Who else is nervous about Brawl potentially sucking?

[AxemRed]

GREAT point about mewtwo.. wow that is an AWESOME point...

Seriously, its the lag after the roll that matters, not the roll itself at all.. Mewtwos roll is really fast, but nowhere near as good as his wavedash, or even his teleport skillz.

So yeah a lot of people are taking the increased speed in the rolls and asuming rolls are faster, but like you said it all depends on how long it takes before you can attack out of a roll. Im assuming it wont be at all like wavedashing where you can attack instantly.

Ha, I hope I alleviated some of your worries there . Granted, this doesn't guarantee wavedashing will be in, but I don't think rolls will be abusable. I mean, Snake's roll from the second trailer actually looked like a normal roll, didn't it? I forget... But Pit's roll looked like what Mewtwo's would have been if it was on par with the rest of the Melee characters.

 

[Metà]

I ****ing hate you.

 

[Evil Roopey]

If this was already stated in this giant thread I apologize (I wasn't up for reading 57 pages) but I thought this should be pointed out. What would Nintendo gain by taking wavedashing out? Leaving it in hurts no one and keeps us happy. I can't think of a person that will stop playing the game because wavedashing is in, but I can think of plenty of people that will stop if it isn't.

Oh and Meta leaving the smile that immediatly followed that quote is very deceiving.

 

[T Bird]

Are we still talking about wavedashing? It's not a glitch.Technically it's just incorporating jumping and air dodging with traction. Also, seeing as how it was an accident, but was discovered before release and left in... The only reason I could see them taking it out would be to make the game simpler for noobs, but frankly, if noobs want to get together and smash, they don't need to wavedash.
Frankly, all I want to see is a few new charecters and movesets along with some adjusted traction/weight like everyone said, and balancing. Everyone keeps going on about melee 2.0, but how much different would brawl be if the only thing changed would be balancing charecters? We would double the amount of characters that you would see at your average tournament. My hopes for this next game is that they keep all the techs and balance the charecters with respect to tourny play, not with items on crazy stages for noobs. And I will NOT buy the game if the do not fix match selection so that i don't have to go in and change to stock and mess with the settings all the time. It seems small, but it's so incredably simple and obvious to fix, if they haven't then they obviously didn't care about the game.

 

[dizzy]

Are we still talking about wavedashing? It's not a glitch.Technically it's just incorporating jumping and air dodging with traction. Also, seeing as how it was an accident, but was discovered before release and left in*snip*

AHH GODDd hGUHufdigfjdki.

No. There's no evidence to prove that wavedashing was "discovered before release and left in," debug mode or no.

 

[AxemRed]

If this was already stated in this giant thread I apologize (I wasn't up for reading 57 pages) but I thought this should be pointed out. What would Nintendo gain by taking wavedashing out? Leaving it in hurts no one and keeps us happy. I can't think of a person that will stop playing the game because wavedashing is in, but I can think of plenty of people that will stop if it isn't.

Are we still talking about wavedashing? It's not a glitch.Technically it's just incorporating jumping and air dodging with traction. Also, seeing as how it was an accident, but was discovered before release and left in... The only reason I could see them taking it out would be to make the game simpler for noobs, but frankly, if noobs want to get together and smash, they don't need to wavedash.
Frankly, all I want to see is a few new charecters and movesets along with some adjusted traction/weight like everyone said, and balancing. Everyone keeps going on about melee 2.0, but how much different would brawl be if the only thing changed would be balancing charecters? We would double the amount of characters that you would see at your average tournament. My hopes for this next game is that they keep all the techs and balance the charecters with respect to tourny play, not with items on crazy stages for noobs. And I will NOT buy the game if the do not fix match selection so that i don't have to go in and change to stock and mess with the settings all the time. It seems small, but it's so incredably simple and obvious to fix, if they haven't then they obviously didn't care about the game.

See Dylan, this is why your thread will never die . People new to the thread will argue about what wavedashing is or isn't, and then say either that there is no reason it shouldn't be in because "casual" players don't have to use it, or that it will be removed because it's a glitch. Honestly, I don't think anyone on these boards really knows what wavedashing is...I've heard so many explanations, and everyone thinks they're right. Dizzy was right about word of mouth being potentially dangerous...

