Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Kirby Dragons]

Pokemon can spread out, you know.

And the Warp Star can travel faster than they can spread out.

Invincibility Candy has limited uses, and one hit from Bowser will knock Stone out of him (if it doesn't kill him outright, of course).

Stacked Invincibility Candy lasts for over a minute. That's a minute of pain to Bowser. Bowser can't knock anything out of Kirby as a stone. Bowser also has no chance against Crash/Mike/Paint/Cook.

Yes, that's what I meant.

You can eat a poison berry. Kirby can eat an explosion.

As seen in Other M, the bombs don't have to be physically present; in that game, Samus goes into her morph ball form, and an explosion happens.

Then Kirby inhales the explosion.

If something hits the Warp Star, it explodes.

The Warp Star can fly at high speeds into Metaluns (which are made of metal) without getting destroyed.

Mega Mushroom. Lucky Bell. Et cetera.

And Kirby activates the ability right after the Starman wears off.

In a professional level race?

Yep.

What does Shulk do with his Monado, and what does Zanza do with his? When does Shulk do this? Exactly when and how does Shulk perform this?

I'm just going to ignore this repetitive ignorance.

Some Monado wielders have learned body manipulation (or rather, one has, that being Zanza).

Yeah, that was my point. Some Pikachu have learned Electro Ball, yet the Pikachu here gets it whether he learned it or not.

We need to just settle this vote already. @Dryn @ Nerdicon
Should Shulk be able to control his body?

Starman, Rainbow Star, Mega Mushroom, Lucky Bell, Statue Leaf, etc. beg to differ.

Kirby, holding on to Mario, kills him right after one of those wears off. They don't stack like the lollipops.

Which are? Also, what is the strongest attack that doesn't OHKO regular Kirby?

Pits and lava. Marx's black hole.

Which would destroy the Warp Star, which his Kirby's best method of travel.

See above.

Not on the bottom.

Yet, Bowser's very likely to crush Kirby with his foot anyways. Even if Bowser tried using his shell, it wouldn't work on Kirby using Invincibility Candy or Stone.

And Rosalina is not.

Crash/Mike/Paint work on her.

Would they be able to destroy hundreds of Lumas, all coming in at high speeds at the same time?

You're exaggerating there. The largest amount of Lumas that Rosalina has summoned was less than 100. And, in the beginning of SMG, we actually see Rosalina summon a Luma, and it has a bit of starting lag. Kirby can easily dish out tons of damage to Rosalina while she's summoning the Lumas, and that would actually halt the process. So instead of "hundreds", more like five.

What do you mean "worth more"?

Dedede Stone is worth more than ten of the stone layers that Mario destroyed.

What has Dedede Stone crushed, and what has Stone Kirby crushed?

Stone Kirby crushed straight through the Dedede Stone. Dedede Stone destroyed an entire building at 15:00.

...cannot defend against hundreds of high-speed Lumas.

More like five or six.

Ah, I see. Why is that, may I ask?

It's extremely unlikely that Sonic can collect all 999,999 rings by himself, so all of those would pretty much count as loaned weapons.

Chaos Powers : Chaos Control : : ether manipulation : shapeshifting. What type of ether manipulation has Shulk performed?

We haven't actually seen his true potential.

And cannot carry it with him in the game.

He needed to use the fruit right away, so why would he carry it?

And how much power does that possess?

I'm actually mistaken, because guarding doesn't stop the black hole.

And would then get destroyed.

See above.

They make her invincible, and attacks on the level of Crash/Mike/Cook/Paint haven't been shown to damage her.

Crash/Mike/Paint can one-shot enemies that take two hits normally (that's Rosalina). Lava can one-shot Rosalina, who takes two hits.

I thought you said it had an invincible guard?

Nerdicon knows more about that.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Kirby inhaling while riding the Warp Star.

How quickly do they move in-game?

We don't actually see, because everything stops.

Ah, my bad. Anyway, Rosalina can stop the ground pound, which has enough force to crush multiple layers of stone. Does Stone Kirby have more force than that?

Dedede Stone is more than ten layers (see 18:54 for proof of that).

So, if Shulk hasn't been shown to perform this, then why would it be given to him?

Because there is lore saying that he can.

Why would Crash OHKO Rosalina (if she wasn't small) when it can't even OHKO bosses?

Because bosses have more health than Rosalina does.

 

[Nerdicon]

1. The Warp Star should use Kirby’s Air Ride speed because it’s highest speed was obtained in space rather than near the surface of a planet where air drag is a drag.

I've already stated why this shouldn't be the case (you should read that post) and there's no way that an 8 inch sphere is going to move at a snail's pace due to air drag when trying to move at FTL speeds. That's not really how it works.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Okay, I can work with that I suppose.

IMO the only match-up it really changes is vs Link, who can now out last him with his Magic Cape + Chateau Romani combo.

I never said he could be killed; I just said he could be picked up.

I wasn't trying to imply you did, just making a statement.

For Archer, should we work with the "camouflage" only protecting one side?

We've had this debate already; Me (and I believe Nerdicon and Kirby Dragons) think it's a game mechanic due to it being a 2.5d game, you think it should be taken as is and that it's only one sided. I'm not sure any of our minds will change. Do you want to just vote on it?

Rosalina could equip another power-up in between attacks.

Yea, I was just saying if she is hit 3 times in a row.

I don't belive @Dryn actually voted, and besides the warp star from Air Ride is not the same warp star from the other games. The warp star in Air Ride was a machine, while the real warp star is magical.

I think he did, but we can wait and see. And I'm aware of both (as wear as the lore thing) but we don't really have a point of reference for Warp Star's speed besides that one. I think going with 124mph is pretty fair medium. Besides, if I'm correct about Dryn' having voted for this rule, everyone but you voted for it, so it's enough to pass.
I don't think it's a game mechanic that Warp Star is often (at least twice) shown being shot down by attacks that he'd be able to dodge if he could easily control it going FTL.

That cutscene is valid, just unimportant since he wasn't shown attacking. If he had absorbed a warp star he would have little stars trailing him.

No one's saying it's not valid (well, I'm not) just that the speed MK is shown going in battle is consistently slower than that. And since you agree it's unimportant, aren't you essentially agreeing with the rule?

Anyway more proposals: @Dryn , @ Munomario777 , @ Kirby Dragons , @ Nerdicon , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @ BaganSmashBros
26. How should we find a balance between giving characters their abilities/weapons/skills at their best (i.e. in some games Link's Master Sword can't use the sword beam, but obviously we're assuming he can in this fight) with also making characters not have abilities they normally don't display (i.e. Meta Knight -outside of one or 2 cutscenes- has never been shown or given any reason to justify that he can fly at FTL speed, particularly in battles where his flight is actually rather slow)?
27. Should invincible fighters be able to do touch damage to other fighters?
27a. If so, how much damage?
28. Knockback is a real thing, but I propose recoil animations are counted as a game mechanic just like invincibility frames.
29. Since Palutena isn't seen creating her barrier on screen, and it's such a strong barrier, it should have the same charge time as the glam laser-16 seconds. (arguably her strongest move, which also requires charging, although it can be released sooner). She can still use non-offensive powers during this time.
30. How many Lumas/centurions can Rosalina/Palutena be able to summon at a time?
31. Can Shulk use skills he's not seen using but Zanza/Meyenth is since his Monado is equal if not stronger than both (referring specifically to attacks/abilities they are SEEN doing; hypotheticals about manipulating his body and Monado are addressed in the 2 following rules)
32. Can Shulk morph his monado into other items despite it not being shown in the game (Reckless, correct me if I'm wrong on that)
33. Can Shulk manipulate his body (does anyone have footage of him or Zanza actually doing so in a way that goes beyond changing into a monster human hybrid?)

 

[Munomario777]

Because if we didn't we'd downplay the character, not allowing him access to something he can store and that he owns is ridiculous. Sonic on the other hand does not own this object and has no way of storing it. Someone like Link (who has demonstrated hammerspace) Kirby (who has his stomach) or Ness (he has a backpack) could use outside items as they not only have storage, but own the object as well

Since when is "downplaying the character" a factor in this?

Not really. Sonic has only demonstrated basic space manipulation on his own, and that was after seeing it done a few times.

What about the example you provided from the multiplayer mode, where Sonic can freeze time? Not to mention that he can induce time travel just like Shadow can in '06.

Shulk was just told he had the power to reshape the world with no prior instruction or example.

Power as in authority; he told Alvis to reshape the world and how he wanted it to be reshaped. We've been over this before.

Shadow is the only Sonic character seen using all of the chaos powers. It can be assumed he's the only one who can based on his affinity with the chaos energy. So no, Sonic can't use chaos control.

Then how exactly does Sonic use it to escape the falling space capsule?

In that case the light speed attack is useless, it does the same amount of damage as the homing attack.

Because the Homing Attack KOs most enemies in one hit.

The hyper beam is arguably the strongest Metroid weapon in existence. It OHKO-es all of the normal enemies in Super Metroid

How quickly can it be fired?

Stomach dimension. Your argument is invalid

Kirby cannot use the Hypernova after he first inhales it; he always has to find one/

That's exactly what I've been saying. Mario has no way to stop Kirby from falling on him so he gets crushed.

Why can't Mario stop Kirby from falling on him?

Spark has several lightning attacks, and lightning exceeds 30,000 K. How do I know it acts like actual lightning? It looks like lightning, it moves as fast as lightning (covering it's range instantly), and shares many qualities with lightning.

As Dryn put it:

Lightning strikes people, but it doesn't set them on fire. Also, plasma can be at room temperature, which is known as non-thermal plasma.

If a wormhole to another dimension that warps the light around it isn't enough, I doubt anyone can pick it up.

Does that pull in regular Kirby? If so, at what rate?

In NSMB, Mega Mario can instantly defeat Bowser.

I see. Mega Mario =/= regular Mario in terms of force.

The vote isn't over with, and I doubt he would frequently use a vehicle he couldn't control

Everyone has voted except Reckless and Nerdicon, but a majority (actually 5, only 4 would be a majority) has been reached so we don't need more. We're saying Kirby's top Warp Star speed will be 124mph.

Mirror and Spark can create forcefields he could just project one around the warp star.

Has Kirby been shown to extend them around the Warp Star?

For one Rosalina has never used those health mushrooms and doesn't have the health system to use them in,

It's safe to assume that they would provide three extra hit points, since that's the effect they have in-game.

not to mention that Rosalina gets one 12 second Starman while Kirby gets 5 15.5 second invincibility candies.

And a 25 second Mega Mushroom, and an unlimited-use Lucky Bell.

The Lucky Bell doesn't protect from lava so Spark Kirby could still beat her (instantly) by hitting her with the lightning.

See above.

More accurately, we should disregard casual situations

Why is that?

It'll stop him from getting blown to bits!

How so?

We're objects around it being spaghettified? Was time dilating? Was the light around the black hole warped? If any of these are no than that clearly does not function like an actual black hole

Here's a video for reference. We don't get to see anything get spaghettified because it just disappears into the void, and similarly the purple aura around it (presumably from the mind control energy being sucked in) sort of obscures any light warping that might be happening. Likewise, time dilation is relative, and we only see one perspective at a time, so we can't tell.

Then Mega Man is a sitting duck when he wants to change weapons. Not to mention I was incorrect, since all enemies that fit

I'd imagine that he could still move while switching (or his computer brain would make it quicker).

Mario (eight hits) < Kirby (moderate durability) < Stone (invincible)

Except Mario has invincibility items, health restores, and isn't eight inches tall (which would reduce the scale of the attacks he's enduring).

I don't belive @Dryn actually voted, and besides the warp star from Air Ride is not the same warp star from the other games. The warp star in Air Ride was a machine, while the real warp star is magical.

A majority has been reached.

And the Warp Star can travel faster than they can spread out.

It takes a few seconds to accelerate.

Stacked Invincibility Candy lasts for over a minute. That's a minute of pain to Bowser. Bowser can't knock anything out of Kirby as a stone. Bowser also has no chance against Crash/Mike/Paint/Cook.

With some creative thinking, Bowser could utilize his Koopa Clown Car. Aside from flying away, he could also turn it upside down, put it on Kirby (trapping him inside like a spider in a cup), sit on it (so that Kirby cannot get out due to his weight), and wait it out.

You can eat a poison berry. Kirby can eat an explosion.

Since when? Also, I don't know where we made that leap in subjects.

Then Kirby inhales the explosion.

Has he been shown to do this?

The Warp Star can fly at high speeds into Metaluns (which are made of metal) without getting destroyed.

And Metaluns don't really have attack (they deal touch damage,

And Kirby activates the ability right after the Starman wears off.

Mega Mushroom. Lucky Bell.

Yeah, that was my point. Some Pikachu have learned Electro Ball, yet the Pikachu here gets it whether he learned it or not.

And no Shulks have learned shape shifting.

We need to just settle this vote already. @Dryn @ Nerdicon
Should Shulk be able to control his body?

Or, for a more general approach, should Shulk be able to perform techniques that only Zanza has performed?

Kirby, holding on to Mario, kills him right after one of those wears off. They don't stack like the lollipops.

Mario can equip them without moving, and Kirby couldn't hold Mario due to the massive size difference.

Pits and lava. Marx's black hole.

And the second question

Crash/Mike/Paint work on her.

...if Kirby got close enough.

You're exaggerating there. The largest amount of Lumas that Rosalina has summoned was less than 100. And, in the beginning of SMG, we actually see Rosalina summon a Luma, and it has a bit of starting lag. Kirby can easily dish out tons of damage to Rosalina while she's summoning the Lumas, and that would actually halt the process. So instead of "hundreds", more like five.

In Smash, the character is Rosalina and the Luma race. Since the Lumas are part of the character, they are in the arena at the very start, so Rosalina already has her army.

Dedede Stone is worth more than ten of the stone layers that Mario destroyed.

In monetary value, or...?

Stone Kirby crushed straight through the Dedede Stone. Dedede Stone destroyed an entire building at 15:00.

And what feats of durability does the Dedede Stone demonstrate?

It's extremely unlikely that Sonic can collect all 999,999 rings by himself, so all of those would pretty much count as loaned weapons.

It's very possible by replaying levels.

We haven't actually seen his true potential.

Unless you can prove that it exists, we can't assume that he has it.

He needed to use the fruit right away, so why would he carry it?

The fact that there is no option indicates that he couldn't carry one.

I'm actually mistaken, because guarding doesn't stop the black hole.

No worries.

Crash/Mike/Paint can one-shot enemies that take two hits normally (that's Rosalina). Lava can one-shot Rosalina, who takes two hits.

Eight-inch Kirby hits =/= full-scale Mario hits.

Kirby inhaling while riding the Warp Star.

When has Kirby's inhale been shown to have the force of a black hole?

We don't actually see, because everything stops.

I see. We should use the length of the animation, then.

Dedede Stone is more than ten layers (see 18:54 for proof of that).

And Mario's ground pound can crush more than ten layers.

Because there is lore saying that he can.

Which lore says that Shulk can shape shift in a manner similar to Zanza?

Because bosses have more health than Rosalina does.

As proven by? As stated above, Kirby is on a much smaller scale than Mario, so the hits likely don't equal as much damage.

IMO the only match-up it really changes is vs Link, who can now out last him with his Magic Cape + Chateau Romani combo.

Sonic could probably knock the bottle out of his hand before he can drink it, and if not, his speed should allow him to stall Link out.

I wasn't trying to imply you did, just making a statement.

Ah, okay.

We've had this debate already; Me (and I believe Nerdicon and Kirby Dragons) think it's a game mechanic due to it being a 2.5d game, you think it should be taken as is and that it's only one sided. I'm not sure any of our minds will change. Do you want to just vote on it?

Yeah, a vote sounds good. If it's a game mechanic as you, Nerdicon, and KD think, wouldn't it be disregarded here?

Yea, I was just saying if she is hit 3 times in a row.

Ah.

