Where would you put Sonic at on the tiers?

[R4ZE]

I'd like to take a moment to agree with the 2 above posts. I'd also like to point out that sonic is a pretty glitchy character and we all still have a lot to discover about his mechanics.

once people start learning how to recreate the glitches such as the double spring, or the dair cancel,.etc... sonic will only be further enhanced.

Sonic's high learning curve, and the fact that pretty much accross the board he is veiwed as a bad character also attributes to people saying that he is bad.


but as a sonic player, and someone who has a greater-than-noob understanding of the character, he isn't that bad. Now when i play with other characters i miss some of the options i could used while being sonic.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

He's mid-tier, fo sho. He's benefited from almost every single technical discovery made insofar, and is able to punish various things. His biggest problems are low priority and a tough time killing, which, given his ability to tech-chase to hell and back, aren't necessarily HUGE concerns, though they'll keep him from being top tier anytime soon.

I'd put my money more on his tier placement being due to people not knowing how to play him than him being "atrocious", akin to Luigi and CF. Then again, Cali never did experience a good Luigi, did they? D:

don't diss ultraluigi, he may be doing crews with me at ucla, have some respect for the man


and to the people who say the high learning curve is holding sonic back, wario has wuite a high learning curve, and he seems to be either high or top tier on most lists (the ones done by well known people, not by random internet guy #12) sonic may be mid, but unless he gets more representation at tournaments he looks like low because his low priority and generally weak takes away from the rock paper scissors style of competitive play, and leaves you without a strong move to punish grab attempts

 

[Browny]

so what does diddy do better than sonic such that he should be deserving of high tier while sonic low.

diddys KO moves are considerably worse than sonics
their priorities are both relatively bad
his pressure game is strong like sonics, however it can easily be turned against him by anyone who picks up his bananas
sonics recovery is far safer
sonic is heavier
sonic has more powerful pummel + throws

meh, just an example that annoys me a lot. same with squirtle.

 

[da K.I.D.]

So,in other words,if the chaarcter is not use a lot or place high in a trouney,they already suck? I'm not trying to be rude,but that a load of bull**** time 10 if you ask me.But,hey I don't really care.

but some chars. arent used alot could be b/c they arent good chars. its a chicken and the egg scenario
point is.... sonic is not a good character, if you are trying to win a tournament, its best to train sonic for certain opponents and only play him against the ppl that your best with him against, like the psy brats, ganon, dk, ike, marth and pikmin, to name a few.
also just b/c he is low tier doesnt mean we should use that as an arguing point. thats kind of douchy to be like, "ohhhh, youz a nub, cuz i beet yuu wid da sonic" just play your char. be your best with him, and have a counterpick ready for his counter picks

luigi has an advantage over him, well thats where my standing CG comes into play.
sonics having puffball troubles, that little dancing fetus can eat some aura.

thats how i do it, and its worked so far

 

[da K.I.D.]

so what does diddy do better than sonic such that he should be deserving of high tier while sonic low.

diddys KO moves are considerably worse than sonics
their priorities are both relatively bad
his pressure game is strong like sonics, however it can easily be turned against him by anyone who picks up his bananas
sonics recovery is far safer
sonic is heavier
sonic has more powerful pummel + throws

meh, just an example that annoys me a lot. same with squirtle.

i am not a diddy main, nor do i claim or pretend to be, but this is what my experience tells me...

i think this entire post is incorrect, diddy's f-smash and b- air kill about the same as sonics but are faster and his f-air kills and down smash is faster
diddys priority is pretty decent, at least its better than sonics
its not as easy as it looks to turn the bananas against him since if you take the time to grab one, hes holding one too most likely and since the guy plays diddy hes proly better at using them than you.
yes sonics recovery is better, but that is less relavent than saying sonic is better b/c he runs faster. diddys recovery is actually very similar and very easy to return with for anyone with experience witht the char.
as far as weight goes, they are about the same.
sonics throw are setups for other hits while diddy's are more for positioning and getting ready for edgeguarding, they arent bettter or worse, just different.

that is why diddy is a better char than sonic and because if diddy's ever in trouble, DK will bust in and super punch ppl who try to hurt his lil buddy

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Sonic doesn't lack kill moves. He lacks instakill moves. Learn to chase off the edge.