Anyway...I'm wondering what exactly Metaknight is doing at the end of the second trailer on the Halberd stage, when he "rolls" off the platform in the middle. I'm actually not so sure it is a roll, considering his backwards hop might be his roll. Then again, maybe I shouldn't worry about it because I have no idea what it is, if it isn't a roll.

Edit: Lol, just saw your post Dizzy.

 

[Razgriz]

The main arguments surrounding wavedashing are really just arguments over the true nature of the word "glich".

 

[Sensai]

^^

Until recently, where arguements have shifted as to whether or not it should stay in.

 

[Davewashing]

Dylan: In response to what you posted:

I believe the ground combat will play an equal role in Brawl, but it could potentially have more moves that set up for the air combos.

The air will not take over the battle, but it'll probably be much more in depth, alowing for more variety of skills to be utalized in mid flight.

This is all speculation remember, but I believe the ground combat will be relatively the same (till we find out more about the new dodges/ crawling ect), and the aerial game will play a larger role than it did in previous games.

Again, ground combo-ing to more moves that set up aerial for aerial combos ect.

That's very similar to what I was thinking too!
Aside from what Wolfblade's post says about more skills to be used in mid-air and more attacks that can be used to set up air combos, I am thinking that Mr. Sakurai may possibly be making air combat easier to control.
Think of how ground combat works. Depending on what attacks you choose, you can land a large amount of hits on your opponent, and build up enough damage to deliver a final crushing blow!
Fighting in the air, however, is trickier. If you don't have an attack that "traps" your opponent for multiple hits (Link's ^B Spin attack, for example), you can only usually land one hit on the enemy, which usually sends them flying away before you can strike with another. Gravity also pulls your character back to the ground, usually leaving time for only one hit as well.
Looking at the teaser footage for Smash Bros. Brawl, you'll notice that several characters are shown using moves in mid-air that "trap" their opponents, allowing them to successfully land more hits. Look at Pit's spinning blade attack in the Pokemon Stadium stage, or Mario's Tornado for example.
I believe the "freeze frames" also add to this effect, keeping characters in the air longer, and giving players more time to pinpoint their opponent's position in the air, and strike where their opponents might fall.
Attacks such as these will allow players to score more damage on their opponets in the air, just as they can on land!

 

[Superstar]

That actually sounds good. Well, I don't really mind freeze frames, so long as they are not very long. If you also look at Kirby's upsmash, the knockback speed is slower. That would make some combos easier to pull off, and hard to escape for faster characters [even though you have more DI time, the DI can still be followed, and pro players have no trouble using smash DI, so it would not make as much of a difference]. This makes it better for those characters that cannot keep up with the knockback of their move. However, I hope they do not slow it down too much, if its slow, SHFFLAUA Brown Mario style might be ineffective, and characters that are too fast will have to react even faster.

Maybe for aerial combat, they could decrease REGULAR falling speed, but I didn't watch the trailer enough, I don't think that's what's going on.

Something I would like to see, on airdodging, you would not be paralyzed after using it. There would still be lag, but no paralyzed. It would make you less vulnerable in the air, and can be used as a short third jump. It could also protect you against airdodging. Of course, I'd prefer it only being used once per jump.

 

[Razgriz]

Hey I just got a crazy idea. It's off topic, but this thread lacks focus anyway. Wouldn't it be crazy if there was a feature in Brawl where if you predict exactly which attack your opponent is going to use, you can press the corresponding buttons and the shield button at the same time to perform a counter? Example: You're fighting a Sheik who just wont quit with the down tilt to FAir combo; He charges you with a grab, you spotdodge, and of course Marth's spotdodge has a long duration and Sheik has broken recovery time, and once again Sheik is going to down tilt to FAir you, so you tilt down and press A+L just as you get hit. (Give the counter a window of about 5 frames or so. I don't want to kill comboing.) Your character performs a flashy ground-based animation for the counter and Sheik is tought a lesson about being predictable. I like this idea so much I might just make a thread to see what people think about it.

