fears away. This realm is called Magicant, and it is created by Ness after he has become awakened by the Eight Sanctuaries in order to ward off his darkest fears, cleanse his traits, and become essentially ridden of all flaws. Once Ness conquers his nightmare, the Eight Sanctuaries bless him and he ties his own power to the Earth itself. He gains a massive boost and becomes the chosen one, ready to fight Giygas with only pure attributes. He has purged all of his fears, greed, and selfishness and replaced it with pure morale and devotion to eradicating the greatest evil of all time, and accepts his fate of potentially never returning back home regardless of the outcome against the embodiment of evil itself; Giygas.

Ness might not have the drive to take over the Earth like Ganondorf, or the speed of Sonic, or perhaps the destructive potential of Mewtwo, but Ness has been purged of all fundamental evils in human nature, and possesses the power to save lives, resurrect the dead and cure otherwise fatal diseases. He may not be invincible, and he may not be a monster of destruction, but Ness is the strongest character in Smash bros to date.
 

Crystanium

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So if Mac can punch out Donkey Kong, and Donkey can punch that moon, where would that put Mac?
Nowhere. First, Punch-Out!! was released prior to Donkey Kong Country Returns by a few years. Second, DK is making a cameo appearance, so we can't say what occurred in that video would actually occur.

...seriously though, Little Mac is definitely above what a peak real world human can do. He fights guys that demolish buildings with their fists and race against bullet trains.
Do you have any videos?

Also, I think you are seriously underestimating Palutena and the over all fire power of gods in the Kid Icarus universe. I might link some vids later.
Palutena doesn't show much from what I recall playing Kid Icarus: Uprising, so she's ignored. Does her being above Pit make her inferentially more powerful than him? Of course. The problem is she lacks feats. Pit, however, had quite a few showings, which pushes him up on the tier list.

Paralysis,
How is Paralysis cast? Is it fired like in The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim? Does it cover an area, and if so, what is the radius?

Hypnosis,
How does this exactly work? If you don't trust someone who is going to try to hypnotize you, or if you don't believe hypnotism works, it won't work. Hypnotists can't hypnotize you if you don't want to be.

extremely powerful healing capabilities and the ability to summon very sturdy PSI shields which protect against all forms of physical attacks.
How does the healing work? Does it just heal weariness? Or does it heal wounds? Or both? Can it restore a broken arm or regenerate one that has been blown off? As for physical attacks, any examples?

create flashes of sacred light which obliterate enemies out of sheer power (the move doesn't even deal damage, it just eradicates all targets),
I am not aware of any sacred light. Are you referring to PSI Flash? I see the description say "glorious light", but not "sacred light".

In smash bros, Ness demonstrates Pyrokinesis and the ability to manipulate electricity, combined with the ability to use the spell PK Starstorm.
The Super Smash Bros series is being ignored here. We're using canon, so Ness, unfortunately, does not get PSI Fire, Thunder, or Starstorm. Ness does get PSI Rockin', though. Since "psychokinetic wave" is undefined, we cannot quantify it. Unless it's just meant to be understood as being pushed or thrown by telekinesis, similarly to Psychic in the Pokemon series.

Ness also possesses the ability to incapacitate multiple opponents unlike Mewtwo (Thunder Wave, Disable etc.) and create barriers that reflect physical damage onto all his allies, while Mewtwo can only use Reflect, which does not actually reflect damage.
Ness' shield is described as producing a "shield of light", and solid light is an actual thing. That might not necessarily be what Ness is doing, but it's the closest real-world example. The description also says it halves the damage and some of the blocked damage is dealt back. How exactly does the latter work?

