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Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

Crystanium

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:4samus: vs.
:4bowser:: Samus has dealt with enemies capable of producing flames, possessing hard shells, and dwelling in lava and magma. The ice beam is able to prevent Ridley's fireballs in MZM and is capable of freezing the chalae on space pirates so that they're unable to shoot at Samus. The combination of the diffusion beam or diffusion missile should greatly assist Samus in battle so that Bowser is immobilized. +1

:4bowserjr:: I haven't seen any impressive feats from Bowser Jr. I own both Super Mario Sunshine and the New Super Mario Bros. for the Wii, so unless there's another game with Bowser Jr. in it (aside from Mario Kart: Double Dash), I don't see Bowser Jr. winning if his dad couldn't. +1

:4falcon:: While Captain Falcon's Blue Falcon is fast and speeds up faster than Samus' speed booster, all Samus needs is that one second in order to travel supersonic speeds. The Blue Falcon is vulnerable to extreme heat, as demonstrated in F-Zero GX and does not perform well on icy surfaces, which Samus can take advantage of. Samus will also be able to react in time, should Captain Falcon attempt smashing into her. +1

:4charizard:: Charizard's flame is able to melt boulders, meaning that Charizard's flame could at least produce 700°C. He is also capable of flying very high, so it's not like Samus could escape Charizard if she wanted to. However, Samus has dealt with Ridley, who—as far as I'm aware—has better feats. Samus has the ice beam, which is effective against creatures capable of producing flames of their own, and considering Charizard's size, it would be possible for Samus to completely freeze it with either the diffusion beam or diffusion missile. +1

:4darkpit:: While Dark Pit is capable of flight and possesses weapons that can fire over 100 meters, Samus is much faster and equally possesses the abilities Dark Pit has. If the screw attack can instantly kill dragotixs, FG-1,000s, gigafraugs, kyratians, and space pirates, then it shouldn't be a problem for Samus to do the same against Dark Pit. +1

:4dedede:: King Dedede is neither more durable, nor faster than Samus, and if spark attacks can harm King Dedede, then he'll stand no chance against Samus' plasma beam. +1

:4diddy:: Diddy Kong's firepower and flight is no problem for Samus. +1

:4dk:: With his inability to react and respond to Samus' firepower, speed, and flight, DK doesn't stand a chance. He'll need to rely on close-combat to have a possible chance at winning. +1

:4drmario:: No comment. +1

:4duckhunt:: No comment. +1

:4falco:: Since Falco will be flying in his ship, it'll be more difficult for Samus to attack if he flies too high. She'll have to wait for Falco to come and attack her, just as she had done so against Meta Ridley in Metroid Prime. I'm not aware of what the arwing can attack with, except lasers and a bomb of some sort. I'm not sure what the range is for the bomb. 0

:4fox:: See Falco's critique. 0

:4ganondorf:: Ganondorf is very powerful with magic and his ability to take punishment comes from the fact that he possesses the Triforce of Power. However, like a good majority of demons, Ganondorf is vulnerable to light attacks. The light beam shares some qualities of the light arrows in that it is a weapon used to combat dark creatures of hatred from a dark world known as Aether. If the light crystals and beacons, as well as the lightbringer possesses life-giving energy, then it might be possible that the light beam also possesses this quality. Samus could defeat Ganondorf by charging up the light beam, stunning Ganondorf (if not outright killing him) and then fire the darkburst to send him in another dimension or the sonic boom to rip him apart. +1

:4gaw:: No comment. +1

:4greninja:: Considering water-types are vulnerable to electric-types, Samus could fire the wavebuster to electrocute Greninja. +1

:4myfriends:: I don't know enough about Ike.

:4jigglypuff:: Jigglypuff should be no threat to Samus. +1

:4kirby:: Kirby shares similar abilities to Samus, but he's not as durable or as fast as Samus, even with his wheelie ability. If Kirby is granted his warp star, then Samus is granted her gunship, still putting her above Kirby. +1

:4littlemac:: Little Mac supposedly knocked out Donkey Kong, but considering that game was out before Donkey Kong Country Returns, that feat will be ignored. Little Mac has no way to keep up with Samus. +1

:4link:: While Link possesses a vast quantity of gear and other useful items, he has no way to keep up with Samus' speed and firepower. His magic armor can protect him, but only to a certain degree. If Link decides to use the magic cape, Samus will be able to see him with her x-ray, thermal, dark, or echo visor. With her reaction time, Link won't be able to hit Samus. +1

:4lucario:: There might be more to Lucario than I know, so I won't do anything with this yet.

:4lucas:: PSI love and PSI flash might be a devastating attack. I'm not sure how powerful it is in the real world, nor do I know the range of the attack, but I think this is an attack Samus should be careful with. With his shield some attacks can be halved. I don't know if this applies to elemental attacks as well. Otherwise, it could be of use. Counter will reflect physical attacks. If I understand this correctly, it's referring to attacks that come in direct contact. However, there is PSI shield and PSI counter. The former is similar to shield, and the latter only protects Lucas from PSI attacks, none of which Samus has.

Lucas can constantly increase his attack power using offense up and increase his defense with defense up. I'm not sure how defense up works. I don't know if this would actually apply to the shield and counter attacks, or if it's making Lucas temporarily dense. Either way, I don't know how Lucas will be able to keep up with Samus, regardless. With the use of the Franklin badge, Lucas will be immune to Samus' plasma beam from the 2D games and the wave beam from Metroid Prime, but he's still vulnerable to other attacks. +1

:4lucina:: I don't know enough about this character.

:4luigi:: In Super Mario 64 DS, Luigi is able to charge up for about 1.5 seconds before running on water. This means that Luigi is capable of running at least 30 m/s (67.11 mi/h). With the Poltergust 3,000, Luigi can shoot flames, water, and even freeze things, although he can only use one at a time. From what I recall, he needs to collect medals to do this, so I don't know if the Poltergust 3,000 will be as helpful. +1

:4mario:: With the super suit, Mario will be able to counter most of Samus' beam weapons. However, the suit likely protects only the parts covered, similarly to a bullet proof vest and not the parts exposed. While the super suit will protect Mario from elemental attacks, we don't know if this applies to dark or light attacks, as it isn't demonstrated to my knowledge. The wave beam from the 2D games also functions differently from the wave beam in the Metroid Prime trilogy. Samus also has missiles, super missiles, and power bombs. Should beam weapons fail, Samus has other means. Perhaps the starman would assist Mario with brief invincibility, but the wave beam and nova beam can pierce defenses, so it's not certain if the starman would protect Mario. +1

:4marth:: I don't know enough about Marth to make a critique.

:4megaman:: Mega Man has the ability to stop time, and while he is unable to harm his opponents with the exception of one boss, he can use the time stopper to get behind Samus and attack with any other attack. In Metroid: Other M, Samus has a 75% damage reduction. Adding the Phazon suit's 50% damage reduction gives a total of 125%. Then there is the unnamed armor Samus acquires at the end of Metroid Fusion, but this just may be Samus' original defense, not a new type of defense. So at 125%, if Samus is hit by atomic fire, she should be immune. Think of it this way. At 75% damage reduction, she should be receiving 9,000 centigrade. Since 125% of 12,000 centigrade is 15,000, and since 15,000 is greater than 12,000, it completely ignores the damage.

Assume this isn't the case, however. How far is Mega Man going to be from Samus? We know he's vulnerable to extreme heat, and even if we assume his body is made up of an equivalent to titanium carbide, a single power bomb is going to be devastating, especially if the temperature is 6,000 K (5,726.85 centigrade). I feel this battle could work either way, honestly, so I am going to say the match-up is fairly neutral. 0

:4metaknight:: I don't think Meta Knight has a chance against Samus. While one might say that Meta Knight flies through space, putting him at hypersonic speeds, the same has been thought of for Ridley in the early Metroid games. The Super Smash Bros. Melee trophy says Ridley flies through space. This is based on Super Metroid where Ridley steals the Metroid larva. This was still thought to be the case, as we can see Meta Ridley flying through space towards Tallon IV. The difference here is Samus fights Meta Ridley, who was able to fly to Tallon IV.

If Meta Knight is given this hypersonic speed, then he shouldn't be an issue for Samus anyway, considering she fought Meta Ridley. Yet, we also know that Meta Knight has a ship of his own, just like Ridley, so Meta Knight's speed might not be consistent, making it an outlier. I think Samus would win because Meta Knight doesn't have the defense or speed to defeat Samus. +1

:4mewtwo:: Considering Mewtwo is vulnerable to dark-type attacks, the dark beam should prove effective against it. However, with other means of TMs and HMs that can be learned, it might be possible for Mewtwo get close to winning. For this reason, I will make the match-up neutral. 0

:4ness:: Ness can learn PSI flash, which could be a rather destructive attack. I do not know the range of this attack and it only has a 40% chance of killing enemies. PSI rockin' looks like it relies on lights and loud sound, possibly associated with a rock concert. It is the most powerful attack used by Ness and just might kill Samus if he decides to use it. With PSI shield, Ness can protect himself with a psychic shield, which will reflect the enemy's PSI attack. Maybe I should be fair and say this works against Samus' beams. However, because of Samus' immense firepower, durability, and speed, Samus may be too much for Ness. +1

:4olimar:: No comment. +1

:4palutena:: It will be best for Samus to fight at a distance, as Palutena can create a light barrier and push her opponent away. She could also create a flash to blind her opponent temporarily. In this instance, it would be best for Samus to use her x-ray or echo visor, as she will see a different light spectrum or simply just sound. While Palutena is formidable, if Pit could stop her, then Samus could, too. +1

:4pacman:: No comment +1

:4peach:: I'm sure there's more that Peach can do. For now, I will suspend my judgment.

:4pikachu:: Pikachu will be immune to the wave beam from Metroid Prime trilogy, but it is known to be vulnerable to other elemental attacks. Quick attack is said to make the Pokemon so quick that it turns invisible. This may be referring to the concept, "faster than the eye can see". I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean, but it seems common in Japanese media. Anyway, it doesn't look like there are that many useful TMs and HMs for Pikachu to use against Samus. +1

:4pit:: Pit's top speed is over 200 mi/h, which is slower than Samus. While Pit can withstand slamming into the ground from 5,000+ feet, this does not translate to Pit's ability to withstand extreme heat, which is clearly made known in Kid Icarus: Uprising. If Pit becomes invisible, Samus can find him. Pit could become temporarily invincible, but it's only brief. Pi can even increase his speed, but this is not as fast as Samus'. While Pit may have many options in firepower and defense, I do not think it will be enough against Samus. +1

:4rob:: No comment. +1

:4robinm:: I'm not familiar with him.

:rosalina:: I have doubts that Rosalina could survive destruction from the Universe, especially considering she's harmed by less impressive attacks in one of the other Mario games. While Rosalina has a force field, Samus' wave, plasma, and even nova beam should be able to penetrate it. The annihilator beam produces sound, so that could be harmful against Rosalina, regardless of her force field. Since Rosalina has very little options to counter-act Samus' firepower, I feel she would lose. +1

:4sheik:: A featless character. +1

:4shulk:: I honestly haven't been paying attention to the debate about Shulk, so I'll withhold my judgment.

:4sonic:: Sonic may be too fast for Samus to attack. If the wave beam is firing x-rays or gamma rays, then Samus' beams will be able to keep up. Samus could also activate the power bomb if necessary, as Sonic hasn't demonstrated the ability to withstand extreme heat that goes beyond the temperature of lava. I personally feel this match-up can work both ways, as Sonic would have no means of harming Samus by ramming into her. Yet, he moves faster than her. 0

:4tlink:: If Link couldn't defeat Samus, then neither could Toon Link. (By the way, since Toon Link represents the younger incarnation, shouldn't he be granted magic armor, not adult Link? After all, if adult Link can have all the items from every incarnation, then this version should be granted the same, or the younger and older incarnations should be separated.) +1

:4wario:: I'm not familiar with Wario. I can't say I expect much from him, however. +1

:4wiifit:: No comment. +1

:4yoshi:: Yoshi doesn't have much going for him. +1

:4zelda:: Another featless character for the most part. She can wield the bow and from TP looks like a blade as well. However, Samus is too fast for her. +1

:4zss:: The armor always trumps the defenseless. +1

Match-up total
Victories: 36
Neutrals: 5
Losses: 0
Undetermined: 6
 

Kirby Dragons

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I will now do matchups for Kirby.
:mario2: Everything Mario does, Kirby does better. One Starman, meet five lollipops. Statue Leaf? Meet Stone Kirby with Stone Uppercut and Animal Friends. A hammer? Does it light on fire and do tremendous damage like Kirby's?
WINNER: KIRBY
:link2:Fire, Ice, Laser, Crash, Mike, etc. would all go through that armor easily, and Ultra Sword could cut it in half.
WINNER: KIRBY
:pikachu2:Kirby easily inhales the attacks and spits them back. No contest.
WINNER: KIRBY
:bowser2:Star Rod gets inhaled. Bowser doesn't even get the Star Rod, making him super easy to defeat.
WINNER: KIRBY
:pt:Pokemon attacks (maybe even the Pokemon) can easily be inhaled and spit back.
WINNER: KIRBY
:samus2:She relies solely on projectiles (with exception of Grapple Beam), so Mirror Kirby takes this quite easily.
WINNER: KIRBY
:marth:Falchion and Darksphere will get inhaled, then Marth is pretty useless.
WINNER: KIRBY
:4lucina:Same as above.
WINNER: KIRBY
:sonic:Spin Dash and Homing Attack make Sonic much smaller and vulnerable to Inhale. Time freezing will do no good if Kirby can do the same using the Super Abilities. In the end, Sonic is outmatched due to Kirby's power.
WINNER: KIRBY
:pit:Weapons get inhaled, making him useless. Sacred Treasures can be reflected as Mirror Kirby.
WINNER: KIRBY
:4darkpit:Same as above.
WINNER: KIRBY
:ness2:Ness doesn't have any real way to put Kirby down. PSI Rockin' is his only attack, which can be used against him as Mirror Kirby.
WINNER: KIRBY
:ike:Ragnell gets inhaled, Ike is useless.
WINNER: KIRBY
:rosalina:Lumas are destroyed with Kirby on the Warp Star, while Crash and Mike annihilate her.
WINNER: KIRBY
:4palutena:It would be close with Palutena's Powers, but Kirby's Copy Abilities outmatch them. Crash/Mike/Paint/Cook take out the Centurions.
WINNER: KIRBY
:4shulk:Shulk could make himself immune to Kirby's attacks by altering his own ether, then give himself what he needs to defeat the puffball.
WINNER: SHULK
:mewtwopm:Mewtwo possesses too much power for the puffball. Kirby's most powerful attacks get used against him, as well as other powerful moves like Psystrike (essentially anything thanks to that supremely high Sp. Atk stat).
WINNER: MEWTWO
:ganondorf:Star Rod (possibly), Master, and Galaxia are the only things Kirby can use against him, yet they are all loaned, so Ganondorf is invincible.
WINNER: GANONDORF
:dedede:Pretty obvious.
WINNER: KIRBY
:metaknight:Same as above.
WINNER: KIRBY
  • Losses: 3
  • Wins: 59
:4samus: vs.
:4mewtwo:: Considering Mewtwo is vulnerable to dark-type attacks, the dark beam should prove effective against it. However, with other means of TMs and HMs that can be learned, it might be possible for Mewtwo get close to winning. For this reason, I will make the match-up neutral. 0
As for Samus vs Mewtwo, I say Mewtwo. The suit counts as an item, so it could just easily be removed using Trick, and then Samus is a blonde acrobat holding a tranquilizer. If Samus boarded her Gunship, Mewtwo would use Teleport to go inside. If Samus still had her suit and used Dark Beam, Mewtwo could just use Miracle Eye and the extra damage would be negated.
 
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Crystanium

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A) Pit didn't use the GST against Palutena AFAIK.
B) That seems to be from Hades and Pit's blows combined rather than just Pit.
C) Dark Gaia shook the mountains (seeing as how the earth was literally torn apart), if that counts.
I never said he did. I said Pit's weapons are either effective against gods, or he has super strength. Whether or not it was a blow from both Hades and Pit, the point is there's collision. Furthermore, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. I'm not sure how shaking mountains is supposed to translate to mountain-level durability.

He can literally stand on lava inside a volcano, which often reaches around that temperature.
Magma can be rather cool. Present a better argument.

Sonic has holy/blessed weaponry. Samus does not.
The master sword has something else. Since light arrows and the master sword are both sacred, and since light arrows (according to you) won't kill Ganondorf, it cannot be sacredness alone. Other blades with the power to drive back demons in other Zelda games all share something in common: force. "The sacred power of the gods [. . .] It is the breath of life itself." Fortunately, the light beam uses light energy, and if this energy is also used for light crystals and beacons, as well as lightbringers, then it already has "life-giving energy". So this should actually harm Ganondorf. Yet, if not, I've already detailed how Samus could defeat him.

Sonic turns into Super Sonic, who is holy, who moves at minimum like Mach 4. Far to fast for Ganondorf to keep up.
Since when was Sonic holy? The point would be Ganondorf would be immortal and nothing

Samus would beat Ganondorf if she had anything capable of negating his evil barrier.
I addressed this in my recent match-up list.

As for Samus vs Mewtwo, I say Mewtwo. The suit counts as an item, so it could just easily be removed using Trick, and then Samus is a blonde acrobat holding a tranquilizer. If Samus boarded her Gunship, Mewtwo would use Teleport to go inside. If Samus still had her suit and used Dark Beam, Mewtwo could just use Miracle Eye and the extra damage would be negated.
The suit is not an item, however. It is integrated with Samus. Using trick against Samus to take her armor would be like trying to take Samus' brain. I'm not sure what you mean by miracle eye.
 
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Munomario777

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Cool. Does he have any new ones besides the electric, fire, bubble, and traditional one?
No, but other notable Skills (customizable bonuses) include:
  • Invincible Start, which grants Sonic about ten seconds of invincibility at the start of a mission.
  • Power Sneakers, a temporary speed-up item.
  • Hercules Muscles, a strength boost.
  • Ring Time, which turns enemies into Rings.
  • Acceleration and Speed Up, which improve those stats.
  • Power Brake, which lets Sonic stop on a dime even at high speeds.
  • Sure Footed, which lets Sonic land on his feet after getting hit.
  • Ten-Second Rings, which makes dropped Rings last longer (so it's easier to pick them up).
  • Time Break, which slows down time to help reaction time, but also affects Sonic.
Well I'm not saying it should freeze anyone who's not mechanical, just that it would work on projectiles still. I admit nothing about it lore or footage wise means it should stop projectiles, but I think it does it too consistently to ignore.
Ah. I'd be fine with that.
Like you said yourself, it (somehow) operates by Megaman unleashing a bright light that activates a safety device which causes them to freeze. Since organics and (most) vehicles don't have a safety device in their eyes, it shouldn't affect them. It could be a graphics thing, but it's not like the Flash from Flash Stopper is so bright it fills the entire screen.
And I'm saying that this would affect anything that is affected by bright flashes of light.
Monado wielders manipulating their body.
There are humans that can drive race cars, but not all humans can drive race cars.
There are no outside influences.
And what about the user?
There's not any actual lore that a Greninja can control water, it was just shown that Greninja have water attacks. Also, what Godwin said about Shulk being completely ether.
See my Ice Mario example.
No one ever said Zanza had to learn the technique either.
And?
I've proved how ether manipulation can control the body. Zanza gave an example of this when he gave himself wings.
And when is it stated that Shulk has this level of ether manipulation?
And has Sonic performed time freezing before?
Sonic can perform the technique known as Chaos Control.
Chaos Control is a technique that allows the user to freeze time.
Therefore, Sonic can freeze time.