 

[Wolfblade]

Hey I just got a crazy idea. It's off topic, but this thread lacks focus anyway. Wouldn't it be crazy if there was a feature in Brawl where if you predict exactly which attack your opponent is going to use, you can press the corresponding buttons and the shield button at the same time to perform a counter? Example: You're fighting a Sheik who just wont quit with the down tilt to FAir combo; He charges you with a grab, you spotdodge, and of course Marth's spotdodge has a long duration and Sheik has broken recovery time, and once again Sheik is going to down tilt to FAir you, so you tilt down and press A+L just as you get hit. (Give the counter a window of about 5 frames or so. I don't want to kill comboing.) Your character performs a flashy ground-based animation for the counter and Sheik is tought a lesson about being predictable. I like this idea so much I might just make a thread to see what people think about it.

No... besides... Marth has an actual counter as a move anyway. Thouse it could work in a sense, so I actually don't shun it all together. The idea does bring back a topic I discussed pages back. I proposed that there may be a counter dodge, but without attack after (less you do it yerself). Proposal of the counter noted though, I just see the fact that a couple characters actually have a counter to be cooler cause then its unique to those few characters.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Man I smashed very hard today with #2 on the eastern canada power rankings, and held my own, even won a match but I don't claim to be stupid enough to base anything off of one match, It was just a good match for me.. He's a great player though, I learned a lot.

/offtopic post after biweeklies..

 

[Wolfblade]

Man I smashed very hard today with #2 on the eastern canada power rankings, and held my own, even won a match but I don't claim to be stupid enough to base anything off of one match, It was just a good match for me.. He's a great player though, I learned a lot.

/offtopic post after biweeklies..

I love how you phrased it like it fit right in the topic so well though, ha ha. I honestly thought that somebody asked you about it at first and I just didn't read their post. Well if that's the case then congrats Dylan.

 

[Razgriz]

No... besides... Marth has an actual counter as a move anyway. Thouse it could work in a sense, so I actually don't shun it all together. The idea does bring back a topic I discussed pages back. I proposed that there may be a counter dodge, but without attack after (less you do it yerself). Proposal of the counter noted though, I just see the fact that a couple characters actually have a counter to be cooler cause then its unique to those few characters.

Well yeah some characters already have counters, but it's completely different. For one thing, they last a long time, and are a lot easier to pull off, and they are punishable, and of course you can't do them when you are in the midst of recovering from an attack. What I'm proposing can be done during the recovery time after an attack, or during the time when you are helpless after an up-b or airdodge, or during recovery from being hit, or during shield-hit-stun, or even during wind-up lag so slow moves can be utilized as bait for a brutal mind game. Think about the oohs and ahhs this would provoke from an audience, the depth it would add to the game, and the alternative it would offer to the rather frustrating cycle of recovering and being edgeguarded repeatedly.

 

[Wolfblade]

Well yeah some characters already have counters, but it's completely different. For one thing, they last a long time, and are a lot easier to pull off, and they are punishable, and of course you can't do them when you are in the midst of recovering from an attack. What I'm proposing can be done during the recovery time after an attack, or during the time when you are helpless after an up-b or airdodge, or during recovery from being hit, or during shield-hit-stun, or even during wind-up lag so slow moves can be utilized as bait for a brutal mind game. Think about the oohs and ahhs this would illicit from an audience, the depth it would add to the game, and the alternative it would offer to the rather frustrating cycle of recovering and being edgeguarded repeatedly.

Indeed, I assumed thats what you meant, though it could be abused quite swiftly in battle could it not? Again, not ruling it out, just wondering. I like the idea of having moments where you are helpless though, it means you work extra hard to avoid the attacks that cause it and you get better.

One last thing, the counter thing, although cool... seems too dbz "teleport behind and hit" to me, and it would make the game move faster wouldn't it? However the game is supposed to be slower. This counter also seems to add another thing for the casual people to be annoyed at.

 

[AverageScalp]

If that counter idea was to be implimented, then geeze... eventually pro matches would last FOREVER from counters being done all over the place. It also really doesn't seem to fit in with the style of the game... too traditional fighter-ish if you ask me.

 

[Razgriz]

Indeed, I assumed thats what you meant, though it could be abused quite swiftly in battle could it not? Again, not ruling it out, just wondering. I like the idea of having moments where you are helpless though, it means you work extra hard to avoid the attacks that cause it and you get better.

One last thing, the counter thing, although cool... seems too dbz "teleport behind and hit" to me, and it would make the game move faster wouldn't it? However the game is supposed to be slower. This counter also seems to add another thing for the casual people to be annoyed at.

