Who else is nervous about Brawl potentially sucking?

[blazefox]

If every single character was balanced the game would be boring, I don't mind that some characters have disadvantages while others have good advantages and few disadvantages.

Amen. The pros and cons are what make characters unique: ex. Fox has speed, but little firepower. Ganondorf is the opposite. Marth has range but little power to his swings (except the friggin tipper....) and floats, while Link has power with medium range weight.
What I meant is they should rely more on timing then button-mashing, like ssb64 as a balancing factor, reducing the over powered moves that in the hands of a beginner are useless : ex. waveshining, the coms. breaking throws nearly immediatly...etc.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Ill have to try that, I rarely waveland with mario.. I do bair approaches though... im in love with his shffled uair.

ex. Fox has speed, but little firepower

Upsmash... O.o insane combo ability... shine spikes.. Upsmash is SO strong, fox is a perfect mix of everything a smash character needs, with his upsmash having the power to KILL. Just plain out *****' ''you're dead, chump'' Hence the top tier ranking.

 

[Zephyr]

His really smooth gameplay allows for him to move quickly via wavelanding WHILE attacking the enemy, totally confuses people who don't play against Marios often. Face it, there aren't that many Mario users, and innovative tactics for him really surprise people.

And I am in love with Fox's upsmash. ^^

 

[Red Exodus]

Fox's upsmash is so overpowered it's not funny, unless you DI down at 100% with a medium to heavy weight character, you are dead. I got killed by an excessive C-sticker like that on my last stock, stupid FFAs...

P.S. Fox is my main.

Anyway I Mario us like my 3rd-4th best character, I can juggle pretty well with bair-> bair-> uair -> land repeat, maybe change directions for a fair. I got a guy stuck in a juggle like that, he was so pissed lol.

 

[LinkGadra]

I know that in any game with multiple characters, some will just be better than others, but I would like to see less drastic differences between tiers. Probably won't happen, but I can dream, right?

 

[El HP]

Wavedash is in brawl in the second trailer before the scene where fox appears wario does a waveland, in the nintendo world games 2007 trailer you can see pikachu doing a wavedash from a platform. L-cancel seems to be there as well look at the beginning of the second trailer when mario does his f-air he reacts so fast like if he cancels.

 

[Mr.GAW]

No offense man, but those aren't wavedashes.

 

[pikachun00b7]

SSBB will have a slower game speed....that is a fact. I am not worried to much of brawl because it will be different then melee like as SSB64 was different then SSBM. If the speed is changed, if the tiers are messed up, if some techs are gone then OK. Sakui is spending long hours on the game and says that it is good, so cant we trust him? I am hoping for lots of gameplay changes to make an entire competitive play separate from melee's. Instead of pessimistically waiting till brawl comes, let us be optimistic for this new game.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I know that in any game with multiple characters, some will just be better than others, but I would like to see less drastic differences between tiers. Probably won't happen, but I can dream, right?

It's just not gonna happen...

I don't like this whole ''SSBB is going to be slower'' stuff. Not one bit.

 

[Superstar]

It's just not gonna happen...

I don't like this whole ''SSBB is going to be slower'' stuff. Not one bit.

Sakurai never said slower, MODERATED. Some things slower, some faster. I looked, the attack/running speed looks the same, but the knockback speed seems slower, so that could increase combo potential.

Superstar : I don't main mario at all, but I dabble in him. My friend always insults me because he thinks doc is much better but I just prefer mario, dunno why I just do. I'm not half bad with mario, Ill post some vids of me playing him when I get the chance so you can see how I stack up to you, maybe learn something from my probably different play-style.

Im new at mario though, I have good Mindgames with him and spacing but I lack comboes... I really, really like him though hes VERY fun. My main (shiek) is fun for me to play, but not as much so as other characters, mostly because when I play her vs my friends (pretty high skilled) I win 90% of the time. Shes the only reason I made it out of pools in my first tourney last week, haha I tied for last place (30th) with like 8 people, but my first bracket match was vs the best player in the east coast. I got ra3ped.