In addition, Sonic has been shown to use the time manipulation side of Chaos Control before; he uses it to time travel in Sonic 2006.
By the way, the 7 Emeralds > 2 Emeralds is basically the same as the Monado lll > Monado ll.
What traits does the Monado III have that II does not?
@ ShadowLBlue ShadowLBlue I'm a little confused on the black market vote. What are my options?
The options are to either take into account the 999,999 Ring count or not to take it into account.

@Dryn

:4ganondorf:: Light Arrows only stun him, and even while stunned, only the Master Sword can finish him off. Only smaller enemies are affected by the darkburst, and the sonic boom appears to only be made of light energy, and the Light Arrows only stun Ganondorf.
:rosalina:: Black hole. /battle
:4sonic:: Super Sonic would allow Sonic to get up close and personal, and even without going Super, his spinball attack can tear through battleships without even moving at the speed of sound.

@ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons

:4mario:: Mega Mushrooms only increase the size difference between them, and Kirby is still vulnerable to crushing when using an invincibility item, no?
:4link:: I doubt that Kirby's tiny attacks would deal much damage to Link (especially with his defensive upgrades), whereas Link's would be devastating to Kirby.
:4pikachu:/:pt:: Kirby can only inhale one object at once, major him vulnerable. Plus, he can't use a Copy Ability while inhaling.
:4bowser:: Bowser could crush Kirby in an instant.
:4samus:: Power Bomb. /battle
:4sonic:: Sonic can outrun/teleport out of the inhale. The spinball attacks don't reduce his size too much, and Kirby wouldn't even have a chance to inhale Sonic (he couldn't react to a hedgehog running at Mach 1, and even if he did inhale in time, Sonic could react to it and attack from behind).
:rosalina:: Black hole. /battle
Seriously though, Warp Star Kirby can only be in one place at once, which doesn't apply to an army of Lumas. Crash and Mike have limited uses, and Rosalina's statue form does not (not to mention those attacks' limited range).
I never said he did. I said Pit's weapons are either effective against gods, or he has super strength. Whether or not it was a blow from both Hades and Pit, the point is there's collision. Furthermore, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. I'm not sure how shaking mountains is supposed to translate to mountain-level durability.
This little tangent stemmed from whether or not Sonic's attacks were on par with those that Pit was using against Palutena, so I'm not sure why you brought this up.
Magma can be rather cool. Present a better argument.
Okay, then. First off, let's go to Crisis City, from Sonic Generations:

Notice the bright orange color of the lava. Also note that Super Sonic can stand on this. According to this source, "[Lava] starts out bright orange (1000-1150 C)." Yup, that lava is bright orange, meaning that it nears 1200 C.
The master sword has something else. Since light arrows and the master sword are both sacred, and since light arrows (according to you) won't kill Ganondorf, it cannot be sacredness alone. Other blades with the power to drive back demons in other Zelda games all share something in common: force. ""The sacred power of the gods [. . .] It is the breath of life itself." Fortunately, the light beam uses light energy, and if this energy is also used for light crystals and beacons, as well as lightbringers, then it already has "life-giving energy". So this should actually harm Ganondorf. Yet, if not, I've already detailed how Samus could defeat him.
Note the part that refers to "sacred power of the gods". It appears that both the power of the gods and life giving energy are required to harm Ganondorf.
Since when was Sonic holy? The point would be Ganondorf would be immortal and nothing
The Master Emerald was created by the gods to prevent the misuse of the Chaos Emeralds. I believe that Shadow meant Hyper Sonic, since that uses the Super Emeralds (Chaos Emeralds + Master Emerald).
 

Crystanium

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:4ganondorf:: Light Arrows only stun him, and even while stunned, only the Master Sword can finish him off. Only smaller enemies are affected by the darkburst, and the sonic boom appears to only be made of light energy, and the Light Arrows only stun Ganondorf.
Smaller enemies? Hahaha! That's not even true, Munomario777. You're quick to defend Ganondorf when it means defeating other characters on the roster, but not when it comes to defending your own preferred character. The darkburst can suck up space pirates without an issue, and especially ingsmashers when they're weakened. Considering Ganondorf will be weakened, it'll prove useful. Also, the sonic boom uses matter and anti-matter and distorts time and space. I think you were confusing that with the sunburst.
:rosalina:: Black hole. /battle
The gravity suit makes Samus immune to gravitational fields. Feel free to prove the black holes fired by Rosalina behave as they actually would.
:4sonic:: Super Sonic would allow Sonic to get up close and personal, and even without going Super, his spinball attack can tear through battleships without even moving at the speed of sound.
We've been through this before, Munomario777. Sonic needs to rely on other means to hurt Samus. Simply ramming into her when she can withstand forces greater than what Sonic can generate (using Mach 5 and Sonic's mass) isn't going to work.

Note the part that refers to "sacred power of the gods". It appears that both the power of the gods and life giving energy are required to harm Ganondorf.
The breath of life would be considered sacred by many. It's why murder is considered wrong to most religious people. There are also the sacred cows of India. It's actually redundant to say "sacred power of the gods" because that power by definition would be sacred. Remember, something can be sacred, even if it's an evil god or gods, since sacredness has to do with a connection with a god or gods. It is likely that life-giving energy came from a god or gods in the Metroidverse.

"And then the strangest thing began to restore vigour to my spirit's light, which was so close to going out." - MOM manual, p. 6

This could be compared to the concept of a soul or spirit, especially considering the fact that there are ethereal entities like Chozo ghosts, Phantoon, and the Chozo god of war. That should come to no surprise, considering there are Chozo shamans and shamans believe in spirits and a spirit world, and believe in astral projection. Luminoths have a spiritual fixation around the Light of Aether, so the fact that it could be considered sacred and its possession of life-giving energy may be enough.
 

Munomario777

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Smaller enemies? Hahaha! That's not even true, Munomario777. You're quick to defend Ganondorf when it means defeating other characters on the roster, but not when it comes to defending your own preferred character. The darkburst can suck up space pirates without an issue, and especially ingsmashers when they're weakened. Considering Ganondorf will be weakened, it'll prove useful. Also, the sonic boom uses matter and anti-matter and distorts time and space. I think you were confusing that with the sunburst.
Sorry, I meant only smaller enemies are sucked in by the darkburst. My bad. Ganondorf isn't weakened in the sense that he's vulnerable to other attacks; it just prevents him from blocking Link's strikes with the Master Sword. I found that the sonic boom creates a wall of light and dark energy or something to that effect.
The gravity suit makes Samus immune to gravitational fields. Feel free to prove the black holes fired by Rosalina behave as they actually would.
Ah, right. Forgot about that. :facepalm:
We've been through this before, Munomario777. Sonic needs to rely on other means to hurt Samus. Simply ramming into her when she can withstand forces greater than what Sonic can generate (using Mach 5 and Sonic's mass) isn't going to work.
That's why Sonic would curl up into a ball with razor-sharp spines and tear through Samus like a flying battleship.
The breath of life would be considered sacred by many. It's why murder is considered wrong to most religious people. There are also the sacred cows of India. It's actually redundant to say "sacred power of the gods" because that power by definition would be sacred. Remember, something can be sacred, even if it's an evil god or gods, since sacredness has to do with a connection with a god or gods. It is likely that life-giving energy came from a god or gods in the Metroidverse.

"And then the strangest thing began to restore vigour to my spirit's light, which was so close to going out." - MOM manual, p. 6

This could be compared to the concept of a soul or spirit, especially considering the fact that there are ethereal entities like Chozo ghosts, Phantoon, and the Chozo god of war. That should come to no surprise, considering there are Chozo shamans and shamans believe in spirits and a spirit world, and believe in astral projection. Luminoths have a spiritual fixation around the Light of Aether, so the fact that it could be considered sacred and its possession of life-giving energy may be enough.
What exactly is the excerpt from the manual referring to? If it's not one of Samus's weapons, then I don't see why you're bringing it up.
 

Reckless Godwin 2.0

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Well, of course. They are still mortal. One even gets his head bashed in in one rather lazy strike from a giant guy with rather glorious beard and a very big sword stuck in the chest after their glorious failure at execution.
I’m referring to their lack of physical strength being the reason for the botched execution as it seems like the sword was able to inflict a lasting wound that is still left unhealed at the end of the game.

Okay then, I'll provide another example. In Super Mario Galaxy, Ice Mario has Mario turn into a living ice sculpture and manipulate ice to freeze water, yet you don't see him shape shifting.

PSI Flash only has a 40% chance of OHKOing, and as I've stated above, the Super Sonic transformation takes only a split second.

Let's see.
  • Perfect Chaos turned an entire city into flooded ruins.
  • Iblis (half of Solaris) turned an entire city into lava-flooded ruins.
  • Solaris was about to rip apart time and space itself before Sonic and co. stopped him.
  • Time Eater seriously messed with the time-space continuum, bringing different locations and time periods together with plans to eventually destroy it as a whole.
  • Dark Gaia ripped the earth apart, continent by continent.
  • Ultimate Emerl, while not a god of destruction, did possess all seven Chaos Emeralds, the data of every character in the game, and a giant space laser cannon, and Sonic beat him without going Super in 30 seconds flat.
Turning from flesh and blood into a “living ice sculpture” is pretty close to shape shifting.

40% chance of KO, 15% to become numb (paralyze), 10% to feel strange (confusion), 35% to cause uncontrollable crying (blindness). That is effectively a 55% (KO + numbness) chance to win the battle right there and requires Sonic to take this fight seriously right off the bat (what makes you think he is going to take a young boy seriously?). Even the feeling strange status could give him another chance to use PK Flash.
Uses of PK Flash/chance of KO or paralysis:
1=55%
2=79.8%
3=90.9%
4=95.9%

  • Pales in comparison to Ashunera’s floods wiping out all continents except Tellius (by accident even)(Fire Emblem Tellius).
  • So Perfect Chaos lava version. Both of them are closer to elemental kaiju than gods with their vulnerabilities.
  • End game Solaris sounds legit but original Solaris the flame is LOL worthy.
  • Time Eater is making my head spin.
  • Dark Gaia is an immortal planet cracking Kaiju but doesn’t seem to be particularly smart. Quite impressive though.
  • Ultimate Emerl is still susceptible to damage and he sounds like Mega Man but with Chaos emeralds.
Well, I would agree with that, but Shulk can still see the future during his counter (An ability which relies on reading the flow of ether in the world around him, if I'm not mistaken) despite the fact that his enemies (supposedly) aren't made up of ether, and neither is the world around him. This leads us to a few possible conclusions:

1. The Monados powers work in full whether or not ether is present.
2. All of the characters in smash are made up of ether and so is everything else that Shulk can counter.

Either way, Shulk's powers still apply in full during the fight. At the very least, if he can't harm his enemy directly, he still has the power of creation and can foresee the future



Yeah, Alvis = Monado, Shulk controls the Monado, Shulk still has the power of creation.
Smash Bros isn’t canon.
At the very minimum Shulk’s visions will be able to tell him how he gets hurt even when there is no ether in the immediate environment.

Welcome to the thread, please stick around for a while.

Oh, well if we don't have this fight take place in the "Smash Universe" I guess we could call it, then the monado's literally just gonna be a red sword that doesn't even light up (unless were in the Xenoblade universe, of course), and Shulk's just gonna be a lifeless corpse cause he requires ether to live like a plant requires sunlight. Basically, without ether, there's gonna be no fight.
Even R.O.B. would place higher and that should never happen (R.O.B.'s entire purpose is to ensure everybody has at least one opponent they can win against)!

Yes, but Shulk lacks any projectiles (although some of his attacks do travel several meters) and outside of dodging, only has Monado Shield to block attacks (which requires 4 hits to recharge).
Also just because he can see it coming doesn't mean he can dodge it (i.e. Sonic running into him a Mach Speed)
3 hits from 1/2, 4 from ¼, 5 from empty.
Armor still exists.
:4samus: vs.
:4bowser:: Samus has dealt with enemies capable of producing flames, possessing hard shells, and dwelling in lava and magma. The ice beam is able to prevent Ridley's fireballs in MZM and is capable of freezing the chalae on space pirates so that they're unable to shoot at Samus. The combination of the diffusion beam or diffusion missile should greatly assist Samus in battle so that Bowser is immobilized. +1

:4bowserjr:: I haven't seen any impressive feats from Bowser Jr. I own both Super Mario Sunshine and the New Super Mario Bros. for the Wii, so unless there's another game with Bowser Jr. in it (aside from Mario Kart: Double Dash), I don't see Bowser Jr. winning if his dad couldn't. +1

:4falcon:: While Captain Falcon's Blue Falcon is fast and speeds up faster than Samus' speed booster, all Samus needs is that one second in order to travel supersonic speeds. The Blue Falcon is vulnerable to extreme heat, as demonstrated in F-Zero GX and does not perform well on icy surfaces, which Samus can take advantage of. Samus will also be able to react in time, should Captain Falcon attempt smashing into her. +1

:4charizard:: Charizard's flame is able to melt boulders, meaning that Charizard's flame could at least produce 700°C. He is also capable of flying very high, so it's not like Samus could escape Charizard if she wanted to. However, Samus has dealt with Ridley, who—as far as I'm aware—has better feats. Samus has the ice beam, which is effective against creatures capable of producing flames of their own, and considering Charizard's size, it would be possible for Samus to completely freeze it with either the diffusion beam or diffusion missile. +1

:4darkpit:: While Dark Pit is capable of flight and possesses weapons that can fire over 100 meters, Samus is much faster and equally possesses the abilities Dark Pit has. If the screw attack can instantly kill dragotixs, FG-1,000s, gigafraugs, kyratians, and space pirates, then it shouldn't be a problem for Samus to do the same against Dark Pit. +1

:4dedede:: King Dedede is neither more durable, nor faster than Samus, and if spark attacks can harm King Dedede, then he'll stand no chance against Samus' plasma beam. +1

:4diddy:: Diddy Kong's firepower and flight is no problem for Samus. +1

:4dk:: With his inability to react and respond to Samus' firepower, speed, and flight, DK doesn't stand a chance. He'll need to rely on close-combat to have a possible chance at winning. +1

:4drmario:: No comment. +1

:4duckhunt:: No comment. +1

:4falco:: Since Falco will be flying in his ship, it'll be more difficult for Samus to attack if he flies too high. She'll have to wait for Falco to come and attack her, just as she had done so against Meta Ridley in Metroid Prime. I'm not aware of what the arwing can attack with, except lasers and a bomb of some sort. I'm not sure what the range is for the bomb. 0

:4fox:: See Falco's critique. 0

:4ganondorf:: Ganondorf is very powerful with magic and his ability to take punishment comes from the fact that he possesses the Triforce of Power. However, like a good majority of demons, Ganondorf is vulnerable to light attacks. The light beam shares some qualities of the light arrows in that it is a weapon used to combat dark creatures of hatred from a dark world known as Aether. If the light crystals and beacons, as well as the lightbringer possesses life-giving energy, then it might be possible that the light beam also possesses this quality. Samus could defeat Ganondorf by charging up the light beam, stunning Ganondorf (if not outright killing him) and then fire the darkburst to send him in another dimension or the sonic boom to rip him apart. +1

:4gaw:: No comment. +1

:4greninja:: Considering water-types are vulnerable to electric-types, Samus could fire the wavebuster to electrocute Greninja. +1

:4myfriends:: I don't know enough about Ike.

:4jigglypuff:: Jigglypuff should be no threat to Samus. +1

:4kirby:: Kirby shares similar abilities to Samus, but he's not as durable or as fast as Samus, even with his wheelie ability. If Kirby is granted his warp star, then Samus is granted her gunship, still putting her above Kirby. +1

:4littlemac:: Little Mac supposedly knocked out Donkey Kong, but considering that game was out before Donkey Kong Country Returns, that feat will be ignored. Little Mac has no way to keep up with Samus. +1

:4link:: While Link possesses a vast quantity of gear and other useful items, he has no way to keep up with Samus' speed and firepower. His magic armor can protect him, but only to a certain degree. If Link decides to use the magic cape, Samus will be able to see him with her x-ray, thermal, dark, or echo visor. With her reaction time, Link won't be able to hit Samus. +1

:4lucario:: There might be more to Lucario than I know, so I won't do anything with this yet.

:4lucas:: PSI love and PSI flash might be a devastating attack. I'm not sure how powerful it is in the real world, nor do I know the range of the attack, but I think this is an attack Samus should be careful with. With his shield some attacks can be halved. I don't know if this applies to elemental attacks as well. Otherwise, it could be of use. Counter will reflect physical attacks. If I understand this correctly, it's referring to attacks that come in direct contact. However, there is PSI shield and PSI counter. The former is similar to shield, and the latter only protects Lucas from PSI attacks, none of which Samus has.

Lucas can constantly increase his attack power using offense up and increase his defense with defense up. I'm not sure how defense up works. I don't know if this would actually apply to the shield and counter attacks, or if it's making Lucas temporarily dense. Either way, I don't know how Lucas will be able to keep up with Samus, regardless. With the use of the Franklin badge, Lucas will be immune to Samus' plasma beam from the 2D games and the wave beam from Metroid Prime, but he's still vulnerable to other attacks. +1

:4lucina:: I don't know enough about this character.

:4luigi:: In Super Mario 64 DS, Luigi is able to charge up for about 1.5 seconds before running on water. This means that Luigi is capable of running at least 30 m/s (67.11 mi/h). With the Poltergust 3,000, Luigi can shoot flames, water, and even freeze things, although he can only use one at a time. From what I recall, he needs to collect medals to do this, so I don't know if the Poltergust 3,000 will be as helpful. +1

:4mario:: With the super suit, Mario will be able to counter most of Samus' beam weapons. However, the suit likely protects only the parts covered, similarly to a bullet proof vest and not the parts exposed. While the super suit will protect Mario from elemental attacks, we don't know if this applies to dark or light attacks, as it isn't demonstrated to my knowledge. The wave beam from the 2D games also functions differently from the wave beam in the Metroid Prime trilogy. Samus also has missiles, super missiles, and power bombs. Should beam weapons fail, Samus has other means. Perhaps the starman would assist Mario with brief invincibility, but the wave beam and nova beam can pierce defenses, so it's not certain if the starman would protect Mario. +1

:4marth:: I don't know enough about Marth to make a critique.

:4megaman:: Mega Man has the ability to stop time, and while he is unable to harm his opponents with the exception of one boss, he can use the time stopper to get behind Samus and attack with any other attack. In Metroid: Other M, Samus has a 75% damage reduction. Adding the Phazon suit's 50% damage reduction gives a total of 125%. Then there is the unnamed armor Samus acquires at the end of Metroid Fusion, but this just may be Samus' original defense, not a new type of defense. So at 125%, if Samus is hit by atomic fire, she should be immune. Think of it this way. At 75% damage reduction, she should be receiving 9,000 centigrade. Since 125% of 12,000 centigrade is 15,000, and since 15,000 is greater than 12,000, it completely ignores the damage.

Assume this isn't the case, however. How far is Mega Man going to be from Samus? We know he's vulnerable to extreme heat, and even if we assume his body is made up of an equivalent to titanium carbide, a single power bomb is going to be devastating, especially if the temperature is 6,000 K (5,726.85 centigrade). I feel this battle could work either way, honestly, so I am going to say the match-up is fairly neutral. 0

:4metaknight:: I don't think Meta Knight has a chance against Samus. While one might say that Meta Knight flies through space, putting him at hypersonic speeds, the same has been thought of for Ridley in the early Metroid games. The Super Smash Bros. Melee trophy says Ridley flies through space. This is based on Super Metroid where Ridley steals the Metroid larva. This was still thought to be the case, as we can see Meta Ridley flying through space towards Tallon IV. The difference here is Samus fights Meta Ridley, who was able to fly to Tallon IV.