Yeah I certainly don't want to go for a "Budokai" feel for Brawl, but I do want the game to be faster. I was rather upset with Sakurai when he said the game would be slower. And casual people don't even need to worry about it. With a frame window of 5 frames, it's gonna be 4 times as hard to pull off as edge-teching, and how often do people do that? And unlike edge-teching, where all you have to predict is that fact that your going to be hit (kind of like in DBZ or Naruto or any just about any fighting game for that matter), with this you need the forthought to predict exactly what you're going to be hit with. And also unlike edge-teching, in which you know exactly when the other guy has to hit you, you must predict when you are going to be hit as well. Because it is so difficult to pull off, you'll only see pros doing it, and then it'll be on rare occasions, and they will be moments of glory. However, putting this in the game with a window of 20 or 30 frames would be a bad idea, and would indeed have all the negative effects you've mentioned.

EDIT: Thx a lot for the criticisms though, and keep them coming. They're helping me to organize my thoughts on this idea.

 

[Devastlian]

Ya know...Mr. Sakurai never said that it'd be slower, just moderated. Granted, it was in response to someone complaining about the game being to fast...There's a lot of stuff in the game that can be measured by their speed so some things could be sped up while others slowed down. Like...maybe some of the twitch-reflex pressing stuff has their windows lengthened but fall speed and running speed is slowwed down. Or something...those were just examples and don't reflect changes I want. <.<

 

[alpha n00b]

Will wavedashing be in Brawl?

I wish to raise is that SSBM Managed to be fun for pathetic noobs that play with items and the like, and totally and completly strategic and technical for those of us that play smash the way it should be played. It was a great balance, on one hand you could have fun playing the game with your friends without being serious, on the other hand you could be like me and train at the game 10+ hours a week with your friends and have a killer time doing so.

What I'm worried about is that Brawl might focus a bit too much on ''fun for noobs'' (Which, really is what sells copies of the game) and not enough on making its highest potential something far beyond the capacity of your average smasher.

I've seen a lot of stupidity posted on these boards about some sort of bizarre idea that Brawl will cause people to stop playing Melee. To those who sport that opinion I say : Melee will never die. Even if Brawl is amazing, NOTHING could ever replace Melee, and I'm 100% sure gatherings / tournaments will still be held for years to come for such a great game.

1st of all: WDing will NOT be in brawl, why? it's an abused glitch.

2nd of all: just how is WDing playing the way the game was meant to?!, n00bs like me are the ones playing the game the way it was meant to!

3rd: selling copies of the game, is making the highest potential you dumb*ss! not everyone has to be a pro smasher to enjoy it!

 

[Blackshadow]

You're just trying to stir the pot again, arent you?

 

[alpha n00b]

You're just trying to stir the pot again, arent you?

i don't stir pot, i smoke it.....

 

[Mosk]

I don't like the new sound effects.

 

[mario-man]

Quit agravating Dylan, you might be sorry.............


Wavedashing IS NOT A GLITCH!!!!!!!(I can't believe we still have to say this!!) It is a manipulation of the physics engine.
The "BLACK HOLE" is a glitch. Falling straight through greatfox on Corneria is a glitch.
WDing is just using the traction of the individual characters to your advantage. If you jump, then airdodge towards the ground at an angle, you will slide a little.
EX. Luigi has the lowest amount of traction. He also has the longest wavedash.
Notice the correlation there?? Less traction, Longer wavedash. WDing is just using the characters traction to your advantage, IT IS NOT A GLITCH!!!!

 

[AxemRed]

1st of all: WDing will NOT be in brawl, why? it's an abused glitch.

2nd of all: just how is WDing playing the way the game was meant to?!, n00bs like me are the ones playing the game the way it was meant to!

3rd: selling copies of the game, is making the highest potential you dumb*ss! not everyone has to be a pro smasher to enjoy it!

Quit agravating Dylan, you might be sorry.............


Wavedashing IS NOT A GLITCH!!!!!!!(I can't believe we still have to say this!!) It is a manipulation of the physics engine.
The "BLACK HOLE" is a glitch. Falling straight through greatfox on Corneria is a glitch.
WDing is just using the traction of the individual characters to your advantage. If you jump, then airdodge towards the ground at an angle, you will slide a little.
EX. Luigi has the lowest amount of traction. He also has the longest wavedash.
Notice the correlation there?? Less traction, Longer wavedash. WDing is just using the characters traction to your advantage, IT IS NOT A GLITCH!!!!