Mario's SH -> double bair -> Waveland combo potential for mindgames is huge. I love it.

I agree, Mario is a very fun character. I tried Doc, not as much freedom. Oh, and Zephyr, its more of Mario's SH -> double bair/Waveland, its one or the other if you shorthop [I dunno about double bair though without wavedash, never tried it]. Using the SHABAWD, I managed to wall of pain my brother's Luigi [he is no good with him].

The shuffl up-airs are awesome, however, I had a problem hitting him when he DI'd behind me, so I SHABAWD. :D

All the best combos start with grab. Also try jabbing, or wavedash->jabbing->downsmash.
Grab, throw, Up-smash, there are MANY combos.

Also, when you get the videos, show me. I have a digital camera, but not only is my dad against tournies, but also against filming and uploading.

 

[AxemRed]

Okay, to everyone who's worried about the speed...do you honestly think Brawl will be any slower than Smash 64? I'd say there's about a 0% chance of that happening. And seeing as Smash 64 works fine on a competitive level, speed is the last thing you should be worried about. Mindgames can exist without speed. They can also exist without wavedashing.

Honestly, the number of people who just mention wavedashing...how about L-canceling? Jump canceling? Crouch Canceling? Short hopping? Fast Falling? For some reason, people seem to think wavedashing is more important than all of these combined..."If wavedashing isn't in Brawl, I'm not playing it..." or something like that. Absolutely ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, wavedashing is useful, but the way people use the word as a synonym for "advanced techniques" is disturbing at best.

Another thing. Don't you guys remember that some techniques were taken out of Smash 64 in the transition to Melee? In Melee, you can no longer drop through a platform directly out of a shield. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe you can cancel a shield by upsmashing either. Even some character-specific ones, like jiggsliding, are not present in Melee. While I would like to see these things make a return in Brawl, I can live without them. Even though they were absent in Melee, Melee was more than playable. For the same reason, I'm really not worried at all about Brawl.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Fox's upsmash is so overpowered it's not funny, unless you DI down at 100% with a medium to heavy weight character, you are dead. I got killed by an excessive C-sticker like that on my last stock, stupid FFAs...

P.S. Fox is my main.

DI down won't do anything. You have to DI perpendicular to your trajectory. GJ.

About Brawl being slower--even if it is just the knockback that is slowed down, there will be serious ramifications. Obviously, comboing will be easier, but just as significant, DIing out of combos will be easier. So I don't see how this is possibly an improvement.

And even if it "only" slows down to SSB64 speed, that is too slow for me. SSB64 was NOT a great game. It was fun and I enjoyed playing it but it is nowhere near the masterpiece that is Melee, for many reasons, one of which is its low speed, another of which is the overuse of freeze frames and "drill" combos.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe you can cancel a shield by upsmashing either..

You're wrong. You can JC into an upsmash out of shield.

 

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

I' ve been checking out the nintendo world trailer and it looks like it's pretty much the same speed. Maybe we think its slower because we l-cancel, wavedash, etc., so when we compare the speed it seems slower. (not sure 'bout that)

 

[Superstar]

Exactly, that's what I've been saying. The only part that seems much different is when Kirby up-smashes, and they fly off fairly slowly.

About Brawl being slower--even if it is just the knockback that is slowed down, there will be serious ramifications. Obviously, comboing will be easier, but just as significant, DIing out of combos will be easier. So I don't see how this is possibly an improvement.

Actually, for fast characters its no different, but think of the characters that cannot combo because they are too slow, and the opponents fly off too far.

On this mechanism, I assume that Mario's SHABAWD [if it still exists] would work almost as a wall of pain, since the character flying off too far is a problem.

 

[AxemRed]

DI down won't do anything. You have to DI perpendicular to your trajectory. GJ.

About Brawl being slower--even if it is just the knockback that is slowed down, there will be serious ramifications. Obviously, comboing will be easier, but just as significant, DIing out of combos will be easier. So I don't see how this is possibly an improvement.

