Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Munomario777]

And you think NPCs from Kakariko Village would be harmed if they were in the same situation?

Presumably, since they're the same species as Link, and Link is vulnerable to lava.

Here's an image from the HD version when Link enters this room of Dragon Roost Cavern.

There are your typical hot spots, which you can find from actual magma, but you wouldn't consider the entirety of it as that temperature. This link shows the temperature of lava and it looks like the dark orange portions (which make up most of the magma) are around 1,300 K (1,026°C). I'll be fine with working at a temperature greater than 700°C since you gave your reasoning.

I see. That seems to match up rather closely with the numbers I found, so I agree to working with that. Also worth noting is that the same effect occurs when entering the hot spots.

In the video, assuming space pirates are at least 7 feet tall (considering they're taller than Samus), maybe 14 feet. The aerotrooper on the right of the one who was hit with the darkburst isn't even touching the rift and ends up getting pulled in. I can only use that as an example since that's what I see in the video. I'll have to test it myself.

I see.

I'm fine dismissing minigames. They're not part of the main story.

They can be in some instances. For instance, the Special Stages are mandatory in Sonic Heroes to access the Last Story, and in Wind Waker, Sword Training is mandatory (you can't leave the starting island without it).

 

[Crystanium]

Presumably, since they're the same species as Link, and Link is vulnerable to lava.

Considering they won't be harmed by fire arrows and Link is vulnerable to extreme heat (flames being at least 1,000°C), I doubt if the game was modded, they'd receive damage if they were placed in magma. Either way, the temperature of a thermobaric weapon exceeds the temperature of even 1,026°C.

I see. That seems to match up rather closely with the numbers I found, so I agree to working with that. Also worth noting is that the same effect occurs when entering the hot spots.

I'm ignoring those hot spots since I'm sure the game is programmed to read that if Link falls into that liquid, he'll receive damage. It'd be like the game being coded so that Link can swim in water instead of falling in and dying as it was in Donkey Kong Country Returns.

They can be in some instances. For instance, the Special Stages are mandatory in Sonic Heroes to access the Last Story, and in Wind Waker, Sword Training is mandatory (you can't leave the starting island without it).

Those are more like side quests, rather than mini-games, which I think should be allowed. Otherwise, Link wouldn't be able to have Epona or the biggoron sword.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Edit: I didn't even know this could be done! Samus kills Vorash with a good chunk of health left simply by throwing it and having it slam against the wall! Damn, Samus! Now I wonder if I can find out how much stronger she is!

I have been telling that a lot. Either you, Munomario or someone else then said that it could be used only if Link is caught off-guard. I also posted image of Vorash and Samus size comparison and someone found out its weight (around a whale's weight, don't remember which one, but its not the blue whale).

They can be in some instances. For instance, the Special Stages are mandatory in Sonic Heroes to access the Last Story, and in Wind Waker, Sword Training is mandatory (you can't leave the starting island without it).

I don't think Sword Training should be considered a minigame and more like a tutorial. But i never played WW, so, im not sure about last part.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

I also posted image of Vorash and Samus size comparison and someone found out its weight.

That was actually me who figured out Vorash's weight;

Vorash is roughly the size of a large humpback whale using the models as a basis, so if we use similar weights that makes Vorash between 30-50 tonnes; and Samus tossed Vorash like he was nothing, meaning that probably wasn't even her full strength. If we use Vorash as a baseline, Samus could probably toss around something around 80-100 tonnes with little effort, and 100-400 if she was trying; 500+ tonnes would need some effort, but she could probably manage it. Keep in mind that Samus is only 198 pounds, too; that is astronomical strength.

So yeah, Samus is pretty strong.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

That was actually me who figured out Vorash's weight;
So yeah, Samus is pretty strong.

Good to know. Makes me wonder why she can't just powerbomb (i mean wrestling move of course) Ridley when she is that powerful and Vorash is obviously a lot bigger and heavier than Ridley.

 

[Munomario777]

Considering they won't be harmed by fire arrows and Link is vulnerable to extreme heat (flames being at least 1,000°C), I doubt if the game was modded, they'd receive damage if they were placed in magma. Either way, the temperature of a thermobaric weapon exceeds the temperature of even 1,026°C.

Fire arrows are attacks from Link, which don't harm NPCs due to game mechanics. Modded games don't hold relevance in this discussion. The NPCs in question aren't designed to ever fall into lava, so this isn't accounted for in the coding.

Again, if a fairy in a bottle can be dropped into lava eighty times in a row and come out unscathed (even if held in Link's hand), it seems unlikely that one Power Bomb would destroy it.

I'm ignoring those hot spots since I'm sure the game is programmed to read that if Link falls into that liquid, he'll receive damage. It'd be like the game being coded so that Link can swim in water instead of falling in and dying as it was in Donkey Kong Country Returns.

I see.

Those are more like side quests, rather than mini-games, which I think should be allowed. Otherwise, Link wouldn't be able to have Epona or the biggoron sword.

Very true. I think a good rule would be that mini-games that are integrated into the main game (such as the Sword Training and Special Stages) should be allowed, while ones that aren't (such as, say, the Megaton Punch) shouldn't. What do you all think?

I don't think Sword Training should be considered a minigame and more like a tutorial. But i never played WW, so, im not sure about last part.

In Wind Waker, the first session is mandatory, but Link can return later into the game to have another, optional session where he learns the Hurricane Spin (a more powerful Spin Attack).

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Good to know. Makes me wonder why she can't just powerbomb (i mean wrestling move of course) Ridley when she is that powerful and Vorash is obviously a lot bigger and heavier than Ridley.

Because that would make the boss fight too easy, obviously.

But in an in-canon sense, she probably just wants to make him feel as much pain as she can inflict on him because of the bad blood between the two, really.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Again, if a fairy in a bottle can be dropped into lava eighty times in a row and come out unscathed (even if held in Link's hand), it seems unlikely that one Power Bomb would destroy it.

Difference between dropping it into the lava eighty times and it being hit once with Power Bomb is large. If one guy can't break bricks after 80 hits, it doesn't means that a noticably stronger guy won't do that either.

Because that would make the boss fight too easy, obviously.

But in an in-canon sense, she probably just wants to make him feel as much pain as she can inflict on him because of the bad blood between the two, really.

Would be awesome to see though.

Makes sense. He is badly messed up after Other M fight and ZM fight ended with him being pretty much out of business.

In Wind Waker, the first session is mandatory, but Link can return later into the game to have another, optional session where he learns the Hurricane Spin (a more powerful Spin Attack).

Then its more of a side quest.

 

[Munomario777]

Difference between dropping it into the lava eighty times and it being hit once with Power Bomb is large. If one guy can't break bricks after 80 hits, it doesn't means that a noticably stronger guy won't do that either.

If there was any sign of wear, tear, damage, melting, etc., then I would agree, but the fairy and its bottle are completely unscathed.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

If there was any sign of wear, tear, damage, melting, etc., then I would agree, but the fairy and its bottle are completely unscathed.

Then again, Power Bomb doesn't just generates heat (it breaks glass in Maridia that is resistant to everything else Samus has and it breaks various blocks like this too, so, it certainly does more than just generates heat), so, its not the best comparison.

 

[Crystanium]

I have been telling that a lot. Either you, Munomario or someone else then said that it could be used only if Link is caught off-guard. I also posted image of Vorash and Samus size comparison and someone found out its weight.

I figured Samus could throw her opponents with the grapple beam. If you were telling me that Vorash can be thrown, then I apologize for misunderstanding you. Basing the image you provided of Vorash with one of these looks like it would match the carcharodon megalodon (conservative). Vorash gets a bit thinner, but I think the fact that it's covered in lava could at least make the mass comparable. Vorash is just slightly longer than 13 Samus', or about 24.7 meters long.

