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I didn't take the Peach Beam into account when making my arguments, largely 'cause it seems like a one-off thing and really circumstantial.
Link is a stronger character than Marth and Ike. Golden gauntlets give him power greater than the emblemiers. Link has much more power in his swings to beat Ike and Marth. Link is more skilled, is stronger, and has a greater arsenal of weaponry. Marth and Ike may be able to hurt Ganondorf, but just like Link, they probably won't be able to do it by themselves. OoT Link is a more powerful character than emblemiers. In fire emblem you have a whole army of soldiers, take this into account. I haven't played Ike or Marths games yet, so don't piss all over me about this. If Marth or Ike get help with that boss you just said, then there will be a problem with argument.With regards to FE characters, Marth, while being slimmer but altogether faster than Ike, could potentially kill Ganondorf, it simply wouldn't be one blow of raw power since he cannot produce as much power as Ike can. What needs to be remembered is that Marth in his own games kills Medeus both in his earth and dark dragon forms, so Marth definitely has the fighting skill to eliminate extremely powerful dark forces. So he could potentially kill Ganondorf in my mind.
Ike's matchup against Ganondorf I feel would be even easier, since as @ChunkyBeef mentioned, Ike has serious raw power and in his games is able to defeat Ashera, who is literally the Goddess over Tellius in Radiant Dawn (granted, this was done with additional divine empowerment aside from the divinity provided by Ragnell). Since Ganondorf is not at the level of a God, and can be slain by divine weaponry, I imagine Ike would definitely be more than a match for Ganondorf. (After all, Link is able to clash somewhat evenly (sword-wise) against Ganondorf in Twilight Princess, and he is weaker than Ike is, physically).
It seems to me that the only thing that would put Link above Marth and Ike is the Golden Gauntlets, really, if it wasn't for them then Link wouldn't be stronger than Ike and probably even with Marth in terms of strength. On another note, the Golden Gauntlets do not magically increase Link's overall fighting skill, so there's no proof that he automatically is "more skilled" as you say, than Marth or Ike (yes he kills giant bosses, but often the bosses are made vulnerable by some additional piece of equipment that Link has and then Link deals damage with his sword, he doesn't just swing his sword at the boss and kill them). Also, Ike could definitely do it by himself (in my opinion) since in his games, he takes on the Black Knight and defeats him one on one although the Black Knight has Alondite, a blessed sword, and blessed armor and a great amount of skill and power that make him a literal walking tank.
There's nothing about the Golden Gauntlets that insists that it does anything for Link's strength. It increases Link's lifting power, not his actual strength. There's no indicator it's an offensive item, it doesn't increase his attack power. There's no indicator it's an defensive item, it doesn't increase his defense power. All the Golden Gauntlets let Link do is lift up those weird black granite obstacles. The Golden Gauntlet acts exactly like similar items in its vein, like Titan's Mitt.
Because Marth defeats this:Come on, how can this guy.
Ever defeat this guy.
He must have cheated to win.Because Marth defeats this:
Twice.
Actually it's 50% chance according to the timelines.
Actually, the events of A Link to the Past start.
I get what your saying, but I'm judging it by the latest canon entry with Ganondorf (TP) so he seems pretty unaffected to any weapon except the master sword. Midna's super powerful relics do Jack squat to him, the sages sword doesn't do much and if you use the Ordon sword against him in the Final fight and win/stab him in the scar he pushes Link right off and continues to fight. Unless the player uses the master sword the battle would last until the player/Link loses.
Your right, my bad gotta read my Hyrule historia again... Lol
I don't see why not. Like we've argued before, even if some people prefer to ignore it, the Falchion acts similarly in origin and functionality to the Master Sword. If Marth can defeat Medeus twice, I'd say Link has a real strong chance.
I didn't say the golden gauntlets give him more skill, they just give him more power in his blows. How can he gain more lifting power but not swinging/slashing/thrusting power in his sword.
Magic. That's just how magic do.
Nope.
I just came up with another argument. Although these swords do have enough power to hurt and maybe even kill Ganondorf, they were made to target a specific type of enemy. The FE sacred sword thing may not work as well against Ganondorf as it does against Madeousesilicious and the master sword may not work as well against Madeilciouesesness as it does against Ganondorf. I'm not saying that I agree with all of this, but I'm just putting this cheap argument out there.
