Who Has the Strongest Spike in Brawl?

Crystanium · Sep 15, 2008

I am quite aware of Thinkaman's thread, Project Vertical: Kill Percents, Stage Ceilings, Character Usmash/Uair Knockback. However, in a thread at All is Brawl (AiB), asking who should deserve rock bottom, Captain Falcon or Ganondorf, a member of AiB said that Ness had the strongest spike, and that Ganondorf came in second. Yet, Thinkaman's information says that Ganondorf is the first strongest in spiking, while Ness comes in second. Conda, a member of AiB, made a Low-Percent Spike Strength Chart.

Conda notes in his thread that the purpose of this was to refute the idea that "Ness has the 2nd strongest spike" in Brawl. He also acknowledges that "It was obvious DK, Ike, Ness, and Ganon had the strongest spikes, and now I've proven whose is strongest at low %s." What I fail to see here is how Ness can have a better spike than Ganondorf at a low percent.

Adapt · Sep 15, 2008

Think of it this way:

Ganon's spike's initial knockback<Ness's spike's initial knockback
but Ganon's spike has a higher growth rate than Ness's

I don't know if this is correct, but if both the people are correct it could work that way.

EDIT: Curiosity got the better of me...

Ganon
23%, 2811 mph
323% 19962 mph

Initial Power: 1286.8
Growth Rate: 57.17

Ness
12% 3598 mph
312% 10581 mph

Initial Power: 3318.68
Growth Rate: 23.277

As you can see, Ness has a stronger spike at very low percentages, but Ganon catches up VERY quickly! I haven't seen such a high growth rate outside of a final smash before.

unwelc0med · Sep 15, 2008

strongest would be ganon

best is probably wolf/tl

but what do i know D:

chewyy · Sep 15, 2008

Adapt said:
Think of it this way:

Ganon's spike's initial knockback<Ness's spike's initial knockback
but Ganon's spike has a higher growth rate than Ness's

I don't know if this is correct, but if both the people are correct it could work that way.

EDIT: Curiosity got the better of me...

Ganon
23%, 2811 mph
323% 19962 mph

Initial Power: 1286.8
Growth Rate: 57.17

Ness
12% 3598 mph
312% 10581 mph

Initial Power: 3318.68
Growth Rate: 23.277

As you can see, Ness has a stronger spike at very low percentages, but Ganon catches up VERY quickly! I haven't seen such a high growth rate outside of a final smash before.

Not disagreeing, but why did you choose the wierd percents?

Steeler · Sep 15, 2008

you guys are crazy

link has the strongest spike

OrlanduEX · Sep 15, 2008

Steeler36 from Nintendo NSider! said:
you guys are crazy

link has the strongest spike

ROFL. And would move would that be?

Black_Heretic · Sep 16, 2008

OrlanduEX said:
ROFL. And would move would that be?

dtilt facing backwards on the edge?

Xanthus · Sep 16, 2008

I think he means toon link? and if not... lolwut?

I wish they didn't take away Adult links psuedo spike with the spin attack =(. Not that it would be as useful with the automatic ledge grabbing. Still... would be nice.

BudaBoy · Sep 16, 2008

Don't have any numbers but has anyone considered getting smacked by D3's up-b?

mariofanpm12 · Sep 16, 2008

Who Has the Strongest Spike in Brawl?

To answer your exact question, Ganondorf. 22% (23% at some instant, and 17% if sour-spotted) and always Spikes, has a better growth rate than Ness's.

But in actuality, do you mean who has the strongest or the most effective overall?

If so, then there could be several answers to this.

OrlanduEX · Sep 16, 2008

It's Ganondorf's dair.

/thread

4Serial · Sep 16, 2008

I heard that Link's d-tilt spike is a definite kill at 0%
You don't have to be facing backwards like someone mentioned, the hitbox is just really small and right on Link and the hilt of the sword instead of the actual blade and facing backwards helps.

it's retardedly difficult to hit with it and kill with it though unless they are just hanging on the edge. **** brawl and it's stupid edge systems

Greenstreet · Sep 16, 2008

unwelc0med said:
strongest would be ganon

best is probably wolf/tl

but what do i know D:

Without reasoning for your decision.....nothing.

gunterrsmash01 · Sep 16, 2008

metaknight has the best spike

Eddie G · Sep 16, 2008

ozz3000 said:
metaknight has the best spike

Agreed. XD

Aran · Sep 16, 2008

Adapt, how did you come across those precise mph numbers? Is it an ingame stat?

ph00tbag · Sep 16, 2008

chewyy said:
Not disagreeing, but why did you choose the wierd percents?

Ganon's dair (foot hitbox) does 23 percent. Ness' dair does 12.

You should also note that Ganon's torso hitbox has a base knockback of roughly 1529.6 and a growth rate of 45.2. This still starts out weaker than Ness' but still gets much stronger much faster. One of these days, I intended to go out an record knockbacks for every spike in the game, including spikes that can be judged based on floor bouncing, and doesn't really require much of a method beyond orchestrating the spikes. School got in the way, though.

