Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Munomario777]

What do you think they're made of? Plastic? They open just like metal clips on coin pouches, and there's also metal parts involved to generate the energy that Pokémon turn into. As for the soda can, that only shows Mewtwo can crush things very easily.

Plastic seems pretty likely, seeing as how they're mass-produced, cheap, and have a rather shiny appearance to them. Coin pouches are often made of leather, so this argument is invalid. Plastic electronic devices have metal inside of them, yet they are still plastic and not as tough as metal. In the anime, we get a clear look at the inside of a Pokeball, revealing that they are hollow, so even if they were made of metal, they would be the equivalent of crushing a soda can (which isn't very impressive).

 

[Crystanium]

Remember that tier lists are based on how many victories a character on the roster has. The more, the higher. I took a brief guess for all characters below to see how many they'd likely win against. It does not mean that if a character is higher on the tier list, that he/she could not be defeated by one who is lower. For example, Pit could defeat Ganondorf, but Ganondorf would likely perform better when fighting the rest of those on the tier list. Those in the tier list side-by-side are only that way because their are both male and female choices. I also didn't list everyone on the roster because I'm not familiar with most RPG characters.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Don’t embarrass yourself, this list is based on overall strength not cuteness and the Heropon would still win on that count.

They seem to curve quie a bit, as if they have homing prroperties. I don't have video atm, but look up a twenty-minute video on Mario's Smash moveset origins or something along those lines, and it should be near the end of that.

Mario’s fireball attacks move in a straight wave/bouncing line in Super Mario RPG.

It's like how background areas often don't have collision programmed in (because the player isn't meant to be there) and you can just fall through them if you somehow manage to mod/hack/glitch your way there.

This is true, even Xenoblade uses this technique all over the place.

Ranging from eight inches (Meta Knight) to planet-sized (NOVA)

Are we certain Nova the comet is planet-sized (he seems to share the varying sizes thing with Mr. Sun and Mr. Moon)? Kirby also beat him by KO his heart from the inside so I don’t know if that performance can be replicated in this setting.

Easy, jump on the warp star and apply the invincibility candy, then fly at Shulk and slash him. Dead. OHKO-ed. Why? Well I lost all the information in this post full of math and stuff but the end result was if Kirby flew the Warp Star at light speed into someone it would generate more than 2,041,375,989.81 Newtons. This isn't even counting the mass of the warp star, Kirby's shoes, or his sword. This would easily kill Shulk who can be one shot from a long fall, by comparison a 302 pound man moving at 1,000 mph would only generate 61,244 newtons.
Monado Shield wouldn't work as this isn't a Talent Art. As a matter of fact, it's the equivalent of an auto attack just at a really fast speed.

Shulk taking damage from falls is a game mechanic and a screwed up one at that (Shulk takes fall damage at increments of 20/40/60/80/100% of Max HP but with a Fall Defense VI (75% reduction) gem takes 5/10/15/20/100% of Max HP)!

Since when does the Warp Star move at warp speed in atmosphere?

Can you prove that the Milky Way Wishes map is to scale and doesn’t use time dilation?

Eh, purge is a projectile, but it's something he can spam the way Robin can her various spells or Lucina can her spears.
Imagine this:

• Greninja sends surf at Shulk.
• Shulk splits it open with Monado Purge
• Greninja fires hydro pump
• Shulk jumps out of way
• However Greninja fires another Surf at him while in air. Surf's a wide range attack, plus he's in the air, so dodging is unlikely. And he hasn't hit Greninja to have recovered enough talent gauge to use Purge while coming at Greninja.

Or something like that. He can probably block Lucina's spears, but I don't see him deflecting a steady stream of projectile Pokemon attacks. And since they'd all be special attacks, I don't think Speed works.
Eater, Cyclone and Stream aren't actually projectiles, but they do count as long (more like medium) range. I'll definitely bump him up on my next tier list.

Can Pokemon fire off attacks like that in rapid succession? How high does the wave from surf go and how long is it? There is no way in hell that’s the best tidal wave style attack in a Nintendo game (the best attack like that would go to Green Earth CO Drake‘s submerged submarine and airborne bomber hitting CO power Tsunami).
Shulk should be able to use Monado Armor to help take the sting out of Pokemon projectile attacks.
Don’t forget that Shulk can sacrifice half his current health for about half a Talent gauge about every 40 seconds (although this is only practical against weak or easy to dodge projectiles).

Cape Feather -> Mega Mushroom. We've been over this before.

Seeing as how Mario is the one choosing who he wants to attack (the fireballs don't hit his party members), he seems to have control over their direction.

Won’t that waste his cape feather according to the mega Mushroom wiki? You want to hit a flying enemy with a dive bombing style attack (comparable to a bomber trying to bomb another bomber in the air)? You’re insane!

Mario’s projectiles bounce in a straight line and Mario RPG has only 8 facings (45 degree angles) which explains the fireballs unusual movement.

Aura Sphere can be dodged by using Fly. Again, we have already been over this.

Mario isn’t flying, he’s falling.

As shown in the Galaxy games, the Ground Pound can crush over ten layers of stone at once.

Mewtwo is not made of stone.

Thats not what i meant. If he would die, nothing would happen since he already created the universe and even if it would, then this region wouldn't be the only thing to vanish. What i meant is more like what will happen if the guy who moves that wrecking ball would decide to crush a fly that sits on the wall of the building.
If he is as powerful as universal creator should be, then after his attacks, nothing should be left remaining on the battlefield other than ashes or just void, depending on the mood i guess. And yet, everything is fine.

Gods aren’t capable of finesse now? According to that logic none of the Greek demigods would be born because their mothers wouldn’t survive their encounter with Zeus.

Very interesting thread

Want to join in the fun?

Ganondorf has his own dark magic. He can make Mewtwo immobile, and can posses Mewtwo and also mind control Mewtwo.

When does he do all these things and you better not be referring to when he does that to Zelda (she had no means of breaking out in the 1st instance and was unconscious for the 2nd).

The power of the Monado allows one to change form like in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...v=rfUs8P8PcHw&feature=player_detailpage#t=959 at 15:59-16:22.
When I was mentioning that Shulk could change the Monado from a 2-handed sword to a anti-air gun or Missile launcher I based on him actually knowing what they are as you can find anti-air guns on top of the rebuilt Colony 6 fortress and Shulk can witness Egil using his Talent Art “Homing Missiles IV” in battle at Agniratha. I felt that was going to far but he likely would be able to replicate the other party members weapons instead. He’s made drivers for Reyn (https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...=0YEhVPZjgMk&feature=player_detailpage#t=1022 at 17:02-17:08 and http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/A_Token_of_Friendship) and offered to make a new ether rifle for Sharla which would imply he knows how they function (https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...XRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&v=Oky8wjex41Q#t=1762 at 29:22-29:31). Another interesting thing that happens gameplay wise is that starting from Mechonis Field onward Mechon start dropping anti-Mechon weapons which never happened in previous Mechon infested areas and I suspect Shulk might have something to do with that. Shulk has likely worked on drivers and ether rifles in the past due to how common they are amongst Colony 9 Defense Force soldiers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmM...P040gwIwlhqcP&feature=player_detailpage#t=314 at 5:14-5:24) and likely won’t be clueless on how to use them.
Shulk with an Ether rifle shaped Monado is still likely more than a match for most thanks to his Monado Powers and visions despite his inexperience with firearms.