If Meta Knight is given this hypersonic speed, then he shouldn't be an issue for Samus anyway, considering she fought Meta Ridley. Yet, we also know that Meta Knight has a ship of his own, just like Ridley, so Meta Knight's speed might not be consistent, making it an outlier. I think Samus would win because Meta Knight doesn't have the defense or speed to defeat Samus. +1

:4mewtwo:: Considering Mewtwo is vulnerable to dark-type attacks, the dark beam should prove effective against it. However, with other means of TMs and HMs that can be learned, it might be possible for Mewtwo get close to winning. For this reason, I will make the match-up neutral. 0

:4ness:: Ness can learn PSI flash, which could be a rather destructive attack. I do not know the range of this attack and it only has a 40% chance of killing enemies. PSI rockin' looks like it relies on lights and loud sound, possibly associated with a rock concert. It is the most powerful attack used by Ness and just might kill Samus if he decides to use it. With PSI shield, Ness can protect himself with a psychic shield, which will reflect the enemy's PSI attack. Maybe I should be fair and say this works against Samus' beams. However, because of Samus' immense firepower, durability, and speed, Samus may be too much for Ness. +1

:4olimar:: No comment. +1

:4palutena:: It will be best for Samus to fight at a distance, as Palutena can create a light barrier and push her opponent away. She could also create a flash to blind her opponent temporarily. In this instance, it would be best for Samus to use her x-ray or echo visor, as she will see a different light spectrum or simply just sound. While Palutena is formidable, if Pit could stop her, then Samus could, too. +1

:4pacman:: No comment +1

:4peach:: I'm sure there's more that Peach can do. For now, I will suspend my judgment.

:4pikachu:: Pikachu will be immune to the wave beam from Metroid Prime trilogy, but it is known to be vulnerable to other elemental attacks. Quick attack is said to make the Pokemon so quick that it turns invisible. This may be referring to the concept, "faster than the eye can see". I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean, but it seems common in Japanese media. Anyway, it doesn't look like there are that many useful TMs and HMs for Pikachu to use against Samus. +1

:4pit:: Pit's top speed is over 200 mi/h, which is slower than Samus. While Pit can withstand slamming into the ground from 5,000+ feet, this does not translate to Pit's ability to withstand extreme heat, which is clearly made known in Kid Icarus: Uprising. If Pit becomes invisible, Samus can find him. Pit could become temporarily invincible, but it's only brief. Pi can even increase his speed, but this is not as fast as Samus'. While Pit may have many options in firepower and defense, I do not think it will be enough against Samus. +1

:4rob:: No comment. +1

:4robinm:: I'm not familiar with him.

:rosalina:: I have doubts that Rosalina could survive destruction from the Universe, especially considering she's harmed by less impressive attacks in one of the other Mario games. While Rosalina has a force field, Samus' wave, plasma, and even nova beam should be able to penetrate it. The annihilator beam produces sound, so that could be harmful against Rosalina, regardless of her force field. Since Rosalina has very little options to counter-act Samus' firepower, I feel she would lose. +1

:4sheik:: A featless character. +1

:4shulk:: I honestly haven't been paying attention to the debate about Shulk, so I'll withhold my judgment.

:4sonic:: Sonic may be too fast for Samus to attack. If the wave beam is firing x-rays or gamma rays, then Samus' beams will be able to keep up. Samus could also activate the power bomb if necessary, as Sonic hasn't demonstrated the ability to withstand extreme heat that goes beyond the temperature of lava. I personally feel this match-up can work both ways, as Sonic would have no means of harming Samus by ramming into her. Yet, he moves faster than her. 0

:4tlink:: If Link couldn't defeat Samus, then neither could Toon Link. (By the way, since Toon Link represents the younger incarnation, shouldn't he be granted magic armor, not adult Link? After all, if adult Link can have all the items from every incarnation, then this version should be granted the same, or the younger and older incarnations should be separated.) +1

:4wario:: I'm not familiar with Wario. I can't say I expect much from him, however. +1

:4wiifit:: No comment. +1

:4yoshi:: Yoshi doesn't have much going for him. +1

:4zelda:: Another featless character for the most part. She can wield the bow and from TP looks like a blade as well. However, Samus is too fast for her. +1

:4zss:: The armor always trumps the defenseless. +1

Match-up total
Victories: 36
Neutrals: 5
Losses: 0
Undetermined: 6
I don't see the FE characters beating Samus due to her absurd strength, durability and weaponry.

I will now do matchups for Kirby.
:mario2: Everything Mario does, Kirby does better. One Starman, meet five lollipops. Statue Leaf? Meet Stone Kirby with Stone Uppercut and Animal Friends. A hammer? Does it light on fire and do tremendous damage like Kirby's?
WINNER: KIRBY
:link2:Fire, Ice, Laser, Crash, Mike, etc. would all go through that armor easily, and Ultra Sword could cut it in half.
WINNER: KIRBY
:pikachu2:Kirby easily inhales the attacks and spits them back. No contest.
WINNER: KIRBY
:bowser2:Star Rod gets inhaled. Bowser doesn't even get the Star Rod, making him super easy to defeat.
WINNER: KIRBY
:pt:Pokemon attacks (maybe even the Pokemon) can easily be inhaled and spit back.
WINNER: KIRBY
:samus2:She relies solely on projectiles (with exception of Grapple Beam), so Mirror Kirby takes this quite easily.
WINNER: KIRBY
:marth:Falchion and Darksphere will get inhaled, then Marth is pretty useless.
WINNER: KIRBY
:4lucina:Same as above.
WINNER: KIRBY
:sonic:Spin Dash and Homing Attack make Sonic much smaller and vulnerable to Inhale. Time freezing will do no good if Kirby can do the same using the Super Abilities. In the end, Sonic is outmatched due to Kirby's power.
WINNER: KIRBY
:pit:Weapons get inhaled, making him useless. Sacred Treasures can be reflected as Mirror Kirby.
WINNER: KIRBY
:4darkpit:Same as above.
WINNER: KIRBY
:ness2:Ness doesn't have any real way to put Kirby down. PSI Rockin' is his only attack, which can be used against him as Mirror Kirby.
WINNER: KIRBY
:ike:Ragnell gets inhaled, Ike is useless.
WINNER: KIRBY
:rosalina:Lumas are destroyed with Kirby on the Warp Star, while Crash and Mike annihilate her.
WINNER: KIRBY
:4palutena:It would be close with Palutena's Powers, but Kirby's Copy Abilities outmatch them. Crash/Mike/Paint/Cook take out the Centurions.
WINNER: KIRBY
:4shulk:Shulk could make himself immune to Kirby's attacks by altering his own ether, then give himself what he needs to defeat the puffball.
WINNER: SHULK
:mewtwopm:Mewtwo possesses too much power for the puffball. Kirby's most powerful attacks get used against him, as well as other powerful moves like Psystrike (essentially anything thanks to that supremely high Sp. Atk stat).
WINNER: MEWTWO
:ganondorf:Star Rod (possibly), Master, and Galaxia are the only things Kirby can use against him, yet they are all loaned, so Ganondorf is invincible.
WINNER: GANONDORF
:dedede:Pretty obvious.
WINNER: KIRBY
:metaknight:Same as above.
WINNER: KIRBY
  • Losses: 3
  • Wins: 59
Can Kirby’s suction really overpower Ike and Co‘s grip on their weapons like that? The Fire Emblem characters will typically have backup weapons (ex. main weapon, backup main weapon, ranged weapon of same type, weapon of different type) and I don't think they will fall for the same trick more than once.

Sonic can perform the technique known as Chaos Control.
Chaos Control is a technique that allows the user to freeze time.
Therefore, Sonic can freeze time.

In addition, Sonic has been shown to use the time manipulation side of Chaos Control before; he uses it to time travel in Sonic 2006.

What traits does the Monado III have that II does not?

@Dryn

:4ganondorf:: Light Arrows only stun him, and even while stunned, only the Master Sword can finish him off. Only smaller enemies are affected by the darkburst, and the sonic boom appears to only be made of light energy, and the Light Arrows only stun Ganondorf.
:rosalina:: Black hole. /battle

@ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons

:rosalina:: Black hole. /battle
Seriously though, Warp Star Kirby can only be in one place at once, which doesn't apply to an army of Lumas. Crash and Mike have limited uses, and Rosalina's statue form does not (not to mention those attacks' limited range).

Note the part that refers to "sacred power of the gods". It appears that both the power of the gods and life giving energy are required to harm Ganondorf.

The Master Emerald was created by the gods to prevent the misuse of the Chaos Emeralds. I believe that Shadow meant Hyper Sonic, since that uses the Super Emeralds (Chaos Emeralds + Master Emerald).
Doesn’t sonic need another person with an emerald for that to happen?

It belongs to Shulk rather than Zanza.

If Light Arrows do stun him then that means they do harm him, and if they harm him a more potent version of them might be able to knock him unconscious.

Luma transformation is pretty random, as evidenced by Mario having to get through a death course to get a power star Ex. http://www.mariowiki.com/Sweet_Sweet_Galaxy. I wouldn’t rely on using randomly spawning black holes to take out my opponent.

Master emerald might belong to Knuckles.



Would Shulk’s breathing start to disperse ether into the air?

Shulk won’t be able to fight at all if there is no ether in the environment, https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...ist=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=1281 at 21:21-21:50. Having Shulk suffer from fatigue or nausea doesn’t sound very neutral to me.

How come people get hung up on Zanza but not Meyneth?

I wonder if Shulk can replicate the Mechon’s near immunity to physical attacks (seriously, how did those blasted robots pull that off)?
 

Crystanium

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Sorry, I meant only smaller enemies are sucked in by the darkburst. My bad. Ganondorf isn't weakened in the sense that he's vulnerable to other attacks; it just prevents him from blocking Link's strikes with the Master Sword. I found that the sonic boom creates a wall of light and dark energy or something to that effect.
Yes, and that includes space pirates. Ganondorf is actually weakened in that he is vulnerable to other attacks. The biggoron sword and megaton hammer can be used against him after he is hit by a light arrow in OoT. Since Ganondorf has been defeated by being sent to another dimension, this could be performed against Ganondorf by the darkburst, thus resulting in battlefield removal.

That's why Sonic would curl up into a ball with razor-sharp spines and tear through Samus like a flying battleship.
We've been through this, too. The example I found from Sonic was less than 12 gigapascals, which I demonstrated tens of pages ago.

What exactly is the excerpt from the manual referring to? If it's not one of Samus's weapons, then I don't see why you're bringing it up.
I brought up the excerpt to demonstrate that Samus likely possesses a soul/spirit and then further supported this by the fact that there are Chozo shamans (from the Chozo shaman bust in Metroid Prime), Chozo ghosts, the Chozo god of war, and Phantoon. Here's more about Phantoon's from the art gallery from MOM.

"Ghost-like monster that was hidden on the spaceship the Ancient Chozo used to come to Zebes. It exists as both a multidimensional corporeal body and an astral body.

"An enormous 'hand' suddenly appears from a dimensional portal! (Threatening scene)

"Head equipped with a special organ for moving to higher dimensions.

"Since it lives in multiple dimensions, you can't see the lower half of its body."

Since there is a spiritual fixation around the Light of Aether (praying for salvation from the Ing and all that jazz), and considering the Luminoth bless Samus with the Light of Aether, and since the Light of Aether offers life-giving energy (as when blessed, Samus' energy is restored), it's likely the light beam has the quality of not only life-giving energy, but sacredness as well. It would then follow that it's likely able to harm Ganondorf.
 

Kirby Dragons

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There are humans that can drive race cars, but not all humans can drive race cars.
The only humans without the ability to drive racecars lack the ability to drive. Shulk has these abilities, though, due to his ether manipulation.
And what about the user?
Zanza has no natural powers, that I know of.
See my Ice Mario example.
Ice Mario can't control ice.
If Zanza didn't have to learn it, neither does Shulk.
And when is it stated that Shulk has this level of ether manipulation?
Giving yourself wings isn't on another level, plus the Monado lll is more powerful than Zanza's Monado.
Sonic can perform the technique known as Chaos Control.
Chaos Control is a technique that allows the user to freeze time.
Therefore, Sonic can freeze time.
Shulk can perform the technique known as ether manipulation.
Ether manipulation is a technique that allows the user to manipulate the body.
Therefore, Shulk can manipulate the body.
What traits does the Monado III have that II does not?
More power.
The options are to either take into account the 999,999 Ring count or not to take it into account.
Then I choose not.
@ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons

:4mario:: Mega Mushrooms only increase the size difference between them, and Kirby is still vulnerable to crushing when using an invincibility item, no?
Anyone that touches Kirby while he's invincible gets hurt, even if they're using a crush attack.
:4link:: I doubt that Kirby's tiny attacks would deal much damage to Link (especially with his defensive upgrades), whereas Link's would be devastating to Kirby.
Kirby could dodge them on the Warp Star, or go Stone Kirby and tank the damage.
:4pikachu:/:pt:: Kirby can only inhale one object at once, major him vulnerable. Plus, he can't use a Copy Ability while inhaling.
Actually, he can inhale multiple things at once.
:4bowser:: Bowser could crush Kirby in an instant.
Needle or Invincibility Candy.
:4samus:: Power Bomb. /battle
What stops it from getting reflected?
:4sonic:: Sonic can outrun/teleport out of the inhale. The spinball attacks don't reduce his size too much, and Kirby wouldn't even have a chance to inhale Sonic (he couldn't react to a hedgehog running at Mach 1, and even if he did inhale in time, Sonic could react to it and attack from behind).
Invincibility Candy would hurt Sonic using the Homing Attack/Spin Dash, giving Kirby time to inhale while Sonic is recovering.
:rosalina:: Black hole. /battle
Seriously though, Warp Star Kirby can only be in one place at once, which doesn't apply to an army of Lumas. Crash and Mike have limited uses, and Rosalina's statue form does not (not to mention those attacks' limited range).
Crash, Paint, Mike, and Cook have six total uses. When Kirby gets close to Rosalina on the Warp Star, the Lumas won't become black holes due to the potential mistake of sucking Rosalina. In the end, a falling Stone Kirby will destroy Stone Rosalina, seeing as Kirby destroyed the Dedede Stone with this method (much larger than Rosalina). If necessary, a Helper and an Animal Friend can hold off the Lumas.
@ Reckless Godwin 2.0 Reckless Godwin 2.0 Usually, the FE characters' backup weapons are weaker. If Kirby can't inhale the initial weapons, then a Miracle Fruit would allow him to do that.
@Dryn Miracle Eye is a move (or an ability, one of the two) that negates the reaction between psychic-types and dark-types.
 
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Diddy Kong

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About Mewtwo vs Samus and the Dark Beam, Mewtwo should be focussing on going Mewtwo X, as the extra Fighting Type he receives with it removes his weakness to Dark based attacks. This should also be noticed when facing Ganondorf.

@Dryn No I never compared the Peanut Popguns to the beams the Space Pirates shoot. Diddy would probably have to use the Orange Grenades to do similar damage to Zero Suit Samus. But yes, considering she might actually have 20 energy tanks... And has the range from MOM's paralyser, she'll simply outlast Diddy most likely.

However, since Diddy's healing and invinsible capicities also should be up to his maximum how many bananas is he allowed to have..? In the DKC games, 100 bananas = 1 life, and you can maximally have 99 lives. Is Diddy allowed to have 9900 bananas?

10 bananas in King of Swing heal 1/3rd of his health (3 hearts). And in DK64 his health is measured by 3 Water Melons, who each hold 4 parts thus giving him 12 hits before he dies, unless it's a stronger attack I think which does double the damage. 20 bananas give him invincibilty for a brief moment, but it acts fast enough to neutralise the blasts from the paralyser when shot. Which could help him a great deal when flying as to help himself from crashing the Rocket Barrel. Which I imagine Zero Suit Samus would primary focus her attention on, as it would do the most damage.. I think.

Going Bananas also makes Diddy move faster, and jump higher when it lasts btw. And when enemies touch Diddy when he uses it, they die, but bosses won't get damaged by it. Let's just assume Diddy would use this to make his physical attacks more effective (DK also posseses this abiltity btw, as well as healing and having acces to the Banana Hoard maybe?).

Am still thinking it's gonna be close myself. But I see where you'd think Zero Suit Samusmhas the advantage. I doubt that with 20 energy tanks the Peanut Popguns are going to effectively damage Samus, but when they do hit and potentially let Diddy get close when she's stunned he could maybe damage her better. Is she going to like being jumped on? :laugh: I mean on her head of course... As it IS after all one of the more obvious ways he'd attack her. Cartwheels to.

Besides the paralyser, what else does ZSS have? Am mostly interessted in this, cause even though it'd be a long and hard fight, I think that just with the paralyser alone, Diddy could stand a good chance. Am kind of convinced though that Donkey Kong could take her.... But I'll post more of that when Diddy is 100% decided (as am actually having fun discussing him as people often underrate him greatly).
 

Munomario777

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Turning from flesh and blood into a “living ice sculpture” is pretty close to shape shifting.
That's a change in material, not shape.
40% chance of KO, 15% to become numb (paralyze), 10% to feel strange (confusion), 35% to cause uncontrollable crying (blindness). That is effectively a 55% (KO + numbness) chance to win the battle right there and requires Sonic to take this fight seriously right off the bat (what makes you think he is going to take a young boy seriously?). Even the feeling strange status could give him another chance to use PK Flash.
Uses of PK Flash/chance of KO or paralysis:
1=55%
2=79.8%
3=90.9%
4=95.9%
One of the Skills I listed earlier gives Sonic a bit of invincibility at the start of any stage, which should keep PK Flash from doing anything to him.
  • Pales in comparison to Ashunera’s floods wiping out all continents except Tellius (by accident even)(Fire Emblem Tellius).
  • So Perfect Chaos lava version. Both of them are closer to elemental kaiju than gods with their vulnerabilities.
  • End game Solaris sounds legit but original Solaris the flame is LOL worthy.
  • Time Eater is making my head spin.
  • Dark Gaia is an immortal planet cracking Kaiju but doesn’t seem to be particularly smart. Quite impressive though.
  • Ultimate Emerl is still susceptible to damage and he sounds like Mega Man but with Chaos emeralds.
  • Worth noting is that Sonic defeated Perfect Chaos without entering his super form.
  • They're called gods of destruction IIRC, but then again, Palutena shows us that that doesn't mean much. Also, like Perfect Chaos, Sonic took Iblis on in his normal form.
  • I'm referring to the former.
  • Kind of like the clock gears on his body, haha.
  • He did have an impenetrable barrier until Sonic got rid of it.
  • True, but the Chaos Emeralds are rather powerful.
Doesn’t sonic need another person with an emerald for that to happen?
No, time freezing can be performed with only one user.
It belongs to Shulk rather than Zanza.
I see.
If Light Arrows do stun him then that means they do harm him, and if they harm him a more potent version of them might be able to knock him unconscious.
Light Arrows cannot defeat Ganondorf, no matter how many you shoot at him. They're also the most potent weapon in the game; they OHKO most regular enemies.
Luma transformation is pretty random, as evidenced by Mario having to get through a death course to get a power star Ex. http://www.mariowiki.com/Sweet_Sweet_Galaxy. I wouldn’t rely on using randomly spawning black holes to take out my opponent.
They're not random, though. They're the same every time you play the game, and Lumas can even choose what to turn into, as demonstrated by the Lumas that transform into
Master emerald might belong to Knuckles.
Yes, but Sonic possesses the Super Emeralds, which are the Chaos Emeralds infused with the Master Emerald's power.
Yes, and that includes space pirates. Ganondorf is actually weakened in that he is vulnerable to other attacks. The biggoron sword and megaton hammer can be used against him after he is hit by a light arrow in OoT. Since Ganondorf has been defeated by being sent to another dimension, this could be performed against Ganondorf by the darkburst, thus resulting in battlefield removal.
Those two weapons cannot deal the finishing blow, though; that's Master Sword-exclusive.
We've been through this, too. The example I found from Sonic was less than 12 gigapascals, which I demonstrated tens of pages ago.
Could you quote that, please? Either way, Sonic rips apart a battleship in the games, which overrides real-world science/logic.
I brought up the excerpt to demonstrate that Samus likely possesses a soul/spirit and then further supported this by the fact that there are Chozo shamans (from the Chozo shaman bust in Metroid Prime), Chozo ghosts, the Chozo god of war, and Phantoon. Here's more about Phantoon's from the art gallery from MOM.