And even if it "only" slows down to SSB64 speed, that is too slow for me. SSB64 was NOT a great game. It was fun and I enjoyed playing it but it is nowhere near the masterpiece that is Melee, for many reasons, one of which is its low speed, another of which is the overuse of freeze frames and "drill" combos.

Overuse of drill combos? If you overuse any tactic in Smash 64 against a good player, including going for drill combos, you will lose. There are plenty of combos that don't involve drills- In fact, only half of the character's movesets include drill attacks. More freeze frames just means you can't make as many mistakes, or you'll get punished for them. Speed isn't a problem, most of competitive smash 64 play involves reading your opponent, not being faster than your opponent. Hell, the same goes for melee most of the time. The only problems I can think of concerning smash 64 is less influential DI and a lack of wall teching.

Besides, I don't think you can give a valid criticism of the technical aspects of ssb64's fighting engine without at least being quasi-active on Kaillera.

Edit: If the general speed does drop down to smash 64, it's still very likely that there will be advanced techs to speed things up and give players more options anyway. But I guess that's what most people have essentially been saying in the first place...

And just because the knockback speed slows down, it doesn't mean you have better DI. Case in point: Smash 64.

 

[Superstar]

And just because the knockback speed slows down, it doesn't mean you have better DI. Case in point: Smash 64.

Actually, it would mean you have more time to DI, so its EASIER DI. Also, the one of the biggest problems with combos is keeping up with the knockback. But wait, this would make Fox even MORE deadly.

Shine combos work best when the opponent is not knocked back to far, leaving some characters protected. If their flyoff speed is reduced, that advantage of those characters is reduced. Fox might be able to shine combo any character.

[I'm assuming, I'm only learning Fox].

 

[Zephyr]

Actually, the reason Fox is unable to shine combo many characters is because some are knocked down by the shine, like Fox or Falco. For those who aren't knocked down, they can CC ahead of time to retaliate.

 

[Superstar]

Actually, the reason Fox is unable to shine combo many characters is because some are knocked down by the shine, like Fox or Falco. For those who aren't knocked down, they can CC ahead of time to retaliate.

Well, I know next to nothing about them. I thought some characters were unable to be shine comboed was because they were knocked too far too fast, but oh well, thanks..

Look at 28 seconds into the trailer, the shorthops are still good. SHFFLs might still exist. Someone might have brought this up, though.

 

[Davewashing]

Looking at a well-polished game like Melee, I would agree that it is hard to see how things could possibly get any better. But that doesn't necessarily mean Brawl will be a step downward.
Remember, we don't know all the details yet. There's bound to be some great surprises in store, possibly even some that might change the way you play Smash Bros. in a big way! Just think of how things went going from Smash Bros. for N64 to Melee. Smash 64 was great enough, but Melee improved on so many things in a big way! Though it might seem impossible right now, it's possible that the same thing might happen going from Melee to Brawl.
At the very worst, one can anticipate Brawl being just like Melee, except with better graphics, more characters, new stages, new moves, and all-new super attacks. Essentially Melee 2.0.
That's pretty good for a worst-case scenario!

As for the changes they're making, I'm seeing all kinds of potential.
A lot of people are looking down on the idea of accessibility, thinking the game will be too toned-down to be deep or enjoyable. You have to remember that Mr. Sakurai has real Smash Bros. experts working with him on this game.
Think of how fast rolling was in the game footage! It's more or less the speed of a wavedash now. I believe what they're doing to make the game more "accessible" is allowing players to perform 'advanced techniques' (or at least actions similar to them) with an even simpler and more convenient button command. That way, more players will be able to use advanced moves.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Looking at a well-polished game like Melee, I would agree that it is hard to see how things could possibly get any better. But that doesn't necessarily mean Brawl will be a step downward.
Remember, we don't know all the details yet. There's bound to be some great surprises in store, possibly even some that might change the way you play Smash Bros. in a big way! Just think of how things went going from Smash Bros. for N64 to Melee. Smash 64 was great enough, but Melee improved on so many things in a big way! Though it might seem impossible right now, it's possible that the same thing might happen going from Melee to Brawl.
At the very worst, one can anticipate Brawl being just like Melee, except with better graphics, more characters, new stages, new moves, and all-new super attacks. Essentially Melee 2.0.
That's pretty good for a worst-case scenario!

