Who is the Best Marth right now?(Mew2King excluded)

[OverLord]

I agree with Beat.

And also, tech skills are not just perfect execution of inputs' successions. As Niko said, being able to get out of shield-pressure, or even shield-grab in the few frames possible it's tech skill.

Marth is surely not one of the hardest characters tech skill-wise, but I can just name a bunch of Marths that know how to do play him on a "good" tech-skill base.

The majority of Marth players don't even know how to angle their up-B. That's not being good in tech skills.

 

[Beat!]

Word. I cringe every time I see a Marth up-Bing straight up and getting edge hogged, when they COULD have made it back on-stage by angling it properly.

 

[Dart!]

M2K is a hero **** you dart!

loloololoollolooolo

 

[Archangel]

I am not saying Marth has no tech ability. As Niko said it takes some base techskill to fend off tech skill. I am simply saying the cap out for basic vs advanced is a little different.

Lets say the game was played without ATs. All AT's banned. The top characters that emerge are Puff, Sheik, Marth. Tech-heavy gameplay and the spacies emerge at the top because there techs give them a greater edge once mastered in execution and correct application.

Marth there is not much more. I mean even looking at the perfects for example.

TAS Marth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy8J6mUKzEs
TAS Fox: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSSMrjHGCIA

I am not saying Fox is better because of this I am just saying....The "Perfect Marth" looks very ordinary in comparison to what a perfect Fox does. That's not even touching other characters. "As humans we'll never be perfect but we can do a little better each day" ~ forget who said it but it applies in smash's scene now I think. Especially over the past 4-5 years players have been on a study march to perfection. As people get closer and closer the potential of characters like Yoshi, Peach, Ness, Mewtwo, Pika, Samus..etc. I think it will really really shock people if things continue as they are by the year 2015 the results for events could be....drastically different.

 

[Tee ay eye]

I am not saying Marth has no tech ability. As Niko said it takes some base techskill to fend off tech skill. I am simply saying the cap out for basic vs advanced is a little different.

Lets say the game was played without ATs. All AT's banned. The top characters that emerge are Puff, Sheik, Marth. Tech-heavy gameplay and the spacies emerge at the top because there techs give them a greater edge once mastered in execution and correct application.

Marth there is not much more. I mean even looking at the perfects for example.

TAS Marth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy8J6mUKzEs
TAS Fox: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSSMrjHGCIA

I am not saying Fox is better because of this I am just saying....The "Perfect Marth" looks very ordinary in comparison to what a perfect Fox does. That's not even touching other characters. "As humans we'll never be perfect but we can do a little better each day" ~ forget who said it but it applies in smash's scene now I think. Especially over the past 4-5 years players have been on a study march to perfection. As people get closer and closer the potential of characters like Yoshi, Peach, Ness, Mewtwo, Pika, Samus..etc. I think it will really really shock people if things continue as they are by the year 2015 the results for events could be....drastically different.

i'm sorry; that TAS marth video was an abysmal representation of marth's peak

 

[t-iceman]

LMAO that tas video wasn't tas, you could see clearly that the guy wasn't even wavedashing perfectly

 

[Archangel]

yeah the person's "perfect Marth" was new to TAS. Nobody else has done one aside from the team one though so...what else can I do.

My original point is simply that their overall skill caps out higher than Marth's. Doesn't mean Marth sucks in a perfect world more than 4 characters are better than him but he is still closer to the top. The thing about humans is there are inconsistencies.

In theory fox should be able to 4stock sheik without getting touched once. NOBODY can play that perfectly though. So there is a certain margin of error with these characters. and because of that...well we'll still have a chance even if Marth's ultimately cap out. Mastering the Basics and the available tech-skill is the best route. Then there is a matter of drawing out mistakes. The way I see it being more consistent then the guy next to you gives you an edge. If you can fend them off long enough to create a point of attack or draw out a mistake then your in good standing. Considering the gay counter picks are being removed then IMO it makes easier.

 

[Strong Badam]

idk why people even mention theory fox even to say that it's not practical & no one can do it
just seems pointless to me

 

[Archangel]

idk why people even mention theory fox even to say that it's not practical & no one can do it
just seems pointless to me

about as pointless as a post pointing out it's pointlessness I suppose.

