Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Diddy Kong]

I wouldn't say she can easily handle 800-pounds gorilla that can launch a 3000-pounds crocodile very high in the air with a simple uppercut, but Diddy wouldn't be a problem. Even HOO HAH won't help because he has to grab her first.

Joke is on you, I don't see Zero Suit Samus being capable of dealing with Diddy's weaponary. And his agility will also proof troublesome. I don't care too much of the Metroid physics Dryn often posts here, but anyone who can dodge canonball fire has some serious athletic flexibility going on. Plus, he can pretty much do his Final Smash all day long. Unless Zero Suit Samus comes with hers (Final Smash, aka the ship) I don't see her beating Diddy at all.

Which is why I also think certain matchups need to be discussed if characters are gonna fight on foot or with their verhile. For Captain Falcon, Zero Suit Samus and the StarFox cast these details are pretty much dealbreakers.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

There is a better comparison:
Human A and Human B can (i mean their bodies allow that) drive a car, but only A knows how to drive it. B has to learn how to do it and thats the only thing preventing him from driving it.
Same thing is here.

Yet, after B learns how to drive, what enables him to drive the car is the ability to drive.
Shulk has the ability of ether manipulation, so what enables him to do those things (and potentially more) is the ability of ether manipulation.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Joke is on you, I don't see Zero Suit Samus being capable of dealing with Diddy's weaponary. And his agility will also proof troublesome. I don't care too much of the Metroid physics Dryn often posts here, but anyone who can dodge canonball fire has some serious athletic flexibility going on. Plus, he can pretty much do his Final Smash all day long. Unless Zero Suit Samus comes with hers (Final Smash, aka the ship) I don't see her beating Diddy at all.

Which is why I also think certain matchups need to be discussed if characters are gonna fight on foot or with their verhile. For Captain Falcon, Zero Suit Samus and the StarFox cast these details are pretty much dealbreakers.

Canonball going slower than a running monkey to be speciffic. If we will really use such things, then Mario can dodge bullets. He obviously wouldn't be able to do so (resulting in that hilarious ending from that one Dorkly short).
She can beat him if she hits hit at least once with paralyzer shots (which also deal some damage if they can break blocks that require bombs to be used) or just kick him. That surely will be enough to break bones of a small monkey. She certainly is a lot stronger than a normal human if she can jump that high without any upgrades (even without ZS, as seen in the manga). He has no chance of hitting her when she can dodge projectiles faster than Diddy's peanuts.

Yet, after B learns how to drive, what enables him to drive the car is the ability to drive.
Shulk has the ability of ether manipulation, so what enables him to do those things (and potentially more) is the ability of ether manipulation.

And Shulk, who is B in this case, didn't passed this step if he can't do what...that guy did despite being superiour.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Joke is on you, I don't see Zero Suit Samus being capable of dealing with Diddy's weaponary. And his agility will also proof troublesome. I don't care too much of the Metroid physics Dryn often posts here, but anyone who can dodge canonball fire has some serious athletic flexibility going on. Plus, he can pretty much do his Final Smash all day long. Unless Zero Suit Samus comes with hers (Final Smash, aka the ship) I don't see her beating Diddy at all.

Which is why I also think certain matchups need to be discussed if characters are gonna fight on foot or with their verhile. For Captain Falcon, Zero Suit Samus and the StarFox cast these details are pretty much dealbreakers.

Cannonballs in video games are notoriously not accurate to life, though; they're always far slower than real cannonballs. And saying you "don't care too much" for the foe means that the results are tainted because you don't know both contestants fully.

As for Diddy's FS; Samus has superhuman agility; a flying monkey with peanuts is going to be pretty simple to dodge; just stay away from the buisness end. Samus is also strong enough to send Vorash, something of similar size to a humpback whale (which is far bigger than Diddy or Donkey Kong) flying using only the Grapple Beam, so she obviously has superhuman strength, too. Let's compare them for real, though;

- Superhuman agility, superhuman strength, Paralyzer, energy whip, melee
- Peanut Popgun, Rocketbarrel Pack, melee

Diddy is outclassed, no matter what he does. Samus has more advantages over Diddy than Diddy has over Samus.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

And Shulk, who is B in this case, didn't passed this step if he can't do what...that guy did despite being superiour.

Why wouldn't he be able to do it if someone weaker than him did it using the same power?

Anyways, driving a car (giving yourself wings) is an automatic application of driving (ether manipulation). For another comparison, running someone over/participating in a race/going up a ramp (making yourself immune to water) is an automatic application of driving a car (ether manipulation). Not something you actually have to learn.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Why wouldn't he be able to do it if someone weaker than him did it using the same power?

Anyways, driving a car (giving yourself wings) is an automatic application of driving (ether manipulation). For another comparison, running someone over/participating in a race/going up a ramp (making yourself immune to water) is an automatic application of driving a car (ether manipulation). Not something you actually have to learn.

Because he probably doesn't knows how to?
You can't drive a car without knowing where is everything and what does this button do- *alarm activates*.

Cannonballs in video games are notoriously not accurate to life, though; they're always far slower than real cannonballs. And saying you "don't care too much" for the foe means that the results are tainted because you don't know both contestants fully.

As for Diddy's FS; Samus has superhuman agility; a flying monkey with peanuts is going to be pretty simple to dodge; just stay away from the buisness end. Samus is also strong enough to send Vorash, something of similar size to a humpback whale (which is far bigger than Diddy or Donkey Kong) flying using only the Grapple Beam, so she obviously has superhuman strength, too. Let's compare them for real, though;

- Superhuman agility, superhuman strength, Paralyzer, energy whip, melee
- Peanut Popgun, Rocketbarrel Pack, melee

Diddy is outclassed, no matter what he does. Samus has more advantages over Diddy than Diddy has over Samus.

Just pointing it out - she didn't just throw Vorash. She killed it by throwing it into the wall. But then again, she had a Power Suit on her at that time.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

But then again, she had a Power Suit on her at that time.

True, but such a feat is still based on physical strength, so I can reasonably assume that the Power Suit just augments her natural abilities in a physical sense. She's still strong enough to do it, but probably with a bit more effort when out of the Power Suit.

Either way, Diddy is outclassed.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Because he probably doesn't knows how to?
You can't drive a car without knowing where is everything and what does this button do- *alarm activates*.

And someone weaker than him knows how to? Learning the buttons is part of learning to drive, so Shulk would have the idea of how to use the ether manipulation.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

And someone weaker than him knows how to? Learning the buttons is part of learning to drive, so Shulk would have the idea of how to use the ether manipulation.

Ok, this is going nowhere. I don't know how exactly that ether manipulation is done, but is it something complicated like X color Lantern constructions or more like "Hey, muhnadoh, gimme dem wingz *wings appear" Thanks bruh"? If latter one, then my argument fails.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Ok, this is going nowhere. I don't know how exactly that ether manipulation is done, but is it something complicated like X color Lantern constructions or more like "Hey, muhnadoh, gimme dem wingz *wings appear" Thanks bruh"? If latter one, then my argument fails.

It doesn't really matter whether Shulk has learned it or not. If he can learn it, he gets it. A similar case is the Pokémon. A Pikachu might not have learned Electro Ball, but he can use it here.

 

[Munomario777]

You got that mixed up there. I'm not being compared to Shulk, my sister is.

Same difference.

Since my sister has an arm and a hand, she can throw a punch whether she's done it or not. Since Shulk has a Monado, he can use self-ether manipulation whether he's done it or not.

It's common knowledge that anyone with a functioning arm and hand can throw a punch. Is it stated that anyone with a Monado can perform the technique in question?

It's impossible for them to show every single thing Shulk can do with ether manipulation, you know.

If it hasn't been said or shown, it has no place here.

Yet, after B learns how to drive, what enables him to drive the car is the ability to drive.
Shulk has the ability of ether manipulation, so what enables him to do those things (and potentially more) is the ability of ether manipulation.

Your comparison doesn't match up. The ability to drive allows B to drive, so for Shulk, what would allow him to perform technique Y is the ability to perform technique Y, which you haven't proven that Shulk has.

Why wouldn't he be able to do it if someone weaker than him did it using the same power?

Anyways, driving a car (giving yourself wings) is an automatic application of driving (ether manipulation). For another comparison, running someone over/participating in a race/going up a ramp (making yourself immune to water) is an automatic application of driving a car (ether manipulation). Not something you actually have to learn.