Anyway more proposals:
26. How should we find a balance between giving characters their abilities/weapons/skills at their best (i.e. in some games Link's Master Sword can't use the sword beam, but obviously we're assuming he can in this fight) with also making characters not have abilities they normally don't display (i.e. Meta Knight -outside of one or 2 cutscenes- has never been shown or given any reason to justify that he can fly at FTL speed, particularly in battles where his flight is actually rather slow)?

Include anything they can do/have done within the rules. Just because they don't often demonstrate an ability doesn't mean it should be disregarded.

27. Should invincible fighters be able to do touch damage to other fighters?
27a. If so, how much damage?

I think that would be good, and we should determine the amount on a case-by-case basis.

28. Knockback is a real thing, but I propose recoil animations are counted as a game mechanic just like invincibility frames.

What do you mean by recoil animations?

29. Since Palutena isn't seen creating her barrier on screen, and it's such a strong barrier, it should have the same charge time as the glam laser-16 seconds. (arguably her strongest move, which also requires charging, although it can be released sooner). She can still use non-offensive powers during this time.

I'm not knowledgeable about Kid Icarus, so I won't comment on this.

30. How many Lumas/centurions can Rosalina/Palutena be able to summon at a time?

As I stated above, the Lumas should be there from the beginning since they're part of the core character. As for Centurions, I suppose whatever amount is portrayed in Kid Icarus. I dunno though; I don't play Kid Icarus.

 

[Nerdicon]

I think he did, but we can wait and see. And I'm aware of both (as wear as the lore thing) but we don't really have a point of reference for Warp Star's speed besides that one. I think going with 124mph is pretty fair medium. Besides, if I'm correct about Dryn' having voted for this rule, everyone but you voted for it, so it's enough to pass.
I don't think it's a game mechanic that Warp Star is often (at least twice) shown being shot down by attacks that he'd be able to dodge if he could easily control it going FTL.

Not trying to be a jerk, especially since you're probably the only unbiased person here, but that doesn't really make sense.
"And I'm aware of both (as wear as the lore thing) but we don't really have a point of reference for Warp Star's speed besides that one" if that's the only reference point, shouldn't we use it?

 

[lelelelelel]

 

[Crystanium]

Ganondorf is vulnerable only to things like Silver Arrows and Master Sword.

Can you prove that? Perhaps you'll quote from the game, at which point I will then ask you to prove that, as you are taking the series' word, which has no say concerning other series'.

When he is ready for finishing blow in TP, WW and original LoZ, you can't damage him with anything other than Master Sword (or Silver Arrows in case of LoZ).

It's scripted to be that way. You cannot defeat Mother Brain with anything other than the hyper beam. Does that mean no other weapon would be able to defeat her after she returns from having all of her energy absorbed?

Even if he would be weakened, he would survive anything thrown at him as long as its not one of those weapons that can kill him.

Is that so? Because the light arrows expose Ganondorf by piercing through his defenses and he's rendered vulnerable to the biggoron sword and/or megaton hammer. This lack of defense would make Ganondorf mortal for the time being, as he is a human, not just according to Zelda, but Hyrule Historia as well.

He took no damage from entire castle crushing him and took no damage from Fused Shadow either (and its a very dangerous weapon).

That's because of his defense. We don't know what happened when Midna attacked.

Light Beam is not same as Master Sword and Silver Arrows. If they look similar, it doesn't means they have same effect on everything. Wasn't it made of light energy from Aether's atmosphere or something?

The Luminoth apparently worship and pray to the Light of Aether. It is U-Mos who prayed for salvation, but who would he be praying to? Prayer has its origin from the 14th century, "'from Old French prier "prayer, petition, request' (12c., Modern French prière), from Medieval Latin precaria 'petition, prayer,' noun use of Latin adjective precaria, fem. of precarius 'obtained by prayer, given as a favor,' from precari 'to ask, beg, pray'." - Online Etymology Dictionary - Prayer

So U-Mos is praying to someone or something. U-Mos and other Luminoths through their holograms will bless Samus, saying, "May the Light of Aether shine upon you!" Upon doing so, Samus' health will be restored. These two things demonstrate that the Luminoth have some religious or spiritual fixation on the Light of Aether. What this then means is that the Light of Aether is regarded as sacred, sacred meaning "connected with God (or the gods) or dedicated to a religious purpose and so deserving of veneration.

Next is the fact that the light beacon and light crystals use light energy. Considering the formation of the lightbringer, it too, uses this light energy. What's worth noting is that the lightbringer is described as generating a "life-giving energy". This can be seen with the light beacon and light crystals as well. It's also worth considering that the concept of souls or spirits is not foreign to the Metroidverse. This has been known since Super Metroid in the battle against Phantoon.

This is especially seen in Metroid Prime with the Chozo ghosts and their religious areas in the Chozo Ruins. We know that the Chozo have shamans based on one of the four busts that can be scanned prior to battling a Sheegoth and acquiring the wave beam. There's also the Chozo god of war in Metroid: Zero Mission where Samus must overcome the trial to restore her will power and acquire the legendary power suit.

The point is that the light energy from the light beam is not only made of light, but also is sacred and has life, qualities that can be found in the master sword. The master sword is sacred, but it has another trait that is made especially known from the force gems in the Zelda series. Upon collecting 1,000 force gems, Link's sword will be endowed with the power to repel evil. This means that force (or light force in the English) is what makes the blade evil's bane. If it was sacredness alone, then according to Munomario777, even light arrows would be able to kill Ganondorf. He doesn't believe that.

He's pretty large in Wind Waker.

He's stout, no doubt. And tall, too. Ganondorf is 7'6" according to Hyrule Historia. Samus is 206 pixels tall in that image comparing her to the Ingsmasher. 206 px. is equal to 1.9 meters (6'3"). The Ingsmasher is 325 px., meaning it's 2.997 m. This means the Ingsmasher is at least 9'10".

Ah, I thought you were referring to a post focused on the Egg Fleet. In-game, Sonic can tear through space ships (this is seen in Unleashed), so that takes precedence over real life science.

If you think that we cannot impose science onto the Sonicverse, then we cannot impose the physics in the Sonicverse onto the Metroidverse. So while Sonic may have destroyed egg fleets, that's not going to mean much if you're going to dismiss our laws of physics, which simplifies everything so that we're all working on equal terms. Maybe you could provide videos from Sonic Heroes and Sonic Unleashed.

Did you see the rule proposal about attacks having a range of the screen (this is mostly for 2d and 2.5 d games) unless we can see that it hurt an enemy off screen?

I oppose it. The destruction of what's on screen only occurs because the enemies can be seen. For example, in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, Richter Belmont can use hydro storm. If he begins to walk left or right, it'll follow him. You could try coming up with an explanation for that, but say Kirby's crash attack can vaporize enemies. He's at least producing 2.99 gigajoules, or almost 1 ton of TNT (0.71 tons). That would cover more range than what we actually see.

In that case the light speed attack is useless, it does the same amount of damage as the homing attack.

I've pointed this out to Munomario777. If he's going to insist on using video game physics, then the light speed dash isn't traveling light speed as we know it. I've also made it clear that the only logical explanation is that Sonic is traveling light speed and then regains his mass, thus hitting his target. I pointed out as well that light speed dash is just the homing attack with the light speed so that Sonic can cover the distance faster, but only dealing the same amount of damage as the homing attack. We never got anywhere with this.

I don't belive @Dryn actually voted, and besides the warp star from Air Ride is not the same warp star from the other games. The warp star in Air Ride was a machine, while the real warp star is magical.

You're right, I didn't vote for that. All I did was explain why the warp star would need to travel high hypersonic or FTL and said that the warp star in Kirby: Air Ride isn't the same as the one Kirby typically rides. I've simply been opposed to the idea that Kirby gets the warp star, otherwise, everyone else gets their vehicles (ignoring Star Fox characters and Captain Falcon, who are always in their vehicles in their games, though some Star Fox games allow being on foot).

@ Kirby Dragons
Unless Shulk has demonstrated the ability to control his body, he shouldn't be allowed to do that.

I think he did, but we can wait and see. And I'm aware of both (as wear as the lore thing) but we don't really have a point of reference for Warp Star's speed besides that one. I think going with 124mph is pretty fair medium. Besides, if I'm correct about Dryn' having voted for this rule, everyone but you voted for it, so it's enough to pass.
I don't think it's a game mechanic that Warp Star is often (at least twice) shown being shot down by attacks that he'd be able to dodge if he could easily control it going FTL.

I didn't vote for the rule. I apologize for any misunderstanding. I did point out, however, that if Kirby is given the warp star, then everyone else should be given their vehicles.

Anyway more proposals: @Dryn , @ Munomario777 , @ Kirby Dragons , @ Nerdicon , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @ BaganSmashBros
26. How should we find a balance between giving characters their abilities/weapons/skills at their best (i.e. in some games Link's Master Sword can't use the sword beam, but obviously we're assuming he can in this fight) with also making characters not have abilities they normally don't display (i.e. Meta Knight -outside of one or 2 cutscenes- has never been shown or given any reason to justify that he can fly at FTL speed, particularly in battles where his flight is actually rather slow)?
27. Should invincible fighters be able to do touch damage to other fighters?
27a. If so, how much damage?
28. Knockback is a real thing, but I propose recoil animations are counted as a game mechanic just like invincibility frames.
29. Since Palutena isn't seen creating her barrier on screen, and it's such a strong barrier, it should have the same charge time as the glam laser-16 seconds. (arguably her strongest move, which also requires charging, although it can be released sooner). She can still use non-offensive powers during this time.
30. How many Lumas/centurions can Rosalina/Palutena be able to summon at a time?
31. Can Shulk use skills he's not seen using but Zanza/Meyenth is since his Monado is equal if not stronger than both (referring specifically to attacks/abilities they are SEEN doing; hypotheticals about manipulating his body and Monado are addressed in the 2 following rules)
32. Can Shulk morph his monado into other items despite it not being shown in the game (Reckless, correct me if I'm wrong on that)
33. Can Shulk manipulate his body (does anyone have footage of him or Zanza actually doing so in a way that goes beyond changing into a monster human hybrid?)

Honestly, the simplest way to make things balanced is by using the strongest incarnation from each game. While Ness and Lucas aren't given that luxury, it could be balanced in that characters with multiple incarnations, that is, many games, but restricted to the gear, items, upgrades from said game. For example, in a battle against Samus versus Ness, Samus could be downplayed to her NES version. I know it's been retconned with Metroid: Zero Mission, but that would be fair.

If the star from the Mario series or the candy from the Kirby series causes damage, then it should be allowed. We don't know what the barrier around them is made of, but its apparently capable of harming. The question is, how much damage is being caused?

Knockback should be allowed. It's a game mechanic in that the game is programmed to behave that way. It's nothing like invincible frames. Some games lack invincible frames, or at least invincible frames long enough to overcome knockback.

I think Shulk should be able to perform his abilities that he's only performed. He shouldn't be allowed to use the same abilities as Zanza if he's never demonstrated it.

Shulk should only be allowed to morph his Monado into the closest thing his universe can replicate. For example, I doubt the Monado could morph into Samus' arm cannon. If there's a type of cannon he can create in his own game, then that would be the closest he can get to. He cannot perfectly create the master sword, but if he can make something similar that's within the realm of Xenoblade, then he could be allowed doing that.

If Shulk cannot manipulate his body, then he shouldn't be granted that ability.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Kirby wins without taking the sword, he just uses Mike.

This. @headbandjigg
It sends someone a notification to look at your post.

Do you honestly think Kirby is going to one shot a super human like Ike (Mr. I tank Ballista fire with my chest)?

Thanks for the tip! Any dos or don’ts (etiquette) when it comes to tagging (or a link to such)?

Stone Kirby crushed straight through the Dedede Stone. Dedede Stone destroyed an entire building at 15:00.

Dedede Stone is more than ten layers (see 18:54 for proof of that).

That Dedede stone is huge (any idea how tall is it due to Kirby‘s small size?)! I don’t see Mario beating it with a few mere ground pounds.

Nice going Kirby (applause)! There aren’t any layers, it’s solid all the way through.

Anyway more proposals: @Dryn , @ Munomario777 , @ Kirby Dragons , @ Nerdicon , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @ BaganSmashBros
26. How should we find a balance between giving characters their abilities/weapons/skills at their best (i.e. in some games Link's Master Sword can't use the sword beam, but obviously we're assuming he can in this fight) with also making characters not have abilities they normally don't display (i.e. Meta Knight -outside of one or 2 cutscenes- has never been shown or given any reason to justify that he can fly at FTL speed, particularly in battles where his flight is actually rather slow)?
27. Should invincible fighters be able to do touch damage to other fighters?
27a. If so, how much damage?
28. Knockback is a real thing, but I propose recoil animations are counted as a game mechanic just like invincibility frames.
29. Since Palutena isn't seen creating her barrier on screen, and it's such a strong barrier, it should have the same charge time as the glam laser-16 seconds. (arguably her strongest move, which also requires charging, although it can be released sooner). She can still use non-offensive powers during this time.
30. How many Lumas/centurions can Rosalina/Palutena be able to summon at a time?
31. Can Shulk use skills he's not seen using but Zanza/Meyenth is since his Monado is equal if not stronger than both (referring specifically to attacks/abilities they are SEEN doing; hypotheticals about manipulating his body and Monado are addressed in the 2 following rules)
32. Can Shulk morph his monado into other items despite it not being shown in the game (Reckless, correct me if I'm wrong on that)
33. Can Shulk manipulate his body (does anyone have footage of him or Zanza actually doing so in a way that goes beyond changing into a monster human hybrid?)

I hate to admit but we would likely have to debate on it.

Sure but only in the form of ramming and tackles ( they could do this without invincibility but get stopped by enemy touch damage). Kirby might be a bit different because he seems to be radiating something.
No more damage than standard attacks (Mario ramming into you is less painful than being stomped on).

Are you saying virtual characters won’t feel virtual pain?

Abstain due to lack of knowledge.

Abstain due to lack of knowledge.

Since Zanza and Meyneth had no trouble using their Monados despite never being taught I’d imagine Shulk would have no difficulties replicating their feats. Shulk had no difficulty learning Monado Shield and Speed which might be because the Monado reacted to his will to protect his comrades (Reyn and Sharla respectively).
Replicable feats include:
Flight (Zanza and Meyneth (Shulk was knocked out at the time this happened but his comrades might have told him about this)).
One instance (likely Two considering the fall from Galahad Fortress) of mass levitation (Meyneth)(Might be related to Seven’s Zero Gravity art)
Two instances of shielding against huge explosions (Meyneth).
Causing explosions large enough to leave craters in the Earth (Zanza as Monado I)(Leaves Monado Wound secret area in Sword Valley. Might be how that M104 Fortress unit wound up on the Fallen Arm).
Remote control of the Bionis complete with a Bionis-sized blade of light (Zanza).
Ability to draw the vanquished Meyneth‘s Monado to him (similar to drawing a light saber to a Jedi)(Zanza).
Teleporting (Zanza).
Triggered a massive increase in the amount of ether in the upper reaches of the Bionis causing the genocide of the High Entia (Zanza).
Create a pair of Doppelgangers (Zanza’s Guardians).
All of Zanza’s assorted attacks in his boss battles.
The destruction and Recreation of the world (Zanza did so an unspecified number of times).
Created all living beings including races in their own image (Homs and Machina)(Zanza and Meyneth).
Creating a controllable titan form was the very 1st thing they did(Zanza’s Bionis and Meyneth’s Mechonis).

Zanza’s Monado has taken on 3 forms: Monado I, Monado II and the version he wields from the events at Mechonis Core onwards.
Meyneth’s Monado has taken 3 forms: the triangular emblem mounted on Seven (allowed for the use of the Final Cross art), a pair of dual wielded swords and a single large sword when it came into Zanza’s possession.
Shulk’s Monado III was made from the light that suddenly emanated from his comrade’s weapons though he possessed visions even before this event.

No but we do have Zanza and Meyneth becoming the Bionis and Mechonis and it is implied that Meyneth had a physical form separate from the Mechonis as well based on her effigy and statue in Agniratha.

