Who plays the Marth / Metaknight matchup the best? MikeHaze or Mr. R?

[LanceStern]

It was a topic I was going to bring up a little while ago concerning player CONFIDENCE. I feel there's a difference between knowing a matchup and being confident in a matchup.

Knowing the matchup - You know the chain grab percentages, the frame traps, general ideas of how to set up and do damage to the opponent. You have a solid idea of the matchup ratio and know how to win

Confident in the matchup - Taking "knowing the matchup" to another level, not only do you have a solid idea of frame traps, setups and punishes, but you actively know how to make the opponent uncomfortable. It doesn't matter if it's an unfavorable matchup or not, you know how to zone the opponent out, predict and bait scenarios to punish and finish the match. A common characteristic in "matchup confidence" is you'll often see the confident player do things that just don't seem to make sense, but they get away with it anyways. You may not WIN the match, but you're confident.

With all that said, there's nothing that's more striking (entertaining) to watch as either Mike Haze or Mr. R play the Marth vs. Metaknight matchup. Here are some of the best ones:


MikeHaze vs Rain (Genesis 2)
Mr. R vs Kakera (Apex)
Mr. R vs Otori
MikeHaze vs FOW

Who do you think is more confident in the matchup or plays it better? They both play it ridiculously confident, it's scary.

 

[Flayl]

Well apparently Mr. R lost to FOW and MikeHaze outplaced FOW which might mean he beat him but I'm going to need confirmation, they may have never even played.

That being said, why is this here and not the Marth boards?

edit: Okay from what I can tell from Shaya's thread Mike never played FOW (in bracket anyway)

 

[deepseadiva]

omfg the **** Mike pulls out in game two against fow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IEKSifu7Xc&feature=player_detailpage#t=205s

 

[infiniteV115]

Well apparently Mr. R lost to FOW and MikeHaze outplaced FOW which might mean he beat him but I'm going to need confirmation, they may have never even played.

That being said, why is this here and not the Marth boards?

edit: Okay from what I can tell from Shaya's thread Mike never played FOW (in bracket anyway)

Mike has played and lost to FOW's MK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiF4RQ6VUWo&feature=relmfu

 

[Cassio]

iirc I think theyre both 2-2 vs Fow since Apex. Its a MU Fow knows really well out of necessity. I honestly dont think its accurate to say one is better than the other, but thats the most I feel comfortable saying on the subject.

 

[Flayl]

Mike has played and lost to FOW's MK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiF4RQ6VUWo&feature=relmfu

I was obviously talking about the more recent E4 tournament, the same one Mr. R attended.

 

[Shaya]

Hey guys.

Mr-R and Mike have different styles of Marth. Against various people (of various characters), one player would probably do better than the other. For the most part though, Mike is pretty consistent against just about every MK he plays. But I have a feeling Ramin might do better against the MKs that know Mike well (i.e. tyrant).

So in a nut shell, Mike is better in the MK match up, but Ramin's different style / tighter execution could pull off an upset against the MK that consistently beats the otherwise best Marth main in the match up. Tyrant's MK buffers punishes really really amazingly, and that gets Mike beaten up quite a lot, you see this difference when you watch Ramin play Tyrant (although only in friendlies)

 

[Ayce God]

I think ramin does better, Orion is a genius and he gives ramin great tips and training with mk. besides you never see ramin get bodied like you do mike haze. also I feel that bc ramin chooses the more unorthodox approach the mk doesn't know how to
react, I also feel like haze is just too slow sometimes..all that walking and waiting then still getting wrecked on approach...yea I think ramin does better, but im not sleeping on haze just yet

 

[Zankoku]

Discussing with FOW, you'll probably see more consistently solid play out of Mr. R, but mikeHAZE has times where he'll go on ridiculous streaks of amazing reads and just tear through the opponent once he gains momentum, playing even more strongly than Mr. R's best. Then again, mikeHAZE will also have periods of just not finding that first step and folding without as much of a fight as you might hope.

