Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Rabbattack]

Mmk. What I already have is just an enormous file as it is (some several pages already), so I'll post it when I get it done. It's gonna be friggin' massive.



Thing is, the Star Rod doesn't utilize holy energy. Nothing I can find about the Star Rod hints at it being holy. It just shoots stars. If we assume those stars are any kind of energy that's not, y'know, plasma, then it's probably pure light energy in the basic shape of a star, which DOES hurt Ganondorf. Funnily enough, the Master Sword makes no mention of it being legitimately holy. It IS forged by divinity, which might explain why evil can't touch it and it's considered 'The Sword of Evil's Bane', but for the most part, everything points at the blade simply being magical in nature and divinely enchanted to specifically ward away evil.

The list of things that can beat Ganon/Ganondorf actually grows quite a bit. He's hurt by light, holy energy, divinely imbued weapons and magic.

So if we're discussing which Smashers can feasibly beat Ganondorf that AREN'T Link and Zelda, I'd say Kirby and Pit are on that list no problem. We can also say Fox, Falco and Wolf have fair odds using blasters (because what is a laser if not weaponized light?).

Samus could also hurt him. Though none of the descriptions say anything about what kind of projectile is fired (that I can find, anyway), the Power Beam likely fires pellets of focused light in a similar vein to the Space Animal's lasers do. Since the Power Beam generates light in the Prime games, I'll assume this is the case until proven otherwise. So, Samus's normal ol' Power Beam can do damage to Ganondorf, and that's not even considering all the upgrades that Samus has in any given game. The Plasma Beam alone should be enough light and heat to obliterate Ganon OR Ganondorf. Here's why:



Samus's Plasma Beam legitimately seems to be magnetically generated plasma utilizing hydrogen isotopes, and the results are weaponized. Holy. Crap. So, what does the Metroid games say about the Plasma Beam?



The Chozo were so advanced they figured out a way to weaponize PLASMA. Technically, Samus might be one of the strongest legitimate contender for the number one spot.

Anyway, assuming that Naga was legitimately divine (I'm leaning toward this being the case, because Naga is a 'Divine Dragon' and I can't find any information AGAINST Naga being legitimately divine, and all the information points to her being omnipotent regardless), then Marth (and, if he winds up in, Chrom) can harm and kill Ganon/Ganondorf, as the Falchion was created from a piece of Naga. More specifically, a fang. Tooth or no, divine is still divine. Ike can also harm and kill Ganon/Ganondorf, because Ragnell is also divine/holy.



So, there you have it. The list of characters in Smash that can feasibly AT LEAST harm Ganon/Ganondorf in some kind of capacity, if not kill him outright:

Fox, Wolf, Falco, Samus, Pit, Kirby (w/ Star Rod), Marth (Chrom/Lucina), Ike, Link and Zelda.

Although many of these characters can hurt them, most of them can't kill him. They lack the skill or power to defeat him. Both incarnations of Zelda can't kill/imprison him without Links help. All three incarnations of adult Link can't kill/imprison him without Zeldas help. I'm pretty sure FE and SF characters don't strong enough. Compared to Ganons skill and power, Fox, his friends, and the emblemiers don't strong enough. Ganon is stronger than a normal human with a magic sword, he beat Link when had his holy weapon, Marth, Ike, Roy don't stand chance. Tiny lazers won't be enough to stop him. Samus has armor, better plasma weapons, ice missiles. missile stun ganon not kill. I'm not sure how phazon and fusion suit will help her in battle. de end.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

Although many of these characters can hurt them, most of them can't kill him. They lack the skill or power to defeat him. Both incarnations of Zelda can't kill/imprison him without Links help. All three incarnations of adult Link can't kill/imprison him without Zeldas help. I'm pretty sure FE and SF characters don't strong enough. Compared to Ganons skill and power, Fox, his friends, and the emblemiers don't strong enough. Ganon is stronger than a normal human with a magic sword, he beat Link when had his holy weapon, Marth, Ike, Roy don't stand chance. Tiny lazers won't be enough to stop him. Samus has armor, better plasma weapons, ice missiles. missile stun ganon not kill. I'm not sure how phazon and fusion suit will help her in battle. de end.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on some of these. Marth may not have the raw power to kill Ganondorf, but Ike most certainly does. The reason why I label the Space Animals as potential opponents is because their blasters utilize lasers, which is essentially, at its basest form, weaponized light. They don't really have to get in close, just blast him to death from range. I actually forgot all about Roy, but I'm way too lazy to look up Roy's weapon.

But yeah, I wanted to go more in depth about Samus's advantages, but that would've taken forever.

As for Link and Zelda, Link has clearly shown he can defeat Ganon/Ganondorf without help. I mean, he does it in Legend of Zelda for NES, Skyward Sword and A Link to the Past. If he can do it in those games, there's no legitimate reason he can't do it again without Zelda's help.I think Zelda would have trouble, though, so I can at least agree with you here. If she was proficient at destroying Ganondorf by herself there'd have been no need for Link.

 

[Deleted member]

With regards to FE characters, Marth, while being slimmer but altogether faster than Ike, could potentially kill Ganondorf, it simply wouldn't be one blow of raw power since he cannot produce as much power as Ike can. What needs to be remembered is that Marth in his own games kills Medeus both in his earth and dark dragon forms, so Marth definitely has the fighting skill to eliminate extremely powerful dark forces. So he could potentially kill Ganondorf in my mind.

Ike's matchup against Ganondorf I feel would be even easier, since as @ ChunkyBeef mentioned, Ike has serious raw power and in his games is able to defeat Ashera, who is literally the Goddess over Tellius in Radiant Dawn (granted, this was done with additional divine empowerment aside from the divinity provided by Ragnell). Since Ganondorf is not at the level of a God, and can be slain by divine weaponry, I imagine Ike would definitely be more than a match for Ganondorf. (After all, Link is able to clash somewhat evenly (sword-wise) against Ganondorf in Twilight Princess, and he is weaker than Ike is, physically).