When is it stated that making yourself immune to water is an automatic application of ether manipulation?

It doesn't really matter whether Shulk has learned it or not. If he can learn it, he gets it. A similar case is the Pokémon. A Pikachu might not have learned Electro Ball, but he can use it here.

Pikachus have been shown to be able to learn Electro Ball. Shulk has not been shown to perform technique Y.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

When is it stated that making yourself immune to water is an automatic application of ether manipulation?

And how is that possible without just becoming intangible since its less water damaging opponent and more just all of the force and weight from the wave (if we are still taking about surf)?

 

[Crystanium]

BTW, since we're allowing all summons, shouldn't Palutena get to summon Pit @ Nerdicon , @ Munomario777 , @Dryn , @ Kirby Dragons , @ BaganSmashBros , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 ? Just because he's fighting should count, since technically Charizard and Pikachu are on here and also Red's team (I know that their a whole species of them). I think as long as she's not fighting Pit, she should be able to summon Pit.

There's more than one Charizard and Pikachu in the Pokeverse, so I don't think summoning Pit should be allowed.

@Dryn , my bad I misinterpreted your post as saying you're opposed to Star Fox and Captain Falcon characters getting their vehicles. But in that case, shouldn't both Star Fox characters be above Marth?
I'm also surprised you didn't rank Mewtwo.

The Star Fox characters arwings would prevent Marth from harming them, although I'm not sure if Marth has any abilities that protect him from harm. Arwings fire lasers and super bombs. I'm not sure what else they can do. Captain Falcon would rely on hitting his opponents with his F-Zero vehicle, which is something that's done in the F-Zero games, so it won't damage the vehicle.

I'm not sure where to put Mewtwo. Since he'll be allowed to use all TMs that he's capable of learning, he'll probably be somewhere around low- to mid-top tier. I'll have to look at the TMs again.

But like I said, the concept was not based strictly on it being a mini-game so the do-over vote did not over turn it. When Dryn voted against it, the word "mini-game" or "sidequest" wasn't used. Look:

Granted, he mixed up games and levels but still.
Nonetheless, besides the points I already made and make below, I don't care to about this, since it wasn't actually my proposal. I can see you want a revote so, @Dryn , @ Nerdicon , @ BaganSmashBros , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @ Kirby Dragons , have any of you changed you're mind on Sonic getting the ring count available at the Black Market as compared to his highest ring count (Sonic Unleashed) in an Action mode/actual adventure level?

Well, I voted for that one rule about Samus' missiles, super missiles, and power bombs if and only if she was going to be receiving more than 20 energy tanks and more than 255 missiles, &c., so I thought she was already receiving more than what she typically holds. I also differentiated from "mini-game" and "side-quest". I specifically used those words when speaking to @ Munomario777 about the matter.

Assuming I've interpreted Muno's comment correctly, it's currently 3-1 for Shulk being able to use Zanza's displayed powers (mutating into a grotesque mixed species being, these powers. What do you think @ BaganSmashBros , @Dryn , @ Nerdicon .
Here's the general argument: Zanza can do a variety of things Shulk doesn't do even after Shulk generally unlocks the Monado, although that could be ignorance on Shulk's part. Shulk eventually gets the Monado III, which is on par, if not better than both of the other Monado's combined. So theoretically, he should be able to use any move Zanza does.

If the things Zanza can do is because of the Monado, then Shulk should have the ability to do the same. However, that doesn't mean Shulk knows how or will use the same abilities Zanza can perform. It's one of those things where you could say yes, but also say no to.

I skimmed over that post on Megaman vs Samus and took away this:

• 3 time stops, but @Dryn I looked at the wiki and youtube, and Flash Stopper only works on mechanical enemies, and going off of Youtube, Centaur Flash freezes Mega man too, although it could be useful for being able to see a fast approaching object coming. Time Stopper: appears to be the only one that would work. Freezes time for 10 seconds max
• Has 10 weapon tanks to replenish all energy to his special attacks, one Super tank that fully restores HP and restores all special weapons powers, a Mystery Tank that does the same thing, and 9 E-tanks that heal all health.
• 3 kinds of attack nullifiers:
  • Skull barrier: Can block 3 attacks. 14 Uses
  • Plant Barrier: blocks any attack but only takes 1 hit. Offensively, it does damage and extra damage against shields, armored foes, and most interestingly invulnerable foes. Hits opponent several times before vanishing. 7 uses.
  • Jewel Sattelite: Blocks most projectiles (I presume not powerful ones), lasts until it touches a tough, invulnerable, or guarding enemy. 7 uses.
  • Star Crash: Block all projectiles. Takes 10 hits or can be shot 14 times.

I just went over his defense, healing and time stops. Too much to read/study his quadrillion offensive moves. Nonetheless, he deserves a higher rank on tier list.

It's been so long since I've discussed that. I wish I knew that about flash stopper. It still can stop projectiles, however, so it would need to be stopping time. Centaur flash ignores defenses, though, but to what extent, I'm not sure. So time stopper would be the best option for Mega Man, and he should be able to use it multiple times with the weapon tank, however. I'm glad you think Mega Man deserves to be higher up, though. If it was X, he'd be at the very top. The question is, would be higher than Sonic?

 

[Munomario777]

The question is, would be higher than Sonic?

That might be an interesting analysis to do. My money's on Sonic, since he can attack while time is frozen, it lasts longer, and he won't run out of ammo (not to mention his super form and all). We'll have to see though.

 

[Crystanium]

That might be an interesting analysis to do. My money's on Sonic, since he can attack while time is frozen, it lasts longer, and he won't run out of ammo (not to mention his super form and all). We'll have to see though.

Mega Man can, too. Having control over time tends to make you immune to your own ability. You're more than welcome to provide sources where Sonic has been unaffected by time manipulation from someone else.

 

[Munomario777]

Mega Man can, too. Having control over time tends to make you immune to your own ability. You're more than welcome to provide sources where Sonic has been unaffected by time manipulation from someone else.

Has Mega Man ever been unaffected by someone else's time freezing? Also, IIRC, Time Stopper prevents Mega Man from attacking while it's active, and Flash Stopper's in-game explanation is that it emits a powerful light to blind them via some sort of safety device.

 

[Diddy Kong]

True, but such a feat is still based on physical strength, so I can reasonably assume that the Power Suit just augments her natural abilities in a physical sense. She's still strong enough to do it, but probably with a bit more effort when out of the Power Suit.

Either way, Diddy is outclassed.

If you go by end-game original Metroid's ZSS, then yes. But Zero Suit Samus based on her incarations from Zero Mission and Other M I wouldn't be so sure off. What sort of weapons does Zero Suit Samus have? I doubt she can use the Grapple Beam without her Power Suit. She's also slower in Other M without it. If she only has the Paralyser as you said, Diddy actually outclassed her with the Peanut Popguns with it's tracking peanuts, Orange Grenades, Rocket Barrel and electric guitar attack. DK64 gives Diddy quite some weaponary which where never meant to paralyse foes, if you get what I mean.

The Peanut Popguns are actually quite strong weapons in DK64, as they where originally meant to be real guns. There are still pics around of DK carrying a shotgun resembling a prototype Coconut Gun, and Diddy carrying around double pistols. Anyway, the weapons are able to take out enemies like Zingers, Klumps and Kritters quite easily. But Diddy is physically quite able to deal some real damage as well. Cartwheels being able to take down hordes of enemies in DKC for example, Simian Slam combined with real high jumps. If he can use his Rocket Barrel freely with this, he's putting Zero Suit Samus on a lot of pressure with this. He's also used at being thrown around, mostly by DK or Dixie as a fierce projectile, I don't think it's too out of the league to consider his Monkey Flip from Smash as a way as he would attack ZSS either.

At least, that's how I view it. If you'd like to give ZSS Smash's whip and boots, am fine with that to.

If we allow 'composite' characters, Diddy can also go invinsible for a while with a trick called 'Going Bananas' in King of Swing. He can also use bananas to heal himself with if he'd had to receive damage.

I think Diddy might even be able to beat Fox on foot if he doesn't have a reflector...