Shulk seems to be immune to a time stop situation in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...ist=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=1832 at 30:31-30:36 and 30:44-30:54 (the other party members are frozen here).

I’ll start working on a tier list soon.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Gods aren’t capable of finesse now? According to that logic none of the Greek demigods would be born because their mothers wouldn’t survive their encounter with Zeus.

Not when he is threatened by enslavement and Arceus was shown going mad on humans because one person betrayed him and without any doubt another human he doesn't even knows attacking him would be enough to get mad again (probably not as bad as that time).

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Plastic seems pretty likely, seeing as how they're mass-produced, cheap, and have a rather shiny appearance to them. Coin pouches are often made of leather, so this argument is invalid. Plastic electronic devices have metal inside of them, yet they are still plastic and not as tough as metal. In the anime, we get a clear look at the inside of a Pokeball, revealing that they are hollow, so even if they were made of metal, they would be the equivalent of crushing a soda can (which isn't very impressive).

I was talking about the clips on a pouch, they're made of metal. Metal is shiny too. Pokéballs can also grow, you can't be plastic and do that. Not everything metal and hollow can be crushed like a soda can, and even so, crushing three soda cans at once (with one hand) is quite impressive.

 

[Munomario777]

Mario’s fireball attacks move in a straight wave/bouncing line in Super Mario RPG.

Here's a video of the Ultra Flame in action.

Won’t that waste his cape feather according to the mega Mushroom wiki? You want to hit a flying enemy with a dive bombing style attack (comparable to a bomber trying to bomb another bomber in the air)? You’re insane!

A ground pound using a Mega Mushroom is more powerful than the Cape Feather's dive bombing attack (although that can also be quite useful).

Mario’s projectiles bounce in a straight line and Mario RPG has only 8 facings (45 degree angles) which explains the fireballs unusual movement.

See above.

Mario isn’t flying, he’s falling.

No, he's flying with the Cape Feather.

Mewtwo is not made of stone.

Is he tougher than stone, then?

The power of the Monado allows one to change form like in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...v=rfUs8P8PcHw&feature=player_detailpage#t=959 at 15:59-16:22.

Does Shulk ever do this?

When I was mentioning that Shulk could change the Monado from a 2-handed sword to a anti-air gun or Missile launcher I based on him actually knowing what they are as you can find anti-air guns on top of the rebuilt Colony 6 fortress and Shulk can witness Egil using his Talent Art “Homing Missiles IV” in battle at Agniratha. I felt that was going to far but he likely would be able to replicate the other party members weapons instead. He’s made drivers for Reyn (https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...=0YEhVPZjgMk&feature=player_detailpage#t=1022 at 17:02-17:08 and http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/A_Token_of_Friendship) and offered to make a new ether rifle for Sharla which would imply he knows how they function (https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...XRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&v=Oky8wjex41Q#t=1762 at 29:22-29:31). Another interesting thing that happens gameplay wise is that starting from Mechonis Field onward Mechon start dropping anti-Mechon weapons which never happened in previous Mechon infested areas and I suspect Shulk might have something to do with that. Shulk has likely worked on drivers and ether rifles in the past due to how common they are amongst Colony 9 Defense Force soldiers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmM...P040gwIwlhqcP&feature=player_detailpage#t=314 at 5:14-5:24) and likely won’t be clueless on how to use them.
Shulk with an Ether rifle shaped Monado is still likely more than a match for most thanks to his Monado Powers and visions despite his inexperience with firearms.

Does Shulk have the materials required to make those weapons etc. on him at all times?

Shulk seems to be immune to a time stop situation in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...ist=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=1832 at 30:31-30:36 and 30:44-30:54 (the other party members are frozen here).

That's basically Alvis hitting the "pause" button on the party member replicas.

I was talking about the clips on a pouch, they're made of metal.

The pouch clips are metal, but the rest is leather. The Pokeball clip is metal, but the rest is plastic.

Metal is shiny too.

This seems more like plastic to me, but I dunno.

Pokéballs can also grow, you can't be plastic and do that.

Can metal grow?

Not everything metal and hollow can be crushed like a soda can,

But these Pokeballs do.

and even so, crushing three soda cans at once (with one hand) is quite impressive.

It is pretty impressive how he can manipulate them all at once, but that strength won't help much in a combat situation.

 

[Diddy Kong]

@Dryn how do you see beating the Kongs? I argue that both could easily handle her.

 

[Warlock*G]

I said Shantae is the strongest and I'm right. She can beat everyone by dancing!
Debate over.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

I was talking about the clips on a pouch, they're made of metal. Metal is shiny too. Pokéballs can also grow, you can't be plastic and do that. Not everything metal and hollow can be crushed like a soda can, and even so, crushing three soda cans at once (with one hand) is quite impressive.

Thats not how exactly it works. He did not used his hand to crush them. He used psychokinesis, so, each object was held separately, so, its more like crushing 3 sodas while all of them are held in different parts rather than crushing them all at once in one hand.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

The pouch clips are metal, but the rest is leather. The Pokeball clip is metal, but the rest is plastic.

And the clip was also crushed.

Can metal grow?

If there's technology allowing it to.

But these Pokeballs do.

A result of Mewtwo's telekinesis strength, not the durability of the Pokéball.

It is pretty impressive how he can manipulate them all at once, but that strength won't help much in a combat situation.

Even if the Pokéballs are plastic, plastic devices are pretty hard to crush.

Thats not how exactly it works. He did not used his hand to crush them. He used psychokinesis, so, each object was held separately, so, its more like crushing 3 sodas while all of them are held in different parts rather than crushing them all at once in one hand.

He was using one hand to do the crushing. He can't use more than one move at once, so that means he had one field of telekinesis used for all three balls.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

He was using one hand to do the crushing. He can't use more than one move at once, so that means he had one field of telekinesis used for all three balls.

Thats not the same thing as crushing 3 objects in one hand. Telekinesis obviously violates several laws of physics while simple pressure from hand doesn't goes against them. Thats just main difference. And wouldn't he need to concentrate on each object required to perform anything related to telekinesis (as far as i know, this is one of the requirements for that kind of stuff)? Because then, each object would be put under same level of pressure all around its surface. Same can't be done when you use your hand for that since your hand obviously can't cover each object in the same way and apply same level of pressure on each one.

@Dryn how do you see beating the Kongs? I argue that both could easily handle her.

I wouldn't say she can easily handle 800-pounds gorilla that can launch a 3000-pounds crocodile very high in the air with a simple uppercut, but Diddy wouldn't be a problem. Even HOO HAH won't help because he has to grab her first.