However, this isn't just about comparing Ness to Mewtwo. In terms of the strongest character canonically, not the overall strongest 1v1 fighter, I believe Ness is the strongest due to a certain event in Earthbound. For those of you whom haven't played Earthbound, in his game, Ness is told to collect the melodies from Eight Sanctuary locations from around Eagleland. He is instructed to collect these melodies and "awaken" himself as the chosen one. Once he collects the Eight Meoldies, he ends up having a relapse of memories of his father, and is ported into a dimension created by his own psychic powers. The realm is created so Ness can experience what influence he has had on this world, and fight his darkest fears away. This realm is called Magicant, and it is created by Ness after he has become awakened by the Eight Sanctuaries in order to ward off his darkest fears, cleanse his traits, and become essentially ridden of all flaws. Once Ness conquers his nightmare, the Eight Sanctuaries bless him and he ties his own power to the Earth itself. He gains a massive boost and becomes the chosen one, ready to fight Giygas with only pure attributes. He has purged all of his fears, greed, and selfishness and replaced it with pure morale and devotion to eradicating the greatest evil of all time, and accepts his fate of potentially never returning back home regardless of the outcome against the embodiment of evil itself; Giygas.
So what exactly is to be drawn from this that makes Ness one of the most, if not the most powerful character?
 
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Diddy Kong

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Ness would do very good in a free for all, I'd agree. But 1 vs 1 he'll be beaten by Mewtwo and Samus me thinks. Mewtwo can just hit much harder, and likely will take advantage of his higher speed. Doubt that PSI Rocking would do much damage against him either, Mewtwo being a Psychic type and all. Psystrike however, will hit Ness really hard. He can also stall Ness far better. Mewtwo's far more powerful offense would certainly make up for his slightly less durability.

Who'd win between Mewtwo and Samus you guys think?

Also, Punch-Out doesn't say anything indeed. It should be noted though that DK is the toughest boss, and he doesn't even really look like he's trying that hard. Realistically, DK would easily beat Little Mac. Think that Diddy would beat him up to.
 
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Rocket Raccoon

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Ness would do very good in a free for all, I'd agree. But 1 vs 1 he'll be beaten by Mewtwo and Samus me thinks. Mewtwo can just hit much harder, and likely will take advantage of his higher speed. Doubt that PSI Rocking would do much damage against him either, Mewtwo being a Psychic type and all. Psystrike however, will hit Ness really hard. He can also stall Ness far better. Mewtwo's far more powerful offense would certainly make up for his slightly less durability.

Who'd win between Mewtwo and Samus you guys think?

Also, Punch-Out doesn't say anything indeed. It should be noted though that DK is the toughest boss, and he doesn't even really look like he's trying that hard. Realistically, DK would easily beat Little Mac. Think that Diddy would beat him up to.
In a perfect game of PO:W Little Mac DOES beat DK and Diddy being weaker than DK, it's safe to assume that Little Mac is (most likely) SuperHuman in some fashion.
 

Diddy Kong

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As I said before, DK doesn't even look like he's taking Little Mac serious. He's blowing kisses at the guy during the fight! He rarely does anything but taunting. Yet when he attacks, he can take out Mac in a few punches or so. The Kongs could take him out easily if they take the fight seriously.
 

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As I said before, DK doesn't even look like he's taking Little Mac serious. He's blowing kisses at the guy during the fight! He rarely does anything but taunting. Yet when he attacks, he can take out Mac in a few punches or so. The Kongs could take him out easily if they take the fight seriously.
So DK>Little Mac

What about Diddy vs. Little Mac
 

Diddy Kong

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Diddy?

Well, looking at his arsenal of jungle technology, extreme acrobatics and with strenght to boot it seems like an evenly enough match. Diddy wouldn't like getting punched by Little Mac, but he could brush it off by healing with 'banana power' or turn himself invincible by it. His main edge would be his weaponary, the Peanut Popguns and Orange Grenades, but no doubt his agility would be troublesome to! I mean, who the hell is able to dodge so many cannonballs like this?


Roughly starts from 01.20.

Without Diddy's weaponary, I think the match could be quite even. Even in Little Mac's favor slightly. But if Diddy has acces to everything, and especially his DK64 Rocket Barrel, Little Mac will be in big trouble. Even without it, Diddy could probably dodge most of Little Mac's attacks, and return blows with agility. Not sure how durable Little Mac is, but it could tire him out greatly, and boxers don't really like that.