Here's a video for reference. We don't get to see anything get spaghettified because it just disappears into the void, and similarly the purple aura around it (presumably from the mind control energy being sucked in) sort of obscures any light warping that might be happening. Likewise, time dilation is relative, and we only see one perspective at a time, so we can't tell.

And what feats of durability does the Dedede Stone demonstrate?

That is one weird Black Hole! The things that bother me are how fast it expands (there can’t possibly be enough mass for it feed on) and that it looks like a dark nuclear blast went off (could the floor be pulled up by pressure differential?).

It doesn’t collapse in on itself when it moves for one.

 

[grizzlygabe]

I made an account just to say this:

Game and watch, being a 2d being, cannot exist in a 3d world with any other fighter
Sonic couldn't use the chaos emeralds against Mewtwo. He would just use telekinesis to take them from sonic or make him go brain-dead before the could think to use them
Ganondorf could just transform into Ganon and kill anyone he was having trouble with. There is a canon timeline where he beat Link in OoT.
If Marth having the Falchion means he's immune to everything but dragon/manakete attacks, does this apply to Lucina?
Mega Man cannot harm humans
Zelda is the incarnation of Hylia, so does that mean her attacks are holy?
Captain Falcon can withstand mach speeds and can destroy galaxies with a punch

 

[TKD]

If we're basing it off the actual games, Palutena probably has the biggest feats.
Mewtwo would lose a 1v2 battle against a lot of high tiered pairs of pokémon, which I can't imagine Samus doing.
I didn't play Mario Galaxy so I don't know Rosalina's feats but she wasn't very impressive in 3D World.
Kirby's not too resilient.

I'd say Palutena or the Arwing pilots in large scale combat, Samus or Pit in hand to hand.
Megaman X has impressive feats but regular Megaman not so much.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

26. How should we find a balance between giving characters their abilities/weapons/skills at their best (i.e. in some games Link's Master Sword can't use the sword beam, but obviously we're assuming he can in this fight) with also making characters not have abilities they normally don't display (i.e. Meta Knight -outside of one or 2 cutscenes- has never been shown or given any reason to justify that he can fly at FTL speed, particularly in battles where his flight is actually rather slow)?

No balance.

27. Should invincible fighters be able to do touch damage to other fighters?

Nope.

28. Knockback is a real thing, but I propose recoil animations are counted as a game mechanic just like invincibility frames.

Recoil is a real thing too, so I vote keeping it.

29. Since Palutena isn't seen creating her barrier on screen, and it's such a strong barrier, it should have the same charge time as the glam laser-16 seconds. (arguably her strongest move, which also requires charging, although it can be released sooner). She can still use non-offensive powers during this time.

Let's not nerf her like this.

30. How many Lumas/centurions can Rosalina/Palutena be able to summon at a time?

The amount they have summoned canonically.

31. Can Shulk use skills he's not seen using but Zanza/Meyenth is since his Monado is equal if not stronger than both (referring specifically to attacks/abilities they are SEEN doing; hypotheticals about manipulating his body and Monado are addressed in the 2 following rules)

Sí.

32. Can Shulk morph his monado into other items despite it not being shown in the game (Reckless, correct me if I'm wrong on that)

Yeah.

33. Can Shulk manipulate his body (does anyone have footage of him or Zanza actually doing so in a way that goes beyond changing into a monster human hybrid?)

It's one of his powers, so yes.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Game and watch, being a 2d being, cannot exist in a 3d world with any other fighter

Paper exists in a 3D world.

Sonic couldn't use the chaos emeralds against Mewtwo. He would just use telekinesis to take them from sonic or make him go brain-dead before the could think to use them

Agreement.

Ganondorf could just transform into Ganon and kill anyone he was having trouble with. There is a canon timeline where he beat Link in OoT.

Wow.

If Marth having the Falchion means he's immune to everything but dragon/manakete attacks, does this apply to Lucina?

Falchion only negates direct (physical) attacks. However, the Darksphere negates all damage for both of them.

Mega Man cannot harm humans

Why not?

Zelda is the incarnation of Hylia, so does that mean her attacks are holy?

It would make sense.

Captain Falcon can withstand mach speeds and can destroy galaxies with a punch

Okay to the first one, but it was actually a bomb that destroyed the galaxy.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Why not?

Programmed that way. Its one of those The Three Laws of Robotics.

Okay to the first one, but it was actually a bomb that destroyed the galaxy.

His punch still is very powerful. Surely not as powerful as it was said to be in that video (it said it was nearly as powerful as FOAB). But it did had unnatural effect on hit (electric spark or something like that, either way, its something about electricity and that doesn't happens when you punch someone).

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Because the Homing Attack KOs most enemies in one hit.

Weak enemies, which Kirby is not.

Has Kirby been shown to extend them around the Warp Star?

Doesn't matter, because he can.

And a 25 second Mega Mushroom, and an unlimited-use Lucky Bell.

Stacked lollipops last longer than Mega Mushroom + Starman. Mario has to switch out of the statue some time.

Except Mario has invincibility items, health restores, and isn't eight inches tall (which would reduce the scale of the attacks he's enduring).

Invincibility items for 40 seconds. Kirby has items for 75 seconds, plus Stone.

It takes a few seconds to accelerate.

Kirby makes a spark field.

With some creative thinking, Bowser could utilize his Koopa Clown Car. Aside from flying away, he could also turn it upside down, put it on Kirby (trapping him inside like a spider in a cup), sit on it (so that Kirby cannot get out due to his weight), and wait it out.

Kirby can destroy metal (Metaluns) with his attacks. Or, he could go Animal Kirby and dig out.

Since when? Also, I don't know where we made that leap in subjects.

Explosion is energy, which he can inhale.

Has he been shown to do this?

He can inhale energy.

And Metaluns don't really have attack (they deal touch damage,

The Metaluns touch the Warp Star.

Mega Mushroom. Lucky Bell.

Can Mario activate these instantly with no delay? The attack would take effect right after the Starman.

And no Shulks have learned shape shifting.

Your logic is flawed. So o if there's one Charizard who didn't learn Flamethrower, Charizard can't use Flamethrower here?

Or, for a more general approach, should Shulk be able to perform techniques that only Zanza has performed?

We're voting on both.

Mario can equip them without moving, and Kirby couldn't hold Mario due to the massive size difference.

He won't be holding Mario, he'll be holding Mario's leg.

And the second question

Not sure.

...if Kirby got close enough.[

Should be easy on 124 MPH Warp Star.

In Smash, the character is Rosalina and the Luma race. Since the Lumas are part of the character, they are in the arena at the very start, so Rosalina already has her army.

Smash. Isn't. Canon.

If we're going with Smash, that means only one Luma at a time.

In monetary value, or...?

He's more than ten layers.

And what feats of durability does the Dedede Stone demonstrate?

Someone whacks him hard, and a couple tiny fragments come off.

It's very possible by replaying levels.

Still less likely than others doing it for him.

Unless you can prove that it exists, we can't assume that he has it.

Ether manipulation lore.

The fact that there is no option indicates that he couldn't carry one.

There's no option for Rosalina to attack Kirby either, yet it's something she can do.

Eight-inch Kirby hits =/= full-scale Mario hits.

His attacks aren't weak, provided he can take out beings of planetary power.

When has Kirby's inhale been shown to have the force of a black hole?

It doesn't need the force of a black hole. Sonic hasn't displayed immunity to black holes. He could only outrun one, yet it would be difficult when Hypernova Kirby is chasing him at a high speed.

And Mario's ground pound can crush more than ten layers.

Since when?

Which lore says that Shulk can shape shift in a manner similar to Zanza?

Ether manipulation.

As proven by? As stated above, Kirby is on a much smaller scale than Mario, so the hits likely don't equal as much damage.

See above. Also, two punches from Kirby would KO Rosalina, while they wouldn't do much to a miniboss. More health.

 

[Munomario777]

He's stout, no doubt. And tall, too. Ganondorf is 7'6" according to Hyrule Historia. Samus is 206 pixels tall in that image comparing her to the Ingsmasher. 206 px. is equal to 1.9 meters (6'3"). The Ingsmasher is 325 px., meaning it's 2.997 m. This means the Ingsmasher is at least 9'10".

I see.

If you think that we cannot impose science onto the Sonicverse, then we cannot impose the physics in the Sonicverse onto the Metroidverse. So while Sonic may have destroyed egg fleets, that's not going to mean much if you're going to dismiss our laws of physics, which simplifies everything so that we're all working on equal terms. Maybe you could provide videos from Sonic Heroes and Sonic Unleashed.

It's all about priority. We use real-world science if it isn't contradicted by gameplay, lore, etc. Anyway, here's the video from Heroes, and the Unleashed example can be found here.

That is one weird Black Hole! The things that bother me are how fast it expands (there can’t possibly be enough mass for it feed on) and that it looks like a dark nuclear blast went off (could the floor be pulled up by pressure differential?).

It doesn’t collapse in on itself when it moves for one.

There could be enough mass, seeing as how it's near an entire space elevator tower and an entire planet-sized theme park.

There wasn't a "dark nuclear blast", but the mind control device aimed at the earth did detonate, so that could be the cause of it.

I made an account just to say this:

Game and watch, being a 2d being, cannot exist in a 3d world with any other fighter

Paper is flat, and G&W is flat. Both can exist in a 3D world.

Sonic couldn't use the chaos emeralds against Mewtwo. He would just use telekinesis to take them from sonic or make him go brain-dead before the could think to use them

The Emeralds often aren't physically present when he transforms (see the Genesis games), and Sonic's willpower (which would be enhanced by the Chaos Emeralds) would likely prevent the latter from happening.

Ganondorf could just transform into Ganon and kill anyone he was having trouble with. There is a canon timeline where he beat Link in OoT.

That timeline only occurs if the player gets a game over. It's like an alternate universe in the "many worlds" theory.

Mega Man cannot harm humans

Zelda is the incarnation of Hylia, so does that mean her attacks are holy?

More like a descendent, and it depends on the attack.

Captain Falcon can withstand mach speeds and can destroy galaxies with a punch

Actually, the explosion was caused by a separate force (IIRC it was some sort of reactor exploding).

Weak enemies, which Kirby is not.

I wasn't referring to Kirby in this. I doubt that Kirby could survive an attack from a spinning buzzsaw coming at him at light speed, however.

Doesn't matter, because he can.

As proven by?

Stacked lollipops last longer than Mega Mushroom + Starman. Mario has to switch out of the statue some time.

If I'm not mistaken, in NSMBWii, Mario can hold up to 99 Starman power-ups (as well as any other item).

Invincibility items for 40 seconds. Kirby has items for 75 seconds, plus Stone.

See above.

Kirby can destroy metal (Metaluns) with his attacks. Or, he could go Animal Kirby and dig out.

Destroying a tiny metal enemy =/= digging out of a rather thick vehicle. Speaking of, can Animal Kirby dig through metal?

Explosion is energy, which he can inhale.

He can inhale energy.

When has Kirby been shown to inhale an explosion that would otherwise completely engulf him?

The Metaluns touch the Warp Star.

What is the most powerful attack the Warp Star has survived?

Can Mario activate these instantly with no delay? The attack would take effect right after the Starman.

Yes.

Your logic is flawed. So o if there's one Charizard who didn't learn Flamethrower, Charizard can't use Flamethrower here?

No, that's not what I'm saying. Allow me to clarify. Charizards can learn Flamethrower, so Charizard can use it here. However, Charizards haven't learned Shadow Ball, so Charizard doesn't get it here. Charizard : Shadow Ball : : Shulk : shapeshifting.

He won't be holding Mario, he'll be holding Mario's leg.

Which will do what exactly?

Not sure.

If you want to prove the durability of these guards, you'll need to find feats of that attribute.

Should be easy on 124 MPH Warp Star.

Should be tough with Lumas, black holes, stars, etc. everywhere.

Smash. Isn't. Canon.

If we're going with Smash, that means only one Luma at a time.

We're taking the Smash character and applying canonical attributes. The Smash character has you play as Rosalina and multiple Lumas, and in canon, Lumas aren't limited to one at a time.

He's more than ten layers.

How tall is he?

Someone whacks him hard, and a couple tiny fragments come off.

How hard?

Still less likely than others doing it for him.

It's possible. It's unlikely for Kirby to have the maximum amount of Candies (at least, I would assume so), but he has them here.

Ether manipulation lore.

Such as?

There's no option for Rosalina to attack Kirby either, yet it's something she can do.

Because they're not in the same game.

His attacks aren't weak, provided he can take out beings of planetary power.

Would you like to prove their power, then?

It doesn't need the force of a black hole. Sonic hasn't displayed immunity to black holes. He could only outrun one, yet it would be difficult when Hypernova Kirby is chasing him at a high speed.

Actually, he remained semi-conscious even when he became engulfed by one, and if he had the Chaos Emeralds (which he didn't because they weren't tied to that game's plot), he likely could have teleported out. As for your second sentence, Sonic can run faster than 124 MPH, and he would also be able to outrun Hypernova (we see the speed it inhales at, and that's much slower than Sonic's top speed).

Since when?

Since he did it in the Galaxy series as well as the NSMB series (with Brick Blocks).

Ether manipulation.

Could you provide quotes of this please?

See above. Also, two punches from Kirby would KO Rosalina, while they wouldn't do much to a miniboss. More health.

How powerful are Kirby's punches? Do they match up to the hits that will deal damage to Rosalina?

 

[Nyehfarious]

I'm just going to leave this here...

 

[Munomario777]

I'm just going to leave this here...

Oh look, this again.

Well, Death Battle is honestly the Dragon Ball Z of crossover fights (how fitting, with his opponent in this one), and it does stretch abilities quite a bit. For instance, I couldn't find any source on the Warp Star travelling at the speed of light, and I don't think Kirby would be able to inhale that kind of projectile, or something as large as the enemy he inhaled at the beginning to get the Hammer power, or the projectiles that were shot at him. Of course, this would change with his Hypernova ability, but it can't be used in midair, and many characters can fly. Plus, I don't recall seeing that sort of hammer acrobatics in any Kirby games. (I could be wrong though; taking the information from the Internet, since I haven't played many Kirby games myself) That said, I do agree that Kirby is a rather powerful contender, but perhaps not as powerful as Death Battle would lead one to believe.

Kirby would have been dead from the beginning. He lacks reaction time on part with Majinn Buu. He doesn't have any abilities that match Majin Buu's. Fighter Kirby might be close with striking strength. The star rod wasn't the cause of destruction for a portion of the Moon. Considering Kirby's galaxy may be different from our own, chance are it's not the same moon.

Death Battle isn't canon.

 

[Crystanium]

I made an account just to say this:

Game and watch, being a 2d being, cannot exist in a 3d world with any other fighter
Sonic couldn't use the chaos emeralds against Mewtwo. He would just use telekinesis to take them from sonic or make him go brain-dead before the could think to use them
Ganondorf could just transform into Ganon and kill anyone he was having trouble with. There is a canon timeline where he beat Link in OoT.
If Marth having the Falchion means he's immune to everything but dragon/manakete attacks, does this apply to Lucina?
Mega Man cannot harm humans
Zelda is the incarnation of Hylia, so does that mean her attacks are holy?
Captain Falcon can withstand mach speeds and can destroy galaxies with a punch

Welcome. I hope you return. I need to address these points, however.

• Game & Watch can exist in a 3D world. Our universe has four dimensions: height, length, width, and time. Even if you don't think time exists, that's still three dimensions. We can draw two dimensions and even one dimension. In a two dimensional world, however, there could not be height, meaning Game & Watch would lie flat like a shadow. It makes me wonder if he'd be able to receive any damage now that you've brought up his 2D body. I doubt he'd be able to cause any damage, either, making him neutral against all characters and thereby placing him somewhere higher on the tier list.
• Mewtwo could use trick to take the Chaos Emeralds from Sonic. I agree on that. However, that really depends on how the match starts out.
• The names "Ganondorf" and "Ganon" are synonymous. He is called "Ganon" in WW, while in OoT, he's called "Ganon" in his beast form. While Ganondorf could transform into his demon beast form, he tends to fight Link one-on-one before doing so.
• Tell me more about Falchion.
• In battles where something like harming or killing a human would prevent one from winning, this part of a character's personality is lifted so that winning is made possible.
• Captain Falcon's vehicle can bump into walls and other vehicles, but it receives damage. The only time it won't receive damage from bumping into another vehicle is when it uses its attack. In the F-Zero anime, Captain Falcon didn't destroy a galaxy (more of a reactor). This is an example of post hoc ergo propter hoc, meaning that A occurred, then B occurred. Therefore, A caused B. Both Captain Falcon and Black Shadow were caught in a reactor explosion. It wasn't Captain Falcon's doing.