According to Wikipedia, "Gottfried and colleagues introduced a method to determine the mass of the great white after studying the length–mass relationship data of 175 specimens at various growth stages and extrapolated it to estimate C. megalodon's mass. According to their model, a 15.9 metres (52 ft) long megalodon would have a mass of about 48 metric tons (53 short tons),[4][6] a 17 metres (56 ft) long megalodon would have a mass of about 59 metric tons (65 short tons),[6] and a 20.3 metres (67 ft) long megalodon would have a mass of 103 metric tons (114 short tons).[4][6]"

Clearly, Vorash is longer, but it becomes thinner. The size difference doesn't seem all that different from the red colored megadolon, though. I could use the 59 metric tons, which is 59,000 kilograms. Since megadolons could swim, their density wouldn't be too far off from water, which is typically considered 1 kg/m^3. Dividing 59,000 by 1 still results in 59,000. Since Vorash is denser than lava, the mass can be multiplied by 3 (using 3 kg/m^3), giving Vorash a mass of 177,000 kg., or 177 metric tons (195.1 short tons).

Then again, Power Bomb doesn't just generates heat (it breaks glass in Maridia that is resistant to everything else Samus has and it breaks various blocks like this too, so, it certainly does more than just generates heat), so, its not the best comparison.

Not only that, but Samus has done this in Metroid: Zero Mission, Metroid Prime, Super Metroid, and Metroid: Other M. This is something I already pointed out, but unfortunately, nothing has changed.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

I figured Samus could throw her opponents with the grapple beam. If you were telling me that Vorash can be thrown, then I apologize for misunderstanding you. Basing the image you provided of Vorash with one of these looks like it would match the carcharodon megalodon (conservative). Vorash gets a bit thinner, but I think the fact that it's covered in lava could at least make the mass comparable. Vorash is just slightly longer than 13 Samus', or about 24.7 meters long.

According to Wikipedia, "Gottfried and colleagues introduced a method to determine the mass of the great white after studying the length–mass relationship data of 175 specimens at various growth stages and extrapolated it to estimate C. megalodon's mass. According to their model, a 15.9 metres (52 ft) long megalodon would have a mass of about 48 metric tons (53 short tons),[4][6] a 17 metres (56 ft) long megalodon would have a mass of about 59 metric tons (65 short tons),[6] and a 20.3 metres (67 ft) long megalodon would have a mass of 103 metric tons (114 short tons).[4][6]"

Clearly, Vorash is longer, but it becomes thinner. The size difference doesn't seem all that different from the red colored megadolon, though. I could use the 59 metric tons, which is 59,000 kilograms. Since megadolons could swim, their density wouldn't be too far off from water, which is typically considered 1 kg/m^3. Dividing 59,000 by 1 still results in 59,000. Since Vorash is denser than lava, the mass can be multiplied by 3 (using 3 kg/m^3), giving Vorash a mass of 177,000 kg., or 177 metric tons (195.1 short tons).

Thats impressive. Thats a very heavy fish then and yet Samus throws it easily. But then why does it takes effort to pull off various things in Metroid Prime 3?

Not only that, but Samus has done this in Metroid: Zero Mission, Metroid Prime, Super Metroid, and Metroid: Other M. This is something I already pointed out, but unfortunately, nothing has changed.

I don't remember it breaking things like glass in Other M, but others still count.

 

[Crystanium]

Fire arrows are attacks from Link, which don't harm NPCs due to game mechanics. Modded games don't hold relevance in this discussion. The NPCs in question aren't designed to ever fall into lava, so this isn't accounted for in the coding.

Exactly. And the same can be said of fairies. Modding is relevant because it actually can tell us about how the game was programmed and why. For example, lightbringers are creatures made by the Luminoth who are capable of being killed by anti-matter. By the time Samus acquires the annihilator beam, she cannot test this because lightbringers are only around up until Samus defeats Amorbis. Making it so Samus can have the annihilator beam early on shows that one shot from the annihilator beam, which uses anti-matter, kills the lightbringer instantly. But even if I went ahead and agreed with you, all we could surmise is that fairies can withstand temperatures up to 1,026°C, which is not 2,500 or 3,000°C.

Again, if a fairy in a bottle can be dropped into lava eighty times in a row and come out unscathed (even if held in Link's hand), it seems unlikely that one Power Bomb would destroy it.

I've already addressed this. Repeating an assertion doesn't make it any more valid than before.

Very true. I think a good rule would be that mini-games that are integrated into the main game (such as the Sword Training and Special Stages) should be allowed, while ones that aren't (such as, say, the Megaton Punch) shouldn't. What do you all think?

I'd agree.

Thats impressive. Thats a very heavy fish then and yet Samus throws it easily. But then why does it takes effort to pull off various things in Metroid Prime 3?

Throwing isn't the same as pulling. In SkyTown, Elysia, when Samus needs to acquire the spider ball, she tosses up a large gear with the flick of her wrist.

I don't remember it breaking things like glass in Other M, but others still count.

 

[Munomario777]

Exactly. And the same can be said of fairies. Modding is relevant because it actually can tell us about how the game was programmed and why. For example, lightbringers are creatures made by the Luminoth who are capable of being killed by anti-matter. By the time Samus acquires the annihilator beam, she cannot test this because lightbringers are only around up until Samus defeats Amorbis. Making it so Samus can have the annihilator beam early on shows that one shot from the annihilator beam, which uses anti-matter, kills the lightbringer instantly. But even if I went ahead and agreed with you, all we could surmise is that fairies can withstand temperatures up to 1,026°C, which is not 2,500 or 3,000°C.

Modding is irrelevant, because it puts the game in situations that were unintended by the developers. NPCs are not in a position in the game to be able to fall into lava, so they wouldn't be programmed to interact with lava because of game mechanics. It's very possible for a fairy to come in contact with the lava, though, so the developers not intending it cannot be the answer. If modding is relevant, then we might as well allow glitches. Out of curiosity, how did you come to your conclusion on the Power Bomb's heat energy? I can't find the post. :/

I'd agree.

Glad we're on the same page, then.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I have nothing to add.

I think its better to keep it limited to playable characters.

Agreed. Trying to rank 50+ characters is hassle as it is.

And Sonic Boom is said to use sound despite it behaving in completly different way and being made of dark and light energy while descriptions for some pokemons are absurd like that snail that is hotter than sun itself and another steel pokemon being able to survive a direct hit from crashing jet/plane/whatever despite weaker attacks being able to damage him. Its better to use what game itself shows, so, someone should make accurate calculations based on how quickly Link passes 10 squares in aLttP rather than its description. Wind doesn't has a set speed either, so, its unreliable.

But what about someone like Sonic who is said by lore to able to reach Mach 1 or 2 easily but clearly isn't shown going that fast in gameplay, and even in some cutscenes?

I still think this should only be applicable without actually considering the amount of PP/FP/BP. As I mentioned before, 1 HP or PP, or anything like that might be 100 HP or PP, or whatever in some other series. To even think we're using game mechanics is rather silly when approaching characters at a somewhat more realistic level. Like reaching 0 HP can mean exhaustion or death, 0 PP or the like should be considered as "depleted". Blastoise wouldn't have an unlimited supply of water, for example.

But isn't that exactly what it is? Blastoise's Hyrdo Pump uses a lot of water, so obviously it wouldn't be able to use that as often as water gun, something that requires less water.

I think this should be changed. Sound waves from beepboxers and those like them travel incredibly slower by comparison to how fast real sound travels. It's known that games do not portray speeds as they would realistically. Cannonballs on the airship in Mario games travel slower than actual cannonballs, but here's where it gets worse. Mario can jump vertically and drop faster than a cannonball being fired vertically down. If we assume all gravity is equal for all games, then the cannonball should be moving faster than Mario. It does not move faster than him, however. When it come to characters dodging or moving at a certain speed, I think what really matters is consistency. If we saw Mario dodging or outrunning lightning, we could dismiss this as an outlier because it's not something Mario does consistently. If he dodges or outruns cannonballs (and we know he can dodge and keep up with sound waves), then Mario's speed and reaction time should be considered.

I get where you're coming from, but it's possible that these attacks are operating on a different physics system, especially in game like Mario with so much weirdness. Realistically, Mario would have to be running fast to dodge/outrun these cannonballs, but then again if we were being real, how would just getting a raccoon tail and ears suddenly make him capable of flight, especially given his weight. I think (and probably people who voted For this think) it's more likely they simply disregard physics rather than couldn't program it. I think Pokemon is actually a good example. There are many attacks that supposedly involve soundwaves but can be clearly be seen coming and dodged. If Pokemon can dodge these, they should never get hit by slower attacks yet they do. These attacks probably have similarity to sound (in how they cause damage) but don't actually move at the speed of sound. Same with Beepbooxers.