It's a fun match to think about actually, cause Little Mac is definitely a character I wanna fight as Diddy badly in Smash 4. :awesome:
 
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Diddy Kong

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Are you trying to say that Little Mac is really weak?
No, he's not. But neither is Diddy. The guy also takes out many big crocs much bigger and heavier than himself, plus he's a real acrobat and in DK64, the Peanut Popguns nearly aren't as punny as they seem to be in Smash. Plus, they fire at quick rate and even track down enemies to ensure they hit. Then there's Orange Grenades, which are explosives in orange form. And of course the Barrel Rocket, which won't even make Little Mac reach Diddy.

Little Mac isn't weak. He's probably physically stronger than Diddy, but just outclassed by him.
 

Crystanium

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Who'd win between Mewtwo and Samus you guys think?
That depends. If we're going by canon, then the games take precedence. We could ignore the game mechanic of having only four attacks. The problem seems that these attacks are not at all quantifiable. Going down the list . . .

  • Confusion seems to be just a weaker version of Psychic. It's a weak, telekinetic force, so it seems whoever is hit by it will be thrown back. There's also a 10% chance of confusing the opponent. I don't see this being effective to take down Samus.
  • Disable prevents an attack from the moveset. How exactly does it work with regard to Samus' powered armor? What will it prevent Samus from doing? One description says it psychically prevents an attack.
  • Safeguard protects Mewtwo from status effects. What does that mean, though, and just how much of this effect can be prevented? If Mewtwo gets caught in a heatwave from a power bomb, does that mean he won't burn up? Would Safeguard be powerful enough to prevent that burning "effect"?
  • Swift is supposed to have 100% accuracy, but does this mean it can't miss (a no-limits fallacy), or does it mean it has a high accuracy? It can't affect those using Fly or Dig, so I'd go with the latter. It's described as a ray, so does it mean it's traveling light speed? If so, why would it miss those who use Fly? Since Samus can use Space Jump or just shinespark, wouldn't these essentially be Fly?
  • Future Sight takes time to set up. I guess the attack will deliver the same damage dealt to the user. I'm not sure how one is to take beam weapons in psychic form. Does that mean, for example, an attack that deals 4,184,000 joules will be delivered back at Samus?
  • I'm not sure what Psych Up actually does. If Samus' energy shield counts as Barrier, does this mean Mewtwo will receive this? How will it fair against the wave beam, which is capable of passing through transparent and translucent things like a psychic shield? Or the plasma beam, capable of also piercing through enemies?
  • Miracle Eye is supposed to allow evasive opponents to be hit without missing, it seems, but again, this probably just means hitting opponents with higher accuracy.
  • Psycho Cut sounds painful, but once again, how effective will this be? Samus has dealt with energy blades, and while she receives damage from them, it's not an instant win.
  • If I'm understanding this correctly, Power Swap normal and special attacks are mimicked to be the same as the foes. I have no idea what this means.
  • Guard Swap seems the same, only with defense.
  • Recover restores HP in-game, but what does that actually mean? Can Mewtwo regenerate a lost limb, for example? Or third-degree burns? Just how effective is this in healing?
  • Psychic seems better. The target is hit by a strong, telekinetic force. The problem is, Samus is capable of flying at high speeds without any ill-effects, so will throwing her around actually do anything to her? Or is it that she's protected by a blue, energy field and this protects her? Well, it doesn't seem to be quite the case, since beams could knock her out of it. Hm.
  • I suppose Barrier could act similarly to Samus' energy shield, but the problem is that the wave and plasma beams are capable of bypassing defenses.
  • Aura Sphere doesn't work on Pokemon who use Fly, so again, this could be countered with the Space Jump or shinespark.
  • It seems Amnesia seems to ignore concerns, thus reducing pain. It makes me think of meditation, where you can relax your body to the point nothing bothers you. Unfortunately for the user, this doesn't prevent damage.
  • I don't know how Mist is supposed to prevent status effects.
  • I don't know exactly how Me First is supposed to work against Samus' arsenal.
  • I have no idea what Psystrike is supposed to do to Samus. There's nothing to be quantified from the limited information.

So, do I think Mewtwo would win against Samus? Um, it doesn't look like it.
 