Paper exists in a 3D world.

Paper is three-dimensional. It's height is just extremely low, probably somewhere in the nanometer range or something. If you crumple paper, the height of it appears to change and ends up resembling a sphere.

It's all about priority. We use real-world science if it isn't contradicted by gameplay, lore, etc. Anyway, here's the video from Heroes, and the Unleashed example can be found here.

But priority doesn't matter when you have other worlds with different physics. I don't understand what's going on in the first video. The second video is more interesting, but I don't know how breaking through doors causes sudden destruction.

 

[Munomario777]

But priority doesn't matter when you have other worlds with different physics. I don't understand what's going on in the first video. The second video is more interesting, but I don't know how breaking through doors causes sudden destruction.

When those different physics aren't specified, we can use those from our world to fill in the gaps. Otherwise, we would have no way to compare many things from different universes.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Then Kirby inhales the explosion.

He can't. Exploding enemies' explosion can't be inhaled. And he would get vaporized from heat generated by Power Bomb before he can finish sucking it up.

See above. Also, two punches from Kirby would KO Rosalina, while they wouldn't do much to a miniboss. More health.

Thats ridicolous. Would you die if a cat would punch you (well, not really punch and more like slap)? Kirby is ridicolously small for this to be possible. Rosalina has this usual 2 hitpoints lifebar only in one game and only because she is a playable character here, like others. Other playable Mario characters wouldn't die in two hits either. Thats a game mechanic.

He's stout, no doubt. And tall, too. Ganondorf is 7'6" according to Hyrule Historia. Samus is 206 pixels tall in that image comparing her to the Ingsmasher. 206 px. is equal to 1.9 meters (6'3"). The Ingsmasher is 325 px., meaning it's 2.997 m. This means the Ingsmasher is at least 9'10".

Then Link and everyone in TP outside of Zant, Midna and Gorons are below 5'0 if Ganondorf is only 7'6 because Link barely reaches his torso.

Can you prove that? Perhaps you'll quote from the game, at which point I will then ask you to prove that, as you are taking the series' word, which has no say concerning other series'.

Thats just how it is in the game. In original LoZ, if you didn't get those Silver Arrows, you can't win. Game doesn't tells about why they do it (its a NES game) or that you need to get them. Same goes in aLttP, minus the bulls**t part. Master Sword is the only one that truly finishes off Ganondorf in TP and aLbW. I don't count WW since when you fight him, he no longer has Triforce of Power, which was the only reason he wasn't executed successfully, and i don't count games where he didn't die (OoT, Four Swords Adventures, etc). You can try hitting him with other weapons, but they don't kill him. Things like fishing rod and bug catching net are useful, but for other reasons. I think there was one more Ganon boss fight in one other game, but he wasn't resurrected properly. Thats just info obtained from boss guides.

It's scripted to be that way. You cannot defeat Mother Brain with anything other than the hyper beam. Does that mean no other weapon would be able to defeat her after she returns from having all of her energy absorbed?

You'd just take so much time doing so that it would be boring. You still can try shooting her and she will take damage. Ganondorf does not.

Is that so? Because the light arrows expose Ganondorf by piercing through his defenses and he's rendered vulnerable to the biggoron sword and/or megaton hammer. This lack of defense would make Ganondorf mortal for the time being, as he is a human, not just according to Zelda, but Hyrule Historia as well.

They still can't kill him. He survives the battle in OoT. He has this defence because of Triforce of Power and not dark magic of some kind.
He isn't a human (he is too big for a human, he has pointed ears outside of OoT, etc). He certainly was a mortal being, but not a human. There are no humans in LoZ.

That's because of his defense. We don't know what happened when Midna attacked.

She certainly used Fused Shadow and its not the first time she did so. Zant wasn't the toughest guy around, but he certainly can take a lot of damage and survive considering how many times you slash him with Master Sword and he still doesn't dies or looks heavely injured.

The Luminoth apparently worship and pray to the Light of Aether. It is U-Mos who prayed for salvation, but who would he be praying to? Prayer has its origin from the 14th century, "'from Old French prier "prayer, petition, request' (12c., Modern French prière), from Medieval Latin precaria 'petition, prayer,' noun use of Latin adjective precaria, fem. of precarius 'obtained by prayer, given as a favor,' from precari 'to ask, beg, pray'." - Online Etymology Dictionary - Prayer

So U-Mos is praying to someone or something. U-Mos and other Luminoths through their holograms will bless Samus, saying, "May the Light of Aether shine upon you!" Upon doing so, Samus' health will be restored. These two things demonstrate that the Luminoth have some religious or spiritual fixation on the Light of Aether. What this then means is that the Light of Aether is regarded as sacred, sacred meaning "connected with God (or the gods) or dedicated to a religious purpose and so deserving of veneration.

Next is the fact that the light beacon and light crystals use light energy. Considering the formation of the lightbringer, it too, uses this light energy. What's worth noting is that the lightbringer is described as generating a "life-giving energy". This can be seen with the light beacon and light crystals as well. It's also worth considering that the concept of souls or spirits is not foreign to the Metroidverse. This has been known since Super Metroid in the battle against Phantoon.

This is especially seen in Metroid Prime with the Chozo ghosts and their religious areas in the Chozo Ruins. We know that the Chozo have shamans based on one of the four busts that can be scanned prior to battling a Sheegoth and acquiring the wave beam. There's also the Chozo god of war in Metroid: Zero Mission where Samus must overcome the trial to restore her will power and acquire the legendary power suit.

The point is that the light energy from the light beam is not only made of light, but also is sacred and has life, qualities that can be found in the master sword. The master sword is sacred, but it has another trait that is made especially known from the force gems in the Zelda series. Upon collecting 1,000 force gems, Link's sword will be endowed with the power to repel evil. This means that force (or light force in the English) is what makes the blade evil's bane. If it was sacredness alone, then according to Munomario777, even light arrows would be able to kill Ganondorf. He doesn't believe that.

It does gives life (more like it restores it). But being worshiped does not gives it such traits. You can worship a statue, but it won't be any different. Its better to not compare Master Sword and force gems to anything in Metroid because magic exists in LoZ as something very common, but not in Metroid (its just ridicolously advanced tech outside of what those reptiles used).
Also keep in mind that Aether's atmosphere is deadly for the Ing and if light from it would be concentrated and shot into a possessed creature, that light would reach whats inside too. There also is a difference in light as in light emmited from something and light as in opposite of darkness (by "darkness", i don't mean lack of light).

 

[Nerdicon]

How powerful are Kirby's punches? Do they match up to the hits that will deal damage to Rosalina?

A tiny goomba moving at a slight jog can do damage to her. I'm pretty sure fighter Kirby can deal enough damage.

24. Kirby's Warp Star can go a max of 124 mph in this battle. Vote: 6-0 [For: Me, Dryn, Bagan, muno, Kirby D, Reckless]

WARNING! BLIND FANBOY RANT FOLLOWS!
That's it, annoying fanboy stubbornness has been activated.
Do any of you have really sound reasoning for your choice? I mean really?
@ Munomario777 If I remember correctly, your main argument is that Smash isn't canon. Yet at the same time you bring up Smash as an example where there is no lore example. Well it's the same case here, so why do you change your mind now?

@ ShadowLBlue @ Kirby Dragons seem to share the same thoughts, so I have a question for the both of you,

1)The speed of Kirby's Warpstar. Nerdicon and Kirby Dragons think it goes FTL. While it is called the Warp Star, outside of the Smash trophies their no lore indicating it can reach warp speed. It clearly never reaches that speed in-game, including cutscenes. As for it going between planets fast, I'm not sure how much stock we should put into that since it's on a map and not necessarily reflective of it's true speed. The fastest Warp Star in Kirby's Air Ride goes 124mph; I think that would be a good speed for the Warp Star to travel.

I think he did, but we can wait and see. And I'm aware of both (as wear as the lore thing) but we don't really have a point of reference for Warp Star's speed besides that one. I think going with 124mph is pretty fair medium. Besides, if I'm correct about Dryn' having voted for this rule, everyone but you voted for it, so it's enough to pass.
I don't think it's a game mechanic that Warp Star is often (at least twice) shown being shot down by attacks that he'd be able to dodge if he could easily control it going FTL.

I responded earlier with:

Not trying to be a jerk, especially since you're probably the only unbiased person here, but that doesn't really make sense.
"And I'm aware of both (as wear as the lore thing) but we don't really have a point of reference for Warp Star's speed besides that one" if that's the only reference point, shouldn't we use it?

And I stand by that statement, the warp star to my knowledge has been shot down twice, once by Nightmare who could keep up with the warp star, and another time by Kabula where he seems to have been showing off a little bit (look at that one handed warp star ride). This is further evidenced by the Starship being able to dodge those same bullets.
Next @ BaganSmashBros made his decision because the trophy information can sometimes be incorrect. Well before I take you seriously name examples from two other franchises where the information is incorrect or exaggerated. That's what I thought, especially since the warp star's speed is it's defining characteristic
Lastly @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 said that it moves so much slower because of air drag.

I've already stated why this shouldn't be the case (you should read that post) and there's no way that an 8 inch sphere is going to move at a snail's pace due to air drag when trying to move at FTL speeds. That's not really how it works.

How air drag works
I'll just leave these here.

 

[Munomario777]

A tiny goomba moving at a slight jog can do damage to her. I'm pretty sure fighter Kirby can deal enough damage.

That likely has something to do with the large teeth Goombas possess.

WARNING! BLIND FANBOY RANT FOLLOWS!

That's it, annoying fanboy stubbornness has been activated.
Do any of you have really sound reasoning for your choice? I mean really?
@ Munomario777 If I remember correctly, your main argument is that Smash isn't canon. Yet at the same time you bring up Smash as an example where there is no lore example. Well it's the same case here, so why do you change your mind now?

I assume you mean my Luma argument. This thread is about taking playable Smash characters and applying canonical attributes to them. In Smash, the playable character is Rosalina and many Lumas, so in this discussion, we use Rosalina and many Lumas as the central character, rather than treating the Lumas as summons.

How air drag works
I'll just leave these here.

The reason that Kirby wouldn't go at those speeds on earth is because of everything in the way. In this arena, it would be very easy to slam into the walls at FTL speeds, whereas in space, there doesn't seem to be much of anything in Kirby's way. It's not that he couldn't; it's that he shouldn't, if that makes sense.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

A tiny goomba moving at a slight jog can do damage to her. I'm pretty sure fighter Kirby can deal enough damage.

WARNING! BLIND FANBOY RANT FOLLOWS!
That's it, annoying fanboy stubbornness has been activated.
Do any of you have really sound reasoning for your choice? I mean really?

Because using info from a Smash Trophy is a bad idea. I have other examples of them being incorrect outside of Metroid trophies in Brawl:

• Darknut appeared since first game, not TP.
• King K. Rool's trophy says that Kaptain K. Rool is his brother, when actually, the Kaptain is actually one of the King's alter egos.
• Kass' trophy claims she wears a "jumbo ribbon" when she clearly doesn't.
• Candy Kong's trophy says her relationship with DK isn't confirmed but just rumored. Rare confirmed the two of them to be going out multiple times, and in Donkey Kong 64 Donkey has a picture of Candy on his wall, and Candy has a rug with Donkey Kong's mug on it, laid out in front of where the camera pans.
• The Fracktail trophy states it debuted in Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door, when in fact, his first and only appearance was in Super Paper Mario. It also stated that he attacked Mario on his own will, when in fact, Dimentio made him go haywire and attack Mario.
• On Walky's trophy, Kirby's Dream Land is said as being on the NES when in fact it was on the Game Boy.
• The Tornado Kirby trophy is incorrect, as it says tornado's appearance was in Kirby Super Star, when it's actually in Kirby's Adventure and Nightmare in Dream Land.
• The Bonkers trophy says that Kirby could get the Smash ability by inhaling him. This is not correct, as he only gives Hammer. Smash can only be obtained by inhaling Master Hand in Kirby & the Amazing Mirror.

I could continue, but thats enough. Even more, some of the info is wrong on KIRBY TROPHIES. Sakurai directed the games and yet info on things from his games is incorrect.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Sonic could probably knock the bottle out of his hand before he can drink it, and if not, his speed should allow him to stall Link out.

It's possible.

Yeah, a vote sounds good. If it's a game mechanic as you, Nerdicon, and KD think, wouldn't it be disregarded here?

No, I'm saying it's a game mechanic that it only covers one side of Kirby. If we were taking it at face value, it only covers Kirby's left/right (whichever part of him is facing the screen), so there's no reason it should block any attacks in a side scroller.

Include anything they can do/have done within the rules. Just because they don't often demonstrate an ability doesn't mean it should be disregarded.

Sounds good.

I think that would be good, and we should determine the amount on a case-by-case basis.

That seems like a good idea.

What do you mean by recoil animations?

I saw someone suggest that Sonic could be beat by hitting him with a strong attack and getting him in his recoil animation and then you could just keep hitting him while he's stuck in recoil.

As I stated above, the Lumas should be there from the beginning since they're part of the core character. As for Centurions, I suppose whatever amount is portrayed in Kid Icarus. I dunno though; I don't play Kid Icarus.

I realized my proposal was written vaguely. I was trying to ask how many can they summon at a time.
And I thought it was agreed she only started with one since she's called Rosalina and Luma?

Not trying to be a jerk, especially since you're probably the only unbiased person here, but that doesn't really make sense.
"And I'm aware of both (as wear as the lore thing) but we don't really have a point of reference for Warp Star's speed besides that one" if that's the only reference point, shouldn't we use it?

Well, like I said elsewhere in the post, it might be that the Warp Star (and MK) can only fly at warp speed between planets or when traveling high distances. We've seen the Warp Star in battle situations get hit by attacks it should be able to dodge if it was easily capable of reaching warp speeds in combat situations (vs Nightmare, in Meta Knight's Revenge). Do you have a better explanation?

It's scripted to be that way. You cannot defeat Mother Brain with anything other than the hyper beam. Does that mean no other weapon would be able to defeat her after she returns from having all of her energy absorbed?

I'm not trying to restart this argument with you so I know I should stay out, but the difference in those situations is lore consistently shows the Master Sword is one of only 3 weapons capable of actually harming him. I didn't make it to the end of Super Metroid, but to my knowledge there's no reason only the Hyper Beam should have worked on Mother Brain except A) you needed something really powerful to hurt her in that form and the Hyper Beam was the only weapon strong enough; B) it was scripted.

Is that so? Because the light arrows expose Ganondorf by piercing through his defenses and he's rendered vulnerable to the biggoron sword and/or megaton hammer. This lack of defense would make Ganondorf mortal for the time being, as he is a human, not just according to Zelda, but Hyrule Historia as well.

Not true, the light arrow is needed to ground him and render him immobile. As Ganon (his next phase), the Megaton Hammer can hurt his tail but only the Master Sword can land the final blow.

I oppose it. The destruction of what's on screen only occurs because the enemies can be seen. For example, in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, Richter Belmont can use hydro storm. If he begins to walk left or right, it'll follow him. You could try coming up with an explanation for that, but say Kirby's crash attack can vaporize enemies. He's at least producing 2.99 gigajoules, or almost 1 ton of TNT (0.71 tons). That would cover more range than what we actually see.

I don't think you need a ton of TNT to destroy enemies the size Kirby is destroying so I don't know if that example works. Plus, it's not like enemies killed by crash have some special animation showing they've been vaporized as opposed to his other killing animations.