 

[Braydon]

wow 5,000 posts...

 

[Crystanium]

@Dryn how do you see beating the Kongs? I argue that both could easily handle her.

Maybe there's more that these two can do that I'm not aware of. I've only played the Donkey Kong Country games (including Donkey Kong Country Returns) and it's been a while since I've played Donkey Kong 64. Zamus may not be on par with Donkey Kong in terms of striking strength, but she is faster and has better reaction time. I know Donkey Kong could use banana juice to become invincible until he's hit ten times, so that could be useful when closing the gap.

The paralyzer, which Zamus carries on her at all times, is capable of stunning her enemies and destroying objects that would require a bomb. Bombs are capable of destroying sandstone, which has a hardness of 6.5 to 7. Diamond is 10. So that might be saying something. It seems the paralyzer is like a wireless, long-range electroshock weapon. It might be firing plasma (making it a plasma taser), but I can only say this based on the way it's portrayed in SSBB and SSB4. (The name "Paralyzer" was first seen in SSBB and then referred to as such in MOM, so don't be ready to dismiss the possibility.)

 

[Munomario777]

And the clip was also crushed.

Soda cans have easily crushable clips. Either way, crushing a hollow Pokéball =/= crushing a human being.

If there's technology allowing it to.

Same with plastic.

A result of Mewtwo's telekinesis strength, not the durability of the Pokéball.

As proven by?

Even if the Pokéballs are plastic, plastic devices are pretty hard to crush.

Not hollow ones like a Pokéball.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Maybe there's more that these two can do that I'm not aware of. I've only played the Donkey Kong Country games (including Donkey Kong Country Returns) and it's been a while since I've played Donkey Kong 64. Zamus may not be on par with Donkey Kong in terms of striking strength, but she is faster and has better reaction time. I know Donkey Kong could use banana juice to become invincible until he's hit ten times, so that could be useful when closing the gap.

The paralyzer, which Zamus carries on her at all times, is capable of stunning her enemies and destroying objects that would require a bomb. Bombs are capable of destroying sandstone, which has a hardness of 6.5 to 7. Diamond is 10. So that might be saying something. It seems the paralyzer is like a wireless, long-range electroshock weapon. It might be firing plasma (making it a plasma taser), but I can only say this based on the way it's portrayed in SSBB and SSB4. (The name "Paralyzer" was first seen in SSBB and then referred to as such in MOM, so don't be ready to dismiss the possibility.)

And Paralyzer shots can be fired at high rate (same as with beams) and since in Other M even uncharged shots can stun for short amount of time, all she really needs to do is hit once and then make sure her thumb won't break while pulling the trigger 500th time. That and avoid getting hit.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Last I checked, the inclusion of mini-games, sidequests, etc. was based on their relation with the story:

The Chao Keys are in the main story missions, the Chao Garden island is on the main story map, main story levels in later games reference it by name, the titular Chao creatures are the main reason for the whole story of Sonic Adventure (seeing as how Chaos is a mutated chao), and there are many more connections to the main story modes. If that's not a minigame that's connected to the story, then I don't know what is.[/quote]

I could argue how it's related to the story, but I can tell that would go nowhere, so I'll just say these things:
Even if you were right about it being a story relevant mini-game, we took a specific vote about Sonic getting the ring total from Chao Garden under rule 23. Everyone but you voted against it.

Well, then the Warp Star would be in the arena due to the vehicle rule.

I assume you're referring to the anime where he gets the Star Rod by eating the Warp Star?

Through one of those magic star doors that work more like portals than actual doors.

-The so called goddess of light has a wide range of powers (including the powerful Mega Laser) as well as some attacks of her own. They're pretty limited though.

You're selling Palutena short on her powers to call them limited, but we can discuss that in the next thread.

-Master of practically all forms of combat, most notably his powerful magic such as Aversa's Night or Thoron

Just wanted to add Lucina can do everything Robin can, so they should be ranked side besides, Lucina likely on top do to having better stats.

-Pretty limited set of moves but is powerful where it counts, PK Rockin' Ω in particular is incredibly powerful

Where's Lucas?

@ Munomario777 , @ Kirby Dragons , @Dryn , @ BaganSmashBros , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @Nerdicon

So are we allowing the Star Fox and Captain Falcon to have their vehicles or not? It seems Dryn is opposed.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

@ Munomario777 , @ Kirby Dragons , @Dryn , @ BaganSmashBros , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @Nerdicon

So are we allowing the Star Fox and Captain Falcon to have their vehicles or not? It seems Dryn is opposed.

Sure. Its a very important part of them.

I have a question too - should Captain Falcon get Falcon Punch? He used it in the anime (it had electric effect on hit though, but i guess we should use more well-known version, with fire and awesomeness) too.

Where's Lucas?

Nowhere. Or at least he was until April 1st.

 

[Munomario777]

I could argue how it's related to the story, but I can tell that would go nowhere, so I'll just say these things:
Even if you were right about it being a story relevant mini-game, we took a specific vote about Sonic getting the ring total from Chao Garden under rule 23. Everyone but you voted against it.

And then we did a recount with a more general definition (story related mini games and such are canon), and IIRC, the majority voted for that to be the case.

 

[Crystanium]

So are we allowing the Star Fox and Captain Falcon to have their vehicles or not? It seems Dryn is opposed.

I'm not opposed, actually. I made it clear that I was ignoring vehicles with the exception of Star Fox characters and Captain Falcon.

As for what material Poke balls are made of, it could be aluminum or plastic of some sort, or both, since both are light and cost-effective. It would be bad to produce Poke balls out of other types of metals, since it might be expensive and/or heavy. Poke balls aren't as thin as soda and beer cans, so they might have a little more give before they can be crushed.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Remember that tier lists are based on how many victories a character on the roster has. The more, the higher. I took a brief guess for all characters below to see how many they'd likely win against. It does not mean that if a character is higher on the tier list, that he/she could not be defeated by one who is lower. For example, Pit could defeat Ganondorf, but Ganondorf would likely perform better when fighting the rest of those on the tier list. Those in the tier list side-by-side are only that way because their are both male and female choices. I also didn't list everyone on the roster because I'm not familiar with most RPG characters.

Only 3 questions:

• Why is Mewtwo not listed? I understand you not ranking the other Pokemon because you might not feel familar enough with them, but I'm confused on Mewtwo.
• If you're not giving the Star Fox characters and Captain Falcon their vehicles, why do have them over ZSS?
• Just curious why you have Mega Man so high. Not saying it's wrong, it's just that's by far the highest anyone has rated him.

Can Pokemon fire off attacks like that in rapid succession? How high does the wave from surf go and how long is it? There is no way in hell that’s the best tidal wave style attack in a Nintendo game (the best attack like that would go to Green Earth CO Drake‘s submerged submarine and airborne bomber hitting CO power Tsunami).
Shulk should be able to use Monado Armor to help take the sting out of Pokemon projectile attacks.
Don’t forget that Shulk can sacrifice half his current health for about half a Talent gauge about every 40 seconds (although this is only practical against weak or easy to dodge projectiles).

