Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Munomario777]

Zanza is a Monado wielder that can control his body. Shulk is a Monado wielder that can control his body.

As proven by?

I think it's pretty obvious that a Monado technique comes from a Monado only.

When is it stated that this is a Monado-only technique?

That Shulk can alter ether, and also that ether makes up life.

Allow me to provide another example on the matter, to prove my point. Greninjas can manipulate water (Water Shuriken anyone?). Greninjas are also mostly comprised of water (humans are 75% water, and being water types, Greninjas would likely contain more than that). Yet, they cannot manipulate themselves.

Cat physiology is what enables the cat to grow claws. Monado wielding is what enables the wielder to control themself.

Cat anatomy is scientifically proven to include claw growth, whereas I haven't seen solid proof that ether manipulation inherently includes controlling oneself.

Shulk can use ether manipulation.
Ether manipulation is a body manipulation technique.
Therefore, Shulk can perform a body manipulating maneuver.

When is it stated that ether manipulation is a body manipulation technique?

I'm also going to point out that time manipulation can only be used by two Super characters, like Super Sonic and Super Shadow. Sonic is just one person, so he can't use it.

Actually, I'm referring to the time freezing, which is commonly performed by only one hedgehog and one Emerald. As for the time travel. First off, the users don't have to be in a Super state. Second, if two Emeralds trying to use Chaos Control at the same time (which is the reason for this, yes) can initiate time travel, then I don't doubt that seven Emeralds (or Super Emeralds) could do the same.

lA) addressed below, although you left a counter point.
B) Shields are pretty much applied instantly, no?
C) How many can he hold?

A) Which I will also address.
B) Yes, they are.
C) He can hold up to five (since that's the maximum inventory space in Lost World), but weren't we going with one of each consumable?

Doesn't prevent it from stopping projectiles though. We can't say a bonus ability that's not covered is necessarily a game mechanic. And did you get that from the wiki?

It contradicts the explanation, and lore > gameplay. And yes I did, but I believe it has a source.

Fair point, but they probably assume you know it freezes time from actually using it in battle.

Then why do they state otherwise?

Mega man uses Flash Stopper exactly 2 seconds after this video starts. Can you say that, given Sonic has to jump, that Megaman's activation isn't quicker?

He doesn't have to jump; that's just a result of the jumping and Super Sonic being mapped to the same button in that game.

So you don't think it would work on Samus and vehicles?

It should have an effect on anything that reacts to a bright flash of light.

Ok, just so you know, Sonic's ring total comes from multiple levels in one game, not multiple games. (He never carrys over rings between levels but they all accumulate at the Black Market in both Sonic Adventure games, and can't carry these rings back to the action level).

I think Dryn was asking if Sonic is actually holding all of these Rings at once, or if the 999,999 limit was being taken from multiple Ring limits added together (i.e. he holds up to 999,000 in one game and 999 in another). I'd like to clarify that this is the former.

The Health system used in more canon games take precedence over HP used in side games (i.e. most games Sonic's health is based on his rings, but in fighter games he has HP bar).

Fun fact, in Sonic the Fighters, which runs on a health bar system, characters are actually losing Rings; they just happen to take the form of a health bar there.

I'm going to start to make a more accurate tier list of mine based on a match-up system. I'll give certain characters a ratio based on how many characters they can beat and how many they can't beat. When I have everyone I'll have my definitive tier list. It's easiest to start with the top tiers as they beat a majority of the cast making the process quicker. With the top tiers I'll only bring up the characters they lose to and specific cases of close victories
I'll start with Pit!

Spoiler

vs.
He only loses this one if Bowser has unlimited star rod abilities, but since the popular opinion seems to be NOOOO!!!! on that front Pit beats him
VICTORY
vs.
These two have the same abilities, but Pit has the 3ST and GST so there is a clear winner.
VICTORY
vs.
In these confined areas, the GST beats Arwings 100% of the time, no questions asked
VICTORY
vs.
He can't really deal with the bullet storm (arrow storm?) that the GST creates
VICTORY
vs.
Pit may be inherently holy but as the late Water Sage taught us, that's clearly not enough. His spread of Holy Weaponry is pretty limted, the 3ST being his best option but Ganon has more than an effective arsenal to deal with it
DEFEAT
vs.
A lot of Kirby's abilities walk all over Pit, in particular Mirror and Hypernova really shut down Pit's options.
Combined with the Warp Star, doesn't stand a chance.
DEFEAT
vs.
This was a hard call, but Pit really can't compete with 3 days of invincibility. With no way to heal, Pit would eventually lose
DEFEAT
vs.
I've explained this one. Samus wins
DEFEAT
vs.
Palutena may be his "superior", but can she really compete with the likes of the GST? Pit beat Medusa who has very similar power to Palutena so this shouldn't be too hard
VICTORY
vs.
Haha! You lose!
DEFEAT
vs.
3fast5you
DEFEAT
vs.
Another hard call, but can Shulk effectively counter someone moving at 1350 km per hour? Not to mention that most of Shulk's arsenal isn't made for fighting distant enemies. I would also say could he beat a giant mech, buuuuuuuut...
VICTORY
vs.
With him flying at least similar speed to the warp star on the Milky Way Wishes map, as well as having a decent spread of attacks, Pit would have a hard time. I honestly think MK's speed pushes this over the edge in Meta Knight's favor
DEFEAT

So tallying up his win loss ratio, Pit has a 43:7 win/loss rate. Keep in mind that I don't count Miis when doing this tally. Dark Pit (since he is so similar) I'll do as well, and I doubt he could beat Palutena with no godly assistance and no Sacred Treasure making his rate 41:9.
If there are any match-ups you guys feel need to be detailed just tell me. Now for voting!

Good idea! I might do one later today (perhaps for Sonic or something).

I don't have a specific post, but mini-games should not have the same priority as the main canon. That's ridiculous.
...That's about it actually, I didn't have much to say.

This was already voted on and passed. Only mini games/side quests that have connections to the main story/canon are allowed (for instance, sword training from Zelda is whereas Megaton Punch is not). Now we're voting on whether or not the Ring count of 999,999 is allowed for Sonic (assuming that Chao Garden is canon due to the connections between it and the main story mode).

 

[Diddy Kong]

No; of course, I never made the claim that Mega Man is immune to time freezing. Time stopper makes it impossible for Mega Man to fire projectiles, but he does have incredible strength to prevent Dr. Wily's castle from crushing him. I think that was in Mega Man 5. Flash stopper stops projectiles and enemies without eyes, so it's another useful time freezing ability.



Zamus has the paralyzer. I've already spelled that out as being a wireless electroshock gun or plasma taser. An uncharged shot from the paralyzer will envelope a space pirate and prevent it from moving for three seconds. I'm not sure how long a charged shot would be. Zamus also retains the ability to use sense move, so this ability is not simply an ability used only by the power suit.

If the peanut popgun is firing peanuts, then how is it going to harm Samus? Let's assume it fired a peanut at the speed of sound. A typical peanut weighs 0.4 to 0.5 grams, according to Wikipedia. There's two in a pod, so that's 1 g., but the pod must also weigh something, so let's say 2 g. for the peanuts and the pod. That would mean one "bullet" is producing 0.686 newtons, or approximately 0.8 to 1.4 times the peak force applied to push down a key on a computer keyboard. That's not going to hurt Samus. Of course, that was assuming the peanut projectile was flying at the speed of sound.

I'm not sure how powerful orange grenades, rocket barrel, or the electric guitar attack is.

The peanuts are stronger than regular peanuts of course, as they damage enemies the same as coconuts being shot at them. And they are able to take out enemies like Zingers, who the Kongs normally only could kill with barrels (due to their spikes). I doubt real life physics would apply in these sorts of things anyway, and as I stated before, the weapons the Kongs used in DK64 where orignally meant to be real life guns.

Whatever the cause, these guns are actually harmful to the Kremlings, as opposed to the Paralyzer being harmful to the Space Pirates. And he's pretty damn good at shooting with them, if the DK Rap is any indication.

1.55 Diddy's part starts, watch the "he's one tough Kong" part to understand why he's one tough Kong.

If you insist in using real life physics however, you'll known that a chimpansee is naturally much, MUCH more stronger than any human ever would hope to be.

