Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Kirby Dragons]

@ Reckless Godwin 2.0
I got Fire-Type from the explosives and gun.
@ Nerdicon
The Monado can also give control over immaterial things, so Shulk might be able to control time and counter Sonic. Not too sure, though.

 

[Munomario777]

Yeah, one that keeps failing due to Mewtwo's teleportation and levitation. This is basically like Link, Mario's not going to spam the same attack over and over if it never works.

I don't see why not, if he has enough of them. Anyway, once Mewtwo stops teleporting to dodge attacks (which would happen, since each dodge requires two uses of the move and Mario has an expansive enough arsenal/supply of life restores), Mario can go in for the kill.

He can change ether, which is something he is made of. Here are a few quotes from Xenoblade Wiki.
The Monado is a powerful energy blade that can manipulate the ether around it, and with it, change the material and immaterial shape of the world. The use of the Monado depends on the will of its user; most Homs who try to use the sword cannot control it. At the beginning of the game, the Monado cannot harm any Homs from Bionis.

Ether is the building block of all life in the universe of Xenoblade Chronicles. Ether is needed for everything to survive on Bionis, from Zanza to Homs. It is said many times that Ether is the base unit of life and that without it, living beings die.

Since ether makes up life, and Shulk is life, and the Monado can manipulate ether, Shulk can manipulate himself.

Has Shulk been shown to do this?

Well, considering NPCs don't receive damage from any of Link's weapons (though Cuccos do), it's likely they wouldn't receive damage if placed on lava.

...because they're not meant to come in contact with lava, and thus they're not coded to interact with it at all.

I assumed the power bomb was a thermobaric weapon because it produces a high heat wave capable of melting metals with high melting points. Considering the power bomb can be used under water may tell us it's not a thermobaric weapon, however, meaning that we would otherwise have a temperature from a nuclear explosion ranging anywhere from 6,000 to 10,000,000 K (5,726.85 to 9,999,730°C).

How did you calculate the Power Bomb's specific heat output?

Where did you get nuclear explosions from? I doubt that's what Samus is using if the environments are often intact after she uses one.

No; I'm demonstrating that if Samus can run supersonic, and if her missiles travel faster than her, then her missiles travel faster than the speed of sound as well.

Samus is slowed down because the Super Nintendo doesn't have blast processing the console simply wouldn't be able to handle supersonic speeds, nor would the level design. If Samus's lack of supersonic velocity is because of those reasons, then we'll need other evidence that the Missiles move that fast.

Oh I just remembered this scene ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...v=H-5rhe7ekhA&feature=player_detailpage#t=920 )! Shulk could just have the Monado morph into a more useful form like an anti-air gun or Missile Launcher (Example of the Monado morphing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...XRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&v=OUNiW6HaqhE#t=1433 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...XRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&v=OUNiW6HaqhE#t=1833 )! The only thing holding him back is he only has experience with swords.

When has Shulk morphed the Monado into an anti-air gun or a missile launcher?

If we can get Bind or Purge (even Slow can be crippling if we use gameplay Sonic) to proc hitting Sonic would be laughably easy!

I beg to differ. Even if Sonic did somehow get the above status effects (which I doubt because of reflexes and Super Sonic), he can still move around just fine, thanks to Chaos Control. It's basically a teleportation ability that uses the Chaos Emeralds, and could allow Sonic to easily dodge Shulk's attacks.

We still have to determine the offensive potency of ramming into someone while invincible. Wouldn’t invincibility hit many times when running into someone?

I'd imagine so, but I'm not sure how that works on bosses. Super Sonic doesn't have that property, but that's mainly due to the bosses having invincibility frames.

I say we accept the fact that Link stores his inventory in hammerspace (he’s a Time Lord) because he never slows down when he gets new equipment like the iron boots. It is possible to steal from there like when Skull Kid does in Majora’s Mask and I believe another instance happened oracle of Ages.

Sounds good.

We already know about the 6 digit rings in Chao garden, I want to see his most impressive ring count against the most potent bosses.

Why does it matter whether or not it's in a boss fight?

Sonic won’t be doing any accelerating while under Bind or Purge’s effect.

He will be teleporting, though.

If Sonic can’t move he can’t dodge, simple as that.

Chaos Control.

The Arachno Queen rebounds off Monado Shield( https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&v=imKVglbON1w#t=222 ). Are you saying Sonic won’t suffer a similar issue like that when he barrels full force into Shield?

(Around the 33:00 mark)
When Sonic uses the Homing Attack on a shielding opponent, he can act soon afterwards, and he gets launched upwards, which might give Shulk a hard time hitting him.

Shulk can hit him after Sonic takes spike damage but before his feet touch the ground (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=N6tSowlt7E4#t=237). Can Sonic consistently evade Ether, Special or Magical attacks?

Besides the fact that he would likely be in Super Sonic form by this point, Sonic also has an upgrade called "Sure-Footed", which helps him recover after being hit.

I’m against teleporting cheap victories and besides Mewtwo will beat most of the cast without it anyway.

Okay, then.

Hey you either lose money or you lose your life.

Sonic is quite the risk taker.

First video: Alvis says “stop it in its tracks” at 27:57-27:58, and he completely stops the Telethia from 28:12 to 28:26 which is about how long Monado Purge lasts in gameplay(14.5 seconds). Second video: Shulk uses a Purge variant to pin the Telethia from 16:10-16:32 so his allies can land some physical type blows on it. Without Purge sealing the Telethia’s Soul Read ( http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Soul_Read ) aura they wouldn’t even be able to hit it at all.

Okay, then. Chaos Control will work fine.

http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Talent_Gauge

That says nothing about any lack of a cooldown.

The Monado has the Power to control the very fabric of the world ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...=x5b3h5Ib4Lo&feature=player_detailpage#t=1171 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...v=H-5rhe7ekhA&feature=player_detailpage#t=904 ). Creating living beings blows the Chaos and Master Emeralds out of the water ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...ist=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=1594 )

Timestamps please?

Yeah right, Sonic conveniently ran out of rings at the exact moment Knuckles ambushed him. Technically that would have killed him and how come nobody brings up the fact Knuckles grabbed the Emeralds off the ground without Sonic doing a thing?

Knuckles punches Super Sonic.
Sonic runs out of Rings.
Sonic is knocked back by the punch, and he's so startled that the Emeralds fly right out of him (he's startled here because he's not in a combat situation, and thus less alert).
Sonic is puzzled by all this, and is likely in shock for a second (that or it's just plot induced stupidity).

Except that one time Knuckles ambushed him.

Which wasn't a combat situation.

That’s metroid not sonic and I don’t want to get involved in that battle.
Edit: The website screwed up, now it's showing your video.

• Robotnik has a cool fleet.
  
• So Sonic can cut through Robotnik's robots like Dunban through Mechon.
• Why do explosions in Sonic's world have such low AOEs (Sonic would have been wiped out if they were better)?
  
• Sonic seems noticeably faster than he was in the 16 bit days.
• As fast as Sonic is he still got grabbed by Robotnik and it took a few seconds for him to go Super Sonic.
• Sonic being easily tricked by Robotnik is not a good thing.
• Sonic can't outrun the effects of Vacuum.
  
• Gaia doesn't look so tough as it didn't even even destroy the planet!

• Indeed he does.
• Yup.
• I dunno.
• Sure does.
• I chalk this up to the same reason as Sonic not being able to catch Robotnik in some of the Genesis games: plot induced slowness (or speed for Robotnik, depending on how you look at it). As for the transformation, it's much quicker in other games; the smirking was slowing it down a bit.
• He was joking around (and if you'd fought Robotnik before, you'd know why).
• What exactly is Vacuum?
• I dunno, breaking it into, what, seven different pieces seems like a pretty big deal.
• Also worth noting is the fact that, despite being shot at by an entire robot army, Sonic dodges every single bullet and other attack.

damage to shield wielders from the front ( Example of a Shield wielding Mechon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...feature=player_detailpage&v=OZQuNGvILyk#t=103 ).

I see.

The Master sword isn’t particularly good against plate mail ( which is quite realistic, you should use a war hammer for better results ) and isn’t Ganondorf weak to it because it was forged to banish evil ( of which plate mail is not )?

Pretty much.

How Hard? Link please.

I don't have a link ATM, but the Fire Flower's fireballs have some serious rapid fire to them (as shown by mashing the button while facing a wall). The only thing holding it back in-game is the limit of two fireballs at a time, but that can be dismissed as a game mechanic.

Evidence of concentration visions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo7...6P040gwIwlhqcP&feature=player_detailpage#t=75 from 1:15 to 1:50. The last time he had a vision was after he beat Metal Face for the last time at Sword Valley and that is likely due to the Apocrypha being in effect. True against the Starman and kuribo’s shoe would likely negate spike damage as (there are a few pieces of foot armor with that function in Xenoblade (chronos set I believe)).

I see. Shulk has to close his eyes, though, which would leave him vulnerable to an attack.

Shulk has the upper hand because he will be behind him already.

Mario uses the statue ability.
Shulk starts to move behind Mario.
Mario sees this and exits the statue form.

You sure are using that one Starman a lot.

It is one of his best power-ups, after all.

Shulk’s visions plus reaction speed feats should ensure Mega Mario isn’t a problem.

I'll get to the Mega Mushroom's speed a bit later on.

Boom-Boom require 5 hits according to the Mario wiki so burns don’t seem to factor in from Mario’s Fireball. Not all fire attacks leave burn damage (you can put your hand in contact with flame and still avoid catching fire) and why can’t people like Mewtwo and Link stop, drop and roll?

As I've demonstrated before, the Koopa species (including Bowser, Boom-Boom, etc.) seems to be resistant to burns (rather fitting seeing as how Bowser would be a fire type in Pokemon terms). A possibility is that "burn" means a literal burn, not catching fire. Stopping, dropping, and rolling won't fix that.

You do realize he sees the attack long before Mario actually uses it right?

Unless Mario uses it at the very start of the match.

The Spike gem functions much like a normal enemy counter spike ( http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Spike) and has similarities to the Counter( except it does fixed damage rather than inflicting damage equal to the damage suffered by the user ) skill from the Fire Emblem series.

I see. Does Shulk have to attack with the Monado or another weapon, or is it automatic?