I see no reason why they can't fire off attacks rapidly like any other characters.
IDK how big Surf is in the anime, but in Coliseum I believe it got as high as Onix, who is 20 something feet tall.

The power of the Monado allows one to change form like in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...v=rfUs8P8PcHw&feature=player_detailpage#t=959 at 15:59-16:22.
When I was mentioning that Shulk could change the Monado from a 2-handed sword to a anti-air gun or Missile launcher I based on him actually knowing what they are as you can find anti-air guns on top of the rebuilt Colony 6 fortress and Shulk can witness Egil using his Talent Art “Homing Missiles IV” in battle at Agniratha.

This is another good question: should we limit Shulk to only things he's done, or should we let him do things Zanza did as well? Zanza had 2 Monados, but I believe Shulk's true Monado was stronger than both of them...

Sure. Its a very important part of them.

Ok. BTW should we limit Shulk to only things he's done, or should we let him do things Zanza did as well? Zanza had 2 Monados, which gave him more power, but I believe Shulk's true Monado was stronger than both of them...

I have a question too - should Captain Falcon get Falcon Punch? He used it in the anime (it had electric effect on hit though, but i guess we should use more well-known version, with fire and awesomeness) too.

I see no reason why not. What else did he do in the anime?

And then we did a recount with a more general definition (story related mini games and such are canon), and IIRC, the majority voted for that to be the case.

Yes, we did a vote regarding what mini-games and sidequests should be allowed, but the original question of "should Sonic's ring count from the Black Market" be allowed wasn't based off of it being a mini-game. That was just listed as evidence of why it shouldn't have been allowed. Excluding the min-game factor, It was voted he shouldn't be allowed because

• The rings are not specifically Sonic's, their an accumulation of all the rings every playable character collects.
• The max ring total from the Black Market is inconsistent with the max ring total from the rest of the game.
• The rings everyone collects are accumulated there and can be spent by any character. It's more like the rings are credit that all the characters can specifically build up and spend.
• The characters aren't carrying them around. The ring display disappears and only appears in the black market, which is why the limit is so high: because it's a form of store credit, rather than the characters are individually capable of carrying around 999,999 in some magic space for some reason.

I'm not opposed, actually. I made it clear that I was ignoring vehicles with the exception of Star Fox characters and Captain Falcon.

Sorry, I read it as you were ignoring their vehicles too.

As for what material Poke balls are made of, it could be aluminum or plastic of some sort, or both, since both are light and cost-effective. It would be bad to produce Poke balls out of other types of metals, since it might be expensive and/or heavy. Poke balls aren't as thin as soda and beer cans, so they might have a little more give before they can be crushed.

Yes, but it's not proof enough that they Mewtwo can crush people with his telekinesis.

As for ZSS vs DK, she could probably beat him if she can avoid getting hit. Thing is, DK's pretty agile as well, plus he can attack with sound waves by attacking, and has a peanut gun he can fire (albeit not at a high rate to my knowledge) to counter the paralyzer.
I feel like he only has to hit her a few times before she is unconscious or dead.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ ShadowLBlue He should be able to do the general things Zanza did. I mean, Zanza did those things with a power that Shulk has. Shulk using the power is also stronger than Zanza using the power, opening the door for stronger feats.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Ok. BTW should we limit Shulk to only things he's done, or should we let him do things Zanza did as well? Zanza had 2 Monados, which gave him more power, but I believe Shulk's true Monado was stronger than both of them...

He should be able to do only what he could do.

I see no reason why not. What else did he do in the anime?

He was being your common mysterious hero guy. Thats all i remember.

As for ZSS vs DK, she could probably beat him if she can avoid getting hit. Thing is, DK's pretty agile as well, plus he can attack with sound waves by attacking, and has a peanut gun he can fire (albeit not at a high rate to my knowledge) to counter the paralyzer.
I feel like he only has to hit her a few times before she is unconscious or dead.

Not as agile as ZSS since she can jump as high as she can in the suit with hi-jump boots acquired and she also has great reaction time/speed/whatever, so, avoiding attacks won't be a problem and that will put DK in danger of getting shot with paralyzer.

 

[Munomario777]

Yes, we did a vote regarding what mini-games and sidequests should be allowed, but the original question of "should Sonic's ring count from the Black Market" be allowed wasn't based off of it being a mini-game. That was just listed as evidence of why it shouldn't have been allowed. Excluding the min-game factor, It was voted he shouldn't be allowed because

• The rings are not specifically Sonic's, their an accumulation of all the rings every playable character collects.
• The max ring total from the Black Market is inconsistent with the max ring total from the rest of the game.
• The rings everyone collects are accumulated there and can be spent by any character. It's more like the rings are credit that all the characters can specifically build up and spend.
• The characters aren't carrying them around. The ring display disappears and only appears in the black market, which is why the limit is so high: because it's a form of store credit, rather than the characters are individually capable of carrying around 999,999 in some magic space for some reason.

And then we did a re-vote (as in, a do-over vote) about the concept in general, and it was passed. As for the points you're making:

• Yet Sonic is holding them all at once (and they could all potentially be collected by Sonic as opposed to Tails or Knuckles if you chose to do that).
• Because levels usually don't have that many Rings to begin with.
• Except there's no sign of any credit card scanners or anything to that effect.
• I don't see how holding that many Rings is a problem when he can already hold 9,999 in Unleashed.

 

[Crystanium]

Only 3 questions:

• Why is Mewtwo not listed? I understand you not ranking the other Pokemon because you might not feel familar enough with them, but I'm confused on Mewtwo.
• If you're not giving the Star Fox characters and Captain Falcon their vehicles, why do have them over ZSS?
• Just curious why you have Mega Man so high. Not saying it's wrong, it's just that's by far the highest anyone has rated him.

That's pretty much the reason. I took a look at the TMs he learns on his own and didn't feel he was capable enough to keep up with Samus pages ago. (This had to do with a few people saying Mewtwo would defeat Samus, so I responded to those comments.) This was also strictly based on the games, not on other media. I'm really not sure how well he'd do against others on the roster. If we take into consideration the TMs he could learn outside of what he'd normally learn as he leveled up, then I'm sure he'd be higher.

If we're using composite forms, then Mega Man would be quite powerful. This is a discussion I had with theobserver on FactPile. In fact, Mega Man might possibly be able to be at the very top with Sonic in second place, due to his ability to stop time more effectively than Sonic.

 

[FooltheFlames]

I'd say either Lunk or Mew2... maybe Ness?

Mew2 and Ness are psychic, and Ness has overcome many great evils-
Like Link. And you cant really kill Link for good if he has a bunch of bottles full of fairies right? What other character can keep constantly raising from the dead?