I think that Diddy's skill combining with his natural agility and strenght would proof to be very dangerous to Zero Suit Samus. He'd have her under constant fire with the Peanut Popguns and Orange Grenades and he'd completely maul her up close if given the chance. The Kongs usually also do this as their primary way of finishing off, especially in the Returns series, but DK has also been doing this since Jungle Beat.

I think Diddy vs Zero Suit Samus could be a close match, but I feel that Diddy's weaponary is just more dangerous than Zero Suit Samus's and that's the deal breaker for me.

In my opinion, Diddy's strenghts:

-Strong up close fighter with Simian Slam, jumping attacks, launching himself as projectile and cartwheel
-Very agile as specially shown in the DKC2 boss battle against Kaptain K.Rool
-Extremely creative fighter, will relly on using his surroundings a lot more than other fighters and will attack whenever he stuns his enemies
-Strong weaponary with seeking Peanut Popguns, Orange Grenades and Guitar Guzamp
-The Rocket Barrel giving him great aerial coverage and being a great way to stay out of trouble too much
-Going Bananas making him invinsible for a short period of time
-Using bananas to heal himself

I could see Diddy putting Zero Suit Samus under constant fire, and he might have problems hitting her, sure. But when he does and he is up close, expect Zero Suit Samus to be attacked physically by him. And if problems arise, Diddy could go skyward, heal himself, and play it safe by 'camping'. I don't fear Zero Suit Samus's paralyser so much, because the Metroid games never show of ZSS's physical ability, she's always showing her more powerful artibutes whenever she's in her Power Suit. If she has no primary way of attacking Diddy, she'll be teared appart by him.

 

[Crystanium]

The peanuts are stronger than regular peanuts of course, as they damage enemies the same as coconuts being shot at them. And they are able to take out enemies like Zingers, who the Kongs normally only could kill with barrels (due to their spikes). I doubt real life physics would apply in these sorts of things anyway, and as I stated before, the weapons the Kongs used in DK64 where orignally meant to be real life guns.

What they were originally supposed to be and what they are now is entirely different. Still, it's true that the damage done is more harmful than if a peanut, shell and all was fired at you. The only other explanation is their size compared to actual peanuts.

Whatever the cause, these guns are actually harmful to the Kremlings, as opposed to the Paralyzer being harmful to the Space Pirates. And he's pretty damn good at shooting with them, if the DK Rap is any indication.

Zebesians aren't soft. Their exoskeleton is harder and capable of withstanding several shots from the arm cannon, as well as withstanding extreme temperatures. (It's nice that the Metroid series takes convection into consideration, unlike most Nintendo games.) That the cyborg Zebes elite pirates can be stunned for three seconds by an uncharged shot from the paralyzer says something. (If it doesn't, those are the strongest space pirates in MOM, which take a number of hits to kill with Samus' usual beams.) Also, these space pirates fire beams that resemble the wave beam and if Zamus gets hit by one, she doesn't die. Perhaps her energy shield is still active. It's that way in MZM, though in MOM, she only is given 1 energy tank worth of energy.

1.55 Diddy's part starts, watch the "he's one tough Kong" part to understand why he's one tough Kong.

If you insist in using real life physics however, you'll known that a chimpansee is naturally much, MUCH more stronger than any human ever would hope to be.

Of course, but Samus isn't your average human, having been trained by the Chozo for combat and integrated with their DNA at the age of three.

I think that Diddy's skill combining with his natural agility and strenght would proof to be very dangerous to Zero Suit Samus. He'd have her under constant fire with the Peanut Popguns and Orange Grenades and he'd completely maul her up close if given the chance. The Kongs usually also do this as their primary way of finishing off, especially in the Returns series, but DK has also been doing this since Jungle Beat.

Zamus' reaction time will aid her and she's able to avoid multiple attacks from space pirates using sense move. If he got close to Zamus, she'd just counter his attacks.

I think Diddy vs Zero Suit Samus could be a close match, but I feel that Diddy's weaponary is just more dangerous than Zero Suit Samus's and that's the deal breaker for me.

Zamus has years of combat experience from an early age of three. When she left the Chozo at Zebes, she went to work for the Galactic Federation Army. Diddy Kong doesn't have that kind of combat experience.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Zamus' reaction time will aid her and she's able to avoid multiple attacks from space pirates using sense move. If he got close to Zamus, she'd just counter his attacks.

And she can also dodge Zebesians' very fast roundhouse kicks (performed while running, have barely any start up or any kind of warning, i have animation of them in case you doubt their speed) too.

 

[Diddy Kong]

While Diddy didn't receive Chozo training, he shouldn't be considered as 'untrained' either. In fact, DK did train and raise Diddy prior to the events of Donkey Kong Country. And the manual mentions Diddy's a real natural, who could one day exceed DK.

Living in the jungle isn't an easy life either btw. And you'll notice that no sane man, trained soldier or not, would ever want to face a chimpansee in combat.

I get ZSS is agile, and yes, sence moves make her somewhat harder to hit but I doubt she'd be able to shrug off Diddy as easily as you'd say. If she'd actually have the whip as in Smash, it'd be another thing as it acts like a lite-Grapple Beam, but up close, toe to toe, I would still give Diddy the advantage. We can agree to disagree on this matter though.

And as stated before, Diddy's peanuts hit as hard as DK's coconuts, so despite looking like funky toys, they are formidable weapons. It's videogame logic. I'm not sure why you wouldn't take that into consideration given that Metroid (whilst being more realisitic than DKC) isn't exactly "non-fiction" or without fantasy aspects either. If you can imagine actual Ice Missiles, the Morph Ball or Screw Attack actually working realistically... imagine peanuts shot from a wooden gun killing large crocodile-like creatures to please... This is a reason why I don't like to adress you regarding Samus, as you seem to mix up realistic physics with Metroid's physics to Samus's advantage ver more "fantasy-based" characters from series as Pokémon, Mario, DKC, Zelda and Kirby. Am not saying you do this purposely, but I tend to view your posts as such regarding Samus.

Also, ZSS in ZM has the same Energy Tanks as Power Suit Samus but she takes more damage still if she's hit. So her durability really takes a heavy blow without suit (obviously). If she only has one energy tank though, she'll certainly lose.

Diddy is no in-experienced fighter. I'd say that without the RPG games, he could take on even Mario. Then again, that's just me.

Paralysing a Space Pirate is of course not an every day task, but I still fail to see how Zero Suit Samus would actually, effectively harm Diddy. Especially as she doesn't have the greatest range with it, and Diddy is flying around with his Rocket Barrel. If she'd hit Diddy whilst flying he might crash however, but am not seeing how.

 

[Munomario777]

VS:

Spoiler

: One metal-ripping Spin Dash should do the trick.
VICTORY
: The Clown Car Jr.'s flight can be dealt with via Super Sonic's flight, and nothing else is a concern really.
VICTORY
: The Blue Falcon is fast, but Sonic is faster.
VICTORY
: 2fast4u
VICTORY
: Flight and the weapons are a non-issue for Super Sonic.
VICTORY
: Sonic towers over him, and his tiny hammer shouldn't be an issue.
VICTORY
: Just a monkey with a jet pack and peanut guns.
VICTORY
: An ape without a jet pack and peanut guns.
VICTORY
: Just a doctor that can jump.
VICTORY
: A dog, a duck, and a guy with a Zapper. So threatening.
VICTORY
/: Super Sonic can tear through entire space fleets with his face; one Arwing is no biggie.
VICTORY
: The sacred sword Caliburn should end this quickly, especially when combined with the god-crafted Master Emerald.
VICTORY
: Sonic could just rip through him like a piece of paper.
VICTORY
: Sonic is afraid of water, but he can still easily win this fight (especially with the Bubble Shield).
VICTORY
: Just a guy with a sword that's good at fighting with a sword.
VICTORY
: One sharp spine and the Puff is getting deflated.
VICTORY
: He's eight inches tall, and most of his attacks wouldn't do too much damage to Sonic (let alone Super Sonic). Hypernova is countered by sheer speed or Chaos Control, and even the Warp Star is too slow for Sonic.
VICTORY
: Just a boxer. Yeah.
VICTORY
: Eleven days of invincibility > three, and even without that Ring count, his speed would allow him to easily stall Link out.
VICTORY
: He has the aura, but that doesn't help him against an invincible hedgehog.
VICTORY
: Coming out of nowhere and psychic powers won't be enough to win this.
VICTORY
: "I cannot lose," Sonic says.
VICTORY
: A ghost vacuum and thunder powers are nothing compared to Sonic's abilities.
VICTORY
: I've already analyzed this in the past. Basically, speed and Super Sonic dash any hopes of Mario dealing damage here.
VICTORY
: Hey look, another ordinary swordsman!
VICTORY
: Super Fighting Robots lose to Invincible Speedy Hedgehogs.
VICTORY
: A tiny sword, teleportation, and such aren't quite going to do the trick here.
VICTORY
: Psychic attacks are negated by Super Sonic, and mind control and such are negated by willpower (which would only be further enhanced by the Emeralds).
VICTORY
: Just a kid with psychic attacks, a yo-yo, and a baseball bat.
VICTORY
: He's tiny, and so is his army of pl-ants (:L).
VICTORY
: While her Powers are impressive, Super Sonic is invincible and all.
VICTORY
: No amount of appetite, Power Pellets, or fire hydrants will help him here.
VICTORY
: There's a reason that she always gets kidnapped, you know.
VICTORY
: This tiny yellow rat is beaten by the less tiny yellow hedgehog.
VICTORY
: The Great Sacred Treasure is no biggie; Sonic has already taken on tons of giant robots before.
VICTORY
: A toy robot. How threatening.
VICTORY
: You don't have to be an ordinary swordsman to be defeated by an invincible hedgehog.
VICTORY
: Light Speed Attack takes care of the Luma army, and Sonic has outrun black holes before.
VICTORY
: Eleven days of invincibility trumps robotic suit.
VICTORY
/: Alter egos and a bit of magic aren't enough to take Sonic down.
VICTORY
: The only think he'll be really feeling is a supersonic hedgehog ramming into his face.
VICTORY
: Composite Link with less stuff.
VICTORY
: Just a regular mayor with an axe. While that may be terrifying, it won't do much here.
VICTORY
: Passing gas won't do much good here.
VICTORY
: Wii Fit winning this would be a huge stretch.
VICTORY
: Yoshi trying to swallow Sonic results in a lacerated tongue, stomach, and esophagus.
VICTORY

And there you have it, folks! A 46:0 win-loss ratio. Incredible! Of course, if you disagree with one of my choices or want more detail, let me know!

 

[Crystanium]

While Diddy didn't receive Chozo training, he shouldn't be considered as 'untrained' either. In fact, DK did train and raise Diddy prior to the events of Donkey Kong Country. And the manual mentions Diddy's a real natural, who could one day exceed DK.

Even if Diddy will surpass DK one day, it doesn't resolve the problem that Samus has more experience. If we assume Samus is 25 years old, then that's 22 years of experience under her belt.

Living in the jungle isn't an easy life either btw. And you'll notice that no sane man, trained soldier or not, would ever want to face a chimpansee in combat.

It wouldn't be easy for a human, perhaps. Non-human animals have their own way of living in the region they're born in. They have their parents to raise them and the instincts to behave the way they do. Fortunately, Samus is not a man. I could equally say no sane man, trained or not, would ever want to face one of these.

And as stated before, Diddy's peanuts hit as hard as DK's coconuts, so despite looking like funky toys, they are formidable weapons.

That makes no sense. A coconut would cause more damage than a peanut because it has more mass. If both projectiles are even remotely the same in damage output, then those peanuts must be denser or those coconuts aren't as dense. Either way, are you comparing these projectiles to the projectiles fired by the space pirates?

It's videogame logic. I'm not sure why you wouldn't take that into consideration given that Metroid (whilst being more realisitic than DKC) isn't exactly "non-fiction" or without fantasy aspects either. If you can imagine actual Ice Missiles, the Morph Ball or Screw Attack actually working realistically... imagine peanuts shot from a wooden gun killing large crocodile-like creatures to please... This is a reason why I don't like to adress you regarding Samus, as you seem to mix up realistic physics with Metroid's physics to Samus's advantage ver more "fantasy-based" characters from series as Pokémon, Mario, DKC, Zelda and Kirby. Am not saying you do this purposely, but I tend to view your posts as such regarding Samus.

I know the Metroid series isn't without its unrealistic aspects as well, but that's where I try to make sense of it. I do take into consideration the physics of Pokemon, Mario, DKC, Zelda, and Kirby. Everything I do for the Metroid series, I do for other series' as well. For example, with regard to Kirby's spark ability, I said that looks similar to Samus' plasma beam in her 2D games. I was supportive.

I'm just not sure how peanuts are supposed to actually harm anyone, even if it was fired at the speed of sound. (It'd likely burn up at that point.) The only other explanation I can think of is that these peanuts aren't actually peanuts. They just take the shape of one. They wouldn't be good at piercing their target, due to their geometry. The problem then is what kind of material they're made of.

Also, ZSS in ZM has the same Energy Tanks as Power Suit Samus but she takes more damage still if she's hit. So her durability really takes a heavy blow without suit (obviously). If she only has one energy tank though, she'll certainly lose.

Actually, the damage output is the same. Now that's honesty for you. It doesn't make sense, however, since the varia and gravity suit increase Samus' defense, and Samus doesn't activate the gravity suit until after the test against the Chozo god of war.

Diddy is no in-experienced fighter. I'd say that without the RPG games, he could take on even Mario. Then again, that's just me.

I think a lot will have a problem against Mario if he's given all of his abilities.

Paralysing a Space Pirate is of course not an every day task, but I still fail to see how Zero Suit Samus would actually, effectively harm Diddy. Especially as she doesn't have the greatest range with it, and Diddy is flying around with his Rocket Barrel. If she'd hit Diddy whilst flying he might crash however, but am not seeing how.[/quote]

If you see the range of it in MOM, you'll see it fires at least the same range as her beams.

And there you have it, folks! A 46:0 win-loss ratio. Incredible! Of course, if you disagree with one of my choices or want more detail, let me know!

You should still address Mega Man's time stopper. With his weapon tanks, he can keep stopping time.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

While Diddy didn't receive Chozo training, he shouldn't be considered as 'untrained' either. In fact, DK did train and raise Diddy prior to the events of Donkey Kong Country. And the manual mentions Diddy's a real natural, who could one day exceed DK.

Living in the jungle isn't an easy life either btw. And you'll notice that no sane man, trained soldier or not, would ever want to face a chimpansee in combat.

I get ZSS is agile, and yes, sence moves make her somewhat harder to hit but I doubt she'd be able to shrug off Diddy as easily as you'd say. If she'd actually have the whip as in Smash, it'd be another thing as it acts like a lite-Grapple Beam, but up close, toe to toe, I would still give Diddy the advantage. We can agree to disagree on this matter though.

And as stated before, Diddy's peanuts hit as hard as DK's coconuts, so despite looking like funky toys, they are formidable weapons. It's videogame logic. I'm not sure why you wouldn't take that into consideration given that Metroid (whilst being more realisitic than DKC) isn't exactly "non-fiction" or without fantasy aspects either. If you can imagine actual Ice Missiles, the Morph Ball or Screw Attack actually working realistically... imagine peanuts shot from a wooden gun killing large crocodile-like creatures to please... This is a reason why I don't like to adress you regarding Samus, as you seem to mix up realistic physics with Metroid's physics to Samus's advantage ver more "fantasy-based" characters from series as Pokémon, Mario, DKC, Zelda and Kirby. Am not saying you do this purposely, but I tend to view your posts as such regarding Samus.

Also, ZSS in ZM has the same Energy Tanks as Power Suit Samus but she takes more damage still if she's hit. So her durability really takes a heavy blow without suit (obviously). If she only has one energy tank though, she'll certainly lose.

Diddy is no in-experienced fighter. I'd say that without the RPG games, he could take on even Mario. Then again, that's just me.

Paralysing a Space Pirate is of course not an every day task, but I still fail to see how Zero Suit Samus would actually, effectively harm Diddy. Especially as she doesn't have the greatest range with it, and Diddy is flying around with his Rocket Barrel. If she'd hit Diddy whilst flying he might crash however, but am not seeing how.