Shulk moves pretty fast with that Quick Step gem so he should easily be able to evade Mario’s attacks until Mario runs out of his invincibility items.

Video please?

Mario has to be faster than that to catch Shulk if he has a head start.
Can one of the brainiacs here ( @Dryn? ) get us an estimate on Mario and Shulk’s running speeds?

Who ever said anything about head starts? If you mean via a vision, this is inapplicable if Mario uses it at the start of the match.

That is proof that Mario is merely nigh-invulnerable.

And? That's more than Shulk can say.

Mario is too slow. Video of Mega Mario in action please?

(Around the 1:20 mark)

You are clearly my better when it comes to Mario and Sonic so it should be easy for you to find their best feats on Youtube for me and the others.

M'kay.

So how much KO potential does the Starman have by itself?

It can KO any regular enemy, and just ramming into Shulk repeatedly should do the trick (although using another power-up in conjunction with the Starman couldn't hurt).

Mario’s fireballs don’t inflict burns, as attested to by SMB3 Boom-Boom.

See above.

You do realize that Alvis asked Shulk about the future of the world ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...ist=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=1710 at 28:30-28:56 ). So if a character’s power comes from emeralds it’s ok but from another person it isn’t? Alvis can only recommend a course of action but can‘t execute any actions until he gets the go ahead from a Monado wielder.

Alvis is an ally. The Chaos Emeralds are not. In cutscenes, we see Alvis perform some nice feats on his own (I recall seeing him take down a swarm of enemies with the Monado once).

You really should stop trying to nerf people severely!

Says the guy who wanted to nerf Sonic because he annoyed you.

Shulk reactivated the Monado on the Fallen Arm while Alvis was organizing the allied force back at Alcamoth at the back of the Bionis’s head. You literally couldn‘t have them any further apart vertically and they are at nearly completely opposite sides of the world at that point! Meyneth uses her Monado quite a few times and she doesn’t even recognize Alvis. Where are you getting the idea that Alvis needs to be nearby for the

Reactivating the Monado =/= reshaping the universe.

That’s not how probability works, besides Mewtwo would only have a 65% chance of suffering the blaze status effect over 10 fireballs (90^10).

There's a greater chance of ten fireballs giving Mewtwo the burn effect at least once than there is of that not happening. There is no blaze status effect.

Too bad the Chao Garden rewards seem to flow only one way.

Good thing it's referenced throughout the series.

How many syrups does he get?

There's three different types in Super Mario RPG, each with varying degrees of effectiveness (although Mario can hold much more than three).

The Monados can take on any shape the bearer wishes and change multiple times over the course of the game ( Monado 1 morphs into Monado 2 being the 1st example) and leave Alvis no worse for wear.

As shown by?

To the people arguing about Lava in Zelda games Link would die if he didn’t teleport to the entrance of the room because those lava pits can’t be climbed out of! Not to be confused with the lava that you can walk on and get out of.

He still takes that quarter heart of damage, though. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

I wish to post a master rule above all others: No rule shall totally wreck any combatants capabilities! What do you think "ShadowLBlue?

Yeah, that sounds great! For starters, let's exempt Olimar from the rule that says only canonical feats are allowed, and let him grow 100 feet tall and crush everyone!

Yeah...no.

I was saying if he converted the Monado into say, fire to harm the opponents or something. Also, absolutely destroys and by converting their weapons into ether. That being said though plenty of characters can still beat him (Kirby and Sonic come to mind)

-Uses an invincibility candy, hops on the warp star with a thunder sword (which is literally just the sword ability with all the advantages of Spark) and slices Shulk to bits (he'd get a vision but he isn't really fast enough to react or use Monado Shield)

-Freezes time and then OHKOs Shulk with an infinite force punch (can't do anything if you're immobilized). This is the case as long as Sonic doesn't crack any cheesy one-liners.

- Looks at him.

To be fair those are the only two examples that I can think of where Shulk definitely loses, a few need closer examination () but most others can be summed up quickly

-Has the Falchion and any of his other weapons converted into ether thus making him completely and utterly helpless

- Has all of his fire attacks, ice attacks, physical projectiles, and hammer converted into ether. Probably gets crushed by Shulk's creations.

- Has her black holes converted into ether (a massive amount!) and proceeds to get crushed

- Just gets outplayed in the swordplay department and magic (combated by ether)

- See above

-See above again

-Has most of his arsenal converted into ether, gets killed when Shulk turns the arena into ether then turns it back into spikes

When has Shulk shown the ability to convert anything into ether?

 

[Crystanium]

Proof?

Lightning strikes people, but it doesn't set them on fire. Also, plasma can be at room temperature, which is known as non-thermal plasma.

The attacks are at the very least electricity (some flavor text refers to this and it's also supported by the electrical charges generated by the spark) and seem to simulate lightning on several occasions. Not to mention that plenty of other Kirby abilities make varying logical sense. Fire can melt certain metal blocks but can't melt other metal architecture, Tornado can go over small flames without being smothered by the vacuum of the tornado, Fire is self sustained in the vacuum of space, the ice ability in general, the list goes on. It makes more sense in the illogical world to understand where the line must be drawn between what we could assume in reality and what we can assume in a game.

I don't doubt the attacks have electrical qualities. It's a plasma ability, after all. The projectiles Kirby fires out aren't faster than his two lightning abilities, but they do move pretty fast. I'm not sure how fast they'd travel, but for the lightning attacks, I would be fine working with 224,000 mi/h, the speed lightning typically travels. Kirby could also prevent several attacks producing a plasma shield. You might find this of interest. It would look like Kirby might be able to protect himself from even Samus' beams. Also, while a plasma shield is different from a plasma window, the properties have typically "generated at temperatures around 15,000 Kelvin (U.S. Patent 5,578,831)." That's 14,726.85°C. The physics may behave differently, though, as Kirby isn't burning anyone he doesn't get near. Or that could just be something the developers were unaware of.

There are examples in other games, Din's Fire not burning anything besides torches, if Sonic moving at lightspeed (therefore using an infinite amount of energy) can crash into a wall without causing damage to himself or the environment but can be damaged by a badnik moving at half a mile per hour.

I'm not sure what this has to do with I said in my previous post.

Why use Celsius over Fahrenheit or Kelvin in your calculations?

For the same reason I use meters and kilograms. Celsius is the unit of temperature commonly used in the International System of Units. In the past, I would have used Fahrenheit, as I did in a thread like this one when Super Smash Bros. Brawl was released. I only did so because it looks like a larger number compared to Celsius.

Your analysis falls apart when Bullet Bills and Cannonballs don‘t have a drop with gravity(at least in the 2d games). If cannonballs aren’t effected by gravity then they don‘t have to have high muzzle velocity to hit distant targets. If the game was accounting for Mario running at Supersonic speeds wouldn’t gravity have a far more pronounced effect on him?

I expected Mario's speed to be a weak case, but I felt it was worth a shot. (Puns.) Yesterday, I calculated a cannonball's speed from the New Super Mario Bros. for the Wii and it only traveled 2.2 mi/h. I find it particularly odd myself that even when a cannonball is fired downward, it travels at this speed, rather than accelerating due to the gravitational acceleration. Considering these objects drop if Mario jumps on them and considering a lot of things drop, I know the physics of these projectiles aren't behaving as they should. Perhaps the reality of it is that Mario couldn't dodge or outrun these things. (Oddly enough, larger cannonballs in the aforementioned game travel slightly faster.)

Shulk moves pretty fast with that Quick Step gem so he should easily be able to evade Mario’s attacks until Mario runs out of his invincibility items.

Can one of the brainiacs here ( @Dryn? ) get us an estimate on Mario and Shulk’s running speeds?

That won't even be necessary to calculate. The Valak Peak jump clearly demonstrates Shulk traveling much faster in order to cover that distance. However, he had to equip these quick step gems. How does that work?

How is Duck Hunt a fire type?

You fire bullets at flying ducks. That's how.

...because they're not meant to come in contact with lava, and thus they're not coded to interact with it at all.

Sure, not in the game, but if it was modded so that they could be placed right in lava, considering they receive no harm from any of Link's attacks, it's likely they wouldn't receive harm from lava.

How did you calculate the Power Bomb's specific heat output?

I didn't. I simply worked with the fact that it produces a high heat wave that vaporizes humans and ingsmashers, which are made of some kind of alloy.

Where did you get nuclear explosions from? I doubt that's what Samus is using if the environments are often intact after she uses one.

So you doubt it on the basis that things in the environment remain intact. When Link uses Din's fire, nothing sets on fire except the necessary things like torches or enemies. Everything else is unscathed. If you set a bomb next to a house, it won't destroy the house. You really want to play that game? When Mario shoots a fireball at a tree, it doesn't set on fire.

Samus is slowed down because the Super Nintendo doesn't have blast processing the console simply wouldn't be able to handle supersonic speeds, nor would the level design. If Samus's lack of supersonic velocity is because of those reasons, then we'll need other evidence that the Missiles move that fast.

I know Samus is slowed down in-game, probably for that reason. However, I'm pointing out that her weapons fly faster than her. This could be tested again in Metroid: Zero Mission and Metroid Fusion, but not Metroid: Other M, since upon setting up the shinespark, Samus must launch in any direction. Missiles and super missiles can only be used in first-person in that game as well.

What's interesting, however, is that even in SM, when Samus uses the speed booster, her beams and missiles travel faster than her. This much I also recall from MZM and MF, and at least the beams can be tested at this point in MOM. This works pretty well with what's known as relative velocity.

 

[Nerdicon]

Lightning strikes people, but it doesn't set them on fire. Also, plasma can be at room temperature, which is known as non-thermal plasma.

It's not much, but I think I have a reason (that I've done some quick research on)
"Severe injuries are not usually caused by thermal burns, since the current is too brief to greatly heat up tissues"-Wikipedia
Like I said, I've done some research and this theory seems to check out. So with prolonged exposure the full effect of the heat generated by the Spark ability would be felt. This extends to Thunder Sword and, to a lesser extent, Thunder Bomb

I don't doubt the attacks have electrical qualities. It's a plasma ability, after all. The projectiles Kirby fires out aren't faster than his two lightning abilities, but they do move pretty fast. I'm not sure how fast they'd travel, but for the lightning attacks, I would be fine working with 224,000 mi/h, the speed lightning typically travels. Kirby could also prevent several attacks producing a plasma shield. You might find this of interest. It would look like Kirby might be able to protect himself from even Samus' beams. Also, while a plasma shield is different from a plasma window, the properties have typically "generated at temperatures around 15,000 Kelvin (U.S. Patent 5,578,831)." That's 14,726.85°C. The physics may behave differently, though, as Kirby isn't burning anyone he doesn't get near. Or that could just be something the developers were unaware of.