 

[BaganSmashBros]

I'd say either Lunk or Mew2... maybe Ness?

Mew2 and Ness are psychic, and Ness has overcome many great evils-
Like Link. And you cant really kill Link for good if he has a bunch of bottles full of fairies right? What other character can keep constantly raising from the dead?

Ness by himself isn't that powerful (Gyigas wasn't defeated by him or any of the members of his party and neither was Porky).
Link has other means of winning and fairies can't revive him forever. Ganon-dieing is for scrubs-dorf, Samus "Who the hell made those weapons" Aran and Mewtwo are among those who can anyhow handle him, but then there are Magic Cape and that booze that gives him 3 days of unlimited magic, so...

 

[Kirby Dragons]

That's pretty much the reason. I took a look at the TMs he learns on his own and didn't feel he was capable enough to keep up with Samus pages ago. (This had to do with a few people saying Mewtwo would defeat Samus, so I responded to those comments.) This was also strictly based on the games, not on other media. I'm really not sure how well he'd do against others on the roster. If we take into consideration the TMs he could learn outside of what he'd normally learn as he leveled up, then I'm sure he'd be higher.

All of the Pokemon are using their TMs.

If we're using composite forms, then Mega Man would be quite powerful. This is a discussion I had with theobserver on FactPile. In fact, Mega Man might possibly be able to be at the very top with Sonic in second place, due to his ability to stop time more effectively than Sonic.

Mega Man can only use his classic weapons here. His classic time stopping prevents him from attacking, so not that effective.

 

[Crystanium]

All of the Pokemon are using their TMs.

Mega Man can only use his classic weapons here. His classic time stopping prevents him from attacking, so not that effective.

Their TMs they learn from leveling up, or all TMs they're capable of learning?

Only time stopper prevents him from attacking, actually. This doesn't matter, since Mega Man can use these to stop time and close the gap, allowing him to then deliver powerful attacks like firestorm, which produces temperatures of up to 7,000 to 8,000°C, or atomic fire, which produces 12,000°C. No one on the roster has ever demonstrated the ability to withstand these temperatures. There's Samus, who only receives 70 damage from the blue flame produced by Dragotix with just the power suit alone, which would put that at 12,000 K (11,726.9°C). Even that would kill Samus if Mega Man battled in this manner.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I recently played Uprising again, and watched the anime shorts, and have come to the conclusion that even with her high rating, she is underrated. I'm going to do a long breakdown of what makes her so awesome. Because I don't expect anyone to read all of this, I'm bolding the most notable ones.

General Powers:

• Power of Caging: Sends several dozen beams of lights with some homing capabilities at foe that entrap them in cages like this, but with thick bars.
• Power of Maelstorm: Can summon a downpour, thunderstorm and high speed winds that can move an unmoving or slow moving person.
• Astral Projection: Can make a giant (several stories high) projection. While doing so, she threw several giant islands floating nearby at Pit, however she didn't touch them, so she likely moved them with strong wind gusts.
• Force Field: Made a giant force field that could only be broken through with Pit riding the lightning chariot at full speed. I'll presume it's max speed is the same as lightning (670million mph) since: it's called the lightning chariot and it's used to travel throughout the galaxy. Also seems to be one way since she was still sending out her troops to attack Pit and Earth.
• Heat immunity: States Gods are less flammable and takes multiple explosions to the face withouts signs of damage or appearing to be in pain afterwords
• Palutena's Bow: Charged shot 176ft. Continuous shots 111ft. Gets stronger over distance.
• Wolf Claws: Charged shot goes 78ft and homes onto opponents, still shot goes 65. Causes burning effect. Melee strikes twice as powerful as shots.
• Agility: The aim wasn't great on all of them, but she dodged vegetables being shot out like bullets without any powers. Also rather athletic, capable of doing flips and stuff
• Vehicle creation: Capable of making a variety of vehicles appear like a roughly 12 ft tall mech that can fire energy balls rapidly and a exobike (motorcycle that shoots out beams). Wouldn't help her, but could give them to her Centurions
• Centurions: 3 kinds she can summon. All Fly faster and more agile (i.e. dodge better) than Pit. She can revive them as well.
  • Basic centurion: Shoot bows and arrows.
  • Centurion Strongarms: On ground segments they attack using punches and powerful pile drivers, but in flying sections (and while engaging at long range) they attack by throwing large dumbbells. they attack using punches and powerful pile drivers, but in flying sections (and while engaging Pit at long range) they attack by throwing large dumbbells. Very muscular, nearly 10ft tall
  • The Centurion Knights,specialize in wielding a halberd and shield. Wear shining clad armour and helmets, making them tougher than the usual soldier. Weaker than Centurion Strongarms, but more intelligent. Centurion Knights can be defeated in one hit by attacking their backs, otherwise their shields must be destroyed, revealing the body to be attacked.
• Binding: Binds a several stories high Medusa that not only keeps her from moving, but stops her from teleporting as well!
• Glam Blaster: Fires a gigantic beam from sky that destroys a dragon head. Takes 16 seconds to reach that level, but she notes that she could have stopped charging earlier if she wanted to. Could be VERY useful in combination with her barrier.

Light Attacks:

• Floating Triple Light Volley: 3 balls of light float horizontally in front of her head (and move with her if she does) that can fire 3 consecutive shots out of them
• Triple Light Volley: Same as above, but fired from staff rather than floating light balls
• Light machine gun: Fires 9 consecutive balls of light from one that floats over her head.
• Halo: a slow moving halo that can fire 3 fast light balls.
• Flash: raises her shield for defense and after 2 seconds, unleashes a blinding light that lasts 3 seconds.
• Light speed dash: Doesn't go at light speed, but does move extremely fast while she's covered in a beam of light.
  • I'd estimate all of the above go about 196ft, but need to retest to be sure.
• Counter: Unlike the Power version, this one seems more conscious and involves her spinning in a circle while giving off a burst of light.

Finally, her more notable Powers. Note: powers from same category can't be used at same time.

Attack

• Mega Laser - Fire a massive laser for 6 seconds that travels about 492 feet (for reference, that’s 1.6 football fields)
• Meteor Shower - Release a deluge of shooting stars. In an area about 5 feet wide, 33 feet long, 8 meteors attack in the span of 3 seconds, causing explosions as big as listed, and about 12 feet high. Ideally used about 50 feet away because too far or too close, and some or all will miss.
• Explosive Flame - Power bomb on steroids. Set off a massive explosion that lasts about 6 about and expands to about 62 feet in diameter. Starts off about half of that.
• Black Hole - Create a black hole that pulls enemies toward it.
• Heavenly Light - Covers you in light in ridiculously tall light pillar but only does minor damage

Recover:

• Health Recovery - Recover about 50% health.
• Pisces Heal- When taking lethal damage, the user is automatically healed by the same amount of damage that would normally be inflicted by the fatal attack
• Effect Recovery - Dispel status ailments
• Crisis Recovery - Recover instantly from Crisis mode (basically 1 hp left)

Enhance

• Weak-Point Reticle - Target enemies' weak points automatically when attacking.
• Shake Attack - Attacks inflicting a shaking status on a foe, so it has a harder time aiming. Projectile users beware!
• Slip Shot - Fire shots that pass through solid objects, like walls. Lasts 20 seconds
• Confuse Attack - Attacks inflict a confused status on a foe, which makes it move and shoot unpredictably. Enhancement lasts 16 seconds, confusion status lasts 6 seconds.
• Freeze Attack- May freeze foes. Lasts about 16 seconds; foes freeze for 4. Needs further testing, but froze target enemy on like 3 of 5 shots.
• Invisible shots - Makes the shots you fire invisible. Lasts about 20 seconds
• Libra Sponge – For 28 seconds, Use attacks received to increase the strength of your own attacks.
• Energy Charge - Build up energy and increase the power of your attacks. Taking damage nullifies this effect. Increases attack strength by 80%. IDK how long the upper limit is, I quit timing after a minute.