We are using best versions of equipment if it is different in separate games, so, we are using ZM amount of energy tanks for ZS.
She should certainly be strong if she can jump that high (something that requires strong legs among other things) and having something that deals a lot of damage isn't necessary when she can just be like a camping Fox in Melee on Stamina mode, except with paralyzing shots instead of those that cause no flinching, so, it will take a while, but will still be worth it. Range on them isn't as bad as in SSB as far as i remember.

VS:

Spoiler

: One metal-ripping Spin Dash should do the trick.
VICTORY
: The Clown Car Jr.'s flight can be dealt with via Super Sonic's flight, and nothing else is a concern really.
VICTORY
: The Blue Falcon is fast, but Sonic is faster.
VICTORY
: 2fast4u
VICTORY
: Flight and the weapons are a non-issue for Super Sonic.
VICTORY
: Sonic towers over him, and his tiny hammer shouldn't be an issue.
VICTORY
: Just a monkey with a jet pack and peanut guns.
VICTORY
: An ape without a jet pack and peanut guns.
VICTORY
: Just a doctor that can jump.
VICTORY
: A dog, a duck, and a guy with a Zapper. So threatening.
VICTORY
/: Super Sonic can tear through entire space fleets with his face; one Arwing is no biggie.
VICTORY
: The sacred sword Caliburn should end this quickly, especially when combined with the god-crafted Master Emerald.
VICTORY
: Sonic could just rip through him like a piece of paper.
VICTORY
: Sonic is afraid of water, but he can still easily win this fight (especially with the Bubble Shield).
VICTORY
: Just a guy with a sword that's good at fighting with a sword.
VICTORY
: One sharp spine and the Puff is getting deflated.
VICTORY
: He's eight inches tall, and most of his attacks wouldn't do too much damage to Sonic (let alone Super Sonic). Hypernova is countered by sheer speed or Chaos Control, and even the Warp Star is too slow for Sonic.
VICTORY
: Just a boxer. Yeah.
VICTORY
: Eleven days of invincibility > three, and even without that Ring count, his speed would allow him to easily stall Link out.
VICTORY
: He has the aura, but that doesn't help him against an invincible hedgehog.
VICTORY
: Coming out of nowhere and psychic powers won't be enough to win this.
VICTORY
: "I cannot lose," Sonic says.
VICTORY
: A ghost vacuum and thunder powers are nothing compared to Sonic's abilities.
VICTORY
: I've already analyzed this in the past. Basically, speed and Super Sonic dash any hopes of Mario dealing damage here.
VICTORY
: Hey look, another ordinary swordsman!
VICTORY
: Super Fighting Robots lose to Invincible Speedy Hedgehogs.
VICTORY
: A tiny sword, teleportation, and such aren't quite going to do the trick here.
VICTORY
: Psychic attacks are negated by Super Sonic, and mind control and such are negated by willpower (which would only be further enhanced by the Emeralds).
VICTORY
: Just a kid with psychic attacks, a yo-yo, and a baseball bat.
VICTORY
: He's tiny, and so is his army of pl-ants (:L).
VICTORY
: While her Powers are impressive, Super Sonic is invincible and all.
VICTORY
: No amount of appetite, Power Pellets, or fire hydrants will help him here.
VICTORY
: There's a reason that she always gets kidnapped, you know.
VICTORY
: This tiny yellow rat is beaten by the less tiny yellow hedgehog.
VICTORY
: The Great Sacred Treasure is no biggie; Sonic has already taken on tons of giant robots before.
VICTORY
: A toy robot. How threatening.
VICTORY
: You don't have to be an ordinary swordsman to be defeated by an invincible hedgehog.
VICTORY
: Light Speed Attack takes care of the Luma army, and Sonic has outrun black holes before.
VICTORY
: Eleven days of invincibility trumps robotic suit.
VICTORY
/: Alter egos and a bit of magic aren't enough to take Sonic down.
VICTORY
: The only think he'll be really feeling is a supersonic hedgehog ramming into his face.
VICTORY
: Composite Link with less stuff.
VICTORY
: Just a regular mayor with an axe. While that may be terrifying, it won't do much here.
VICTORY
: Passing gas won't do much good here.
VICTORY
: Wii Fit winning this would be a huge stretch.
VICTORY
: Yoshi trying to swallow Sonic results in a lacerated tongue, stomach, and esophagus.
VICTORY

And there you have it, folks! A 46:0 win-loss ratio. Incredible! Of course, if you disagree with one of my choices or want more detail, let me know!

Its Excalibur that could harm him (Caliburn is too weak and btw, is that game even canon?) and Ganondorf was just fine getting sword made of light energy through his chest (TP), getting Master Sword stuck in his chest (TP again, but then he dies after somehow still being able to stand up, something that shouldn't be possible if you are dieing after a long fight and so many hits to an open wound you don't remember how many), getting Master Sword through his head (OoT), so, maybe there is something more to his weakness.
Is Palutena mortal or what? Gods are usually immortal and everything.

Fortunately, Samus is not a man. I could equally say no sane man, trained or not, would ever want to face one of these.

Not the best example when we have Metroids, Phantoon and the Ing, but yeah...

 

[Munomario777]

Its Excalibur that could harm him (Caliburn is too weak and btw, is that game even canon?) and Ganondorf was just fine getting sword made of light energy through his chest (TP), getting Master Sword stuck in his chest (TP again, but then he dies after somehow still being able to stand up, something that shouldn't be possible if you are dieing after a long fight and so many hits to an open wound you don't remember how many), getting Master Sword through his head (OoT), so, maybe there is something more to his weakness.

Caliburn with Super/Hyper Sonic's power and speed behind it should be able to finish him off (especially since it's referred to as a "sacred sword"). A sword made of light energy isn't the same as a holy/sacred one. So when Ganon was struck with the Master Sword in TP, he died shortly after, or am I misunderstanding this? In Wind Waker, a Master Sword to the skull finishes Ganon off, and turns him to stone.

Is Palutena mortal or what? Gods are usually immortal and everything.

She hasn't demonstrated immortality, and

Spoiler: Uprising Spoilers

before the Palutena fight, Pit is warned not to hurt her.

 

[Crystanium]

She hasn't demonstrated immortality, and

Spoiler: Uprising Spoilers

before the Palutena fight, Pit is warned not to hurt her.

Pit is wielding weapons likely crafted to kill gods. Unless you want to ascribe Pit with strength powerful enough to destroy mountains.

 

[Munomario777]

Pit is wielding weapons likely crafted to kill gods. Unless you want to ascribe Pit with strength powerful enough to destroy mountains.

Sonic has also killed gods. Regardless, this shows that Palutena is not immortal.

 

[Crystanium]

Sonic has also killed gods. Regardless, this shows that Palutena is not immortal.

With what? Also, what about Mega Man's time stopper? Stop time, attack, stop time, attack. Last I checked, in order for Sonic to stop time, he has to say, "Chaos Control!"

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Caliburn with Super/Hyper Sonic's power and speed behind it should be able to finish him off (especially since it's referred to as a "sacred sword"). A sword made of light energy isn't the same as a holy/sacred one. So when Ganon was struck with the Master Sword in TP, he died shortly after, or am I misunderstanding this? In Wind Waker, a Master Sword to the skull finishes Ganon off, and turns him to stone.

She hasn't demonstrated immortality, and

Spoiler: Uprising Spoilers

before the Palutena fight, Pit is warned not to hurt her.

It still left a noticable wound that became his weakpoint, something that would be very hard to do with weapons that aren't holy or sacred.
He dies, but only when Triforce of Power abandons him. He still had time (it wasn't shown how much though) and power to stand up (something that is not possible to do after such long battle and while still having a sword stuck in the chest), taunt his opponents and then suddenly died (with expression as if his heart just suddenly stopped). Then he just stood there and probably would stand like this until something knocks him over since he was standing completly motionless despite there being absolutely nothing to hold him. Its not same as your common dieing speech since th
In WW, he was a normal, but rather old Gerudo when he was killed. Triforce was separated from him (and Link with Zelda) before the fight, so, he no longer had speciffic weakness. And sanity.
Also, you forgot about Ganon(dorf) being able to become intangible.