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Ogre_Deity_Link

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The problem with the Pokedex is that it's unreliable. So what if Arceus is supposed to be a god? It's based on hearsay, i.e., myths/legends. The same can be said of Giratina. Unless the Pokemon games aren't the first time Arceus is ever shown. If we're going by canon, then it's going to be important to use the original source, not an amalgamation of sources that could contradict each other. Either way, "god" doesn't mean anything. Only feats matter.

As for Pokemon trainers only being capable of bringing out one Pokemon at a time, that's not true. They can bring out all six Pokemon if they want. Game mechanics prevents this and as you can see, throughout the years, the games have allowed trainers to bring out more than one Pokemon. Since some element of realism is being added into the equation, this means the Pokemon trainer can bring out all six.

Another thing is that calling Giratina a god and a devil is in no way some sort of refutation. In your mind, Unbias, you might think it's a contradiction, but really, it's not. "Devil" comes from the Greek, diabolous, meaning "opponent", "adversary". The Hebrew being satan (pronounced "suh-tawn" in Hebrew, not "say-ten"). In fact, the literal translation for "Fierce Deity" in The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask is, "Devil-God Mask". If you're going by the Bible, in one instance, Yahweh is satan, that is, an adversary. (2 Sam. 24:1; 1 Chron. 21:1)
Wait, so Fierce Deity Link is the devil? 0_o

That's more terrifying than I thought.
 

Diddy Kong

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Psystrike is just, a real powerful attack. Definitely good to do damage with, not sure how many of these Samus would be able to take. The fact it basically 2-shots all legendary Pokémon that don't resist it is already quite a warning sign.

Recover heals up 50% of Mewtwo's max HP. So it's quite good. Not sure if you should take in account broken off limbs and the like, cause in Pokémon that just.. Doesn't happen. And neither did I see it happen much in Metroid.

Disable could potentially really, really **** with Samus's missiles, making her unable to use them. Or he could chose to eliminate her beam. With this attack, Mewtwo is able to choose which of his enemies's abilities he disables from being used. Against Samus, this could be quite fatal!

Reflect or Amnesia could also help Mewtwo tank hits much better. Let's assume, missiles are physical damage, beams are speacial damage. Well, Mewtwo could simply Disable one of them and set a shield that protects him from damage from the other, while keep tanking hits with Recover. Reflect for example would also greatly reduce the damage done by Screw Attack, or Speed Boost (may she even have time to set this one up).

So 4 moves really shouldn't be a problem for Mewtwo with this.

Outisde of all this. I think Mewtwo just has one, big, natural advantage: being Psychic. And being able to hit Samus through her armor, most likely- or just really **** around with her Power Suit from the inside. And if he's able to do so...

Another thing is that Samus often got Power Suit malfunctions, especially when assaulted, and being hit into walls. Psystrike could potentially do this with her I feel.
 

Crystanium

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Wait, so Fierce Deity Link is the devil? 0_o

That's more terrifying than I thought.
No, but it seems to be implied that Fierce Deity is actually just as evil as Majora when Majora wants to play with Link and have him wear the mask. In Christianity, "God" and "Devil" are opposites, but the Hebrew word satan, which in Greek is diabolous for "devil" can be used with reference to anyone who is your adversary. It's used numerous times in the Old Testament. Even David is regarded as satan/devil/adversary.

Psystrike is just, a real powerful attack. Definitely good to do damage with, not sure how many of these Samus would be able to take. The fact it basically 2-shots all legendary Pokémon that don't resist it is already quite a warning sign.
I'm not sure how that translates to realism, though. I can take down Mewtwo with Blastoise. There's the issue. Once again, Psystrike offers very little information.

Recover heals up 50% of Mewtwo's max HP. So it's quite good. Not sure if you should take in account broken off limbs and the like, cause in Pokémon that just.. Doesn't happen. And neither did I see it happen much in Metroid.
Hehe. Yeah, I know. In Metroid, the plasma beam, at least in Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime 3: Corruption is capable of vaporizing lightly armored Space Pirates. It takes 2.99 gigajoules to vaporize a human. Space Pirates are different than humans in that they can hang around in heated regions like Magmoor Caverns, where Samus even has trouble without the Varia Suit. Just being partially charged, the plasma beam vaporizes Space Pirates.