But that's not the worst case scenario. Most of us are worried about engine changes. I'm excited about new characters and stages, but if they make significant changes to the engine it won't matter. I'm very worried that they will move the game in a "random=fun" direction, which is a Nintendo trend. So the game might be super fun for those late night 4-person crazy FFAs with your noob friends, but it could suck for 1v1 play. Hell, most Smashers don't even think of the game as a 1v1 game. I used to try to get my scrub friends to play 1v1s and they would complain that the game was designed for FFA--"it's called Melee for a reason lolz." So it's very possible that Brawl will be extremely successful on the "fun" front while simultaneously a letdown for the competitive community.

As for the changes they're making, I'm seeing all kinds of potential.
A lot of people are looking down on the idea of accessibility, thinking the game will be too toned-down to be deep or enjoyable. You have to remember that Mr. Sakurai has real Smash Bros. experts working with him on this game.
Think of how fast rolling was in the game footage! It's more or less the speed of a wavedash now. I believe what they're doing to make the game more "accessible" is allowing players to perform 'advanced techniques' (or at least actions similar to them) with an even simpler and more convenient button command. That way, more players will be able to use advanced moves.

But they're not ADVANCED techniques if everyone can do them with the press of a button, are they? Implementing wavedashing or a wavedash-replacing feature via the press of a button removes all of the skill behind that technique. It's like the Halo series. In Halo 1 you had to aim. But in Halo 2 if you shoot in someone's general vicinity you'll probably get a kill. In Halo 1 you actually have to be at an appropriate distance to melee, and you must aim it. In Halo 2 you can just hit the melee button from four feet away, and amazingly enough, you lunge forward and curve toward the enemy. Anyway, the point is that simplifications for increased accessability are usually a BAD thing. They're good for beginners, but bad for the experienced because they leave little room for improvement.

For instance, imagine in Brawl, they map one jump button for full-jump, one for short-hop. You press R + direction to roll, L + direction to wavedash. L-cancelling is removed. They remove the 40-frame tech limit, allowing you to spam R/L to tech. They replace the two grab animations with a single grab animation, eliminating JC grabs. Etc.

The game would be garbage.

Cool name btw

 

[Zephyr]

For instance, imagine in Brawl, they map one jump button for full-jump, one for short-hop. You press R + direction to roll, L + direction to wavedash. L-cancelling is removed. They remove the 40-frame tech limit, allowing you to spam R/L to tech. They replace the two grab animations with a single grab animation, eliminating JC grabs. Etc.

The game would be garbage.

Cool name btw

I don't imagine that Sakurai would have an entire extra button dedicated to just SHing. Most smashers don't know that SH exists, or care.

Having two different things from a shield would only make the game more complicated to average players, so no.

Why would he remove L-canceling? It was intentionally left in Melee, and no one outside the competitive community even cares if it's left in.

I agree that removing the 2/3 second tech limit would be a negative, but it's possible. We'd just have to bear with it.

Why would they merge the grab animations? They made two for a good reason, mainly because they didn't want people who were running towards others and grabbing to look like they were standing up. How ironic. >_>

EDIT: I was just messing around with Bowser and Jigglypuff, I down-threw Jiggs and it did no damage at all. I thought this was some sort of mistake, so I tried it on different stages, percentages, everything you can think of. Bowser's D-throw does absolutely NO damage to Jigglypuff. Is this a commonly known fact?

 

[Brawlmatt202]

I've thought about that as well.

It's kind of similar to the whole "Sonic Heroes" thing. Many people, seeing the return of many characters, thought it would be ones of the greatest Sonic games ever! But... well, you know the rest.

I have confide3nce that Brawl will be awesome, though.

 

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

I need to buy a Wii, or they will be harder to find when Brawl comes out.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Ok, to the guy saying if brawl is like ssb classic than itl be fine : shut up.