I guess. Kinda forgot that plasma's just ionized gas. The only hinderance with the lightning attack is that it only fires above Kirby or below him. Then again the attack from above him comes from his crown, so he could probably just aim his crown at people to attack. He didn't have many different powers in the anime though, he had a stronger version of the Thunderbolt attack he uses (Double Spark) and a different version of the Spark Barrier that consisted of loose electricity flying in all directions.

I'm not sure what this has to do with I said in my previous post.

Whoops, I thought you were talking about what happens in-game. Ignore this.

 

[Munomario777]

Sure, not in the game, but if it was modded so that they could be placed right in lava, considering they receive no harm from any of Link's attacks, it's likely they wouldn't receive harm from lava.

Modded games are not canon. Otherwise we may as well allow Mario 64 Chaos Edition:

And Sonic can jump a hundred feet into the air:

And, well...

I didn't. I simply worked with the fact that it produces a high heat wave that vaporizes humans and ingsmashers, which are made of some kind of alloy.

And what brought you to the 2500-3000 degree conclusion?

So you doubt it on the basis that things in the environment remain intact. When Link uses Din's fire, nothing sets on fire except the necessary things like torches or enemies. Everything else is unscathed. If you set a bomb next to a house, it won't destroy the house. You really want to play that game? When Mario shoots a fireball at a tree, it doesn't set on fire.

True. Still, I doubt that Samus is using nuclear weapons over and over again without suffering radiation or being vaporized herself.

I know Samus is slowed down in-game, probably for that reason. However, I'm pointing out that her weapons fly faster than her. This could be tested again in Metroid: Zero Mission and Metroid Fusion, but not Metroid: Other M, since upon setting up the shinespark, Samus must launch in any direction. Missiles and super missiles can only be used in first-person in that game as well.

What's interesting, however, is that even in SM, when Samus uses the speed booster, her beams and missiles travel faster than her. This much I also recall from MZM and MF, and at least the beams can be tested at this point in MOM. This works pretty well with what's known as relative velocity.

We should do this sort of thing on a case-by-case basis. Otherwise, Robotnik can run faster than the speed of sound.

 

[Crystanium]

It's not much, but I think I have a reason (that I've done some quick research on)
"Severe injuries are not usually caused by thermal burns, since the current is too brief to greatly heat up tissues"-Wikipedia
Like I said, I've done some research and this theory seems to check out. So with prolonged exposure the full effect of the heat generated by the Spark ability would be felt. This extends to Thunder Sword and, to a lesser extent, Thunder Bomb

I don't know how long the spark attacks last.

Modded games are not canon. Otherwise we may as well allow Mario 64 Chaos Edition:

And Sonic can jump a hundred feet into the air:

And, well...

I never said they were canon. I said they can tell us more about the games themselves.

And what brought you to the 2500-3000 degree conclusion?

That site I linked you concerning fuel-air explosives. I could work with the 6,000 K, honestly, considering the color of the power bomb in MOM is white and considering that power bombs are possibly not thermobaric weapons, just because they can be used in water and in weather that's in poor condition like snow and rain.

True. Still, I doubt that Samus is using nuclear weapons over and over again without suffering radiation or being vaporized herself.

Self-power immunity. Samus can be harmed by the power bomb guardian or SA-X when they use power bombs. Samus is also immune to her own bombs, which she can use to bounce up, but bombs from the Dark Sandigger can harm her.

We should do this sort of thing on a case-by-case basis. Otherwise, Robotnik can run faster than the speed of sound.

How fast is Sonic running in the video? Is this consistent in other games, or is this just an outlier?

 

[Munomario777]

I never said they were canon. I said they can tell us more about the games themselves.

If there are no NPCs that are able to fall in lava in the regular game, then we cannot see for sure what would happen. Thus, we go to reasoning:
Link is hurt by lava.
Link is the same species as many NPCs.
Therefore, many NPCs are hurt by lava.

That site I linked you concerning fuel-air explosives. I could work with the 6,000 K, honestly, considering the color of the power bomb in MOM is white and considering that power bombs are possibly not thermobaric weapons, just because they can be used in water and in weather that's in poor condition like snow and rain.

I see. I'd be fine working with that.

Self-power immunity. Samus can be harmed by the power bomb guardian or SA-X when they use power bombs. Samus is also immune to her own bombs, which she can use to bounce up, but bombs from the Dark Sandigger can harm her.

Fair enough. I don't see where you got the whole nuclear explosion thing from, though.

How fast is Sonic running in the video? Is this consistent in other games, or is this just an outlier?

Presumably the speed of sound, since that's about his top speed in the Genesis games. This also occurs in Sonic 2, right before the Death Egg Robot boss, and the Chao Garden mode I've mentioned before portrays Robotnik as moving quite fast.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

On an unrelated note, does everyone agree with these being the types everyone would have from Pokemon? We could use these for type advantages/disadvantages and see if a Pokemon attack would be super effective against someone.
Fighting/Fire (second type can be changed with power-ups)
Fighting/Electric (second type can be changed with power-ups)
Fairy/Flying
Fire/Dark
Normal
Flying
Fire
Normal
Normal
Fighting/Ground
Normal
Normal
Fairy/Psychic
Fighting/Dark
Dark
Normal
Steel
Fighting
Flying
Fairy
Ice
Steel
Steel/Fighting
Steel/Electric
Flying
Normal
Flying/Dark
Fighting
Steel/Ground
Steel/Air
Steel/Dark
Electric
Electric
Fire/Flying
Fighting/Steel
Normal/Fairy
Water/Dark
Psychic
Grass
Water
Normal
Fire/Flying
Steel
Psychic
Psychic
Fire/Steel
Normal
Grass/Ground
Fighting
Normal
Flying/Dark
Steel
Steel/Fire
Fighting
Normal
Steel
Air
Steel/Fighting
Fighting
Electric
Steel

Samus shouldn't be just Steel. But she can't really have 2 types since she has MP Plasma Beam, Ice Beam, MP Wave Beam, etc.
Shouldn't Link be Fighting since he has a sword or those kind of guys are Steel type?
Sonic should be Fighting or Normal.
Captain Falcon and not a Fire/Fighting type? That is a sin.
Thats all i can say.

Where did all the Ridleys come from?

From the depths of space, son, from the depths of space.


Not going to quote anything, but i think we might as well ignore 99% of Kirby's abilities outside of Supernova and maybe things like Monster Flame because Kirby is pathetically small compared to most of the characters here, so, his attacks might as well be bee stings.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I don't see why not, if he has enough of them. Anyway, once Mewtwo stops teleporting to dodge attacks (which would happen, since each dodge requires two uses of the move and Mario has an expansive enough arsenal/supply of life restores), Mario can go in for the kill.

The dodge would only take one Teleport, he moves to the side or upward. Mario doesn't know about Teleport's limited use. Mewtwo won't stop teleporting for quite a while, so Mario will try a different attack.

Has Shulk been shown to do this?

When has Shulk shown the ability to convert anything into ether?

You're doubting what I just proved, that the Monado grants complete control over ether (everything). I'm not doubting that the Fire Flower lets Mario throw fireballs, or that Rosalina can create forcefields, or that Sonic can become Super Sonic with the Chaos Emeralds, because that's what they just do. Controlling everything means you can do essentially everything.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Samus shouldn't be just Steel. But she can't really have 2 types since she has MP Plasma Beam, Ice Beam, MP Wave Beam, etc.
Shouldn't Link be Fighting since he has a sword or those kind of guys are Steel type?
Sonic should be Fighting or Normal.
Captain Falcon and not a Fire/Fighting type? That is a sin.
Thats all i can say.

I guess Link could be steel, since most of his weapons are metal. Samus could probably be electric. Sonic would be normal, I guess, but Falcon's main thing is racing, not fighting.

Not going to quote anything, but i think we might as well ignore 99% of Kirby's abilities outside of Supernova and maybe things like Monster Flame because Kirby is pathetically small compared to most of the characters here, so, his attacks might as well be bee stings.

Except all of his abilities can damage those much bigger than he is.

 

[Munomario777]

The dodge would only take one Teleport, he moves to the side or upward. Mario doesn't know about Teleport's limited use. Mewtwo won't stop teleporting for quite a while, so Mario will try a different attack.

My bad.

If Mario has an extremely powerful attack that he can use multiple times, I don't see why he would refrain from doing so.

You're doubting what I just proved, that the Monado grants complete control over ether (everything). I'm not doubting that the Fire Flower lets Mario throw fireballs, or that Rosalina can create forcefields, or that Sonic can become Super Sonic with the Chaos Emeralds. Controlling everything means you can do essentially everything.

Mario can control fire, but that does not mean that he can control all of the fire in the world. Shulk can control ether, but that does not mean that he can control all of the fire in the world. Let's not extrapolate here.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

You're doubting what I just proved, that the Monado grants complete control over ether (everything). I'm not doubting that the Fire Flower lets Mario throw fireballs, or that Rosalina can create forcefields, or that Sonic can become Super Sonic with the Chaos Emeralds, because that's what they just do. Controlling everything means you can do essentially everything.

There is no proof everything is made of ether outside of Shulk's world. It might as well be as different as Paper Mario's world is different from Super Mario Bros world. So, it may not help him much outside of just changing himself and his weapon anyhow if everything else is made of...not ether.

but Falcon's main thing is racing, not fighting.

Then why would he need such body and how would he get it? He also is a bounty hunter, remember?

Except all of his abilities can damage those much bigger than he is.

Even if size difference is so great he can be crushed in one hand? I don't remember them damaging something THAT big.

 

[Nerdicon]

True. Still, I doubt that Samus is using nuclear weapons over and over again without suffering radiation or being vaporized herself.

Don't even go there. There are dozens of examples in other games that contain things that don't make sense.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

It's already 2-2, with Godwin and I being for, and Muno and Shadow being against.