Link killed Ganondorf without Zelda's help no problem.Also Zelda didn't even help Link defeat Ganon, all she did was help seal him, Ganon would still be defeated, he's just impossible to kill, much like Link. The spirit of demise would continue to come back in some form, the sages just bought Link more time. Also Ganondorf in Twilight Princess is just as powerful as OoT Ganon. For the reason of experience, just like you said, Ganon also has generations of experience. As we know that Vaati has the same spirit of Demise within him too.
There's plenty of evidence that Pokedex entries are fabricated and that the actual strength of Pokemon is grossly exaggerated. Why are there Pokemon that can apparently control space and time, emotions, all kinds of things when they never actually do? Groudon and Kyogre are considered legendaries because they create sunlight and rain, but who cares? There are Pokemon that do that without batting an eyelash, and they're presumably considerably weaker. Rayquaza has the natural ability to lock weather effects, but so what? So can Golduck. Why can a presumably omnipotent 'creator of all Pokemon' be captured, tamed and fed cupcakes by a ten year old boy/girl? Because they're not actually as powerful as they're made out to be.
Yeah but realistically do you think Mewtwo can be defeated by Jigglypuff? There's an obvious answer to that
It is possible, as long as Jigglypuff has a higher level and better EVs, he can potentially defeat Mewtwo
When it comes to the mansion on Cinnabar island, Mewtwo was scared and he just wanted to get away. He was also really new to his powers. He could have been level 5 for all we know. But as for the legendaries, they want to be caught. In most games the legendaries give the trainer a chance because they felt they were worthy. There is a reason why only the protagonist/n truly caught them. The other organizations need to use some sort of machine. Also pokeballs are very advanced and is in one of the most advanced civilizations in nintendo history. And pokemon are animals, compared to the technology.
In the realm of Smash Brothers, it's possible, 'cause that's just how it works.
Pidgeot flies at Mach 2. That's 1,540 MPH.
Heracross weighs 119 lbs., so it can lift 119,000 lbs, or about 60 tons. It can almost single-handedly lift the space shuttle. Forget using enormous moving equipment to move that space shuttle, guys, just grab a couple Heracross!
It can flip a fifty ton tank? It can literally lift and flip a fifty ton tank? That's the equivalent of lifting and flipping FIFTY GROUDON ALL AT ONCE.
JESUS H. CHRIST ON A CRACKER, GARDEVOIR MAKES BLACK HOLES IF ITS TRAINER IS IN DANGER!?
Yes, Pyroar generates fire breath that's ALMOST THREE TIMES MORE POWERFUL than Charizard's! PYROAR GENERATES HEAT EQUAL TO THE SURFACE OF THE FRIGGIN' SUN!
Dragalge has a poison it can spit at you that can dissolve you in minutes if it gets on you. Worse, it shoots it INDISCRIMINATELY at ANYTHING IT DAMN WELL PLEASES.
So, it's enough to essentially put a hole into you if it wants to.
Yeah, the Pokeball is some sophisticated technology, not especially if they can make different kinds to suit different levels of income that have different and varying levels of effectiveness.
So what do you think of my Sonic Theory? There's no way he would lose canonwise unless you've heard of Sonic Labyrinth (WORST SONIC GAME EVER)
I'd have to actually do some research into it. There's already a ton of evidence of Sonic not actually being as fast as he's made out to be, and if we ignore the comics version of Sonic and just consider the game version, we're working with a far weaker and less intimidating Sonic. Similarly, a lot of Smashers could feasibly beat Sonic, it all probably boils down to reaction time and who can outlast the inevitable Super Sonic transformation. Since it typically only lasts about 50 seconds (if we consider how many rings you need for the transformation in the old school games), I'd say Sonic's odds of topping the list aren't as good as it seems to be on paper.
If they are killed, sealed away, or made incapable of fighting for extremely long periods of time, then it counts as a defeat. We can only count one incarnation of demise, since other villains are not the same entity/being/person as Ganondorf. You can't just say that Ganondorf will come back as Vaati because he already existed before Ganondorf. You also can't say that he will be resurrected in about one hundred or five years since he has already been killed. Either way, Link could have killed Ganondorf by himself in OoT, but his chances of winning would have been lowered below Ganons without Zelda. The strength and skill depends on the incarnation of Link. As I said before NES and LttP Link are probably the strongest yet, but they are not playable.