Aran: after a match, go check the stats and find one called max launch(er) speed. If you only connect with one hit, then that hit's knockback at that percent will be shown.

Fino · Sep 16, 2008

I think NANA has the best spike in the game. that CG into fair spike.... Booo

~Fino

smaci92 · Sep 16, 2008

i say ganon...but I'm perfectly happy with my dk's spike

Amazing Ampharos · Sep 16, 2008

If my calculations are correct, Ness's meteor is stronger at 23% and below while Ganondorf's is stronger at 24% and above. Both of these numbers are before the hit; this is the only way to do the calculation to fairly account for the way that Ganondorf's does 11% more damage than Ness's. The "equality" point for damage after the hit is around 60%, but that's obviously a number really biased against Ganondorf.

~ Gheb ~ · Sep 16, 2008

ozz3000 said:
metaknight is the best spike

fixed

10chars

Adapt · Sep 16, 2008

ph00tbag said:
One of these days, I intended to go out an record knockbacks for every spike in the game, including spikes that can be judged based on floor bouncing, and doesn't really require much of a method beyond orchestrating the spikes. School got in the way, though.

I'll give you a hand with that ph00tbag, because I was thinking about doing that myself.

Amazing Ampharos said:
If my calculations are correct, Ness's meteor is stronger at 23% and below while Ganondorf's is stronger at 24% and above. Both of these numbers are before the hit; this is the only way to do the calculation to fairly account for the way that Ganondorf's does 11% more damage than Ness's. The "equality" point for damage after the hit is around 60%, but that's obviously a number really biased against Ganondorf.

I was much too tired last night to do those calculations, thanks.

ZeonStar · Sep 16, 2008

What do you mean when you say "Growth rate"?

Azzizaz · Sep 16, 2008

Ness at very low percents, Ganon at higher percents.

Crystanium · Sep 17, 2008

Adapt said:
Think of it this way:

Ganon's spike's initial knockback<Ness's spike's initial knockback
but Ganon's spike has a higher growth rate than Ness's

I don't know if this is correct, but if both the people are correct it could work that way.

EDIT: Curiosity got the better of me...

Ganon
23%, 2811 mph
323% 19962 mph

Initial Power: 1286.8
Growth Rate: 57.17

Ness
12% 3598 mph
312% 10581 mph

Initial Power: 3318.68
Growth Rate: 23.277

As you can see, Ness has a stronger spike at very low percentages, but Ganon catches up VERY quickly! I haven't seen such a high growth rate outside of a final smash before.

I should've tried this out myself, Adapt. :laugh:

That is some crazy stuff, though.

Adapt · Sep 17, 2008

ZeonStar said:
What do you mean when you say "Growth rate"?

knockback as a function of damage percentage is a linear relationship for a given character and move.

the equation is as follows:

Knockback = (Initial Power) + (Growth Rate)*(Damage Percentage)

"Damage Percentage" is taken after the move hits.

tyguy52 · Sep 17, 2008

olimar's spike is very strong imo... depending on the pikmen used

M@v · Sep 17, 2008

your all wrong. Luigis down taunt.

M@v · Sep 17, 2008

your all wrong. Luigis down taunt on the edge.

Crizthakidd · Sep 17, 2008

how do u meteor cancel in the game. like as soon as u get spiked the best thing to do is time or mash up B? sometimes i try to airdodge instead and its too late for up b but yea.... meteor cancel in melee had the sickest timing and looked really noticble when u did it but idk in brawl

Adapt · Sep 17, 2008

Here is some interesting data. Both of the topic's quoted in the OP are wrong. Luigi's down taunt IS the strongest spike for all intents and purposes. (Never mind how hard it is to land)

Code:

Character	Move	        Initial Power 	Growth Rate 	Damage	      4725 MPH
Luigi	        Down Taunt	4725	        0.0	        2	      0
Ganon	        Dair	        1286.8	        57.17           23	      37.13993353
Ganon	        Down-B	        2220.6	        40.427	        15	      46.94869765
Ike	        Dtilt	        2377.487	38.04	        14	      47.71169821
Ness	        Dair	        3318.68	        23.277	        12	      48.41672037
Ike	        Dair	        1901.88	        42.82	        16	      49.92993928
Zelda	        Dair          	2108.413	38.537	        16	      51.89804603
ZSS	        Down-B	        2531.96	        33.253	        12	      53.95013984
Snake	        Fair	        1898.6	        40.427	        15	      54.91367156
DK	        Dair	        1776.413	38.537	        16	      60.51314321
TL	        Dair	        1778.893	34.257	        16	      70.00014596
DK	        Fair	        1487.653	36.397	        16	      72.94543506

Samus	        Dair           	673.55	        40.43	        15	      85.20900322

This is a list of the top 12 spikes in the game (plus Samus's Dair, which I wanted to find out because it's like her only kill move.

The last column is the percentage (before damage) at which the move will spike with a knockback of 4725 mph. 4725 was picked because it is the only knockback of Luigi's taunt. I couldn't survive the taunt spike with Mario so I figure the knockback is sufficient to properly rank the spikes. Ness's dair becomes weak really fast... If I had used a lower knockback to test it would have moved up in the rankings.