 

[RelaxAlax]

Ganondorf has slumped demi-Gods. I don't think anyone can truly defeat Ganondorf - as he never is truly completely defeated, merely sealed. But perhaps they do have as much strength as Link to do so. Ganondorf isn't exactly an easy kill. His TP incarnation possesses Zelda, goes beast form, then returns as a human WITH summoned enemies to defend himself on horseback.

Then again, it's what you want to go by. We could go the stern but true route of saying only the Master Sword and that Holy Sword can affect Ganon, while Light Arrows stun him, for lack of a better word. Or we can find a loophole and state he can be effected by any holy/divine weapon or weapon of light and it's only Hyrules ignorance to such weapons that they rely on the Master Sword. If we're going canonical, I say stay the story route. It makes it less confusing, and even still, Ganondorf comes out pretty high regardless.

Speaking of which, how would Ness fare againest him? Isn't Gigyas sorta of the same beast as Ganon?

 

[Tremendo Dude]

Ness doesn't have much in the way of holy weaponry, and was, in fact, almost powerless against Giygas. It was Paula who was able to call forth the strength needed to beat Giygas through sheer prayer, which damaged Giygas through the will of all those that Ness's party had encountered and helped throughout their adventure.

Canonically, Ness alone is rather powerful but acts more as a support for his party. Unless Ganondorf was susceptible to PK Flash's OHKO ability, I would think he would have a rather tough time against him. Though he can certainly last long, especially with his healing abilities and his HP mechanics allowing him to easily recover from fatal blows.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

Ganondorf has slumped demi-Gods. I don't think anyone can truly defeat Ganondorf - as he never is truly completely defeated, merely sealed. But perhaps they do have as much strength as Link to do so. Ganondorf isn't exactly an easy kill. His TP incarnation possesses Zelda, goes beast form, then returns as a human WITH summoned enemies to defend himself on horseback.

Then again, it's what you want to go by. We could go the stern but true route of saying only the Master Sword and that Holy Sword can affect Ganon, while Light Arrows stun him, for lack of a better word. Or we can find a loophole and state he can be effected by any holy/divine weapon or weapon of light and it's only Hyrules ignorance to such weapons that they rely on the Master Sword. If we're going canonical, I say stay the story route. It makes it less confusing, and even still, Ganondorf comes out pretty high regardless.

I just assume everyone's capable of dying. Ganondorf is just one of those guys who's going to persist even through death. Ganondorf is stupid powerful, yeah, but it's naive to think that only Link and Ike have a chance of legitimately defeating the guy. Even if he's not capable of dying, just getting him to back off is probably enough to chalk up a victory.

Speaking of which, how would Ness fare againest him? Isn't Gigyas sorta of the same beast as Ganon?

Well, that's a bit of a conundrum, actually. Giygas is described thusly:

Known as both the "Embodiment of Evil" and the "Universal Cosmic Destroyer", Giygas is an evil alien who intends to sentence all of reality to the horror of infinite darkness.

It also doesn't help that they never really defeat Giygas. In both Mother and Mother 2/Earthbound, Giygas is defeated with gimmicks (singing and praying, respectively). So it's hard to really classify Giygas in terms of power, and it's hard to attribute the feat to Ness outside the psychological realm because he never really takes part in the defeat 'cept maybe to pray, y'know? XGShadowstar explains it more concisely.

Ness doesn't have much in the way of holy weaponry, and was, in fact, almost powerless against Giygas. It was Paula who was able to call forth the strength needed to beat Giygas through sheer prayer, which damaged Giygas through the will of all those that Ness's party had encountered and helped throughout their adventure.

Canonically, Ness alone is rather powerful but acts more as a support for his party. Unless Ganondorf was susceptible to PK Flash's OHKO ability, I would think he would have a rather tough time against him. Though he can certainly last long, especially with his healing abilities and his HP mechanics allowing him to easily recover from fatal blows.

That's a good point there, really. PK Flash's OHKO ability could potentially defeat ANY opponent. I thought maybe the Gutsy Bat might give Ness an edge over Ganondorf, but I can't find the flavor text for it, though I doubt that's going to say anything about holiness and the like.

 

[Tremendo Dude]

That's a good point there, really. PK Flash's OHKO ability could potentially defeat ANY opponent. I thought maybe the Gutsy Bat might give Ness an edge over Ganondorf, but I can't find the flavor text for it, though I doubt that's going to say anything about holiness and the like.

Potentially, yes. The odds of the OHKO effect occurring at the highest rank, though, assuming that the target is even susceptible to it, are 40%. Otherwise, the target will start crying uncontrollably (lowering their accuracy), feel "strange" (causing them to occasionally attack allies), or turn numb (preventing all movement). I guess the other effects would buy time for the OHKO, though.

Most boss enemies tend to have the nasty ability to be immune to OHKO techniques, though. I guess that's more of a meta thing than anything else, and probably wouldn't apply here, but it's a funny thing to consider.

As for the Gutsy Bat, I don't know too much about it myself. Looking at what it does for Ness, though, I don't think it'd give him much of an edge besides the boosted crit rate or resistance to mortal blows. He'd probably do more damage with his PSI abilities than with his melee attacks, if weapons without holy, light, or divine attributes are not very effective.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Wow good explanations guys

Yeah, I believe Ganondorf is up there, but after learning a lot from this thread it appears that he could be beaten by many others, hypothetically. So,are handling this in the sense of matchups? And, whoever has the least amount of losing matchups should be deemed canonically the "strongest"?

 

[ChunkyBeef]

So,are handling this in the sense of matchups? And, whoever has the least amount of losing matchups should be deemed canonically the "strongest"?