Buff

• Bumblebee - Dodge all attacks by vanishing and circling around the enemy in an instant. Lasts 24 seconds
• Counter: When attacked you will automatically retaliate. Also prevents knockback. Differs from hers in that it’s done automatically. Turned into a reflex, you could say. Lasts 24 seconds.
• Playing Dead – For 8 seconds, Fool enemies into thinking you're finished, then turn invisible, making attacks pass through you. Palutena can still attack.

MOVEMENT

• Aries Armor - Reduces damage received, and prevents status effects and getting knocked back.
• Rocket Jump - Launch yourself upward (roughly 11 feet) with the force of a rocket that’s causes an explosion about 32 feet in diameter. Good way to dodge some melee attacks and hit foes.
• Super Speed - Run extremely fast and knock weakened foes into the air when you bump into them. Presumably, should double her flying/levitating speed as well.

Item

Item vacuum: Draws items towards you. Not sure about range, but since it's the only item power, she can just wear it throughout battle to keep the Mario characters from transforming.

This took a REALLY long time to type, so I'll have to respond to any posts later. But in the meantime, I think you all need to boost Palutena up on your tier lists.

BTW, since we're allowing all summons, shouldn't Palutena get to summon Pit @Nerdicon , @ Munomario777 , @Dryn , @ Kirby Dragons , @ BaganSmashBros , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 ? Just because he's fighting should count, since technically Charizard and Pikachu are on here and also Red's team (I know that their a whole species of them). I think as long as she's not fighting Pit, she should be able to summon Pit.

 

[Munomario777]

Stuff about Palutena

I don't think that Item Vacuum would be able to get the Mario Bros.' items, since they're not really present (they're just applied instantaneously), but you make good points here. I'll go back and bump her up a little bit.

BTW, since we're allowing all summons, shouldn't Palutena get to summon Pit @Nerdicon , @ Munomario777 , @Dryn , @ Kirby Dragons , @ BaganSmashBros , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 ? Just because he's fighting should count, since technically Charizard and Pikachu are on here and also Red's team (I know that their a whole species of them). I think as long as she's not fighting Pit, she should be able to summon Pit.

Can Palutena make Pit appear out of thin air?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@Dryn All TMs they're capable of learning.
@ ShadowLBlue If summoning Pit is something she can actually do, I don't see why not.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Here's a video of the Ultra Flame in action.

Is he tougher than stone, then?

Does Shulk ever do this?

Does Shulk have the materials required to make those weapons etc. on him at all times?

That's basically Alvis hitting the "pause" button on the party member replicas.

I forgot that Mario could hit multiple enemies with Ultra Flame. I’m not sure I can attribute this to the bounce or actual homing abilities.

My point being stone and flesh and blood tend to react differently to different stresses (for example stone can‘t bend).

No, why would he? If Shulk wants to look sillier than Zanza then he can just mix and match any heavy armor pieces.

Assuming he hasn’t sold them in the course of his adventure than yes, he does have 1/7th of the party’s ridiculous hammerspace inventory on him. I brought up that point to backup previous claims that he could shift the Monado into an ether rifle form due to the fact that he has been working as a weapons engineer for the Colony 9 Defense Force.

The party member replicas are at 29:04-30:30 in the video, and Alvis mentions “This world has little time remaining if left in this state” at 30:55-30:59 so the entire world is likely paused with the exception of Shulk and Alvis.

@ Munomario777 , @ Kirby Dragons , @Dryn , @ BaganSmashBros , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @Nerdicon

So are we allowing the Star Fox and Captain Falcon to have their vehicles or not? It seems Dryn is opposed.

Captain Falcon and the Star Fox members (and Wolf too) can have their vehicles (I‘m not sure about the mothership Great Fox though and leaning against that).

IDK how big Surf is in the anime, but in Coliseum I believe it got as high as Onix, who is 20 something feet tall.

This is another good question: should we limit Shulk to only things he's done, or should we let him do things Zanza did as well? Zanza had 2 Monados, but I believe Shulk's true Monado was stronger than both of them...

Ok. BTW should we limit Shulk to only things he's done, or should we let him do things Zanza did as well? Zanza had 2 Monados, which gave him more power, but I believe Shulk's true Monado was stronger than both of them...

Impressive, but Shulk can swim.

For what it’s worth the very 1st thing Klaus and Meyneth did was incarnate as the Bionis and Mechonis respectively and create living beings a short time after that shown here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfU...ist=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=1585 at 26:25-26:47. That would imply that experience or a lack of isn’t much of an issue. The main benefit with having 2 Monados for Zanza was that he could continue to exist without a body for an indefinite period of time and the extra power comes more from lacking Meyneth to oppose him. In regards to Shulk’s Monado being more powerful than Zanza’s two, I can say that it’s power was drawn from 7 people (Shulk and the rest of the party), the entire blade shines translucently unlike the more solid Monados Zanza is wielding and the fact that Shulk manages to curbstomp Zanza even harder than Zanza stomped Meyneth.

I don't see how holding that many Rings is a problem when he can already hold 9,999 in Unleashed.

A factor of a 100 is a pretty big leap.

Mega Man can only use his classic weapons here. His classic time stopping prevents him from attacking, so not that effective.

Mega Man can use it to slip behind his enemy before hitting with a different weapon (effectively teleporting from the opponents point of view). How long can he use before it runs out of power?

Only time stopper prevents him from attacking, actually. This doesn't matter, since Mega Man can use these to stop time and close the gap, allowing him to then deliver powerful attacks like firestorm, which produces temperatures of up to 7,000 to 8,000°C, or atomic fire, which produces 12,000°C. No one on the roster has ever demonstrated the ability to withstand these temperatures. There's Samus, who only receives 70 damage from the blue flame produced by Dragotix with just the power suit alone, which would put that at 12,000 K (11,726.9°C). Even that would kill Samus if Mega Man battled in this manner.

Firestorm and Atomic Fire can’t be that impressive because they can’t OHKO the robot masters (the other “mans”).