While I'm at it, in Super Metroid, Samus' own super missile outruns her. She never has time to catch up. The way I did this was by using my speed booster and then crouching so I could shinespark. Before I shinesparked, I fired a super missile and then shinesparked immediately after. Samus can never catch up. She can maintain the same speed as her missiles, but they'll outrun her after a second or so. From what I recall, her beams are slower, probably in the sonic or subsonic range.

So are you claiming the speed of the missiles is exaggerated since (to my knowledge) missiles have never been stated to go at supersonic speeds?

Even though he's Fire Red/Leaf Green, which didn't have mega evolution?

Him not being able to use Mega stones would be the equivalent of letting his Dragonite (if he had one) use Dragon Claw on Jigglypuff just because Fairy types weren't invented yet. Mega Stones are something that were retconned into existence, and like I mentioned there was the anime special Pokemon Origins which took place in Kanto starring Red, and it had Mega Stones.

I don't think that everyone has voted on this. I also ask for a recount, since I don't feel this takes into account the effects this would have on the discussion as a whole. If we're not counting Chao Garden, then we should also exclude other minigames and such from this discussion.

The only people who didn't vote on this was Nerdicon. Everyone else voted for it.

That includes:

• Sub-games from the Kirby series (notable changes from excluding this include the removal of Megaton Punch, Milky Way Wishes's measurement of the Warp Star's speed, and such).
• Minigames from the Mario series.
• Minigames from the Zelda series (notable changes include the Auction's exclusive Piece of Heart, Sword Training being removed so Link isn't skilled with a sword (or extra techniques such as the Hurricane Spin), and such).
• Special Stages from the Sonic series (this is where Sonic gets the Chaos Emeralds in his games, so if we remove this, Sonic doesn't get the Chaos Emeralds; also worth noting is that both the Special Stages and Chao Garden are accessed by finding something inside of the stage (for Special Stages, it's fifty Rings in most games or in some games a special key and such, while for the Chao Garden, it's a special key found in each stage)).
• Et cetera, et cetera.

We're not excluding mini-games, we're excluding mini-games that take place outside of the story. Nothing from Chao Garden goes back to the main mode, unlike Sonic going into Special Stages. As for you're specific examples:

• I was already discounting Megaton Punch because it was a mini-game, but Milky Way Wish isn't a mini-game.
• What mini-games outside the story from Mario are we including?
• This was already answered by others.
• ditto

Very true. I think a good rule would be that mini-games that are integrated into the main game (such as the Sword Training and Special Stages) should be allowed, while ones that aren't (such as, say, the Megaton Punch) shouldn't. What do you all think?

This is more or less what I was trying to say for why Chao Garden shouldn't be allowed. But I agree.

Also, what is this discussion about Power bombs and fairies and bottles.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Throwing isn't the same as pulling. In SkyTown, Elysia, when Samus needs to acquire the spider ball, she tosses up a large gear with the flick of her wrist.

It still shouldn't be that hard to pull the shield out of a common space pirate's hands.

Oh, forgot about that.

But what about someone like Sonic who is said by lore to able to reach Mach 1 or 2 easily but clearly isn't shown going that fast in gameplay, and even in some cutscenes?

He is never consistent with his speed (compare Unleashed and Sonic the Hedgehog for Genesis), so, i don't know.

Also, what is this discussion about Power bombs and fairies and bottles.

Can Power Bomb destroy the bottle and incinerate fairy inside or not. I think it SHOULD, but at other hand LoZ has magic as something very common, so, its hard to tell.

 

[Munomario777]

The only people who didn't vote on this was Nerdicon. Everyone else voted for it.

I see.

We're not excluding mini-games, we're excluding mini-games that take place outside of the story. Nothing from Chao Garden goes back to the main mode, unlike Sonic going into Special Stages. As for you're specific examples:

• I was already discounting Megaton Punch because it was a mini-game, but Milky Way Wish isn't a mini-game.
• What mini-games outside the story from Mario are we including?
• This was already answered by others.
• ditto

• It's a "sub-game" (on the same level as the Megaton Punch), and it's not integrated into the story AFAIK.
  
• The ones from Super Mario 64 DS and New Super Mario Bros. DS come to mind.
• Yup.
• 

This is more or less what I was trying to say for why Chao Garden shouldn't be allowed. But I agree.

Actually, the Chao Garden is integrated into the main game in multiple ways. Aside from Rings carrying over to the Chao Garden, there are also Chaos Drives and Animals found in enemies and such. These are used in the Chao Garden, and you can give them to your Chao to teach them new abilities or increase their stats. Even the way you access the Chao Garden is integrated into the main game. In each level, there is a "Chao Key", which is found hidden in a box somewhere in the stage. If the character collects it and then finishes the stage, they will be brought to the Chao Garden after reaching the Goal Ring. Heck, there's even highway signs that say "Chao Garden" on them in games like Sonic Unleashed! Finally, the Chao Garden is on the same world map as every other stage in the game, and even has its own island shaped like a Chao head.

Also, what is this discussion about Power bombs and fairies and bottles.

Whether or not a Power Bomb would destroy a fairy and the bottle it's in. Seeing as how the Power Bomb is apparently a heat-based weapon, and the fairies in bottles have been shown to endure extreme heat (Link can fall into lava with one multiple times and it comes out unscathed), I'm on the side that they could survive it, while Dryn is against it.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Seeing as how the Power Bomb is apparently a heat-based weapon,

Heat is the main threat coming from the Power Bomb, but its not the only effect it has. It can break (not melt) very tough (for a lack of better word) glass that even Shinespark and Super Missiles can't break.

 

[Munomario777]

Heat is the main threat coming from the Power Bomb, but its not the only effect it has. It can break (not melt) very tough (for a lack of better word) glass that even Shinespark and Super Missiles can't break.

I see. The glass in Link's bottles also seems to be rather resilient to explosions, since it can be exploded as many times as Link itself can and still remain intact.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

I see. The glass in Link's bottles also seems to be rather resilient to explosions, since it can be exploded as many times as Link itself can and still remain intact.

As far as i remember, 8 bombs Link has equal 1 Super Missile, which still can't break (or even scratch...at least in Super Metroid) glass Power Bomb breaks. So, it certainly is stronger than that. Unless you are talking about some special explosives because then we need to know how powerful they are.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

He is never consistent with his speed (compare Unleashed and Sonic the Hedgehog for Genesis), so, i don't know.

Can Power Bomb destroy the bottle and incinerate fairy inside or not. I think it SHOULD, but at other hand LoZ has magic as something very common, so, its hard to tell.

Considering Link would never pull the bottle with the fairy out, I'm not sure it matters. I believe Fairies are in invincible, so I'd argue it would survive a power bomb. Theoretically it, and really anything should break the bottle, but they are called Magic Bottles, so maybe they have some impenetrable shield...

I see.

• It's a "sub-game" (on the same level as the Megaton Punch), and it's not integrated into the story AFAIK.
  
• The ones from Super Mario 64 DS and New Super Mario Bros. DS come to mind.
• Yup.
• 

• There is no main story, it's a collection of mini-games and 3 actual adventures by Kirby (plus one by Meta Knight.)
• Like?

Actually, the Chao Garden is integrated into the main game in multiple ways. Aside from Rings carrying over to the Chao Garden, there are also Chaos Drives and Animals found in enemies and such. These are used in the Chao Garden, and you can give them to your Chao to teach them new abilities or increase their stats. Even the way you access the Chao Garden is integrated into the main game. In each level, there is a "Chao Key", which is found hidden in a box somewhere in the stage. If the character collects it and then finishes the stage, they will be brought to the Chao Garden after reaching the Goal Ring. Heck, there's even highway signs that say "Chao Garden" on them in games like Sonic Unleashed! Finally, the Chao Garden is on the same world map as every other stage in the game, and even has its own island shaped like a Chao head.

Yes it gets you can collect things in game to bring to Chao World, but I consider that like collecting collectibles that unlock extra modes. Also doesn't change my point that Sonic's ring count when entering Chao World drastically rises and only for that area.

Whether or not a Power Bomb would destroy a fairy and the bottle it's in. Seeing as how the Power Bomb is apparently a heat-based weapon, and the fairies in bottles have been shown to endure extreme heat (Link can fall into lava with one multiple times and it comes out unscathed), I'm on the side that they could survive it, while Dryn is against it.