You're right, I didn't vote for that. All I did was explain why the warp star would need to travel high hypersonic or FTL and said that the warp star in Kirby: Air Ride isn't the same as the one Kirby typically rides. I've simply been opposed to the idea that Kirby gets the warp star, otherwise, everyone else gets their vehicles (ignoring Star Fox characters and Captain Falcon, who are always in their vehicles in their games, though some Star Fox games allow being on foot).

Why? Kirby can summon his warp star. I don't know what other non Fox/Falco/Captain Falcon characters you're referring to that can actually summon their vehicle. FYI, I don't think Samus/ZSS should be able to fly her ship, but she should be able to call it for missile strikes.

@ Kirby Dragons
Unless Shulk has demonstrated the ability to control his body, he shouldn't be allowed to do that.

Honestly, the simplest way to make things balanced is by using the strongest incarnation from each game. While Ness and Lucas aren't given that luxury, it could be balanced in that characters with multiple incarnations, that is, many games, but restricted to the gear, items, upgrades from said game. For example, in a battle against Samus versus Ness, Samus could be downplayed to her NES version. I know it's been retconned with Metroid: Zero Mission, but that would be fair.

Yea, I don't like that but we'll see what others say. I regret proposing this "idea". It's too vague.

If the star from the Mario series or the candy from the Kirby series causes damage, then it should be allowed. We don't know what the barrier around them is made of, but its apparently capable of harming. The question is, how much damage is being caused?

Well that's the issue, most enemies they fight die in one touch, so it's hard to gauge. @ Nerdicon probably can tell you how much damage the invincibility candy does to bosses since you can store them in Squeak squad.

Knockback should be allowed. It's a game mechanic in that the game is programmed to behave that way. It's nothing like invincible frames. Some games lack invincible frames, or at least invincible frames long enough to overcome knockback.

I didn't say Knockback shouldn't be allowed?

I think Shulk should be able to perform his abilities that he's only performed. He shouldn't be allowed to use the same abilities as Zanza if he's never demonstrated it.

Shulk should only be allowed to morph his Monado into the closest thing his universe can replicate. For example, I doubt the Monado could morph into Samus' arm cannon. If there's a type of cannon he can create in his own game, then that would be the closest he can get to. He cannot perfectly create the master sword, but if he can make something similar that's within the realm of Xenoblade, then he could be allowed doing that.

If Shulk cannot manipulate his body, then he shouldn't be granted that ability.

Against, For and against.

No balance.

k.

Nope.

Me, muno, Dryn and Reckless For; KD against (4-1)

Let's not nerf her like this.

Cool with me.

Sí.

Yeah.

It's one of his powers, so yes.

Shulk copying Meyenth/Zanza skills/abilities: 2-2 (For: KD and Reckless; Against: Muno and Dryn)

Shulk manipulating the Monado into weapons: 3-1 (For: KD, Dryn, Reckless; Against: muno)

Shulk manipulating his body: 2-2 (For: KD and Reckless; Against: Muno and Dryn)

[quote="Kirby Dragons, post: 19001676, member: 263412"

Falchion only negates direct (physical) attacks. However, the Darksphere negates all damage for both of them.
\[/quote]

Marth doesn't get the darksphere. Where are you getting this from?

Anyway, my point about Potential Rule 26 (the balance one) and 28 (the recoil one) was misunderstood but in retrospect I think they're unnecessary and dropping them.
No one besides Kirby D had a comment on Palutena summoning her barrier, so I'll just go with the assumption it can be summoned as quickly as any of her other Powers.

Let me rephrase an earlier rule while adding two more:
-Should Rosalina/Palutena be able to summon as many Lumas/Centurions they want as a time, or just one? Furthermore, is there a total max they should be able to summon?

-Should Rosalina be able to start with more than one Luma?

-In Kirby Triple Star Deluxe, Archer makes Kirby invincible to all attacks even though the animation only covers one side of him. Muno believes it's a game mechanic and should only block attacks from that one side. Kirby D, me and Nerdicon say we should disregard the animation and it should still make him invincible.

@ Nerdicon , @ BaganSmashBros , need your say on the following rules regarding Shulk

Shulk copying Meyenth/Zanza skills/abilities (excluding recreating the world): 2-3 (For: KD and Reckless; Against: Muno, Me and Dryn)

Shulk manipulating the Monado into weapons: 3-2 (For: KD, Dryn, Reckless; Against: muno, me)

Shulk manipulating his body: 2-3 (For: KD and Reckless; Against: Muno, me and Dryn)

Also, I have the following to say about Kirby's shields:
@ Kirby Dragons and @ Munomario777 Nothing about Mirror's animation suggests he could project it around his warp star. Spark lacks a specific barrier unless you're referring to the weak shield it makes when you have a fully charged attack. The only shield that Kirby shows signs of being able to extend would be the Leaf shield and Ice shield. And the latter would probably affect it's flight abilities since it would be covered in ice.
Additionally, mirror does not ignore knockback so if he used it on the warpstar he could easily get knocked back.
Mirror is not invincible either (just in case someone said it was); Marx's mega laser busts through, as well as his black hole sucking up Kirby.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

@ Nerdicon , @ BaganSmashBros , need your say on the following rules regarding Shulk

Shulk copying Meyenth/Zanza skills/abilities (excluding recreating the world): 2-3 (For: KD and Reckless; Against: Muno, Me and Dryn)

Shulk manipulating the Monado into weapons: 3-2 (For: KD, Dryn, Reckless; Against: muno, me)

Shulk manipulating his body: 2-3 (For: KD and Reckless; Against: Muno, me and Dryn)

Against, for and for.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Against, for and for.

Thanks. BTW, why are you for him manipulating his body?
FYI, don't bother arguing with Dryn about Ganondorf only able to be hurt by Biggoron sword, master Sword, Silver Arrow, Four Sword and Megaton Hammer. Literally EVERYONE who comes frequently has tried and failed at this discussion with him. You. Will. Not. Win.

Also please vote on these:
Should Rosalina/Palutena be able to summon as many Lumas/Centurions they want as a time, or just one? Furthermore, is there a total max they should be able to summon?

-Should Rosalina be able to start with more than one Luma?

-In Kirby Triple Star Deluxe, Archer makes Kirby invincible to all attacks even though the animation only covers one side of him. Muno believes it's a game mechanic and should only block attacks from that one side. Kirby D, me and Nerdicon say we should disregard the animation and it should still make him invincible.

update:
Shulk copying Meyenth/Zanza skills/abilities (excluding recreating the world): 2-4 (For: KD and Reckless; Against: Muno, Me, Bagan and Dryn)

Shulk manipulating the Monado into weapons: 4-2 (For: KD, Dryn, Reckless, Bagan; Against: muno, me)

Shulk manipulating his body: 3-3 (For: KD, Bagan and Reckless; Against: Muno, me and Dryn)

 

[Munomario777]

It's possible.

Especially given Sonic's speed, time freezing, etc.

Speaking of, I have a proposal. Should techniques that require you to collect X amount of item Y (I know we're not counting extra lives, but as an example, every 50 Star Bits gets Mario a 1-UP) be granted at the start according to how many of item Y that character has at the start of the match, or no?

No, I'm saying it's a game mechanic that it only covers one side of Kirby. If we were taking it at face value, it only covers Kirby's left/right (whichever part of him is facing the screen), so there's no reason it should block any attacks in a side scroller.

This has been put up to vote, so I won't reply.

I saw someone suggest that Sonic could be beat by hitting him with a strong attack and getting him in his recoil animation and then you could just keep hitting him while he's stuck in recoil.

Ah, so you mean hitstun? I think characters should still flinch and such (if they're shown to do so), but be able to act within a reasonable period of time (for instance, if a character is hit and must land in order to act again, we should remove that requirement).

And I thought it was agreed she only started with one since she's called Rosalina and Luma?

And the character actually consists of Rosalina and many Lumas.

Shulk manipulating the Monado into weapons: 3-1 (For: KD, Dryn, Reckless; Against: muno)

To be clear, if Shulk demonstrated the ability to morph the Monado into things in Xenoblade, then I think he should be able to morph it into those same objects here.

Let me rephrase an earlier rule while adding two more:
-Should Rosalina/Palutena be able to summon as many Lumas/Centurions they want as a time, or just one? Furthermore, is there a total max they should be able to summon?

As many as they've been portrayed summoning at once.
Only if there is such a limit in the source material.

-Should Rosalina be able to start with more than one Luma?

Yes.

Also, I have the following to say about Kirby's shields:
@ Kirby Dragons and @ Munomario777 Nothing about Mirror's animation suggests he could project it around his warp star. Spark lacks a specific barrier unless you're referring to the weak shield it makes when you have a fully charged attack. The only shield that Kirby shows signs of being able to extend would be the Leaf shield and Ice shield. And the latter would probably affect it's flight abilities since it would be covered in ice.
Additionally, mirror does not ignore knockback so if he used it on the warpstar he could easily get knocked back.
Mirror is not invincible either (just in case someone said it was); Marx's mega laser busts through, as well as his black hole sucking up Kirby.

Out of curiosity, when has Kirby extended Leaf and Ice around the Warp Star? Also, I'd imagine that having a pile of leaves around you would make it rather difficult to pilot a Warp Star at over a hundred miles per hour.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

The Emeralds often aren't physically present when he transforms (see the Genesis games), and Sonic's willpower (which would be enhanced by the Chaos Emeralds) would likely prevent the latter from happening.

Skill Swap could take either Sonic's willpower, or his connection to the emeralds (it doesn't take the speed of Pokémon with a lot of it, so there's no reason to believe I would take Sonic's speed. Though, if it did take Sonic's speed, it would take all of it. Meaning, Sonic couldn't move at all).

I wasn't referring to Kirby in this. I doubt that Kirby could survive an attack from a spinning buzzsaw coming at him at light speed, however.

He's taken slashes at high speed from a Heavy Knight using a large sword.

As proven by?

No reason why he can't. Kirby isn't controllable during the takeoff of the Warp Star.

If I'm not mistaken, in NSMBWii, Mario can hold up to 99 Starman power-ups (as well as any other item).

99 total power-ups, or 99 of each?

Destroying a tiny metal enemy =/= digging out of a rather thick vehicle. Speaking of, can Animal Kirby dig through metal?

I was talking about Animal Kirby digging through the ground, not the vehicle. Though, it's not like the vehicle would be any more durable than the Metalun. The Metalun is quite thick, and both are made of metal.

When has Kirby been shown to inhale an explosion that would otherwise completely engulf him?

Explosions expand, so it would, at some point, be small enough for Kirby inhale. Sectonia's blast would also engulf Kirby, but he inhaled it.

What is the most powerful attack the Warp Star has survived?

Flying through Metaluns.

Yes.

Actually, he can't. While Mario equips the power-up, Kirby uses Mike, and there's no time for Mario to become a statue.

No, that's not what I'm saying. Allow me to clarify. Charizards can learn Flamethrower, so Charizard can use it here. However, Charizards haven't learned Shadow Ball, so Charizard doesn't get it here. Charizard : Shadow Ball : : Shulk : shapeshifting.

Guess what? No. The reason Charizards haven't learned Shadow Ball is because Charizards can't learn Shadow Ball. Shulk can learn shapeshifting, it's granted by ether manipulation, which he has.

Which will do what exactly?

Hurt Mario once the Mega Mushroom wears off.

Should be tough with Lumas, black holes, stars, etc. everywhere.

None of these can be applied at 124 MPH.

We're taking the Smash character and applying canonical attributes. The Smash character has you play as Rosalina and multiple Lumas, and in canon, Lumas aren't limited to one at a time.

And in canon, Rosalina doesn't have an infinite amount of Lumas.

How tall is he?

34 times bigger than a Cappy (16 inches), so 544 inches (45 feet).

How hard?

Quite a bit of force. It should also be noted that this was a pickaxe, meaning it's specifically designed for breaking stone.

It's possible. It's unlikely for Kirby to have the maximum amount of Candies (at least, I would assume so), but he has them here.

At least Kirby can get the lollipops by himself.

Such as?

"The Monado is a powerful energy blade that can manipulate the ether around it, and with it, change the material and immaterial shape of the world."

Because they're not in the same game.

Let me provide another example, then. Mario can't touch his belly in a Mario game because the game doesn't allow for it. Does that mean he can't touch his belly here?

Would you like to prove their power, then?

• Queen Sectonia was powerful enough to become the goddess of a planet.
• Nightmare was powerful enough to spread himself across the galaxy.
• Meta Knight was powerful enough to defeat the strongest warrior in the galaxy.
• King Dedede was powerful enough to defeat Queen Sectonia.

Also, while poking around, I managed to find this.
"Although if one views the Stage Select screen of the Gamble Galaxy, he/she can see that the final battle between Kirby and Dark Nebula takes place deep within a black hole that has seemingly appeared from nowhere."
Kirby is immune to black holes.

Actually, he remained semi-conscious even when he became engulfed by one, and if he had the Chaos Emeralds (which he didn't because they weren't tied to that game's plot), he likely could have teleported out. As for your second sentence, Sonic can run faster than 124 MPH, and he would also be able to outrun Hypernova (we see the speed it inhales at, and that's much slower than Sonic's top speed).

Since he did it in the Galaxy series as well as the NSMB series (with Brick Blocks).

Kirby took down 45 feet worth of stone.

Could you provide quotes of this please?

See above.

How powerful are Kirby's punches? Do they match up to the hits that will deal damage to Rosalina?

Considering Goombas can hurt Rosalina by walking (not even running) into her, yes. Kirby's punches can take out enemies more powerful than Goombas (they're smarter, more durable, and actually have attacks besides touch damage). Kirby's punch > Kirby enemies > Goomba > Rosalina's health unit.

Marth doesn't get the darksphere. Where are you getting this from?

Why doesn't he get it?

Thats ridicolous. Would you die if a cat would punch you (well, not really punch and more like slap)? Kirby is ridicolously small for this to be possible. Rosalina has this usual 2 hitpoints lifebar only in one game and only because she is a playable character here, like others. Other playable Mario characters wouldn't die in two hits either. Thats a game mechanic.

And we're going with health systems, so Rosalina is bound to her health.

He can't. Exploding enemies' explosion can't be inhaled. And he would get vaporized from heat generated by Power Bomb before he can finish sucking it up.

How fast is the Power Bomb's explosion? The exploding enemies explode quite quickly, with the explosion expanding instantly, so that could explain why Kirby can't inhale it. The explosion also seems to be made of electricity instead of fire, and Kirby can inhale fire.

 

[Munomario777]

Skill Swap could take either Sonic's willpower, or his connection to the emeralds (it doesn't take the speed of Pokémon with a lot of it, so there's no reason to believe I would take Sonic's speed. Though, if it did take Sonic's speed, it would take all of it. Meaning, Sonic couldn't move at all).

Skill Swap is affected by Protect, and presumably Super Sonic/Invincible Start. Also, there's no real need to have a "connection" to the Emeralds; they're pretty much an infinite power source, since they can also be used to power machinery and such.

He's taken slashes at high speed from a Heavy Knight using a large sword.

Oh wow, an eight inch tall sword.

No reason why he can't. Kirby isn't controllable during the takeoff of the Warp Star.

As in, when has Kirby projected the barriers around other objects?

99 total power-ups, or 99 of each?

Ninety-nine of each.

I was talking about Animal Kirby digging through the ground, not the vehicle. Though, it's not like the vehicle would be any more durable than the Metalun. The Metalun is quite thick, and both are made of metal.

The ground is made of concrete. Has Animal Kirby ever dug through concrete?

If I'm not mistaken, the Clown Car usually isn't vulnerable to attack in the boss battles where Bowser pilots it. I'm not sure on that, though.

Explosions expand, so it would, at some point, be small enough for Kirby inhale. Sectonia's blast would also engulf Kirby, but he inhaled it.

Once the Power Bomb got to Kirby, it would be large enough to go around the vortex and engulf Kirby. I'll ask this again. Has Kirby ever inhaled an explosion that would otherwise engulf Kirby at all angles?