Will

Spoiler: Uprising Spoilers

she die if you deal too much damage?

Sonic has also killed gods. Regardless, this shows that Palutena is not immortal.

You mean Solaris? I wouldn't say he was a god (he was created by humans). Or you mean someone else?

 

[Munomario777]

With what?

Sometimes with Super Sonic, other times without it.

Also, what about Mega Man's time stopper? Stop time, attack, stop time, attack. Last I checked, in order for Sonic to stop time, he has to say, "Chaos Control!"

Last I checked, Sonic can go Super near-instantaneously. If Mega Man freezes Super Sonic, he's just stopping his Ring counter.

As for saying "Chaos Control", the Chaos Emeralds turn "thoughts into power", so just thinking it should be fine. Plus, we didn't see Sonic say it when he used it to escape the capsule falling from space in Adventure 2.

He dies, but only when Triforce of Power abandons him. He still had time and power to stand up (something that is not possible to do after such long battle and while still having a sword stuck in the chest), taunt his opponents and then suddenly died (with expression as if his heart just suddenly stopped). Then he just stood there and probably would stand like this until something knocks him over since he was standing completly motionless despite there being absolutely nothing to hold him.

What caused the Triforce of Power to abandon him? Was he able to fight after he was hit?

In WW, he was a normal, but rather old Gerudo when he was killed. Triforce was separated from him (and Link with Zelda) before the fight, so, he no longer had speciffic weakness. And sanity.

Then why can't he be hurt by anything besides the Light Arrows/Master Sword?

Will

Spoiler: Uprising Spoilers

she die if you deal too much damage?

I'm not sure, since I haven't played Uprising, but it's clear that she can be harmed thanks to that quote.

You mean Solaris? I wouldn't say he was a god (he was created by humans). Or you mean someone else?

Actually, Solaris was split by humans, not created by them. However, I was referring more to the gods of destruction that Sonic has taken out over the years, such as Perfect Chaos, Perfect Dark Gaia, the Time Eater, etc.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

What caused the Triforce of Power to abandon him? Was he able to fight after he was hit?

Then why can't he be hurt by anything besides the Light Arrows/Master Sword?

I'm not sure, since I haven't played Uprising, but it's clear that she can be harmed thanks to that quote.

Actually, Solaris was split by humans, not created by them. However, I was referring more to the gods of destruction that Sonic has taken out over the years, such as Perfect Chaos, Perfect Dark Gaia, the Time Eater, etc.

Don't know. Triforce does not knows concept of good and evil if it grants wishes to anyone worthy of it, so, it may have though of Ganondorf as someone not worthy of its power. And we don't know was he able to fight or not after getting impaled by Master Sword since he didn't attempted to do so.

He is still a giant wizard with hundreds of years of experience. Its just a lot more effective than other things. Did anyone tried any weapons on him other than Master Sword? Either way, Triforce of Power was what gave him invincibility (it was the only reason he survived execution in TP) and he gave it away in order to make a wish, but the King took it first, so, he had no Triforce of Power at that time.

Spoiler

Yes, she does dies.

Oh, well, then he is kinda pathetic for a god when he can be destroyed by putting off its flames. And didn't he became all-powerful after getting separated/reassembled?
Wasn't Time Eater pretty much dead when found by Eggman and co.?

 

[Munomario777]

Don't know. Triforce does not knows concept of good and evil if it grants wishes to anyone worthy of it, so, it may have though of Ganondorf as someone not worthy of its power. And we don't know was he able to fight or not after getting impaled by Master Sword since he didn't attempted to do so.

Interesting.

He is still a giant wizard with hundreds of years of experience. Its just a lot more effective than other things. Did anyone tried any weapons on him other than Master Sword? Either way, Triforce of Power was what gave him invincibility (it was the only reason he survived execution in TP) and he gave it away in order to make a wish, but the King took it first, so, he had no Triforce of Power at that time.

Does Ganon ever lose the Triforce of Power in the original Zelda? Also, in Ocarina, Ganon is defeated by the Master Sword even with the Triforce of Power, and this also happens in the original Zelda for the NES.

Spoiler

Yes, she does dies.

Interesting.

Oh, well, then he is kinda pathetic for a god when he can be destroyed by putting off its flames. And didn't he became all-powerful after getting separated/reassembled?

Yeah, that is rather odd. And yes, he is a deity in terms of power in his final form.

Wasn't Time Eater pretty much dead when found by Eggman and co.?

Not that I know of. It was definitely capable of time manipulation and all.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

When is it stated that this is a Monado-only technique?

Allow me to provide another example on the matter, to prove my point. Greninjas can manipulate water (Water Shuriken anyone?). Greninjas are also mostly comprised of water (humans are 75% water, and being water types, Greninjas would likely contain more than that). Yet, they cannot manipulate themselves.

Do you see any non-Monado users doing this voluntarily (High Entia turning into Telethia doesn‘t count because it‘s forced (although it does prove ether can be used for that effect) and Dickson and Lorithias’ shape shifting shenanigans are likely the result of Zanza‘s great power being bestowed upon them)?

Greninja’s body is made up of mostly water but I doubt his cell walls are and that is why he can’t change shape (he‘s a frog not a water elemental). Shulk and the Monado on the other hand are made up of 100% ether and don’t have anything like cell walls (which are made of ether) to hold them back.

The peanuts are stronger than regular peanuts of course, as they damage enemies the same as coconuts being shot at them. And they are able to take out enemies like Zingers, who the Kongs normally only could kill with barrels (due to their spikes). I doubt real life physics would apply in these sorts of things anyway, and as I stated before, the weapons the Kongs used in DK64 where orignally meant to be real life guns.

The Peanut and Coconut Guns aren’t real guns and this just makes the Kremlings sound real pathetic if they can be defeated by peanuts of all things.

VS:

Spoiler

: One metal-ripping Spin Dash should do the trick.
VICTORY
: The Clown Car Jr.'s flight can be dealt with via Super Sonic's flight, and nothing else is a concern really.
VICTORY
: The Blue Falcon is fast, but Sonic is faster.
VICTORY
: 2fast4u
VICTORY
: Flight and the weapons are a non-issue for Super Sonic.
VICTORY
: Sonic towers over him, and his tiny hammer shouldn't be an issue.
VICTORY
: Just a monkey with a jet pack and peanut guns.
VICTORY
: An ape without a jet pack and peanut guns.
VICTORY
: Just a doctor that can jump.
VICTORY
: A dog, a duck, and a guy with a Zapper. So threatening.
VICTORY
/: Super Sonic can tear through entire space fleets with his face; one Arwing is no biggie.
VICTORY
: The sacred sword Caliburn should end this quickly, especially when combined with the god-crafted Master Emerald.
VICTORY
: Sonic could just rip through him like a piece of paper.
VICTORY
: Sonic is afraid of water, but he can still easily win this fight (especially with the Bubble Shield).
VICTORY
: Just a guy with a sword that's good at fighting with a sword.
VICTORY
: One sharp spine and the Puff is getting deflated.
VICTORY
: He's eight inches tall, and most of his attacks wouldn't do too much damage to Sonic (let alone Super Sonic). Hypernova is countered by sheer speed or Chaos Control, and even the Warp Star is too slow for Sonic.
VICTORY
: Just a boxer. Yeah.
VICTORY
: Eleven days of invincibility > three, and even without that Ring count, his speed would allow him to easily stall Link out.
VICTORY
: He has the aura, but that doesn't help him against an invincible hedgehog.
VICTORY
: Coming out of nowhere and psychic powers won't be enough to win this.
VICTORY
: "I cannot lose," Sonic says.
VICTORY
: A ghost vacuum and thunder powers are nothing compared to Sonic's abilities.
VICTORY
: I've already analyzed this in the past. Basically, speed and Super Sonic dash any hopes of Mario dealing damage here.
VICTORY
: Hey look, another ordinary swordsman!
VICTORY
: Super Fighting Robots lose to Invincible Speedy Hedgehogs.
VICTORY
: A tiny sword, teleportation, and such aren't quite going to do the trick here.
VICTORY
: Psychic attacks are negated by Super Sonic, and mind control and such are negated by willpower (which would only be further enhanced by the Emeralds).
VICTORY
: Just a kid with psychic attacks, a yo-yo, and a baseball bat.
VICTORY
: He's tiny, and so is his army of pl-ants (:L).
VICTORY
: While her Powers are impressive, Super Sonic is invincible and all.
VICTORY
: No amount of appetite, Power Pellets, or fire hydrants will help him here.
VICTORY
: There's a reason that she always gets kidnapped, you know.
VICTORY
: This tiny yellow rat is beaten by the less tiny yellow hedgehog.
VICTORY
: The Great Sacred Treasure is no biggie; Sonic has already taken on tons of giant robots before.
VICTORY
: A toy robot. How threatening.
VICTORY
: You don't have to be an ordinary swordsman to be defeated by an invincible hedgehog.
VICTORY
: Light Speed Attack takes care of the Luma army, and Sonic has outrun black holes before.
VICTORY
: Eleven days of invincibility trumps robotic suit.
VICTORY
/: Alter egos and a bit of magic aren't enough to take Sonic down.
VICTORY
: The only think he'll be really feeling is a supersonic hedgehog ramming into his face.
VICTORY
: Composite Link with less stuff.
VICTORY
: Just a regular mayor with an axe. While that may be terrifying, it won't do much here.
VICTORY
: Passing gas won't do much good here.
VICTORY
: Wii Fit winning this would be a huge stretch.
VICTORY
: Yoshi trying to swallow Sonic results in a lacerated tongue, stomach, and esophagus.
VICTORY