I'm not sure what the point of this debate is. The only "god" power that Shulk that can be debated Shulk needs Alvis's help for is potentially resetting the Universe, something I think he needs all 3 Monado's to do, which he wouldn't have here.

On an unrelated note, does everyone agree with these being the types everyone would have from Pokemon? We could use these for type advantages/disadvantages and see if a Pokemon attack would be super effective against someone.

Nope, fighters don't have types if they're not Pokemon. You could argue for Ganondorf being Dark type (that would explain why he's so distracted by the Bug catcher!) but we know he's only vulnerable to holy weapons, and there is no such thing as a holy Pokemon attack. Just because someone is a human doesn't mean they're normal, because if that were the case they wouldn't be able to affected by ghosts attacks (in the anime, since you can't attack people in the game) and would be shown (somehow) receiving extra damage from fighting moves. The only exception should be when Kirby and Mario transform into various forms based on elements.

To a degree, that is exactly what it is. The problem is using numbers like, "Mewtwo can only teleport ten times, since he only has 10 PP for that." I'm just not sure how 10 PP is supposed to translate into the real world.

That he can only use it 10 times before he's too tired to perform the technique for the rest of battle anymore? I understand this argument for non-Pokemon whose special attacks all draw from the same power pool (i.e. Mario's FP, Ness' PP, etc) but Pokemon seem to have specific energy for individual moves.

If we're going to debate about this or that operating on a different physics system, then there's no point in debating. We could never find out how the physics behave because even from game to game, the physics are different. Mario falls faster than a cannonball being fired downward.

That's my point though. I don't now about anyone else who voted for this rule, but since we can't judge how fast these attacks can really go, we should assume they go at the speed shown unless we have sufficient evidence (like consistent lore mentions or cutscenes) they should go at a different speed. Example: I understand logically that say, Hyper Voice from a Pokemon should move at the speed of sound, but unless it is actually stated to move at sonic speeds and shown to do so, we should just assume it goes at the speed shown.

No; I'm demonstrating that if Samus can run supersonic, and if her missiles travel faster than her, then her missiles travel faster than the speed of sound as well.

Well I'd like to see it done in more than one game, but I have no problem believing they go above the speed of sound.

Goodness, @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , how long did it take you to write this?!?!

Shulk bested Jade Face twice, who happens to be the closest thing to a crackshot that the world of Xenoblade has. I do admit he was able to use cover the 1st time but he did deflect one of his projectiles the second time ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Q6oeHKVlU&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=79 ). He also managed to block a bullet meant for Reyn so he is hardly helpless against projectile spammers ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4b...list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=725 ).
Shulk has Monado Purge which has a range of 20M(according to the wiki, though I don’t know what M equals), and he only has to use Battle Soul twice to refill his talent gauge to use it again. Assuming the daytime cooldown skill is in effect, he can use it once every 79 seconds. He can also evade rapid fire attacks and jump pretty high ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=535 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...eature=player_detailpage&v=rfUs8P8PcHw#t=1200). The further away Bowser Jr. is the less likely his attacks are going to connect, and the Mario Bros don’t exactly have very good projectile games either. Can we get some videos of his capabilities(cutscene and gameplay)?
Oh I just remembered this scene ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...v=H-5rhe7ekhA&feature=player_detailpage#t=920 )! Shulk could just have the Monado morph into a more useful form like an anti-air gun or Missile Launcher (Example of the Monado morphing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...XRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&v=OUNiW6HaqhE#t=1433 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...XRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&v=OUNiW6HaqhE#t=1833 )! The only thing holding him back is he only has experience with swords.

I admit I forgot about Jade Face, but he had his party to distract him so Shulk could attack him while Jade Face is focused on whomever the designated tank is. In this battle, he'd have to deflect projectiles (some of which wouldn't even be able to be deflected, like Fire Blast or Psychic) WHILE trying to attack. So I still doubt he beats the Pokemon.
Also, there's an option under right click that let's you copy a URL exactly at the moment something happens that you should use next time, because I'm not going through a 33 minute video to find the Monado morphing to a gun or anti-air weapon.
That being said, the video vs the Big Bad did remind me how agile Shulk is in vision mode and about his super hops. It makes me believe that he would beat Bowser Jr or Wario, but not the Fire Emblem Characters because I still don't see how he overcomes Ike, Roy or Lucinia's counter. Or Marth's immunity to direct attacks from non-dragons.

By the way does Bowser Jr. have his magical paintbrush?

Yes

1. I just rounded up because it looks neater.
2. Yes. Can AOE attacks be used to target the ground around him as a loophole(splash damage)?

1. K
2. I forgot who we were talking about here, it's been several pages.

If we can get Bind or Purge (even Slow can be crippling if we use gameplay Sonic) to proc hitting Sonic would be laughably easy!

You know more about Sonic and Wisps than I do, but I feel like even Slow Sonic with his Wisps would be a better challenge than "laughably easy". I do think if Shulk can Bind Super Sonic/Sonic that he could beat him. Not sure about Slow, since I think it halves Speed, and half speed Sonic is still too fast.

We still have to determine the offensive potency of ramming into someone while invincible. Wouldn’t invincibility hit many times when running into someone?

I'd think so.

Technically their not ghosts as evidenced by the fact that there is a Tiki Einherjar and that Tiki is still alive in awakening. As these are merely copies of the originals I would have to vote no on Awakening skills for Ike and Marth.

True. I'll have to revise Ike's skills. Well, two of them.

Pokemon attacks should be able to wear down their shields given sufficient time, and surely some Pokemon are capable of punching through it’s armor. Do we know the top speeds of the Arwing and Landmaster? Can the Landmaster cannon depress enough to hit the shorter combatants? Can the Landmaster crush combatants with a barrel roll ( how about “invincible characters” )

I'm sure they can wear down shields and the actual armor.
IDK an Arwing's top speed. Not sure it's ever been stated. We should get @Dryn to estimate it since it seems like he likes stuff like that.
IDK about either Landmaster question.

We haven’t even got a good rule set going yet so non-playable characters will have to wait. I’d love to throw Metal Face in but that would result in a vicious debate about how strong his Face Mechon armor is ( there wouldn‘t be any Sonic games if Dr. Robotnik could make robots out of that material ).

We actually voted on all the rules, although (only) munomario debates the rule saying Sonic can't get access to 999,999 Rings Team Sonic had in SA2, and Dryn doesn't like attacks going at the speed shown.

I wish to post a master rule above all others: No rule shall totally wreck any combatants capabilities! What do you think "ShadowLBlue?

...Is there a current rule that wrecks someone's capabilities?

I also don't agree with Shulk being able to control the material around him with the Monado; that only works because of all the ether in Xenoblade.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

If Mario has an extremely powerful attack that he can use multiple times, I don't see why he would refrain from doing so.

If it's dodged consistently, that's why he'd refrain.

Mario can control fire, but that does not mean that he can control all of the fire in the world. Shulk can control ether, but that does not mean that he can control all of the fire in the world. Let's not extrapolate here.

I'm not extrapolating anything. First off, Mario doesn't actually have the ability to control fire. The Firebrand/Fire Flower just give him a fire projectile, while the stuff from Super Mario RPG is just an assortment of specific fire attacks. Second, if Mario did have the power to control fire, he'd be able to control all of the fire in the world. Just not at once, we'd have to take into account his range.

Then why would he need such body and how would he get it? He also is a bounty hunter, remember?

True, but racing is more prominent than bounty hunting to Captain Falcon, and he races in a metal vehicle.

Even if size difference is so great he can be crushed in one hand? I don't remember them damaging something THAT big.

Kirby's body is squishy, and he tanked a planetary explosion in the ending of Kirby: Triple Deluxe, so I don't think crushing him will do anything. He's also destroyed NOVA, who is the size of a planet.

Nope, fighters don't have types if they're not Pokemon. You could argue for Ganondorf being Dark type (that would explain why he's so distracted by the Bug catcher!) but we know he's only vulnerable to holy weapons, and there is no such thing as a holy Pokemon attack. Just because someone is a human doesn't mean they're normal, because if that were the case they wouldn't be able to affected by ghosts attacks (in the anime, since you can't attack people in the game) and would be shown (somehow) receiving extra damage from fighting moves. The only exception should be when Kirby and Mario transform into various forms based on elements.

I just thought it would be a good idea, but okay if you think otherwise.

There is no proof everything is made of ether outside of Shulk's world. It might as well be as different as Paper Mario's world is different from Super Mario Bros world. So, it may not help him much outside of just changing himself and his weapon anyhow if everything else is made of...not ether.

I also don't agree with Shulk being able to control the material around him with the Monado; that only works because of all the ether in Xenoblade.

Not actually going to disagree with this, but basically what Bagan and I said. He is made of ether, so he can alter himself for any modifications necessary to defeat his opponent.

 

[Munomario777]

If it's dodged consistently, that's why he'd refrain.

Well, it couldn't hurt to keep using it.

I'm not extrapolating anything. First off, Mario doesn't actually have the ability to control fire. The Firebrand/Fire Flower just give him a fire projectile, while the stuff from Super Mario RPG is just an assortment of specific fire attacks. Second, if Mario did have the power to control fire, he'd be able to control all of the fire in the world. Just not at once, we'd have to take into account his range.

Control over fire would be necessary to make those complex Mario Finale-esque shapes, I'd imagine.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Well, it couldn't hurt to keep using it.

Even so, Disable and Taunt could stop its usage.

Control over fire would be necessary to make those complex Mario Finale-esque shapes, I'd imagine.

That's more likely just how the attack turns out from the beginning. Not to mention, Ultra Flame (which is Mario Finale's canon) is just spheres of fire, not any actual shaping there.

 

[Crystanium]

If there are no NPCs that are able to fall in lava in the regular game, then we cannot see for sure what would happen. Thus, we go to reasoning:
Link is hurt by lava.
Link is the same species as many NPCs.
Therefore, many NPCs are hurt by lava.

This is an invalid argument. The people of Kakariko village are Hylians as well, but bombs and fire arrows don't harm them. They harm Link. What it means then is NPCs aren't programmed to be harmed. Therefore, NPCs wouldn't be harmed by lava. Anyway, this has gone long enough. I'll just work with hammerspace as you've mentioned before.