"Ghost-like monster that was hidden on the spaceship the Ancient Chozo used to come to Zebes. It exists as both a multidimensional corporeal body and an astral body.

"An enormous 'hand' suddenly appears from a dimensional portal! (Threatening scene)

"Head equipped with a special organ for moving to higher dimensions.

"Since it lives in multiple dimensions, you can't see the lower half of its body."

Since there is a spiritual fixation around the Light of Aether (praying for salvation from the Ing and all that jazz), and considering the Luminoth bless Samus with the Light of Aether, and since the Light of Aether offers life-giving energy (as when blessed, Samus' energy is restored), it's likely the light beam has the quality of not only life-giving energy, but sacredness as well. It would then follow that it's likely able to harm Ganondorf.
I see. Perhaps it could deal damage to Ganondorf, though I'm not sure how much it would deal. That seems to be the deciding factor here.
The only humans without the ability to drive racecars lack the ability to drive. Shulk has these abilities, though, due to his ether manipulation.
And yet, people with the ability to drive aren't always professional racecar drivers.
Zanza has no natural powers, that I know of.
When is it stated that the technique in question relies solely on the Monado?
Ice Mario can't control ice.
He can freeze water beneath him to form specifically shaped platforms.
If Zanza didn't have to learn it, neither does Shulk.
Because...?
Giving yourself wings isn't on another level, plus the Monado lll is more powerful than Zanza's Monado.
Manipulating the environment around you and manipulating yourself are rather different, I'd say.
Shulk can perform the technique known as ether manipulation.
Ether manipulation is a technique that allows the user to manipulate the body.
Therefore, Shulk can manipulate the body.
"Chaos Control!" is often exclaimed both when teleporting and freezing time. Do the characters in Xenoblade state that manipulating the body and manipulating other things are one in the same?
More power.

Then I choose not.
Why is that, may I ask?
Anyone that touches Kirby while he's invincible gets hurt, even if they're using a crush attack.
And Mega Mario is also invincible.
Kirby could dodge them on the Warp Star, or go Stone Kirby and tank the damage.
The Warp Star takes a bit of time to accelerate and take off/be called, and Link's sword strikes are rather quick. Stone Kirby is vulnerable to grabbing attacks, and presumably the Hookshot/Clawshot.
Actually, he can inhale multiple things at once.
Can he inhale something when he has something in his mouth/is spitting something out?
Needle or Invincibility Candy.
Protective, spiky shell.
What stops it from getting reflected?
The fact that it's not a projectile.
Invincibility Candy would hurt Sonic using the Homing Attack/Spin Dash, giving Kirby time to inhale while Sonic is recovering.
Super Sonic.
Crash, Paint, Mike, and Cook have six total uses.
Cook's pot is too small, and the others have limited range.
When Kirby gets close to Rosalina on the Warp Star, the Lumas won't become black holes due to the potential mistake of sucking Rosalina.
Rosalina TKs Kirby away from her.
In the end, a falling Stone Kirby will destroy Stone Rosalina, seeing as Kirby destroyed the Dedede Stone with this method (much larger than Rosalina).
The statue form protects against Thwomps (much larger than Kirby).
If necessary, a Helper and an Animal Friend can hold off the Lumas.
Yes, because two tiny summons will totally fend off an army of Lumas. :rolleyes:
 

Nerdicon

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No, but other notable Skills (customizable bonuses) include:
  • Invincible Start, which grants Sonic about ten seconds of invincibility at the start of a mission.
  • Power Sneakers, a temporary speed-up item.
  • Hercules Muscles, a strength boost.
  • Ring Time, which turns enemies into Rings.
  • Acceleration and Speed Up, which improve those stats.
  • Power Brake, which lets Sonic stop on a dime even at high speeds.
  • Sure Footed, which lets Sonic land on his feet after getting hit.
  • Ten-Second Rings, which makes dropped Rings last longer (so it's easier to pick them up).
  • Time Break, which slows down time to help reaction time, but also affects Sonic.
Not trying to be a jerk, but what game does this come from?

In other news I was combing around the Sonic wiki and found something pretty important.
SONIC CAN ONLY STOP TIME ONCE!!!!
You heard me. Sonic can only stop time once for 10 seconds. Why? Here's the explanation.
Sonic's ability to stop time comes from the multiplayer mode of SA2 where he can use the appropriately named Time Stop to stop opponents in their tracks. This brings up the first point, Time Stop is not Chaos Control. Sonic clearly has no emerald, he doesn't shout "chaos control", and the move itself has a different title.
Moving on to the most important point, Time Stop can only be used after collecting 60 rings. Now, I would argue that he can't even use Time Stop in this case, but that would need to be a group decision. What this does mean, is that Sonic only gets to use the move once as he has no way of collecting more rings. Since he needs to collect 60 rings (which I believe is more than he can carry in capsules) he can only use the move once. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that Sonic can actually harm anyone while they're frozen in time.
Some of you may be thinking "why does this matter, Sonic beats everyone anyway" well without a useful time stop, a slew of characters have a much better chance against him.
:4samus:-Is now practically invulnerable to Sonic's physical attacks (yes even the light speed attack given it's damage output). Without the time stop to worry about, Samus can effectively slow down Sonic by setting off a Power Bomb (which causes Super Sonic to lose speed and control) and then shoot rapid fire Hyper Beams at him until he finally loses all of his rings. He wouldn't be able to react due to the knockback he takes
:4kirby:-Can use the invincibility star at the very start of the match (unknowingly countering Sonic's Time Stop) jump on the warp star, apply Hypernova, and then rush towards Sonic at max speed while using the Hypernova inhale to swallow him before he can react. Sonic can't outrun something that moves faster than light can he?
:4palutena:-Mega Laser activates as soon as the match begins while Sonic tries to power up, making him lose his rings immediately and die very shortly afterwards.
...
Those are really the only three I can think of who do much better when the real effects of the time stop are taken into consideration.



:4kirby:: Kirby shares similar abilities to Samus, but he's not as durable or as fast as Samus, even with his wheelie ability. If Kirby is granted his warp star, then Samus is granted her gunship, still putting her above Kirby.
I think you're forgetting about Mirror Kirby who can generate indestructible barriers that reflect ranged attacks (in a forcefield form or a directional form) can create Mirror clones to fight with him, has an energy sword thingy, and can shoot mirror projectiles that also reflect projectiles. These taken together means that Kirby could easily defeat Samus. There's also 5 invincibility candies that last around 15.5 seconds that can be applied at any time.
The Dark Beam won't do extra damage to Mewtwo when it uses Miracle Eye.
False. Miracle Eye makes it so psychic type moves can hit dark types. It doesn't get rid of Mewtwo's weakness.
And Mega Mario is also invincible.
He can be killed via crushing or falling into a pit (vulnerability to large amounts of force) and lava (vulnerability to high temperatures) both of which Kirby can achieve via Spark and just slamming the warp star on top of Mario. Or better yet rushing at Mario on the warp star with Stone activated, jumping off while at full speed and falling on Mario in stone form which is incredibly heavy if the 8-ton weight has anything to say about it.

The Warp Star takes a bit of time to accelerate and take off/be called, and Link's sword strikes are rather quick. Stone Kirby is vulnerable to grabbing attacks, and presumably the Hookshot/Clawshot.
Kirby can get around the wait time by applying an invincibility candy which like stone, cannot be harmed in any way.

Can he inhale something when he has something in his mouth/is spitting something out?
No, but if he was sensible and used Hypernova that wouldn't be a problem as he inhales everything then swallows.

Protective, spiky shell.
Meet light speed lightning toothpick of death

The fact that it's not a projectile.
He could just Hypernova it and spit it out again, or guard, or get out of the way.

Super Sonic.
Meet FTL Hypernova

Cook's pot is too small, and the others have limited range.
Poor range isn't a problem when you can move so fast you're practically teleporting.

Rosalina TKs Kirby away from her.
Kirby goes Kabuki, Crash, or Mike to make Rosalina lose her concentration by attacking her.

The statue form protects against Thwomps (much larger than Kirby).
Because Thwomps are enemies, that's why that works. If it was a thwomp sized object that wasn't sentient it would kill her no matter what.

300th post! And a long one at that!
 

Kirby Dragons

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And yet, people with the ability to drive aren't always professional racecar drivers.
They can still drive a racecar.
When is it stated that the technique in question relies solely on the Monado?
No other factors that could contribute to it, that's what was shown.
He can freeze water beneath him to form specifically shaped platforms.
Not ice manipulation, just an ice technique.
Because...?
Because it's not something that has to be learned.
Manipulating the environment around you and manipulating yourself are rather different, I'd say.
When did I say anything about manipulation the environment?
"Chaos Control!" is often exclaimed both when teleporting and freezing time. Do the characters in Xenoblade state that manipulating the body and manipulating other things are one in the same?
No, but they don't say that they are different. Research shows that it is, while nothing shows that it isn't.
Why is that, may I ask?
I'm really not sure of the cases being presented, actually. Maybe my vote shouldn't count.
And Mega Mario is also invincible.
Stacked lollipops last longer than Mega Mushroom. If Kirby grabs Mario's leg and waits, Mario receives heavy damage from the Invincibility Candy.
The Warp Star takes a bit of time to accelerate and take off/be called, and Link's sword strikes are rather quick. Stone Kirby is vulnerable to grabbing attacks, and presumably the Hookshot/Clawshot.
Stone Kirby is only vulnerable to grabs in Smash. The Warp Star would already be in the arena thanks to the vehicle rule. Even if it wasn't, Link would take quite a bit of time to use the Magic Armor + Chateau Romani combo, which Kirby could use for calling the star.
Can he inhale something when he has something in his mouth/is spitting something out?
No, but he can swallow what he has in his mouth, or spit it out as a star to destroy projectiles coming toward him.
Protective, spiky shell.
Except Bowser would be crushing Kirby with his foot.
The fact that it's not a projectile.
The blast from the bomb is a projectile, and would therefore be reflected.
Super Sonic.
Is Super Sonic immune to inhalation?
Cook's pot is too small, and the others have limited range.
The pot can hold every enemy close enough. Every Luma close enough to suck up Kirby is close enough to get destroyed by the Copy Abilities.
Rosalina TKs Kirby away from her.
Don't think she can do that on something so heavy.
The statue form protects against Thwomps (much larger than Kirby).
Stone Kirby > Dedede Stone > Stone Rosalina > Thwomp
Yes, because two tiny summons will totally fend off an army of Lumas. :rolleyes:
Kirby destroys most of the Lumas. The summons are perfectly capable of destroying the rest.
 

Munomario777

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Not trying to be a jerk, but what game does this come from?
Sonic Generations.
In other news I was combing around the Sonic wiki and found something pretty important.
SONIC CAN ONLY STOP TIME ONCE!!!!
You heard me. Sonic can only stop time once for 10 seconds. Why? Here's the explanation.
Sonic's ability to stop time comes from the multiplayer mode of SA2 where he can use the appropriately named Time Stop to stop opponents in their tracks. This brings up the first point, Time Stop is not Chaos Control. Sonic clearly has no emerald, he doesn't shout "chaos control", and the move itself has a different title.
Moving on to the most important point, Time Stop can only be used after collecting 60 rings. Now, I would argue that he can't even use Time Stop in this case, but that would need to be a group decision. What this does mean, is that Sonic only gets to use the move once as he has no way of collecting more rings. Since he needs to collect 60 rings (which I believe is more than he can carry in capsules) he can only use the move once. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that Sonic can actually harm anyone while they're frozen in time.
Some of you may be thinking "why does this matter, Sonic beats everyone anyway" well without a useful time stop, a slew of characters have a much better chance against him.
:4samus:-Is now practically invulnerable to Sonic's physical attacks (yes even the light speed attack given it's damage output). Without the time stop to worry about, Samus can effectively slow down Sonic by setting off a Power Bomb (which causes Super Sonic to lose speed and control) and then shoot rapid fire Hyper Beams at him until he finally loses all of his rings. He wouldn't be able to react due to the knockback he takes
:4kirby:-Can use the invincibility star at the very start of the match (unknowingly countering Sonic's Time Stop) jump on the warp star, apply Hypernova, and then rush towards Sonic at max speed while using the Hypernova inhale to swallow him before he can react. Sonic can't outrun something that moves faster than light can he?
:4palutena:-Mega Laser activates as soon as the match begins while Sonic tries to power up, making him lose his rings immediately and die very shortly afterwards.
...
Those are really the only three I can think of who do much better when the real effects of the time stop are taken into consideration.

I was actually referring to Chaos Control, but thank you for bringing this to my attention! I don't think you start off with any Rings in the two-player mode, so Sonic would naturally need to collect them first; if he started off with Rings (which he is here), then this likely wouldn't be necessary. In-game testing would be required to be sure, though.
:4samus:: Sonic can tear through a battleship without even moving at supersonic speeds. What makes you think that Samus could survive a strike at light speed? Super Sonic is invincible (and if he does get damaged, it only makes him lose a few Rings), and he doesn't "lose speed and control". Hyper beams are no concern with a Ring count as high as Sonic's.
:4kirby:: Sonic also has automatic invincibility at the start of a match (Invincible Start). If Sonic for whatever reason cannot attack Kirby the first time he stops time, he could just wait for the TIme Stop to run out and use regular Chaos Control later. Since when can the Warp Star move at light speed?
:4palutena:: Invincible Start.
Also, I found a Monitor item called "Time Stop" that has a similar time-freezing effect, giving Sonic yet another method to manipulate time.
He can be killed via crushing or falling into a pit (vulnerability to large amounts of force) and lava (vulnerability to high temperatures) both of which Kirby can achieve via Spark and just slamming the warp star on top of Mario. Or better yet rushing at Mario on the warp star with Stone activated, jumping off while at full speed and falling on Mario in stone form which is incredibly heavy if the 8-ton weight has anything to say about it.
Mega Mario can only be crushed by moving, unstoppable walls (see the Thwomp example), Kirby isn't a bottomless pit, and he isn't lava either.
Kirby can get around the wait time by applying an invincibility candy which like stone, cannot be harmed in any way.
Stone can still be grabbed. Does this apply to Invincibility Candy as well?
No, but if he was sensible and used Hypernova that wouldn't be a problem as he inhales everything then swallows.
And then he could be attacked from behind while another Pokemon is keeping him busy.
Meet light speed lightning toothpick of death
Meet super-tough, spiky turtle shell of death.
He could just Hypernova it and spit it out again, or guard, or get out of the way.
Since when can Kirby inhale an explosion? Guard leaves Kirby vulnerable to stronger attacks, and the explosion covers a large area quickly.
Meet FTL Hypernova
See above.
Poor range isn't a problem when you can move so fast you're practically teleporting.
How quickly can Kirby accelerate/decelerate with the Warp Star?
Kirby goes Kabuki, Crash, or Mike to make Rosalina lose her concentration by attacking her.
Rosalina doesn't flinch from attacks.
Because Thwomps are enemies, that's why that works. If it was a thwomp sized object that wasn't sentient it would kill her no matter what.
Kirby is also an enemy. Your point?
300th post! And a long one at that!
Congrats! :kirby:
They can still drive a racecar.
They cannot compete in a race effectively, though.
No other factors that could contribute to it, that's what was shown.
Except for Zanza.
Not ice manipulation, just an ice technique.
He manipulates water to turn it into ice.
Because it's not something that has to be learned.
Some Pokemon have moves from the start, whereas others have to learn them.
When did I say anything about manipulation the environment?
Wasn't Shulk's ability to do so what you were basing this on?
No, but they don't say that they are different. Research shows that it is, while nothing shows that it isn't.
What research, may I ask?
I'm really not sure of the cases being presented, actually. Maybe my vote shouldn't count.
Okay. It would be nice if you and @ Nerdicon Nerdicon voted on the matter so we could get this over with, though. Let me get you up to speed:
MY ARGUMENT
  • Sonic gets those Rings, because:
  • He can hold them all at once in the Chao Garden
  • The minigame/sidequest rule allows Chao Garden
  • He's physically holding them on his person, since there's no sign of a credit card scanner or anything in the Black Market
  • They're the same Rings as in the main stages, since he collects them in the main stages and brings them over to the Chao Garden
SHADOW'S ARGUMENT
  • Sonic doesn't get those Rings, because:
  • They're collected by every character in the story (my counter: Sonic is still holding and spending them)
  • It differs from the main game (my counter: many things differ from game to game)
  • Let me know if I'm missing anything @ ShadowLBlue ShadowLBlue
Stacked lollipops last longer than Mega Mushroom. If Kirby grabs Mario's leg and waits, Mario receives heavy damage from the Invincibility Candy.
Invincible Kirby is still vulnerable to crushing, is he not? The Mega Mushroom is invulnerable to attacks, so this wouldn't work.
Stone Kirby is only vulnerable to grabs in Smash. The Warp Star would already be in the arena thanks to the vehicle rule. Even if it wasn't, Link would take quite a bit of time to use the Magic Armor + Chateau Romani combo, which Kirby could use for calling the star.
Ah, my bad. Can he still be crushed?

The Warp Star takes a bit of time to accelerate. Link could quickly activate the Magic Armor before using the Chateau Romani, and use it later to extend his Magic.
No, but he can swallow what he has in his mouth, or spit it out as a star to destroy projectiles coming toward him.
That does take a second, though.
Except Bowser would be crushing Kirby with his foot.
Why couldn't he do it with his shell?
The blast from the bomb is a projectile, and would therefore be reflected.
Can Mirror reflect explosions in the games?
Is Super Sonic immune to inhalation?
Regular Sonic outran a black hole for quite a while.
The pot can hold every enemy close enough. Every Luma close enough to suck up Kirby is close enough to get destroyed by the Copy Abilities.
Even ones that are far too large to actually fit? While Kirby is busy cooking up the sucked in Lumas, another one comes along and turns into a black hole.
Don't think she can do that on something so heavy.
She can stop Mario mid-ground pound, and I doubt Kirby is heavier than Mario.
Stone Kirby > Dedede Stone > Stone Rosalina > Thwomp
How so?
Kirby destroys most of the Lumas. The summons are perfectly capable of destroying the rest.
How does Kirby destroy most of the Lumas?
 