And there you have it, folks! A 46:0 win-loss ratio. Incredible! Of course, if you disagree with one of my choices or want more detail, let me know!

Sonic loses to the Mother duo do to PK Flash (unless Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood gives him anything useful). I don’t see Sonic going Super before it’s too late.

Its Excalibur that could harm him (Caliburn is too weak and btw, is that game even canon?) and Ganondorf was just fine getting sword made of light energy through his chest (TP)

For what it’s worth the sages don’t strike me as the strongest people around (they clearly don’t have Ike level strength that’s for sure).

Sonic has also killed gods. Regardless, this shows that Palutena is not immortal.

What are the feats of these Gods of destruction (I doubt they can match Zanza, Meyneth or Ashunera)?
Palutena was severely weakened at the time of the battle with Pit.

What feats and equipment does Dr. Mario get to use?

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Interesting.

Does Ganon ever lose the Triforce of Power in the original Zelda? Also, in Ocarina, Ganon is defeated by the Master Sword even with the Triforce of Power, and this also happens in the original Zelda for the NES.

Interesting.

Yeah, that is rather odd. And yes, he is a deity in terms of power in his final form.

Not that I know of. It was definitely capable of time manipulation and all.

Only after dieing. In OoT, he was still alive after the battle, sealed off by the Sages until he breaks out of the containment and is stopped when Hyrule goes underwater. He dies in LoZ and aLttP even with them though.

Even more odd is that the game is still somehow canon despite absolutely everything in it getting cancelled with something that should cause a time paradox worthy Metal Gear Solid would not even dream of.

It certainly wasn't completly intact at the time its first encountered and it should have fought back if Eggman was alone with no real weapon with him unless it simply wasn't able to do so.

For what it’s worth the sages don’t strike me as the strongest people around (they clearly don’t have Ike level strength that’s for sure).

Well, of course. They are still mortal. One even gets his head bashed in in one rather lazy strike from a giant guy with rather glorious beard and a very big sword stuck in the chest after their glorious failure at execution.

 

[Munomario777]

Do you see any non-Monado users doing this voluntarily (High Entia turning into Telethia doesn‘t count because it‘s forced (although it does prove ether can be used for that effect) and ****son and Lorithias’ shape shifting shenanigans are likely the result of Zanza‘s great power being bestowed upon them)?

No, and I don't see Shulk doing it either.

Greninja’s body is made up of mostly water but I doubt his cell walls are and that is why he can’t change shape (he‘s a frog not a water elemental). Shulk and the Monado on the other hand are made up of 100% ether and don’t have anything like cell walls (which are made of ether) to hold them back.

Okay then, I'll provide another example. In Super Mario Galaxy, Ice Mario has Mario turn into a living ice sculpture and manipulate ice to freeze water, yet you don't see him shape shifting.

Sonic loses to the Mother duo do to PK Flash (unless Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood gives him anything useful). I don’t see Sonic going Super before it’s too late.

PSI Flash only has a 40% chance of OHKOing, and as I've stated above, the Super Sonic transformation takes only a split second.

What are the feats of these Gods of destruction (I doubt they can match Zanza, Meyneth or Ashunera)?

Let's see.

• Perfect Chaos turned an entire city into flooded ruins.
• Iblis (half of Solaris) turned an entire city into lava-flooded ruins.
• Solaris was about to rip apart time and space itself before Sonic and co. stopped him.
• Time Eater seriously messed with the time-space continuum, bringing different locations and time periods together with plans to eventually destroy it as a whole.
• Dark Gaia ripped the earth apart, continent by continent.
• Ultimate Emerl, while not a god of destruction, did possess all seven Chaos Emeralds, the data of every character in the game, and a giant space laser cannon, and Sonic beat him without going Super in 30 seconds flat.

Palutena was severely weakened at the time of the battle with Pit.

Has she demonstrated immortality without being weakened?

Only after dieing. In OoT, he was still alive after the battle, sealed off by the Sages until he breaks out of the containment and is stopped when Hyrule goes underwater. He dies in LoZ and aLttP even with them though.

So Ganon can be killed, even with the ToP. Interesting.

Even more odd is that the game is still somehow canon despite absolutely everything in it getting cancelled with something that should cause a time paradox worthy Metal Gear Solid would not even dream of.

If you mean Generations, I think the implication is that it's being pulled from an alternate reality (see the many worlds interpretation).

It certainly wasn't completly intact at the time its first encountered and it should have fought back if Eggman was alone with no real weapon with him unless it simply wasn't able to do so.

It was intact; it just didn't have the mechanical bits that Robotnik put on it to control it. Think of it like a harness.

 

[Robertos0511]

Well, if you put each character at their peak then Shulk > Everyone because he literally became a God and created an entire world. And before you say "But sonic can freeze time", when Shulk becomes a god, he gains access to the passage of fate (I.E., he can see anything that ever has or will happen) and with 3 Monados he could easily counter any attack Sonic throws at him. Hell, with the sort of world-creating power he has, he could probably destroy the Chaos Emeralds.

But imo, speaking about characters at their peak is boring. Compare them in their normal forms, then it becomes a lot more interesting.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

So Ganon can be killed, even with the ToP. Interesting.

If you mean Generations, I think the implication is that it's being pulled from an alternate reality (see the many worlds interpretation).

It was intact; it just didn't have the mechanical bits that Robotnik put on it to control it. Think of it like a harness.

Even with full Triforce (aLttP).

Oh...well, that makes sense.

I said it wasn't intact when first encountered as in when Sonic first saw it. Then i said that it should have fought Eggman back to prevent such thing from happening it if actually would be able to do so, which means that its either not a god, is too weak for a god or was nearly dead.

Well, if you put each character at their peak then Shulk > Everyone because he literally became a God and created an entire world. And before you say "But sonic can freeze time", when Shulk becomes a god, he gains access to the passage of fate (I.E., he can see anything that ever has or will happen) and with 3 Monados he could easily counter any attack Sonic throws at him. Hell, with the sort of world-creating power he has, he could probably destroy the Chaos Emeralds.

But imo, speaking about characters at their peak is boring. Compare them in their normal forms, then it becomes a lot more interesting.

Here, he has control only over his body since nothing else is made of ether, so, it won't help as much to have control over ether as it would in his world. Area used here is completly neutral, giving advantage to no one. As far as i remember.

 

[Munomario777]

Well, if you put each character at their peak then Shulk > Everyone because he literally became a God and created an entire world. And before you say "But sonic can freeze time", when Shulk becomes a god, he gains access to the passage of fate (I.E., he can see anything that ever has or will happen) and with 3 Monados he could easily counter any attack Sonic throws at him. Hell, with the sort of world-creating power he has, he could probably destroy the Chaos Emeralds.