With regular jump, double jump, run off the edge, spinshot, Spindash jump, and Spindash doublejump you can cover almost any return trajectory. You should be using Bair, Fsmash, Bthrow and Dsmash to get them off the stage and then leave the stage and Fair to give the little push you need to kill them. Sonic is capable of killing at ridiculously low percents on plenty of characters.

 

[Browny]

i am not a diddy main, nor do i claim or pretend to be, but this is what my experience tells me...

i think this entire post is incorrect, diddy's f-smash and b- air kill about the same as sonics but are faster and his f-air kills and down smash is faster
diddys priority is pretty decent, at least its better than sonics
its not as easy as it looks to turn the bananas against him since if you take the time to grab one, hes holding one too most likely and since the guy plays diddy hes proly better at using them than you.
yes sonics recovery is better, but that is less relavent than saying sonic is better b/c he runs faster. diddys recovery is actually very similar and very easy to return with for anyone with experience witht the char.
as far as weight goes, they are about the same.
sonics throw are setups for other hits while diddy's are more for positioning and getting ready for edgeguarding, they arent bettter or worse, just different.

that is why diddy is a better char than sonic and because if diddy's ever in trouble, DK will bust in and super punch ppl who try to hurt his lil buddy

ive done the testing;

Diddys fsmash and dsmash are both weaker. his dsmashes range isnt even worth mentioning, and stutter stepping gives sonic bigger range on his fsmash
his f-air and b-air are both weaker than sonics b-air. once again slightly faster, but sonics have much bigger hitbox and range.

diddys recovery is dismal in comparison. not only can it be edgehogged, it also leaves him defenseless and punishable against anyone fast. its good, but the again, vast majority of the cast have fantastic recoveries. and i fail to see how diddys throw are more for positioning and edgeguarding. sonics dthrow sends enemies below the stage and bthrow has lethal knockback to set up for edgeguarding, and you can tech chase from his dthrow into more grabs or a smash attack if you have very good reflexes.

 

[ShadowLink84]

don't diss ultraluigi, he may be doing crews with me at ucla, have some respect for the man

A joke is a joke. Don't take it so seriously.

and to the people who say the high learning curve is holding sonic back, wario has wuite a high learning curve, and he seems to be either high or top tier on most lists (the ones done by well known people, not by random internet guy #12) sonic may be mid, but unless he gets more representation at tournaments he looks like low because his low priority and generally weak takes away from the rock paper scissors style of competitive play, and leaves you without a strong move to punish grab attempts

Wario has a high learning curve?
I don't know I would ahve to disagree. I find him much more easy to figure out than Sonic.
Only thing I have to say is bad about wario is his Dsmash.
mainly since he'll stay spinning on the ground meaning if someone shields they can smash you a good one.

 

[MarKO X]

While I personally believe that Sonic is the best character in the game, he won't be high. However, because there are enough dedicated people who have won big tourneys with the hedgehog, he won't be low either. He'll be mid, and he'll stay there happily unless someone finds some big glitch that ups his priority or his power.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

don't diss ultraluigi, he may be doing crews with me at ucla, have some respect for the man

Shadow, he's right. You don't diss on Ultra. That guy is too cool. I didn't know he was Cali, though. Thought he was midwest. He's not on Ka Master or SNSG's level, but I'll be ****ed if he's not a badass that actually LOOKS like Luigi. Ultra.

 

[R4ZE]

don't even compare sonic and wario.... that is just rediculous seriously...

everywhere wario is weak, sonic strong and vice versa.



learning curve? are you kidding me.. you don't have to combo, u dont have to learn any advanced techniqueds, he has really good priority, and SA fsmash, insane airial DI which allows him to spam airials like jiggly, and his attacks linger like g&w

meanwhile sonic is over here have to time thigns between attacks, and chain together 3 attacks to deal wairo's equivalent of one....

not to mention chase people off the edge to kill..




and im not saying wario has it easier, because hoenstly sonic has way more speed and recovery to work with.. but don't ever tell me wario is as hard to learn as sonic.


or how about, get the same person that has never played the game to play against another kid once as sonic, and once as wario... and see which character he does better with.

hell, even use a character that sonic is good against. I'd bet anything that any noob would do better with wario.