Kirby Dragons

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:4kirby:: Sonic also has automatic invincibility at the start of a match (Invincible Start). If Sonic for whatever reason cannot attack Kirby the first time he stops time, he could just wait for the TIme Stop to run out and use regular Chaos Control later. Since when can the Warp Star move at light speed?
Confirmed by Smash trophy. What happens in Smash is non-canon, not the descriptions. Most of the Warp Star description is for Smash, but the Warp Star doesn't move FTL in Smash, so that part is referring to canon.
Mega Mario can only be crushed by moving, unstoppable walls (see the Thwomp example), Kirby isn't a bottomless pit, and he isn't lava either.
He can be crushed by things that aren't sentient.
Stone can still be grabbed. Does this apply to Invincibility Candy as well?
It applies to neither.
And then he could be attacked from behind while another Pokemon is keeping him busy.
Kirby could destroy their attacks, and kill all of the Pokémon (as well as the trainer) with Crash/Mike/Paint.
Meet super-tough, spiky turtle shell of death.
Falling Stone Kirby could break through it.
Since when can Kirby inhale an explosion? Guard leaves Kirby vulnerable to stronger attacks, and the explosion covers a large area quickly.
An explosion is energy, and Kirby can inhale energy.
How quickly can Kirby accelerate/decelerate with the Warp Star?
He decelerates instantly, accelerating takes a bit more time.
Rosalina doesn't flinch from attacks.
Flinch? No. Die? Yes.
They cannot compete in a race effectively, though.
If they wanted to, they definitely could. It would just take a bit of time to get used to it, barely any time at all. Meanwhile, Shulk has had four years.
Except for Zanza.
Who Shulk is more powerful than.
He manipulates water to turn it into ice.
Not actually manipulating ice. The Ice Flower grants that power specifically, while the Monado grants the general power of ether manipulation.
Some Pokemon have moves from the start, whereas others have to learn them.
And even so, the Pokémon are granted the moves they have to learn, here, so the same should apply to Shulk.
Wasn't Shulk's ability to do so what you were basing this on?
It was actually based on manipulating the body as opposed to the surroundings.
What research, may I ask?
That ether makes up the body and surroundings equally. Monados have been shown controlling bodies, so they should be able to control surroundings just as easily.
Okay. It would be nice if you and @ Nerdicon Nerdicon voted on the matter so we could get this over with, though. Let me get you up to speed:
MY ARGUMENT
  • Sonic gets those Rings, because:
  • He can hold them all at once in the Chao Garden
  • The minigame/sidequest rule allows Chao Garden
  • He's physically holding them on his person, since there's no sign of a credit card scanner or anything in the Black Market
  • They're the same Rings as in the main stages, since he collects them in the main stages and brings them over to the Chao Garden
SHADOW'S ARGUMENT
  • Sonic doesn't get those Rings, because:
  • They're collected by every character in the story (my counter: Sonic is still holding and spending them)
  • It differs from the main game (my counter: many things differ from game to game)
  • Let me know if I'm missing anything @ ShadowLBlue ShadowLBlue
I'll just side with you.
Invincible Kirby is still vulnerable to crushing, is he not? The Mega Mushroom is invulnerable to attacks, so this wouldn't work.
Stacked lollipops last longer than Mega Mushroom, so Kirby would be invincible while Mario isn't, and Mario would get hurt.
Ah, my bad. Can he still be crushed?
I believe not, seeing as there's nothing that crushes him using a lollipop.
The Warp Star takes a bit of time to accelerate. Link could quickly activate the Magic Armor before using the Chateau Romani, and use it later to extend his Magic.
Activating the Warp Star and using the combo would take an equal amount of time then, seeing as Link would have to open the bottle and hold it to his lips.
That does take a second, though.
Actually, only about a third of a second.
Why couldn't he do it with his shell?
Not saying he couldn't, but why would he?
Can Mirror reflect explosions in the games?
Not actually sure about that.
Regular Sonic outran a black hole for quite a while.
A black hole chasing him at FTL speeds?
Even ones that are far too large to actually fit? While Kirby is busy cooking up the sucked in Lumas, another one comes along and turns into a black hole.
Then a Helper/Animal Friend comes and pounds them. And yes, even the largest enemies go in.
She can stop Mario mid-ground pound, and I doubt Kirby is heavier than Mario.
Is Mario heavy enough to completely obliterate a giant statue?
Stone Rosalina isn't protected from anything as powerful as the Dedede Stone. The Dedede Stone can destroy an entire building while Thwomps only destroy parts of them, the Dedede Stone is also larger.
How does Kirby destroy most of the Lumas?
Crash/Mike/Paint/Cook.
 

ShadowLBlue

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Messages
191
Reading over this page, it's clear that we all need to pause any on-going subjects to discuss 3 important rules: @ Nerdicon Nerdicon , @ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons , @ Munomario777 Munomario777 , @Dryn , @ BaganSmashBros BaganSmashBros , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 Reckless Godwin 2.0

1)The speed of Kirby's Warpstar. Nerdicon and Kirby Dragons think it goes FTL. While it is called the Warp Star, outside of the Smash trophies their no lore indicating it can reach warp speed. It clearly never reaches that speed in-game, including cutscenes. As for it going between planets fast, I'm not sure how much stock we should put into that since it's on a map and not necessarily reflective of it's true speed. The fastest Warp Star in Kirby's Air Ride goes 124mph; I think that would be a good speed for the Warp Star to travel.

2) MK's speed. Kirby Dragon thinks he can go FTL or some hypersonic speed. I don't believe (and I don't think I'm alone) he actually goes anywhere near that speed. Nothing in lore suggests that and as for him traveling between planets, it's not actually seen on-screen. The only time we see him flying into outer space is in the opening scene and while he's going fast enough to leave Pop Star's gravity. However I don't believe we should use this speed for 2 reasons:
    • Anytime MK is fought or played as in games he clearly flies at a very slow speed (particularly when gaining elevation) and has to stop flying to attack. Considering this is the speed he is consistently shown going at and nothing outside of 1 or 2 cutscenes suggests otherwise, this should be his flight speed.
    • Traveling between planets in space isn't proof of hyper sonic speeds; no one is suggesting Ridley can go at warp speed.
    • MK clearly gets a massive speed boost upon touching Warp Star, able to copy its speed to travel faster between select locations. Given Kirby arrives on every planet in Milky Way Wishes via Warp Star (usually left or found close to the planet's boss not just in Milky Way Wishes but many solo Kirby games where he travels between planets), I think it's more likely MK's speed in those cutscenes was influenced by him having touched a warp Star prior to the cutscene.
    • As such, I propose we use his top speed in Kirby's Air Ride (25.9 mph if I'm not mistaken) for his top flying speed and that he needs to use the same slow flying animation he uses when gaining elevation (about same speed as Kirby "jumps").
3) Attack range: For characters in 2d/2.5d games, should we just assume that long range attacks can only go max distance of the screen rather than traveling indefinitely?

@ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons
Your options on Black Market it are same as last time you voted, but:
Sonic gets his ring total from Black Market (which is located in Chao Gardens) which lets him (and any other Sonic character playable) use 999,999 rings at the Black Market, or you make the max rings he can carry the highest h 9,999

I never said he did. I said Pit's weapons are either effective against gods, or he has super strength. Whether or not it was a blow from both Hades and Pit, the point is there's collision. Furthermore, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. I'm not sure how shaking mountains is supposed to translate to mountain-level durability.
Where are you and @ Nerdicon Nerdicon getting that Pit top speed is 200mph?


Since when was Sonic holy? The point would be Ganondorf would be immortal and nothing
Muno already answered this, but Chaos Emeralds were created by gods

I addressed this in my recent match-up list.
My only disagreement is Light Arrows = Light Beam in your argument, but all light arrows do is stun Ganondorf. Maybe we can add a rule saying if a character is incapable of attacking for X amount of time it costs as a victory?


No, but other notable Skills (customizable bonuses) include:
  • Invincible Start, which grants Sonic about ten seconds of invincibility at the start of a mission.
  • Power Sneakers, a temporary speed-up item.
  • Hercules Muscles, a strength boost.
  • Ring Time, which turns enemies into Rings.
  • Acceleration and Speed Up, which improve those stats.
  • Power Brake, which lets Sonic stop on a dime even at high speeds.
  • Sure Footed, which lets Sonic land on his feet after getting hit.
  • Ten-Second Rings, which makes dropped Rings last longer (so it's easier to pick them up).
  • Time Break, which slows down time to help reaction time, but also affects Sonic.
Broken Sonic becomes more broken.

Ah. I'd be fine with that.
ok

And I'm saying that this would affect anything that is affected by bright flashes of light.
So you think anything that has eyes should be frozen too?


What traits does the Monado III have that II does not?
It's stated to be more powerful by Alvis/Zanza, I believe.

:4mario:: Mega Mushrooms only increase the size difference between them, and Kirby is still vulnerable to crushing when using an invincibility item, no?
:4link:: I doubt that Kirby's tiny attacks would deal much damage to Link (especially with his defensive upgrades), whereas Link's would be devastating to Kirby.
:4pikachu:/:pt:: Kirby can only inhale one object at once, major him vulnerable. Plus, he can't use a Copy Ability while inhaling.
:4bowser:: Bowser could crush Kirby in an instant.
:4samus:: Power Bomb. /battle
:4sonic:: Sonic can outrun/teleport out of the inhale. The spinball attacks don't reduce his size too much, and Kirby wouldn't even have a chance to inhale Sonic (he couldn't react to a hedgehog running at Mach 1, and even if he did inhale in time, Sonic could react to it and attack from behind).
:rosalina:: Black hole. /battle
Not to mention Samus can grab Kirby with her grapple beam, slam him on down (by which he'd be off of Warp Star) and unleash a power Bomb, which would do enough damage to knock off all of Kirby's hit bars.
Kirby could also be grabbed by Link and stomped on with iron boots/punched with the titan mitts (both of which would be immune to spike Kirby).

Okay, then. First off, let's go to Crisis City, from Sonic Generations:

Notice the bright orange color of the lava. Also note that Super Sonic can stand on this. According to this source, "[Lava] starts out bright orange (1000-1150 C)." Yup, that lava is bright orange, meaning that it nears 1200 C.
This is probably convection schmonvection, rather than actual immunity to high heat, as this applies to a number of our fighters here (all mario characters, Kirby, some versions of Link, etc)
]

3 hits from 1/2, 4 from ¼, 5 from empty.
Armor still exists.
Good point and agh, i forgot Armor.

Can Kirby’s suction really overpower Ike and Co‘s grip on their weapons like that? The Fire Emblem characters will typically have backup weapons (ex. main weapon, backup main weapon, ranged weapon of same type, weapon of different type) and I don't think they will fall for the same trick more than once.
No they can't, although Kirby's army of projectiles and warp star gives him an edge.

@ Munomario777 Munomario777 , @ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons , @ Nerdicon Nerdicon
I would have added the following to the black market thing for my argument:
  • was there isn't proof Sonic's the one holding the rings since he only has ring counter at the black market (not when walking around the garden)
  • If they were just Sonic's, other characters using ring at the store shouldn't be able to affect the ring count but that's not the case. Example: Sonic could collect 20,000 rings in his levels, never spend any, but then Tails could go to the black market, having only collected 200 rings in his level and the ring total would be 20,200. That's why I suggest there held at the store and used as a form of instore credit rather than being physically held by any character.
BTW, can someone send this to Nerdicon? He either ignores or consistently misses almost the posts I tag him in but he seems to respond to you two at a much higher rate. We really need him as tiebreaker for this.
 
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Crystanium

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The Dark Beam won't do extra damage to Mewtwo when it uses Miracle Eye.
I see. Well, chances are, this would have to be after Samus has used it against Mewtwo.

Light Arrows cannot defeat Ganondorf, no matter how many you shoot at him.
Can you prove that?

Those two weapons cannot deal the finishing blow, though; that's Master Sword-exclusive.
It's not about a finishing blow, however. Ganondorf has trouble with being sent into another dimension.

Could you quote that, please? Either way, Sonic rips apart a battleship in the games, which overrides real-world science/logic.
Then those ships must be weak like most of Eggman's technology. I mean, really, let's see these ships. Here's the post.

I see. Perhaps it could deal damage to Ganondorf, though I'm not sure how much it would deal. That seems to be the deciding factor here.
Damage output could be equivalent to 5,000 K, due to the white, hot light it produces. All it needs to do is weaken him, though.

I think you're forgetting about Mirror Kirby who can generate indestructible barriers that reflect ranged attacks (in a forcefield form or a directional form) can create Mirror clones to fight with him, has an energy sword thingy, and can shoot mirror projectiles that also reflect projectiles. These taken together means that Kirby could easily defeat Samus. There's also 5 invincibility candies that last around 15.5 seconds that can be applied at any time.
I did forget about mirror Kirby. How would it perform against a shinespark or power bomb?

1)The speed of Kirby's Warpstar. Nerdicon and Kirby Dragons think it goes FTL. While it is called the Warp Star, outside of the Smash trophies their no lore indicating it can reach warp speed. It clearly never reaches that speed in-game, including cutscenes. As for it going between planets fast, I'm not sure how much stock we should put into that since it's on a map and not necessarily reflective of it's true speed. The fastest Warp Star in Kirby's Air Ride goes 124mph; I think that would be a good speed for the Warp Star to travel.
Logically, in order to travel through space in a short amount of time, you must travel at high hypersonic (Mach 25+) or faster-than-light. The reason is because it would take days to get from one planet to another. I think it only takes about 12 light-seconds to travel from the Earth to the Moon. The warp star in Kirby: Air Ride is different from the one Kirby generally uses to do planetary travel.

2) MK's speed. Kirby Dragon thinks he can go FTL or some hypersonic speed. I don't believe (and I don't think I'm alone) he actually goes anywhere near that speed. Nothing in lore suggests that and as for him traveling between planets, it's not actually seen on-screen. The only time we see him flying into outer space is in the opening scene and while he's going fast enough to leave Pop Star's gravity. However I don't believe we should use this speed for 2 reasons:
    • Anytime MK is fought or played as in games he clearly flies at a very slow speed (particularly when gaining elevation) and has to stop flying to attack. Considering this is the speed he is consistently shown going at and nothing outside of 1 or 2 cutscenes suggests otherwise, this should be his flight speed.
    • Traveling between planets in space isn't proof of hyper sonic speeds; no one is suggesting Ridley can go at warp speed.
    • MK clearly gets a massive speed boost upon touching Warp Star, able to copy its speed to travel faster between select locations. Given Kirby arrives on every planet in Milky Way Wishes via Warp Star (usually left or found close to the planet's boss not just in Milky Way Wishes but many solo Kirby games where he travels between planets), I think it's more likely MK's speed in those cutscenes was influenced by him having touched a warp Star prior to the cutscene.
    • As such, I propose we use his top speed in Kirby's Air Ride (25.9 mph if I'm not mistaken) for his top flying speed and that he needs to use the same slow flying animation he uses when gaining elevation (about same speed as Kirby "jumps").

Well, Meta Ridley's speed is at least Mach 47, 48. I really don't remember which. He escapes Frigate Orpheon to get to Tallon IV, but it's likely that in Super Metroid, him traveling from Ceres Station to Zebes has been retconned as using a ship instead. The point is, even if Meta Knight's top speed is hypersonic, he doesn't battle at that speed, so there's no reason to think he will.

Where are you and @ Nerdicon Nerdicon getting that Pit top speed is 200mph?
That was the speed I ended up with when Pit heads to the Lunar Sanctum. There's also the part where Viridi helps him fly toward the direction where Paluntena is, but Pit hits an invisible barrier. The distance is at least 200 meters, and since Pit can cover it in about 1 second, that gives him a speed of 100 m/s (223.69 mi/h).[/quote]
 
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ShadowLBlue

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Messages
191
I did forget about mirror Kirby. How would it perform against a shinespark or power bomb?
It would likely block, but not reflect Power Bomb. ShineSpark is questionable since Samus is nigh-invulnerable while using it.



Logically, in order to travel through space in a short amount of time, you must travel at high hypersonic (Mach 25+) or faster-than-light. The reason is because it would take days to get from one planet to another. I think it only takes about 12 light-seconds to travel from the Earth to the Moon. The warp star in Kirby: Air Ride is different from the one Kirby generally uses to do planetary travel.
Well, Meta Ridley's speed is at least Mach 47, 48. I really don't remember which. He escapes Frigate Orpheon to get to Tallon IV, but it's likely that in Super Metroid, him traveling from Ceres Station to Zebes has been retconned as using a ship instead. The point is, even if Meta Knight's top speed is hypersonic, he doesn't battle at that speed, so there's no reason to think he will.
We don't know how long it take Kirby to travel between planets (he could "only" be going like 300,000 mph) , but I even if the Warp Star can go Warp Speed, which I actually don't doubt, I'm not confident Kirby can fight on it on that speed. We've never seen him battle that speed, so I think he'd go at a much more manageable speed in battle, like say the 124mph mentioned.

Just like even if Ridley/Meta Ridely or Samus' ship can travel Mach 47 in space, it doesn't necessarily they can battle at that speed. Ditto for MK. I feel the same about the Warp Star. It probably goes faster than it looks in game, but FTL seems like a major stretch even though it's mind controlled.

That was the speed I ended up with when Pit heads to the Lunar Sanctum. There's also the part where Viridi helps him fly toward the direction where Paluntena is, but Pit hits an invisible barrier. The distance is at least 200 meters, and since Pit can cover it in about 1 second, that gives him a speed of 100 m/s (223.69 mi/h).
...Except I thought we all agreed Pit doesnt get the power of Flight since he needs a god's help to do it.

FYI, that barrier, which Palutena put up, had to be brought down by the Lightning Chariot. I originally thought it was going as fast as lightning (it's called the lightning chariot, it routinely travels the galaxy, and leaves trails/sparks of lightning), but now I'm wondering if it wasn't possibly going at FTL speed only because when Trip is traveling on it the environment is distorted and it looks like he's coming out of a warp tunnel...
point being, if it required 2 unicorns traveling at FTL speed to break that barrier, Palutena's barrier is going to be hard for anyone but Sonic to break.

@ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons ok. Guess we don't need Nerdicon to break the tie anymore than since that makes it 4-2 in favor of Sonic not getting his ring count from black market and Nerdicon's vote wouldn't change the majority.
 

Kirby Dragons

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[quote="ShadowLBlue, post: 18985366, member: 282901]
1)The speed of Kirby's Warpstar. Nerdicon and Kirby Dragons think it goes FTL. While it is called the Warp Star, outside of the Smash trophies their no lore indicating it can reach warp speed. It clearly never reaches that speed in-game, including cutscenes. As for it going between planets fast, I'm not sure how much stock we should put into that since it's on a map and not necessarily reflective of it's true speed. The fastest Warp Star in Kirby's Air Ride goes 124mph; I think that would be a good speed for the Warp Star to travel.
[/quote]
That's still pretty fast, so alright.
2) MK's speed. Kirby Dragon thinks he can go FTL or some hypersonic speed. I don't believe (and I don't think I'm alone) he actually goes anywhere near that speed. Nothing in lore suggests that and as for him traveling between planets, it's not actually seen on-screen. The only time we see him flying into outer space is in the opening scene and while he's going fast enough to leave Pop Star's gravity. However I don't believe we should use this speed for 2 reasons:
    • Anytime MK is fought or played as in games he clearly flies at a very slow speed (particularly when gaining elevation) and has to stop flying to attack. Considering this is the speed he is consistently shown going at and nothing outside of 1 or 2 cutscenes suggests otherwise, this should be his flight speed.
    • Traveling between planets in space isn't proof of hyper sonic speeds; no one is suggesting Ridley can go at warp speed.
    • MK clearly gets a massive speed boost upon touching Warp Star, able to copy its speed to travel faster between select locations. Given Kirby arrives on every planet in Milky Way Wishes via Warp Star (usually left or found close to the planet's boss not just in Milky Way Wishes but many solo Kirby games where he travels between planets), I think it's more likely MK's speed in those cutscenes was influenced by him having touched a warp Star prior to the cutscene.
    • As such, I propose we use his top speed in Kirby's Air Ride (25.9 mph if I'm not mistaken) for his top flying speed and that he needs to use the same slow flying animation he uses when gaining elevation (about same speed as Kirby "jumps").
Not just flying between planets. He flew across the galaxy in a few seconds in KSSU. I don't have a video, though.
3) Attack range: For characters in 2d/2.5d games, should we just assume that long range attacks can only go max distance of the screen rather than traveling indefinitely?
Agree.
@Dryn I found out Miracle Eye wouldn't actually negate the extra damage, but going Mega Mewtwo X (which is likely to happen before the Dark Beam) will.
 