 

[Munomario777]

I forgot that Mario could hit multiple enemies with Ultra Flame. I’m not sure I can attribute this to the bounce or actual homing abilities.

It seems like a homing ability to me.

My point being stone and flesh and blood tend to react differently to different stresses (for example stone can‘t bend).

Seeing as how Mario can plow through enemies the same way he does through stone, it shouldn't pose much of a problem.

No, why would he? If Shulk wants to look sillier than Zanza then he can just mix and match any heavy armor pieces.

If Shulk hasn't done it, then we can't assume he could.

Assuming he hasn’t sold them in the course of his adventure than yes, he does have 1/7th of the party’s ridiculous hammerspace inventory on him. I brought up that point to backup previous claims that he could shift the Monado into an ether rifle form due to the fact that he has been working as a weapons engineer for the Colony 9 Defense Force.

I see. Can he craft weapons and such mid-battle?

The party member replicas are at 29:04-30:30 in the video, and Alvis mentions “This world has little time remaining if left in this state” at 30:55-30:59 so the entire world is likely paused with the exception of Shulk and Alvis.

I'd imagine this was intentional on Alvis's part; it's rather hard to have a conversation with someone who is frozen in time, after all.

Impressive, but Shulk can swim.

So can many water-type Pokemon, yet this attack still damages them.

A factor of a 100 is a pretty big leap.

My point is that physical capacity doesn't seem to be an issue here; if it was, then Sonic wouldn't be able to hold even 999 Rings.

 

[Crystanium]

Mega Man can use it to slip behind his enemy before hitting with a different weapon (effectively teleporting from the opponents point of view). How long can he use before it runs out of power?

Firestorm and Atomic Fire can’t be that impressive because they can’t OHKO the robot masters (the other “mans”).

The link I gave should help answer the question of the duration for Mega Man's time freezing abilities. He should have a total of three different kinds.

Mega Man can die just by falling in lava and lava doesn't reach that temperature. Getting hit by these attacks won't kill him and their flame attacks aren't white or blue. That might have been overlooked, but yeah. 700 to 800°C and 1,200°C would be more consistent with color temperature.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

If Shulk hasn't done it, then we can't assume he could.

Except we can, because Shulk has the power that was used to do it (on a stronger level, even). It's like saying that if I've thrown a punch, but my sister hasn't, then my sister can't throw a punch.

So can many water-type Pokemon, yet this attack still damages them.

Logically, Shulk would be able to make himself immune to water.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

@Dryn , my bad I misinterpreted your post as saying you're opposed to Star Fox and Captain Falcon characters getting their vehicles. But in that case, shouldn't both Star Fox characters be above Marth?
I'm also surprised you didn't rank Mewtwo.

I have a question too - should Captain Falcon get Falcon Punch? He used it in the anime (it had electric effect on hit though, but i guess we should use more well-known version, with fire and awesomeness) too.

I think so. What else did he do in the anime that he can bring here?

He should be able to do only what he could do.

So it's 2-1 (Reckless-G and Kirby Dragon's being For it.)

He was being your common mysterious hero guy. Thats all i remember.

K.

Not as agile as ZSS since she can jump as high as she can in the suit with hi-jump boots acquired and she also has great reaction time/speed/whatever, so, avoiding attacks won't be a problem and that will put DK in danger of getting shot with paralyzer.

True, but I still am not sure who wins just because DK only has to land a few blows to kill/K.O. her. I'd give ZSS the edge, but it's probably only like 55-45 in favor of ZSS.

I don't think that Item Vacuum would be able to get the Mario Bros.' items, since they're not really present (they're just applied instantaneously), but you make good points here. I'll go back and bump her up a little bit.

Can Palutena make Pit appear out of thin air?

She can summon him from practically any distance with a magic beam of light, even if he's in a physical space with no openings.

And then we did a re-vote (as in, a do-over vote) about the concept in general, and it was passed.

But like I said, the concept was not based strictly on it being a mini-game so the do-over vote did not over turn it. When Dryn voted against it, the word "mini-game" or "sidequest" wasn't used. Look:

@ ShadowLBlue I think Sonic should get the amount he can hold from a single game. If his ring count is exceeding what is portrayed in the games because all his rings he can carry from different games are being added together so that he ends up with 99,999 rings, that should not be allowed, unless characters like Link will get to hold more, which seems to be the case. Then that should mean Samus should get to hold more than 20 energy tanks and more than 255 missiles.

Granted, he mixed up games and levels but still.
Nonetheless, besides the points I already made and make below, I don't care to about this, since it wasn't actually my proposal. I can see you want a revote so, @Dryn , @Nerdicon , @ BaganSmashBros , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @ Kirby Dragons , have any of you changed you're mind on Sonic getting the ring count available at the Black Market as compared to his highest ring count (Sonic Unleashed) in an Action mode/actual adventure level?
EDIT: Sounds like Reckless is still opposed.

• Yet Sonic is holding them all at once (and they could all potentially be collected by Sonic as opposed to Tails or Knuckles if you chose to do that).
• Because levels usually don't have that many Rings to begin with.
• Except there's no sign of any credit card scanners or anything to that effect.
• I don't see how holding that many Rings is a problem when he can already hold 9,999 in Unleashed.

• Not specifically Sonic, any character who goes to the black market has that many rings. Also, Sonic only has 5 levels (gifting him all the rings from final Story level), so the most he could actually collect is 4,995.
• They also don't have 999 rings, naturally, you have to use the Back ring to warp back to the beginning of the stage which resets the rings and lets you collect rings again.
• That's not what I meant, I mean that's likely where they are stored since the characters are not seen carrying them on their body.
• Reckless Goodwin proposed this not me. Direct any venom at him.

Impressive, but Shulk can swim.

....so can other Water types, but they still get damaged. It's an actual attack, it's not just a wave coming at you.

For what it’s worth the very 1st thing Klaus and Meyneth did was incarnate as the Bionis and Mechonis respectively and create living beings a short time after that shown here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfU...ist=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=1585 at 26:25-26:47. That would imply that experience or a lack of isn’t much of an issue. The main benefit with having 2 Monados for Zanza was that he could continue to exist without a body for an indefinite period of time and the extra power comes more from lacking Meyneth to oppose him. In regards to Shulk’s Monado being more powerful than Zanza’s two, I can say that it’s power was drawn from 7 people (Shulk and the rest of the party), the entire blade shines translucently unlike the more solid Monados Zanza is wielding and the fact that Shulk manages to curbstomp Zanza even harder than Zanza stomped Meyneth.

True, but we don't really know what all it can do once it morphs. It'll be hard to have discussions if every Shulk counter is something like "he can do anything to counter because he can form the Monado into an unbreakable shield". It's just too much specualtion for me. I'm cool for letting him do anything with Monado Zanza did, but I'd be against him morphing it since we never see it happen. FYI, does Zanza just naturally have wings, or was that a product of the Monado?