How do you explain suicune in crystal? This pokemon helps you throughout your adventure, and then finally stands still to give you a chance to capture it. Of course the pokemon want to put up a fight, that's to see you are worthy, but they will give you a chance because of the things you did in-game. It's a challenge to them yes, but they want to be challenged. There is also dialogue in game to prove it.
Well if Ganons sword or trident is like the master sword, kirby would burn up, from exposure. The dark energy would also be too much for kirby to consume. Also kirby actually eating Ganondorf is slim, Gabondorf can just float above kirby, and kirby can't suck and fly at the same time. There are also powers of teleportation, and there's the fact that kirby is sort of weak health wise. Touching a waddle dee does a considerable amount of health, so Ganondorf's energy blast would do a lot to him. Also what you guys are all forgetting is the triforce trio can just cover the land in some fashion(Ganondorf can do it on will, but Zelda and Link could probably use the triforce and or the energy from the broken mirror of twilight. Everyone either turns into spirits and or monsters, and it's a pretty easy win. Plus there is the sacred realm/dark world and lorule, also link has time travel and warping skills, if the fight isn't going well, he can leave and recuperate.)
Suicune:
Cynthia can tell the feelings of pokemon, it's very similar to N, who can actually talk to pokemon. Plus legendaries are a lot smarter than your average pokemon, it's like when Ho-Oh saw the dead pokemon on burned tower, and resurrected them into the 3 legendary dogs. It's like how raquazza noticed that groudon and kyogre fighting could destroy the world, so it intervened. It's like how the three lake pokemon helped your character in the distortion world in platinum. It's like how the three justice pokemon presented themselves to the protagonist in black and white 2, even though they hate humans. They literally came up to your character to help you. It's like how Lugia sealed himself away to prevent his misuse. It's like how Mewtwo went into hiding, to get away from people. It's like how Zekrom/Reshiram literally come out to you to help your battle against N. Reshiram/Zekrom tells N that pokemon are better off with trainers. How do you explain all of that? These pokemon are smart, and they know what goes on and are aware of it. They are aware that they are being caught, and they want to be caught as long as they are worthy.
Practically everything that the Pokedex says is done, or flavor text/history says is done, by a Pokemon usually has no evidence to back it up. We rarely see these things happen in game, and things that DO happen are kinda lackluster.
We never see this happen, this is just hearsay. It's one thing to say 'Oh, it has the power to revive things!', but it's another to see it happen. People are just like 'Gosh, the legendary dogs came out of the burned tower, so they must have been resurrected by Ho-Oh, glory be!', when the reality is that they were likely there all along. I mean, how does anyone know that three Pokemon died in the fire? The legend says that Ho-Oh returns immediately after the fire is put out, so.. yeah, I mean, really.
Ah, one of the few things that we actually get to see! As I said before, Pokemon summoning sunshine and rain isn't particularly impressive, but it's worth noting that Rayquaza only notices Kyogre and Groudon fighting because the protagonist literally walks up to Rayquaza, wakes it up and is all like 'Yo, your kids are fighting, go break that **** up before they become minor inconveniences.'.
This I'll give you. Why the hell are they even there? Be right back, gonna hit the books.
I'm genuinely exhausted here and the information is going to require more information than I'm willing to dig up, so I'll give you this one.
Most of this evidence is circumstantial and plot related. Like I said, there's exceptions to the rules and some of them are here. The Legendary Pokemon are smart, I'll give you that, smart enough to want to get caught by someone worthy (and who has millions of Pokedollars to spend on Pokeballs, apparently).. but not all of them do. Mewtwo fights you tooth and nail, as do Groudon, Rayquaza and Kyogre, among many others.