Here we go again . This is number two, I'm going to keep count from here on in.

As for the counter idea, I think if it were implemented you would need to have a limit on the number of counters you can do in a match. Finishing moves would always be countered, since there will always be moves like Falcon's knee, shiek's fair, and jigglypuff's rest that are usually comboed into and therefore easy to predict. Making the window smaller wouldn't make a difference; if people can superwavedash consistently, no window is too small.

 

[GreenKirby]

*starts controversity*

Wavedashing is a glitch!

#3

 

[Adi]

Contreversity-banned

 

[Tera253]

not to be the bubble-burster, but if the extreme minority (is stupid enough to) refuse to buy the game just because of stupid wavedashing, Nintendo won't care. Like any other company, they care about GETTING MONEY... (Tera would too) therefore, they try to please the public so they'll buy games.
and yes, people who wavedash are the minority, since very, very, few of us ever go pro.

~Tera253~

 

[Sensai]

Tera, as much as I agree with your logic that Nintendo only wants money, I also want to believe that that's not all they care about.

No, I KNOW that's not all they care about. This is the country that delayed Twilight Princess for-****-near-ever and has delayed Brawl a few times by now too. They care about quality, also.

Yes - they want money. No - it's not all they care about.

And people...'glitch' is an interpretive word. You can take it many different ways. Sure, it's not a glitch in the actual game, but it is a glitch in the fact that it wasn't meant to happen. (This does not show which way I am about the issue, just stating that the word can be interpreted differently.)

 

[Superstar]

Wavedashing does not immediately improve your skill. You need to learn how to use it.

Its one of those things that has like 1000 uses for it. Some examples....

1) Someone attacks, you reverse wavedash to dodge, then punish the opponent.
2) With Mario, wavedash forward into a jab [standing A]. Follow with C-Sticked downsmash.
3) Shabawd trick, shorthop with Mario, back-air, then landing wavedash. Using it, I managed to wall of pain my brother's Luigi [although he stinks at Luigi].
4) Wavedash to edgehog.
5) Fox's pulse walk trick. Dash at the opponent, wavedash back, dash again, wavedash back again. It is good for tricking the opponent. I managed to do it with Mario.
6) Waveshine
7) Fakeouts
8) Dashdance, then dash at your opponent, on the way there, wavedash back, then strike. A fakeout

Also, about the comment that people who wavedash don't play for fun, and only go for money, the truth it, tournaments can be fun. Also, that's what smashfests are for. Its possible to use the techs and STILL have fun.

When you learn to wavedash, you need to learn uses for it, and if you try it against other people for the first time, you WILL lose.

Also, why does everyone hate the wavedash, there are so many nastier tricks.
Ah, I love this match, look at the part when Brown Mario catches up
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tL_BxpjmBXc

 

[Shadow Calibur]

I'm still trying to avoid the habit of shielding after wavedashing- I think I got the hang of it.

I just want to reiterate my point WAY earlier in this thread- if advanced techs like wavedashing and L-canceling get carried on to Brawl, there's an opportunity to master what you couldn't master. If not, fine. If you trust in your own skills enough to win without techs, then go by those. It's rare to go up against pros and win without techs, but it CAN happen.

Either way, IMO, Smash will still have a competitive edge to it. How sharp it will be will depend on whether advanced techs stay or not.

I don't acknowledge them as glitches, I acknowledge them as strategies.

 

[Red Exodus]

Removing the 'paralyzing' [what the hell is the real term anyway?] effect from airdodging sounds like the first step, 1 air dodge per trip btw.

I think the way stages are set up play a part, maybe if they make a stage that has a tree with branches to allow to gain height [maybe the branches would break after a while], and on the way down you'd have more room to fight in the air than if you just double jump.

Some stages could have jump pads to give you more height as well, but other than those ideas, they'd have to make characters floater, which isn't a good idea IMO.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I'm still trying to avoid the habit of shielding after wavedashing- I think I got the hang of it.