Assuming I've interpreted Muno's comment correctly, it's currently 3-1 for Shulk being able to use Zanza's displayed powers (mutating into a grotesque mixed species being, these powers. What do you think @ BaganSmashBros , @Dryn , @Nerdicon .
Here's the general argument: Zanza can do a variety of things Shulk doesn't do even after Shulk generally unlocks the Monado, although that could be ignorance on Shulk's part. Shulk eventually gets the Monado III, which is on par, if not better than both of the other Monado's combined. So theoretically, he should be able to use any move Zanza does.

I skimmed over that post on Megaman vs Samus and took away this:

• 3 time stops, but @Dryn I looked at the wiki and youtube, and Flash Stopper only works on mechanical enemies, and going off of Youtube, Centaur Flash freezes Mega man too, although it could be useful for being able to see a fast approaching object coming. Time Stopper: appears to be the only one that would work. Freezes time for 10 seconds max
• Has 10 weapon tanks to replenish all energy to his special attacks, one Super tank that fully restores HP and restores all special weapons powers, a Mystery Tank that does the same thing, and 9 E-tanks that heal all health.
• 3 kinds of attack nullifiers:
  • Skull barrier: Can block 3 attacks. 14 Uses
  • Plant Barrier: blocks any attack but only takes 1 hit. Offensively, it does damage and extra damage against shields, armored foes, and most interestingly invulnerable foes. Hits opponent several times before vanishing. 7 uses.
  • Jewel Sattelite: Blocks most projectiles (I presume not powerful ones), lasts until it touches a tough, invulnerable, or guarding enemy. 7 uses.
  • Star Crash: Block all projectiles. Takes 10 hits or can be shot 14 times.

I just went over his defense, healing and time stops. Too much to read/study his quadrillion offensive moves. Nonetheless, he deserves a higher rank on tier list.

 

[Munomario777]

Except we can, because Shulk has the power that was used to do it (on a stronger level, even). It's like saying that if I've thrown a punch, but my sister hasn't, then my sister can't throw a punch.

The difference here is that you've been shown to be able to throw a punch (which is a near universal trait of human beings), while Shulk hasn't been shown to perform this character specific (AFAIK) action.

Logically, Shulk would be able to make himself immune to water.

Has he done this before?

She can summon him from practically any distance with a magic beam of light, even if he's in a physical space with no openings.

I see. I'm not sure if we should allow teleportation-based summons, since that is outside help being brought in, as opposed to help actually being created. If we are allowing this, though, then Sonic could also get Shadow to come help via Chaos Control.

But like I said, the concept was not based strictly on it being a mini-game so the do-over vote did not over turn it. When Dryn voted against it, the word "mini-game" or "sidequest" wasn't used. Look:

And? That doesn't mean that it's not a part of a bigger rule. When I proposed the mini games/side quests rule, I made it clear that it was an extension of the Chao Garden deal.

Granted, he mixed up games and levels but still.
Nonetheless, besides the points I already made and make below, I don't care to about this, since it wasn't actually my proposal. I can see you want a revote so, @Dryn , @Nerdicon , @ BaganSmashBros , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @ Kirby Dragons , have any of you changed you're mind on Sonic getting the ring count available at the Black Market as compared to his highest ring count (Sonic Unleashed) in an Action mode/actual adventure level?
EDIT: Sounds like Reckless is still opposed.

Sounds good, although I'd like to point out that the mini game/side quest rule would allow Chao Garden itself to be valid; the question now is if the Ring count portrayed in it is applicable here (again, working with Chao Garden being a reliable source of information).

• Not specifically Sonic, any character who goes to the black market has that many rings. Also, Sonic only has 5 levels (gifting him all the rings from final Story level), so the most he could actually collect is 4,995.
• They also don't have 999 rings, naturally, you have to use the Back ring to warp back to the beginning of the stage which resets the rings and lets you collect rings again.
• That's not what I meant, I mean that's likely where they are stored since the characters are not seen carrying them on their body.
• Reckless Goodwin proposed this not me. Direct any venom at him.

• Tails can hold the same amount of Rings as Sonic in Sonic 3. Your point? Sonic can replay stages to get more Rings; otherwise reaching 999,999 would be impossible.
• Levels can have Rings in the hundreds, so they brought it up to 999 to maximize the three digits. The back rings are only in the Chaotix missions of Sonic Heroes, and don't appear in SA2.
• And? You don't see Sonic wearing them in action stages either.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

BTW, since we're allowing all summons, shouldn't Palutena get to summon Pit @Nerdicon , @ Munomario777 , @Dryn , @ Kirby Dragons , @ BaganSmashBros , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 ? Just because he's fighting should count, since technically Charizard and Pikachu are on here and also Red's team (I know that their a whole species of them). I think as long as she's not fighting Pit, she should be able to summon Pit.

Thats ridicolous and PKM Trainer just can't fight any other way and its a major part of his character.

I can see you want a revote so, @Dryn , @Nerdicon , @ BaganSmashBros , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @ Kirby Dragons , have any of you changed you're mind on Sonic getting the ring count available at the Black Market as compared to his highest ring count (Sonic Unleashed) in an Action mode/actual adventure level?

No.

Assuming I've interpreted Muno's comment correctly, it's currently 3-1 for Shulk being able to use Zanza's displayed powers (mutating into a grotesque mixed species being, these powers. What do you think @ BaganSmashBros , @Dryn , @Nerdicon .
Here's the general argument: Zanza can do a variety of things Shulk doesn't do even after Shulk generally unlocks the Monado, although that could be ignorance on Shulk's part. Shulk eventually gets the Monado III, which is on par, if not better than both of the other Monado's combined. So theoretically, he should be able to use any move Zanza does.

Even if he can do that, it doesn't means he knows how to do that. Thats the point.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

The difference here is that you've been shown to be able to throw a punch (which is a near universal trait of human beings), while Shulk hasn't been shown to perform this character specific (AFAIK) action.

You got that mixed up there. I'm not being compared to Shulk, my sister is. Since my sister has an arm and a hand, she can throw a punch whether she's done it or not. Since Shulk has a Monado, he can use self-ether manipulation whether he's done it or not.

Has he done this before?

It's impossible for them to show every single thing Shulk can do with ether manipulation, you know.

I see. I'm not sure if we should allow teleportation-based summons, since that is outside help being brought in, as opposed to help actually being created. If we are allowing this, though, then Sonic could also get Shadow to come help via Chaos Control.

In my opinion, as long as the fighter can get the help to come to the arena without them being conscious, then it's fair game.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

You got that mixed up there. I'm not being compared to Shulk, my sister is. Since my sister has an arm and a hand, she can throw a punch whether she's done it or not. Since Shulk has a Monado, he can use self-ether manipulation whether he's done it or not.

There is a better comparison:
Human A and Human B can (i mean their bodies allow that) drive a car, but only A knows how to drive it. B has to learn how to do it and thats the only thing preventing him from driving it.
Same thing is here.