 

[SFA Smiley]

I think their playstyles are just different.

Mike is think overall is better because he makes harder reads. And in this game that gets you farther than platform cancel craziness and "gimmicky" setups (especially with marth)

But I feel that R is not far behind and he is really entertaining to watch.

 

[infiniteV115]

You make it sound like Mr.R doesn't make hard reads.
And that platform cancelling isn't a reliable mixup.

 

[SFA Smiley]

You make it sound like Mr.R doesn't make hard reads.
And that platform cancelling isn't a reliable mixup.

I said Mike makes harder reads. Like I said I think they're both good I think mike is a bit better though.

Edit: Or rather, I KNOW they're both good.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Meh... Ramin will outplace Mike at SKTAR, trust me on this one.

 

[Ayce God]

I think he will too, and mr r played m2k in a friendly...no. ramin is better in the match up. the way he handled mk at m2ks level is too good.

 

[Zankoku]

Mike isn't going to SKTAR.

 

[Mr-R]

I think he will too, and mr r played m2k in a friendly...no. ramin is better in the match up. the way he handled mk at m2ks level is too good.

Tbh we were both kinda messing around in that friendly ( going for grab release combos and spamming counter off stage ) and jason was actually going agro the entire time haha, a tourney match would probably be ALOT campier.

 

[C.J.]

Nope friendlies on a stream.

Super srs bsnss

 

[infiniteV115]

Friendlies on a stream at about 1 am when M2K hadn't played Brawl all weekend.
Super duper srs bsnss

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Friendlies on a stream at about 1 am when M2K hadn't played Brawl all weekend.
Super duper srs bsnss

No true, he was in doubles with Meek

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I think Mike is better at the MK match up. He has played and beaten way more top level MKs than Mr. R. Who are Mr. R's top level MK wins?

 

[Ayce God]

I only know of what's been said in the marth boards but fow, tyrant, kakera, otori, rain, kaos, Orion and staco.

that's all I can think of off the top of my head sure I missed a few also some of those wins are friendlys and some money matches.

I can't remember the last time haze beat a mk outside of cali

 

[-Jumpman-]

Kaos, Orion, and Staco don't beat Ramin. Tyrant won a MM 2-1 vs Ramin, last stock 150%+.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I don't think any European MKs can compare to our top 5 MKs. MMs and especially friendlies don't count as much as tournament wins.

 

[Ayce God]

jumpman, I'm saying ramin has beaten all those mks not he loss to them.

and jebus your crazy, staco beat ally in a mk ditto. there top mks are crazy good. it's just alot of them have retired.

..and since when did money matches not count as valid ??

 

[SaveMeJebus]

jumpman, I'm saying ramin has beaten all those mks not he loss to them.

and jebus your crazy, staco beat ally in a mk ditto. there top mks are crazy good. it's just alot of them have retired.

..and since when did money matches not count as valid ??

Was that tournament or mm? Also, mms never counted as much as tournament sets do

 

[Luigi player]

Tyrant won a MM 2-1 vs Ramin, last stock 150%+.

Meh.

Leon is the best.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Ramin is better against MK because I'm from Europe and I <3 him and I never met Mike in person.

 

[infiniteV115]

No true, he was in doubles with Meek

Oops. I meant with MK, forgot to mention that.

 

[Cassio]

lol, thatd explain most posts (on both ends). But nova 9 has some sort of weird agenda to put down Mikes skill and accomplishments vs MK.

 

[Ayce God]

Was that tournament or mm? Also, mms never counted as much as tournament sets do

I believe a mm. and I think over a certain dollar amount they count more since some ppl tend to "sandbag"
in tourney, but your not gonna sand bag when 10 20$ is on the line. mm and tourney sets are even in terms of determining some ones skill. eh.

lp, Leon is 6 - 0 against Ramins mk...
that's my homie and all but I think both haze and mr r are way better in the mu. I'll probably get proven wrong at sktar though. ehh.


im not putting anyone down, I'm just saying imo mr r does better against mks than mikehaze does. I'm a mikeHaze fan boy lol but from what I seen ramin does way better. I mean who has mike haze beaten recently that's a top mk main outside of Cali? I'll wait.