 

[MarKO X]

or how about, get the same person that has never played the game to play against another kid once as sonic, and once as wario... and see which character he does better with.

hell, even use a character that sonic is good against. I'd bet anything that any noob would do better with wario.

I hate this bull**** theory.

Truth is, the Sonic noob will lose to the Wario noob because the Sonic noob will fail at controlling Sonic's speed.

And yes, even if Sonic is controlled, the Wario will send Sonic packing.

 

[Boxob]

Honestly. Call me a noob if you'd like but I think in maybe two years time sonic will be above average at the very least. He's the fatest runner, don't get hit. I'm not joking. If you play smart, tech chasing when you can, running away when it's time, in the end, they'll have taken all the damage and you might take only a couple hits.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Honestly. Call me a noob if you'd like but I think in maybe two years time sonic will be above average at the very least. He's the fatest runner, don't get hit. I'm not joking. If you play smart, tech chasing when you can, running away when it's time, in the end, they'll have taken all the damage and you might take only a couple hits.

Actually that's kind of the future I see for Sonic too. Sonic's will have every matchup memorized for the most part.

Ask ANY Melee Falcon main what percent a Spacie can be Uthrowed to Fsmashed. Or Dthrowed to SHKnee.

Once people have hitstun and stuff memorized Sonic SHOULD be a force to be reckoned with. Spacing IS LAW!

 

[R4ZE]

Well if your like me, I see myself make mistakes quite often with sonic, and i know once i master my own game, those mistakes wont be there, and thus i will be a LOT better.


somtimes 1 or 2 mistakes with sonic lead to a death.

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

And they say my threads sucks, yeah right:D. Anyways, saying Wario is harder than Sonic is an huge understatement. But my point is that Sonic is not the best character in the game or the worst. He's an okay character that make a sloid mid-tier.

And bigfoot your cool, but I have to do this...

Warlock kick!!!!!! And Warlock Punch!!!!!! LOL

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Actually that's kind of the future I see for Sonic too. Sonic's will have every matchup memorized for the most part.

Ask ANY Melee Falcon main what percent a Spacie can be Uthrowed to Fsmashed. Or Dthrowed to SHKnee.

Once people have hitstun and stuff memorized Sonic SHOULD be a force to be reckoned with. Spacing IS LAW!

Sonic lacks the knee though Curse his noodley legs!

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Sonic's legs are god. Notice how all his best attacks use them. Seriously, if he fought with them more, he'd be top tier.

 

[Dragonbreath]

Sonic's legs are god. Notice how all his best attacks use them. Seriously, if he fought with them more, he'd be top tier.

He needs to hang out with Regal. Chun Li's allergic to animals.

Aside from the aforementioned, I think Sonic's game will improve as new advanced techs are discovered. That, and I've noticed some odd priority instances of some of his spinning attacks. Once, I went right through Metaknight's Rapid A with a homing attack, and Nair has some invincibility frames hidden in there somewhere. Sonic's low-bottom right now, but as long as his fanbase stays loyal, he will rise. Eventually.

...Hmm...I wonder if there's a metaphor in there...

 

[FrostByte]

Difference is that Regal's hands can obliterate steel bars and Sonic's can't. I'm picturing that wind-up punch now.

 

[SonicLucario]

He needs to hang out with Regal. Chun Li's allergic to animals.

Aside from the aforementioned, I think Sonic's game will improve as new advanced techs are discovered. That, and I've noticed some odd priority instances of some of his spinning attacks. Once, I went right through Metaknight's Rapid A with a homing attack, and Nair has some invincibility frames hidden in there somewhere. Sonic's low-bottom right now, but as long as his fanbase stays loyal, he will rise. Eventually.

...Hmm...I wonder if there's a metaphor in there...

You're right about that low-bottom part.I wonder what the metaphor is?