Also I thought of a rule regarding Pokemon and their moves. What if we allow Pokemon all moves they learn naturally when leveling up, but allow for only 4 TM moves? We see in various media that Pokemon do not normally 'forget' moves. I think this could give us more options with the Pokemon characters and being able to rank them more accurately.

 

[Crystanium]

Has Mega Man ever been unaffected by someone else's time freezing? Also, IIRC, Time Stopper prevents Mega Man from attacking while it's active, and Flash Stopper's in-game explanation is that it emits a powerful light to blind them via some sort of safety device.

No; of course, I never made the claim that Mega Man is immune to time freezing. Time stopper makes it impossible for Mega Man to fire projectiles, but he does have incredible strength to prevent Dr. Wily's castle from crushing him. I think that was in Mega Man 5. Flash stopper stops projectiles and enemies without eyes, so it's another useful time freezing ability.

If you go by end-game original Metroid's ZSS, then yes. But Zero Suit Samus based on her incarations from Zero Mission and Other M I wouldn't be so sure off. What sort of weapons does Zero Suit Samus have? I doubt she can use the Grapple Beam without her Power Suit. She's also slower in Other M without it. If she only has the Paralyser as you said, Diddy actually outclassed her with the Peanut Popguns with it's tracking peanuts, Orange Grenades, Rocket Barrel and electric guitar attack. DK64 gives Diddy quite some weaponary which where never meant to paralyse foes, if you get what I mean.

The Peanut Popguns are actually quite strong weapons in DK64, as they where originally meant to be real guns. There are still pics around of DK carrying a shotgun resembling a prototype Coconut Gun, and Diddy carrying around double pistols. Anyway, the weapons are able to take out enemies like Zingers, Klumps and Kritters quite easily. But Diddy is physically quite able to deal some real damage as well. Cartwheels being able to take down hordes of enemies in DKC for example, Simian Slam combined with real high jumps. If he can use his Rocket Barrel freely with this, he's putting Zero Suit Samus on a lot of pressure with this. He's also used at being thrown around, mostly by DK or Dixie as a fierce projectile, I don't think it's too out of the league to consider his Monkey Flip from Smash as a way as he would attack ZSS either.

At least, that's how I view it. If you'd like to give ZSS Smash's whip and boots, am fine with that to.

If we allow 'composite' characters, Diddy can also go invinsible for a while with a trick called 'Going Bananas' in King of Swing. He can also use bananas to heal himself with if he'd had to receive damage.

I think Diddy might even be able to beat Fox on foot if he doesn't have a reflector...

Zamus has the paralyzer. I've already spelled that out as being a wireless electroshock gun or plasma taser. An uncharged shot from the paralyzer will envelope a space pirate and prevent it from moving for three seconds. I'm not sure how long a charged shot would be. Zamus also retains the ability to use sense move, so this ability is not simply an ability used only by the power suit.

If the peanut popgun is firing peanuts, then how is it going to harm Samus? Let's assume it fired a peanut at the speed of sound. A typical peanut weighs 0.4 to 0.5 grams, according to Wikipedia. There's two in a pod, so that's 1 g., but the pod must also weigh something, so let's say 2 g. for the peanuts and the pod. That would mean one "bullet" is producing 0.686 newtons, or approximately 0.8 to 1.4 times the peak force applied to push down a key on a computer keyboard. That's not going to hurt Samus. Of course, that was assuming the peanut projectile was flying at the speed of sound.

I'm not sure how powerful orange grenades, rocket barrel, or the electric guitar attack is.

 

[Munomario777]

No; of course, I never made the claim that Mega Man is immune to time freezing. Time stopper makes it impossible for Mega Man to fire projectiles, but he does have incredible strength to prevent Dr. Wily's castle from crushing him. I think that was in Mega Man 5. Flash stopper stops projectiles and enemies without eyes, so it's another useful time freezing ability.

Ah, okay.

Time Stopper prevents Mega Man from using another Special Weapon or his Mega Buster, so while he might be able to throw some punches, it's not at all an ideal situation to attack in.

Just because an enemy doesn't have visible eyes doesn't mean that there isn't some sort of camera in there. The turrets, for example, would greatly benefit from having a camera to aim at Mega Man and such. I'd imagine it's something like a visor on a helmet, or a heavily tinted window (or perhaps the cameras are placed around the environment). Also worth noting is the fact that most Robot Masters aren't frozen by the Flash Stopper; only Pharaoh Man is. This seems to mean that the Flash Stopper is only effective against specific robots that do have that feature installed (or most small robots).

 

[Crystanium]

Time Stopper prevents Mega Man from using another Special Weapon or his Mega Buster, so while he might be able to throw some punches, it's not at all an ideal situation to attack in.

That's why getting behind his opponent and using a devastating attack would be preferable. It's not my place to say that the temperature for firestorm is 700 to 800°C or atomic fire to be 1,200°C. My only arguments for these is that Mega Man will die from falling into lava and the range for lava is anywhere between 700 to 1,500°C and that these heat ranges coincide with the color temperature. I don't know what the Japanese texts say for these. At the more reasonable temperatures, though, I'm not sure if Sonic can even withstand at least 1,200°C. If we stick with the numbers because "it's canon", then I'll be hard pressed to find anyone on the roster who can survive atomic fire.

Just because an enemy doesn't have visible eyes doesn't mean that there isn't some sort of camera in there. The turrets, for example, would greatly benefit from having a camera to aim at Mega Man and such. I'd imagine it's something like a visor on a helmet, or a heavily tinted window (or perhaps the cameras are placed around the environment). Also worth noting is the fact that most Robot Masters aren't frozen by the Flash Stopper; only Pharaoh Man is. This seems to mean that the Flash Stopper is only effective against specific robots that do have that feature installed (or most small robots).

Even if there were cameras, that doesn't address the point that projectiles can be stopped, meaning it doesn't just affect the robots. If Mega Man has to, he'll just resort to time stopper.

 

[Munomario777]

That's why getting behind his opponent and using a devastating attack would be preferable. It's not my place to say that the temperature for firestorm is 700 to 800°C or atomic fire to be 1,200°C. My only arguments for these is that Mega Man will die from falling into lava and the range for lava is anywhere between 700 to 1,500°C and that these heat ranges coincide with the color temperature. I don't know what the Japanese texts say for these. At the more reasonable temperatures, though, I'm not sure if Sonic can even withstand at least 1,200°C. If we stick with the numbers because "it's canon", then I'll be hard pressed to find anyone on the roster who can survive atomic fire.

Out of curiosity, where are those numbers for Fire Storm and Atomic Fire coming from? I can't find a source for them anywhere.

As for Sonic's heat resistance, either the Fire Shield, Super Sonic, or Hyper Sonic will protect him from lava inside a volcano (see Lava Reef Zone from Sonic 3), and without that protection, he'll just lose Rings.

Even if there were cameras, that doesn't address the point that projectiles can be stopped, meaning it doesn't just affect the robots. If Mega Man has to, he'll just resort to time stopper.

I'd say the whole projectile thing is a game mechanic, since the in-game explanation contradicts it. Also, it appears that Mega Man can only use his Mega Buster while using Flash Stopper, so it wouldn't do him that much good anyways.

 

[Crystanium]

Out of curiosity, where are those numbers for Fire Storm and Atomic Fire coming from? I can't find a source for them anywhere.

Supposedly from the Mega Man and Bass CD Database.

As for Sonic's heat resistance, either the Fire Shield, Super Sonic, or Hyper Sonic will protect him from lava inside a volcano (see Lava Reef Zone from Sonic 3), and without that protection, he'll just lose Rings.

There's a difference in temperature from lava and from the core of the Sun.

 

[Munomario777]

Supposedly from the Mega Man and Bass CD Database.

I see. That seems to be referring to the Robot Masters themselves, not the Special Weapons gained from them.

There's a difference in temperature from lava and from the core of the Sun.

Who ever said anything about the core of the sun?

 

[Crystanium]

I see. That seems to be referring to the Robot Masters themselves, not the Special Weapons gained from them.

Mega Man absorbs the special attack from the robot masters he defeats, just like how Samus absorbs the abilities from the X parasites.

Who ever said anything about the core of the sun?

You brought up fire shield, the super form and hyper form. Lava is incredibly cooler than 12,000°C. Although, I erred about the core of the Sun. The core of the Sun even exceeds that.

 

[Munomario777]

Mega Man absorbs the special attack from the robot masters he defeats, just like how Samus absorbs the abilities from the X parasites.