Its too easy to reach the maximum potential of the game in classic, once you spend a few months training, ANYONE can do 0-death combos EVERYTIME with any character theyre used to, expecially pika, kirby, and captain falcon.

Here, try this with captain falcon. Forward throw (at 0%) dash underneath him, cancel the dash with an up smash, then go for as many upairs as you feel you can squeeze in (usually you can get 3 if you're decent, 4 if you're really good like I was, the 3rd one being very close to the ground and l canceld) then ending it with a falcon dive. ITs a garunteed 90-100% combo on ANY character, regardless of DI. There are too many unescapable combos in classic and you have SO MUCH TIME to think about the next move... in melee 1 milisecond of uncertainty on the attackers part and the victim breaks loose.

I really doubt brawl is gonna be that slow though, it looks pretty fast from the trailers, just n00bs are playing. They really shouldda got ken/isai to record the gameplay demos for the trailers IMO

 

[Superstar]

As for the tiers thing. Tiers aren't the only factor, theres skill #1, Tiers.. but then theres also this

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2862/phannassbmcharactermatcdp9.gif

Counter list. This actually is more relevant than the tiers. Deals with specific matchups

Superstar : I don't main mario at all, but I dabble in him. My friend always insults me because he thinks doc is much better but I just prefer mario, dunno why I just do. I'm not half bad with mario, Ill post some vids of me playing him when I get the chance so you can see how I stack up to you, maybe learn something from my probably different play-style.

Im new at mario though, I have good Mindgames with him and spacing but I lack comboes... I really, really like him though hes VERY fun. My main (shiek) is fun for me to play, but not as much so as other characters, mostly because when I play her vs my friends (pretty high skilled) I win 90% of the time. Shes the only reason I made it out of pools in my first tourney last week, haha I tied for last place (30th) with like 8 people, but my first bracket match was vs the best player in the east coast. I got ra3ped.

But I digress, if you havent, check out that counter list, and bookmark it.

I forgot to use this to my point.

Yes, I have seen that list before, and although there are some errors [how can Mario vs Luigi be a 6, Luigi has the real advantage], its fairly accurate.

Although that list is for specific matches, a point can be made about how unbalanced the game is. Look at the top of the ist, and then the bottom, see the matchups? Fox has no counters, while more than half the people counter Pichu. No particular character should have an advantage over almost EVERY character.

Of course, I don't want the game to be boring, so what I would like is that every character has specialities, pros and cons, but no characters pros and cons outweighs another character's pros and cons. Look at Fox, almost no cons whatsoever.

Of course, this is impossible, as it is a very delicate process. Not just that, the more characters you add, the more unbalanced it gets. I don't want all characters to be the same, but I want all of them to have a fighting chance.

 

[AxemRed]

Ok, to the guy saying if brawl is like ssb classic than itl be fine : shut up.

Its too easy to reach the maximum potential of the game in classic, once you spend a few months training, ANYONE can do 0-death combos EVERYTIME with any character theyre used to, expecially pika, kirby, and captain falcon.

Here, try this with captain falcon. Forward throw (at 0%) dash underneath him, cancel the dash with an up smash, then go for as many upairs as you feel you can squeeze in (usually you can get 3 if you're decent, 4 if you're really good like I was, the 3rd one being very close to the ground and l canceld) then ending it with a falcon dive. ITs a garunteed 90-100% combo on ANY character, regardless of DI. There are too many unescapable combos in classic and you have SO MUCH TIME to think about the next move... in melee 1 milisecond of uncertainty on the attackers part and the victim breaks loose.

I really doubt brawl is gonna be that slow though, it looks pretty fast from the trailers, just n00bs are playing. They really shouldda got ken/isai to record the gameplay demos for the trailers IMO

Heh, I would've used Kirby's u-tilt as an example instead. Anyway...if your idea of reaching maximum potential in smash 64 is simply being able to pull off 0%-death combos, then you still have a lot to learn. This next statement might seem redundant, but you have to start a combo to finish it. In your captain falcon example, any decent player knows the danger of being thrown at zero percent and will use any tactic to either prevent getting thrown or force damage on themselves to keep the falcon on its toes. You act like you know 10 times more about smash 64 than I do...of course I know about that combo. I play on Kaillera.