Flying through Metaluns.

Which don't really have an attack besides touch damage. A good hit should cause it to break, like it does all the time in the games.

Actually, he can't. While Mario equips the power-up, Kirby uses Mike, and there's no time for Mario to become a statue.

I was referring to the Starman/Mega Mushroom.

Guess what? No. The reason Charizards haven't learned Shadow Ball is because Charizards can't learn Shadow Ball. Shulk can learn shapeshifting, it's granted by ether manipulation, which he has.

When is it stated that Shulk can learn shapeshifting?

Hurt Mario once the Mega Mushroom wears off.

Starman.

None of these can be applied at 124 MPH.

Because?

And in canon, Rosalina doesn't have an infinite amount of Lumas.

I never said it was infinite. There are many Lumas in the Galaxy games.

34 times bigger than a Cappy (16 inches), so 544 inches (45 feet).

Do you have an image for reference?

Quite a bit of force. It should also be noted that this was a pickaxe, meaning it's specifically designed for breaking stone.

How large was the pickaxe? What material was it? What speed was it swinging at? What other materials can this pickaxe break?

At least Kirby can get the lollipops by himself.

And Sonic can get the Rings by himself.

"The Monado is a powerful energy blade that can manipulate the ether around it, and with it, change the material and immaterial shape of the world."

What about this states that Shulk can modify himself?

Let me provide another example, then. Mario can't touch his belly in a Mario game because the game doesn't allow for it. Does that mean he can't touch his belly here?

Mario is a human with functional arms, and humans with functional arms can usually touch their belly. There's no such reference point for Kirby and the Miracle Fruit.

• Queen Sectonia was powerful enough to become the goddess of a planet.
• Nightmare was powerful enough to spread himself across the galaxy.
• Meta Knight was powerful enough to defeat the strongest warrior in the galaxy.
• King Dedede was powerful enough to defeat Queen Sectonia.

• How did she become the goddess of that planet, and what does that mean?
• Okay, and?
• Does he demonstrate these same battle tactics in his battles with Kirby?
• Does he demonstrate these same battle tactics in his battles with Kirby?

Also, while poking around, I managed to find this.
"Although if one views the Stage Select screen of the Gamble Galaxy, he/she can see that the final battle between Kirby and Dark Nebula takes place deep within a black hole that has seemingly appeared from nowhere."
Kirby is immune to black holes.

Do you have an image of this?

Kirby took down 45 feet worth of stone.

See above.

Considering Goombas can hurt Rosalina by walking (not even running) into her, yes. Kirby's punches can take out enemies more powerful than Goombas (they're smarter, more durable, and actually have attacks besides touch damage). Kirby's punch > Kirby enemies > Goomba > Rosalina's health unit.

Goombas attack Rosalina with their front. They also have sharp fangs on the front. I doubt that the average Kirby enemy is more durable than a relatively gigantic Goomba.

How fast is the Power Bomb's explosion? The exploding enemies explode quite quickly, with the explosion expanding instantly, so that could explain why Kirby can't inhale it. The explosion also seems to be made of electricity instead of fire, and Kirby can inhale fire.

Dryn provided videos a while back. The Other M variation is practically instant after the brief charging period.

 

[Nerdicon]

Because using info from a Smash Trophy is a bad idea. I have other examples of them being incorrect outside of Metroid trophies in Brawl:

• Darknut appeared since first game, not TP.
• King K. Rool's trophy says that Kaptain K. Rool is his brother, when actually, the Kaptain is actually one of the King's alter egos.
• Kass' trophy claims she wears a "jumbo ribbon" when she clearly doesn't.
• Candy Kong's trophy says her relationship with DK isn't confirmed but just rumored. Rare confirmed the two of them to be going out multiple times, and in Donkey Kong 64 Donkey has a picture of Candy on his wall, and Candy has a rug with Donkey Kong's mug on it, laid out in front of where the camera pans.
• The Fracktail trophy states it debuted in Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door, when in fact, his first and only appearance was in Super Paper Mario. It also stated that he attacked Mario on his own will, when in fact, Dimentio made him go haywire and attack Mario.
• On Walky's trophy, Kirby's Dream Land is said as being on the NES when in fact it was on the Game Boy.
• The Tornado Kirby trophy is incorrect, as it says tornado's appearance was in Kirby Super Star, when it's actually in Kirby's Adventure and Nightmare in Dream Land.
• The Bonkers trophy says that Kirby could get the Smash ability by inhaling him. This is not correct, as he only gives Hammer. Smash can only be obtained by inhaling Master Hand in Kirby & the Amazing Mirror.

I could continue, but thats enough. Even more, some of the info is wrong on KIRBY TROPHIES. Sakurai directed the games and yet info on things from his games is incorrect.

Maybe I should be more specific: how many examples of incorrect descriptions of the functions of items are there. It can get the origin or location completely wrong for all I care as long as the description of the item is correct I'm fine.

That likely has something to do with the large teeth Goombas possess.

Then why is there no biting animation? This is a next-gen game we're talking about.

The reason that Kirby wouldn't go at those speeds on earth is because of everything in the way. In this arena, it would be very easy to slam into the walls at FTL speeds, whereas in space, there doesn't seem to be much of anything in Kirby's way. It's not that he couldn't; it's that he shouldn't, if that makes sense.

...I agree whaaaat! Impossible!
That's actually what I've been assuming you all understood. If he went at FTL to move around he'd certainly crash. The ridiculous speed is only useful if he rushes directly at an opponent in a straight line (where there is no chance anyone could move out of the way). The reason he can't constantly move at that speed (like you said) is because the brakes on the thing are terrible, he'd overshoot his target. He would however benefit from moving a bit faster than 126 mph (the max speed of the mechanical warp star [achieved through hacking since it's near impossible to get enough patches] is actually 200 mph.)
You basically agreed to what I said, but you realized why moving at top speed at all times is pointless

Well, like I said elsewhere in the post, it might be that the Warp Star (and MK) can only fly at warp speed between planets or when traveling high distances. We've seen the Warp Star in battle situations get hit by attacks it should be able to dodge if it was easily capable of reaching warp speeds in combat situations (vs Nightmare, in Meta Knight's Revenge). Do you have a better explanation?

More like the thing has non-existent brakes so quick maneuvers (like suddenly turning to dodge an attack) won't really work. This is seen when fighting Nightmare who could keep up with the warp star and blasted it with a barrage of stars until he got a good shot (seems like he predicted where he would be, point Samus)

I don't think you need a ton of TNT to destroy enemies the size Kirby is destroying so I don't know if that example works. Plus, it's not like enemies killed by crash have some special animation showing they've been vaporized as opposed to his other killing animations.

To be fair these enemies can survive prolonged exposure to high voltage, high heat, and several tons of force being dropped on them. Not to mention that the chargeable Crash move is called Supernova, and while it's not quite on that kind of level it still rips apart the ground and generates huge shockwaves.

Well that's the issue, most enemies they fight die in one touch, so it's hard to gauge. @ Nerdicon probably can tell you how much damage the invincibility candy does to bosses since you can store them in Squeak squad.

I regrettably traded in the game when getting my 3DS, there's a section in Kirby Super Star that I could use it in though. It kills the mini-boss Mr. Flosty very quickly and I could technically get it in the random wheel against a main boss. It would take a few tries and I have no way to record it though.

No one besides Kirby D had a comment on Palutena summoning her barrier, so I'll just go with the assumption it can be summoned as quickly as any of her other Powers.

We can assume one of two things about the barrier

1. It can only be set up around her temple
2. It takes an incredibly long time to create/always creates a large barrier

One could be true concerning how she only ever uses it once. It could've been used when Skyworld was being attacked in chapters 3 and 14.
Two seems to be the obvious one, if she could use it at any time then why didn't she just make another one when Pit got too close? Then Pit couldn't attack her without ramming Palutena with the Lightning Chariot which would hurt, a lot.

@ Nerdicon , @ BaganSmashBros , need your say on the following rules regarding Shulk

Shulk copying Meyenth/Zanza skills/abilities (excluding recreating the world): 2-3 (For: KD and Reckless; Against: Muno, Me and Dryn)

Shulk manipulating the Monado into weapons: 3-2 (For: KD, Dryn, Reckless; Against: muno, me)

Shulk manipulating his body: 2-3 (For: KD and Reckless; Against: Muno, me and Dryn)

Yes, no, no

Also, I have the following to say about Kirby's shields:
@ Kirby Dragons and @ Munomario777 Nothing about Mirror's animation suggests he could project it around his warp star. Spark lacks a specific barrier unless you're referring to the weak shield it makes when you have a fully charged attack. The only shield that Kirby shows signs of being able to extend would be the Leaf shield and Ice shield. And the latter would probably affect it's flight abilities since it would be covered in ice.
Additionally, mirror does not ignore knockback so if he used it on the warpstar he could easily get knocked back.
Mirror is not invincible either (just in case someone said it was); Marx's mega laser busts through, as well as his black hole sucking up Kirby.

I've got two videos showing Mirror's prowess in the anime

I was clearly wrong about it being able to project different shaped barriers, but that's an example of the cloning. If Kirby used the star rod to give each one a warp star, then the opponent would have a problem.
Spark's puny little shield could block a lot of stuff in KSS so don't go scoffing at it. I feel like the best solution is one of these things

It's called a Prism Shield and it comes from Return to Dreamland. It's a seemingly indestructible shield on top so he could just point it sideways (or more accurately towards his enemy) while the warp star charged. He has other items like this but the only other useful one is the invisibility stone which grants invisibility and intangibility.
EDIT: For whatever reason the image isn't showing up here's a link to it.

 

[Crystanium]

When those different physics aren't specified, we can use those from our world to fill in the gaps. Otherwise, we would have no way to compare many things from different universes.

We don't have any way of comparing many things from different universes. Anyway, what you've been saying about Sonic destroying the Egg Fleet didn't match up to what you were saying. You said Sonic was traveling under the speed of sound, which wasn't the case for either. I had this impression that Sonic was destroying the Egg Fleet in one hit, but that wasn't exactly what happened, especially in the Sonic Unleashed video. I'm not sure what happened in that video, but Sonic traveling that fast looked pretty cool.

Then Link and everyone in TP outside of Zant, Midna and Gorons are below 5'0 if Ganondorf is only 7'6 because Link barely reaches his torso.

Based on this, Link would be 4'3", which honestly is not a surprise, as it's been brought up before based on the measurement in that one small building at Lake Hylia in OoT. Of course, the issue with this is Link's height as a child. You're free to take issue of Ganondorf's height, but that's Hyrule Historia.

Thats just how it is in the game. In original LoZ, if you didn't get those Silver Arrows, you can't win. Game doesn't tells about why they do it (its a NES game) or that you need to get them. Same goes in aLttP, minus the bulls**t part. Master Sword is the only one that truly finishes off Ganondorf in TP and aLbW. I don't count WW since when you fight him, he no longer has Triforce of Power, which was the only reason he wasn't executed successfully, and i don't count games where he didn't die (OoT, Four Swords Adventures, etc). You can try hitting him with other weapons, but they don't kill him. Things like fishing rod and bug catching net are useful, but for other reasons. I think there was one more Ganon boss fight in one other game, but he wasn't resurrected properly. Thats just info obtained from boss guides.

You're more than welcome to ignore the games where Ganondorf isn't killed, but please keep in mind in OoT he was sent to the Evil Realm. In TP, Ganondorf is sent away again into the Twilight Realm. What's worth considering is that the dark dimension produced by the darkburst pulls enemies to oblivion. This may be understood as "a state of being forgotten, especially by the public", or "extinction". While height seems to be the thing Munomario777 was concerned about, the fact that ingsmashers are made of some type of alloy would indicate that they're heavier.

You'd just take so much time doing so that it would be boring. You still can try shooting her and she will take damage. Ganondorf does not.

Actually, you cannot kill Mother Brain in the second battle with the original beams and missiles, since you're restricted to using the hyper beam.

They still can't kill him. He survives the battle in OoT. He has this defence because of Triforce of Power and not dark magic of some kind.

It appears to me that the Triforce of Power enhances the abilities Ganondorf already possesses. For example, upon his execution, Ganondorf is resurrected by the Triforce of Power. Not only that, but he appears to become physically stronger, since he escapes from the manacles that bound him.

He isn't a human (he is too big for a human, he has pointed ears outside of OoT, etc). He certainly was a mortal being, but not a human. There are no humans in LoZ.

Ralph Madsen, 7'6". There's people who have been recorded taller than that. Next, Ganondorf is a human who has become a demon.

"Ganon . . . This beast was once of the Gerudo . . . Once human. He was called Ganondorf! King of Darkness, ancient demon reborn. The wielder of the trident!!" - Princess Zelda, FSA

I cannot find the other quote from Hyrule Historia. Oh well, there's plenty of times in SS and TP where Link is called a human.

She certainly used Fused Shadow and its not the first time she did so. Zant wasn't the toughest guy around, but he certainly can take a lot of damage and survive considering how many times you slash him with Master Sword and he still doesn't dies or looks heavely injured.

I know what she did. We just never see what happens.

It does gives life (more like it restores it).

The description says "life-giving energy". I'm sure restoring it is part of its quality.

But being worshiped does not gives it such traits. You can worship a statue, but it won't be any different.

It makes it associated with religious purpose, thus making it sacred. Idols were made as a means of communicating with ancestors (ancestral worship) or the gods. Prayer was another means of communicating and worship.

Its better to not compare Master Sword and force gems to anything in Metroid because magic exists in LoZ as something very common, but not in Metroid (its just ridicolously advanced tech outside of what those reptiles used).

The only thing I was comparing was the master sword's force and the life-giving energy from the Light of Aether. While the Reptilicus used magic, both the Chozo and Luminoth possess psionics and quite honestly, the two aren't far from each other. Then there's the Cipher created by the Chozo, which is described twice as "a mystical lock". This would make sense in "relating to ancient religious mysteries or other occult or esoteric rites" (OED - Mystical)

Also keep in mind that Aether's atmosphere is deadly for the Ing and if light from it would be concentrated and shot into a possessed creature, that light would reach whats inside too. There also is a difference in light as in light emmited from something and light as in opposite of darkness (by "darkness", i don't mean lack of light).

Aether's atmosphere isn't deadly for the Ing, else there couldn't be any dark creatures on Aether. In fact, at the end of the game, the Ing warriors try to catch Samus, but fail to do so as Dark Aether is being destroyed. It's Dark Aether's atmosphere that's deadly. "Dark" in the sense of being evil is used to describe the Ing (dark creatures) and Dark Aether (dark world). I'll also throw out the bonus that the creator of Zelda, Shigeru Miyamoto, worked on Metroid Prime 2: Echoes.

"So the team arrived at the light world versus dark world concept for Metroid Prime 2. Pacini explained, 'We talked to one of the developers on Link to the Past, and he said, "Oh, this is going to be easy." Well, he didn’t say that, but he did say he was familiar with the concept and, yes, a lot of people thought we were just borrowing the concept, but as it was new for the Metroid franchise, we thought it would be good.'

"But they took a different tack with Metroid Prime 2: Echoes. 'We’d really tuned it towards a hardcore audience – you’re always worrying about your health,' contrasted Pacini. 'Enemies are harder, and in the dark world you’re always taking damage – and we felt that we made it too hard, that we’d moved away from the fine tuning of the first Metroid Prime.'" - Gamasutra

I'm not trying to restart this argument with you so I know I should stay out, but the difference in those situations is lore consistently shows the Master Sword is one of only 3 weapons capable of actually harming him. I didn't make it to the end of Super Metroid, but to my knowledge there's no reason only the Hyper Beam should have worked on Mother Brain except A) you needed something really powerful to hurt her in that form and the Hyper Beam was the only weapon strong enough; B) it was scripted.

That's because in Zelda, that's all Link is permitted. So I'm asking for the lore to prove it, since it cannot speak for other universes.

Not true, the light arrow is needed to ground him and render him immobile. As Ganon (his next phase), the Megaton Hammer can hurt his tail but only the Master Sword can land the final blow.