Soon I will finish the table and add the rest, but this is enough for tonight.

Yoshima · Sep 17, 2008

Adapt said:
Here is some interesting data. Both of the topic's quoted in the OP are wrong. Luigi's down taunt IS the strongest spike for all intents and purposes. (Never mind how hard it is to land)

Code:

Character Move Initial Power Growth Rate Damage 4725 MPH Luigi Down Taunt 4725 0.0 2 0 Ganon Dair 1286.8 57.17 23 37.13993353 Ganon Down-B 2220.6 40.427 15 46.94869765 Ike Dtilt 2377.487 38.04 14 47.71169821 Ness Dair 3318.68 23.277 12 48.41672037 Ike Dair 1901.88 42.82 16 49.92993928 Zelda Dair 2108.413 38.537 16 51.89804603 ZSS Down-B 2531.96 33.253 12 53.95013984 Snake Fair 1898.6 40.427 15 54.91367156 DK Dair 1776.413 38.537 16 60.51314321 TL Dair 1778.893 34.257 16 70.00014596 DK Fair 1487.653 36.397 16 72.94543506 Samus Dair 673.55 40.43 15 85.20900322

This is a list of the top 12 spikes in the game (plus Samus's Dair, which I wanted to find out because it's like her only kill move.

The last column is the percentage (before damage) at which the move will spike with a knockback of 4725 mph. 4725 was picked because it is the only knockback of Luigi's taunt. I couldn't survive the taunt spike with Mario so I figure the knockback is sufficient to properly rank the spikes. Ness's dair becomes weak really fast... If I had used a lower knockback to test it would have moved up in the rankings.

Soon I will finish the table and add the rest, but this is enough for tonight.

Mamawigi's down taunt can Spike and it's the strongest!? Awesome, I knew it could inflict damage but I did not know it could spike... I'll have to try it.

FatalFrost · Sep 17, 2008

LOL Luigi's taunt at the top of the list xD

Blackbelt · Sep 17, 2008

FatalFrost said:
LOL Luigi's taunt at the top of the list xD

Somewhere, Sakurai is laughing right now because of this.

brinboy789 · Sep 17, 2008

ganons strongest...but imo samus is easiest to use and pull off successful spike

Adapt · Sep 17, 2008

About Luigi's Taunt: Note that it is only stronger than other spikes at lower percentages.

For example at 38% Ganon's dair is a stronger spike, and at 50% Ike's dair is stronger.

Big O · Sep 18, 2008

Adapt said:
Here is some interesting data. Both of the topic's quoted in the OP are wrong. Luigi's down taunt IS the strongest spike for all intents and purposes. (Never mind how hard it is to land)

Code:

Character Move Initial Power Growth Rate Damage 4725 MPH Luigi Down Taunt 4725 0.0 2 0 Ganon Dair 1286.8 57.17 23 37.13993353 Ganon Down-B 2220.6 40.427 15 46.94869765 Ike Dtilt 2377.487 38.04 14 47.71169821 Ness Dair 3318.68 23.277 12 48.41672037 Ike Dair 1901.88 42.82 16 49.92993928 Zelda Dair 2108.413 38.537 16 51.89804603 ZSS Down-B 2531.96 33.253 12 53.95013984 Snake Fair 1898.6 40.427 15 54.91367156 DK Dair 1776.413 38.537 16 60.51314321 TL Dair 1778.893 34.257 16 70.00014596 DK Fair 1487.653 36.397 16 72.94543506 Samus Dair 673.55 40.43 15 85.20900322

This is a list of the top 12 spikes in the game (plus Samus's Dair, which I wanted to find out because it's like her only kill move.

The last column is the percentage (before damage) at which the move will spike with a knockback of 4725 mph. 4725 was picked because it is the only knockback of Luigi's taunt. I couldn't survive the taunt spike with Mario so I figure the knockback is sufficient to properly rank the spikes. Ness's dair becomes weak really fast... If I had used a lower knockback to test it would have moved up in the rankings.

Soon I will finish the table and add the rest, but this is enough for tonight.

For these numbers did you test them on opponents hanging on the edge or on standing opponents because the knockback is different in each case for spikes (usually more knockback on aerial opponents). That might change the list around but prob not much. I think Marth's tipper dair is the most radical change between grounded and aerial so he might actually be in the top ten.

Darth JoBak · Sep 29, 2008

Ganon's dair growth rate is out of control!

CR4SH · Sep 29, 2008

Adapt said:
About Luigi's Taunt: Note that it is only stronger than other spikes at lower percentages.

For example at 38% Ganon's dair is a stronger spike, and at 50% Ike's dair is stronger.

That's completely irrelevant though. It's an insta-kill at 0%. Stronger? They get insta-killed 5 miliseconds faster? Why even mention it?

MeleeFan25 · Sep 29, 2008

I gotta to go with Ganondorfs spike been hit by that a couple of times and it shoots you right down

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