If it specifically states it, in game, it is canon. For the legendary dogs, it's stated specifically how they are created, and fans speculate that those pokemon were evee's too. Just because we didn't see Hylia create skyloft, doesn't mean she isn't created. Just because we don't see the Chozo make the structures an building in metroid prime, doesn't make them non-chozoian. As for why they are running around at other places, we can assume all the protagonists release their legendaries once their adventure is over. Also each pokemon game is in it's own parallel world. There is only one arceus, yet you can see them if you look at other trainers. Each pokemon game is it's own parallel world and can be grouped like so. Red and silver, blue and gold, crystal and yellow. These games are actually sort of sequels to each other, yet they are parallels. This is sort of a same concept as with the zelda timeline. It goes the same for each and every pokemon game, how else could you have multiple Gary's, N's, ect.Practically everything that the Pokedex says is done, or flavor text/history says is done, by a Pokemon usually has no evidence to back it up. We rarely see these things happen in game, and things that DO happen are kinda lackluster.
We never see this happen, this is just hearsay. It's one thing to say 'Oh, it has the power to revive things!', but it's another to see it happen. People are just like 'Gosh, the legendary dogs came out of the burned tower, so they must have been resurrected by Ho-Oh, glory be!', when the reality is that they were likely there all along. I mean, how does anyone know that three Pokemon died in the fire? The legend says that Ho-Oh returns immediately after the fire is put out, so.. yeah, I mean, really.
Not to mention, the tower burns down ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY YEARS before the events of Gold/Silver/Crystal, so who would seriously know? There's no evidence AGAINST Ho-Oh reviving three dead Pokemon into the Legendary Dogs, but if we assume Gold canonically captures Suicune, Raikou and Entei..
.. why the hell are they running around Kalos? The timeline goes like this:
Just more evidence that the legendary dogs existed long before the Burned Tower's infamous fire, and they are, apparently, not unique.. and I doubt Ho-Oh's flyin' all over the world indiscriminately reviving dead Pokemon into Legendary Dogs.
Ah, one of the few things that we actually get to see! As I said before, Pokemon summoning sunshine and rain isn't particularly impressive, but it's worth noting that Rayquaza only notices Kyogre and Groudon fighting because the protagonist literally walks up to Rayquaza, wakes it up and is all like 'Yo, your kids are fighting, go break that **** up before they become minor inconveniences.'.
This I'll give you. Why the hell are they even there? Be right back, gonna hit the books.
...
I checked into this. After further research, it shows they show up to help the protagonist because they're literally right there and can float right in and out of the Distortion World. Plus, they help you out a little bit with a puzzle and wander off. Uh, interesting, I guess? Not particularly impressive, but interesting? Plus, I also noticed something interesting: the lake trio are clearly not particularly as powerful as they're made out to be if they can't control Dialga AND Palkia. Chalk another one up for me!
I'm genuinely exhausted here and the information is going to require more information than I'm willing to dig up, so I'll give you this one.
Most of this evidence is circumstantial and plot related. Like I said, there's exceptions to the rules and some of them are here. The Legendary Pokemon are smart, I'll give you that, smart enough to want to get caught by someone worthy (and who has millions of Pokedollars to spend on Pokeballs, apparently).. but not all of them do. Mewtwo fights you tooth and nail, as do Groudon, Rayquaza and Kyogre, among many others.
That still doesn't really give us any evidence that Pokemon are as strong as they're lauded to be. I'm willing to admit that they're clearly strong enough to be used in war, since the history mentions SEVERAL wars, and NPC's hint at them in-game as well. So they probably have destructive prowess topping out around the kind of damage output of tanks, artillery and helicopters, because there's no hints I can recall that these are really used in said wars.
If there were tanks, Chesnaught probably tackled 'em all over, right?
That's not necessarily true. You use the Skyloft/Hylia comparison, but we have EVIDENCE THAT THIS OCCURS. We have legitimate proof that the Goddesses have done things and because we have that evidence, we don't have to see it happen because it's assumed. They're omnipotent. They have power. We have proof that they did things. The Triforce, the Master Sword, the Hylian Shield, Nayru's Love/Din's Fire/Farore's Wind, all of these things and more all exist as evidence. These are all things that no-one else really has the power to create but the Goddesses in that lore.
A little peeved? They're proclaimed to be forces of nature, but you can still stuff them into a ball. I'd be more pissed someone was trying to enslave me, especially if I could create earthquakes or water spouts for giggles.
As I said before, Red has only cought the original 151. Since there is no real or accurate canon for Pokemon Trainer, I thinks it's safe to say that he's the trophy worlds version of Red. He should also be able to use gen 1 pokemon that evolve in later generations.