Then there are power bombs, which I calculated to be 28.86 tons of TNT, so I don't know how Mewtwo is going to protect himself from that.

Disable could potentially really, really **** with Samus's missiles, making her unable to use them. Or he could chose to eliminate her beam. With this attack, Mewtwo is able to choose which of his enemies's abilities he disables from being used. Against Samus, this could be quite fatal!
Does he get to choose, or is it random? From what I recall, it's based on a certain factor. One thing seems clear. The description says only one attack from a moveset can be disabled.

Reflect or Amnesia could also help Mewtwo tank hits much better. Let's assume, missiles are physical damage, beams are speacial damage. Well, Mewtwo could simply Disable one of them and set a shield that protects him from damage from the other, while keep tanking hits with Recover. Reflect for example would also greatly reduce the damage done by Screw Attack, or Speed Boost (may she even have time to set this one up).
I don't recall Reflect being part of what Mewtwo learns. We can't assume missiles are one attack and beams are another. This is only meaningful in the Pokeverse.

As for Screw Attack, that attack is pretty ridiculous. It can take down Gigafraugs and Dragotixs in one hit.

Outisde of all this. I think Mewtwo just has one, big, natural advantage: being Psychic. And being able to hit Samus through her armor, most likely- or just really **** around with her Power Suit from the inside. And if he's able to do so...
You'd have to prove that Mewtwo would do this in the first place. You can't ignore a character's character. But again, Samus deals with blunt attacks with no issue.

Another thing is that Samus often got Power Suit malfunctions, especially when assaulted, and being hit into walls. Psystrike could potentially do this with her I feel.
It's a plot device, which was done in the first two Metroid Prime games, but not in the third because Retro Studios felt it didn't need to be done every time. But even if you want to go with that, you'll have to consider the overpressure from the blast. Enclosed areas produce stronger overpressure. This, for example, is why you never want to go under an overpass when a tornado is approaching.

If you're going to use that to discount Samus' defenses, then you have to apply this to when Mother Brain uses her hyper beam and slams Samus against the wall, or when Ridley slams Samus against the wall during battle. The problem with Psystrike is that it doesn't have any information to tell us anything useful. Psycho Cut honestly sounds more impressive.
 

ChillySundance

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Huge Pokemon nerd here, so let me clear some stuff up for you guys since I see a lot of inaccurate guesswork relating to how some of these moves line up with their representation in the games. I honestly believe that Mewtwo is far, far more powerful than Samus. Does that mean Samus couldn't beat Mewtwo? Probably not. Samus is a protagonist and specializes in succeeding against vastly more powerful opponents. But if you put the two in a vacuum and compared their overall power/options, Mewtwo comes out on top.

Now on the topic of Pokemon Trainer and his little arsenal -

It's assumed that Legendary Pokemon don't use their unique abilities in battle because their trainers tell them not to.

Arceus may very well be able to think you out of existence as one of it's latent, legendary abilities, but it doesn't because whoever human it answers to won't allow it in the games themselves. Same goes for every other Pokemon that's capable of performing supernatural feats.

Celebi can travel freely through time. If Jojo's Bizarre Adventure taught us anything, it's that any power involving time shenanigans is pretty much the most OP ability ever. And then there's Palkia...a Pokemon who -controls- time.

Legendary Pokemon are made of nonsense and physicists tears.

@ the post above me. Mewtwo learns reflect as a TM move. It can learn Light Screen too, which is probably going to be more useful against Samus due to her reliance on energy beam attacks. Both of these skills don't actually reflect anything back, but instead reduce the damage dealt with physical or special moves by 50%

You also have to look at Mewtwo's stats and how they compare to other Pokemon in the same league.
Mewtwo, as a legendary Pokemon, boasts a whopping 154 BASE special attack and 130 speed. To put that into perspective, Latios, a Pokemon capable of moving at the speed of sound, only has around 115 speed, and Tyranitar, a Pokemon capable of leveling mountains when it has a tantrum, has a base attack of 135.