That's essentially the idea, yeah. Unfortunately, it's probably going to be tough to crown a winner 'cause there's several characters in Smash that have enormous advantage over most of the roster. Plus, there's a bit of a heated debate over what kind of power Ness and Lucas has, and Mewtwo is also lumped in there as well. I tried to argue that Ness, Lucas and Mewtwo are the highest on a hypothetical list, but people didn't seem to receive it too well, unfortunately.

 

[RelaxAlax]

I've been away from this thread for awhile, cause i was caught up in a bit, but I love the idea of discussing this stuff, and it's a good history lesson for sure.

The way I see it, there should be tiers for characters that have these enormous gaps from the rest of them. And i get what you mean with the tediousness of Ness, Lucas and Mewtwo. I see them very high and on the same level as Ganondorf in terms of levels above the rest of the cast. But I only know the basics of why they're so strong, Mewtwo especially.

What are your views on Kirby, Samus and Pit - some other candidates for high spots?

 

[ChunkyBeef]

What are your views on Kirby, Samus and Pit - some other candidates for high spots?

Well, Kirby is naturally a powerful fighter. He's no stranger to tackling all kinds of enemies, big and small, so he's a bit like a pink, adorable, puffball Link. A lot of his copy powers are just ridiculous in potential. For example, if you take Megaton Punch, a mini-game in Kirby Super Star, as canon, Fighter Kirby can punch with enough force to crack a planet straight in half. So figuring out Kirby's actual power is a bit of a task. Do you allow Kirby to have generic Copy Powers from other Smashers he inhales? Do we approach Kirby's Copy Powers like they do in Smash, where he essentially samples their power? How much power does he sample? A single B button move doesn't really justify a Copy Power, when Kirby gets entirely new movesets and powers from plain ol' Copy Powers from normal Kirby enemies. What kinds of items should Kirby have access to in a battle? Those are things we'd have to line up before we can begin figuring out Kirby's place on a tier list of canon power, but in most instances he'd be up there quite high.

Samus is easier to figure out, since most of her powerups are recurring throughout the series.. but most of those powerups are OP as hell. Varia Suit essentially makes her invincible to extremes in temperature. Gravity Suit makes it so changes in gravity don't affect her, and she runs in water as if it wasn't even there. Most of her beams are ridiculous: Wave Beam pierces walls. Plasma Beam is so hot it pierces ENEMIES. Charge Beam's strength makes her attacks stronger than missiles. Missiles/Super Missiles/Ice Missiles/Super Ice Missiles are extremely potent ordnance. Space Jump essentially lets Samus fly when it's needed, and Screw Attack is probably only second in power to the Plasma Beam canonically. So, it kinda boils down to which incarnation we use. Do we use her chronologically last incarnation from Fusion? Her most popular one from Super Metroid? The Samus from the Prime trilogy? Does she have access to all those things regardless?

Pit has a lot of assistance that he has access to pretty much anywhere. Health isn't often a problem, 'cause both Viridi and Palutena show us they can drop down mundane food that, for some reason, heals Pit. Both of them allow Pit to fly, though for 'five minutes at a time'. Can we really give Pit that restriction, though? The five minutes excuse was mostly used as a way to keep the flight to a minimum in Uprising, and as a dramatic plot point everyone saw coming a mile away. Having said that, Pit comes with some interesting questions. Do we just give him Palutena's Bow? Do we allow him access to a bunch of different weapons, like his Brawl incarnation? Do we allow him to fly longer than five minutes at a time?

So, honestly, a lot of questions have to get answered before we can go about making decisions on who's canonically the strongest. Though, I'd say that Samus probably has the advantage out of all of them, 'cause Kirby may be strong, but if we go by canon, as the title of the thread insists, Kirby is something like eight inches tall and thus not a particularly amazing threat. We also have to consider that if Kirby is eight inches tall, Popstar might not be all that big in comparison and so his impressive Popstar-splitting feat mentioned earlier from Megaton Punch isn't all that impressive. Still, there's evidence that Popstar is as big as Earth thanks to Crystal Shards, so who knows? It's anyone's guess.

tl;dr: Samus -> Pit -> Kirby.

 

[Garrett14]

@ ChunkyBeef

Man, if you had that much knowledge on the metroid powers, I can't wait to see how much info that file of yours has.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

I read thorough this entire thread! Good stuff.

I think the top 3 would be;

Ganon
Mewtwo
Ness

But I think people are underestimating Ganondorf a little.

As shown in TP he gets stabbed through the chest by the sages sword and not only survived but completely obliterates one of the sages (who are a kind-of Demi-gods) with a single punch. So I don't think holy weapons do much to him only the Master sword can kill him.

Also in TP he takes over Zelda's mind and than posses her, which shows Ganon has some strong psychic abilities of his own (remember Zelda has also a part of the Triforce, of wisdom in fact! so I believe her mind must be powerful)

In A link to the Past he creates his own parallel dimension and his own minions (pretty much every game he is in he creates minions) powerful ones in fact. proving he has power of creation.

In TP he shows his ability to teleport, an become a mass of pure energy that can withstand very powerful artifacts that rival the gods powers that are wielded by Midna, and than he survives a whole castle crashing on him.

He also shows he can revive from the dead. Stalfos, the "skeleton dragon boss" and he summons spirits on horseback to attack link.

He is also shown to corrupt whole areas and to corrupt and turn things, creatures and people evil that would other wise be good or passive. Goron Master, Baboon Boss etc.

In TP he is 7 feet and 6 inches (which by assumption means he probably weighes at least 400+ pounds) quite huge! And still moves massively fast while fighting Link. And let's not forget his Ganon/beast form which gives him massive amounts of power.

Also without the scar/wound the sages gave him (convenient for Zelda game mechanics) right before he received the Triforce of power. Link would probably had a much more difficult time fighting him.