Fair enough. I don't see where you got the whole nuclear explosion thing from, though.

I can't think of any bomb capable of vaporizing humans, except nuclear bombs. Simply typing "bomb vaporize humans" gives be results of nuclear bombs.

Presumably the speed of sound, since that's about his top speed in the Genesis games. This also occurs in Sonic 2, right before the Death Egg Robot boss, and the Chao Garden mode I've mentioned before portrays Robotnik as moving quite fast.

Do you have videos of these? I'm interested in seeing them.

That's my point though. I don't now about anyone else who voted for this rule, but since we can't judge how fast these attacks can really go, we should assume they go at the speed shown unless we have sufficient evidence (like consistent lore mentions or cutscenes) they should go at a different speed. Example: I understand logically that say, Hyper Voice from a Pokemon should move at the speed of sound, but unless it is actually stated to move at sonic speeds and shown to do so, we should just assume it goes at the speed shown.

Yeah, I'm not content with that because it ignores what's quantifiable.

Well I'd like to see it done in more than one game, but I have no problem believing they go above the speed of sound.

I don't have Metroid: Zero Mission or Metroid Fusion on me, but I'm certain in those games, the same can be done. Again, these games even portray relative velocity, meaning that even if these weapons couldn't travel supersonic, they would be able to if Samus was using the speed booster.

IDK an Arwing's top speed. Not sure it's ever been stated. We should get @Dryn to estimate it since it seems like he likes stuff like that.

Arwings can travel Mach 4.2. That'd be their atmospheric speed, meaning that sound travels at least 660 mi/h at an altitude of 20,000 feet. If we take 660 mi/h and multiply it by 4.2, then an arwing can travel 2,772 mi/h.

 

[Jiggly]

 

[Munomario777]

Even so, Disable and Taunt could stop its usage.

And he could use a different attack.

That's more likely just how the attack turns out from the beginning. Not to mention, Ultra Flame (which is Mario Finale's canon) is just spheres of fire, not any actual shaping there.

They seem to curve quie a bit, as if they have homing prroperties. I don't have video atm, but look up a twenty-minute video on Mario's Smash moveset origins or something along those lines, and it should be near the end of that.

This is an invalid argument. The people of Kakariko village are Hylians as well, but bombs and fire arrows don't harm them. They harm Link. What it means then is NPCs aren't programmed to be harmed. Therefore, NPCs wouldn't be harmed by lava. Anyway, this has gone long enough. I'll just work with hammerspace as you've mentioned before.

NPCs are not programmed to be harmed by Link because of the game mechanic thatprevents Link from harming them. They are not programmed to react to lava because they do notever come in contact with lava. Anyway, let's just work with hammerspace.

I can't think of any bomb capable of vaporizing humans, except nuclear bombs. Simply typing "bomb vaporize humans" gives be results of nuclear bombs.

Or it could be another type of explosion created in the Metroidverse. Do nuclear bombs share the relatively slow rate of expansion shown by Power Bombs?

Do you have videos of these? I'm interested in seeing them.

I don't have a video to link right now, but look up "Eggman is faster than Sonic". Both examples should be within the first couple of minutes of one of the top videos.

 

[Crystanium]

NPCs are not programmed to be harmed by Link because of the game mechanic thatprevents Link from harming them. They are not programmed to react to lava because they do notever come in contact with lava. Anyway, let's just work with hammerspace.

Yes, I realize that NPCs aren't harmed by Link's weapons because it's a game mechanic, and this reasoning extends even to lava. It has nothing to do with NPCs never coming into contact with lava. It has to do with them being immune to harm because they're programmed that way.

Or it could be another type of explosion created in the Metroidverse. Do nuclear bombs share the relatively slow rate of expansion shown by Power Bombs?

Since the speed varies from game to game, the rate shouldn't be considered because it's dependent on the way it's programmed. Clearly, Metroid: Other M demonstrates Samus' weapons in a more powerful manner and it travels faster than what's been previously seen.

I suppose Robotnik is faster than Sonic, then, since this has been consistent.

 

[Munomario777]

Yes, I realize that NPCs aren't harmed by Link's weapons because it's a game mechanic, and this reasoning extends even to lava. It has nothing to do with NPCs never coming into contact with lava. It has to do with them being immune to harm because they're programmed that way.

And they're not programmed that way because the developers never meant for them to come into contact with lava in the first place. It's like how background areas often don't have collision programmed in (because the player isn't meant to be there) and you can just fall through them if you somehow manage to mod/hack/glitch your way there.

Since the speed varies from game to game, the rate shouldn't be considered because it's dependent on the way it's programmed. Clearly, Metroid: Other M demonstrates Samus' weapons in a more powerful manner and it travels faster than what's been previously seen.

Items that appear in multiple games get their attributes combined. The Power Bomb is slower in more games than it's instantaneous in (it's more consistent), so we use that speed rather than that depicted in Other M.

I suppose Robotnik is faster than Sonic, then, since this has been consistent.

Hahaha. You're kidding, right?

Sonic is commonly stated to be the "fastest thing alive", and Robotnik is alive. Robotnik cannot be faster than Sonic according to lore. This is an example of why we shouldn't make these sorts of comparisons. If object A is slowed down so that the game can handle it, and object B is at the top speed that the game can handle, they're essentially using two different scales. It's like a chart with two bars of data (taller depending on how large the variable is). Bar A is taller than bar B, but the chart is cropped at bar B's top, so they seem like they're the same size when they're really not.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

I was saying if he converted the Monado into say, fire to harm the opponents or something.
-Uses an invincibility candy, hops on the warp star with a thunder sword (which is literally just the sword ability with all the advantages of Spark) and slices Shulk to bits (he'd get a vision but he isn't really fast enough to react or use Monado Shield)
-Freezes time and then OHKOs Shulk with an infinite force punch (can't do anything if you're immobilized). This is the case as long as Sonic doesn't crack any cheesy one-liners.
- Looks at him.

-Has most of his arsenal converted into ether, gets killed when Shulk turns the arena into ether then turns it back into spikes

Why not launch fire straight from the Monado instead?

How exactly is the 8 inch tall Kirby going to cut the 67 inch Shulk to bits (that’s more of a size difference than Shulk vs Metal Face)? The Debuff Resist gem should nullify any of the thunder sword’s paralyzing power and Shulk wears armor (medium and heavy with a skill link) that would be a bit of a out of context problem for Kirby(It takes multiple blows from a sword just to break Meta Knight’s mask!). Can the Warp Star really go at warp speed and can Kirby fight effectively from it without crashing it into Shulk(does the Warp Star also benefit from the effects of the invincibility candy)? Shulk would get a vision before the match starts and could apply Shield or Armor than.

Sonic never stops time in canon (that’s shadow’s gig) and it requires Sonic to collect 60 rings in a multiplayer (He comes into this match with all his rings already and there are no rings lying on the ground here) mode. Sonic does not have an infinite force punch (evidence please).

what is that, a Tardigrade?

I’m not so sure Shulk can turn other characters or their weapons into ether, but I’m fine with using the environment of the arena for such purposes due to it being neutral. Should we vote on that?

@ Reckless Godwin 2.0
I got Fire-Type from the explosives and gun.
@ Nerdicon
The Monado can also give control over immaterial things, so Shulk might be able to control time and counter Sonic. Not too sure, though.

Are we including the NES Zapper wielding player/hunter or the gunmen as I don’t remember the Dog or Duck actually using guns?

You mean this scene where Alvis explains the Monado (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm955w13LVw&feature=player_detailpage&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=2046 at 34:07-34:21)?

Thanks for the likes buddy!

Has Shulk been shown to do this?

Just because Shulk didn’t do it on screen doesn’t mean he can’t do if he wished to do so. The reason we don’t see Shulkonis or any other kind of transformation is simple, he is content with being a Homs and doesn’t need that kind of power to live that kind of life.

When has Shulk morphed the Monado into an anti-air gun or a missile launcher?

Shulk hasn’t morphed the Monado into any of those things, but Meyneth’s Monado has shifted from a chest emblem to dual swords and finally into a much larger single sword.

Chaos Control.

How often can Sonic use Chaos Control?

(Around the 33:00 mark)
When Sonic uses the Homing Attack on a shielding opponent, he can act soon afterwards, and he gets launched upwards, which might give Shulk a hard time hitting him.

Shulk has some pretty impressive jumping feats so Sonic won’t get a reprieve in the air.

Besides the fact that he would likely be in Super Sonic form by this point, Sonic also has an upgrade called "Sure-Footed", which helps him recover after being hit.

How much of an improvement is “sure-footed”?

That says nothing about any lack of a cooldown.

Which means cooldowns aren’t the limiting factor.

Timestamps please?

1st video: 19:31-19:52, 2nd video: 15:04-15:20, 3rd video: 26:34-26:46.

Sonic is knocked back by the punch, and he's so startled that the Emeralds fly right out of him (he's startled here because he's not in a combat situation, and thus less alert).
Sonic is puzzled by all this, and is likely in shock for a second (that or it's just plot induced stupidity).

Wouldn’t he be confused by the sudden spike damage associated with Shulk’s ether gem?

Which wasn't a combat situation.

Still knocked him out of Super Sonic mode which is supposed to be quite difficult.

• Indeed he does.
• Yup.
• I dunno.
• Sure does.
• I chalk this up to the same reason as Sonic not being able to catch Robotnik in some of the Genesis games: plot induced slowness (or speed for Robotnik, depending on how you look at it). As for the transformation, it's much quicker in other games; the smirking was slowing it down a bit.
• He was joking around (and if you'd fought Robotnik before, you'd know why).
• What exactly is Vacuum?
• I dunno, breaking it into, what, seven different pieces seems like a pretty big deal.
• Also worth noting is the fact that, despite being shot at by an entire robot army, Sonic dodges every single bullet and other attack.

A good chunk of that scene happens on the deck of Robotnik’s spaceship, which could explain Sonics impressive speed (no air resistance) and the worthlessness of the robots explosive armament (pressure waves are greatly reduced in vacuum). Sonic would have had a lot more trouble with that encounter if it had occurred near ground level.

I see. Shulk has to close his eyes, though, which would leave him vulnerable to an attack.