Mewtwo also has 106/90/90 defenses, which is nothing to sneeze at. Blastoise has defenses of 75/100/105. In general, HP makes up a larger portion of a Pokemon's overall defense, so...yep, Mewtwo is actually tankier than Blastoise, a Pokemon renowned for having balanced defenses. AND it hits harder to boot.

Soooo I really don't think we can go and compare Mewtwo to a space pirate.

Also, Disable will remove the last attack that the opponent used BEFORE disable is cast. So if Samus used her missles, and Mewtwo disabled it, she'd lose her missiles.

P.S. = Psystrike is just a more powerful, Mewtwo-specific version of Psyshock, which involves creating super-dense projectiles by compacting matter and then psychically slamming them into the foe like missiles. In Mewtwo's case though, he creates a shockwave. It has 100 base power as opposed to Psyshock's 80, but deals physical damage coming off a Pokemon's special attack stat. Typically Psyshock is used by special attackers who need a way to get around Pokemon who have special-oriented defenses (like Blissey) but have pathetic attack stats. I'd say Samus has a better chance of dealing with a physical attack like that then sustaining an actual Psychic assault.

Onto some of the other Pokemon moves you seem unsure about - Future sight is simply a delayed, but very powerful psychic attack. The user casts the skill, forgets about it, and then it blindsides the opponent when they least expect it. The important thing to remember is that a Pokemon can still do anything else while Future Sight is charging up, they just have to leave themselves open once in order to cast it.

Me First steals the attack that an opponent is just about to use and then uses it with higher power. So if Samus was planning on using a Charge Shot, Mewtwo would suddenly produce a charge shot of his own, most likely coming off a vastly superior special attack value. Pokemon are allowed to do these sorts of things for some reason.

Also, bringing up Fly, there's plenty of Pokemon moves that can hit targets that are removed from the arena. Mewtwo can learn Thunder, which does have a special property that allows it to hit airborn targets for double the usual damage, and while Samus does resist electricity pretty well, she's still able to be defeated by powerful electrical attacks given how many enemies in the Metroid universe use bioelectricity .

Mewtwo can also learn Gravity, a move that causes everyone in the arena to have the same attributes as if they were grounded, regardless of their type (it allows Earthquake to hit flying types, for example) as well as increases all accuracy to a perfect state. I'd consider that kind of like having to fight Nightmare in Metroid Fusion, and we all know how frustrating that was!
 
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Crystanium

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Mewtwo learns reflect as a TM move. It can learn Light Screen too, which is probably going to be more useful against Samus due to her reliance on energy beam attacks. Both of these skills don't actually reflect anything back, but instead reduce the damage dealt with physical or special moves by 50%
Mewtwo doesn't learn it on his own, however.

You also have to look at Mewtwo's stats and how they compare to other Pokemon in the same league.
Mewtwo, as a legendary Pokemon, boasts a whopping 154 BASE special attack and 130 speed. To put that into perspective, Latios, a Pokemon capable of moving at the speed of sound, only has around 115 speed, and Tyranitar, a Pokemon capable of leveling mountains when it has a tantrum, has a base attack of 135.
I've compared Dragonite's and Pidgeot's stats in terms of speed from Bulbapedia. It's the first site to pop up when I look up any Pokemon. I doubt the validity of the Pokedex, since it's never proved with visual evidence. For your sake, though, I'll demonstrate the problem with your method with using stats and the Pokedex. Dragonite can fly around Earth in 16 hours. Pidgeot can fly Mach 2. Here's the problem, though.

Low-end speed stat
Dragonite: 148
Pidgeot: 168

High-end speed stat
Dragonite: 284
Pidgeot: 309

The Earth has a circumference of 24,863 miles. 24,863 mi / 16 h = 1,554 mi/h, or Mach 2.02. Dragonite is faster, but the stats say otherwise. Pidgeot is always faster in terms of stats, but in terms of Pokedex evidence, Mach 2 (1,536 mi/h) is not faster than Mach 2.02 (1,551 mi/h). You say Latios can travel Mach 1. I looked up "jet plane" and Wikipedia gave me "Jet aircraft". I'm finding that jet aircrafts generally cruise at Mach 0.8. So I'll settle for Mach 1. Again, I'll do what I already did before.