But imo, speaking about characters at their peak is boring. Compare them in their normal forms, then it becomes a lot more interesting.

Shulk told Alvis to recreate the world.

Even with full Triforce (aLttP).

So this shouldn't be an issue then.

Oh...well, that makes sense.

Yup.

I said it wasn't intact when first encountered as in when Sonic first saw it. Then i said that it should have fought Eggman back to prevent such thing from happening it if actually would be able to do so, which means that its either not a god, is too weak for a god or was nearly dead.

Or perhaps the Time Eater was just compliant with Robotnik?

 

[BaganSmashBros]

So this shouldn't be an issue then.

Yup.

Or perhaps the Time Eater was just compliant with Robotnik?

But then again, he survives same treatment in OoT (and he had only ToP).

...that could work too.

 

[Munomario777]

But then again, he survives same treatment in OoT (and he had only ToP).

Two games > one game.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Two games > one game.

Then Ganondorf is screwed. Still, was that game with Excalibur canon or what? Kinda hard to tell considering how it ends...or just what happens...

 

[Munomario777]

Then Ganondorf is screwed. Still, was that game with Excalibur canon or what? Kinda hard to tell considering how it ends...

Seeing as how Sonic passively references Secret Rings (the other storybook title besides Black Knight) in Generations, it seems likely.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Seeing as how Sonic passively references Secret Rings (the other storybook title besides Black Knight) in Generations, it seems likely.

Does he references Black Knight though? That matters more.

 

[Munomario777]

Does he references Black Knight though? That matters more.

Not directly, but there's nothing indicating that it wouldn't be canon, and since Black Knight and Secret Rings are on a similar "tier", it does seem like it is part of the canon.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Not directly, but there's nothing indicating that it wouldn't be canon, and since Black Knight and Secret Rings are on a similar "tier", it does seem like it is part of the canon.

Then i guess what happens in the game doesn't happens in "main" world. Thats the only way to explain certain questionable plot points. Either way, everyone is screwed.

 

[Munomario777]

Then i guess what happens in the game doesn't happens in "main" world. Thats the only way to explain certain questionable plot points. Either way, everyone is screwed.

The majority of the game takes place in a book world, but that shouldn't stop Caliburn from coming out to help Sonic in the fight. In fact, in Secret Rings, Shahra comes out of another similar magical book into the real world and asks Sonic to come in and save the day. Either way, though, the Master Emerald should do the trick, since it was created by the gods of Sonic's world.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

The majority of the game takes place in a book world, but that shouldn't stop Caliburn from coming out to help Sonic in the fight. In fact, in Secret Rings, Shahra comes out of another similar magical book into the real world and asks Sonic to come in and save the day. Either way, though, the Master Emerald should do the trick, since it was created by the gods of Sonic's world.

Yeah, i remember that...
I didn't know about that one. Never really though of it as anything more than a giant chaos emerald/triforce hybrid that sometimes is protected by Knuckles.


You know whats hillarious about the whole "Super Sonic owns all" thing? Super Sonic is also the most overpowered Final Smash in Brawl, just like it is the most powerful tool here. And we are using SSB characters for the list.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

...That's about it actually, I didn't have much to say.

So you have no opinion on Sonic getting his ring total from the Black Market or if Shulk should be able to use.
Also, @ Kirby Dragons , and @Dryn , still waiting on whether you think Sonic gets the ring count from the Black Market.

A) Which I will also address.
B) Yes, they are.
C) He can hold up to five (since that's the maximum inventory space in Lost World), but weren't we going with one of each consumable?

A) k
B) Are there any games he can apply them like a power-up vs finding them?
C) You're right.

It contradicts the explanation, and lore > gameplay. And yes I did, but I believe it has a source.

It's not a contradiction. Nothing about it being a bright light that activates by overloading safety devices prevents it from stopping projectiles. I understand what you're saying, but contradiction isn't the right word.
BTW, are cutscenes considered below, above or equal to gameplay?

Then why do they state otherwise?

It doesn't state "otherwise". Contradiction would be, for example if it only worked on organics despite the wiki saying it operates by activating a safety device in machines. This is like an unexplained bonus effect.

He doesn't have to jump; that's just a result of the jumping and Super Sonic being mapped to the same button in that game.

It should have an effect on anything that reacts to a bright flash of light.

...even though this would actually be a contradiction of the lore.

Fun fact, in Sonic the Fighters, which runs on a health bar system, characters are actually losing Rings; they just happen to take the form of a health bar there.

That's not the game I was referring to but good stuff.

Has she demonstrated immortality without being weakened?

@Dryn , @ BaganSmashBros , @ Munomario777

Palutena IS immortal. However she can be defeated in battle. She'd just regenerate an undetermined time later, but it would be long enough after the battle that she'd have been considered the loser.

We are using best versions of equipment if it is different in separate games, so, we are using ZM amount of energy tanks for ZS.
She should certainly be strong if she can jump that high (something that requires strong legs among other things) and having something that deals a lot of damage isn't necessary when she can just be like a camping Fox in Melee on Stamina mode, except with paralyzing shots instead of those that cause no flinching, so, it will take a while, but will still be worth it. Range on them isn't as bad as in SSB as far as i remember.

Its Excalibur that could harm him (Caliburn is too weak and btw, is that game even canon?) and Ganondorf was just fine getting sword made of light energy through his chest (TP), getting Master Sword stuck in his chest (TP again, but then he dies after somehow still being able to stand up, something that shouldn't be possible if you are dieing after a long fight and so many hits to an open wound you don't remember how many), getting Master Sword through his head (OoT), so, maybe there is something more to his weakness.
Is Palutena mortal or what? Gods are usually immortal and everything.

Not the best example when we have Metroids, Phantoon and the Ing, but yeah...

 

[Robertos0511]

Here, he has control only over his body since nothing else is made of ether, so, it won't help as much to have control over ether as it would in his world. Area used here is completely neutral, giving advantage to no one. As far as i remember.

Well, I would agree with that, but Shulk can still see the future during his counter (An ability which relies on reading the flow of ether in the world around him, if I'm not mistaken) despite the fact that his enemies (supposedly) aren't made up of ether, and neither is the world around him. This leads us to a few possible conclusions:

1. The Monados powers work in full whether or not ether is present.
2. All of the characters in smash are made up of ether and so is everything else that Shulk can counter.

Either way, Shulk's powers still apply in full during the fight. At the very least, if he can't harm his enemy directly, he still has the power of creation and can foresee the future

Shulk told Alvis to recreate the world.

Yeah, Alvis = Monado, Shulk controls the Monado, Shulk still has the power of creation.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Well, I would agree with that, but Shulk can still see the future during his counter (An ability which relies on reading the flow of ether in the world around him, if I'm not mistaken) despite the fact that his enemies (supposedly) aren't made up of ether, and neither is the world around him. This leads us to a few possible conclusions:

1. The Monados powers work in full whether or not ether is present.
2. All of the characters in smash are made up of ether and so is everything else that Shulk can counter.

Either way, Shulk's powers still apply in full during the fight. At the very least, if he can't harm his enemy directly, he still has the power of creation and can foresee the future

Thats SSB. He never even heard of any of the characters he can fight against in SSB. This isn't canon. If we will use it as a source anyhow, then ZSS is somehow stronger than Samus in Power Suit (who can lift a giant lava whale shark thing, spin around with it held with grapple beam and then throw it into the wall with enough force to kill), everyone is immortal, Captain Falcon can hit harder than Samus, Wii-Fit Trainer...everyone can harm Ganondorf, Ganondorf is slow and can barely jump despite jumping very high and running fast when he was older than dirt, half of the cast don't die upon touching the lava, etc.

I wouldn't say so.

 

[Munomario777]

A) k
B) Are there any games he can apply them like a power-up vs finding them?
C) You're right.

B) Yes; this is a feature in Sonic Generations.

It's not a contradiction. Nothing about it being a bright light that activates by overloading safety devices prevents it from stopping projectiles. I understand what you're saying, but contradiction isn't the right word.

Sorry, my bad.

It doesn't state "otherwise". Contradiction would be, for example if it only worked on organics despite the wiki saying it operates by activating a safety device in machines. This is like an unexplained bonus effect.