Ganondorf cannot be locked on until after he is hit by a light arrow. The biggoron sword and megaton hammer won't do anything to Ganondorf unless he's hit by a light arrow. We never know if the master sword is the only thing that can deliver the final blow because it's scripted to have Link use the master sword.

I don't think you need a ton of TNT to destroy enemies the size Kirby is destroying so I don't know if that example works. Plus, it's not like enemies killed by crash have some special animation showing they've been vaporized as opposed to his other killing animations.

The description for crash uses the word "vaporize".

Why? Kirby can summon his warp star. I don't know what other non Fox/Falco/Captain Falcon characters you're referring to that can actually summon their vehicle. FYI, I don't think Samus/ZSS should be able to fly her ship, but she should be able to call it for missile strikes.

Samus can use the command visor to bring her ship to her. If Kirby gets to use his ship, Samus and Pit should be allowed, too. It's not like these vehicles are conscious.

How fast is the Power Bomb's explosion? The exploding enemies explode quite quickly, with the explosion expanding instantly, so that could explain why Kirby can't inhale it. The explosion also seems to be made of electricity instead of fire, and Kirby can inhale fire.

I've been using 6,900 m/s because TNT is the most common explosive in the military and Samus was not only raised by a once war-oriented race, but also was part of the Galactic Federation Army.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Skill Swap is affected by Protect, and presumably Super Sonic/Invincible Start. Also, there's no real need to have a "connection" to the Emeralds; they're pretty much an infinite power source, since they can also be used to power machinery and such.

Protect ≠ Super Sonic/Invincible Start, seeing as neither of them are forcefields or anything.

Oh wow, an eight inch tall sword.

It's actually taller than that. Just about as big as, if not bigger, the spinning blade.

As in, when has Kirby projected the barriers around other objects?

No reason why he can't.

Ninety-nine of each.

Actually, this would be like the Sonic deal, where most likely, other characters collected those power-ups for him.

The ground is made of concrete. Has Animal Kirby ever dug through concrete?

He can destroy Metaluns.

If I'm not mistaken, the Clown Car usually isn't vulnerable to attack in the boss battles where Bowser pilots it. I'm not sure on that, though.

That's a game mechanic.

Which don't really have an attack besides touch damage. A good hit should cause it to break, like it does all the time in the games.

Actually, it takes several hits to defeat a Metalun. And is touch damage not a good attack?

I was referring to the Starman/Mega Mushroom.

Which were already used.

When is it stated that Shulk can learn shapeshifting?

Shapeshifting is a result of ether manipulation, which he has.

Starman.

was already used.

Because?

........Because they don't move at those speeds.

I never said it was infinite. There are many Lumas in the Galaxy games.

And Rosalina can't summon "hundreds" of them at a time, like you said earlier.

Do you have an image for reference?

Watch 14:57 through 15:05.

How large was the pickaxe? What material was it? What speed was it swinging at? What other materials can this pickaxe break?

Now you're just nitpicking.

And Sonic can get the Rings by himself.

Yet, he's very unlikely to do so.

What about this states that Shulk can modify himself?

For the 1,000,000th time, ether makes up life, and Shulk can manipulate ether.

Mario is a human with functional arms, and humans with functional arms can usually touch their belly. There's no such reference point for Kirby and the Miracle Fruit.

Kirby can hold things. Miracle Fruit is a thing.

• How did she become the goddess of that planet, and what does that mean?

She didn't become a goddess, she was going to, until Kirby stopped her. Being a god/goddess of something means you can control it.

• Okay, and?

Means Nightmare has galactic power, and Kirby beat him, meaning he has galactic power.

• Does he demonstrate these same battle tactics in his battles with Kirby?

He demonstrates most of them, plus some more that weren't used against Sectonia.

• Does he demonstrate these same battle tactics in his battles with Kirby?

Yes (Kirby defeated Galacta Knight too, by the way).

Do you have an image of this?

I'll get one later, I'm on a phone right now.

Goombas attack Rosalina with their front. They also have sharp fangs on the front. I doubt that the average Kirby enemy is more durable than a relatively gigantic Goomba.

Goombas deal the same amount of damage from the back. Not to mention, the fangs are only sharp on the top, and the top doesn't touch Rosalina.

Dryn provided videos a while back. The Other M variation is practically instant after the brief charging period.

What happens to the charge if Samus is attacked?

 

[Crystanium]

What happens to the charge if Samus is attacked?

Samus has to recharge. The charge takes anywhere between 800 to 900 milliseconds.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Falchion only negates direct (physical) attacks. However, the Darksphere negates all damage for both of them.

Marth doesn’t carry the Darksphere by itself and he only has access to it as a part of the Fire Emblem.

It's all about priority. We use real-world science if it isn't contradicted by gameplay, lore, etc. Anyway, here's the video from Heroes, and the Unleashed example can be found here.

Why are Robotnik’s ships so fragile? Considering he has a whole fleet of them he probably had them built out of cheap materials (how rich is he?). The 2nd ship was taken out legit but the only reason I can come up with the Mothership’s destruction was a planed self-destruct by Robotnik. I also noticed the fire on the deck so Sonic is rushing through atmospheric drag.

WARNING! BLIND FANBOY RANT FOLLOWS!
That's it, annoying fanboy stubbornness has been activated.

And I stand by that statement, the warp star to my knowledge has been shot down twice, once by Nightmare who could keep up with the warp star, and another time by Kabula where he seems to have been showing off a little bit (look at that one handed warp star ride). This is further evidenced by the Starship being able to dodge those same bullets.

How air drag works
I'll just leave these here.

Now you know how me and Kirby Dragons feel like when we’re hitting our heads against a brick wall on the Shulk issue against Munomario777.

How does Kirby crash the Warpstar when he has those evasion skills used against Nightmare and Kabula (seems like the only way to shoot the Warpstar down is with a thick screen of flak)?

You’re better off asking Dryn if you want numbers on Warpstar versus Atmospheric drag, because looking at that page makes my head hurt.

Because using info from a Smash Trophy is a bad idea. I have other examples of them being incorrect outside of Metroid trophies in Brawl:

• Darknut appeared since first game, not TP.
• King K. Rool's trophy says that Kaptain K. Rool is his brother, when actually, the Kaptain is actually one of the King's alter egos.
• Kass' trophy claims she wears a "jumbo ribbon" when she clearly doesn't.
• Candy Kong's trophy says her relationship with DK isn't confirmed but just rumored. Rare confirmed the two of them to be going out multiple times, and in Donkey Kong 64 Donkey has a picture of Candy on his wall, and Candy has a rug with Donkey Kong's mug on it, laid out in front of where the camera pans.
• The Fracktail trophy states it debuted in Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door, when in fact, his first and only appearance was in Super Paper Mario. It also stated that he attacked Mario on his own will, when in fact, Dimentio made him go haywire and attack Mario.
• On Walky's trophy, Kirby's Dream Land is said as being on the NES when in fact it was on the Game Boy.
• The Tornado Kirby trophy is incorrect, as it says tornado's appearance was in Kirby Super Star, when it's actually in Kirby's Adventure and Nightmare in Dream Land.
• The Bonkers trophy says that Kirby could get the Smash ability by inhaling him. This is not correct, as he only gives Hammer. Smash can only be obtained by inhaling Master Hand in Kirby & the Amazing Mirror.

I could continue, but thats enough. Even more, some of the info is wrong on KIRBY TROPHIES. Sakurai directed the games and yet info on things from his games is incorrect.

Other examples include:
The Black Knight’s SSBB trophy claims he wields Ettard (It is Alondite in the west).
Sothe’s SSBB trophy claims he is a swordsman when he only uses knives.
Lyn’s trophy from SSB4 claims she is one of the last survivors of the Sacaen tribes (She is one of the few survivors of the Lorca tribe).

Speaking of, I have a proposal. Should techniques that require you to collect X amount of item Y (I know we're not counting extra lives, but as an example, every 50 Star Bits gets Mario a 1-UP) be granted at the start according to how many of item Y that character has at the start of the match, or no?

Ah, so you mean hitstun? I think characters should still flinch and such (if they're shown to do so), but be able to act within a reasonable period of time (for instance, if a character is hit and must land in order to act again, we should remove that requirement).

To be clear, if Shulk demonstrated the ability to morph the Monado into things in Xenoblade, then I think he should be able to morph it into those same objects here.

No as that would give Sonic 100 Lives on the low end and 10,000 on the high end.

So people can gain traction in mid air?

Shulk is a swordsman, so of course the Monado is going to be in the form of a sword. If Shulk had to deal with an opponent that attacked from high above with ranged weapons he would have been forced to morph the Monado into a more appropriate form. Fortunately all airborne enemies have to close to melee range to strike and the long range enemies are kind enough to attack you from ground level or are on top of an easily accessible catwalk.

Skill Swap is affected by Protect, and presumably Super Sonic/Invincible Start. Also, there's no real need to have a "connection" to the Emeralds; they're pretty much an infinite power source, since they can also be used to power machinery and such.

If one doesn’t need a connection to the Chaos Emeralds, then what is stopping Mewtwo from tapping into their power (which should be easy for a top tier psychic Pokemon) as well?


@ ShadowLBlue When we start a new topic we should have a reference point for the various characters.

How far apart will the combatants start?

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Speaking of, I have a proposal. Should techniques that require you to collect X amount of item Y (I know we're not counting extra lives, but as an example, every 50 Star Bits gets Mario a 1-UP) be granted at the start according to how many of item Y that character has at the start of the match, or no?

I'd vote yes personally but I need a more relevant example. Is this about Nerdicon saying Sonic needs 60 rings to do Chaos Control?

Ah, so you mean hitstun? I think characters should still flinch and such (if they're shown to do so), but be able to act within a reasonable period of time (for instance, if a character is hit and must land in order to act again, we should remove that requirement).

k

And the character actually consists of Rosalina and many Lumas.

I'm fine either way.

To be clear, if Shulk demonstrated the ability to morph the Monado into things in Xenoblade, then I think he should be able to morph it into those same objects here.

I don't believe it ever did.

As many as they've been portrayed summoning at once.
Only if there is such a limit in the source material.

But I don't believe we've ever seen Rosalina summon more than one at a time, even if we've seen her surrounded by many.

Out of curiosity, when has Kirby extended Leaf and Ice around the Warp Star? Also, I'd imagine that having a pile of leaves around you would make it rather difficult to pilot a Warp Star at over a hundred miles per hour.

Well I didn't play Squeak Squad or Return to Dreamland, and my memory of Air Ride is fuzzy, but of every other game I've played you can't guard on the Warp Star. And it's not like he needs his hands to steer, so I don't think it'd be an issue.

...I agree whaaaat! Impossible!
That's actually what I've been assuming you all understood. If he went at FTL to move around he'd certainly crash. The ridiculous speed is only useful if he rushes directly at an opponent in a straight line (where there is no chance anyone could move out of the way). The reason he can't constantly move at that speed (like you said) is because the brakes on the thing are terrible, he'd overshoot his target. He would however benefit from moving a bit faster than 126 mph (the max speed of the mechanical warp star [achieved through hacking since it's near impossible to get enough patches] is actually 200 mph.)
You basically agreed to what I said, but you realized why moving at top speed at all times is pointless

More like the thing has non-existent brakes so quick maneuvers (like suddenly turning to dodge an attack) won't really work. This is seen when fighting Nightmare who could keep up with the warp star and blasted it with a barrage of stars until he got a good shot (seems like he predicted where he would be, point Samus)

We can bump it up to 200 mph.

To be fair these enemies can survive prolonged exposure to high voltage, high heat, and several tons of force being dropped on them. Not to mention that the chargeable Crash move is called Supernova, and while it's not quite on that kind of level it still rips apart the ground and generates huge shockwaves.

Are you referring to various Kirby attacks when say things like high voltage and high heat?
And can you be more specific on rips the ground apart, because technically a lot of characters here can make giant holes in the ground.

I regrettably traded in the game when getting my 3DS, there's a section in Kirby Super Star that I could use it in though. It kills the mini-boss Mr. Flosty very quickly and I could technically get it in the random wheel against a main boss. It would take a few tries and I have no way to record it though.

I'll take your word. I could also test it myself since I also have KSSU.

We can assume one of two things about the barrier

1. It can only be set up around her temple
2. It takes an incredibly long time to create/always creates a large barrier

One could be true concerning how she only ever uses it once. It could've been used when Skyworld was being attacked in chapters 3 and 14.
Two seems to be the obvious one, if she could use it at any time then why didn't she just make another one when Pit got too close? Then Pit couldn't attack her without ramming Palutena with the Lightning Chariot which would hurt, a lot.

1 is actually a great counter point I hadn't thought of.
2 I don't really buy although it IS a possibility. This is more likely an example of Tactical boss suicide or forced plot drama.

Yes, no, no

Shulk copying Meyenth/Zanza skills/abilities (excluding recreating the world): 3-3 (For: KD, Nerdicon and Reckless; Against: Muno, Me and Dryn)

Shulk manipulating the Monado into weapons: 3-3 (For: KD, Dryn, Reckless; Against: muno, me, Nerdicon)

Shulk manipulating his body: 2-4 (For: KD and Reckless; Against: Muno, me, Nerdicon and Dryn) REJECTED



I've got two videos showing Mirror's prowess in the anime

I was clearly wrong about it being able to project different shaped barriers, but that's an example of the cloning. If Kirby used the star rod to give each one a warp star, then the opponent would have a problem.
Spark's puny little shield could block a lot of stuff in KSS so don't go scoffing at it. I feel like the best solution is one of these things

It's called a Prism Shield and it comes from Return to Dreamland. It's a seemingly indestructible shield on top so he could just point it sideways (or more accurately towards his enemy) while the warp star charged. He has other items like this but the only other useful one is the invisibility stone which grants invisibility and intangibility.
EDIT: For whatever reason the image isn't showing up here's a link to it.[/quote]

Neither of those videos were really related to my point about it's shield but ok.
And it seems like those clones are illusions.
And I'll go test Spark myself but I doubt it blocks any serious projectiles from the top tier foes and the Pokemon.
Prism shield looks good, but it doesn't look like he can attack with it and it looks like it's still leave the bottom of the warp Star vulnerable.

Ganondorf cannot be locked on until after he is hit by a light arrow. The biggoron sword and megaton hammer won't do anything to Ganondorf unless he's hit by a light arrow. We never know if the master sword is the only thing that can deliver the final blow because it's scripted to have Link use the master sword.

Link only being able to kill Ganondorf in WW is scripted. You're free to attack him with whatever you want in OoT, but only the Master Sword defeats him.

The description for crash uses the word "vaporize".

They also vaporize with any attacks since they always explode upon death.

Samus can use the command visor to bring her ship to her. If Kirby gets to use his ship, Samus and Pit should be allowed, too. It's not like these vehicles are conscious.

Just so we're clear, you are arguing if the ship isn't integral to their characters, they shouldn't get it. Can I ask why before I put it up for a vote? And what Pit vehicle are you referring to?


@ Reckless Godwin 2.0
What do you mean by a reference point?

And we reached an agreement, but I honestly forgot. I want to say it was like 50ft? Not sure.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Based on this, Link would be 4'3", which honestly is not a surprise, as it's been brought up before based on the measurement in that one small building at Lake Hylia in OoT. Of course, the issue with this is Link's height as a child. You're free to take issue of Ganondorf's height, but that's Hyrule Historia.

...Thats rather pathetic for the hero who saved the world.

You're more than welcome to ignore the games where Ganondorf isn't killed, but please keep in mind in OoT he was sent to the Evil Realm. In TP, Ganondorf is sent away again into the Twilight Realm. What's worth considering is that the dark dimension produced by the darkburst pulls enemies to oblivion. This may be understood as "a state of being forgotten, especially by the public", or "extinction". While height seems to be the thing Munomario777 was concerned about, the fact that ingsmashers are made of some type of alloy would indicate that they're heavier.

He escapes from both after some time. That doesn't matters here of course. But first, he has to be pulled into it. He isn't a feather either with all of the armor he has and just his bulky body.