Yes, but it's often not exact. To quote the Mega Man Knowledge Base (Mega Man Wiki): "As the weapon obtained is not being used by the original user, who is specialized on it, sometimes the weapon may be less powerful and have a few differences." For instance, Guts Man's Special Weapon, the Super Arm, can be used to tackle, punch, etc. opponents, whereas Mega Man can only use it to lift certain blocks, and cannot directly attack with it. In addition, when Top Man uses the Top Spin, it reflects projectiles, but Mega Man's version doesn't. This does make Mega Man's resistance to heat rather high, though.

You brought up fire shield, the super form and hyper form. Lava is incredibly cooler than 12,000°C. Although, I erred about the core of the Sun. The core of the Sun even exceeds that.

Oops, I misread that as well.

 

[Crystanium]

Yes, but it's often not exact. To quote the Mega Man Knowledge Base (Mega Man Wiki): "As the weapon obtained is not being used by the original user, who is specialized on it, sometimes the weapon may be less powerful and have a few differences." For instance, Guts Man's Special Weapon, the Super Arm, can be used to tackle, punch, etc. opponents, whereas Mega Man can only use it to lift certain blocks, and cannot directly attack with it. In addition, when Top Man uses the Top Spin, it reflects projectiles, but Mega Man's version doesn't. This does make Mega Man's resistance to heat rather high, though.

Interesting. I do not feel the point for the super arm is proper because Mega Man always shoots, rather than punches. The purpose of the super arm was meant to lift blocks that Mega Man otherwise was incapable of lifting. (That does contradict the part where Mega Man holds up Dr. Wily's castle.) So while you may have addressed two points, can you prove that this applies to firestorm and atomic fire?

 

[Munomario777]

Interesting. I do not feel the point for the super arm is proper because Mega Man always shoots, rather than punches. The purpose of the super arm was meant to lift blocks that Mega Man otherwise was incapable of lifting. (That does contradict the part where Mega Man holds up Dr. Wily's castle.) So while you may have addressed two points, can you prove that this applies to firestorm and atomic fire?

He has the Mega Upper and such (at least in other games). I've proven that Special Weapons can vary from the ones used by Robot Masters they come from, so because of these inconsistencies, we should only use data specifically pertaining to the way that Mega Man uses them.

Also, a universal difference between Mega Man's and the Robot Masters' weapons is that Mega Man has limited uses on them, while the Robot Masters do not.

 

[the king of murder]

I haven't been reading everything so forgive me if it has been mentioned already but Samus has like tons of strength.

She uses her Grapple Beam to pull out Vorash who seems to be the size of a whale. Considering that lava is denser than water just adds to her strength feats.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I see. I'm not sure if we should allow teleportation-based summons, since that is outside help being brought in, as opposed to help actually being created. If we are allowing this, though, then Sonic could also get Shadow to come help via Chaos Control.

If I'm not mistaken, Sonic/Shadow can't summon other people with Chaos Control, they'd have to teleport and go get them. If that's the case, it's not a good analogy.

Sounds good, although I'd like to point out that the mini game/side quest rule would allow Chao Garden itself to be valid; the question now is if the Ring count portrayed in it is applicable here (again, working with Chao Garden being a reliable source of information).

Which is why we're doing a revote so we can bed this issue.

Thats ridicolous and PKM Trainer just can't fight any other way and its a major part of his character.

Fair enough. 1-2 (For: Kirby Dragons; Against: Muno, Bagan)

no

1-3 on Sonic getting access to the ring count he had in the black market (For: Muno; Against: me, Reckless G, Bagan)

Even if he can do that, it doesn't means he knows how to do that. Thats the point.

That makes sense. Shulk getting Zanza's powers: 2-2

Joke is on you, I don't see Zero Suit Samus being capable of dealing with Diddy's weaponary. And his agility will also proof troublesome. I don't care too much of the Metroid physics Dryn often posts here, but anyone who can dodge canonball fire has some serious athletic flexibility going on. Plus, he can pretty much do his Final Smash all day long. Unless Zero Suit Samus comes with hers (Final Smash, aka the ship) I don't see her beating Diddy at all.

Unless he can do his final smash in a DK game, it doesn't count. Plus his Final Smash would be easy to dodge in when characters aren't limited to 2.5 dimensions.
But what weapons/equipment does he have besides the peanut popgun?

Which is why I also think certain matchups need to be discussed if characters are gonna fight on foot or with their verhile. For Captain Falcon, Zero Suit Samus and the StarFox cast these details are pretty much dealbreakers.

Everyone you mentioned can get their vehicles. I'm not sure if ZSS can call for her ship without her suit, but if she can, she's allowed to use it for missile strikes.

There's more than one Charizard and Pikachu in the Pokeverse, so I don't think summoning Pit should be allowed.

I said that in my post.
Regardless: 1-3 (For: Kirby Dragons; Against: Muno, Bagan, Dryn)

The Star Fox characters arwings would prevent Marth from harming them, although I'm not sure if Marth has any abilities that protect him from harm. Arwings fire lasers and super bombs. I'm not sure what else they can do. Captain Falcon would rely on hitting his opponents with his F-Zero vehicle, which is something that's done in the F-Zero games, so it won't damage the vehicle.

Yes, but if I'm not mistaken, you had those guys below Marth, hence m confusion.

Well, I voted for that one rule about Samus' missiles, super missiles, and power bombs if and only if she was going to be receiving more than 20 energy tanks and more than 255 missiles, &c., so I thought she was already receiving more than what she typically holds. I also differentiated from "mini-game" and "side-quest". I specifically used those words when speaking to @ Munomario777 about the matter.

...What rule did we make saying Samus get's more than 20 energy tanks, 255 missiles, etc? That's not on the rules list.

If the things Zanza can do is because of the Monado, then Shulk should have the ability to do the same. However, that doesn't mean Shulk knows how or will use the same abilities Zanza can perform. It's one of those things where you could say yes, but also say no to.

That's how I feel. If he does get Zanza skills, it should only be the attack ones, because like I said, I can't see him mutating into a monster human hybrid.

It's been so long since I've discussed that. I wish I knew that about flash stopper. It still can stop projectiles, however, so it would need to be stopping time. Centaur flash ignores defenses, though, but to what extent, I'm not sure. So time stopper would be the best option for Mega Man, and he should be able to use it multiple times with the weapon tank, however. I'm glad you think Mega Man deserves to be higher up, though. If it was X, he'd be at the very top. The question is, would be higher than Sonic?

From what I can tell, Centaur Flash does extra damage against shielding enemies, but not sure to what extent.
Looking at Flash Stopper, it does indeed seem to stop projectiles while letting Megaman move.
Not as good as Time Stopper, but still pretty helpful against certain high tier foes like Palutena, Samus, Mewtwo and some others who have a lot of good projectiles.
As for Sonic, if we're going with @ Munomario777 proposed health system of Priority > commoness > benefits, the most common health system has Sonic has is losing all of his rings in one hit (granted he can usually pick some back up), so he should be able to use Time Stopper as soon as the match starts, hit him and knock out all of his rings, unfreeze then refreeze time, then hit him again and kill him.

I'd say the whole projectile thing is a game mechanic, since the in-game explanation contradicts it. Also, it appears that Mega Man can only use his Mega Buster while using Flash Stopper, so it wouldn't do him that much good anyways.

What in-game explanation are you referring to?

And I don't we can dismiss it stopping projectiles as a game mechanic. It's very possible whatever description you saw was flawed, like Nintendo saying Link's Magic Cape grants invisibility rather than intangibility.

And Sonic loses all his rings when hit, so as long as he activates it (Time Stopper) before Sonic goes Super Sonic, it would work just fine. And Mega man can activate it quicker (under a second) than Sonic goes Super Sonic.

Ah, okay.

Just because an enemy doesn't have visible eyes doesn't mean that there isn't some sort of camera in there. The turrets, for example, would greatly benefit from having a camera to aim at Mega Man and such. I'd imagine it's something like a visor on a helmet, or a heavily tinted window (or perhaps the cameras are placed around the environment). Also worth noting is the fact that most Robot Masters aren't frozen by the Flash Stopper; only Pharaoh Man is. This seems to mean that the Flash Stopper is only effective against specific robots that do have that feature installed (or most small robots).