All in all, Ganondorf is not a "person" anyone should mess around with.

^this is an earlier posts of mine,describing Ganon's feats.

All you guys that think Ganon can be defeated by holy weapons are wrong.

In TP he gets stabbed through the chest by a holy/divine weapon, before the gods give him the Triforce of power, and after he revives from the brink of death pulls the sword out and punches a sage (who are "undead" Demi-gods of sorts) into nothing (most of the cast would not survive even a punch from Ganondorf) he completely obliterates him. And he also wields that sages holy sword as his own.

So no, holy weapons dont do much to him. light arrows bestowed to Zelda (and Link) by the god spirits of hyrule only stun him (not damage).

Only the master sword truly hurts/kills Ganon. If the player uses the Ordon sword, beats Ganon in the fight than stabs him in the chest nothing you don't win and Ganon recovers like nothing happened.

It a pretty tall order for anyone to beat Ganondorf, like I stated in my earlier post; if Ganon didn't have the scar for link to attack, Link would of had an even tougher battle.

And also Ganon is 7 feet 5" and probably weighs 400+ pounds and survives a castle crashing on him can become a mass of pure energy or a gaint beast/monster, can posses people (including Zelda who wields the Triforce of wisdom!), can teleport at will.... Etc. you guys get the point?

If I had to place money on anybody from the smash fighters in a death match I would pick Ganon in a heart beat the guys is pretty much invincible. By canon Link did fail and lost to Ganon in one of the timelines so even against the one that wields the master sword and is "destined" to beat him... He still can win!

Sorry for the mini rant, but some of you guys are really down playing just how powerful Ganondorf truly is.

 

[josh bones]

In the games, a team rocket grunt took a point blank hyper beam from lance's dragonite. I think trainers can take a lot of damage if the grunt wasn't obliterated.

 

[Tenchi Boom]

Ness. I think he could beat Mewtwo.

 

[Smash G]

Why is this even a debate? Ganondorf. Stop debating now. There's your answer. Though he's weak vs Link he could cannonically own everyone else, and even if he didn't he'd just revive like he usually does.

Link's Master Sword was the only thing that could stop him. Even if you mustered enough power to kill him somehow again, he has a habit of coming back.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

Why is this even a debate? Ganondorf. Stop debating now. There's your answer. Though he's weak vs Link he could cannonically own everyone else, and even if he didn't he'd just revive like he usually does.

Link's Master Sword was the only thing that could stop him. Even if you mustered enough power to kill him somehow again, he has a habit of coming back.

Pack it up, guys, thread's over.

All you guys that think Ganon can be defeated by holy weapons are wrong.

Not sure where you get this. The Master Sword is often referred to as a 'sacred blade', and last I checked, one of the definitions of the word 'sacred' was thus:

entitled to veneration or religious respect by association with divinity or divine things; holy.

So it's essentially a holy, divine, magic sword, all things that Ganondorf is clearly not immune to. Not to mention, we never really see magic get used on Ganondorf, but I'd imagine a mage of sufficient power would do some solid damage. Yeah, Ganondorf is strong, and durable, but it's a bit unfair to say that he's #1 without doing a genuine analysis 'cause some of the cast have a genuine chance to kill Ganondorf even outside of holy, magic or divine weaponry. Even if we gave Ganondorf the benefit of the doubt, Link and Ike are still the two guys with the highest chances to kill Ganondorf, and I'd even go so far as to bet Marth could wear down and kill Ganondorf. And Samus would have a strong opportunity to do so because a lot of her weaponry is just ridiculously powerful. The Plasma Beam is stated as 'completely obliterating the enemy'. It's tough to come back from being completely obliterated, even if you've had a castle fall on you in the past.

 

[DahremRuhar]

Unfortunately, Ganon can not be permanently killed. He is eternal, as a result of Demise's curse. He has been "killed" in all 3 timelines. In the downfall timeline, it has been proven that if he is killed, he can be resurrected via a ritual. In the Child timeline, he was stabbed through the stomach with the Master Sword, and was unable to save his own life due to the Triforce of Power malfunctioning or w/e. Fast-forward a few hundred years, and he is reincarnated into a new body. In the Adult timeline, he is dead as of now, but it's safe to assume, given Demise's curse, that he will return. As long as there is a Link, a Zelda, and/or a Triforce, he can not be killed.

And the Master Sword is not simply a "Sacred Sword." It is blessed with the very essence of the three beings that created Hyrule.

Even a sword blessed by the ultimate forces of creation can not kill him. The only plausible way to kill him would be to destroy the Triforce, and that would be a bit of a mistake. Ganondorf is invincible. /thread

 

[Deleted member]

I think that it should be who can 'beat' the others, not 'kill', Ganondorf was sealed in WW, while not killed he can't do anything, as long as the other 'combatant' is incapacited, they win. Also, I'll assume they have full power, which means all the power-ups the chars can have at the same time canonically. It will also never be acurrate, since Greninja can easily defeat Ness, Lucas and Mewtwo since he's immune to psychic moves, the same aplies for Ganondorf, Jigglypuff is a Fairy-Type which can be associated to holy/light power, meaning she can easily stun Ganondorf.
And if Palutena makes in, we will have our answer

 

[Rabbattack]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on some of these. Marth may not have the raw power to kill Ganondorf, but Ike most certainly does. The reason why I label the Space Animals as potential opponents is because their blasters utilize lasers, which is essentially, at its basest form, weaponized light. They don't really have to get in close, just blast him to death from range. I actually forgot all about Roy, but I'm way too lazy to look up Roy's weapon.

But yeah, I wanted to go more in depth about Samus's advantages, but that would've taken forever.