That feat was performed when he had the Monado II, so he may have improved quite a bit since then with the Monado III (which should help greatly with the vision process).

Mario uses the statue ability.
Shulk starts to move behind Mario.
Mario sees this and exits the statue form.

How exactly does Mario see anything when he is made of stone? He doesn't have a Lakitu cameraman hovering around.

As I've demonstrated before, the Koopa species (including Bowser, Boom-Boom, etc.) seems to be resistant to burns (rather fitting seeing as how Bowser would be a fire type in Pokemon terms). A possibility is that "burn" means a literal burn, not catching fire. Stopping, dropping, and rolling won't fix that.

Burns are painful but not fatal in the same sense as catching on fire would be. We should put this up to a vote!

Unless Mario uses it at the very start of the match.

Then Shulk would see it before the match even begins.

I see. Does Shulk have to attack with the Monado or another weapon, or is it automatic?

It’s automatic. You could sneak up behind him and hit him while he’s sleeping and you will still wind up taking spike damage.

Video please?

Quick Step lets him run 25% faster than normal so this video should give you an idea https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq5FtW9kgAE&index=48&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP (3:33-3:50 for normal running, 3:59-4:04 for running on ice, 4:04-4:14 for glitched ice jump, 5:00-5:10 for jump off ice ramp). Mario would be jealous of that performance.

Who ever said anything about head starts? If you mean via a vision, this is inapplicable if Mario uses it at the start of the match.

Shulk gets a vision before the match starts.

(Around the 1:20 mark)

• The Mega Mushroom is pretty big!
• Mega Mario is about 3.5 times taller than regular Mario (20 feet tops).
• Mega Mario isn’t much faster than normal Mario (although Mario seems faster than normal in this game) and why can’t he run?

How about we compare him to one of Shulk’s enemies, Metal Face!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmMj_A_GLcU&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=6 appears at 17:45-18:02 (his height is comparable with that of the houses) and 22:44-23:08 shows how Shulk is able to drive him off.

Alvis is an ally. The Chaos Emeralds are not. In cutscenes, we see Alvis perform some nice feats on his own (I recall seeing him take down a swarm of enemies with the Monado once).

When does Alvis take down swarms of enemies on his own? The only time Alvis takes down an enemy on his own is when he purges that Telethia at Lakeside. Are you confusing him with Dunban’s feats at Sword Valley (He was being controlled by the Monado during the 3rd wave of Mechon (the one with the trio of building sized quadrupeds and host of lesser ones)) and during the Colony 9 raid?

There's a greater chance of ten fireballs giving Mewtwo the burn effect at least once than there is of that not happening. There is no blaze status effect.

Aren’t blaze and burn the same thing?

Good thing it's referenced throughout the series.

When have the Chao Gardens ever helped contribute to Sonic’s victories over Robotnik and pals?

There's three different types in Super Mario RPG, each with varying degrees of effectiveness (although Mario can hold much more than three).

Ok. 99 of each?

As shown by?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-5rhe7ekhA&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=40 at 25:56-26:08 the Monado I morphs into the Monado II.

Yeah, that sounds great! For starters, let's exempt Olimar from the rule that says only canonical feats are allowed, and let him grow 100 feet tall and crush everyone!

When does Olimar grow to 100 feet tall? I don’t think there are any beings in Pikmin that even reach 6 ft.

When has Shulk shown the ability to convert anything into ether?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfUs8P8PcHw&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=101 at 20:15-20:28 Shulk manifests the Monado III (which is made of ether) from the “light of life the will to survive no matter what” mentioned in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kFrAGrjxP4&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=76 at 19:19-19:38.

For the same reason I use meters and kilograms. Celsius is the unit of temperature commonly used in the International System of Units. In the past, I would have used Fahrenheit, as I did in a thread like this one when Super Smash Bros. Brawl was released. I only did so because it looks like a larger number compared to Celsius.

That won't even be necessary to calculate. The Valak Peak jump clearly demonstrates Shulk traveling much faster in order to cover that distance. However, he had to equip these quick step gems. How does that work?

You fire bullets at flying ducks. That's how.

So how about using Kelvin if your going to be scientific about everything?

The jump to Valak Peak is done with a combination of a decent Quick Step gem (It doesn’t have to have the maximum bonus) and Xenoblade’s crazy ice physics (It takes extra time to accelerate on ice but there is a far higher top speed). The other impressive feat with that jump is that Shulk and co. didn’t go splat against the climbable rock face and managed to get a grip on it instead.

Does that make the Links fire types as well because they “fire” arrows?

We should do this sort of thing on a case-by-case basis. Otherwise, Robotnik can run faster than the speed of sound.

There is no sound in space due to a lack of an adequate supply of air.
By the way why does SEGA use biplane rescues so frequently in their games?

Not going to quote anything, but i think we might as well ignore 99% of Kirby's abilities outside of Supernova and maybe things like Monster Flame because Kirby is pathetically small compared to most of the characters here, so, his attacks might as well be bee stings.

Technically he is more like a wasp or hornet because he’s good for more than one attack. I can see him beating characters like Wii Fit trainer and Olimar but he will have trouble dealing with the likes of Shulk (Kirby doesn’t have anything on Mischievous Naberius’s arsenal) and Ike (he has dealt with nasty physical blows and high-end magic alike).

Except all of his abilities can damage those much bigger than he is.

How much Bigger?

Mario can control fire, but that does not mean that he can control all of the fire in the world. Shulk can control ether, but that does not mean that he can control all of the fire in the world. Let's not extrapolate here.

Shulk has a Monado and Mario has a Fire Flower, they aren‘t comparable.

There is no proof everything is made of ether outside of Shulk's world. It might as well be as different as Paper Mario's world is different from Super Mario Bros world. So, it may not help him much outside of just changing himself and his weapon anyhow if everything else is made of...not ether.

Isn’t this battlefield supposed to be neutral ground where characters have access to all their canon capabilities?

Goodness, @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , how long did it take you to write this?!?!

I admit I forgot about Jade Face, but he had his party to distract him so Shulk could attack him while Jade Face is focused on whomever the designated tank is. In this battle, he'd have to deflect projectiles (some of which wouldn't even be able to be deflected, like Fire Blast or Psychic) WHILE trying to attack. So I still doubt he beats the Pokemon.
Also, there's an option under right click that let's you copy a URL exactly at the moment something happens that you should use next time, because I'm not going through a 33 minute video to find the Monado morphing to a gun or anti-air weapon.
That being said, the video vs the Big Bad did remind me how agile Shulk is in vision mode and about his super hops. It makes me believe that he would beat Bowser Jr or Wario, but not the Fire Emblem Characters because I still don't see how he overcomes Ike, Roy or Lucinia's counter. Or Marth's immunity to direct attacks from non-dragons.

2. I forgot who we were talking about here, it's been several pages.

Way too long.

I did use that option but it looks like I might have posted the wrong link in the 1st instance (Facepalm). Should I also add a time in the text as well? I brought up that 1st link of Shulk deflecting Jade face’s attack because it could be used as ammo in a tennis match between Shulk and Ganondorf.

Fixed the 1st link, but it seems like that URL trick takes a few moments to kick in and it falls apart when you have multiple videos playing.

Counter (http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Counter) returns damage every time the user is attacked right? This sounds an awful lot like the counter spike from Xenoblade (http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Spike). The best way to beat that would be to equip one of the spike defense gems (75%) and link Melia’s Rejection of Evil skill (50%) for a total of 100% spike defense. That setup should negate the effects of Counter. Lucina and Robin are the ones who have the overpowered counter skill, while Ike would have to make due with the weaker (half as potent and has a 40 (60 if resolve activates)% chance to activate) version of it from Radiant Dawn and Roy doesn’t have skills in his game.
Shulk does have Monado Purge for use as a Projectile (20m) and Stream Edge hits twice as far out (8m) as regular attacks in a horizontal manner similar to Ike’s Ragnell waves. I believe that Monado Eater has twice the range (15m) of Stream Edge and also hits in a arc and Monado Cyclone hits everything around him as far out as Monado Purge could reach (20m). Shulk's normal attacks typically have a range of 4m by comparison.

I was referring to Marth’s anti-direct attack defenses.

 

[Crystanium]

And they're not programmed that way because the developers never meant for them to come into contact with lava in the first place. It's like how background areas often don't have collision programmed in (because the player isn't meant to be there) and you can just fall through them if you somehow manage to mod/hack/glitch your way there.

This isn't going anywhere.

Items that appear in multiple games get their attributes combined. The Power Bomb is slower in more games than it's instantaneous in (it's more consistent), so we use that speed rather than that depicted in Other M.

I don't see why I should accept that notion.

Hahaha. You're kidding, right?

Sonic is commonly stated to be the "fastest thing alive", and Robotnik is alive. Robotnik cannot be faster than Sonic according to lore. This is an example of why we shouldn't make these sorts of comparisons. If object A is slowed down so that the game can handle it, and object B is at the top speed that the game can handle, they're essentially using two different scales. It's like a chart with two bars of data (taller depending on how large the variable is). Bar A is taller than bar B, but the chart is cropped at bar B's top, so they seem like they're the same size when they're really not.

If Robotnik has outran Sonic multiple times in different games, then he is faster than Sonic, or at least faster than sound if Sonic has been running at that speed in all these instances. It doesn't mean Robotnik is the fastest thing alive in the Sonicverse, since Sonic can clearly reach hypersonic speed and briefly dash at light speed.

So how about using Kelvin if your going to be scientific about everything?

I have. My last post was concerning the temperature of the power bomb, which I said "6,000 K".

Does that make the Links fire types as well because they “fire” arrows?

Nah. Link is fighting- and fairy-type. Hahaha!

 

[Kirby Dragons]

How much Bigger?

Ranging from eight inches (Meta Knight) to planet-sized (NOVA).

Isn’t this battlefield supposed to be neutral ground where characters have access to all their canon capabilities?

That's not an actual rule.

And he could use a different attack.

Whatever attack that is, it would be easier to dodge than Ultra Flame. Although, Ultra Flame would be just as easy to dodge as regular fireballs, seeing as they bounce.

They seem to curve quie a bit, as if they have homing prroperties. I don't have video atm, but look up a twenty-minute video on Mario's Smash moveset origins or something along those lines, and it should be near the end of that.