Link doesn't physically carry his items on him though, they exist in hammer space.

 

[Munomario777]

As far as i remember, 8 bombs Link has equal 1 Super Missile, which still can't break (or even scratch...at least in Super Metroid) glass Power Bomb breaks. So, it certainly is stronger than that. Unless you are talking about some special explosives because then we need to know how powerful they are.

True, but as Shadow pointed out, hammerspace would prevent the Power Bomb from affecting the fairy.

Considering Link would never pull the bottle with the fairy out, I'm not sure it matters. I believe Fairies are in invincible, so I'd argue it would survive a power bomb. Theoretically it, and really anything should break the bottle, but they are called Magic Bottles, so maybe they have some impenetrable shield...

Yeah, that is a possibility.

• There is no main story, it's a collection of mini-games and 3 actual adventures by Kirby (plus one by Meta Knight.)
• Like?

• I'm just going off of what the wiki says. If that's how it is, then fine.
• There's a bunch of minigames like card games and such. I can't remember many off of the top of my head, but the wiki page should provide some insight.

Yes it gets you can collect things in game to bring to Chao World, but I consider that like collecting collectibles that unlock extra modes. Also doesn't change my point that Sonic's ring count when entering Chao World drastically rises and only for that area.

If this was a mode that had no other connection to the main game, I would agree, but the many connections between the Chao Garden and the main game are too much to ignore. As far as the differing Ring counts go, that's likely because no Sonic Adventure 2 stage has a thousand Rings in it.

Link doesn't physically carry his items on him though, they exist in hammer space.

Yeah, that seems like the most likely explanation.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Considering Link would never pull the bottle with the fairy out, I'm not sure it matters. I believe Fairies are in invincible, so I'd argue it would survive a power bomb. Theoretically it, and really anything should break the bottle, but they are called Magic Bottles, so maybe they have some impenetrable shield...

True, but as Shadow pointed out, hammerspace would prevent the Power Bomb from affecting the fairy.

That makes sense.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Shulk has not used his god powers without Alvis nearby. Since Alvis is powering these god powers, we cannot assume that he could do so from a distance (as in, not in the arena) unless he has been shown doing so in the game.

Considering the fact that things like Monado Arts and visions (powers granted by the Monado) can be used without Alvis nearby, and the god powers are also granted by the Monado, it's pretty safe to say they can be used from a distance. The statement about Alvis being Monado didn't just say he fueled the god powers (or that he fueled anything at all, really).

A flashlight has the ability to shine a concentrated beam of light, but it cannot function without a battery.

Alvis isn't really like a battery though. A battery will eventually run out of power without being destroyed, yet Alvis won't run out of power unless he's destroyed.

Just because Alvis obeys Shulk doesn't mean that he's an item. Koopa Troopas and Goombas obey Bowser, but they are allies, not items, and are not allowed here.

Yet, the Wisps obey Sonic, and they function as items.

Anyways, this topic is quite troubling, so maybe we should take a vote.

So Mario shoots ten fireballs at Mewtwo.

And Mewtwo floats over them. He could also use Disable to stop Mario from throwing fireballs (or doing anything, for that matter).

 

[Munomario777]

Considering the fact that things like Monado Arts and visions (powers granted by the Monado) can be used without Alvis nearby, and the god powers are also granted by the Monado, it's pretty safe to say they can be used from a distance. The statement about Alvis being Monado didn't just say he fueled the god powers (or that he fueled anything at all, really).

Just because Shulk can use Monado Arts and such before he meets Alvis doesn't mean that his God powers can be used without him. Unless we see Shulk use god powers without Alvis being nearby, he cannot use them here.

Alvis isn't really like a battery though. A battery will eventually run out of power without being destroyed, yet Alvis won't run out of power unless he's destroyed.

The battery analogy was focusing on them both being a power source that cannot be removed, or the object being powered will not function.

Yet, the Wisps obey Sonic, and they function as items.

Wisps are items with a sentient alien race skin, and cannot do anything major on their own. Alvis is in many ways an independent character, and we see him doing things without Shulk in multiple cutscenes. Not to mention that Sonic can summon Wisps at any time, since they can be stored in his inventory.

Anyways, this topic is quite troubling, so maybe we should take a vote.

I'm fine with that.

And Mewtwo floats over them. He could also use Disable to stop Mario from throwing fireballs (or doing anything, for that matter).

The most powerful fire attack in Mario's arsenal is basically a scaled-down Mario Finale, and is unaffected by gravity. If Mewtwo uses Disable, then (assuming that he's not using an invincibility item) Mario could just switch to any of his other fire attacks; he has quite a few, in addition to the Fire Flower.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Just because Shulk can use Monado Arts and such before he meets Alvis doesn't mean that his God powers can be used without him. Unless we see Shulk use god powers without Alvis being nearby, he cannot use them here.

It's not that Shulk can use Monado Arts before he meets Alvis, it's that he can use Monado Arts when Alvis isn't around. Monado Arts and the god powers are both equal because they are granted by the Monado. If one can be used without Alvis around, that means the other can be, seeing as they'd both draw power from Alvis.

The battery analogy was focusing on them both being a power source that cannot be removed, or the object being powered will not function.

It's not like Alvis would be nonexistent, though.

Wisps are items with a sentient alien race skin, and cannot do anything major on their own. Alvis is in many ways an independent character, and we see him doing things without Shulk in multiple cutscenes. Not to mention that Sonic can summon Wisps at any time, since they can be stored in his inventory.

That's not actually summoning, that's holding Wisps with him (which Shulk could just do if he grabbed Alvis, or if Alvis put himself inside the sword). The Wisps could detach themselves from Sonic and rapidly attack Sonic's opponent, that's quite major.

I'm fine with that.

Alright then. @ Dastardly Ridleylash @Dryn @ BaganSmashBros @ Nerdicon
Should Shulk be able to use the power that Alvis provides?

It's already 2-2, with Godwin and I being for, and Muno and Shadow being against.

The most powerful fire attack in Mario's arsenal is basically a scaled-down Mario Finale, and is unaffected by gravity. If Mewtwo uses Disable, then (assuming that he's not using an invincibility item) Mario could just switch to any of his other fire attacks; he has quite a few, in addition to the Fire Flower.

Mewtwo could still use Teleport to dodge Ultra Flame (something that is also limited). The other fire attacks would be smaller and easier to dodge by Mewtwo floating.

On an unrelated note, does everyone agree with these being the types everyone would have from Pokemon? We could use these for type advantages/disadvantages and see if a Pokemon attack would be super effective against someone.
Fighting/Fire (second type can be changed with power-ups)
Fighting/Electric (second type can be changed with power-ups)
Fairy/Flying
Fire/Dark
Normal
Flying
Fire
Normal
Normal
Fighting/Ground
Normal
Normal
Fairy/Psychic
Fighting/Dark
Dark
Normal
Steel
Fighting
Flying
Fairy
Ice
Steel
Steel/Fighting
Steel/Electric
Flying
Normal
Flying/Dark
Fighting
Steel/Ground
Steel/Air
Steel/Dark
Electric
Electric
Fire/Flying
Fighting/Steel
Normal/Fairy
Water/Dark
Psychic
Grass
Water
Normal
Fire/Flying
Steel
Psychic
Psychic
Fire/Steel
Normal
Grass/Ground
Fighting
Normal
Flying/Dark
Steel
Steel/Fire
Fighting
Normal
Steel
Air
Steel/Fighting
Fighting
Electric
Steel

 

[Munomario777]

It's not that Shulk can use Monado Arts before he meets Alvis, it's that he can use Monado Arts when Alvis isn't around. Monado Arts and the god powers are both equal because they are granted by the Monado. If one can be used without Alvis around, that means the other can be, seeing as they'd both draw power from Alvis.

By that logic, turning on a car's radio (which requires electricity) and driving it forwards (which requires gasoline) are the exact same thing because both use the car.

It's not like Alvis would be nonexistent, though.

And neither is a battery.

That's not actually summoning, that's holding Wisps with him (which Shulk could just do if he grabbed Alvis, or if Alvis put himself inside the sword). The Wisps could detach themselves from Sonic and rapidly attack Sonic's opponent, that's quite major.