True, every character has basic devastating combos that can be learned with relatively little practice. But if your falcon is against, say, a laser-loving fox, will it be so easy to get that grab at 0%? Like I said before, smash 64 is about reading your opponent so you can start a combo. Sure, it's a much different style of play, but it actually takes quite a bit of practice to set up combos against good opponents with good mindgames. Learning how to do basic combos like the one you described is only the beginning.

And I don't get your point about being able to think about combos in smash 64. In both smash 64 and melee, there are basic combos that you know will work. You don't have to think about them too much. In smash 64, that falcon combo you brought up isn't a bad example. In melee, one example might be pillaring fox with falco at low percentage. There's really not much to think about there except which way fox DIs. And with less than months of practice, DI can be followed.

Oh, and...calm down. You have like, an anger streak there. Every post I see you make involves calling people n00bs and acting angry about them. You really shouldn't let things bother you that much. I'm just trying to defend smash 64 as a competitive game. If you still really don't believe me, then play me on Kaillera.

 

[Justin]

Hahaha, this happens oh so often. Dylan must be tired of people telling him to calm down.

I almost forgot how different classic smash is from Melee. I'd play it right now for old times sake, but my 64 is...God knows where..

 

[Shai Hulud]

I don't imagine that Sakurai would have an entire extra button dedicated to just SHing. Most smashers don't know that SH exists, or care.

Having two different things from a shield would only make the game more complicated to average players, so no.

Why would he remove L-canceling? It was intentionally left in Melee, and no one outside the competitive community even cares if it's left in.

I agree that removing the 2/3 second tech limit would be a negative, but it's possible. We'd just have to bear with it.

Why would they merge the grab animations? They made two for a good reason, mainly because they didn't want people who were running towards others and grabbing to look like they were standing up. How ironic. >_>

EDIT: I was just messing around with Bowser and Jigglypuff, I down-threw Jiggs and it did no damage at all. I thought this was some sort of mistake, so I tried it on different stages, percentages, everything you can think of. Bowser's D-throw does absolutely NO damage to Jigglypuff. Is this a commonly known fact?

I actually agree with you. I don't think most of what I said is going to happen--I was just making a point, namely that simplification of advanced techniques for increased accessibility is not a good thing.

And I can see the two jump buttons. There are at least two free buttons on the GC controller because of redundance. X/Y and L/R, and L/R have two functions, analog and digital, so that's three free buttons, theoretically.

 

[Shai Hulud]

I forgot to use this to my point.

Yes, I have seen that list before, and although there are some errors [how can Mario vs Luigi be a 6, Luigi has the real advantage], its fairly accurate.

Although that list is for specific matches, a point can be made about how unbalanced the game is. Look at the top of the ist, and then the bottom, see the matchups? Fox has no counters, while more than half the people counter Pichu. No particular character should have an advantage over almost EVERY character.

Of course, I don't want the game to be boring, so what I would like is that every character has specialities, pros and cons, but no characters pros and cons outweighs another character's pros and cons. Look at Fox, almost no cons whatsoever.

Of course, this is impossible, as it is a very delicate process. Not just that, the more characters you add, the more unbalanced it gets. I don't want all characters to be the same, but I want all of them to have a fighting chance.

It's inevitable that Brawl will be unbalanced. In Smash there's a bias towards the faster characters, and unless all the characters move/attack at the same speed in Brawl, the faster ones are generally going to have more potential in skilled hands.

 

[Red Exodus]

Slower character needs more KO and knockback ability since juggling and comboes are out of the question due to their speed. I think that's mainly where they slower characters fall down in Melee.

 

[Superstar]

Exactly, it is inevitable, as I stated. I just want it to be as balanced as possible. Melee is decently balanced, but I wish it could be better. That way, people would pick a wider variety of characters.