 

[Metal Reeper]

I really don't understand why people even argue with Spam anymore.

 

[Archangel]

I really don't understand why people even argue with Spam anymore.

Who was arguing?

The only reason I mentioned perfection is...well perfection is the cap. As players inch closer toward that cap the differences in what a character can possibly do start to play more and more of a factor in the outcome.

 

[Beat!]

Perfection is in this case not the human cap, because it's not physically capable for a human to ever be able to do what a character like Fox is capable of. It's irrelevant to the discussion. "Perfect Fox" does in no way support the notion that Marth will eventually become inferior on a human level, because "Perfect Fox" will never happen on a human level.

 

[Archangel]

Perfection is in this case not the human cap, because it's not physically capable for a human to ever be able to do what a character like Fox is capable of. It's irrelevant to the discussion. "Perfect Fox" does in no way support the notion that Marth will eventually become inferior on a human level, because "Perfect Fox" will never happen on a human level.

No telling where the human cap is. I think it's possible to be at or near perfect with a character like Donkey Kong. can a perfect DK lose to a not perfect Falco? Yes he could. I don't want to get carried away with Perfect I am simply saying...some characters even currently sitting below mid tier if played on a perfect level would have an overall better chance in some MU's then marth. The question I guess I'm posing is at what point does that switch take place. We've seen it happen with Peach vs Marth. Marth dominates peach for about 6 or 7 years until a peach got close enough to the human cap.

I'm not saying ICE/Taj/M2K is the cap for humans....I'm saying that there is not much farther past that point within the human cap.

 

[Beat!]

Marth dominated Peach for 6 to 7 years, and nowadays it is, at least in my opinion, still an advantageous matchup, albeit not as **** as before. I can see why one could think otherwise, but at this moment, it's just an opinion either way.

And can you support statements such as

some characters even currently sitting below mid tier if played on a perfect level would have an overall better chance in some MU's then marth.

with, like, actual evidence/facts? Or is this just what you think will happen?

I'm not saying ICE/Taj/M2K is the cap for humans....I'm saying that there is not much farther past that point within the human cap.

Again, how do you know this? I'm not saying it's not plausible, but unless I've missed something, it's certainly not a necessity. I could definitely see Marth being pushed further.

Idk, maybe you're just stating your opinion, but I feel like you talk in absolutes a lot, especially when discussing Marth's viability.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

spam, it's not like 2 years ago you saw a future for a character like falco, without even knowing what the future was gonna look like. no1 knew about all the new technical abilities, or people wouldve been doing them all along.

and also spam you do talk in absolutes alot.

 

[danieljosebatista]

It seems to me that while the idea of "perfect Marth" or "perfect Fox" is interesting, there's something more to take from this aside from the fact that it will never happen lol. In this case, "perfect" just refers to the unlimited and flawless execution of technical ability in any given circumstance. This can be seen in lots of Fox TAS videos. Unfortunately, that isn't the same as being good at the game by any means. Tech skill is just an extension of natural ability and execution of strategy. Theoretically, "perfect Marth" beats ANY other "perfect" character because Marth simply outranges everyone. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think in the end we shouldn't assume that technical skill will be the defining factor in determining who the best players are/will be. While certainly it is a factor, ultimately reading your opponent and responding to their tactics properly, or approaching with good spacing that is difficult or impossible to punish is much more important than "tech skill." If we look at the best players, Armada, Mango, PP, it seems to me that what sets them apart is an unparalleled ability to read and adapt. A machine simply can't do that, no matter how fast it can execute commands. While it looks like those players have amazing technical ability beyond that of most other players, I personally doubt that is the case. They know how and when to use their technical skill best, and that just follows from their reading/adapting abilities. If there were a Marth main that was on the level of Mango, Armada, or PP as a player, he might just be the scariest player that ever lived. What do you guys think of this? Just my opinions really

 

[Beat!]

Theoretically, "perfect Marth" beats ANY other "perfect" character because Marth simply outranges everyone.

Don't want to nit pick from an otherwise pretty good post, but this is false. Fox, Falco and Bowser have been proven beyond doubt to be the three best characters in Super Theory Bros.