I think it's actually the opposite: The Time Stopper doesn't work on Robot Masters because they have a specific device that blocks it's effects, minus Flash Man because its device has a flaw in it. I think it's very likely it's the same case with Flash Stopper: It's not that non-Robot Masters have a specific device built in that makes them vulnerable, but most Robot Masters have special devices that protect them from Flash Stopper.
Regardless, it doesn't work on organics (ergo Sonic), although it may work on Samus' suit and the characters driving vehicles.

I haven't been reading everything so forgive me if it has been mentioned already but Samus has like tons of strength.

She uses her Grapple Beam to pull out Vorash who seems to be the size of a whale. Considering that lava is denser than water just adds to her strength feats.

What's up, did you ever finish Awakening? Did you like it/love it/hate it?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Same difference.

Actually, it's not.

It's common knowledge that anyone with a functioning arm and hand can throw a punch. Is it stated that anyone with a Monado can perform the technique in question?

Everyone with a Monado can perform the technique, considering that it's a Monado that did it. Nothing says it's Zanza-specific.

If it hasn't been said or shown, it has no place here.

There is a statement that backs it up.

Your comparison doesn't match up. The ability to drive allows B to drive, so for Shulk, what would allow him to perform technique Y is the ability to perform technique Y, which you haven't proven that Shulk has.

Read the other comparison.

When is it stated that making yourself immune to water is an automatic application of ether manipulation?

Nothing says it has to be learned.

Pikachus have been shown to be able to learn Electro Ball. Shulk has not been shown to perform technique Y.

And Monados have been shown to perform technique Y. Shulk has a Monado.

This is pretty much the same as Sonic controlling time. Not something he's actually done before, AFAIK.

 

[Munomario777]

If I'm not mistaken, Sonic/Shadow can't summon other people with Chaos Control, they'd have to teleport and go get them. If that's the case, it's not a good analogy.

I meant using it to teleport in to help Sonic, but good point.

Which is why we're doing a revote so we can bed this issue.

Okay, just reminding everyone that the Chao Garden's validity as a whole isn't the issue being voted on.

As for Sonic, if we're going with @ Munomario777 proposed health system of Priority > commoness > benefits, the most common health system has Sonic has is losing all of his rings in one hit (granted he can usually pick some back up), so he should be able to use Time Stopper as soon as the match starts, hit him and knock out all of his rings, unfreeze then refreeze time, then hit him again and kill him.

A) Super Sonic
B) Shields
C) Ring Capsule items (which grant a backup ten Rings)

What in-game explanation are you referring to?

"Unlike Time Stopper, the Flash Stopper emits an intense light that activates a safety device in the camera eyes of robots, blinding them for a short period, which makes them unable to move and open for attacks."

And I don't we can dismiss it stopping projectiles as a game mechanic. It's very possible whatever description you saw was flawed, like Nintendo saying Link's Magic Cape grants invisibility rather than intangibility.

Invisibility and intangibility are similar and rather commonly confused. The same doesn't really apply to freezing time vs. emitting a flash of light.

And Sonic loses all his rings when hit, so as long as he activates it (Time Stopper) before Sonic goes Super Sonic, it would work just fine. And Mega man can activate it quicker (under a second) than Sonic goes Super Sonic.

The Super Sonic transformation is quick as well.

I think it's actually the opposite: The Time Stopper doesn't work on Robot Masters because they have a specific device that blocks it's effects, minus Flash Man because its device has a flaw in it. I think it's very likely it's the same case with Flash Stopper: It's not that non-Robot Masters have a specific device built in that makes them vulnerable, but most Robot Masters have special devices that protect them from Flash Stopper.
Regardless, it doesn't work on organics (ergo Sonic), although it may work on Samus' suit and the characters driving vehicles.

The description states that it's taking advantage of a safety device that's in the cameras, though.

Actually, it's not.

You're a human that can punch, your sister is a human that can punch. It doesn't affect the analogy.

Everyone with a Monado can perform the technique, considering that it's a Monado that did it. Nothing says it's Zanza-specific.

When does it say that the Monado was the sole driving force behind the technique, and that Zanza didn't have any influence?

There is a statement that backs it up.

Which is?

Nothing says it has to be learned.

A cat does not have to learn how to grow its claws, yet humans cannot grow claws. Just because it doesn't have to be learned doesn't mean that anyone can do it.

And Monados have been shown to perform technique Y. Shulk has a Monado.

Cars have been shown to drift, but not all cars and drivers can drift.

This is pretty much the same as Sonic controlling time. Not something he's actually done before, AFAIK.

Sonic can perform Chaos Control.
Chaos Control is a time-freezing maneuver.
Therefore, Sonic can perform a time-freezing maneuver.

 

[Crystanium]

He has the Mega Upper and such (at least in other games). I've proven that Special Weapons can vary from the ones used by Robot Masters they come from, so because of these inconsistencies, we should only use data specifically pertaining to the way that Mega Man uses them.

Also, a universal difference between Mega Man's and the Robot Masters' weapons is that Mega Man has limited uses on them, while the Robot Masters do not.

You've only proved one (possibly two) differences. Please address the firestorm and atomic fire temperatures.

I haven't been reading everything so forgive me if it has been mentioned already but Samus has like tons of strength.

She uses her Grapple Beam to pull out Vorash who seems to be the size of a whale. Considering that lava is denser than water just adds to her strength feats.

177 metric tons.

Yes, but if I'm not mistaken, you had those guys below Marth, hence m confusion.

I don't recall putting Marth in my tier list.

...What rule did we make saying Samus get's more than 20 energy tanks, 255 missiles, etc? That's not on the rules list.

We didn't make that rule. The rule was that Samus gets her typical missiles, super missiles, and power bombs, and that once they run out, they're out for good. Or that's the impression I was getting, since it seemed no one wanted Samus to be permitted the ability to use concentration, since that'd be infinite missiles, super missiles, and power bombs. I said I would be fine with that, provided Samus ends up having all the missiles, super missiles, and power bombs combined from all the games.

From what I can tell, Centaur Flash does extra damage against shielding enemies, but not sure to what extent.
Looking at Flash Stopper, it does indeed seem to stop projectiles while letting Megaman move.
Not as good as Time Stopper, but still pretty helpful against certain high tier foes like Palutena, Samus, Mewtwo and some others who have a lot of good projectiles.
As for Sonic, if we're going with @ Munomario777 proposed health system of Priority > commoness > benefits, the most common health system has Sonic has is losing all of his rings in one hit (granted he can usually pick some back up), so he should be able to use Time Stopper as soon as the match starts, hit him and knock out all of his rings, unfreeze then refreeze time, then hit him again and kill him.

I don't subscribe to that notion, but if that's what Munomario777 works with, then it may be no benefit to him. By the way, what is "priority"?

 

[Munomario777]

You've only proved one (possibly two) differences. Please address the firestorm and atomic fire temperatures.

Okay, then. Using a color temperature scale, the outer red areas of the flames seem to be around 500 degrees Celsius, while the inner yellow areas seem to be around 2500.

By the way, what is "priority"?

Lore > gameplay > other sources and all that.

 

[Crystanium]

Okay, then. Using a color temperature scale, the outer red areas of the flames seem to be around 500 degrees Celsius, while the inner yellow areas seem to be around 2500.

That's the argument I provided, but I'm honestly not certain. It's like taking Magcargo's description about having a temperature of 18,000°F, even though 1,800°F would make more sense. We could use that for an argument against firestorm and atomic fire, but I'm not sure what other Mega Man proponents will think.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

I recently played Uprising again, and watched the anime shorts, and have come to the conclusion that even with her high rating, she is underrated. I'm going to do a long breakdown of what makes her so awesome. Because I don't expect anyone to read all of this, I'm bolding the most notable ones.