Right now, I wish to pick up Link, so that's Mario, Samus, Fox, and Link [my Mario is the only one that's any good, Samus second]. Sadly, he is not that good, so you really need to work with him. Its a shame that in order to be good, you need to pick higher tiers, at least as secondaries [there are people good enough to negate this]. You can't seriously hope to beat Ken with Pichu as your only character [of course, you can't hope to beat him with ANY character, but that's beside the point].'

My biggest fear is that it will be even MORE unbalanced, the more characters you add, the more nasty the process gets. You need to work much longer to achieve the same amount of balance.

 

[Red Exodus]

You can be good without high tiers, you just need to put in the effort. I'm sure Ken as lost to people playing with characters from a lower tier than the character he is playing as.

 

[Wolfblade]

You can be good without high tiers, you just need to put in the effort. I'm sure Ken as lost to people playing with characters from a lower tier than the character he is playing as.

Nicely put. It's true, if you put forth the effort and that characters falls in your play style then you could tackle somebody using a high tier character (assuming both opponents have have similar skill). For me I'm Link user, Pika user, Fox (only top teir main) and the ever so hated teir wise, Mewtwo. Even with the low tier Mewtwo, he has become one of my best characters simply because I spent way too much time playing with him and learning the way he moves. How many times did I get rocked by my pals Falco before I got good with Mewtwo?... ha ha take a guess. I think my wavebird ran out of batery power twice before I could put up a fight. I'd actually like to tackle a tourny with Mewtwo just to see if I could hold my own with him, and if I get rocked in round one then onto one of the other character I like, ha ha.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

It all comes down to skill like I said.

Player one bigger power level >> Player two of lower power level

Player one can beat player two, provided he is much better than him with any character he knows how to play to an advanced degree, could even be bowser. (Perfect bowsers will never win good tourneys, but a skilled bowser could beat even an experienced but lower skilled marth)

But as the gap between skill narrows, the tier list applies more, and more heavily. As the tier list is meant for each character at the control of pro players who are on an equal level.

My theory, anyhow ^^

 

[THK]

Hum. While I like the tourny level scene. Quite a few of it's people are rather simple minded.

In my opinion, many folks are worrying about the wrong things.

 

[Red Exodus]

^^ such as??

 

[El HP]

I believe melee would be very balanced if it wasn't because of sheik, marth, peach, falco and fox. I don't hate fox as much as the others because at least it takes skill to play as him while sheik, marth and peach are the easiest characters to use in the game their cons are few and their pros are many, I agree with the above comments others characters like Luigi, Dr. Mario, Ganon, Falcon, Samus, DK etc require much more effort to master that's why not many people play as them.

 

[Coin you up]

Caution Long Post!

Before you read my post please respect my personal opinions about the wave dash and what I think of it and the people who use it. Reader Discretion is advised.

After from what I just read from bits and parts of the thread. I see people are worried about wave dashing being taken out and other glitches like L-cancel. Well people must remember those are glitches and were never meant to be put in the game. I wouldn't be sad if they took them out *well may be L cancel you got to be fast with Mario*. Not only that some characters can get a make over so well with a new move set they won't need it. Melee was a rushed game title and was one of the best-rushed game tittles I've ever seen despite the many clones there are in the game. I mean look how Fox looks he looks like he's going to be able to pull off some crazy stuff with that blaster out at all times. Look at Link you can just tell by the look in his eyes I got some new tricks up my sleeve.

For the characters we haven't seen look at other moves you haven't seen from them! Luigi might be a thunder type for all we know Mario brothers *something*in time. Luigi and Mario both had special moves if you can time your counting meter to 3. Mario had his Fire Hand, which is his super smash in Brawl. And Luigi had his Thunder Hand Which he shot out a beam of lighting with both hands. Luigi might spark us up and take Doc's place at being the Thunder Bro. Dk he's going to change so much!!! He still as a lot of moves that haven't been seen like his coconut gun! Gannon same thing as Dk he has a lot of moves that we haven't seen from him. What I'm trying to say is the clones in melee and the characters from the past that have many other moves like Dk.