The Wisps can be stored in Sonic's inventory, and don't physically appear until he uses, or summons, them. The Wisps haven't ever attacked without combining with Sonic (I'd imagine they would attack Robotnik's Badniks that were enslaving their entire race if they could). When has Alvis been shown to enter the Monado?

Alright then. @ Dastardly Ridleylash @Dryn @ BaganSmashBros @ Nerdicon
Should Shulk be able to use the power that Alvis provides?

It's already 2-2, with Godwin and I being for, and Muno and Shadow being against.

Mewtwo could still use Teleport to dodge Ultra Flame (something that is also limited). The other fire attacks would be smaller and easier to dodge by Mewtwo floating.

After Mewtwo first used Teleport, he could use the Fire Flower to bait out all of his Teleports, and then use Ultra Flame when Mewtwo runs out of Teleports.

On an unrelated note, does everyone agree with these being the types everyone would have from Pokemon? We could use these for type advantages/disadvantages and see if a Pokemon attack would be super effective against someone.
Fighting/Fire (second type can be changed with power-ups)
Fighting/Electric (second type can be changed with power-ups)
Fairy/Flying
Fire/Dark
Normal
Flying
Fire
Normal
Normal
Fighting/Ground
Normal
Normal
Fairy/Psychic
Fighting/Dark
Dark
Normal
Steel
Fighting
Flying
Fairy
Ice
Steel
Steel/Fighting
Steel/Electric
Flying
Normal
Flying/Dark
Fighting
Steel/Ground
Steel/Air
Steel/Dark
Electric
Electric
Fire/Flying
Fighting/Steel
Normal/Fairy
Water/Dark
Psychic
Grass
Water
Normal
Fire/Flying
Steel
Psychic
Psychic
Fire/Steel
Normal
Grass/Ground
Fighting
Normal
Flying/Dark
Steel
Steel/Fire
Fighting
Normal
Steel
Air
Steel/Fighting
Fighting
Electric
Steel

I see no issues here.

 

[Warlock*G]

Shantae is the strongest character in Smash -- it's only a matter of time before she gets added.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

By that logic, turning on a car's radio (which requires electricity) and driving it forwards (which requires gasoline) are the exact same thing because both use the car.

Yet, electricity and gasoline are not the same power source. Alvis is one power source for all of the Monado's powers.

And neither is a battery.

I don't really see the point of this discussion. Being a battery wouldn't make you disallowed.

The Wisps can be stored in Sonic's inventory, and don't physically appear until he uses, or summons, them. The Wisps haven't ever attacked without combining with Sonic (I'd imagine they would attack Robotnik's Badniks that were enslaving their entire race if they could). When has Alvis been shown to enter the Monado?

He can do pretty much anything through ether (everything) manipulation.

After Mewtwo first used Teleport, he could use the Fire Flower to bait out all of his Teleports, and then use Ultra Flame when Mewtwo runs out of Teleports.

Fire Flower wouldn't even bait out the Teleports, because Mewtwo floats over the fireballs.

 

[Nerdicon]

Air

?
Last I checked there was no air type.

Alright then. @ Dastardly Ridleylash @Dryn @ BaganSmashBros @ Nerdicon
Should Shulk be able to use the power that Alvis provides?

It's already 2-2, with Godwin and I being for, and Muno and Shadow being against.

I'm all for it, just keep in mind that most characters here are not made of ether and most likely won't be effected by Shulk's ether abilities (he could use the concrete from the arena to do some devastating stuff though).

More info on Kirby though

Beam (as evidenced by Squeak Squad) is actually a weak electrical energy, weak at least compared to Spark.
The sparks that flow on the surface of metal in these games do so highly illogically so I can't really find out how strong it is.
I can however tell how strong Spark is as it seems to act and look similar to lightning which can reach upwards of 30,000 degrees K (53,540 degrees F). Yeah, ouch. Beam does similar damage to Spark, but Spark has a higher DPS further demonstrating that it is the more dangerous from of energy. While Beam doesn't quite pack the punch that Spark does, Flare Beam more than makes up for that. Flare Beam causes time to stop for a brief moment after using it so if the opponent is close the attack is sure to hit. And a hit it will be, even at slightly lower than 50,000 degrees that's still hotter than lava.
Spark now gets the short end of the stick as its projectiles are described as plasma, not electricity. While there is no green plasma, the plasma shots that Kirby produces are tinged yellow in some games. Yellow stars are around 6000-8000 K (10,340-13,940 degrees F). These two abilities are much more dangerous than I initially gave them credit for, quite a few characters have odd interactions with high-voltage, specifically Mario who gets stunned for quite a long time making him vulnerable to getting OHKO-ed by a long lasting electrical charge.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

?
Last I checked there was no air type.

Wind-type, I mean.

I'm all for it, just keep in mind that most characters here are not made of ether and most likely won't be effected by Shulk's ether abilities (he could use the concrete from the arena to do some devastating stuff though).

Since he and the Monado are both made of ether, he could also probably alter himself so he could control everything.

 

[Munomario777]

Yet, electricity and gasoline are not the same power source. Alvis is one power source for all of the Monado's powers.

As proven by?

I don't really see the point of this discussion. Being a battery wouldn't make you disallowed.

Alvis is alive. Batteries are not.

He can do pretty much anything through ether (everything) manipulation.

As proven by?

Fire Flower wouldn't even bait out the Teleports, because Mewtwo floats over the fireballs.

Okay, then. Mario could just keep using Syrups to restore the energy needed to use Ultra Flame.

I'm all for it, just keep in mind that most characters here are not made of ether and most likely won't be effected by Shulk's ether abilities (he could use the concrete from the arena to do some devastating stuff though).

Very true.

Since he and the Monado are both made of ether, he could also probably alter himself so he could control everything.

When has Shulk done this?

 

[Nerdicon]

Wind-type, I mean.

There's no wind type either

Since he and the Monado are both made of ether, he could also probably alter himself so he could control everything.

If he altered the Monado (and I'm not saying he could) he would change Alvis and therefore no longer have his ether manipulating abilities.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

As proven by?

Alvis informing Shulk that he is Monado.

Alvis is alive. Batteries are not.

Still doesn't mean disallowed.

As proven by?

The Monado's ability to control ether.

I think we should just let the votes do all the talking.

Okay, then. Mario could just keep using Syrups to restore the energy needed to use Ultra Flame.

Why would Mario even spam Ultra Flame if Mewtwo keeps teleporting away though? Don't think he'd be that desperate.

When has Shulk done this?

The Monado has the ability to control ether.

If he altered the Monado (and I'm not saying he could) he would change Alvis and therefore no longer have his ether manipulating abilities.

He could just control himself then.

 

[Munomario777]

Alvis informing Shulk that he is Monado.

And how does that mean that he is the power source of Shulk's sword?

Still doesn't mean disallowed.

Shulk cannot summon Alvis.

The Monado's ability to control ether.

Mario can manipulate fire, yet he cannot set the entire planet on fire. Just because the Monado can control Ether doesn't mean that he can do anything he wants; that's extrapolation.

I think we should just let the votes do all the talking.

M'kay.

Why would Mario even spam Ultra Flame if Mewtwo keeps teleporting away though? Don't think he'd be that desperate.

Because it's a powerful attack?

The Monado has the ability to control ether.

See above.

He could just control himself then.

When has Shulk changed his own properties?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Because it's a powerful attack?

Yeah, one that keeps failing due to Mewtwo's teleportation and levitation. This is basically like Link, Mario's not going to spam the same attack over and over if it never works.

When has Shulk changed his own properties?

He can change ether, which is something he is made of. Here are a few quotes from Xenoblade Wiki.
The Monado is a powerful energy blade that can manipulate the ether around it, and with it, change the material and immaterial shape of the world. The use of the Monado depends on the will of its user; most Homs who try to use the sword cannot control it. At the beginning of the game, the Monado cannot harm any Homs from Bionis.

Ether is the building block of all life in the universe of Xenoblade Chronicles. Ether is needed for everything to survive on Bionis, from Zanza to Homs. It is said many times that Ether is the base unit of life and that without it, living beings die.

Since ether makes up life, and Shulk is life, and the Monado can manipulate ether, Shulk can manipulate himself.