You also might want to split up your posts into smaller parts in the future. Chances are a lot of people won't read that entire post since it gets sort of tedious to read without breaks after a while.

I read it, though, and agree with the general gist of it.

 

[danieljosebatista]

Fair enough, thanks man. Wait bowser? Are you serious how does that work

 

[Beat!]

I can't really go into detail as it was tested by frame data experts with access to AR and stuff (I'm neither of those), but IIRC it has something to do with his ledge game being completely unpunishable if frame perfect. You'd have to ask someone else for specifics.

 

[OverLord]

I do think a Perfect Donkey Kong would win against everyone. He just needs to powershield everything and then grab.

No one can beat him.


D:

 

[phi1ny3]

M2K seems to be slipping in terms of Marth usage, I think he's more of a Sheik player nowadays, he even uses sheik over marth against a character that Marth probably has an easier time against (falco).

 

[Veetaak]

Strong Bad will come soon and complain about this perfect play discussion

 

[Beat!]

Except he already did.

 

[Archangel]

Marth dominated Peach for 6 to 7 years, and nowadays it is, at least in my opinion, still an advantageous matchup, albeit not as **** as before. I can see why one could think otherwise, but at this moment, it's just an opinion either way.

And can you support statements such as



with, like, actual evidence/facts? Or is this just what you think will happen?




Again, how do you know this? I'm not saying it's not plausible, but unless I've missed something, it's certainly not a necessity. I could definitely see Marth being pushed further.

Idk, maybe you're just stating your opinion, but I feel like you talk in absolutes a lot, especially when discussing Marth's viability.

spam, it's not like 2 years ago you saw a future for a character like falco, without even knowing what the future was gonna look like. no1 knew about all the new technical abilities, or people wouldve been doing them all along.

and also spam you do talk in absolutes alot.

I am not saying Marth has no tech ability. As Niko said it takes some base techskill to fend off tech skill. I am simply saying the cap out for basic vs advanced is a little different.

Lets say the game was played without ATs. All AT's banned. The top characters that emerge are Puff, Sheik, Marth. Tech-heavy gameplay and the spacies emerge at the top because there techs give them a greater edge once mastered in execution and correct application.

Marth there is not much more. I mean even looking at the perfects for example.

TAS Marth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy8J6mUKzEs
TAS Fox: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSSMrjHGCIA

I am not saying Fox is better because of this I am just saying....The "Perfect Marth" looks very ordinary in comparison to what a perfect Fox does. That's not even touching other characters. "As humans we'll never be perfect but we can do a little better each day" ~ forget who said it but it applies in smash's scene now I think. Especially over the past 4-5 years players have been on a study march to perfection. As people get closer and closer the potential of characters like Yoshi, Peach, Ness, Mewtwo, Pika, Samus..etc. I think it will really really shock people if things continue as they are by the year 2015 the results for events could be....drastically different.

not absolutes....I posted the TAS thing as part of...a side point you could say. Part of the reason why I hate talking to people online or via text is because of how easy it is to take something wrong or run with the wrong things. The TAS was for Visual Stimulation. That's all, I was not intending to have any farther discussion on Perfect this or that. Someone picked out the fact that the TAS Marth was a noob....ignoring everything else entirely..... smashboards.com....

 

[Max?]

LOL @ that Marth 'TAS'

 

[Beat!]

@Spam

I wasn't even referring to that post (which anyway had a few absolute statements in it as well. One single "could be" was hardly intended to cover all of them).

In the post I responded to you were talking about things like the "human cap" and how Ice, M2K and Taj are super close to Marth's maximum potential, and how Peach vs Marth apparently favours Peach nowadays. None of those things has any relation to TAS, so I don't really understand why you're trying to make it look like I took anything out of context...

 

[OverLord]

OMG that Marth TAS

 

[Beat!]

Dude it was super cool didn't you see how it punished all those missed techs omg dude I'm telling you

 

[Veetaak]

Except he already did.

haha, didn't know.. that means I was right, sort of...

 

[Archangel]

@Spam

I wasn't even referring to that post (which anyway had a few absolute statements in it as well. One single "could be" was hardly intended to cover all of them).