General Powers:

• Power of Caging: Sends several dozen beams of lights with some homing capabilities at foe that entrap them in cages like this, but with thick bars.
• Power of Maelstorm: Can summon a downpour, thunderstorm and high speed winds that can move an unmoving or slow moving person.
• Astral Projection: Can make a giant (several stories high) projection. While doing so, she threw several giant islands floating nearby at Pit, however she didn't touch them, so she likely moved them with strong wind gusts.
• Force Field: Made a giant force field that could only be broken through with Pit riding the lightning chariot at full speed. I'll presume it's max speed is the same as lightning (670million mph) since: it's called the lightning chariot and it's used to travel throughout the galaxy. Also seems to be one way since she was still sending out her troops to attack Pit and Earth.
• Heat immunity: States Gods are less flammable and takes multiple explosions to the face withouts signs of damage or appearing to be in pain afterwords
• Palutena's Bow: Charged shot 176ft. Continuous shots 111ft. Gets stronger over distance.
• Wolf Claws: Charged shot goes 78ft and homes onto opponents, still shot goes 65. Causes burning effect. Melee strikes twice as powerful as shots.
• Agility: The aim wasn't great on all of them, but she dodged vegetables being shot out like bullets without any powers. Also rather athletic, capable of doing flips and stuff
• Vehicle creation: Capable of making a variety of vehicles appear like a roughly 12 ft tall mech that can fire energy balls rapidly and a exobike (motorcycle that shoots out beams). Wouldn't help her, but could give them to her Centurions
• Centurions: 3 kinds she can summon. All Fly faster and more agile (i.e. dodge better) than Pit. She can revive them as well.
  • Basic centurion: Shoot bows and arrows.
  • Centurion Strongarms: On ground segments they attack using punches and powerful pile drivers, but in flying sections (and while engaging at long range) they attack by throwing large dumbbells. they attack using punches and powerful pile drivers, but in flying sections (and while engaging Pit at long range) they attack by throwing large dumbbells. Very muscular, nearly 10ft tall
  • The Centurion Knights,specialize in wielding a halberd and shield. Wear shining clad armour and helmets, making them tougher than the usual soldier. Weaker than Centurion Strongarms, but more intelligent. Centurion Knights can be defeated in one hit by attacking their backs, otherwise their shields must be destroyed, revealing the body to be attacked.
• Binding: Binds a several stories high Medusa that not only keeps her from moving, but stops her from teleporting as well!
• Glam Blaster: Fires a gigantic beam from sky that destroys a dragon head. Takes 16 seconds to reach that level, but she notes that she could have stopped charging earlier if she wanted to. Could be VERY useful in combination with her barrier.

Light Attacks:

• Floating Triple Light Volley: 3 balls of light float horizontally in front of her head (and move with her if she does) that can fire 3 consecutive shots out of them
• Triple Light Volley: Same as above, but fired from staff rather than floating light balls
• Light machine gun: Fires 9 consecutive balls of light from one that floats over her head.
• Halo: a slow moving halo that can fire 3 fast light balls.
• Flash: raises her shield for defense and after 2 seconds, unleashes a blinding light that lasts 3 seconds.
• Light speed dash: Doesn't go at light speed, but does move extremely fast while she's covered in a beam of light.
  • I'd estimate all of the above go about 196ft, but need to retest to be sure.
• Counter: Unlike the Power version, this one seems more conscious and involves her spinning in a circle while giving off a burst of light.

Finally, her more notable Powers. Note: powers from same category can't be used at same time.

Attack

• Mega Laser - Fire a massive laser for 6 seconds that travels about 492 feet (for reference, that’s 1.6 football fields)
• Meteor Shower - Release a deluge of shooting stars. In an area about 5 feet wide, 33 feet long, 8 meteors attack in the span of 3 seconds, causing explosions as big as listed, and about 12 feet high. Ideally used about 50 feet away because too far or too close, and some or all will miss.
• Explosive Flame - Power bomb on steroids. Set off a massive explosion that lasts about 6 about and expands to about 62 feet in diameter. Starts off about half of that.
• Black Hole - Create a black hole that pulls enemies toward it.
• Heavenly Light - Covers you in light in ridiculously tall light pillar but only does minor damage

Recover:

• Health Recovery - Recover about 50% health.
• Pisces Heal- When taking lethal damage, the user is automatically healed by the same amount of damage that would normally be inflicted by the fatal attack
• Effect Recovery - Dispel status ailments
• Crisis Recovery - Recover instantly from Crisis mode (basically 1 hp left)

Enhance

• Weak-Point Reticle - Target enemies' weak points automatically when attacking.
• Shake Attack - Attacks inflicting a shaking status on a foe, so it has a harder time aiming. Projectile users beware!
• Slip Shot - Fire shots that pass through solid objects, like walls. Lasts 20 seconds
• Confuse Attack - Attacks inflict a confused status on a foe, which makes it move and shoot unpredictably. Enhancement lasts 16 seconds, confusion status lasts 6 seconds.
• Freeze Attack- May freeze foes. Lasts about 16 seconds; foes freeze for 4. Needs further testing, but froze target enemy on like 3 of 5 shots.
• Invisible shots - Makes the shots you fire invisible. Lasts about 20 seconds
• Libra Sponge – For 28 seconds, Use attacks received to increase the strength of your own attacks.
• Energy Charge - Build up energy and increase the power of your attacks. Taking damage nullifies this effect. Increases attack strength by 80%. IDK how long the upper limit is, I quit timing after a minute.

Buff

• Bumblebee - Dodge all attacks by vanishing and circling around the enemy in an instant. Lasts 24 seconds
• Counter: When attacked you will automatically retaliate. Also prevents knockback. Differs from hers in that it’s done automatically. Turned into a reflex, you could say. Lasts 24 seconds.
• Playing Dead – For 8 seconds, Fool enemies into thinking you're finished, then turn invisible, making attacks pass through you. Palutena can still attack.

MOVEMENT

• Aries Armor - Reduces damage received, and prevents status effects and getting knocked back.
• Rocket Jump - Launch yourself upward (roughly 11 feet) with the force of a rocket that’s causes an explosion about 32 feet in diameter. Good way to dodge some melee attacks and hit foes.
• Super Speed - Run extremely fast and knock weakened foes into the air when you bump into them. Presumably, should double her flying/levitating speed as well.

Item

Item vacuum: Draws items towards you. Not sure about range, but since it's the only item power, she can just wear it throughout battle to keep the Mario characters from transforming.

This took a REALLY long time to type, so I'll have to respond to any posts later. But in the meantime, I think you all need to boost Palutena up on your tier lists.

BTW, since we're allowing all summons, shouldn't Palutena get to summon Pit @ Nerdicon , @ Munomario777 , @Dryn , @ Kirby Dragons , @ BaganSmashBros , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 ? Just because he's fighting should count, since technically Charizard and Pikachu are on here and also Red's team (I know that their a whole species of them). I think as long as she's not fighting Pit, she should be able to summon Pit.

Video links of powers in action please?

I will abstain on the summon question for now.

I see. Can he craft weapons and such mid-battle?

Are you paying attention?

Logically, Shulk would be able to make himself immune to water.

Why not go all the way and make him immune to being KOed? I do remember that the weapons held by Meyneth (her Monado http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Meyneth_Monado), Dickson (Zanza’s disciple http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Sabre), and Alvis (Monado incarnate http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Claymore) all come with the Unbeatable 100% gem (which typically maxs out at 50%) implying they wield enough power to avoid being knocked out by conventional means. Anyone who brings up that 1st Battle of Sword Valley characters Mumkhar and Monado Dunban have it too can be countered with that being a tutorial battle versus the other 3 instances being later in the game.

True, but we don't really know what all it can do once it morphs. It'll be hard to have discussions if every Shulk counter is something like "he can do anything to counter because he can form the Monado into an unbreakable shield". It's just too much specualtion for me. I'm cool for letting him do anything with Monado Zanza did, but I'd be against him morphing it since we never see it happen. FYI, does Zanza just naturally have wings, or was that a product of the Monado?

An unbreakable shield won’t stop it‘s bearer from being thrown backwards by a powerful enough blow. Here’s an example of a Monado’s power and the aftermath when it is in the form of an emblem https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...ist=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=1562 at 26:02-26:22 and 27:10-27:32.

Zanza was a normal human scientist before he acquired his Monado, and it seems like he can add them at will https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...XRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&v=OUNiW6HaqhE#t=1139 at 18:59-19:05. I suspect they are only for decoration as Meyneth's current body lacks wings but can still engage him in an aerial battle https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...XRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&v=OUNiW6HaqhE#t=1698 at 28:18-28:36. Meyneth’s flight probably stems from this https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...&v=1obcq7Da2k0&feature=player_detailpage#t=90 at 1:30-1:58.