 

[Crystanium]

Modding is irrelevant, because it puts the game in situations that were unintended by the developers. NPCs are not in a position in the game to be able to fall into lava, so they wouldn't be programmed to interact with lava because of game mechanics. It's very possible for a fairy to come in contact with the lava, though, so the developers not intending it cannot be the answer. If modding is relevant, then we might as well allow glitches. Out of curiosity, how did you come to your conclusion on the Power Bomb's heat energy? I can't find the post. :/

Well, considering NPCs don't receive damage from any of Link's weapons (though Cuccos do), it's likely they wouldn't receive damage if placed on lava.

I assumed the power bomb was a thermobaric weapon because it produces a high heat wave capable of melting metals with high melting points. Considering the power bomb can be used under water may tell us it's not a thermobaric weapon, however, meaning that we would otherwise have a temperature from a nuclear explosion ranging anywhere from 6,000 to 10,000,000 K (5,726.85 to 9,999,730°C).

But isn't that exactly what it is? Blastoise's Hyrdo Pump uses a lot of water, so obviously it wouldn't be able to use that as often as water gun, something that requires less water.

To a degree, that is exactly what it is. The problem is using numbers like, "Mewtwo can only teleport ten times, since he only has 10 PP for that." I'm just not sure how 10 PP is supposed to translate into the real world.

I get where you're coming from, but it's possible that these attacks are operating on a different physics system, especially in game like Mario with so much weirdness. Realistically, Mario would have to be running fast to dodge/outrun these cannonballs, but then again if we were being real, how would just getting a raccoon tail and ears suddenly make him capable of flight, especially given his weight. I think (and probably people who voted For this think) it's more likely they simply disregard physics rather than couldn't program it. I think Pokemon is actually a good example. There are many attacks that supposedly involve soundwaves but can be clearly be seen coming and dodged. If Pokemon can dodge these, they should never get hit by slower attacks yet they do. These attacks probably have similarity to sound (in how they cause damage) but don't actually move at the speed of sound. Same with Beepbooxers.

If we're going to debate about this or that operating on a different physics system, then there's no point in debating. We could never find out how the physics behave because even from game to game, the physics are different. Mario falls faster than a cannonball being fired downward.

So are you claiming the speed of the missiles is exaggerated since (to my knowledge) missiles have never been stated to go at supersonic speeds?

No; I'm demonstrating that if Samus can run supersonic, and if her missiles travel faster than her, then her missiles travel faster than the speed of sound as well.

Him not being able to use Mega stones would be the equivalent of letting his Dragonite (if he had one) use Dragon Claw on Jigglypuff just because Fairy types weren't invented yet. Mega Stones are something that were retconned into existence, and like I mentioned there was the anime special Pokemon Origins which took place in Kanto starring Red, and it had Mega Stones.

Makes sense.

Beam (as evidenced by Squeak Squad) is actually a weak electrical energy, weak at least compared to Spark.
The sparks that flow on the surface of metal in these games do so highly illogically so I can't really find out how strong it is.
I can however tell how strong Spark is as it seems to act and look similar to lightning which can reach upwards of 30,000 degrees K (53,540 degrees F). Yeah, ouch. Beam does similar damage to Spark, but Spark has a higher DPS further demonstrating that it is the more dangerous from of energy. While Beam doesn't quite pack the punch that Spark does, Flare Beam more than makes up for that. Flare Beam causes time to stop for a brief moment after using it so if the opponent is close the attack is sure to hit. And a hit it will be, even at slightly lower than 50,000 degrees that's still hotter than lava.
Spark now gets the short end of the stick as its projectiles are described as plasma, not electricity. While there is no green plasma, the plasma shots that Kirby produces are tinged yellow in some games. Yellow stars are around 6000-8000 K (10,340-13,940 degrees F). These two abilities are much more dangerous than I initially gave them credit for, quite a few characters have odd interactions with high-voltage, specifically Mario who gets stunned for quite a long time making him vulnerable to getting OHKO-ed by a long lasting electrical charge.

Kirby's spark ability looks similar to Samus' plasma beam, especially with both using plasma and electricity.

Mario would be able to withstand electrical attacks either using a volt shroom, the zap tap badge, or super suit, which prevents elemental attacks. I don't think Kirby's spark attack is that, hot, though. Even at such temperatures, the electricity wouldn't cause one's clothes to combust.

 

[Nerdicon]

Mario would be able to withstand electrical attacks either using a volt shroom, the zap tap badge, or super suit, which prevents elemental attacks.

Fair point

I don't think Kirby's spark attack is that, hot, though. Even at such temperatures, the electricity wouldn't cause one's clothes to combust.

Proof?
The attacks are at the very least electricity (some flavor text refers to this and it's also supported by the electrical charges generated by the spark) and seem to simulate lightning on several occasions. Not to mention that plenty of other Kirby abilities make varying logical sense. Fire can melt certain metal blocks but can't melt other metal architecture, Tornado can go over small flames without being smothered by the vacuum of the tornado, Fire is self sustained in the vacuum of space, the ice ability in general, the list goes on. It makes more sense in the illogical world to understand where the line must be drawn between what we could assume in reality and what we can assume in a game.
There are examples in other games, Din's Fire not burning anything besides torches, if Sonic moving at lightspeed (therefore using an infinite amount of energy) can crash into a wall without causing damage to himself or the environment but can be damaged by a badnik moving at half a mile per hour.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

In the same way wearing a ring to enhance his sword damage works. Skin cannot withstand high temperatures. At least at or above 48°C is when skin will be damaged. 60°C can cause second- and third-degree burns. If the defense applied to Link's skin, then Link would be able to withstand 90°C, assuming we should treat it that way. So if Link had up to 500% damage reduction, then he'd only be able to withstand up to 300°C before experiencing second- to third-degree burns, which is well below the temperature produced by the plasma beams in the Metroid Prime trilogy and the power bomb.

Why use Celsius over Fahrenheit or Kelvin in your calculations?

He's so low because of his lack of projectiles. I feel like any character with a strong projectile game would be able to defeat Shulk. Take Bowser Jr for example, exactly how does Shulk beat him when he just hovers in the air and peppers him with bombs and fire balls, with the occasional snarl to freeze (not ice wise) him if gets close?

1. What game can he get 10k rings?
2. Any projectile bypasses it. Is that what you mean?

I agree with your later point that the Monado should be able to hurt Sonic. But my point is, can Shulk hit Sonic or Super Sonic 4 times in a 14.5 second span considering how fast he can run (fly for SS)?

I think not protecting against crushing is game mechanic, and Starman would not OHKO Palutena. It only OHKO's common enemies because they die upon being damaged once.

Shulk bested Jade Face twice, who happens to be the closest thing to a crackshot that the world of Xenoblade has. I do admit he was able to use cover the 1st time but he did deflect one of his projectiles the second time ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Q...ist=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=1042 at 17:22-17:28). He also managed to block a bullet meant for Reyn so he is hardly helpless against projectile spammers ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4b...list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=725 ). Shulk has Monado Purge which has a range of 20M(according to the wiki, though I don’t know what M equals), and he only has to use Battle Soul twice to refill his talent gauge to use it again. Assuming the daytime cooldown skill is in effect, he can use it once every 79 seconds. He can also evade rapid fire attacks and jump pretty high ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=535 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...eature=player_detailpage&v=rfUs8P8PcHw#t=1200). The further away Bowser Jr. is the less likely his attacks are going to connect, and the Mario Bros don’t exactly have very good projectile games either. Can we get some videos of his capabilities(cutscene and gameplay)?
Oh I just remembered this scene ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...v=H-5rhe7ekhA&feature=player_detailpage#t=920 )! Shulk could just have the Monado morph into a more useful form like an anti-air gun or Missile Launcher (Example of the Monado morphing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...XRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&v=OUNiW6HaqhE#t=1433 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...XRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&v=OUNiW6HaqhE#t=1833 )! The only thing holding him back is he only has experience with swords.

By the way does Bowser Jr. have his magical paintbrush?

1. I just rounded up because it looks neater.
2. Yes. Can AOE attacks be used to target the ground around him as a loophole(splash damage)?

If we can get Bind or Purge (even Slow can be crippling if we use gameplay Sonic) to proc hitting Sonic would be laughably easy!

We still have to determine the offensive potency of ramming into someone while invincible. Wouldn’t invincibility hit many times when running into someone?