Actually, you cannot kill Mother Brain in the second battle with the original beams and missiles, since you're restricted to using the hyper beam.

I played SM. I meant if that part wouldn't be done. Your normal shots still damage her, just not by enough.

It appears to me that the Triforce of Power enhances the abilities Ganondorf already possesses. For example, upon his execution, Ganondorf is resurrected by the Triforce of Power. Not only that, but he appears to become physically stronger, since he escapes from the manacles that bound him.

Then he was a very tough guy even before getting it. I mean like REALLY hard to damage.

Ralph Madsen, 7'6". There's people who have been recorded taller than that. Next, Ganondorf is a human who has become a demon.

"Ganon . . . This beast was once of the Gerudo . . . Once human. He was called Ganondorf! King of Darkness, ancient demon reborn. The wielder of the trident!!" - Princess Zelda, FSA

I cannot find the other quote from Hyrule Historia. Oh well, there's plenty of times in SS and TP where Link is called a human.

Link and everyone around him are ridicolously short for humans though and have ears that you'll never see on a human (too long and pointed).
And should that count as going from a demon, to a human-whatever-they-are and back to being a demon?

I know what she did. We just never see what happens.

It certainly wasn't pretty. She most likely used full power of it while only fraction of it was used on Zant.

The description says "life-giving energy". I'm sure restoring it is part of its quality.

We don't see it giving life to anything that isn't already alive.

It makes it associated with religious purpose, thus making it sacred. Idols were made as a means of communicating with ancestors (ancestral worship) or the gods. Prayer was another means of communicating and worship.

Master Sword and co. are not related to anything religious. They are just blessed by gods or something. At least Master Sword was created by a god, Hylia, to defeat Demise, who pretty much is Ganondorf except a real demon and without any Triforce.

The only thing I was comparing was the master sword's force and the life-giving energy from the Light of Aether. While the Reptilicus used magic, both the Chozo and Luminoth possess psionics and quite honestly, the two aren't far from each other. Then there's the Cipher created by the Chozo, which is described twice as "a mystical lock". This would make sense in "relating to ancient religious mysteries or other occult or esoteric rites" (OED - Mystical)

It also may just be too complex for others to understand it. Like 99% of their (and other races like this') tech. Like Morph Ball and Power Suit.

Aether's atmosphere isn't deadly for the Ing, else there couldn't be any dark creatures on Aether. In fact, at the end of the game, the Ing warriors try to catch Samus, but fail to do so as Dark Aether is being destroyed. It's Dark Aether's atmosphere that's deadly. "Dark" in the sense of being evil is used to describe the Ing (dark creatures) and Dark Aether (dark world). I'll also throw out the bonus that the creator of Zelda, Shigeru Miyamoto, worked on Metroid Prime 2: Echoes.

"So the team arrived at the light world versus dark world concept for Metroid Prime 2. Pacini explained, 'We talked to one of the developers on Link to the Past, and he said, "Oh, this is going to be easy." Well, he didn’t say that, but he did say he was familiar with the concept and, yes, a lot of people thought we were just borrowing the concept, but as it was new for the Metroid franchise, we thought it would be good.'

"But they took a different tack with Metroid Prime 2: Echoes. 'We’d really tuned it towards a hardcore audience – you’re always worrying about your health,' contrasted Pacini. 'Enemies are harder, and in the dark world you’re always taking damage – and we felt that we made it too hard, that we’d moved away from the fine tuning of the first Metroid Prime.'" - Gamasutra

You never see the Ing walking around on Aether in their pure form since they are forced to use hosts for that. You never see them in pure form outside of Dark Aether.
Dark Creatures=x=The Ing
Dark Creatures=Creatures possesed by the Ing.
Dark Atmosphere is deadly only to creatures from normal world. Its kinda like bringing animal that was adapted to live in ridicolously low temperature to enviroment with ridicolously high temperature an vise versa. Except with no science involved.

That's because in Zelda, that's all Link is permitted. So I'm asking for the lore to prove it, since it cannot speak for other universes.

Ganondorf cannot be locked on until after he is hit by a light arrow. The biggoron sword and megaton hammer won't do anything to Ganondorf unless he's hit by a light arrow. We never know if the master sword is the only thing that can deliver the final blow because it's scripted to have Link use the master sword.

I think it was in the manuals and older games.

Anyway more proposals: @Dryn , @ Munomario777 , @ Kirby Dragons , @ Nerdicon , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @ BaganSmashBros
26. How should we find a balance between giving characters their abilities/weapons/skills at their best (i.e. in some games Link's Master Sword can't use the sword beam, but obviously we're assuming he can in this fight) with also making characters not have abilities they normally don't display (i.e. Meta Knight -outside of one or 2 cutscenes- has never been shown or given any reason to justify that he can fly at FTL speed, particularly in battles where his flight is actually rather slow)?
27. Should invincible fighters be able to do touch damage to other fighters?
27a. If so, how much damage?
28. Knockback is a real thing, but I propose recoil animations are counted as a game mechanic just like invincibility frames.
29. Since Palutena isn't seen creating her barrier on screen, and it's such a strong barrier, it should have the same charge time as the glam laser-16 seconds. (arguably her strongest move, which also requires charging, although it can be released sooner). She can still use non-offensive powers during this time.
30. How many Lumas/centurions can Rosalina/Palutena be able to summon at a time?
31. Can Shulk use skills he's not seen using but Zanza/Meyenth is since his Monado is equal if not stronger than both (referring specifically to attacks/abilities they are SEEN doing; hypotheticals about manipulating his body and Monado are addressed in the 2 following rules)
32. Can Shulk morph his monado into other items despite it not being shown in the game (Reckless, correct me if I'm wrong on that)
33. Can Shulk manipulate his body (does anyone have footage of him or Zanza actually doing so in a way that goes beyond changing into a monster human hybrid?)

Just use the best version of the ability as in how much damage, range, blast radius, execution/projectile speed/firing rate/etc that one version has.
Depends on how much damage it deals to those who don't die in single hit.
Yes, it is unless its just flinching (like in Metroid and Kirby).
Sure.
Until she gets bored.
No.
Yes.
Yes.

And we're going with health systems, so Rosalina is bound to her health.

Since when? Because then Kongs are bottom tier (they die in one hit), Wario is pretty much invincible, Mario, a fat italian plumber, takes less hits than a dog for no reasons and takes as much hit as Peach even though he should take more hits according to various things like physics and biology, Pokemons are immortal, etc.

How fast is the Power Bomb's explosion? The exploding enemies explode quite quickly, with the explosion expanding instantly, so that could explain why Kirby can't inhale it. The explosion also seems to be made of electricity instead of fire, and Kirby can inhale fire.

Not instant like most explosions, but still very fast.
You can start inhaling before explosion happens and you won't inhale it even after it happens. And that explosion is made of heat and energy. Mostly heat.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Since when? Because then Kongs are bottom tier (they die in one hit), Wario is pretty much invincible, Mario, a fat italian plumber, takes less hits than a dog for no reasons and takes as much hit as Peach even though he should take more hits according to various things like physics and biology, Pokemons are immortal, etc.

Yeah, I don't want to have any health systems, because they are inaccurate and a game mechanic. Unfortunately, that's the rule. Though, Pokémon have health bars, so they'd be excluded.
"Characters have health systems and are given the one that is used most often in their primary games. Excludes characters who have HP bars for health systems."

Samus has to recharge. The charge takes anywhere between 800 to 900 milliseconds.

Oh, well in that case, Kirby could jump and use Mirror Split (or whatever it's called) to hit Samus in the face and cancel the charge.

Marth doesn’t carry the Darksphere by itself and he only has access to it as a part of the Fire Emblem.

Can't he just take it out then?

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Yeah, I don't want to have any health systems, because they are inaccurate and a game mechanic. Unfortunately, that's the rule. Though, Pokémon have health bars, so they'd be excluded.
"Characters have health systems and are given the one that is used most often in their primary games. Excludes characters who have HP bars for health systems."

...don't remember when we voted for that...
Either way, why Rosalina gets health system from Super Mario 3D World or whatever when she appeared without it in more games?

Oh, well in that case, Kirby could jump and use Mirror Split (or whatever it's called) to hit Samus in the face and cancel the charge.

How hard can he hit? Because to cancel it, attack must be strong enough to cause her to flinch.

 

[Munomario777]

Then why is there no biting animation? This is a next-gen game we're talking about.

They're sticking out even when their mouths are closed, so it would likely still do damage.

...I agree whaaaat! Impossible!
That's actually what I've been assuming you all understood. If he went at FTL to move around he'd certainly crash. The ridiculous speed is only useful if he rushes directly at an opponent in a straight line (where there is no chance anyone could move out of the way). The reason he can't constantly move at that speed (like you said) is because the brakes on the thing are terrible, he'd overshoot his target. He would however benefit from moving a bit faster than 126 mph (the max speed of the mechanical warp star [achieved through hacking since it's near impossible to get enough patches] is actually 200 mph.)
You basically agreed to what I said, but you realized why moving at top speed at all times is pointless

To be clear, I still don't subscribe to the FTL Warp Star.

I've got two videos showing Mirror's prowess in the anime

I was clearly wrong about it being able to project different shaped barriers, but that's an example of the cloning. If Kirby used the star rod to give each one a warp star, then the opponent would have a problem.

The clones seem to be illusions (matching up with the term "smoke and mirrors"), and Kirby doesn't get the Star Rod.

Spark's puny little shield could block a lot of stuff in KSS so don't go scoffing at it. I feel like the best solution is one of these things

It's called a Prism Shield and it comes from Return to Dreamland. It's a seemingly indestructible shield on top so he could just point it sideways (or more accurately towards his enemy) while the warp star charged. He has other items like this but the only other useful one is the invisibility stone which grants invisibility and intangibility.
EDIT: For whatever reason the image isn't showing up here's a link to it.

That only protects Kirby from above, and he can't jump/float/etc. while holding it.

We don't have any way of comparing many things from different universes.

We can compare, for example, heat of different objects.

Anyway, what you've been saying about Sonic destroying the Egg Fleet didn't match up to what you were saying. You said Sonic was traveling under the speed of sound, which wasn't the case for either. I had this impression that Sonic was destroying the Egg Fleet in one hit, but that wasn't exactly what happened, especially in the Sonic Unleashed video. I'm not sure what happened in that video, but Sonic traveling that fast looked pretty cool.

The "without travelling at supersonic speeds" bit was referring to the Heroes clip, and the Rocket Accel is being used IIRC (which isn't stated to move at the speed of sound). As for the Unleashed clip, Sonic broke through multiple security barriers and other parts of the ship, causing it to explode. Note that the gunfire, explosions, etc. up to this point don't seem to damage the ship.

Based on this, Link would be 4'3", which honestly is not a surprise, as it's been brought up before based on the measurement in that one small building at Lake Hylia in OoT. Of course, the issue with this is Link's height as a child. You're free to take issue of Ganondorf's height, but that's Hyrule Historia.

In Ocarina of Time, Link is 5'7". This can be seen by entering the diving pool with the Iron Boots (the pool has a measurement scale). Using that height for the image provided, Ganon seems to be a bit taller than 7'6".

Protect ≠ Super Sonic/Invincible Start, seeing as neither of them are forcefields or anything.

Protect blocks most attacks for a limited time. Invincible Start and Super Sonic block most attacks for a limited time. (In fact, Invincible Start and Hyper Sonic have sparkles surrounding them like a force field, and Super Sonic has a golden aura of sorts.)

It's actually taller than that. Just about as big as, if not bigger, the spinning blade.

Actually, it seems to be a bit smaller than Kirby. My bad.

No reason why he can't.

It seems to be a rather tight fit.

Actually, this would be like the Sonic deal, where most likely, other characters collected those power-ups for him.

But it can happen. We're taking characters at their best possible scenarios, no matter how unlikely.

He can destroy Metaluns.

Can he burrow through concrete?

That's a game mechanic.

Or an example of the Clown Car's durability. If only he had added a top to the driver's seat...

Actually, it takes several hits to defeat a Metalun. And is touch damage not a good attack?

I'd imagine it would take a few hits to defeat something made of metal. Touch damage pales in comparison to, say, an explosive missile, a sharp arrow, a fireball, etc.

Which were already used.

To defeat Kirby.

Shapeshifting is a result of ether manipulation, which he has.

When is it stated that all people who can perform ether manipulation can perform shapeshifting?

was already used.

And he has more.

........Because they don't move at those speeds.

They seem to move pretty quickly.

And Rosalina can't summon "hundreds" of them at a time, like you said earlier.

Which isn't a problem if they're already there at the start of the match.

Watch 14:57 through 15:05.

Did you make actual measurements? If so, could you please show your work?

Now you're just nitpicking.

It's helpful to know what exactly the stone statue is being struck with, especially if it's a tiny Kirby-sized pickaxe.

Yet, he's very unlikely to do so.

Yet, he can.

For the 1,000,000th time, ether makes up life, and Shulk can manipulate ether.

For the 1,000,001st time, when is it stated that shapeshifting is always a direct result of being able to manipulate ether?

View attachment 47824
Kirby can hold things. Miracle Fruit is a thing.

Once Kirby touches the Miracle Fruit, it's automatically activated.

She didn't become a goddess, she was going to, until Kirby stopped her. Being a god/goddess of something means you can control it.

So what does being a not-goddess mean in a battle exactly?

Means Nightmare has galactic power, and Kirby beat him, meaning he has galactic power.

I beat someone in a footrace who was wearing ten jackets. Does that mean that I was also wearing ten jackets?

He demonstrates most of them, plus some more that weren't used against Sectonia.

Yes (Kirby defeated Galacta Knight too, by the way).

What exactly are these attacks, and how easy are they to dodge/counter attack?

I'll get one later, I'm on a phone right now.

M'kay.

Goombas deal the same amount of damage from the back. Not to mention, the fangs are only sharp on the top, and the top doesn't touch Rosalina.

I'd chalk that up to the game mechanic of collision being the same throughout (they charge at Mario and co. with their fangs in the lead).

Why are Robotnik’s ships so fragile? Considering he has a whole fleet of them he probably had them built out of cheap materials (how rich is he?). The 2nd ship was taken out legit but the only reason I can come up with the Mothership’s destruction was a planed self-destruct by Robotnik. I also noticed the fire on the deck so Sonic is rushing through atmospheric drag.

Watch the start of the first video.

Witness this invincible battleship, built by the hands of a genius. Its power... unmatched throughout the universe!

Robotnik is a genius, seeing as how he has 300 IQ and all. This also makes me doubt that he would blow up his own fleet on purpose for no apparent reason.

No as that would give Sonic 100 Lives on the low end and 10,000 on the high end.

Not specifically for lives; that was to demonstrate the mechanic. It's for, say, an attack that is available every fifty Coins, and you need to collect fifty more to use it again.

So people can gain traction in mid air?

No, but they shouldn't be inexplicably unconscious/paralyzed until they hit the ground.

Shulk is a swordsman, so of course the Monado is going to be in the form of a sword. If Shulk had to deal with an opponent that attacked from high above with ranged weapons he would have been forced to morph the Monado into a more appropriate form. Fortunately all airborne enemies have to close to melee range to strike and the long range enemies are kind enough to attack you from ground level or are on top of an easily accessible catwalk.

And has Shulk changed the Monado's shape to those forms in-game?

If one doesn’t need a connection to the Chaos Emeralds, then what is stopping Mewtwo from tapping into their power (which should be easy for a top tier psychic Pokemon) as well?

The fact that Sonic has them.

 

[Trisongs]

Dispite discussing who would be strongest in the game you have com ignored how ROB the robot is in the real world. Yes since smash bros wii U, other characters have been added to the real world through Amiibo they lack the powers they posses. However, Rob is an exception to this because his accessory if fully functional piece with TWO moving gyros that can be spun up if need be. If positioned in the right way Rob has the power to unplug a power cable and totally ignore each power and ability other characters possess in game.
With that said I believe that ROB the robot, the one without any real powers is the strongest out of all of the other characters.