The difference here is that you've been shown to be able to throw a punch (which is a near universal trait of human beings), while Shulk hasn't been shown to perform this character specific (AFAIK) action.

Has he done this before?

It’s a Monado specific trait not a character specific one. You could give Sonic, Kirby or Olimar their own Monados and they would be able to use it at least as well as Zanza did when he first received his.

Why would it matter if he had done this before? We are working with a man who managed to pull Monado Shield, Speed and Cyclone out of nowhere (unlike Enchant and Buster which have been known about since the Battle of Sword Valley, Purge which he learned from Alvis and Eater and Armor which were learned via texts). According to your logic Link and Zelda can't replicate the King of Hyrule's wish to wash away Hyrule forever!

There is a better comparison:
Human A and Human B can (i mean their bodies allow that) drive a car, but only A knows how to drive it. B has to learn how to do it and thats the only thing preventing him from driving it.
Same thing is here.

Shulk never learned how to use Monado Shield or Speed but he was able to use them in an emergency anyway. The Monado seems to act like the Paper Mario Star Rod or complete Triforce where all you have to do is will it to happen https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...ist=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=1171 at 19:31-19:56. For example if I had a Monado, I would will into existence a space battleship with pizza replicators and an onboard factory of Earth conquering robots loyal to me, and the best part is I don’t have to know how all that stuff actually works to get it into existence.

Canonball going slower than a running monkey to be speciffic.

chimpanzee not monkey, do you want diddy kong to throw poop at you?

Because he probably doesn't knows how to?
You can't drive a car without knowing where is everything and what does this button do- *alarm activates*.

I doubt that Meyneth and Zanza knew how to fill the world with life or fly before they actually did so, but they wound up doing those feats regardless. Pressing a button is precisely how that mess happened!

Ok, this is going nowhere. I don't know how exactly that ether manipulation is done, but is it something complicated like X color Lantern constructions or more like "Hey, muhnadoh, gimme dem wingz *wings appear" Thanks bruh"? If latter one, then my argument fails.

The latter argument is likely the correct one. Think of the Monado being like a genie, except with infinite wishes and no literal wish screwery nonsense.

That's why getting behind his opponent and using a devastating attack would be preferable. It's not my place to say that the temperature for firestorm is 700 to 800°C or atomic fire to be 1,200°C. My only arguments for these is that Mega Man will die from falling into lava and the range for lava is anywhere between 700 to 1,500°C and that these heat ranges coincide with the color temperature. I don't know what the Japanese texts say for these. At the more reasonable temperatures, though, I'm not sure if Sonic can even withstand at least 1,200°C. If we stick with the numbers because "it's canon", then I'll be hard pressed to find anyone on the roster who can survive atomic fire.

I’d imagine Mega Man is OHKOed by lava because he can’t get back out once he falls in. What is Mega Man made out of anyway?

That's how I feel. If he does get Zanza skills, it should only be the attack ones, because like I said, I can't see him mutating into a monster human hybrid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...ist=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=1737 at 28:57-29:04 may explain Shulk's reluctance to push the boundaries of the Monado's power. Replace Zanza with Samus, Palutena or Sonic in that sentence and he would be forced to make use of more of the Monado's power.

C) Ring Capsule items (which grant a backup ten Rings)

Are you referring to the ring monitor with this as I didn’t know Sonic could carry those things around?

Does Roy’s Sword of Seals have the properties to finish Ganondorf off (http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Sword_of_Seals which is supposed to be superior to http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Legendary_Weapons_of_Elibe which caused the http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Ending_Winter)? I don’t think Marth’s Falchion is up to the task of slaying Ganondorf.

A big problem while deciding a tier list is PK Flash (http://earthbound.wikia.com/wiki/PK_Flash) wielded by Ness and Lucas. Does PK Flash pass through windshields (Star Fox and Captain Falcon), visors (Samus), or effect robots (Mega Man). Can it effect characters under the effects of invincibility? Which characters have equipment that can nullify it’s effects?

Do Mario characters have access to equipment from the Paper Mario games?

How long can the Arwings remain airborne before running out of fuel or suffering mechanical difficulties from wear and tear (G-Diffuser)?

Can Yoshi bring eggs into battle for projectile purposes? How big of an enemy can Yoshi swallow?

How well can Samus’s gunship perform in an air battle with the Star Fox crew?

How Shulk’s visions work from the canon point of view https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9L...list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=914 at 15:14-16:33 and 17:06-17:20. I wonder if this means he can still anticipate attacks from invisible opponents.

 

[Munomario777]

Are you paying attention?

Yes. Often in games a certain location/tool therein (such as an anvil) is required to forge weapons, and it wasn't specified in that post.

It’s a Monado specific trait not a character specific one. You could give Sonic, Kirby or Olimar their own Monados and they would be able to use it at least as well as Zanza did when he first received his.

When is this stated? Also, are Zanza's and Shulk's Monado one in the same?

Why would it matter if he had done this before?

Because that's how we can determine if he can do it or not.

We are working with a man who managed to pull Monado Shield, Speed and Cyclone out of nowhere (unlike Enchant and Buster which have been known about since the Battle of Sword Valley, Purge which he learned from Alvis and Eater and Armor which were learned via texts).

And?

According to your logic Link and Zelda can't replicate the King of Hyrule's wish to wash away Hyrule forever!

A) They can't in this scenario, because they're not getting the Triforce here.
B) The Triforce is stated to be able to grant any wish.

Are you referring to the ring monitor with this as I didn’t know Sonic could carry those things around?

Actually, I'm referring to the items in Lost World, which can be carried in an inventory and used at any time.

Do Mario characters have access to equipment from the Paper Mario games?

I would vote no, since there seem to be many differences between it and the main series (plus, the series is called Mario Story in Japan, and seems to be a storybook on a different level than the main series).

Can Yoshi bring eggs into battle for projectile purposes? How big of an enemy can Yoshi swallow?

Yes, since eggs are ammo, and everyone gets maximum ammo. As for the size of the enemies, we should use the biggest object that he's been seen swallowing.

 

[Crystanium]

I’d imagine Mega Man is OHKOed by lava because he can’t get back out once he falls in. What is Mega Man made out of anyway?

That could be a possibility. Mega Man is made of ceramic titanium, so the closest alloy to that in real life would be titanium carbide, which has a higher melting point. Or we could just work with titanium for a safer assumption. However, having a higher melting point doesn't necessarily mean that Mega Man's interior is well insulated against extreme temperatures.

How well can Samus’s gunship perform in an air battle with the Star Fox crew?

Samus' gunship would need to be able to travel fast enough to escape orbit, putting her ship at least at 11.2 kilometers per second. Her speed can go up to 7.2 times the speed of light, however. Her ship is also "outfitted with enough firepower to survive firefights against bigger and more numerous foes" and is "equipped with twin Power Beam turrets and a retractable rear-mounted Plasma Beam cannon", according to the official Metroid Prime Web site.

I also think Mario should be granted with Paper Mario abilities.

Yes, since eggs are ammo, and everyone gets maximum ammo. As for the size of the enemies, we should use the biggest object that he's been seen swallowing.

In the New Super Mario Bros. for the Wii, from what I recall, Yoshi can grab Mario, Luigi, and/or Toad. He cannot swallow them, but I'm not sure if the reason is due to the fact that they're not enemies or if Yoshi is just incapable of swallowing enemies of that size.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

You're a human that can punch, your sister is a human that can punch. It doesn't affect the analogy.

Zanza is a Monado wielder that can control his body. Shulk is a Monado wielder that can control his body.

When does it say that the Monado was the sole driving force behind the technique, and that Zanza didn't have any influence?

I think it's pretty obvious that a Monado technique comes from a Monado only.

Which is?

That Shulk can alter ether, and also that ether makes up life.

A cat does not have to learn how to grow its claws, yet humans cannot grow claws. Just because it doesn't have to be learned doesn't mean that anyone can do it.

Cat physiology is what enables the cat to grow claws. Monado wielding is what enables the wielder to control themself.

Sonic can perform Chaos Control.
Chaos Control is a time-freezing maneuver.
Therefore, Sonic can perform a time-freezing maneuver.

Shulk can use ether manipulation.
Ether manipulation is a body manipulation technique.
Therefore, Shulk can perform a body manipulating maneuver.