As for Link and Zelda, Link has clearly shown he can defeat Ganon/Ganondorf without help. I mean, he does it in Legend of Zelda for NES, Skyward Sword and A Link to the Past. If he can do it in those games, there's no legitimate reason he can't do it again without Zelda's help.I think Zelda would have trouble, though, so I can at least agree with you here. If she was proficient at destroying Ganondorf by herself there'd have been no need for Link.

Okay so that means only Skyward Sword Link can beat Ganon, that's 1/3. It really depends on the Link as I said before. Some incarnations of Link are weaker and others are stronger. The Starfox crews weapons aren't as strong as Samus's. They have less powerful lazers that may hurt Ganondorf, but not kill him.

Can you or anyone else explain how Ike is a match for Ganondorf. I'm pretty sure if he transformed into Ganon he would be no match for him. Remember that Link from OoT had the golden gauntlets. This item let him carry some 1000 tons of black granite. That much force in a swing of a holy weapon should be able to defeat most opponents. If Ganon could survive that much force from one of his only two weaknesses, then I'm pretty sure Ike, Marth, and Roy can't beat him or Ganondorf. OoT and TP Links had a weapon infused with one of Ganondorfs only weaknesses and needed help or lost, Link is the strongest swordsmen in smash, right below Pit. Ike can't match Links superhuman strength or the enemy most Links couldn't beat without help.

Explain how Ike is a match for Ganondorf.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Pack it up, guys, thread's over.



Not sure where you get this. The Master Sword is often referred to as a 'sacred blade', and last I checked, one of the definitions of the word 'sacred' was thus:.

I guess you didn't completely read my post so I'll repeat my self;

-Ganondorf got stabed through the chest by the Sages sword a holy/sacred weapon.
-He than instantly gets revived as the gods bestow the Triforce of power to him and he comes back from the brink of death.
-He than proceed to pull the sword from his chest like it was nothing and punches a sage (a Demi-god of sorts) into dust.
-He also used that scared weapon as his own throughout the game. If the sword was a weakness to him he would not use it or carry it around, cause it be damaging to him and/or if he were to lose it would be a dangerous weapon against him, but that's not the case cause ONLY the master sword hurts him, and he can't hold it.

I'm not well versed in Fire Emblem lore but I really don't think any of them carry a piece of the Triforce and have the master sword. Or can lift 1000 tons like Link could in OoT.

Also in the pokemon world people get hit by attacks and don't die cause it's a kids game, I'm sure their more like regular humans than not. Also maybe pokemon don't use their full power on humans/each other. But on inanimate objects they don't need to hold back? Just a guess...

I do like this debate a lot but it would be best to just leave Ganondorf (possibly Mewtwo and Ness too) out of the discussion, just for his sheer invincibility.

 

[Tremendo Dude]

Greninja is rather frail, though, and, depending on his chosen ability, can change type with every attack he uses. That said, Mewtwo can easily tear a hole in Greninja despite his Dark typing, as he is not limited to using only Psychic type moves. Greninja's speed and power are formidable, but Mewtwo outclasses him in ALL stats, and boasts the ability to recover as well. He would probably hold advantage against Ness and Lucas due to his typing, however. If Ness and Lucas retain their Smash abilities in addition to their canonical abilities, however, we might be looking at different odds. PSI Thunder, while somewhat inaccurate, would devastate Greninja if he's left to his default Water/Dark typing. If left to their own abilities, however, they would be limited to only using melee attacks and self-healing PSI, in which neither of the boys are slouches.

That said, Ness and Lucas aren't especially powerful on their own. They both rely on a team to support in order to excel. Mewtwo's rather powerful as well, but he's certainly not invincible. I'd say anyone who isn't a "Fighting" type and can keep up with him well enough to outpace his self healing and withstand his attacks could hold up well enough against him. Lord knows anyone could just weaken him and throw a Pokeball at him and come out on top with a powerful partner in hand.

Speaking of which, Ganon is not only vulnerable to the Master Sword, even if we're going directly with LoZ lore and taking it at face value. In fact, he has been slain twice through the use of Silver Arrows, which, as far as I can find, are referred to only as arrows made entirely of silver. Can we postulate from this that Ganon shares a silver weakness with werewolves?

 

[ChunkyBeef]

I guess you didn't completely read my post so I'll repeat my self;

-Ganondorf got stabed through the chest by the Sages sword a holy/sacred weapon.
-He than instantly gets revived as the gods bestow the Triforce of power to him and he comes back from the brink of death.
-He than proceed to pull the sword from his chest like it was nothing and punches a sage (a Demi-god of sorts) into dust.
-He also used that scared weapon as his own throughout the game. If the sword was a weakness to him he would not use it or carry it around, cause it be damaging to him and/or if he were to lose it would be a dangerous weapon against him, but that's not the case cause ONLY the master sword hurts him, and he can't hold it.

You make a great case here for Ganondorf being okay with holy/sacred weaponry while holding it, but there's nothing here that says he can't be hurt by them. Similarly, it's possible to kill Ganon without a sword in some games, so what does that say for Ganondorf's actual constitution? I don't think it's ONLY the Master Sword that hurts him. Yes, it's his natural counter, but what is the Master Sword if not a weapon forged by divinity? Just like Marth's Falchion and Ike's Ragnell. Both are the same exact definition of divinely forged weapon as the Master Sword is. Even if we leave out the questionable ones like the Space Animals and assume Zelda doesn't have the power solo to AT LEAST seal Ganon in a fashion that would earn her a victory, you've gotta concede that Link, Marth and Ike all have a great chance to defeat, or even kill, Ganondorf.

Similarly, I'd still say Samus has an amazing chance to win as well, 'cause the kind of technology she employs is tantamount to magic to people from Hyrule.

I'm not well versed in Fire Emblem lore but I really don't think any of them carry a piece of the Triforce and have the master sword. Or can lift 1000 tons like Link could in OoT.