Well, I have one bit of advice : learn how to wavedash with your shield, or without it, at will. Shield dashing is a very, very useful technique, as your shield is out as you keep sliding, so you're like a moving shield, its good for getting to the other side of someone, or tricking them into a shield grab... just a heads up

It's rare to go up against pros and win without techs, but it CAN happen.

Hmm a bit of a sketchy point.. it depends who is going up against these ''pros'' and who these pros are. Let me tell you that unless you yourself are of extremly high calibur and you fight someone like Chudat, or Drephen, etc you WILL be 4 stocked every time. There is no winning against those guys, with or without techs.

Also (just incase anyone didn't know this I'm just trying to be informative, not targeting the quoted poster in specific)

Having perfect tech in competitive smash is a given. I'm one of the intermediate players in my cities community in that I 4 stock weak players, generally win vs people around my skill level more than I lose, and stand a fighting chance against the top players in our power rankings. Not a chance to WIN but a chance to take off 2-3 stocks which is NO easy task.

So when you walk into a smashfest with highly skilled players, it is NOT, I repeat NOT a contest of technical ability, everyone L cancels perfectly, everyone can DO the techniques and apply them.

100% of who wins, and who loses is ALWAYS determined by mindgames, and taking advantage of every chink in your opponents armor you see. Smash is a game about control, once you begin comboing your opponent, no matterwho he is you can keep pushing that combo until you slip up or he gets out, then the mindgames start again and either he or you gets the advantage.

The thing is, the power balance in melee is easy to see with a trained eye (who is in control at the moment) and it shifts quite rapidly, usually every every couple of seconds.

When you start to play with really strong players (and I have been recently) you really FEEL the mindgames, you feel that % and stocks left are IRRELEVANT and that the only thing that will win you the match is control over your opponent, the only way to gain control being mindgames.

Mindgames are almost impossible to describe, there are no preset ''mindgames'' (save dashdancing and the like) or they wouldn't be mindgames, anything you can do to trick your opponent into just that ONE fraction of a second where you can grab him, or attack him is more important than you can begin to imagine before you actually experience it for yourself.

So (from your statement) I see a bit too heavy an Emphasis on tech, having near perfect tech is a given, mindgames are the deciding factor... and you will NEVER out mindgame a ''pro'' if you are not an extremly skilled player yourself.

Either way, IMO, Smash will still have a competitive edge to it. How sharp it will be will depend on whether advanced techs stay or not.

I don't acknowledge them as glitches, I acknowledge them as strategies.

Beautiful way to put it, I respect you highly for this post. Keep up this attitude and practice and you will find yourself to improve at a significant rate

 

[AxemRed]

not to be the bubble-burster, but if the extreme minority (is stupid enough to) refuse to buy the game just because of stupid wavedashing, Nintendo won't care. Like any other company, they care about GETTING MONEY... (Tera would too) therefore, they try to please the public so they'll buy games.
and yes, people who wavedash are the minority, since very, very, few of us ever go pro.

~Tera253~

Umm, wait a sec. This might sound stupid, but why does Nintendo's general philosophy matter? Nintendo isn't developing this game. Sora is. A new dev studio that includes people who have played Smash Bros. as much as, if not more than, we have. And at its head is the creator of the series. Think about what that means for a minute. Sakurai's first two Smash Bros. games were well received, and both developed a competitive community. Based on that, I don't think Sakurai is going to change the game so much that it becomes really easy and unable to develop a competitive following.

Look at the jump between SSB64 and SSBM in terms of 1P difficulty. Very Hard mode with one life on SSB64 pales in comparison to many things in SSBM (Very Hard All-Star or Cruel Melee, for example). Despite being easily accessible to "casual" players, Melee was a hardcore game. There were almost 300 trophies to unlock, 50 event matches, multiple character and stages to unlock, each with a different objective. If Sakurai were to "dumb down" Brawl to the point where there was no competitive depth, this hardcore appeal would probably be lost. L-canceling, short hopping, and fast-falling (probably three of the most fundamental advanced techniques) were in smash 64. They were also in Melee. I just can't see these three being taken out of the game at all.

Finally, I don't think Nintendo is going to be giving Sakurai much input on the project anyway, especially considering how successful his first two games were. On the smash bros. website, Sakurai writes that if he had refused to work on the project, Nintendo probably would have done very little besides adding Wi-fi and a couple of new characters and stages. Why? Nintendo doesn't understand the content, it doesn't understand the inner workings of the games. I think Sakurai's team does. And...that's why I'm not worried.