Low-end speed stat
Latios: 202

High-end speed stat
Latios: 350

Latios' low-end stat is higher than Pidgeot's, but Latios can only travel Mach 1, according to you. Mach 1 is slower than Mach 2. The same is with the high-end stat. You either have to dismiss the Pokedex or the in-game stats. I dismiss the Pokedex on grounds that it's never visually observed. I dismiss in-game stats on grounds that they're a game mechanic. For you, however, you have to dismiss one or the other.

Soooo I really don't think we can go and compare Mewtwo to a space pirate.
This is a straw man. I never compared Mewtwo to a space pirate. What I did do, however, was demonstrate that the plasma beam will be delivering more than 2.99 gigajoules, so unless Mewtwo has ever demonstrated the ability to prevent this from happening, I'll wait for the evidence.

Also, Disable will remove the last attack that the opponent used BEFORE disable is cast. So if Samus used her missles, and Mewtwo disabled it, she'd lose her missiles.
Temporarily, but Samus has a variety of weapons at her disposal.

P.S. = Psystrike involves creating super-dense projectiles by compacting matter and then psychically slamming them into the foe like missiles. It has the same base power as Psychic, but deals physical damage coming off a Pokemon's special attack stat. Typically it's used by special attackers who need a way to get around Pokemon who have special-oriented defenses (like Blissey) but have pathetic attack stats. Consider it the same as being pelted with diamonds from all angles. I'd say Samus has a better chance of dealing with a physical attack like that then sustaining an actual Psychic assault.
Can you provide textual evidence that says Psystrike creates a super-dense projectile by compacting matter and then slamming it into foes? I'm not finding any data to quantify this.
 

Reader

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Mewtwo doesn't learn it on his own, however.



I've compared Dragonite's and Pidgeot's stats in terms of speed from Bulbapedia. It's the first site to pop up when I look up any Pokemon. I doubt the validity of the Pokedex, since it's never proved with visual evidence. For your sake, though, I'll demonstrate the problem with your method with using stats and the Pokedex. Dragonite can fly around Earth in 16 hours. Pidgeot can fly Mach 2. Here's the problem, though.

Low-end speed stat
Dragonite: 148
Pidgeot: 168

High-end speed stat
Dragonite: 284
Pidgeot: 309

The Earth has a circumference of 24,863 miles. 24,863 mi / 16 h = 1,554 mi/h, or Mach 2.02. Dragonite is faster, but the stats say otherwise. Pidgeot is always faster in terms of stats, but in terms of Pokedex evidence, Mach 2 (1,536 mi/h) is not faster than Mach 2.02 (1,551 mi/h). You say Latios can travel Mach 1. I looked up "jet plane" and Wikipedia gave me "Jet aircraft". I'm finding that jet aircrafts generally cruise at Mach 0.8. So I'll settle for Mach 1. Again, I'll do what I already did before.

Low-end speed stat
Latios: 202

High-end speed stat
Latios: 350

Latios' low-end stat is higher than Pidgeot's, but Latios can only travel Mach 1, according to you. Mach 1 is slower than Mach 2. The same is with the high-end stat. You either have to dismiss the Pokedex or the in-game stats. I dismiss the Pokedex on grounds that it's never visually observed. I dismiss in-game stats on grounds that they're a game mechanic. For you, however, you have to dismiss one or the other.
Speed stat determinates how quickly pokemon can attack in the game, not how fast they can move.
 

Diddy Kong

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Speed stat determinates how quickly pokemon can attack in the game, not how fast they can move.
Indeed. It could very well be that at top speeds certain Pokémon are faster than others. Also, a Dragonite is a quite high leveled Pokémon, as it's a fully evolved Dragonair, who evolves at like... level 55? I remember Latios being encountered in the wild at like level 40. And Pidgeot might be a very easy 'accesable' Pokémon, so more research could have been done, as well as capturing more powerful ones (Pidgeys after all, are very common).
 
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