I'm also going to point out that time manipulation can only be used by two Super characters, like Super Sonic and Super Shadow. Sonic is just one person, so he can't use it.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Okay, just reminding everyone that the Chao Garden's validity as a whole isn't the issue being voted on.

Got it.

A) Super Sonic
B) Shields
C) Ring Capsule items (which grant a backup ten Rings)

A) addressed below, although you left a counter point.
B) Shields are pretty much applied instantly, no?
C) How many can he hold?

"Unlike Time Stopper, the Flash Stopper emits an intense light that activates a safety device in the camera eyes of robots, blinding them for a short period, which makes them unable to move and open for attacks."

Doesn't prevent it from stopping projectiles though. We can't say a bonus ability that's not covered is necessarily a game mechanic. And did you get that from the wiki?

Invisibility and intangibility are similar and rather commonly confused. The same doesn't really apply to freezing time vs. emitting a flash of light.

Fair point, but they probably assume you know it freezes time from actually using it in battle.

The Super Sonic transformation is quick as well.

Mega man uses Flash Stopper exactly 2 seconds after this video starts. Can you say that, given Sonic has to jump, that Megaman's activation isn't quicker?

The description states that it's taking advantage of a safety device that's in the cameras, though.

So you don't think it would work on Samus and vehicles?

I don't recall putting Marth in my tier list.

I might have yours confused with Nerdicons.

We didn't make that rule. The rule was that Samus gets her typical missiles, super missiles, and power bombs, and that once they run out, they're out for good. Or that's the impression I was getting, since it seemed no one wanted Samus to be permitted the ability to use concentration, since that'd be infinite missiles, super missiles, and power bombs. I said I would be fine with that, provided Samus ends up having all the missiles, super missiles, and power bombs combined from all the games.

Ok, just so you know, Sonic's ring total comes from multiple levels in one game, not multiple games. (He never carrys over rings between levels but they all accumulate at the Black Market in both Sonic Adventure games, and can't carry these rings back to the action level).

I don't subscribe to that notion, but if that's what Munomario777 works with, then it may be no benefit to him. By the way, what is "priority"?

The Health system used in more canon games take precedence over HP used in side games (i.e. most games Sonic's health is based on his rings, but in fighter games he has HP bar).

Video links of powers in action please?

Only some of those powers have links, but here is a link to a thread with links to some of those powers.

I will abstain on the summon question for now.

You actually already voted and it already passed anyway so......

Why not go all the way and make him immune to being KOed? I do remember that the weapons held by Meyneth (her Monado http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Meyneth_Monado), ****son (Zanza’s disciple http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Sabre), and Alvis (Monado incarnate http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Claymore) all come with the Unbeatable 100% gem (which typically maxs out at 50%) implying they wield enough power to avoid being knocked out by conventional means. Anyone who brings up that 1st Battle of Sword Valley characters Mumkhar and Monado Dunban have it too can be countered with that being a tutorial battle versus the other 3 instances being later in the game.

I'd also counter with those later 3 instances all being guest characters who were given that so they wouldn't die in battle.

An unbreakable shield won’t stop it‘s bearer from being thrown backwards by a powerful enough blow. Here’s an example of a Monado’s power and the aftermath when it is in the form of an emblem https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...ist=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=1562 at 26:02-26:22 and 27:10-27:32.

I guess, but I think we should keep the Monado's power to thing it's actually seen doing. Whether, by his or another Monado.

Zanza was a normal human scientist before he acquired his Monado, and it seems like he can add them at will https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...XRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&v=OUNiW6HaqhE#t=1139 at 18:59-19:05. I suspect they are only for decoration as Meyneth's current body lacks wings but can still engage him in an aerial battle https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...XRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&v=OUNiW6HaqhE#t=1698 at 28:18-28:36. Meyneth’s flight probably stems from this https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...&v=1obcq7Da2k0&feature=player_detailpage#t=90 at 1:30-1:58.

So it might just be something they can do as gods...

Does Roy’s Sword of Seals have the properties to finish Ganondorf off (http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Sword_of_Seals I don’t think Marth’s Falchion is up to the task of slaying Ganondorf.

Yes Roy's Sword of Seals can and Marth's Falchion can as well because it comes from the fang of divine dragon. BTW, can we put spoiler tags on any Binding Blade/Fire Emblem 6/Roy talk? I'm currently playing it and don't want spoilers.

A big problem while deciding a tier list is PK Flash (http://earthbound.wikia.com/wiki/PK_Flash) wielded by Ness and Lucas. Does PK Flash pass through windshields (Star Fox and Captain Falcon), visors (Samus), or effect robots (Mega Man). Can it effect characters under the effects of invincibility? Which characters have equipment that can nullify it’s effects?

It should affect all of those except invincible characters. Equipment that resists status ailments/OHKOs would nullify it.

Do Mario characters have access to equipment from the Paper Mario games?

Yes.

How long can the Arwings remain airborne before running out of fuel or suffering mechanical difficulties from wear and tear (G-Diffuser)?

I think they stay in air all game but simply can't boost if out of fuel. Someone should look that up.

How Shulk’s visions work from the canon point of view https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9L...list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=914 at 15:14-16:33 and 17:06-17:20. I wonder if this means he can still anticipate attacks from invisible opponents.

[/QUOTE]
I think so. I wonder if it would stay on all battle since Shulk's life would be in extra danger vs an invisible foe.

When is this stated? Also, are Zanza's and Shulk's Monado one in the same?

Yes, Zanza takes the Monado that's originally Shulks, but Shulk ends up getting the Monado III, which is stronger than it.

Yes, since eggs are ammo, and everyone gets maximum ammo. As for the size of the enemies, we should use the biggest object that he's been seen swallowing.

agreed, although I don't know what those are.

 

[Nerdicon]

I'm going to start to make a more accurate tier list of mine based on a match-up system. I'll give certain characters a ratio based on how many characters they can beat and how many they can't beat. When I have everyone I'll have my definitive tier list. It's easiest to start with the top tiers as they beat a majority of the cast making the process quicker. With the top tiers I'll only bring up the characters they lose to and specific cases of close victories
I'll start with Pit!

Spoiler

vs.
He only loses this one if Bowser has unlimited star rod abilities, but since the popular opinion seems to be NOOOO!!!! on that front Pit beats him
VICTORY
vs.
These two have the same abilities, but Pit has the 3ST and GST so there is a clear winner.
VICTORY
vs.
In these confined areas, the GST beats Arwings 100% of the time, no questions asked
VICTORY
vs.
He can't really deal with the bullet storm (arrow storm?) that the GST creates
VICTORY
vs.
Pit may be inherently holy but as the late Water Sage taught us, that's clearly not enough. His spread of Holy Weaponry is pretty limted, the 3ST being his best option but Ganon has more than an effective arsenal to deal with it
DEFEAT
vs.
A lot of Kirby's abilities walk all over Pit, in particular Mirror and Hypernova really shut down Pit's options.
Combined with the Warp Star, doesn't stand a chance.
DEFEAT
vs.
This was a hard call, but Pit really can't compete with 3 days of invincibility. With no way to heal, Pit would eventually lose
DEFEAT
vs.
I've explained this one. Samus wins
DEFEAT
vs.
Palutena may be his "superior", but can she really compete with the likes of the GST? Pit beat Medusa who has very similar power to Palutena so this shouldn't be too hard
VICTORY
vs.
Haha! You lose!
DEFEAT
vs.
3fast5you
DEFEAT
vs.
Another hard call, but can Shulk effectively counter someone moving at 1350 km per hour? Not to mention that most of Shulk's arsenal isn't made for fighting distant enemies. I would also say could he beat a giant mech, buuuuuuuut...
VICTORY
vs.
With him flying at least similar speed to the warp star on the Milky Way Wishes map, as well as having a decent spread of attacks, Pit would have a hard time. I honestly think MK's speed pushes this over the edge in Meta Knight's favor
DEFEAT

So tallying up his win loss ratio, Pit has a 43:7 win/loss rate. Keep in mind that I don't count Miis when doing this tally. Dark Pit (since he is so similar) I'll do as well, and I doubt he could beat Palutena with no godly assistance and no Sacred Treasure making his rate 41:9.
If there are any match-ups you guys feel need to be detailed just tell me. Now for voting!
I don't have a specific post, but mini-games should not have the same priority as the main canon. That's ridiculous.
...That's about it actually, I didn't have much to say.