 

[Zankoku]

What tournaments has mikeHAZE been to recently that's outside of Cali?

 

[Cassio]

iirc The last two MKs Mikes played outside normal WC are Anti and Rain, exactly one year ago.

Europes MKs are great, but I wouldnt put them on the same level as SoCals, NY/NJs, and certainly not Japans.

 

[Ayce God]

no ones on Japan's level, but I think kaos and staco a we're compatible to ally and nairo. and I'd say Orion is probably compatible with zero
oh mr r beat zero too.

 

[Luigi player]

no ones on Japan's level, but I think kaos and staco a we're compatible to ally and nairo. and I'd say Orion is probably compatible with zero
oh mr r beat zero too.

All wrong.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Hahahahah, nova leave the theorizing to Europeans.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nova, literally everything you posted about Ramin, Leon and their records against MK is incorrect.

1.) Ramin never dropped a single match to Leon as MK. He's 6-0 up on Leon, not down.
2.) When did Staco win against Ally? The only noticeable win Staco has in the MK ditto is Orion.
3.) Staco has never been compareable to Nairo. Kaos in his prime MIGHT have been but I doubt that.
4.) When did Tyrant and Rain lose to Ramin? And Kaos still has a favorable record against Ramin, even though he was super-rusty during the last two sets they played. Ramin is also even with in sets with Fow last time I checked.

Get your facts straight, son.

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

I played nearly every good MK in Europe, and I am sure, that America has by far the better ones.

 

[Marcbri]

Staco is far from Ally's or Nairo's level, lol. No offense to him but they are on a different league.

Btw you shouldn't be making such statements without knowing for sure they are true

 

[Ayce God]

Europe, lol I said I only know what was put on marth boards I don't personally know ramin but for starters I didn't mean to put 6-0 I ****ing clearly meant 0-6 how can Leon be 6-0 against him in winner and grand finals and still lose the tournament?? it was a typo!!!!

ramin said in the marth boards or some where I forget, that ZERO WAS HARDER TO BEAT THAN RAIN WAS. doesn't take a ****ing genius to figure out "oh ramin beat rain" . shaya said on stream that ramin beat tyrant and that tyrant beat ramin idk if they where friendlys or what, one of u just said ramin lost a mm 2-1 I might be wrong but don't that one mean ramin won a game?! is that right? but I guess winning a game is not the same as beating some one huh?

I said they are compatible to them not better or as good as meaning I think kaos was super smart like ally and etc if they where as good ad them r and Leon wouldn't be beating them now would they??? and thats just MY OPINION just bc nova 9 says it doesnt mean its true AT ALL!!!! you guys are putting words in my mouth no where did I say there in the same league or on the same level, if you can't read English don't post in it.

someone wanted to know what mr r wins are against top mks I listed fow, now why the **** just bc there even in wins does that mean he's not a top mk win for r?? are u stupid?

and when ally went to Spain or where ever, him and staco played friendlys ally beat him a lot until he went mk and staco beat him in a ditto. stupid.

I mean your all European right? Ramin ill assume knows all of you? before coming here talking **** like everything I said is wrong why don't u confirm it with him first, bc I will never again waste this much of my time explaining myself to a group of Europes finest idiots. Jesus

 

[Cassio]

Holy ****

Anyways, I think when you toss out the caveats (and misinformation) on either end, Mike and Ramin are both exceptional but are not distinguishable in their record excellence. Not that people cant have knowledgeable opinions on who they believe is better, but I doubt stylistic preferences really matter at that point. If it was a difference in execution sure, but otherwise people are going to support who they want.