Are only images of what their true powers are going to be. Luigi will have his vacuum. Gannon will have his sword. Dk will have his coconut gun. THEY ARE.... GOING TO TAKE WAVE DASHING OUT. I'm not saying like I know this for sure but. Melee was a rushed game and rushed games always have glitches. I dunno if Sakurai has seen the world of competitive smash but if he had he probably did not intend it to be like it is. Again I still dunno if that’s a true statement I mean he could of put those glitches in their him self just to see if people could find them and use them to their advantages.

But then again if a experienced glitched player played and experienced player with out glitching his character to do wave dash and L-cancel or any other glitch move the answer is obvious about who's going to win. But does that make the glitched player a noob? Even though he trained for month’s hours on end to make his character good with glitches in the game? If they do take out wave dashing it only makes Brawl a Harder game for maybe the glitched player. Example: Fox he is super fast *well not that fast but fast! * Faster then Mario the only way Mario can keep up with a Fox is if he wave dashes. But if fox wave dashes Mario might and will be owned. What I'm trying to say is if you depend on a glitch to make your main good don't you think that’s a little sad because if you know that glitch and some one else doesn't you own them.

I know Sakurai did want his game to be competively played with a glitch that was in the game. Now I'm I still good even though I can only Wave Dash in one direction IMO does that make a noob because IMO you shouldn't rely on a glitch to be good. So if you rely on wave dash too much what’s going to happen if they take it out? The people who learn the wave dash and use it all time as for everything like attacking, defending, and countering will *I'm not saying this like I know this for sure* and might probably suck at Brawl. In all I'm not calling people who wave dash noobs if that what your thinking.

As for me if wave dashing is still in Brawl hoorah looks like I'm going to have to rely on it now to win and I know now it was meant to be put in. I still just practice glitching my main but will I do it in competitive play yes and no because I want to see how good I am with out it. I mean those glitches seemed like they were meant to be put in the game right? Cause they were so hard to do and it took time'ing and training with other opponents to do them so that’s why they were worth learning just as a just in case for competitive play. I mean I still want Super Smash Bros. to be competitive but not with a glitch that was accidentally put in the game to make it competitive. And one thing to all you people expect change and expect change to be good.

Every character that was in melee will change*I'm not saying like I know this for sure* into a new move set because if not...Brawl is just Melee but better graphics new characters more air time and new stages. And I'm sure Sakurai is not going to make Brawl like that because Super Smash Bros. Melee is still the #1 most best game for Game Cube. Sakurai doesn't want Super Smash Bros. Brawl to be the #1 most worst game for the Wii.

I'm not against wave dashing I'm with it. But I don't want to rely on it to a point where if they take it out of Brawl I wont be good at the game. For one I though Super Smash Bros. Melee was the best game in the world even before the wave dash was found. If the wave dash is taken out in Brawl who gives a rats *** I'm serious, the game won't suck I'll still buy it. BTW GreenKirby is right!!!!!!!!

 

[Shai Hulud]

^^^
Jesus Christ man. Use some paragraphs if you want anyone to read that. It hurts my eyes just looking at it.

I believe melee would be very balanced if it wasn't because of sheik, marth, peach, falco and fox. I don't hate fox as much as the others because at least it takes skill to play as him while sheik, marth and peach are the easiest characters to use in the game their cons are few and their pros are many, I agree with the above comments others characters like Luigi, Dr. Mario, Ganon, Falcon, Samus, DK etc require much more effort to master that's why not many people play as them.

Dude Marth takes a lot of skill to play at a high level. Admittedly, noobs can pick up Marth and just fmash a lot, but being a skilled Marth requires very precise spacing. You don't see Ken/Azen/Husband spamming fsmashes. They chain fairs, they chainthrow, they tech-chase, and yes, if you step into that range you will get a tipper to the face.

I would say Sheik takes even less skill to pick up initially, but once again, you're not going to get very far with Sheik if you don't play really smart. Same with Peach.

Falco and Fox both take a lot of skill, but they are severely broken because they have no real counters.

Now Captain Falcon takes skill--you need tech skill AND mindgames to win. He's at a severe disadvantage against three of the most used characters--Fox, Falco, and Sheik. You have to know the matchups VERY well to even have a chance.