I didn't actually see anything resembling a homing property. Or if you meant that they bounce, that just shows they're affected by gravity.

 

[Munomario777]

Whatever attack that is, it would be easier to dodge than Ultra Flame. Although, Ultra Flame would be just as easy to dodge as regular fireballs, seeing as they bounce.

How about a Mega Mushroom? Would that be easier to dodge?

I didn't actually see anything resembling a homing property. Or if you meant that they bounce, that just shows they're affected by gravity.

I can see the Ultra Flame turning mid-flight towards the target.

 

[Nerdicon]

How exactly is the 8 inch tall Kirby going to cut the 67 inch Shulk to bits (that’s more of a size difference than Shulk vs Metal Face)? The Debuff Resist gem should nullify any of the thunder sword’s paralyzing power and Shulk wears armor (medium and heavy with a skill link) that would be a bit of a out of context problem for Kirby(It takes multiple blows from a sword just to break Meta Knight’s mask!). Can the Warp Star really go at warp speed and can Kirby fight effectively from it without crashing it into Shulk(does the Warp Star also benefit from the effects of the invincibility candy)? Shulk would get a vision before the match starts and could apply Shield or Armor than.

Easy, jump on the warp star and apply the invincibility candy, then fly at Shulk and slash him. Dead. OHKO-ed. Why? Well I lost all the information in this post full of math and stuff but the end result was if Kirby flew the Warp Star at light speed into someone it would generate more than 2,041,375,989.81 Newtons. This isn't even counting the mass of the warp star, Kirby's shoes, or his sword. This would easily kill Shulk who can be one shot from a long fall, by comparison a 302 pound man moving at 1,000 mph would only generate 61,244 newtons.
Monado Shield wouldn't work as this isn't a Talent Art. As a matter of fact, it's the equivalent of an auto attack just at a really fast speed.

 

[Crystanium]

Easy, jump on the warp star and apply the invincibility candy, then fly at Shulk and slash him. Dead. OHKO-ed. Why? Well I lost all the information in this post full of math and stuff but the end result was if Kirby flew the Warp Star at light speed into someone it would generate more than 2,041,375,989.81 Newtons. This isn't even counting the mass of the warp star, Kirby's shoes, or his sword. This would easily kill Shulk who can be one shot from a long fall, by comparison a 302 pound man moving at 1,000 mph would only generate 61,244 newtons.
Monado Shield wouldn't work as this isn't a Talent Art. As a matter of fact, it's the equivalent of an auto attack just at a really fast speed.

I'm still wondering why Kirby gets to have the warp star. As I said before, if he can have that, then Samus should get her gunship, which is 7.5 times faster than light. She'd be at the top. Sorry, Sonic. Even with the warp star, Kirby wouldn't be generating 2,041,375,989.81 newtons (229,460.87 tons-force). The reason is because light doesn't have mass and Kirby is definitely not generating infinite energy. F = ma is not used during relativistic momentum. Rather, p = E/c is used, where p is momentum, E is energy, and c is the speed of light.

Using this image, the wavelength of visible light is 0.5 * 10^-6 meters and the frequency is around 10^15 Hz. To find energy, we would multiply Planck's constant times the frequency. This results in a total energy of 6.62607 * 10^-19 newton meters. Since we have the energy, we'll divide it by the speed of light, which would give us a momentum of 2.21022 * 10^-27 kg m/s. That's not a very large amount of force like the one you presented. Now, this is the momentum of one photon, so the momentum will be higher, but I doubt it would be strong enough to hurt anyone on the roster.

 

[Nerdicon]

I'm still wondering why Kirby gets to have the warp star. As I said before, if he can have that, then Samus should get her gunship, which is 7.5 times faster than light. She'd be at the top. Sorry, Sonic. Even with the warp star, Kirby wouldn't be generating 2,041,375,989.81 newtons (229,460.87 tons-force). The reason is because light doesn't have mass and Kirby is definitely not generating infinite energy. F = ma is not used during relativistic momentum. Rather, p = E/c is used, where p is momentum, E is energy, and c is the speed of light.

Using this image, the wavelength of visible light is 0.5 * 10^-6 meters and the frequency is around 10^15 Hz. To find energy, we would multiply Planck's constant times the frequency. This results in a total energy of 6.62607 * 10^-19 newton meters. Since we have the energy, we'll divide it by the speed of light, which would give us a momentum of 2.21022 * 10^-27 kg m/s. That's not a very large amount of force like the one you presented. Now, this is the momentum of one photon, so the momentum will be higher, but I doubt it would be strong enough to hurt anyone on the roster.

Interesting, one problem though we have no idea how much energy the warp star produces. I was aware that to move at the speed of light one has to have infinite energy which, while a stretch, is possible with the warp star. It can fly for a seemingly infinite amount of time at relatively high speeds (Milky Way Wishes). We don't know where it gets the energy and whatever it is, it doesn't seem to run down. If it truly does have an infinite pool of energy then moving at light speed is feasible.
This however gets snagged by how infinity works, if there is an infinite amount of energy available, yet the work required needs infinite energy, what happens?
In this case the warp star would be able to move near the speed of light but whether it could move at the speed of light is questionable. It's really a question my feeble teenage mind can't comprehend. So how does Samus' miracle ship move that fast anyway? Because that is physically impossible, nothing can move faster than light. Especially concerning objects with mass, considering they need infinite energy to even reach the speed.

 

[Crystanium]

Interesting, one problem though we have no idea how much energy the warp star produces. I was aware that to move at the speed of light one has to have infinite energy which, while a stretch, is possible with the warp star. It can fly for a seemingly infinite amount of time at relatively high speeds (Milky Way Wishes). We don't know where it gets the energy and whatever it is, it doesn't seem to run down. If it truly does have an infinite pool of energy then moving at light speed is feasible.
This however gets snagged by how infinity works, if there is an infinite amount of energy available, yet the work required needs infinite energy, what happens?
In this case the warp star would be able to move near the speed of light but whether it could move at the speed of light is questionable. It's really a question my feeble teenage mind can't comprehend. So how does Samus' miracle ship move that fast anyway? Because that is physically impossible, nothing can move faster than light. Especially concerning objects with mass, considering they need infinite energy to even reach the speed.

You're right. We don't know how much energy it produces. If an object traveled even 10% the speed of light, nothing is going to survive as everything will be essentially a nuclear bomb. Well, at least in a region filled with a medium like gas or liquid. Chances are, the warp star works similarly to that of the Alcubierre drive in that it would contract space in front of it and expand space behind it so that it would travel FTL while not breaking general relativity. This may not be how the warp star is portrayed, but it would make the most sense. This is likely what's occurring with Samus' gunship as well, as you can see here.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

I don't think Kirby should get Warp Star since its not part of him and instead is an item that he can't carry either (unlike Mario with his items) and if he gets it, then others should get their own means of transportation (like Gunship for Samus). Unless there is a game where he can generate those at will of course, but i haven't seen this happening.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I just thought it would be a good idea, but okay if you think otherwise.

Yea, like I said, if you want to say Fire Kirby takes extra damage hydro pump that's fine, but assigning characters types in general doesn't work.

Not actually going to disagree with this, but basically what Bagan and I said. He is made of ether, so he can alter himself for any modifications necessary to defeat his opponent.

If you're trying to say he can make his Sword into a gun to overcome his lack of projectiles, I can buy that, although I'd like to see the scene in the game where he Reckless said he did it. I suppose if Zanza gave himself wings, there's no reason Shulk can't.

Control over fire would be necessary to make those complex Mario Finale-esque shapes, I'd imagine.

There's a difference between the ability to control fire versus being able to just generate fire from your body and control that specific fire. Firebenders can control any fire, Mario just can generate fire and shoot it (and depending on the game, manipulate it).

Yeah, I'm not content with that because it ignores what's quantifiable.

Understandable, gaming physics is not done in a way that makes these discussions easy.

I don't have Metroid: Zero Mission or Metroid Fusion on me, but I'm certain in those games, the same can be done. Again, these games even portray relative velocity, meaning that even if these weapons couldn't travel supersonic, they would be able to if Samus was using the speed booster.

Oh ok

Arwings can travel Mach 4.2. That'd be their atmospheric speed, meaning that sound travels at least 660 mi/h at an altitude of 20,000 feet. If we take 660 mi/h and multiply it by 4.2, then an arwing can travel 2,772 mi/h.

...So even if they only go at half speed, they still are probably going to be too fast for Pokemon to deal with. Combined with their barrel roll shield and lasers, I'm thinking I was right to rank them over Pokemon.

I did use that option but it looks like I might have posted the wrong link in the 1st instance (Facepalm). Should I also add a time in the text as well? I brought up that 1st link of Shulk deflecting Jade face’s attack because it could be used as ammo in a tennis match between Shulk and Ganondorf.

Either doing the URL thing or adding time in the text works. Whichever is easy for you bud.
And I got the part about deflecting attacks, although against Ganon specifically the question is if the Monado counts as holy. I say yes.

Counter (http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Counter) returns damage every time the user is attacked right? This sounds an awful lot like the counter spike from Xenoblade (http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Spike). The best way to beat that would be to equip one of the spike defense gems (75%) and link Melia’s Rejection of Evil skill (50%) for a total of 100% spike defense. That setup should negate the effects of Counter. Lucina and Robin are the ones who have the overpowered counter skill, while Ike would have to make due with the weaker (half as potent and has a 40 (60 if resolve activates)% chance to activate) version of it from Radiant Dawn and Roy doesn’t have skills in his game.

Hmmm, I guess they're similar enough that it counts as a way to negate counter.

Shulk does have Monado Purge for use as a Projectile (20m) and Stream Edge hits twice as far out (8m) as regular attacks in a horizontal manner similar to Ike’s Ragnell waves. I believe that Monado Eater has twice the range (15m) of Stream Edge and also hits in a arc and Monado Cyclone hits everything around him as far out as Monado Purge could reach (20m). Shulk's normal attacks typically have a range of 4m by comparison.

Eh, purge is a projectile, but it's something he can spam the way Robin can her various spells or Lucina can her spears.
Imagine this:

• Greninja sends surf at Shulk.
• Shulk splits it open with Monado Purge
• Greninja fires hydro pump
• Shulk jumps out of way
• However Greninja fires another Surf at him while in air. Surf's a wide range attack, plus he's in the air, so dodging is unlikely. And he hasn't hit Greninja to have recovered enough talent gauge to use Purge while coming at Greninja.