Munomario777

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Confirmed by Smash trophy. What happens in Smash is non-canon, not the descriptions. Most of the Warp Star description is for Smash, but the Warp Star doesn't move FTL in Smash, so that part is referring to canon.
Gameplay > Smash. We've discussed this in the past.
He can be crushed by things that aren't sentient.
Since when is Stone Kirby not sentient?
It applies to neither.
Sorry, my bad.
Kirby could destroy their attacks, and kill all of the Pokémon (as well as the trainer) with Crash/Mike/Paint.
The Pokemon could stay at a distance and fire ranged attacks.
Falling Stone Kirby could break through it.
Except Bowser is falling on Kirby, not the other way around.
An explosion is energy, and Kirby can inhale energy.
"I can eat apples. Apples are fruit. Poison berries are also fruit. Therefore, I can eat poison berries."
Has Kirby ever inhaled an explosion?
He decelerates instantly, accelerating takes a bit more time.
I see. That could leave him open for a second.
Flinch? No. Die? Yes.
With power-ups? No.
If they wanted to, they definitely could. It would just take a bit of time to get used to it, barely any time at all. Meanwhile, Shulk has had four years.
"Effectively".
Who Shulk is more powerful than.
Mario is more powerful than Olimar, yet he cannot command an army of tiny plant people.
Not actually manipulating ice. The Ice Flower grants that power specifically, while the Monado grants the general power of ether manipulation.
What types of ether manipulation has the Shulk demonstrated again?
And even so, the Pokémon are granted the moves they have to learn, here, so the same should apply to Shulk.
Pokemon have learned those moves. Shulk has not.
It was actually based on manipulating the body as opposed to the surroundings.
How does Shulk use this?
That ether makes up the body and surroundings equally. Monados have been shown controlling bodies, so they should be able to control surroundings just as easily.
Has Shulk's Monado seen controlling bodies?
I'll just side with you.
Sounds good!
Stacked lollipops last longer than Mega Mushroom, so Kirby would be invincible while Mario isn't, and Mario would get hurt.
Can Kirby with an Invincibility Candy be crushed? Mario would not take damage because Mega Mario is invincible.
I believe not, seeing as there's nothing that crushes him using a lollipop.
Not even environmental hazards?
Activating the Warp Star and using the combo would take an equal amount of time then, seeing as Link would have to open the bottle and hold it to his lips.
Link activates just the Magic Armor first, and runs up (er, down :p) to Kirby and KOs him while the Magic Armor is still active.
Not saying he couldn't, but why would he?
Because it has spikes? :p
Not actually sure about that.
Okay then.
A black hole chasing him at FTL speeds?
This was addressed in Shadow's latest proposal.
Then a Helper/Animal Friend comes and pounds them. And yes, even the largest enemies go in.
And another Luma comes out while the Helper/AF is busy. Cook Kirby only pulls in "every regular enemy, enemy projectile, defeated mid-boss and star on-screen".
Is Mario heavy enough to completely obliterate a giant statue?
Actually, yes. His Ground Pound can crush through multiple layers of stone.
Stone Rosalina isn't protected from anything as powerful as the Dedede Stone. The Dedede Stone can destroy an entire building while Thwomps only destroy parts of them, the Dedede Stone is also larger.
We're talking about Stone Kirby, not Dedede Stone.
Crash/Mike/Paint/Cook.
And during the period in between, a Luma could come over and black hole Kirby.
Reading over this page, it's clear that we all need to pause any on-going subjects to discuss 3 important rules: @ Nerdicon Nerdicon , @ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons , @ Munomario777 Munomario777 , @Dryn , @ BaganSmashBros BaganSmashBros , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 Reckless Godwin 2.0

1)The speed of Kirby's Warpstar. Nerdicon and Kirby Dragons think it goes FTL. While it is called the Warp Star, outside of the Smash trophies their no lore indicating it can reach warp speed. It clearly never reaches that speed in-game, including cutscenes. As for it going between planets fast, I'm not sure how much stock we should put into that since it's on a map and not necessarily reflective of it's true speed. The fastest Warp Star in Kirby's Air Ride goes 124mph; I think that would be a good speed for the Warp Star to travel.

2) MK's speed. Kirby Dragon thinks he can go FTL or some hypersonic speed. I don't believe (and I don't think I'm alone) he actually goes anywhere near that speed. Nothing in lore suggests that and as for him traveling between planets, it's not actually seen on-screen. The only time we see him flying into outer space is in the opening scene and while he's going fast enough to leave Pop Star's gravity. However I don't believe we should use this speed for 2 reasons:
    • Anytime MK is fought or played as in games he clearly flies at a very slow speed (particularly when gaining elevation) and has to stop flying to attack. Considering this is the speed he is consistently shown going at and nothing outside of 1 or 2 cutscenes suggests otherwise, this should be his flight speed.
    • Traveling between planets in space isn't proof of hyper sonic speeds; no one is suggesting Ridley can go at warp speed.
    • MK clearly gets a massive speed boost upon touching Warp Star, able to copy its speed to travel faster between select locations. Given Kirby arrives on every planet in Milky Way Wishes via Warp Star (usually left or found close to the planet's boss not just in Milky Way Wishes but many solo Kirby games where he travels between planets), I think it's more likely MK's speed in those cutscenes was influenced by him having touched a warp Star prior to the cutscene.
    • As such, I propose we use his top speed in Kirby's Air Ride (25.9 mph if I'm not mistaken) for his top flying speed and that he needs to use the same slow flying animation he uses when gaining elevation (about same speed as Kirby "jumps").
3) Attack range: For characters in 2d/2.5d games, should we just assume that long range attacks can only go max distance of the screen rather than traveling indefinitely?
  1. Sounds good.
  2. Sounds good.
  3. I think this should be the case if enemies offscreen are not affected.
Broken Sonic becomes more broken.
Everyone is too slow! ;D
So you think anything that has eyes should be frozen too?
If they react to bright flashes of light like the enemies in Mega Man do, I don't see why not.
Not to mention Samus can grab Kirby with her grapple beam, slam him on down (by which he'd be off of Warp Star) and unleash a power Bomb, which would do enough damage to knock off all of Kirby's hit bars.
Kirby could also be grabbed by Link and stomped on with iron boots/punched with the titan mitts (both of which would be immune to spike Kirby).
Mmmhmm.
This is probably convection schmonvection, rather than actual immunity to high heat, as this applies to a number of our fighters here (all mario characters, Kirby, some versions of Link, etc)
Super Sonic/Sonic with a Flame Shield can stand right on top of that lava.
@ Munomario777 Munomario777 , @ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons , @ Nerdicon Nerdicon
I would have added the following to the black market thing for my argument:
  • was there isn't proof Sonic's the one holding the rings since he only has ring counter at the black market (not when walking around the garden)
  • If they were just Sonic's, other characters using ring at the store shouldn't be able to affect the ring count but that's not the case. Example: Sonic could collect 20,000 rings in his levels, never spend any, but then Tails could go to the black market, having only collected 200 rings in his level and the ring total would be 20,200. That's why I suggest there held at the store and used as a form of instore credit rather than being physically held by any character.
BTW, can someone send this to Nerdicon? He either ignores or consistently misses almost the posts I tag him in but he seems to respond to you two at a much higher rate. We really need him as tiebreaker for this.
Ah, okay. I hope you don't mind if I add my counterpoints then:
  • This is likely because it's only relevant at the store, since you're not buying things outside of it. (Plus, why are physical Rings turned into non-physical credit?)
  • They share a Ring counter, and whichever character is going shopping takes that total to buy things with.
Can you prove that?
No, since I don't have a capture device, but sources like the Zelda Wiki also state this (saying that they're used to stun Ganon, with the Master Sword being used to deliver the final blow).
It's not about a finishing blow, however. Ganondorf has trouble with being sent into another dimension.
What is the largest enemy that can be sucked up by the darkburst?
Then those ships must be weak like most of Eggman's technology. I mean, really, let's see these ships. Here's the post.
I'm not sure what you're referring to here.
@ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons ok. Guess we don't need Nerdicon to break the tie anymore than since that makes it 4-2 in favor of Sonic not getting his ring count from black market and Nerdicon's vote wouldn't change the majority.
Was he not switching sides from his initial decision? @ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons , could you clarify please?
 

BaganSmashBros

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God, thats too much to quote and this page is already stretched badly, so...

Ganondorf can be finished off only by Silver Arrows in original LoZ (and maybe aLttP, i don't remember), which wasn't retconned yet like Zero Mission was. So, its not Master Sword-exclusive. Light Arrows stun him most likely because, well, god-except-not-really will still get blinded by very bright flash. Other weapons like that probably won't stun him unless they have similar property.

Sonic Boom would not be able to harm him just because light beam ammo is used. It just creates a crack in reality/space upon contact, which pretty much wipes enemies out of existence since there is no body left even for few frames. Still not something that can kill Ganondorf.

Dark Burst does not sucks stronger creatures in until they are heavely damaged.

Power Suit is not an item and can appear out of nowhere. Source - Other M and Zero Mission (not sure about last one, but cutscene before major lobster a** kicking, it just appears out of nowhere instead of being presented like a real suit of armor or something). So, Mewtwo can't steal it no matter what if its part of her.

It doesn't matters if Sages were physically strong since they didn't even touched the sword when impaling Ganondorf. You'd still die if you'll get a sword that big through the chest unless something prevents you from dieing (Triforce of Power activating just in time, for example).

@ ShadowLBlue ShadowLBlue , i agree with all 3 of them.
 

Nerdicon

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Sonic Generations.
Which he can't equip since he's already in his super form. Each of these skills takes up a certain amount of skill points, but having a super form at the ready takes up all of Sonic's skill points, so no skills from Generations or no Super Sonic.

I was actually referring to Chaos Control, but thank you for bringing this to my attention! I don't think you start off with any Rings in the two-player mode, so Sonic would naturally need to collect them first; if he started off with Rings (which he is here), then this likely wouldn't be necessary. In-game testing would be required to be sure, though.
Sonic has never used chaos control to freeze time, therefore he can't use chaos control to freeze time. Now before you call me a hypocrite concerning the whole Shulk debacle, Alvis did tell him he could re-shape the world and Shulk did. Seems pretty simple unlike chaos powers, sonic hasn't even learned how to use chaos boost or spear
:4samus:: Sonic can tear through a battleship without even moving at supersonic speeds. What makes you think that Samus could survive a strike at light speed? Super Sonic is invincible (and if he does get damaged, it only makes him lose a few Rings), and he doesn't "lose speed and control". Hyper beams are no concern with a Ring count as high as Sonic's.
Must be a pretty flimsy battleship, and if Sonic is truly moving at the speed of light he has to have infinite energy or no mass. His love for chili dogs (and by extension food) seems to indicate that he doesn't have an infinite amount of energy. So that would mean he has to lose his mass (which would make sense given that the light speed attack and homing attack do the same amount of damage). He either loses all his mass and the wind he creates does damage, or he slows down at the last second. When Super Sonic gets hit he flies backwards in a tumble animation hence losing speed and control. If he got shot at repeatedly, he couldn't move as he would get stuck in the tumble. He couldn't even chaos control as he keeps getting shot at.
:4kirby:: Sonic also has automatic invincibility at the start of a match (Invincible Start). If Sonic for whatever reason cannot attack Kirby the first time he stops time, he could just wait for the TIme Stop to run out and use regular Chaos Control later. Since when can the Warp Star move at light speed?
Your first two points I addressed earlier, and (I am a broken record at this point) Smash trophies refer to the canon in an environment where the description writers have direct communication with the creators of the games. Since lore > gameplay the trophy description gets lore priority.
:4palutena:: Invincible Start.
Also, I found a Monitor item called "Time Stop" that has a similar time-freezing effect, giving Sonic yet another method to manipulate time.
See above.
And that time stop monitor couldn't be transported, nor did it belong to Sonic

Mega Mario can only be crushed by moving, unstoppable walls (see the Thwomp example), Kirby isn't a bottomless pit, and he isn't lava either.
I'm thinking logically, the reason Mega Mario can be crushed by walls is because they generate high pressure that crushes Mario flat. Kirby as an 8-ton weight moving at near the speed of light is going to create more pressure than a large moving wall. Similarly, a lightning bolt that exceeds 30,000 K is going to kill Mega Mario as it is hotter than lava.

Stone can still be grabbed. Does this apply to Invincibility Candy as well?
NO. Stone cannot be grabbed or harmed in any way bar falling into a pit. Same goes for the invincibility candy.

And then he could be attacked from behind while another Pokemon is keeping him busy.[/quote}
Not really. I doubt they could catch an 8 inch object moving at light speed.

Meet super-tough, spiky turtle shell of death.
If this spiky shell can be crushed by a colossal plumber moving at 10-20 km per hour than it has no chance against a 15 pound object moving at lightspeed

Since when can Kirby inhale an explosion? Guard leaves Kirby vulnerable to stronger attacks, and the explosion covers a large area quickly.
Mirror, Ice, Leaf, and Bell are all invincible while guarding, Kirby can also fly out of range on the warp star. There are several bomb enemies Kirby swallows no problem, and if it exploded he could inhale the heat generated (though that's not a fantastic idea given the shockwave)

See above.
Ditto.
Sonic has only been shown moving at light speed during the light speed dash or light speed attack. He can't outrun the warp star


How quickly can Kirby accelerate/decelerate with the Warp Star?
2-3 second charge period, after that it can reverse direction near instantly. It has trouble braking though, so staying in motion is the better option

Rosalina doesn't flinch from attacks.
Then she dies after getting hit too much. It's a win either way.

Kirby is also an enemy. Your point?
Point being that the thwomp gets killed by the starman overriding the crushing aspect. Since Stone Kirby can't be harmed, the crushing overrides the starman.

Okay. It would be nice if you and @ Nerdicon Nerdicon voted on the matter so we could get this over with, though. Let me get you up to speed:
MY ARGUMENT
  • Sonic gets those Rings, because:
  • He can hold them all at once in the Chao Garden
  • The minigame/sidequest rule allows Chao Garden
  • He's physically holding them on his person, since there's no sign of a credit card scanner or anything in the Black Market
  • They're the same Rings as in the main stages, since he collects them in the main stages and brings them over to the Chao Garden
SHADOW'S ARGUMENT
  • Sonic doesn't get those Rings, because:
  • They're collected by every character in the story (my counter: Sonic is still holding and spending them)
  • It differs from the main game (my counter: many things differ from game to game)
  • Let me know if I'm missing anything @ ShadowLBlue ShadowLBlue
I disagree as well. He should have the maximum amount of rings he could have in a combat situation.

Invincible Kirby is still vulnerable to crushing, is he not? The Mega Mushroom is invulnerable to attacks, so this wouldn't work.
Not really. He still gets crushed flat but it doesn't hurt him. If an enemy tries to crush him they die instantly.

Ah, my bad. Can he still be crushed?
Not sure.

The Warp Star takes a bit of time to accelerate. Link could quickly activate the Magic Armor before using the Chateau Romani, and use it later to extend his Magic.
The magic armor doesn't protect Link from lava in Dragon Roost Cavern.

Can Mirror reflect explosions in the games?
It can reflect what causes the explosion. It also has an invincible guard

Regular Sonic outran a black hole for quite a while.
Prove that this black hole behaves like a real one.
For Hypernova to work effectively, Kirby would use Hypernova while flying at someone to swallow them quicker


Even ones that are far too large to actually fit? While Kirby is busy cooking up the sucked in Lumas, another one comes along and turns into a black hole.
All on-screen enemies stop moving when Cook is activated

She can stop Mario mid-ground pound, and I doubt Kirby is heavier than Mario.
Kirby's weight (15 pounds) < Mario's weight (200 something) < Stone's weight (supposedly 8 tons
 

Crystanium

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It would likely block, but not reflect Power Bomb. ShineSpark is questionable since Samus is nigh-invulnerable while using it.
Well, does crash kill smirrors when they're using their ability? If so, then the power bomb shouldn't be an issue, especially since it's not a projectile anyway.

We don't know how long it take Kirby to travel between planets (he could "only" be going like 300,000 mph) , but I even if the Warp Star can go Warp Speed, which I actually don't doubt, I'm not confident Kirby can fight on it on that speed. We've never seen him battle that speed, so I think he'd go at a much more manageable speed in battle, like say the 124mph mentioned.
All he'd have to do is slam into his opponent. That doesn't require fighting, but it'll kill.

Just like even if Ridley/Meta Ridely or Samus' ship can travel Mach 47 in space, it doesn't necessarily they can battle at that speed. Ditto for MK. I feel the same about the Warp Star. It probably goes faster than it looks in game, but FTL seems like a major stretch even though it's mind controlled.
They likely could, but they don't battle at that speed, so it's nothing to worry about.

...Except I thought we all agreed Pit doesnt get the power of Flight since he needs a god's help to do it.
Wings of Pegasus grant Pit the ability to fly. He's used it in Kid Icarus and Kid Icarus: Of Myths and Monsters.

FYI, that barrier, which Palutena put up, had to be brought down by the Lightning Chariot. I originally thought it was going as fast as lightning (it's called the lightning chariot, it routinely travels the galaxy, and leaves trails/sparks of lightning), but now I'm wondering if it wasn't possibly going at FTL speed only because when Trip is traveling on it the environment is distorted and it looks like he's coming out of a warp tunnel...
point being, if it required 2 unicorns traveling at FTL speed to break that barrier, Palutena's barrier is going to be hard for anyone but Sonic to break.
Not even Sonic would be able to break it if that's the case, since he doesn't travel FTL. He only travels light speed momentarily. It's doubtful Palutena will set up another barrier like that, though, since she was possessed at the time. We also don't know how long that might have taken to set up anyway.

No, since I don't have a capture device, but sources like the Zelda Wiki also state this (saying that they're used to stun Ganon, with the Master Sword being used to deliver the final blow).
"In my hour of need, grant me the light to banish evil!" - Zelda, Twilight Princess

"Our world is one of balance . . . Just as there is light to drive away darkness, so, too, is there benevolence to banish evil." - ibid, Zelda referring to the master sword

"It is none other than the Master Sword . . . The blade of evil's bane. It is the only sword that can banish Ganon from the world above!" - King of Red Lions, The Wind Waker

To banish is to send someone away or to get rid of something or someone. It appears to me the light arrows and master sword are capable of this.

What is the largest enemy that can be sucked up by the darkburst?
As far as I'm aware, an ingsmasher. It doesn't matter, though, because Ganondorf isn't as large.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here.
You said Sonic could ram into Samus and kill her instantly, since he can destroy ships. I gave you the link you asked for to demonstrate why it's not so. If it's not sending you where my post is, check my fourth post on that page. If you're not being sent to that page, it's on page 91.

Sonic Boom would not be able to harm him just because light beam ammo is used. It just creates a crack in reality/space upon contact, which pretty much wipes enemies out of existence since there is no body left even for few frames. Still not something that can kill Ganondorf.
You're missing the point. It has nothing to do with using light beam ammo. It has to do with the fact that it's using anti-matter. If matter and anti-matter come in contact with each other, it will annihilate, hence the name, "annihilator beam". Using E = mc^2, you can find out that half a gram of matter and half a gram of anti-matter coming into contact with each other will produce a yield equivalent to that of the bomb dropped on Hiroshima, Japan.

Since Ganondorf is made of matter, anti-matter is going to be a problem. I went ahead and said that the light beam should make Ganondorf vulnerable, if not outright kill him. At this point, Samus can use the darkburst or sonic boom.

Dark Burst does not sucks stronger creatures in until they are heavely damaged.
"Heavily damaged" doesn't mean much. Locusts eating crops will heavily damage the property. Exposing water to a laptop will heavily damage it. Setting a house on fire will heavily damage it. Ganondorf is vulnerable to light. I demonstrated why the light beam will work and compared its properties to that of the light arrows. Light arrows don't set things on fire, but the light beam does. It's described as "white, hot light", meaning it's at least generating 5,000 K (4,726.85°C; 8,540.33°F).
 
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ShadowLBlue

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That's still pretty fast, so alright.
It'd still make him one of top 5 fastest people.

Not just flying between planets. He flew across the galaxy in a few seconds in KSSU. I don't have a video, though.
He might have, but I think we should base his flying speed in battle off of what he's seen doing in battles. At least, I don't think he should be able to fly faster than the Warp Star.

.
Cool.