Mario's speedNot only do we consistently see Mario able to dodge cannonballs, but we consistently see in these games his ability to outrun them. I would suspect Mario to at least be able to run the speed of sound. If we used the other speed, Mario's reaction time would be 3.47 milliseconds.

Your analysis falls apart when Bullet Bills and Cannonballs don‘t have a drop with gravity(at least in the 2d games). If cannonballs aren’t effected by gravity then they don‘t have to have high muzzle velocity to hit distant targets. If the game was accounting for Mario running at Supersonic speeds wouldn’t gravity have a far more pronounced effect on him?

Either Link has some really durable pockets or he uses hammerspace (most likely the latter, because I don't think he could fit the giant Skull Hammer in his pocket).

I say we accept the fact that Link stores his inventory in hammerspace (he’s a Time Lord) because he never slows down when he gets new equipment like the iron boots. It is possible to steal from there like when Skull Kid does in Majora’s Mask and I believe another instance happened oracle of Ages.

Spoiler: Big image

View attachment 46566

Notice the Ring count that goes into six digits, in the upper right.

We already know about the 6 digit rings in Chao garden, I want to see his most impressive ring count against the most potent bosses.

Sonic's high acceleration would make this a non-issue.

Sonic won’t be doing any accelerating while under Bind or Purge’s effect.

This might work against other opponents, but perhaps not against Sonic. It assumes that Shulk would actually be able to hit Sonic in the first place, which I seriously doubt because A) Super Sonic and B) his reaction time.

If Sonic can’t move he can’t dodge, simple as that.

Sonic isn't really disoriented after one of his attacks is blocked, so the first point is void. Aside from Super Sonic, the Spike gem wouldn't be a big deal, since Sonic always lands on his feet (even when knocked back by an attack). The final point, again, assumes that Shulk would be able to hit Sonic in the first place.

The Arachno Queen rebounds off Monado Shield( https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&v=imKVglbON1w#t=222 ). Are you saying Sonic won’t suffer a similar issue like that when he barrels full force into Shield? Shulk can hit him after Sonic takes spike damage but before his feet touch the ground (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=N6tSowlt7E4#t=237). Can Sonic consistently evade Ether, Special or Magical attacks?

So, are you for or against no teleporting out of the arena?

I’m against teleporting cheap victories and besides Mewtwo will beat most of the cast without it anyway.

Remember, Super Sonic drains one Ring per second. If I was in that situation, I'd probably bring the minimum amount of my money that I needed (fifty Rings) if I was going to lose a dollar every second.

Hey you either lose money or you lose your life.

I don't see anything about sealing movement, but I might be missing something. Either way, I've already addressed this above.

First video: Alvis says “stop it in its tracks” at 27:57-27:58, and he completely stops the Telethia from 28:12 to 28:26 which is about how long Monado Purge lasts in gameplay(14.5 seconds). Second video: Shulk uses a Purge variant to pin the Telethia from 16:10-16:32 so his allies can land some physical type blows on it. Without Purge sealing the Telethia’s Soul Read ( http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Soul_Read ) aura they wouldn’t even be able to hit it at all.

http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Cooldown

http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Talent_Gauge

When is it said that the Monado is more powerful than the Chaos Emeralds (described as having "ultimate power") and the Master Emerald (which has infinite power)? The Master Emerald being able to negate the Chaos Emeralds comes from the gods designing it for that purpose anyways. I've addressed the Knuckles situation in the past, but I'll reiterate. Super Sonic ends when Sonic runs out of Rings, correct? Well, Sonic starts out Angel Island Act 1 (right after the scene in question) with zero Rings. This is likely the reason that Sonic exited his Super Form, rather than Knuckles punching it out of him.

The Monado has the Power to control the very fabric of the world ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...=x5b3h5Ib4Lo&feature=player_detailpage#t=1171 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...v=H-5rhe7ekhA&feature=player_detailpage#t=904 ). Creating living beings blows the Chaos and Master Emeralds out of the water ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...ist=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=1594 )
Yeah right, Sonic conveniently ran out of rings at the exact moment Knuckles ambushed him. Technically that would have killed him and how come nobody brings up the fact Knuckles grabbed the Emeralds off the ground without Sonic doing a thing?

If Sonic gets hit by a Badnik in gameplay, that's the player's fault. It's very possible to play through an entire Sonic game without getting hit by a single enemy attack. In addition, many cutscenes, etc. show his reaction time, reflexes, speed, agility, etc.; take Sonic Unleashed's opening cutscene, for instance:

Except that one time Knuckles ambushed him.

That’s metroid not sonic and I don’t want to get involved in that battle.
Edit: The website screwed up, now it's showing your video.

• Robotnik has a cool fleet.
  
• So Sonic can cut through Robotnik's robots like Dunban through Mechon.
• Why do explosions in Sonic's world have such low AOEs (Sonic would have been wiped out if they were better)?
  
• Sonic seems noticeably faster than he was in the 16 bit days.
• As fast as Sonic is he still got grabbed by Robotnik and it took a few seconds for him to go Super Sonic.
• Sonic being easily tricked by Robotnik is not a good thing.
• Sonic can't outrun the effects of Vacuum.
  
• Gaia doesn't look so tough as it didn't even even destroy the planet!

Can the Monado be blocked by shields and such? Just because it can slay gods doesn't mean it's extremely powerful. Take, for instance, the Master Sword. It can kill Ganon, who has power comparable to that of a god thanks to the Triforce of Power. However, it cannot slice through plate armor, shields, etc.

damage to shield wielders from the front ( Example of a Shield wielding Mechon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...feature=player_detailpage&v=OZQuNGvILyk#t=103 ). The Master sword isn’t particularly good against plate mail ( which is quite realistic, you should use a war hammer for better results ) and isn’t Ganondorf weak to it because it was forged to banish evil ( of which plate mail is not )?

Mario can shoot fireballs extremely quickly and in multiple directions, which would give Shulk a hard time here.

How Hard? Link please.

Can Shulk concentrate to use a Vision (which I haven't found a source for, by the way; could you provide one please?) while he's under attack? Also, the Starman would negate the damage from Spike, and Kuribo's Shoe might also work.

Evidence of concentration visions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo7...6P040gwIwlhqcP&feature=player_detailpage#t=75 from 1:15 to 1:50. The last time he had a vision was after he beat Metal Face for the last time at Sword Valley and that is likely due to the Apocrypha being in effect. True against the Starman and kuribo’s shoe would likely negate spike damage as (there are a few pieces of foot armor with that function in Xenoblade (chronos set I believe)).

Once Mario sees Shulk go from in front of him to his side/back, he'll get out and counter attack.

Shulk has the upper hand because he will be behind him already.

Starman negates damage, so he doesn't lose the power-up.

You sure are using that one Starman a lot.

While Shulk's reaction time may be rather quick, Mega Mario's large size and improved speed would prevent him from physically moving out of the way.

Shulk’s visions plus reaction speed feats should ensure Mega Mario isn’t a problem.

Fireballs usually OHKO enemies, so no burn damage occurs. In Pokemon, fire attacks usually occur in a burn status effect, so Mewtwo gets burned here.

Boom-Boom require 5 hits according to the Mario wiki so burns don’t seem to factor in from Mario’s Fireball. Not all fire attacks leave burn damage (you can put your hand in contact with flame and still avoid catching fire) and why can’t people like Mewtwo and Link stop, drop and roll?

Oh yay, Shulk gets to use one attack. Assuming that he wasn't killed by said fatal attack, that is.

You do realize he sees the attack long before Mario actually uses it right?

How exactly does the Spike gem function? That's really the key to reaching a conclusion here.

The Spike gem functions much like a normal enemy counter spike ( http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Spike) and has similarities to the Counter( except it does fixed damage rather than inflicting damage equal to the damage suffered by the user ) skill from the Fire Emblem series.

Not so much tackling, as using all of his other power-ups while invincible, and thus preventing Shulk from using a counter attack.

Shulk moves pretty fast with that Quick Step gem so he should easily be able to evade Mario’s attacks until Mario runs out of his invincibility items.

Here

's an example of Mario's speed with a Starman.

Mario has to be faster than that to catch Shulk if he has a head start.
Can one of the brainiacs here ( @Dryn? ) get us an estimate on Mario and Shulk’s running speeds?

Seeing as how Shulk isn't a crushing wall, a black hole, or a bottomless pit, I don't see how this is relevant to this discussion.