Perhaps the projectiles are controlled by the robots? Either way, this doesn't mean that it can freeze every foe (especially given the resistance to this shown by the Robot Masters).

...even though this would actually be a contradiction of the lore.

How so?

@Dryn , @ BaganSmashBros , @ Munomario777

Palutena IS immortal. However she can be defeated in battle. She'd just regenerate an undetermined time later, but it would be long enough after the battle that she'd have been considered the loser.

Yup.

Yeah, Alvis = Monado, Shulk controls the Monado, Shulk still has the power of creation.

We've discussed this multiple times in the past, so I'd rather not get into it again. Just search the thread for "Alvis".

 

[Crystanium]

Sonic has also killed gods. Regardless, this shows that Palutena is not immortal.

Are these gods capable of withstanding blows powerful enough to affect the mountains around them?

Sometimes with Super Sonic, other times without it.

Last I checked, Sonic can go Super near-instantaneously. If Mega Man freezes Super Sonic, he's just stopping his Ring counter.

As for saying "Chaos Control", the Chaos Emeralds turn "thoughts into power", so just thinking it should be fine. Plus, we didn't see Sonic say it when he used it to escape the capsule falling from space in Adventure 2.

So let's go through this again. Maybe I forgot. Sonic has fire shield and a super form and hyper form. Even at a reasonable temperature, has Sonic demonstrated the ability to withstand 1,200 centigrade?

So you have no opinion on Sonic getting his ring total from the Black Market or if Shulk should be able to use.
Also, @ Kirby Dragons , and @Dryn , still waiting on whether you think Sonic gets the ring count from the Black Market.

In order to buy Maria Robotnik's menu voice, Sonic would need 30,000 rings. I haven't been paying attention to the 99,999 rings or whatever. If these rings accumulate for the black market, then I'll be fine with the 99,999 rings or whatever.

I think it's funny that Munomario777 is confident that Sonic will defeat Ganondorf, even though he was so adamant at the idea of Samus defeating Ganondorf.

I'm working on my match-up list for Samus. I hope to be finished soon.

 

[Robertos0511]

Thats SSB. He never even heard of any of the characters he can fight against in SSB. This isn't canon. If we will use it as a source anyhow, then ZSS is somehow stronger than Samus in Power Suit (who can lift a giant lava whale shark thing, spin around with it held with grapple beam and then throw it into the wall with enough force to kill), everyone is immortal, Captain Falcon can hit harder than Samus, Wii-Fit Trainer...everyone can harm Ganondorf, Ganondorf is slow and can barely jump despite jumping very high and running fast when he was older than dirt, half of the cast don't die upon touching the lava, etc.

I wouldn't say so.

Oh, well if we don't have this fight take place in the "Smash Universe" I guess we could call it, then the monado's literally just gonna be a red sword that doesn't even light up (unless were in the Xenoblade universe, of course), and Shulk's just gonna be a lifeless corpse cause he requires ether to live like a plant requires sunlight. Basically, without ether, there's gonna be no fight. But we are arguing about peak conditions, in which Shulk is a god and has (What I presume) an unlimited amount of ether energy.And while he may be unable to directly affect lifeforms that aren't ether based, he could still for see any injuries they inflict upon him etc, and he would still have the power of the monados, so it'd still be a win.

 

[Munomario777]

Are these gods capable of withstanding blows powerful enough to affect the mountains around them?

A) Pit didn't use the GST against Palutena AFAIK.
B) That seems to be from Hades and Pit's blows combined rather than just Pit.
C) Dark Gaia shook the mountains (seeing as how the earth was literally torn apart), if that counts.

So let's go through this again. Maybe I forgot. Sonic has fire shield and a super form and hyper form. Even at a reasonable temperature, has Sonic demonstrated the ability to withstand 1,200 centigrade?

He can literally stand on lava inside a volcano, which often reaches around that temperature.

In order to buy Maria Robotnik's menu voice, Sonic would need 30,000 rings. I haven't been paying attention to the 99,999 rings or whatever. If these rings accumulate for the black market, then I'll be fine with the 99,999 rings or whatever.

Actually, it's 999,999; the counter goes into triple digits (I've provided an image of this earlier in the thread).

I think it's funny that Munomario777 is confident that Sonic will defeat Ganondorf, even though he was so adamant at the idea of Samus defeating Ganondorf.

Sonic has holy/blessed weaponry. Samus does not.

I'm working on my match-up list for Samus. I hope to be finished soon.

Can't wait!

 

[ShadowLBlue]

B) Yes; this is a feature in Sonic Generations.

Cool. Does he have any new ones besides the electric, fire, bubble, and traditional one?

Perhaps the projectiles are controlled by the robots? Either way, this doesn't mean that it can freeze every foe (especially given the resistance to this shown by the Robot Masters).

Well I'm not saying it should freeze anyone who's not mechanical, just that it would work on projectiles still. I admit nothing about it lore or footage wise means it should stop projectiles, but I think it does it too consistently to ignore.

How so?

Like you said yourself, it (somehow) operates by Megaman unleashing a bright light that activates a safety device which causes them to freeze. Since organics and (most) vehicles don't have a safety device in their eyes, it shouldn't affect them. It could be a graphics thing, but it's not like the Flash from Flash Stopper is so bright it fills the entire screen.

In order to buy Maria Robotnik's menu voice, Sonic would need 30,000 rings. I haven't been paying attention to the 99,999 rings or whatever. If these rings accumulate for the black market, then I'll be fine with the 99,999 rings or whatever.

Menu voices count as canon?
But whatever, I'd add you as For. 2-3.

I think it's funny that Munomario777 is confident that Sonic will defeat Ganondorf, even though he was so adamant at the idea of Samus defeating Ganondorf.
.

Sonic turns into Super Sonic, who is holy, who moves at minimum like Mach 4. Far to fast for Ganondorf to keep up.

Samus would beat Ganondorf if she had anything capable of negating his evil barrier.

Oh, well if we don't have this fight take place in the "Smash Universe" I guess we could call it, then the monado's literally just gonna be a red sword that doesn't even light up (unless were in the Xenoblade universe, of course), and Shulk's just gonna be a lifeless corpse cause he requires ether to live like a plant requires sunlight. Basically, without ether, there's gonna be no fight. But we are arguing about peak conditions, in which Shulk is a god and has (What I presume) an unlimited amount of ether energy.And while he may be unable to directly affect lifeforms that aren't ether based, he could still for see any injuries they inflict upon him etc, and he would still have the power of the monados, so it'd still be a win.

Yes, but Shulk lacks any projectiles (although some of his attacks do travel several meters) and outside of dodging, only has Monado Shield to block attacks (which requires 4 hits to recharge).
Also just because he can see it coming doesn't mean he can dodge it (i.e. Sonic running into him a Mach Speed)

 

[Kirby Dragons]

As proven by?

Monado wielders manipulating their body.

When is it stated that this is a Monado-only technique?

There are no outside influences.

Allow me to provide another example on the matter, to prove my point. Greninjas can manipulate water (Water Shuriken anyone?). Greninjas are also mostly comprised of water (humans are 75% water, and being water types, Greninjas would likely contain more than that). Yet, they cannot manipulate themselves.

There's not any actual lore that a Greninja can control water, it was just shown that Greninja have water attacks. Also, what Godwin said about Shulk being completely ether.

Cat anatomy is scientifically proven to include claw growth, whereas I haven't seen solid proof that ether manipulation inherently includes controlling oneself.

No one ever said Zanza had to learn the technique either.

When is it stated that ether manipulation is a body manipulation technique?

I've proved how ether manipulation can control the body. Zanza gave an example of this when he gave himself wings.

Actually, I'm referring to the time freezing, which is commonly performed by only one hedgehog and one Emerald. As for the time travel. First off, the users don't have to be in a Super state. Second, if two Emeralds trying to use Chaos Control at the same time (which is the reason for this, yes) can initiate time travel, then I don't doubt that seven Emeralds (or Super Emeralds) could do the same.

And has Sonic performed time freezing before? By the way, the 7 Emeralds > 2 Emeralds is basically the same as the Monado lll > Monado ll.

@ ShadowLBlue I'm a little confused on the black market vote. What are my options?