  1. Sounds good.
  2. Sounds good.
  3. I think this should be the case if enemies offscreen are not affected.
1.k
2. So what do you think MK's battle speed should be
3. agreed. I know like in Metroid or Zelda games that attacks go off screen in some games that hit foes.

Everyone is too slow! ;D
No, Sonic's just too fast lol. He's like a skyscraper tall human among us humans.

If they react to bright flashes of light like the enemies in Mega Man do, I don't see why not.
That's fine with me. So we agree it stops time and projectiles for anyone with eyes or some type of light detection?

Super Sonic/Sonic with a Flame Shield can stand right on top of that lava.
I was referring strictly to that pic of Sonic without his shield standing near lava.
Ah, okay. I hope you don't mind if I add my counterpoints then:
  • This is likely because it's only relevant at the store, since you're not buying things outside of it. (Plus, why are physical Rings turned into non-physical credit?)
  • They share a Ring counter, and whichever character is going shopping takes that total to buy things with.
Sure. I'd tag kirby so he can see your counter, but my tag isn't working for some reason.

Was he not switching sides from his initial decision? @ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons , could you clarify please?
He originally was on the side of allowing his ring count from Black Market, but then when I layed out my additional counters he changed his mind to the opposing side.

@ ShadowLBlue ShadowLBlue , i agree with all 3 of them.
Cool, so that's 4-0 for the Warp Star going 3-0; 3-0 for MK going the speed he shows in battle (flying wise) and 4-0 for attacks being limited to range on screen unless they are seen hurting off-screen foes.


Well, does crash kill smirrors when they're using their ability? If so, then the power bomb shouldn't be an issue, especially since it's not a projectile anyway.
Smirror?


All he'd have to do is slam into his opponent. That doesn't require fighting, but it'll kill.
Except the Warp Star blows up when it makes impact, so if he does this against an invincible or shielding foe, he'd just be leaving himself without a warp star for a period of time. And in the event he misses, he'd leave himself vulnerable since he'd likely have trouble stopping/doing a u-turn/turn. Also remember the Warp Star usually needs to charge before it can "change gears" (reach a new level of speed).


They likely could, but they don't battle at that speed, so it's nothing to worry about.
I take that as you being for the rule then.



Wings of Pegasus grant Pit the ability to fly. He's used it in Kid Icarus and Kid Icarus: Of Myths and Monsters.
oh ok





Not even Sonic would be able to break it if that's the case, since he doesn't travel FTL. He only travels light speed momentarily. It's doubtful Palutena will set up another barrier like that, though, since she was possessed at the time. We also don't know how long that might have taken to set up anyway.
Not at all, when the Chaos Kind possesses you, you grow weaker over time. The Chaos Kin doesn't add any new skills, it merely controls the mind/soul of it's user. There's no reason to think she'd be any less capable of making it without Chaos Kin; quite the opposite, she'd probably be better at it.
It's true the set-up time is unknown, but we're working with a lot of unknowns here for multiple fighters. I suggest we use the amount of time it takes her to charge the glam laser or GST, whichever is longer (her 2 skills with the longest charge time) just to be fair. She can always spam brief invincibility and or super armor until it's ready.
 

Crystanium

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Smirror?

Except the Warp Star blows up when it makes impact, so if he does this against an invincible or shielding foe, he'd just be leaving himself without a warp star for a period of time. And in the event he misses, he'd leave himself vulnerable since he'd likely have trouble stopping/doing a u-turn/turn. Also remember the Warp Star usually needs to charge before it can "change gears" (reach a new level of speed).

I take that as you being for the rule then.

oh ok

Not at all, when the Chaos Kind possesses you, you grow weaker over time. The Chaos Kin doesn't add any new skills, it merely controls the mind/soul of it's user. There's no reason to think she'd be any less capable of making it without Chaos Kin; quite the opposite, she'd probably be better at it.
It's true the set-up time is unknown, but we're working with a lot of unknowns here for multiple fighters. I suggest we use the amount of time it takes her to charge the glam laser or GST, whichever is longer (her 2 skills with the longest charge time) just to be fair. She can always spam brief invincibility and or super armor until it's ready.
I was certain the name of the enemy you inhale to get the mirror ability was called "smirror", a play on "smear". It's been a long time since I've played Kirby Super Star.

I'd be fine with it.

I see.
 

BaganSmashBros

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You're missing the point. It has nothing to do with using light beam ammo. It has to do with the fact that it's using anti-matter. If matter and anti-matter come in contact with each other, it will annihilate, hence the name, "annihilator beam". Using E = mc^2, you can find out that half a gram of matter and half a gram of anti-matter coming into contact with each other will produce a yield equivalent to that of the bomb dropped on Hiroshima, Japan.

Since Ganondorf is made of matter, anti-matter is going to be a problem. I went ahead and said that the light beam should make Ganondorf vulnerable, if not outright kill him. At this point, Samus can use the darkburst or sonic boom.
Ganondorf is vulnerable only to things like Silver Arrows and Master Sword. When he is ready for finishing blow in TP, WW and original LoZ, you can't damage him with anything other than Master Sword (or Silver Arrows in case of LoZ). Even if he would be weakened, he would survive anything thrown at him as long as its not one of those weapons that can kill him. He took no damage from entire castle crushing him and took no damage from Fused Shadow either (and its a very dangerous weapon). Light Beam is not same as Master Sword and Silver Arrows. If they look similar, it doesn't means they have same effect on everything. Wasn't it made of light energy from Aether's atmosphere or something?
Your first two points I addressed earlier, and (I am a broken record at this point) Smash trophies refer to the canon in an environment where the description writers have direct communication with the creators of the games. Since lore > gameplay the trophy description gets lore priority.
Smash trophies also say that Meta Ridley is vulnerable to ice attacks (lol no, its plasma beam that is his weakness and everything else is a lot less effective), Abormins is located in Dark Torvus Temple, no theories of Dark Samus' are true (haha no, its known since 1st game), etc.
Gameplay>lore
Soucre game info>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Random forum post>SSB trophy info.
 

Munomario777

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Which he can't equip since he's already in his super form. Each of these skills takes up a certain amount of skill points, but having a super form at the ready takes up all of Sonic's skill points, so no skills from Generations or no Super Sonic.
Pit can only hold one weapon in Uprising, but we're letting him switch here.
Sonic has never used chaos control to freeze time, therefore he can't use chaos control to freeze time. Now before you call me a hypocrite concerning the whole Shulk debacle, Alvis did tell him he could re-shape the world and Shulk did. Seems pretty simple unlike chaos powers, sonic hasn't even learned how to use chaos boost or spear
Chaos Control : Chaos Powers : : shape shifting : ether manipulation.

In other words, Chaos Control is one of the many Chaos Powers that exist in the Sonic series. These include:
  • Chaos Control, which can control/bend time and space
  • Chaos Blast, which creates an explosion to defeat nearby enemies
  • Chaos Spear, which launches an arrow-shaped projectile
  • Chaos Lance, which launches multiple Chaos Spears
  • Chaos Boost, which enhances the user's abilities
  • Etc.
Sonic has only demonstrated the first technique (Chaos Control), whereas Shadow is the main user of the other techniques. Similarly, Shulk hasn't demonstrated the form of ether manipulation that Zanza demonstrates.
Must be a pretty flimsy battleship,
I think Sonic was destroying the core, now that I think about it, and was escaping the resulting explosion from the inside out.
and if Sonic is truly moving at the speed of light he has to have infinite energy or no mass. His love for chili dogs (and by extension food) seems to indicate that he doesn't have an infinite amount of energy. So that would mean he has to lose his mass (which would make sense given that the light speed attack and homing attack do the same amount of damage). He either loses all his mass and the wind he creates does damage, or he slows down at the last second.
We discussed this in the past. Game physics > real world physics.
When Super Sonic gets hit he flies backwards in a tumble animation hence losing speed and control. If he got shot at repeatedly, he couldn't move as he would get stuck in the tumble. He couldn't even chaos control as he keeps getting shot at.
That is only caused by the most powerful attacks in the series (for instance, those from deities of destruction), and the Sure Footed Skill should mitigate this.
Your first two points I addressed earlier, and (I am a broken record at this point) Smash trophies refer to the canon in an environment where the description writers have direct communication with the creators of the games. Since lore > gameplay the trophy description gets lore priority.
Actually, we're doing a vote on the Warp Star's speed, and I believe the current majority is in favor of the speed being the one that's portrayed in Air Ride. I do think we should cement the place of trophy descriptions, though, with a vote. @ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons , @Dryn, @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @everyone else, what do you think?
See above.
And that time stop monitor couldn't be transported, nor did it belong to Sonic
Kirby can't carry the Miracle Fruit either.
I'm thinking logically, the reason Mega Mario can be crushed by walls is because they generate high pressure that crushes Mario flat. Kirby as an 8-ton weight moving at near the speed of light is going to create more pressure than a large moving wall. Similarly, a lightning bolt that exceeds 30,000 K is going to kill Mega Mario as it is hotter than lava.
The reason that Mega/Rainbow Mario can be crushed by moving walls is because they cannot be stopped. Nothing in the game will stop them from going on their set path, so they crush Mario instead. Thwomps, on the other hand, can be stopped, so Mega Mario survives.

What attack of Kirby's exceeds 30,000 K?
Stone cannot be grabbed or harmed in any way bar falling into a pit. Same goes for the invincibility candy.
My bad, I got that mixed up with the guard stance. I'd imagine it could be picked up by someone strong enough though.
Not really. I doubt they could catch an 8 inch object moving at light speed.
See above.
If this spiky shell can be crushed by a colossal plumber moving at 10-20 km per hour than it has no chance against a 15 pound object moving at lightspeed
When has Mario crushed Bowser's shell?
Mirror, Ice, Leaf, and Bell are all invincible while guarding, Kirby can also fly out of range on the warp star. There are several bomb enemies Kirby swallows no problem, and if it exploded he could inhale the heat generated (though that's not a fantastic idea given the shockwave)
What is the most powerful attack those guards have blocked?
Sonic has only been shown moving at light speed during the light speed dash or light speed attack. He can't outrun the warp star
The Warp Star doesn't move at light speed according to the vote (not that Kirby could control it anyways).
2-3 second charge period, after that it can reverse direction near instantly. It has trouble braking though, so staying in motion is the better option
I see. That would leave him rather vulnerable.
Then she dies after getting hit too much. It's a win either way.
Starman, Mega Mushroom, or Lucky Bell (or any power up to give her an extra hit point or two), plus the Health Mushrooms that Lumas can turn into.
Point being that the thwomp gets killed by the starman overriding the crushing aspect. Since Stone Kirby can't be harmed, the crushing overrides the starman.
Thwomps also cannot be harmed other than with an invincibility item.
I disagree as well. He should have the maximum amount of rings he could have in a combat situation.
Should we just disregard all non-combat situations then?
Not really. He still gets crushed flat but it doesn't hurt him. If an enemy tries to crush him they die instantly.
I see.
The magic armor doesn't protect Link from lava in Dragon Roost Cavern.
Really? I'll have to test that later today.
It can reflect what causes the explosion. It also has an invincible guard
That won't help much once the Power Bomb has already detonated. :p

What is the most powerful attack that Mirror has blocked?
Prove that this black hole behaves like a real one.
It sucks things in; in fact, the entire space elevator is being ripped apart during the sequence.
For Hypernova to work effectively, Kirby would use Hypernova while flying at someone to swallow them quicker
Yeah, that would likely be effective.
All on-screen enemies stop moving when Cook is activated
That's a game mechanic.
Kirby's weight (15 pounds) < Mario's weight (200 something) < Stone's weight (supposedly 8 tons
We're talking about weight and durability, not just weight.
"In my hour of need, grant me the light to banish evil!" - Zelda, Twilight Princess

"Our world is one of balance . . . Just as there is light to drive away darkness, so, too, is there benevolence to banish evil." - ibid, Zelda referring to the master sword

"It is none other than the Master Sword . . . The blade of evil's bane. It is the only sword that can banish Ganon from the world above!" - King of Red Lions, The Wind Waker

To banish is to send someone away or to get rid of something or someone. It appears to me the light arrows and master sword are capable of this.
It's a multiple-step process. First stun him with a Light Arrow so he doesn't block your strikes, then finish him off with the Master Sword. Similarly, a new spark plug can fix a car, but first you need the tools to remove the old one, open the hood, etc.
As far as I'm aware, an ingsmasher. It doesn't matter, though, because Ganondorf isn't as large.
He's pretty large in Wind Waker.
You said Sonic could ram into Samus and kill her instantly, since he can destroy ships. I gave you the link you asked for to demonstrate why it's not so. If it's not sending you where my post is, check my fourth post on that page. If you're not being sent to that page, it's on page 91.
Ah, I thought you were referring to a post focused on the Egg Fleet. In-game, Sonic can tear through space ships (this is seen in Unleashed), so that takes precedence over real life science.
1.k
2. So what do you think MK's battle speed should be
3. agreed. I know like in Metroid or Zelda games that attacks go off screen in some games that hit foes.
2. Whatever it is in the games, I suppose.
No, Sonic's just too fast lol. He's like a skyscraper tall human among us humans.
True, haha.
That's fine with me. So we agree it stops time and projectiles for anyone with eyes or some type of light detection?
Sounds good. I'm curious to whether or not it freezes the projectiles of the Robot Masters.
I was referring strictly to that pic of Sonic without his shield standing near lava.
Ah. I was using that mainly for color reference.
Sure. I'd tag kirby so he can see your counter, but my tag isn't working for some reason.
@ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons
He originally was on the side of allowing his ring count from Black Market, but then when I layed out my additional counters he changed his mind to the opposing side.
He's switched a few times, and it's gotten rather confusing. @ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons , could you please clarify your stance?

@Dryn

Actually, they're called Simirrors:
 

Kirby Dragons

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The Pokemon could stay at a distance and fire ranged attacks.
Kirby gets up close on the Warp Star (using Invincibility Candy so the attacks do nothing to him).
Except Bowser is falling on Kirby, not the other way around.
Invincibility Candy/Stone.
"I can eat apples. Apples are fruit. Poison berries are also fruit. Therefore, I can eat poison berries."
Has Kirby ever inhaled an explosion?
Oh, but you can eat poison berries. It just wouldn't be a good idea.

Even if Kirby can't inhale the explosion, he could just inhale the bomb.
I see. That could leave him open for a second.
Unless the attack was blocked by the Warp Star.
With power-ups? No.
Kirby would dish out more than eleven seconds of attacks, the Starman doesn't last long enough to block all of it.
"Effectively".
Again, there's not much that has to be done to "effectively" race with a racecar.
Mario is more powerful than Olimar, yet he cannot command an army of tiny plant people.
Mario isn't more powerful than Olimar at controlling Pikmin, but Shulk is more powerful than Zanza with his Monado.
What types of ether manipulation has the Shulk demonstrated again?
His Monado has the ability to self-ether manipulate.
Pokemon have learned those moves. Shulk has not.
Shulk is a Monado wielder, and Monado wielders have learned body manipulation.
How does Shulk use this?
Creation of modifications to the body.
Has Shulk's Monado seen controlling bodies?
Aside from more power, Shulk's Monado isn't different from Zanza's.
Can Kirby with an Invincibility Candy be crushed? Mario would not take damage because Mega Mario is invincible.
Nope, he can't be. Mario's invincibility would wear off before Kirby's invincibility, meaning that Mario isn't invincible anymore and he takes damage.
Not even environmental hazards?
The only things that can hurt him are things that can OHKO regular Kirby.
Link activates just the Magic Armor first, and runs up (er, down :p) to Kirby and KOs him while the Magic Armor is still active.
KO's him with what? Kirby could just block the damage using the Warp Star.
Because it has spikes? :p
His foot is spiked as well.
And another Luma comes out while the Helper/AF is busy. Cook Kirby only pulls in "every regular enemy, enemy projectile, defeated mid-boss and star on-screen".
And the Lumas are a regular enemy. Meanwhile, Bugzzy (who is one of Kirby's helpers) can create beetles, so him, the beetles, and the Animal Friend would equal four to defend Kirby. Bugzzy's throw attacks can also harm multiple enemies at once, so the Lumas are destroyed in bulk.
Actually, yes. His Ground Pound can crush through multiple layers of stone.
The Dedede Stone is worth more than that.
We're talking about Stone Kirby, not Dedede Stone.
And Stone Kirby destroyed the Dedede Stone, making him more powerful.
And during the period in between, a Luma could come over and black hole Kirby.
Bugzzy/beetles/Animal Friend.
Stone Kirby/Invincibility Candy.
Was he not switching sides from his initial decision? @ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons , could you clarify please?
I am on Shadow's side.
Chaos Control : Chaos Powers : : shape shifting : ether manipulation.

In other words, Chaos Control is one of the many Chaos Powers that exist in the Sonic series. These include:
  • Chaos Control, which can control/bend time and space
  • Chaos Blast, which creates an explosion to defeat nearby enemies
  • Chaos Spear, which launches an arrow-shaped projectile
  • Chaos Lance, which launches multiple Chaos Spears
  • Chaos Boost, which enhances the user's abilities
  • Etc.
Sonic has only demonstrated the first technique (Chaos Control), whereas Shadow is the main user of the other techniques. Similarly, Shulk hasn't demonstrated the form of ether manipulation that Zanza demonstrates.
Chaos Powers aren't done by Chaos Control, so Sonic can't use them. Shapeshifting is done by ether manipulation, which is a power granted by Shulk's Monado, so Shulk can use it.
Kirby can't carry the Miracle Fruit either.
He has a hand.
What is the most powerful attack those guards have blocked?
Marx's black hole, which does him tremendous damage.
I see. That would leave him rather vulnerable.
The Warp Star can block attacks.
Starman, Mega Mushroom, or Lucky Bell (or any power up to give her an extra hit point or two), plus the Health Mushrooms that Lumas can turn into.
None of those would block Crash/Mike/Cook/Paint, seeing as they would all one-shot her.
That won't help much once the Power Bomb has already detonated. :p

What is the most powerful attack that Mirror has blocked?
Mirror doesn't block attacks, it reflects projectiles.
It sucks things in; in fact, the entire space elevator is being ripped apart during the sequence.
This black hole would be chasing him, however.
That's a game mechanic.
Crash and Mike move at the speed of light/speed of sound respectively. We don't actually see the speed they move at because of the game mechanic, so that's where real-world physics come in.
We're talking about weight and durability, not just weight.
How is durability related to Rosalina making a forcefield around Stone Kirby?
 
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Reckless Godwin 2.0

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@ Reckless Godwin 2.0 Reckless Godwin 2.0 Usually, the FE characters' backup weapons are weaker. If Kirby can't inhale the initial weapons, then a Miracle Fruit would allow him to do that.
Ike’s Nihil skill would block Disarm so it might let him hold onto Ragnell. Thieves are unable to steal equipped weapons in the Fire Emblem games just to let you know and that is why the Disarm skill exists.

They're not random, though. They're the same every time you play the game, and Lumas can even choose what to turn into, as demonstrated by the Lumas that transform into
So why did he turn into a death course instead of a safe planet with a power star on it? Do the lumas want to kill Mario!?

Reading over this page, it's clear that we all need to pause any on-going subjects to discuss 3 important rules: @ Nerdicon Nerdicon , @ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons , @ Munomario777 Munomario777 , @Dryn , @ BaganSmashBros BaganSmashBros , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 Reckless Godwin 2.0

1)The speed of Kirby's Warpstar. Nerdicon and Kirby Dragons think it goes FTL. While it is called the Warp Star, outside of the Smash trophies their no lore indicating it can reach warp speed. It clearly never reaches that speed in-game, including cutscenes. As for it going between planets fast, I'm not sure how much stock we should put into that since it's on a map and not necessarily reflective of it's true speed. The fastest Warp Star in Kirby's Air Ride goes 124mph; I think that would be a good speed for the Warp Star to travel.