 

[Shadow5YA]

If me must try to guage a character's potential, then I'd say Sonic is middle tier. His lack of projectiles, average power, and low priority keep him from being high tier, but his speed, good recovery, aerials with little lag, grabbing game, and edgeguarding game make him far from being the worst character.

But being middle tier in Brawl isn't nearly as bad as being middle tier in Melee. Because this game is far more balanced, it's possible to win with weaker characters, where as in Melee 95% of all big tournaments are won using Marth, Fox, or Sheik. The 95% is an arbitrary statistic, but you get my point nonetheless.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

umm, most people are putting pt, and therefore squirtle, low on tier placements, but your diddy comparison was just plain wrong.

diddy has absolutely no lag on nearly all of his attacks, his bair can be used as a wall of pain, and he is better at gimping than sonic, and probably every other character in the game as well.

his dsmash kills faster than both sonics fsmash and his dsmash when not diminished, and it comes out faster, and his fsmash comes out faster and does more damage than sonics, making it available option for damage stacking, on top of this, his fair kills faster than sonics bair when not dimiminished

diddy has a very strong forward throw that can kill early, as well as more damaging throws with down/ back throw, and diddy is physically impossible to punish out of shield because his running attack combos into every move he has without lag, so no, sonic does not have better throws/pummels

what you only mentioned as a downside, which is what truly sets him apart, is his bananas, which prolong combos, take away your opponents ability to roll, which, when combined with diddy constant barrage of hits against shields, make it physically impossible to defend against diddy, and, set up kill moves. glidetossed banana to stutter stepped fsmash is a free kill, it would be like sonic having the ability to hold people in place while he sets up his forward smash.

also, diddys priority is above average on most attacks, his attacks come out faster, and his recovery goes farther (and if you know how to use it is not dangerous at all)

that was a bad example dj

and to the people who do not think wario has a high learning curve, the things that push him past average and into great all need exclusive wario experience, for instance, I only know two wario players that can nair into a bite for wariocide without the opponent being able to escape, very few players can use the devastating 1:00 waft effectively, and i have never met a good wario player that hasn't been maining him since brawls release, i think i played one decent one that switched somewhat early on, but all the good players know that character inside and out, and they are still finding new tricks that make him better. he is one of the few characters that you cannot pick up and play well in a week

 

[itsthebigfoot]

And they say my threads sucks, yeah right:D. Anyways, saying Wario is harder than Sonic is an huge understatement. But my point is that Sonic is not the best character in the game or the worst. He's an okay character that make a sloid mid-tier.

And bigfoot your cool, but I have to do this...

Warlock kick!!!!!! And Warlock Punch!!!!!! LOL

i never said harder, i just said he had a high learning curve

 

[Browny]

Please for the love of god at least test it yourself if you dont believe me before stating anything as a fact.

diddy's dsmash and fsmash are both weaker with knockback, and have less range. FACT
his f-air and b-air are weaker than sonics b-air. FACT
Sonic has the strongest pummel + throw combo in the game, second only to Dedede. FACT

they may be faster, but you can not possibly argue with the strengths of sonics attacks. it really is as easy as putting on brawl and testing it for yourself.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Please for the love of god at least test it yourself if you dont believe me before stating anything as a fact.

diddy's dsmash and fsmash are both weaker with knockback, and have less range. FACT

well, i have died by diddys dsmash faster than i have died by sonics, so maybe diddy just has the ability to set it up better also note that you are comparing sonic,a mid weight, to diddy, a lightweight

his f-air and b-air are weaker than sonics b-air. FACT

diddys bair is not meant to kill, however, a sweetspotted fair does knock back more, you just have to time it right, don't declare it as fact because you tried it in training mode

Sonic has the strongest pummel + throw combo in the game, second only to Dedede. FACT

what, pray tell, is this? if you're talking about the downthrow tech chase, G&W has a better one because he can go from throw to smash without having to read the opponents tech, if you are talking about pummeling shields than diddy is by and far one of the best, up there with gdubs, dk, wario, snake, and metaknight at pummeling the crap out of bad shield. pummel to grab combo does not really make sense, because if you pummel a shield, the entire point is to allow yourself to hit without grabbing. unless you are talking about grabbing then hitting a repeatedly to rack up damage, which is not really something to brag about, everyones a in a grab does the same amount, and if you can string it together with throws, thats just a chaingrab, a lot of people have those