Wow, that turned out a lot longer than I thought it would be.

 

[Sculelos]

Umm, wait a sec. This might sound stupid, but why does Nintendo's general philosophy matter? Nintendo isn't developing this game. Sora is. A new dev studio that includes people who have played Smash Bros. as much as, if not more than, we have. And at its head is the creator of the series. Think about what that means for a minute. Sakurai's first two Smash Bros. games were well received, and both developed a competitive community. Based on that, I don't think Sakurai is going to change the game so much that it becomes really easy and unable to develop a competitive following.

Look at the jump between SSB64 and SSBM in terms of 1P difficulty. Very Hard mode with one life on SSB64 pales in comparison to many things in SSBM (Very Hard All-Star or Cruel Melee, for example). Despite being easily accessible to "casual" players, Melee was a hardcore game. There were almost 300 trophies to unlock, 50 event matches, multiple character and stages to unlock, each with a different objective. If Sakurai were to "dumb down" Brawl to the point where there was no competitive depth, this hardcore appeal would probably be lost. L-canceling, short hopping, and fast-falling (probably three of the most fundamental advanced techniques) were in smash 64. They were also in Melee. I just can't see these three being taken out of the game at all.

Finally, I don't think Nintendo is going to be giving Sakurai much input on the project anyway, especially considering how successful his first two games were. On the smash bros. website, Sakurai writes that if he had refused to work on the project, Nintendo probably would have done very little besides adding Wi-fi and a couple of new characters and stages. Why? Nintendo doesn't understand the content, it doesn't understand the inner workings of the games. I think Sakurai's team does. And...that's why I'm not worried.

Wow, that turned out a lot longer than I thought it would be.

Yep, exactly why I'm not worried eather, although I'm not an pro by any means I can hold my own agains't most, and I don't understand why any of the techs would be taken out, even wavedashing even though it has limited uses, or maby I'm just not smart enough to apply them.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Mindgames are almost impossible to describe, there are no preset ''mindgames'' (save dashdancing and the like) or they wouldn't be mindgames, anything you can do to trick your opponent into just that ONE fraction of a second where you can grab him, or attack him is more important than you can begin to imagine before you actually experience it for yourself.

So (from your statement) I see a bit too heavy an Emphasis on tech, having near perfect tech is a given, mindgames are the deciding factor... and you will NEVER out mindgame a ''pro'' if you are not an extremly skilled player yourself.

Actually emphasis should be almost exclusively on tech as a beginner, so the player can get to that point where his tech skill is a given. I don't think there's any point trying to outsmart your opponent if you don't have the tech skills to properly punish him for his mistakes. For instance, you're Fox, close to an edge, and you dash forward => wd back and watch as your opponent misses his grab. Then you waveshine => reverse waveshine to edgehog and take the stock. Or you're Captain Falcon and you pull a reverse moonwalk out of a random dash dance to plant a knee in your opponent's face.

The point is that you can't really have mindgames without tech. And if you don't have a proper foundation of technical skills, you won't react fluidly in your matchups because you'll be thinking about wavedashing and SHFFLING and SHL, etc., instead of just using these tactics in their proper place.

Of course, you are correct that once a player becomes competitive tech becomes less significant because everyone is close to the same level. It's the common point of departure for competitive Smash.

 

[JesterBox]

Someone answer me this, What have the people creating Brawl done wrong so far, nothing (except not give us much info) They didn't implement the Wii mote, GOOD CHOICE. You can (pretty much confirmed) use the GC conrtroller, GOOD CHOICE. They are supporting online functionality, GOOD CHOICE. They have people who have played A LOT of smash working on the game, GOOD CHOICE. They have taken suggestions from gamers themselves GOOD CHOICE.

All the things we worry about are things we conjured up, its all just speculation from the unknown. Sure we are all a bit worried, I am too but "we have nothing to fear but fear itself"

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Actually emphasis should be almost exclusively on tech as a beginner, so the player can get to that point where his tech skill is a given. I don't think there's any point trying to outsmart your opponent if you don't have the tech skills to properly punish him for his mistakes. For instance, you're Fox, close to an edge, and you dash forward => wd back and watch as your opponent misses his grab. Then you waveshine => reverse waveshine to edgehog and take the stock. Or you're Captain Falcon and you pull a reverse moonwalk out of a random dash dance to plant a knee in your opponent's face.