Or something like that. He can probably block Lucina's spears, but I don't see him deflecting a steady stream of projectile Pokemon attacks. And since they'd all be special attacks, I don't think Speed works.
Eater, Cyclone and Stream aren't actually projectiles, but they do count as long (more like medium) range. I'll definitely bump him up on my next tier list.

I was referring to Marth’s anti-direct attack defenses.

Oh. I'd think it would work.

Ranging from eight inches (Meta Knight) to planet-sized (NOVA).

The latter is misleading, he destroys NOVA by blowing up several crystals the same size as him in the Starship. He doesn't physically defeat a planet sized being in a fight.
I don't doubt Kirby's attacks hurt (would you want an 8 inch sword through an important body part?), but I have been wondering if a number of characters (presuming he's knocked off of his Warp Star) couldn't just grab Kirby and crush him with their hands (only works for the really large characters) or stomp him till he loses all his bars.

I don't think Kirby should get Warp Star since its not part of him and instead is an item that he can't carry either (unlike Mario with his items) and if he gets it, then others should get their own means of transportation (like Gunship for Samus). Unless there is a game where he can generate those at will of course, but i haven't seen this happening.

Kirby can call for one on his cellphone (from Kirby 64: Crystal Shards and the Amazing Mirrror (GBA).

 

[Kirby Dragons]

How about a Mega Mushroom? Would that be easier to dodge?

Yep, seeing as (Mega) Mewtwo can fly and Mega Mario can't.

I can see the Ultra Flame turning mid-flight towards the target.

I didn't actually see that, but maybe it has homing properties by itself.

I'd be fine with Zamus/Samus getting the Gunship, it would just be in the arena next to her.

 

[Munomario777]

Yep, seeing as (Mega) Mewtwo can fly and Mega Mario can't.

Cape Feather -> Mega Mushroom. We've been over this before.

I didn't actually see that, but maybe it has homing properties by itself.

Seeing as how Mario is the one choosing who he wants to attack (the fireballs don't hit his party members), he seems to have control over their direction.

I'd be fine with Zamus/Samus getting the Gunship, it would just be in the arena next to her.

I'm not sure how useful the FTL travel would be anyways, because A) Samus might not be able to control it effectively in this small area (I'd imagine it's usually used for interplanetary travel) and B) light speed and 7x light speed are still going to cross ten miles nearly instantaneously. I haven't found a source for this speed, by the way.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I don't doubt Kirby's attacks hurt (would you want an 8 inch sword through an important body part?), but I have been wondering if a number of characters (presuming he's knocked off of his Warp Star) couldn't just grab Kirby and crush him with their hands (only works for the really large characters) or stomp him till he loses all his bars.

If someone does that, Kirby can just become Needle Kirby, eject his needles, and attack their hand, causing them to let go.

Cape Feather -> Mega Mushroom. We've been over this before.

Aura Sphere (which can't be dodged) knocks the Cape Flower out. Mario can't use that many more flying power-ups, because his reserves don't have infinite space. Seeing as Mewtwo and Mario would both be flying, this would be the equivalent of a flying battle, where the fighters can hit each other with anything.

Or when Mario switches to Mega Mario, he'd begin to fall, while Mewtwo simply flies backward.

Also, if Mario becomes a statue, it likely won't protect him from anything. Statue Leaf/Lucky Bell aren't like Protect, seeing as one is a forcefield, and one turns you into stone. One blocks pretty much anything, while strong attacks can go through the Statue Leaf/Lucky Bell. Any of Mega Mewtwo's attacks should work here, given his Sp. Atk stat.

Seeing as how Mario is the one choosing who he wants to attack (the fireballs don't hit his party members), he seems to have control over their direction.

Okay then, that makes sense.

I'm not sure how useful the FTL travel would be anyways, because A) Samus might not be able to control it effectively in this small area (I'd imagine it's usually used for interplanetary travel) and B) light speed and 7x light speed are still going to cross ten miles nearly instantaneously. I haven't found a source for this speed, by the way.

True, maybe she wouldn't use it even if she had it.

As for the Eggman deal, gameplay > lore, so that means Robotnik is faster.

 

[Munomario777]

Aura Sphere (which can't be dodged) knocks the Cape Flower out. Mario can't use that many more flying power-ups, because his reserves don't have infinite space. Seeing as Mewtwo and Mario would both be flying, this would be the equivalent of a flying battle, where the fighters can hit each other with anything.

Aura Sphere can be dodged by using Fly. Again, we have already been over this.

Or when Mario switches to Mega Mario, he'd begin to fall, while Mewtwo simply flies backward.

How quickly can Mewtwo fly? The Ground Pound is rather quick, especially if Mario started right on top of Mewtwo.

Also, if Mario becomes a statue, it likely won't protect him from anything. Statue Leaf/Lucky Bell aren't like Protect, seeing as one is a forcefield, and one turns you into stone. One blocks pretty much anything, while strong attacks can go through the Statue Leaf/Lucky Bell. Any of Mega Mewtwo's attacks should work here, given his Sp. Atk stat.

The statue forms have been shown to have Starman levels of invincibility, so anything that the Starman protects against should also apply to the statue forms.

Okay then, that makes sense.

True, maybe she wouldn't use it even if she had it.

I could see it being used for extra protection, or perhaps the added firepower.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Aura Sphere can be dodged by using Fly. Again, we have already been over this.

It can't be dodged if the attacker is flying too (flying battles).

How quickly can Mewtwo fly? The Ground Pound is rather quick, especially if Mario started right on top of Mewtwo.

At an average speed. IIRC, the Ground Pound has a bit of lag. I know that becoming Mega Mario has lag, and after he transforms, he can't get above Mewtwo anymore.

Or if Mario isn't Mega, the Ground Pound will do pretty much nothing against Mega Mewtwo's Defense stat.

The statue forms have been shown to have Starman levels of invincibility, so anything that the Starman protects against should also apply to the statue forms.

Starman wouldn't protect Mario from Mewtwo's attacks, either. They're simply too powerful, more powerful than the attacks of a universal creator.

 

[Munomario777]

It can't be dodged if the attacker is flying too (flying battles).

...because there is no simple dodging in Pokemon. Yet again, we have already been over this. Additionally, Pokemon with the ability "Bulletproof" are immune to Aura Sphere. Starman Mario is immune to Bullet Bills. Even if that's not the case, the description of the attack really doesn't mean much. It reads, "The user lets loose a blast of aura power from deep within its body at the target. This attack never misses." "Never misses" =/= "cannot miss". For example, my house has never been destroyed by an atomic bomb. It could happen, but it has not happened. The same goes for Aura Sphere. Not to mention that the description is inaccurate anyways, since it does miss if the target is using Dig, Dive, or Fly.

At an average speed. IIRC, the Ground Pound has a bit of lag. I know that becoming Mega Mario has lag, and after he transforms, he can't get above Mewtwo anymore.

The Mega Mushroom transformation does take a second to grow, but as demonstrated in 3D World, Mario can still act during that time. The Ground Pound descends rather quickly, and could even be activated whilst growing to use it quickly.

Or if Mario isn't Mega, the Ground Pound will do pretty much nothing against Mega Mewtwo's Defense stat.

As shown in the Galaxy games, the Ground Pound can crush over ten layers of stone at once.

Starman wouldn't protect Mario from Mewtwo's attacks, either. They're simply too powerful, more powerful than the attacks of a universal creator.

Do you have actual proof that Mewtwo's attacks would harm Mario under the effects of the Starman?

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Starman wouldn't protect Mario from Mewtwo's attacks, either. They're simply too powerful, more powerful than the attacks of a universal creator.

Same universal creator can be caught by a 11 years old boy without using Mewtwo. Arceus obviously isn't as powerful as he should be when fought for whatever reasons. I mean...universal creator can actually be defeated by one of his creations without it being epic battle that destroys half of the continent?

Kirby can call for one on his cellphone (from Kirby 64: Crystal Shards and the Amazing Mirrror (GBA).

...thats something i did not expected to hear. And since its not sentient as far as i remember, that isn't against outside assistance rule.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

...because there is no simple dodging in Pokemon. Yet again, we have already been over this. Additionally, Pokemon with the ability "Bulletproof" are immune to Aura Sphere. Starman Mario is immune to Bullet Bills. Even if that's not the case, the description of the attack really doesn't mean much. It reads, "The user lets loose a blast of aura power from deep within its body at the target. This attack never misses." "Never misses" =/= "cannot miss". For example, my house has never been destroyed by an atomic bomb. It could happen, but it has not happened. The same goes for Aura Sphere. Not to mention that the description is inaccurate anyways, since it does miss if the target is using Dig, Dive, or Fly.

There is dodging in Pokémon. If there wasn't dodging, every attack would hit all the time, and that doesn't happen, due to evasion. Mario already used his Starman. There's nothing that would allow for Aura Sphere to miss, other than those moves. Mario isn't using two of them, and the other one would cause a flying battle because Mewtwo is flying as well.

The Mega Mushroom transformation does take a second to grow, but as demonstrated in 3D World, Mario can still act during that time. The Ground Pound descends rather quickly, and could even be activated whilst growing to use it quickly.

Using a Ground Pound before the Mega Mushroom grows would do pretty much nothing, as I've said before. Meanwhile, Mewtwo could use telekinesis to take the Mega Mushroom and apply it to himself.

As shown in the Galaxy games, the Ground Pound can crush over ten layers of stone at once.

Still not enough power to do anything, especially when Mewtwo uses Barrier.

Do you have actual proof that Mewtwo's attacks would harm Mario under the effects of the Starman?

Starman doesn't block anything that powerful. Getting specific, Invincible Mario can be crushed, and Mewtwo can crush him with telekinesis.

Same universal creator can be caught by a 11 years old boy without using Mewtwo. Arceus obviously isn't as powerful as he should be when fought for whatever reasons. I mean...universal creator can actually be defeated by one of his creations without it being epic battle that destroys half of the continent?

It takes six Pokémon to actually beat Arceus, so the power is divided. Not sure anyone besides Mega Mewtwo can beat Arceus one-on-one.