2) MK's speed. Kirby Dragon thinks he can go FTL or some hypersonic speed. I don't believe (and I don't think I'm alone) he actually goes anywhere near that speed. Nothing in lore suggests that and as for him traveling between planets, it's not actually seen on-screen. The only time we see him flying into outer space is in the opening scene and while he's going fast enough to leave Pop Star's gravity. However I don't believe we should use this speed for 2 reasons:
    • Anytime MK is fought or played as in games he clearly flies at a very slow speed (particularly when gaining elevation) and has to stop flying to attack. Considering this is the speed he is consistently shown going at and nothing outside of 1 or 2 cutscenes suggests otherwise, this should be his flight speed.
    • Traveling between planets in space isn't proof of hyper sonic speeds; no one is suggesting Ridley can go at warp speed.
    • MK clearly gets a massive speed boost upon touching Warp Star, able to copy its speed to travel faster between select locations. Given Kirby arrives on every planet in Milky Way Wishes via Warp Star (usually left or found close to the planet's boss not just in Milky Way Wishes but many solo Kirby games where he travels between planets), I think it's more likely MK's speed in those cutscenes was influenced by him having touched a warp Star prior to the cutscene.
    • As such, I propose we use his top speed in Kirby's Air Ride (25.9 mph if I'm not mistaken) for his top flying speed and that he needs to use the same slow flying animation he uses when gaining elevation (about same speed as Kirby "jumps").
3) Attack range: For characters in 2d/2.5d games, should we just assume that long range attacks can only go max distance of the screen rather than traveling indefinitely?
  1. The Warp Star should use Kirby’s Air Ride speed because it’s highest speed was obtained in space rather than near the surface of a planet where air drag is a drag.
  2. Agreed.
  3. Abstain for now. What bothers me about projectiles disappearing when they go off screen is similar to how enemies respawn off screen as well as it sounds like a game mechanic rather than a limit to Kirby’s range.
What types of ether manipulation has the Shulk demonstrated again?

Pokemon have learned those moves. Shulk has not.

Has Shulk's Monado seen controlling bodies?
Light Heal and every single Monado Art.

How many times do we have to tell you, Shulk doesn't need to learn how to do something beforehand with the Monado in order to do it. I've compared this with wishing on the United Triforce.

No. but Zanza’s Monado has (crippling Dunban and completely possessing Arglas). Meyneth was able to take control of Fiora in a similar fashion (aside from letting her have control most of the time). It’s interesting how Zanza didn’t possess Shulk in the same manner as Arglas, does this mean Shulk has some resistance to mind control?



Would PK Flash work on Palutena the Goddess of Light?

What does tagging a post mean?
 

Kirby Dragons

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Ike’s Nihil skill would block Disarm so it might let him hold onto Ragnell. Thieves are unable to steal equipped weapons in the Fire Emblem games just to let you know and that is why the Disarm skill exists.
Kirby wins without taking the sword, he just uses Mike.
What does tagging a post mean?
This. @headbandjigg
It sends someone a notification to look at your post.
 

Munomario777

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Kirby gets up close on the Warp Star (using Invincibility Candy so the attacks do nothing to him).
Pokemon can spread out, you know.
Invincibility Candy/Stone.
Invincibility Candy has limited uses, and one hit from Bowser will knock Stone out of him (if it doesn't kill him outright, of course).
Oh, but you can eat poison berries. It just wouldn't be a good idea.
Yes, that's what I meant.
Even if Kirby can't inhale the explosion, he could just inhale the bomb.
As seen in Other M, the bombs don't have to be physically present; in that game, Samus goes into her morph ball form, and an explosion happens.
Unless the attack was blocked by the Warp Star.
If something hits the Warp Star, it explodes.
Kirby would dish out more than eleven seconds of attacks, the Starman doesn't last long enough to block all of it.
Mega Mushroom. Lucky Bell. Et cetera.
Again, there's not much that has to be done to "effectively" race with a racecar.
In a professional level race?
Mario isn't more powerful than Olimar at controlling Pikmin, but Shulk is more powerful than Zanza with his Monado.
What does Shulk do with his Monado, and what does Zanza do with his?
His Monado has the ability to self-ether manipulate.
When does Shulk do this?
Shulk is a Monado wielder, and Monado wielders have learned body manipulation.
Some Monado wielders have learned body manipulation (or rather, one has, that being Zanza).
Creation of modifications to the body.
Exactly when and how does Shulk perform this?
Aside from more power, Shulk's Monado isn't different from Zanza's.
I see.
Nope, he can't be. Mario's invincibility would wear off before Kirby's invincibility, meaning that Mario isn't invincible anymore and he takes damage.
Starman, Rainbow Star, Mega Mushroom, Lucky Bell, Statue Leaf, etc. beg to differ.
The only things that can hurt him are things that can OHKO regular Kirby.
Which are? Also, what is the strongest attack that doesn't OHKO regular Kirby?
KO's him with what? Kirby could just block the damage using the Warp Star.
Which would destroy the Warp Star, which his Kirby's best method of travel.
His foot is spiked as well.
Not on the bottom.
And the Lumas are a regular enemy.
And Rosalina is not.
Meanwhile, Bugzzy (who is one of Kirby's helpers) can create beetles, so him, the beetles, and the Animal Friend would equal four to defend Kirby. Bugzzy's throw attacks can also harm multiple enemies at once, so the Lumas are destroyed in bulk.
Would they be able to destroy hundreds of Lumas, all coming in at high speeds at the same time?
The Dedede Stone is worth more than that.
What do you mean "worth more"?
And Stone Kirby destroyed the Dedede Stone, making him more powerful.
What has Dedede Stone crushed, and what has Stone Kirby crushed?
Bugzzy/beetles/Animal Friend.
...cannot defend against hundreds of high-speed Lumas.
Stone Kirby/Invincibility Candy.
That's not my argument.
I am on Shadow's side.
Ah, I see. Why is that, may I ask?
Chaos Powers aren't done by Chaos Control, so Sonic can't use them. Shapeshifting is done by ether manipulation, which is a power granted by Shulk's Monado, so Shulk can use it.
Chaos Powers : Chaos Control : : ether manipulation : shapeshifting. What type of ether manipulation has Shulk performed?
He has a hand.
And cannot carry it with him in the game.
Marx's black hole, which does him tremendous damage.
And how much power does that possess?
The Warp Star can block attacks.
And would then get destroyed.
None of those would block Crash/Mike/Cook/Paint, seeing as they would all one-shot her.
They make her invincible, and attacks on the level of Crash/Mike/Cook/Paint haven't been shown to damage her.
Mirror doesn't block attacks, it reflects projectiles.
I thought you said it had an invincible guard?
This black hole would be chasing him, however.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
Crash and Mike move at the speed of light/speed of sound respectively. We don't actually see the speed they move at because of the game mechanic, so that's where real-world physics come in.
How quickly do they move in-game?
How is durability related to Rosalina making a forcefield around Stone Kirby?
Ah, my bad. Anyway, Rosalina can stop the ground pound, which has enough force to crush multiple layers of stone. Does Stone Kirby have more force than that?
So why did he turn into a death course instead of a safe planet with a power star on it? Do the lumas want to kill Mario!?
Because then there would be no game.
Light Heal and every single Monado Art.
And how do these relate to shapeshifting?
How many times do we have to tell you, Shulk doesn't need to learn how to do something beforehand with the Monado in order to do it. I've compared this with wishing on the United Triforce.
When is this stated?
No. but Zanza’s Monado has (crippling Dunban and completely possessing Arglas). Meyneth was able to take control of Fiora in a similar fashion (aside from letting her have control most of the time). It’s interesting how Zanza didn’t possess Shulk in the same manner as Arglas, does this mean Shulk has some resistance to mind control?
So, if Shulk hasn't been shown to perform this, then why would it be given to him?
 

ShadowLBlue

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Messages
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Rule update:
23. Sonic's highest ring total shall come from the highest it was in a game (which would be the 9,999 in Sonic Unleased), not the Black Market. [It was already a rule, but muno asked for a recount.] Vote- 5-2. [For: Kirby Dragons, Reckless G, Me, Bagan, Nerdicon; Against: muno, Dryn]
24. Kirby's Warp Star can go a max of 124 mph in this battle. Vote: 6-0 [For: Me, Dryn, Bagan, muno, Kirby D, Reckless]
25. Meta Knight's fighting flight speed should be what is shown in battle, not the cutscene where he flew across the galaxy. (Vote: 5-0) [For: Me, muno, Reckless, Dryn, Bagan]
26. Attacks from 2d and 2.5d games go as far as the screen (assuming they go that far) unless it can be seen/heard that they hit something off-screen. (Vote:4-0) [For: Me, muno, Kirby D, Bagan]

I was certain the name of the enemy you inhale to get the mirror ability was called "smirror", a play on "smear". It's been a long time since I've played Kirby Super Star.

I'd be fine with it.

I see.
Oh. I love Kirby, but don't know the names of most the non-boss enemies. I could play test it and find out, but maybe @ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons or @ Nerdicon Nerdicon know off the top of their head. I'm positive it blocks it, but if you're asking if it reflects it, than no.

Ok.

Did you see the rule proposal about attacks having a range of the screen (this is mostly for 2d and 2.5 d games) unless we can see that it hurt an enemy off screen?

My bad, I got that mixed up with the guard stance. I'd imagine it could be picked up by someone strong enough though.
Actually no, the only way Stone Kirby can die is if he were to do it over a bottomless pit. I don't think even doing it over spikes/lava would break it. The problem with Stone Kirby is you can just wait for him to revert to normal and hit him (assuming he's out of invincibility candy).

As for his other guards:
Ice: Can be pushed around by attacks (even though they don't do damage) and grabbed. Also, some fire attacks hit through it as well.
Bell: Can be pushed around by attacks (even though they don't do damage) and grabbed.
Archer: All attacks pass through, even grabs. Can be hit when crawling or attacking while camouflaged.
Leaf: All attacks pass through, even grabs.
Stone: All attacks pass through, even grabs,

The Warp Star doesn't move at light speed according to the vote (not that Kirby could control it anyways).
Everyone has voted except Reckless and Nerdicon, but a majority (actually 5, only 4 would be a majority) has been reached so we don't need more. We're saying Kirby's top Warp Star speed will be 124mph.


Sounds good. I'm curious to whether or not it freezes the projectiles of the Robot Masters.
Me too. Someone should (not it!) should buy Megaman 4 off of VC and test it out. I suck at Mega man, so I'm thinking one of you guys do it.

None of those would block Crash/Mike/Cook/Paint, seeing as they would all one-shot her.
Why would Crash OHKO Rosalina (if she wasn't small) when it can't even OHKO bosses?
And Rosalina's too big for Cook.
Mike would only OHKO because it's 3 attacks and if all 3 hit she'd run out of "lives" since the health system for Mario characters only lets them take 3 consecutive hits (assuming a power-up is activated)

Mirror doesn't block attacks, it reflects projectiles.
I think it also blocks attacks too if we're talking about the shield.
Crash and Mike move at the speed of light/speed of sound respectively. We don't actually see the speed they move at because of the game mechanic, so that's where real-world physics come in.
Except Crash has that 2-3 second build-up, so he'd need to get within a few feet of anyone to use it (that being said, with his warp star, wouldn't be too hard vs most people.)

Ike’s Nihil skill would block Disarm so it might let him hold onto Ragnell. Thieves are unable to steal equipped weapons in the Fire Emblem games just to let you know and that is why the Disarm skill exists.
Also wanted to say it's totally false that their back-up weapons are usually weaker. Only applies early in the games for weaker characters.

  1. The Warp Star should use Kirby’s Air Ride speed because it’s highest speed was obtained in space rather than near the surface of a planet where air drag is a drag.
  2. Agreed.
  3. Abstain for now. What bothers me about projectiles disappearing when they go off screen is similar to how enemies respawn off screen as well as it sounds like a game mechanic rather than a limit to Kirby’s range.
Ok.
ok.
Fair point, but everyone who votes already agreed on it.

Would PK Flash work on Palutena the Goddess of Light?
She has means to block it or recover from it, but if it hit then it should work.
 

Munomario777

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Rule update:
23. Sonic's highest ring total shall come from the highest it was in a game (which would be the 9,999 in Sonic Unleased), not the Black Market. [It was already a rule, but muno asked for a recount.] Vote- 5-2. [For: Kirby Dragons, Reckless G, Me, Bagan, Nerdicon; Against: muno, Dryn]
Okay, I can work with that I suppose.
Actually no, the only way Stone Kirby can die is if he were to do it over a bottomless pit. I don't think even doing it over spikes/lava would break it. The problem with Stone Kirby is you can just wait for him to revert to normal and hit him (assuming he's out of invincibility candy).
I never said he could be killed; I just said he could be picked up. :p
As for his other guards:
Ice: Can be pushed around by attacks (even though they don't do damage) and grabbed. Also, some fire attacks hit through it as well.
Bell: Can be pushed around by attacks (even though they don't do damage) and grabbed.
Archer: All attacks pass through, even grabs. Can be hit when crawling or attacking while camouflaged.
Leaf: All attacks pass through, even grabs.
Stone: All attacks pass through, even grabs,
For Archer, should we work with the "camouflage" only protecting one side?
Mike would only OHKO because it's 3 attacks and if all 3 hit she'd run out of "lives" since the health system for Mario characters only lets them take 3 consecutive hits (assuming a power-up is activated)
Rosalina could equip another power-up in between attacks.
 

FooltheFlames

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Ness by himself isn't that powerful (Gyigas wasn't defeated by him or any of the members of his party and neither was Porky).
Link has other means of winning and fairies can't revive him forever. Ganon-dieing is for scrubs-dorf, Samus "Who the hell made those weapons" Aran and Mewtwo are among those who can anyhow handle him, but then there are Magic Cape and that booze that gives him 3 days of unlimited magic, so...
Yeah!
You cant forget about the legendary Chateau Romani!


Infinite magic = Invincibility!

So I say Link is the strongest! :awesome:
 
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Nerdicon

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He has a hand.
His stomach is basically hammerspace, so he can store it there (along with all the copy essences, star rod, misc. ability stars, special items, master, maybe a spare warp star or two).

Mirror doesn't block attacks, it reflects projectiles.
It does both actually.

Pit can only hold one weapon in Uprising, but we're letting him switch here.
Because if we didn't we'd downplay the character, not allowing him access to something he can store and that he owns is ridiculous. Sonic on the other hand does not own this object and has no way of storing it. Someone like Link (who has demonstrated hammerspace) Kirby (who has his stomach) or Ness (he has a backpack) could use outside items as they not only have storage, but own the object as well

Chaos Control : Chaos Powers : : shape shifting : ether manipulation.

In other words, Chaos Control is one of the many Chaos Powers that exist in the Sonic series. These include:
  • Chaos Control, which can control/bend time and space
  • Chaos Blast, which creates an explosion to defeat nearby enemies
  • Chaos Spear, which launches an arrow-shaped projectile
  • Chaos Lance, which launches multiple Chaos Spears
  • Chaos Boost, which enhances the user's abilities
  • Etc.
Sonic has only demonstrated the first technique (Chaos Control), whereas Shadow is the main user of the other techniques. Similarly, Shulk hasn't demonstrated the form of ether manipulation that Zanza demonstrates.
Not really. Sonic has only demonstrated basic space manipulation on his own, and that was after seeing it done a few times. Shulk was just told he had the power to reshape the world with no prior instruction or example. Shadow is the only Sonic character seen using all of the chaos powers. It can be assumed he's the only one who can based on his affinity with the chaos energy. So no, Sonic can't use chaos control.

We discussed this in the past. Game physics > real world physics.
In that case the light speed attack is useless, it does the same amount of damage as the homing attack.

That is only caused by the most powerful attacks in the series (for instance, those from deities of destruction), and the Sure Footed Skill should mitigate this.
The hyper beam is arguably the strongest Metroid weapon in existence. It OHKO-es all of the normal enemies in Super Metroid

Actually, we're doing a vote on the Warp Star's speed, and I believe the current majority is in favor of the speed being the one that's portrayed in Air Ride. I do think we should cement the place of trophy descriptions, though, with a vote. @ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons , @Dryn, @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @everyone else, what do you think?
You already know my opinion, but I'll make a case. The trophies in Smash refer to the canon with only occasional mistakes (seemingly exclusive to the Metroid franchise) and therefore should be used as lore as if it was written in-game. The only part of Smash that's non-canon is the fighting, last I checked Stone couldn't be grabbed. As for @ ShadowLBlue ShadowLBlue 's points, the reason there is no in-game lore is because the series doesn't really have it's stuff written down somewhere. The smash trophies refer to the lore of other games, so it should be the same for Kirby. We never see the Warp Star reach warp speed? Sounds familiar *cough*most of the entire roster*cough*.

Kirby can't carry the Miracle Fruit either.
Stomach dimension. Your argument is invalid

The reason that Mega/Rainbow Mario can be crushed by moving walls is because they cannot be stopped. Nothing in the game will stop them from going on their set path, so they crush Mario instead. Thwomps, on the other hand, can be stopped, so Mega Mario survives.
That's exactly what I've been saying. Mario has no way to stop Kirby from falling on him so he gets crushed.
What attack of Kirby's exceeds 30,000 K?
Spark has several lightning attacks, and lightning exceeds 30,000 K. How do I know it acts like actual lightning? It looks like lightning, it moves as fast as lightning (covering it's range instantly), and shares many qualities with lightning.

My bad, I got that mixed up with the guard stance. I'd imagine it could be picked up by someone strong enough though.
If a wormhole to another dimension that warps the light around it isn't enough, I doubt anyone can pick it up.

When has Mario crushed Bowser's shell?
In NSMB, Mega Mario can instantly defeat Bowser.

The Warp Star doesn't move at light speed according to the vote (not that Kirby could control it anyways).
The vote isn't over with, and I doubt he would frequently use a vehicle he couldn't control

I see. That would leave him rather vulnerable.
Mirror and Spark can create forcefields he could just project one around the warp star.
Starman, Mega Mushroom, or Lucky Bell (or any power up to give her an extra hit point or two), plus the Health Mushrooms that Lumas can turn into.
For one Rosalina has never used those health mushrooms and doesn't have the health system to use them in, not to mention that Rosalina gets one 12 second Starman while Kirby gets 5 15.5 second invincibility candies. The Lucky Bell doesn't protect from lava so Spark Kirby could still beat her (instantly) by hitting her with the lightning.

Thwomps also cannot be harmed other than with an invincibility item.

Should we just disregard all non-combat situations then?
More accurately, we should disregard casual situations

That won't help much once the Power Bomb has already detonated. :p
It'll stop him from getting blown to bits!

It sucks things in; in fact, the entire space elevator is being ripped apart during the sequence.
We're objects around it being spaghettified? Was time dilating? Was the light around the black hole warped? If any of these are no than that clearly does not function like an actual black hole

That's a game mechanic.
Then Mega Man is a sitting duck when he wants to change weapons. Not to mention I was incorrect, since all enemies that fit in the pot will go there. It's ineffective against everything else of I remember correctly

We're talking about weight and durability, not just weight.
Mario (eight hits) < Kirby (moderate durability) < Stone (invincible)

24. Kirby's Warp Star can go a max of 124 mph in this battle. Vote: 6-0 [For: Me, Dryn, Bagan, muno, Kirby D, Reckless]
I don't belive @Dryn actually voted, and besides the warp star from Air Ride is not the same warp star from the other games. The warp star in Air Ride was a machine, while the real warp star is magical.
25. Meta Knight's fighting flight speed should be what is shown in battle, not the cutscene where he flew across the galaxy. (Vote: 5-0) [For: Me, muno, Reckless, Dryn, Bagan]
That cutscene is valid, just unimportant since he wasn't shown attacking. If he had absorbed a warp star he would have little stars trailing him.
 
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