I'm not well versed in Fire Emblem lore either, but when I do my research for things like this, I look for parallels that fit properly to other things. Ragnell and Falchion are, for all intents and purposes, the Fire Emblem equivalents of the Master Sword, even though they don't expressly serve the same function that the Master Sword does. The definition of evil in canon like Fire Emblem and Zelda are wildly different.

I do like this debate a lot but it would be best to just leave Ganondorf (possibly Mewtwo and Ness too) out of the discussion, just for his sheer invincibility.

It might be fairer for everyone involved if we decide who's CLEARLY outranking the rest of the cast canonically - which is still worth debating, in my opinion - and then figuring out who among the rest of the cast is the best. Splitting it up into two different categories and coming up with two different winners (or top three in each category, at least) might be the best option.

Even a sword blessed by the ultimate forces of creation can not kill him. The only plausible way to kill him would be to destroy the Triforce, and that would be a bit of a mistake. Ganondorf is invincible. /thread

Pack it up, guys, thread's over.

Okay so that means only Skyward Sword Link can beat Ganon, that's 1/3. It really depends on the Link as I said before. Some incarnations of Link are weaker and others are stronger. The Starfox crews weapons aren't as strong as Samus's. They have less powerful lazers that may hurt Ganondorf, but not kill him.

Can you or anyone else explain how Ike is a match for Ganondorf. I'm pretty sure if he transformed into Ganon he would be no match for him. Remember that Link from OoT had the golden gauntlets. This item let him carry some 1000 tons of black granite. That much force in a swing of a holy weapon should be able to defeat most opponents. If Ganon could survive that much force from one of his only two weaknesses, then I'm pretty sure Ike, Marth, and Roy can't beat him or Ganondorf. OoT and TP Links had a weapon infused with one of Ganondorfs only weaknesses and needed help or lost, Link is the strongest swordsmen in smash, right below Pit. Ike can't match Links superhuman strength or the enemy most Links couldn't beat without help.

Explain how Ike is a match for Ganondorf.

Okay, you guys really gotta stop watching Death Battle.

Where, at any point in Ocarina of Time's final battle, does black granite and 1,000 tons of force (or anything even remotely close to that) ever come into the equation?

Answer: It doesn't.

It doesn't affect his actual attack strength. He never does more damage after you obtain the Golden Gauntlets. All the Golden Gauntlets do is allow Link the ability to lift things much heavier than he could possibly ever lift. It never has an affect on the final battle in Ocarina of Time 'cause Link never lifts up Ganon/Ganondorf. In fact, where the Death Battle guys get that the Golden Gauntlets can resist 1,000 tons of force is beyond me, 'cause the Golden Gauntlets aren't even a defensive item in its origin game in spite of being a gauntlet. It's an awfully broad assumption and kinda poor research on their part, probably in an attempt to logically give Link all the advantages he needed to conquer Cloud. I don't care either way, that's not particularly important.

Point is, Link's conquered Ganondorf alone. A lot of Zelda's interference was due to her simply being there. If Zelda hadn't been there it would've come down to who wins between Link and Ganondorf, and considering the timeline branches the way it does, Ganondorf's got some pretty bad odds at 1:3. A 33.333% chance of winning isn't all that good odds.

Speaking of which, Ganon is not only vulnerable to the Master Sword, even if we're going directly with LoZ lore and taking it at face value. In fact, he has been slain twice through the use of Silver Arrows, which, as far as I can find, are referred to only as arrows made entirely of silver. Can we postulate from this that Ganon shares a silver weakness with werewolves?

An excellent point, actually. That makes things for Ganondorf look even bleaker.

As an aside, I would argue that Ness is stronger than Lucas. Yeah, both of them have support, but Ness after Magicant is exceptionally powerful and durable. Lucas never really goes through that kind of metamorphosis. Similarly, if we assume Ness naturally acquires the Gutsy Bat afterward, he can do some truly serious damage just with melee attacks in comparison to Lucas.

 

[Ravio_Yo]

Only Ganon has shone to be weak to Silver Arrows, and you guys take the word "light" way too literally.

 

[The Curious Volnutt]

I think that it should be who can 'beat' the others, not 'kill', Ganondorf was sealed in WW, while not killed he can't do anything, as long as the other 'combatant' is incapacited, they win. Also, I'll assume they have full power, which means all the power-ups the chars can have at the same time canonically. It will also never be acurrate, since Greninja can easily defeat Ness, Lucas and Mewtwo since he's immune to psychic moves, the same aplies for Ganondorf, Jigglypuff is a Fairy-Type which can be associated to holy/light power, meaning she can easily stun Ganondorf.
And if Palutena makes in, we will have our answer

Pit can kill her if you aren't careful during the possessed Palutena boss fight.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

Only Ganon has shone to be weak to Silver Arrows, and you guys take the word "light" way too literally.

Well, I take 'light' literally because 'light' doesn't necessarily amount to actual holiness or divinity. It's just an aspect of 'good', part of an overall theme. There's nothing necessarily holy or divine about genuine ol' light. If you're weak to light, you're naturally weak to anything that naturally generates light that can do legitimate damage, including things like lasers and weaponized plasma. The Light Arrows in Zelda are, apparently, imbued with 'sacred light', of which the light is just one half of a whole. It's showboating on Zelda's part. The actual arrow itself seems to be sacred, not the light it generates.

 

[The Curious Volnutt]

Well, I take 'light' literally because 'light' doesn't necessarily amount to actual holiness or divinity. It's just an aspect of 'good', part of an overall theme. There's nothing necessarily holy or divine about genuine ol' light. If you're weak to light, you're naturally weak to anything that naturally generates light that can do legitimate damage, including things like lasers and weaponized plasma. The Light Arrows in Zelda are, apparently, imbued with 'sacred light', of which the light is just one half of a whole. It's showboating on Zelda's part. The actual arrow itself seems to be sacred, not the light it generates.