That is proof that Mario is merely nigh-invulnerable.

I said that before I got to the invincibility granted by the Starman.

Ok.

The Mega Mushroom would allow Mario to squash Shulk like a bug.

Mario is too slow. Video of Mega Mario in action please?

Let's see. I've played the Genesis games (1-3, CD, and Knuckles), I've played Sonic Adventure and SA2, I've played Colors, Generations, and Lost World to completion, Colors DS, Generations 3DS, Rush/Rush Adventure, and a few spinoffs here and there. As for Mario, I've played samples of the NES games (thanks to NES Remix), I've played 64 DS, all of the NSMB games, both Galaxy games, 3D Land, 3D World, and quite a few spinoffs.

You are clearly my better when it comes to Mario and Sonic so it should be easy for you to find their best feats on Youtube for me and the others.

I never said that a Starman could OHKO Palutena.

So how much KO potential does the Starman have by itself?

Objects in-game travel at their apparent speed unless otherwise specified.

Agreed.

@ Munomario777 , @ Kirby Dragons , @ BaganSmashBros , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 Should Marth and Ike get access to skills from awakening since they didn't appear but ghost verions of them did? (The spirits of heros given flesh form)

Technically their not ghosts as evidenced by the fact that there is a Tiki Einherjar and that Tiki is still alive in awakening. As these are merely copies of the originals I would have to vote no on Awakening skills for Ike and Marth.

When Mewtwo is hit with a fire attack, it gets the burning effect.
Fireballs are a fire attack. Therefore, when Mewtwo is hit with fireballs, it gets the burning effect.

Mario’s fireballs don’t inflict burns, as attested to by SMB3 Boom-Boom.

Shulk did not singlehandedly reset the universe. He told Alvis to reset it (as evidenced by the fact that Shulk had to ask him for his decision for it to take effect, among other things that I've discussed in the past). If Alvis is the power source, then without him, Shulk cannot use his God powers. The difference between this and, say, Link's Master Sword (and I'd assume Ragnell, but I'm not experienced with FE) is that with Shulk, Alvis is like a battery. Take the battery out of a flashlight, it stops working. Meanwhile, the Master Sword's blessing from the gods is like a coat of paint. If you paint a car, and you destroy the can of paint, the paint stays on. This is evidenced by the fact that the power still stays in the Master Sword, even when Link travels to other dimensions and such.

You do realize that Alvis asked Shulk about the future of the world ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...ist=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=1710 at 28:30-28:56 ). So if a character’s power comes from emeralds it’s ok but from another person it isn’t? Alvis can only recommend a course of action but can‘t execute any actions until he gets the go ahead from a Monado wielder.
You really should stop trying to nerf people severely!

BTW, do you think Pokemon attacks would pierce a Landmaster or Arwing? I lean towards yes, but even then I'm not sure the 'mons could physically catch up with them. The Arwings specifically should be able to fly too fast to be hit by the 'mons, although I think Charizard could play defensive and possibly win.

Pokemon attacks should be able to wear down their shields given sufficient time, and surely some Pokemon are capable of punching through it’s armor. Do we know the top speeds of the Arwing and Landmaster? Can the Landmaster cannon depress enough to hit the shorter combatants? Can the Landmaster crush combatants with a barrel roll ( how about “invincible characters” )

If we're choosing who's the strongest character in Smash, than where should we have the cutoff? Do we cut it off at "characters that appear in matches", which would mean we'd probably have to have Ridley in the tournament, as well, or do we stick to just the playable fighters? If we do have Ridley included, then that complicates things further.

We haven’t even got a good rule set going yet so non-playable characters will have to wait. I’d love to throw Metal Face in but that would result in a vicious debate about how strong his Face Mechon armor is ( there wouldn‘t be any Sonic games if Dr. Robotnik could make robots out of that material ).

Another thing about Pokemon; do we use the Pokedex as reference or not? Because, if we use the Pokedex as reference, than Charizard should dominate the entire tournament, since it's fire is able to melt glaciers weighing up to 10,000 tonnes quickly (which would, according to scientific calculations, make it hotter than the Sun...). I think it's pretty obvious that Charizard would dominate any fight it was in simply by using Flamethrower.

No Pokedex, we already have enough problems here.

Shulk has not used his god powers without Alvis nearby. Since Alvis is powering these god powers, we cannot assume that he could do so from a distance (as in, not in the arena) unless he has been shown doing so in the game.

Shulk reactivated the Monado on the Fallen Arm while Alvis was organizing the allied force back at Alcamoth at the back of the Bionis’s head. You literally couldn‘t have them any further apart vertically and they are at nearly completely opposite sides of the world at that point! Meyneth uses her Monado quite a few times and she doesn’t even recognize Alvis. Where are you getting the idea that Alvis needs to be nearby for the

So Mario shoots ten fireballs at Mewtwo.

That’s not how probability works, besides Mewtwo would only have a 65% chance of suffering the blaze status effect over 10 fireballs (90^10).

Actually, the Chao Garden is integrated into the main game in multiple ways. Aside from Rings carrying over to the Chao Garden, there are also Chaos Drives and Animals found in enemies and such. These are used in the Chao Garden, and you can give them to your Chao to teach them new abilities or increase their stats. Even the way you access the Chao Garden is integrated into the main game. In each level, there is a "Chao Key", which is found hidden in a box somewhere in the stage. If the character collects it and then finishes the stage, they will be brought to the Chao Garden after reaching the Goal Ring. Heck, there's even highway signs that say "Chao Garden" on them in games like Sonic Unleashed! Finally, the Chao Garden is on the same world map as every other stage in the game, and even has its own island shaped like a Chao head.

Too bad the Chao Garden rewards seem to flow only one way.

Fire/Flying

How is Duck Hunt a fire type?

Since he and the Monado are both made of ether, he could also probably alter himself so he could control everything.

onis: I‘m really feeling it (in a Titanicly deep voice) ! The first thing that Zanza and Meyneth did was become the Bionis and Mechonis respectively.

Okay, then. Mario could just keep using Syrups to restore the energy needed to use Ultra Flame.

How many syrups does he get?

If he altered the Monado (and I'm not saying he could) he would change Alvis and therefore no longer have his ether manipulating abilities.

The Monados can take on any shape the bearer wishes and change multiple times over the course of the game ( Monado 1 morphs into Monado 2 being the 1st example) and leave Alvis no worse for wear.

To the people arguing about Lava in Zelda games Link would die if he didn’t teleport to the entrance of the room because those lava pits can’t be climbed out of! Not to be confused with the lava that you can walk on and get out of.

When comparing character feats remember that not all enemies are created equal! For example the Koopa Troop would lose to the armies of Fire Emblem who would lose to the Mechon who would in turn lose to the Space Pirates.

Where did all the Ridleys come from?

I wish to post a master rule above all others: No rule shall totally wreck any combatants capabilities! What do you think "ShadowLBlue?

 

[Nerdicon]

The Monados can take on any shape the bearer wishes and change multiple times over the course of the game ( Monado 1 morphs into Monado 2 being the 1st example) and leave Alvis no worse for wear.

I was saying if he converted the Monado into say, fire to harm the opponents or something. Also, absolutely destroys and by converting their weapons into ether. That being said though plenty of characters can still beat him (Kirby and Sonic come to mind)

-Uses an invincibility candy, hops on the warp star with a thunder sword (which is literally just the sword ability with all the advantages of Spark) and slices Shulk to bits (he'd get a vision but he isn't really fast enough to react or use Monado Shield)

-Freezes time and then OHKOs Shulk with an infinite force punch (can't do anything if you're immobilized). This is the case as long as Sonic doesn't crack any cheesy one-liners.

- Looks at him.

To be fair those are the only two examples that I can think of where Shulk definitely loses, a few need closer examination () but most others can be summed up quickly

-Has the Falchion and any of his other weapons converted into ether thus making him completely and utterly helpless

- Has all of his fire attacks, ice attacks, physical projectiles, and hammer converted into ether. Probably gets crushed by Shulk's creations.

- Has her black holes converted into ether (a massive amount!) and proceeds to get crushed

- Just gets outplayed in the swordplay department and magic (combated by ether)

- See above

-See above again

-Has most of his arsenal converted into ether, gets killed when Shulk turns the arena into ether then turns it back into spikes