 

[Browny]

what, pray tell, is this? if you're talking about the downthrow tech chase, G&W has a better one because he can go from throw to smash without having to read the opponents tech, if you are talking about pummeling shields than diddy is by and far one of the best, up there with gdubs, dk, wario, snake, and metaknight at pummeling the crap out of bad shield. pummel to grab combo does not really make sense, because if you pummel a shield, the entire point is to allow yourself to hit without grabbing. unless you are talking about grabbing then hitting a repeatedly to rack up damage, which is not really something to brag about, everyones a in a grab does the same amount, and if you can string it together with throws, thats just a chaingrab, a lot of people have those

no, everyones grabs and pummels are very different. Only a few characters get 3% per hit like Zelda, Dedede and sonic. however sonics pummel is faster than zeldas, but the same as dededes. many other characters have pummels that do 2%, they attack faster but not fast enough to outdamage a 3% one. and sonics upthrow does 12%. very few characters have a throw that strong. only dededes bthrow doing 16 does more.

when youve got someone like sonic who is arguably the best grabber in the game since his shield-grab while dashing covers about 1/4 of FD (olimars is safe, but hes no where near fast enough to punish missed attacks like pikachus dsmash, marths tilts etc) mixed with the strongest pummel and second most damaging throw, it is something worth bragging about.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Sonic lacks the knee though Curse his noodley legs!

Yeah but he has a lot of moves that send at a low trajectory. They just aren't Knee worthy. (Then again what is?)

His moves also seem to send the opponents off the stage in a position that gives Sonic plenty of time to plan his move. Just study the opponents position and you can Fair them at a low trajectory sending them to the bottom corner of the stage. It's almost IMPOSSIBLE to recover from there. And if they do Bair spike.

I only really play online so I can't tell how effective this will be but I've seen nearly impossible to avoid gimps from as low as 60 percent. If they DO avoid them they just kill themselves.

If we can just HARNESS that ability. Then Sonic will be a ****** machine.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

/Harnesses

 

[Tenki]

Terios, did you figure out how to do the F-air semispike? Or are you just talking about its normal low trajectory that goes a little upwards but mostly horizontally?

Sonic lacks the knee though Curse his noodley legs!

Spoiler

I thought you said noodley appendage for a second and I loled on the inside;;

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

No just the normal trajectory. FSM hasn't blessed me. T_T I didn't even know it HAD a semispike.


But you make a Bair or Fair send them at a low trajectory and they are FORCED to recover fairly low. You can just do it again by running off. So you have to send them flying at a low trajectory twice. Still effective.

I've Bthrowed them at 20%. Had them try to recover low. Taunting me about no spike. Then I just run off and Fair them away. Then they died.

Think of it as a more effective Bair edgeguard.

 

[Digital Angel]

If you guys want Sonic to raise more in tiers advocating for Corneria to be used as a counterpick would be a good start. Sonic is amazing at ceiling kills and Corneria's ceiling is one of the lowest.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

DJ, having played Diddy for a while, I can safely say that he is a character that relies on your opponent not knowing his tricks. If they do, he's still good, but nowhere near as good as most everyone is claiming he is. Also, his fthrow is horribly hyped about being able to KO. That **** can't KO until after 180 if the opponent knows how to DI. It sets up decently for edgeguarding, but, personally, I prefer it for damage building, since it IS his most powerful throw.

I forgot what I was going to say next, due to the awesome power of Fark's boob thread.

 

[volbound1700]

Sonic is not good under tournament (No item, no FS rules) but if you get items he improves a lot and he is one of the best characters in SSE (although SSE isn't too difficult at times)

 

[InterimOfZeal]

...

Wow.

Just... wow.

 

[memphischains]

...

Wow.

Just... wow.

Let it go, let it go, he looks kind of confused.
He hasn't been here in awhile apperently

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Volbound is the new KASR!