By this logic wouldn't the Falchion harm Ganondorf? It is known as the "blade of light."

 

[ChunkyBeef]

By this logic wouldn't the Falchion harm Ganondorf? It is known as the "blade of light."

Yeah, I've argued already that Falchion and Ragnell both could harm Ganondorf, though largely 'cause both of them are essentially the Fire Emblem equivalent of the Master Sword. All three are made by divinity to destroy evil, in layman's terms, and all three blades do so in their canon.

 

[The Curious Volnutt]

Yeah, I've argued already that Falchion and Ragnell both could harm Ganondorf, though largely 'cause both of them are essentially the Fire Emblem equivalent of the Master Sword. All three are made by divinity to destroy evil, in layman's terms, and all three blades do so in their canon.

Not quite sure about Ragnell. But then again,I haven't played a Tellius game in a while.

 

[DahremRuhar]

Yeah, I've argued already that Falchion and Ragnell both could harm Ganondorf, though largely 'cause both of them are essentially the Fire Emblem equivalent of the Master Sword. All three are made by divinity to destroy evil, in layman's terms, and all three blades do so in their canon.

Assuming that Ragnell and Falchion are capable of harming Ganondorf, he is either sealed, because his Triforce of Power prevents his death, or killed and reincarnated in a new body. In both cases he eventually comes back and muders Ike/Marth's descendant. Of course, it seems that everyone is forgetting that Ganondorf is an extremely powerful sorcerer, and physically adept as well.

And yes ChunkyBeef, no fun allowed. You must be new to Smashboards. Most of us here play Melee with all items off, on final destination and using Fox exclusively.

 

[The Curious Volnutt]

Assuming that Ragnell and Falchion are capable of harming Ganondorf, he is either sealed, because his Triforce of Power prevents his death, or killed and reincarnated in a new body. In both cases he eventually comes back and muders Ike/Marth's descendant. Of course, it seems that everyone is forgetting that Ganondorf is an extremely powerful sorcerer, and physically adept as well.

And yes ChunkyBeef, no fun allowed. You must be new to Smashboards. Most of us here play Melee with all items off, on final destination and using Fox exclusively.

Assuming that Ganondorf could kill Chrom and Priam.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

Not quite sure about Ragnell. But then again,I haven't played a Tellius game in a while.

From part of my argument for Ragnell's ability to harm Ganondorf:

Ragnell is, alongside its sister sword, Alondite, imbued with the blessings of the goddess Ashera, and is originally wielded by the first Apostle, Altina, to vanquish Yune.

So, it's a divine blade, therefore, capable of, at the very least, harming Ganondorf. It's also unfair to ignore that Ragnell can generate projectiles, even if he doesn't use this in Brawl and likely won't in Smash 4, either. Is it safe to assume, therefore, that the projectiles are also divinely powered?

Assuming that Ragnell and Falchion are capable of harming Ganondorf, he is either sealed, because his Triforce of Power prevents his death, or killed and reincarnated in a new body. In both cases he eventually comes back and muders Ike/Marth's descendant. Of course, it seems that everyone is forgetting that Ganondorf is an extremely powerful sorcerer, and physically adept as well.

Yeah, Ganondorf has a lot going for him, but as I said, at the very least I'm willing to admit that Link and Ike have the best odds out of all of them. The way I see it, if Ike can strike down divinity, he's got the strongest odds out of all of them to power through a fight with Ganondorf and possibly win.

Similarly, I think it's fair to consider a victory against Ganondorf anything that seals him, kills/destroys his physical body, forces him to back off or incapacitates him, though the same can be said for anyone in an attempt to be fair. As far as Ganondorf's reincarnation goes, it seems to be hundreds/thousands of years between these instances, and likely even longer while Ganondorf is legitimately sealed. A few times, Ganondorf has to have outside help to be reincarnated/revived/unsealed, though to be fair, a lot of that is to have it occur before it might have naturally.

I mean, no matter what argument we make, Ganondorf is going to be close to the top, if not legitimately at the top. Which is why I suggested splitting it into two categories, one for the more mundane/superhuman characters and the other for clearly overpowered characters.

 

[Tremendo Dude]

If we're considering it a victory for Ganondorf if he dies, comes back hundreds of years later, and kills their descendents, what is there to say for people like Mario, who consume ridiculous amounts of green mushrooms and related items? Draw the line somewhere!

 

[DahremRuhar]

Yeah, Ganondorf has a lot going for him, but as I said, at the very least I'm willing to admit that Link and Ike have the best odds out of all of them. The way I see it, if Ike can strike down divinity, he's got the strongest odds out of all of them to power through a fight with Ganondorf and possibly win.

Similarly, I think it's fair to consider a victory against Ganondorf anything that seals him, kills/destroys his physical body, forces him to back off or incapacitates him, though the same can be said for anyone in an attempt to be fair. As far as Ganondorf's reincarnation goes, it seems to be hundreds/thousands of years between these instances, and likely even longer while Ganondorf is legitimately sealed. A few times, Ganondorf has to have outside help to be reincarnated/revived/unsealed, though to be fair, a lot of that is to have it occur before it might have naturally.

I mean, no matter what argument we make, Ganondorf is going to be close to the top, if not legitimately at the top. Which is why I suggested splitting it into two categories, one for the more mundane/superhuman characters and the other for clearly overpowered characters.

I agree with all of this actually. Even so, no fun allowed.

If we're considering it a victory for Ganondorf if he dies, comes back hundreds of years later, and kills their descendents, what is there to say for people like Mario, who consume ridiculous amounts of green mushrooms and related items? Draw the line somewhere!

I don't have to. 1-ups and Mario's consuming of them is unrelated to the storyline, and therefore non-canon.