The point is that you can't really have mindgames without tech. And if you don't have a proper foundation of technical skills, you won't react fluidly in your matchups because you'll be thinking about wavedashing and SHFFLING and SHL, etc., instead of just using these tactics in their proper place.

Of course, you are correct that once a player becomes competitive tech becomes less significant because everyone is close to the same level. It's the common point of departure for competitive Smash.

I agree 100% I spent months and months perfecting my technical skills, a lot of what I lack as a smasher is combo knowlege which is % specific for a bunch of matches. A few matches like shiek vs peach shiek vs marth shiek vs captain falcon (especially) I know the combos like the back of my hand, other matchups like shiek vs fox I have no idea how to take out fox at -all- hence why Im picking up mario now as Ive found from watching videos that mario fares quite decently against fox, I would definatly not mind maining him for awhile to develop a fox/falco fighter since shiek just doesnt work for me vs them.

But yes, the first part of becoming anywhere near decent in this game is learning your tech, at first you think the ability to perform techs defines a player, common newbie mentalities (Im speaking from PERSONAL experience)

1. Good players can wavedash, wavedashing makes you a good player

False. Anyone can wavedash, it isn't difficult, how well you apply it however does reflect skill, doing it means nothing

2. People win matches (at pro level) by out teching the other opponent (nowadays this stupid view is always followed with bombsoldier videos... ARGH)

False. In a pro match, both players have perfect or near perfect technique, mindgames determine who controls the match.

But as you very well put it, tech comes before mindgames, mindgames are a byproduct of tech. How are you going to confuse your opponent without ninjalike precision with your character of choice? you can't.

Also, if you don't have perfect tech at high competitive level, any tech mistakes you make will be spotted, and you will be punished VERY hard for them. A single missed L cancel can lose you a stock in the blink of an eye.

 

[AxemRed]

Hmm, there is one thing the worries me. Is Nintendo going to let Pokemon Battle Revolution be the only Wi-Fi compatible title for months? My gut instinct tells me no, that they'd probably release Brawl at most a couple of months after Pokemon...but to this end, I have a few questions.

One, wasn't Mario Kart DS one of the first DS Wi-fi titles? Wasn't it the "Wi-Fi launch" title?

Two, how often did DS Wi-Fi compatible games come out after Mario Kart DS?

Three: The past three Fire Emblem games have averaged 5 months for NA localization, which means that the newest Fire Emblem will probably come out by September...right? My point being we don't have a release date anyway.

Four: Q2 just means April-June, right? So theoretically, Brawl could have a late Summer release?

I know it's all speculation anyway, but can anyone answer those questions?

 

[GreenMamba]

Hmm, there is one thing the worries me. Is Nintendo going to let Pokemon Battle Revolution be the only Wi-Fi compatible title for months? My gut instinct tells me no, that they'd probably release Brawl at most a couple of months after Pokemon...but to this end, I have a few questions.

One, wasn't Mario Kart DS one of the first DS Wi-fi titles? Wasn't it the "Wi-Fi launch" title?

Yes, but it was one of two--Tony Hawk's American Sk8land came out the same day, and it was Wi-Fi. Animal Crossing came out no sooner than a few weeks later.

Two, how often did DS Wi-Fi compatible games come out after Mario Kart DS?

I can't give an exact answer, though my best estimation just looking at the titles would be every month to two months at the most.

Three: The past three Fire Emblem games have averaged 5 months for NA localization, which means that the newest Fire Emblem will probably come out by September...right? My point being we don't have a release date anyway.

While it is true that the Fire Emblem games took quite a while to translate and localize, you have to remember two things--Fire Emblem has quite a bit more dialogue and things to localize than Smash does, and Fire Emblem, last I checked anyhow, is quite a bit more popular in Japan than in America, meaning they easily get priority when it comes to a Fire Emblem release.

Smash won't take nearly as much time to translate, and seeing as how quickly we got Melee after Japan did, I wouldn't be too worried about any huge wake period between the releases in the seperate regions.

Four: Q2 just means April-June, right? So theoretically, Brawl could have a late Summer release?

In theory, I suppose.