In the post I responded to you were talking about things like the "human cap" and how Ice, M2K and Taj are super close to Marth's maximum potential, and how Peach vs Marth apparently favours Peach nowadays. None of those things has any relation to TAS, so I don't really understand why you're trying to make it look like I took anything out of context...

at what point did I say "beat said this"?

Maybe I do speak in absolutes but....some things I think are evident I guess aren't. Others are just opinions of mine in which case I usually say I think or I feel or based on what I can see...something like that.

as for the Human cap for Marth. Aside from things like Spacing, Powershielding, Shield drop, shield dI, and AT's that every other character can do as well. What else is there to do with Marth himself?

 

[OverLord]

Shield-drop is ****.

 

[Mahie]

How do you use it man? It's still such an underground technique, there isn't much material to work with...

 

[Archangel]

you shield and then press -> or <-. Then you press down.

 

[Mew2King]

i think marth fox is even (unless fox runs away), falco and sheik **** marth, marth beats peach 55 (good until you have to kill... then they block anything you do and nair you), puff is pretty even, could be in marths favor but you literally have to play BORING AS HELL to do it otherwise you'll lose (i honestly don't think it's marth's favor only cuz, after like 40%, a bair hits marth off stage or to the ledge where he's in a super bad position, and if you get a back throw or edge hog, you can easily rest and KO marth. That's the only reasons why).

the problems with marth at high level is, many characters can just sit in shield and be safe from KOs leaving grab the only safe option, his moves won't combo into KOs, and marth gets comboed harder than almost every other top character (at least he gets comboed really hard to death by these 3 characters: falco, falcon, and sheik). This only applies to when they know how to combo marth though. That's one of the main reasons I think he's overrated. This is also the same reason I think puff is underrated. Jiggs can do everything safe knowing that, as long as she avoids a kill move (Blocks it -> rest can counterattack many kill move attempts on her), she won't get comboed by things except at low %s, and she also does not have to worry about being edge guarded or gimped the way the other characters have to worry about it.

 

[Archangel]

i think marth fox is even (unless fox runs away), falco and sheik **** marth, marth beats peach 55 (good until you have to kill... then they block anything you do and nair you), puff is pretty even, could be in marths favor but you literally have to play BORING AS HELL to do it otherwise you'll lose (i honestly don't think it's marth's favor only cuz, after like 40%, a bair hits marth off stage or to the ledge where he's in a super bad position, and if you get a back throw or edge hog, you can easily rest and KO marth. That's the only reasons why).

the problems with marth at high level is, many characters can just sit in shield and be safe from KOs leaving grab the only safe option, his moves won't combo into KOs, and marth gets comboed harder than almost every other top character (at least he gets comboed really hard to death by these 3 characters: falco, falcon, and sheik). This only applies to when they know how to combo marth though. That's one of the main reasons I think he's overrated. This is also the same reason I think puff is underrated. Jiggs can do everything safe knowing that, as long as she avoids a kill move (Blocks it -> rest can counterattack many kill move attempts on her), she won't get comboed by things except at low %s, and she also does not have to worry about being edge guarded or gimped the way the other characters have to worry about it.

I agree accept it feels to me like Sheik gets comboed more than Marth. Fox is annoying with his gay uairs but I really don't mind fox. Falco I get annoyed with because of the stupid lasers.

Can powershielding change the dynamics of the MU.

Answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_hSjI3Z8LM#t=11m27s

 

[the_CAM_factor]

i honestly think powershielding is overrated. im pretty good at it and after awhile your opponent just starts reading it and baiting you to do it. it super useful for forcing opponents to come at you but its not gonna make the match up that much easier.

 

[t3h Icy]

Mahie is amazing with powershielding, even moreso than Diakonos.

 

[the_CAM_factor]

zoso is really good at it too if anyone gets a chance to watch him play a falco

 

[bolt.]

TheCamfactor is the best powershielder I have ever played as falco vs marth, but I just got used to it and adapted.

Its good but pretty overrated.

PSing only works super well when out of the blue someone powershields a laser imo.

 

[Archangel]

yeah you can bait a power shield but you can bait pretty much anything in this game. Even so the worst that can happen is you shield. It's better than being caught jumping or just getting hit in the face.