EDIT: Something that has yet to be considered. Some characters are canonically counters or checks to other characters. While Link and perhaps Ike can defeat Ganondorf, they could have a harder time with characters that Ganon would be able to defeat. Basically like a massive cosmic game of rock-paper-scissors. This holds true for pretty much any character in Smash.

 

[Deleted member]

Pit can kill her if you aren't careful during the possessed Palutena boss fight.

That's because she was weakened by the Chaos Kin(is this it's name? It has been some time since I played Uprising)

Anyway, Ganondorf may be immortal, but what decides the winner is if they can incapacitate the opponent on this "game", no one needs to kill Ganondorf, well, because he can't die, but look at WW, he isn't dead, but he can't do anything. I would also like to point that he dies in the other 2 timelines: in LoZ he is killed for good(in AoL, his minions even try to ressurect him) and Link kills him at the end of TP, he then reicarnates as what is know as Ganondorf II in FS: Adventures, Ganondorf isn't immortal. Now, if there is someone who is immortal, it's

S-Tier:








A-Tier:








B-Tier:









C-Tier:









D-Tier:





E-Tier:



F-Tier:

 

[Ravio_Yo]

Are the Mario characters allowed RPG abilities?

 

[Ravio_Yo]

From Gamefaqs:

Again, a topic like this is made. Again, it foolishly does not place the truly most powerful character in the smash universe on top: Mr. Game & Watch. Let's recap why Mr. Game & Watch is the greatest...
Subspace Emissary was the main place we saw him in action; we can fairly take everything G&W related there to be G&W canon. So, G&W is a 2d being comprised of a special LCD fluid. This fluid was extracted from him to make the subspace army, and this process did not appear to diminish G&W in any way. This is clear evidence that mass can be extracted from G&W without reducing G&W's mass; he therefore is an object capable of generating an infinite amount of mass, mass that further can be animated in arbitrary ways including operating as clones of the other characters. You think Marth is stronger? Well, G&W can make a Marth. Marth is more skilled than clone Marth? G&W makes two. Marth is so good he can outfight two of himself? Well, G&W makes a thousand. Marth begins to annoy G&W? G&W just summons so much mass onto whatever planet Marth is on it collapses into a black hole. There is literally zero physical reason G&W can't do this; Tabuu was just a fool who didn't understand the power he was tapping into and severely misused it. It may also be that the subspace bombs themselves were mini-black holes made from G&W matter; who knows?
Even when G&W isn't summoning infinite mass, he's pretty unstoppable. Just remember the other super broken thing about what he is: a truly 2d object in a 3d world. Mr. Game & Watch is locked into only 2d of existance (though the mass he infinitely spawns can seemingly be 3d if he wants it to be); that means that light won't properly refract off him and, except from a completely orthogonal angle, he'll be completely invisible to the other characters. When he makes contact with other characters, he can't distort to any degree whatsoever into the third dimension as well. That means that if he does a karate chop on Marth's sword, his hand can't bend in any way to the side. Objects distort to some extent when making a collision with tougher objects and then "bounce" because they expand back out in the opposite and unresisted direction. Since G&W can't distort, his attacks can't bounce off targets. Further considering how he's incredibly sharp (in fact, sharper than any hypothetical 3d object could ever be) and further considering that he does not have an ordinary atomic structure so therefore he's not going to be repelled by the electric charges of subatomic particles, he's going to just cut through most objects with incredible ease. It's actually lucky for him that he has displayed the ability to propel himself upward freely or else he'd just sink to the core of the planet when he tried to walk, but he can do that so he's good.
So we've already established that as a physical power G&W's ability is almost literally infinite, but you might try to argue psychic attacks would be effective. Unluckily for the rest of the roster, this is extremely unlikely to work. Psychic attacks are generally modeled as an attack on the subject's mind... but is there any evidence G&W even has a mind to be attacked? He certainly doesn't have a brain (since a brain is a 3d object) and seems only to react to events around him; it seems most likely that a psychic attack would work no better on him than it would on a pile of bricks. Psychics can sometimes levitate ordinary objects, but since G&W can become arbitrarily heavy and they can't even see him to focus their power, good luck with that.
So I'm sorry to all the 3d characters, but you have met your match, and his name is Mr. Game & Watch.
---

I've bolded the most important parts.

 

[Tremendo Dude]

Are the Mario characters allowed RPG abilities?

Let's give Mario his Super Guard from Thousand Year Door. GG everything.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

From Gamefaqs:

I've bolded the most important parts.

Interesting argument there for Game & Watch. Unfortunately, because Game & Watch isn't portrayed that way in Smash, that's all moot point. Game & Watch is portrayed in Smash in the same way that one might consider Paper Mario. Realistically, fighters shouldn't be able to perceive Paper Mario or Game & Watch, but they can, and do, and interact with him on a level that doesn't suggest any of what the guy suggested.

So if we were doing 'Hyper Realistic Fighter Who's The Strongest?', Game & Watch would win.

Since this isn't the case, his entire argument, while impressive and certainly true in a real life context, is rendered moot.

Besides, have you ever touched an LED screen? That stuff's squishy. I assume Game & Watch to be in a similar way. The million dollar question is whether or not Game & Watch is considered organic and requires an actual brain that can be affected psionically.

Are the Mario characters allowed RPG abilities?

In my argument, that I'll post one day in the future when it's actually friggin' done (it's massive as it is already), I argue that Thunder/Fire Hand are natural abilities that Mario and Luigi would have access to, both from Mario RPG's. So in some senses, sure.

 

[Ravio_Yo]

In my argument, that I'll post one day in the future when it's actually friggin' done (it's massive as it is already), I argue that Thunder/Fire Hand are natural abilities that Mario and Luigi would have access to, both from Mario RPG's. So in some senses, sure.

K. I was just wondering whether or not Peach Beam was allowed, and if it is, then would it be able to nullify Ganondorf's immunity to non-Master Sword attacks.